On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 17:54:39 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Uffe Bærentsen" wrote in message
...
Den 15-02-2013 05:32, skrev:

You ought to try to get parts for ANYTHING in places like Zambia
and
Burkina Faso.

Sounds like you have seen most of what a car can throw at you.
Uffe

The PBS show on Pharaoh's Chariot showed a lot of experimental metal
and woodworking in Egyptian street shops, with equipment similar to my
hobby shop or that of the architectural door-maker I helped build a
steam bender.

The old South Bend booklets describe how to make and recondition
automotive pistons, valves and electric motors. Doesn't the less
developed world have such small general repair shops available?
Iron-working in central Africa dates from many centuries BC.

I've asked engineers from Asia and Africa about this, but it seems
they had all avoided such demeaning manual skills if they were smart
and rich enough to get into a foreign university.

That, in a nutshell, is the problem. I have not been into the
Republic of South Africa - perhaps the sanctions made that happen
there - but in Zambia in the '70s there was not a lot of that evident.
Some in Burkina in 2000. But not like Cuba or India, or Cassablanca

wrote:

On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 00:32:41 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

It was titled as a '73 model, but your description sounds like it. I
bought a new '83 Toyota pickup. I had it seven months when a woman
crossed the center line & hit me head on and spun me counter clockwise.
My head pushed the glass out of the back of the cab, and I bent the
steering column to the dash as I went sideways. It was the only time I
ever drove that truck without a seatbelt, and was told that I would have
been dead if I was wearing it. My dad had a motorhome built on a Toyota
chassis. It caught fire and burnt to the ground before a firetruck
could get there. I haven't had good luck with any Toyota. Pontiac,
Chevy, GMC & Dodge have never disappointed me. Some cost me less than
$100 a year to own & maintain. That Toyota pickup cost me $3000 for
seven months.
Interesting.
I have owned Toyota, Peugeot, VW, Renault, Ford GM, Chrysler,AMC,
Austin/Morris, Vauxhaul and Mitsu****ty. In my immediate family you
can add Honda, Nissan, Mazda, Sunbeam/rootes, Rover, and likely a few
I've missed.

As you may have surmised, I was not impressed with the Mitsu product.

The last GM was quite possibly the most problematic vehicle I've ever
owned - and I know my Dad had more trouble with his one GMC pickup
than with any two of his other vehcles. Just stupid stuff - like the
box inner fenderwells being too wide, so they rubbed on the tires
untill, after being brushed off by the dealer service manager for
about 6 months there was a service bulletin/recall to jack the
fenderwells in - The hanger bearing on the driveshaft squeaked and was
supposedly replaced 3 times by the local dealer - then failed on a
trip to Saskatchewan, where the dealer stated the bearing had NEVER
been removed and had been oiled instead - it blew the muffler off
about every 4000 miles if he didn't have the points changed at about
3000 (I later found the ground strap to the breaker plate had never
been installed) and a fan blade that made an unexpected exit from the
engine compartment trough the hood. Now that was back in 1968 IIRC.


The last GM vehicle I had was a 79 Chevy Malibu. It was a retired
Seriff's cursier with 123,000 miles when I bought it for $500. I drove
it 96,000 miles before I sold it. The only failure in that five years
was the starter solinoid. I was busy with a Telethon, so I called the
dealer to fix it. The SOB replace the starter instead of the solenoid,
and used an inpact wrench on the mounting bolts. They twisted one off,
but didn't tell me. A week later I am a hour away from home, it is one
AM and the starter just spins because it has rotated away from the
flywheel on the one bolt.



My Pontiac TransSport just never did work 100% - and kept giving me
reasons to dislike it on a regular basis - as much as I really wanted
to like the thing.


I had a '63 Catalina convertible. My first car. It ran great, and
other than a tuneup, I put a full set of new tires on it. That was
followed by a '66 GTO that was bought with a blown engine from an idiot
who took it to a race track and tried to put his foot through the floor.
A spun crank, and two connecting rods were damaged. I had a spare
crank, bought two rods and put it back together. I replaced the two
speed auto with a three, which was too bigh for the transmission oil
cooler so I lost a couple used transmissions. Later I had an 'Olds
Starfire' which was a compact Pontiac with different trim. The head
cracked at 125,000 miles. I had it remanufactured, and drove it for
several more years until a drunk ran out of the road and pushed it into
my '73 Chevy stepvan. She totaled her car, my car and did $200 damage
to the Stepvan. I bought a beat up '68 GMC handyvan when I got out of
the service for a work truck. Beat to death, and was painted with
orange acrylic by a house painter. It was a retired 'Stanley Steemer'
van, and he painted over all those huge signs. I drove it for about
four years before the engine blew. I was told it was an old taxicab
engine. He had shoehorned a Chevy 283 into the thong becaus ehe didn't
like the 292 it had when he bought it. The guy was strange.

I owned a 79 Dodge RAM. It had been in storage for years without
being started. It was gummed up, beat up, and pretty sad looking, but it
was $500 and I needed a truck. I cleaned the old plugs, and managed to
get it to fire up on two cylinders. I let it idle for 15 minutes,
coughing, smoking & shaking as two more started firing.
I drove it for a couple days, and the other two were working, so I gave
it a tuneup. I drove that truck for five years. The 97 Dakota I have
now I've had over five years. It was $2,800. The crap clearcoat is
peeling, and it has other problems, but it still runs and is safe.


The only new vehicle I owned was the '83 Toyota pickup. It lasted
seven months.


Dad's heavy half 1980? Toyota pickup had a wooden barn built on the
back to carry his electrical tools and supplies and virtually NEVER
had less than 2 tons on it - and he flogged the living daylights out
of it. The young fellows working with him on the job called him
"swervin' Mervin" and in 6 years he replaced one front wheel bearing
and one rear wheel bearing, and I think 2 sets of brakes and tires.
Absolutely NO other repairs. Anything that put up with Dad's use as a
truck that well was a tough little truck.

Other than the Aerostar body rust, I've been pretty happy with my
Fords - currently have 2 again. My used Chryslers have usually treated
me pretty well - the only new vehicle I ever owned was 1 '76
Ramcharger, and initial quality was AWFULL. Door adjustment so bad it
leaked when it rained - and after the dealer re-adjusted it a pencip
dropped on the floor would land on the ground - and the tailgate fell
off on my foot the first time I opened it. Terrible dealer PDI and
service. I and my kid brother did all the body adjustments, I
recalibrated the carb, and it was a pretty decent truck when I
unloaded it a year and a half later - at a significant financial cost.

We rallied the 72 R12 Renault for 3 years and never broke it.
The '67 Peugeot 204 was I guess typical of the breed. Not terribly
reliable, but unknown 5 year history before I ended up with it - and
central Africa is not easy on cars. The '61 mini was - well - British.
And it had 196,000 miles on it when I bought it for $60. What can I
say. The 1972 Vauxhall HC was a surprisingly good and reliable car.
Sold as a Pontiac Firenza up here - and the joke was "any f'renz a
yours ain't fi'renz a mine". If you treated it like a british car
instead of a Pontiac, it was fine. (open the hood and fondle it's nuts
every week or so)

Den 16-02-2013 07:11, skrev:

Sounds like you have seen most of what a car can throw at you.
And those are just the highlights of the last 46 years. - and not
including any of the customer vehicle issues in my life in the trade
(about 25 years) in Canada -----

Saw one funny thing on some Chevy's a while back (1995/1996).
We were told they were built in Canada and that was the reason for the
all out metric tooling and threads on those.
Gave us a hard time since all our tooling was imperial.
Do you know if that could be true?

It was this model

http://www.easyautosales.com/used-ca...-84353930.html

only line trucks with toolboxes on the side of the bed.


--
Uffe

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 17:54:39 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
I've asked engineers from Asia and Africa about this, but it seems
they had all avoided such demeaning manual skills if they were smart
and rich enough to get into a foreign university.


That, in a nutshell, is the problem. I have not been into the
Republic of South Africa - perhaps the sanctions made that happen
there - but in Zambia in the '70s there was not a lot of that
evident.
Some in Burkina in 2000. But not like Cuba or India, or Cassablanca

Old African hunting books tell of having to send damaged rifles back
to England to be repaired by craftsmen who filed and scraped the new
part to fit by hand, using candle flame soot to judge their
progress. I've fitted someone's wobbly scope base to the receiver at
the range by scraping it with broken glass off the ground and checking
the contact area with soot from a Bic.

On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 15:15:43 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 16-02-2013 07:11, skrev:

Sounds like you have seen most of what a car can throw at you.
And those are just the highlights of the last 46 years. - and not
including any of the customer vehicle issues in my life in the trade
(about 25 years) in Canada -----

Saw one funny thing on some Chevy's a while back (1995/1996).
We were told they were built in Canada and that was the reason for the
all out metric tooling and threads on those.
Gave us a hard time since all our tooling was imperial.
Do you know if that could be true?

It was this model

http://www.easyautosales.com/used-ca...-84353930.html

only line trucks with toolboxes on the side of the bed.
Made in Oshawa Ontario. Vehicles of that vintage were *******ized
metric. Some parts were imperial - because they came from the USA.
Some were metric - but not metric standard. For example, in place of
5/16" bolts they used 8mm - but 8mm SHOULD have 12 mm heads - they
used 13 because it was "close enough" to 1/2" that 1/2" wrenches would
"sorta" fit. Same with 1/4". Replaced with 6mm - which should have
10mm heads - but they used 11mm because a 7/16" wrench would "sorta"
fit. So some redneck shadetree mechanic would try to force a 1/4 unf
or 5/16 unf bolt into the hole, or nut onto the stud, and bad things
started happening real fast. Not bad on a new vehicle where the
"metric" bolts had a green colour to them - but after about 5
years?????

On 2/16/2013 8:15 AM, Uffe Bærentsen wrote:
Den 16-02-2013 07:11, skrev:
....


Saw one funny thing on some Chevy's a while back (1995/1996).
We were told they were built in Canada and that was the reason for the
all out metric tooling and threads on those.
Gave us a hard time since all our tooling was imperial.
Do you know if that could be true?
....

Began 10 yr or so before that--and all three US manufacturers (GM, Ford,
Chrysler) did the same thing and didn't matter about whether were US- or
Canadian built--they were all the same across models for any given year.

I've just found as recent as 2003 Buick LeSabre still has some SAE on a
couple of the brackets on the belt tensioner assembly, the structural
portion of which serves as a transition passageway for heater coolant on
the 3800 V6 (and, I presume the various other incarnations of it as well).

The stupid plastic elbows w/ o-ring seals that fit between the block and
the tensioner assembly had cracked; discovered it while changing them
out. Why at this late date there's anything that's not metric is beyond
me, but so help me, one set was exactly such that only an SAE (Imperial)
tool would fit.

It basically all began when the Common Market stuff got strong enough to
demand that imports have at least X% metric in order to export--up until
then US was dominant-enough could just thumb nose at individual
countries[1]. I'm sure there were all kinds of negotiated conditions in
the economic agreements of the time but I've never looked into trying to
actually discover the details thereof...

[1] We Yanks, of course, thought it was totally stupid (and most still
do if one judges by the quickness w/ which it has taken hold (or not) in
general use)...

--

On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 14:31:17 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 2/16/2013 8:15 AM, Uffe Bærentsen wrote:
Den 16-02-2013 07:11, skrev:
...


Saw one funny thing on some Chevy's a while back (1995/1996).
We were told they were built in Canada and that was the reason for the
all out metric tooling and threads on those.
Gave us a hard time since all our tooling was imperial.
Do you know if that could be true?
...

Began 10 yr or so before that--and all three US manufacturers (GM, Ford,
Chrysler) did the same thing and didn't matter about whether were US- or
Canadian built--they were all the same across models for any given year.

I've just found as recent as 2003 Buick LeSabre still has some SAE on a
couple of the brackets on the belt tensioner assembly, the structural
portion of which serves as a transition passageway for heater coolant on
the 3800 V6 (and, I presume the various other incarnations of it as well).

The stupid plastic elbows w/ o-ring seals that fit between the block and
the tensioner assembly had cracked; discovered it while changing them
out. Why at this late date there's anything that's not metric is beyond
me, but so help me, one set was exactly such that only an SAE (Imperial)
tool would fit.

It basically all began when the Common Market stuff got strong enough to
demand that imports have at least X% metric in order to export--up until
then US was dominant-enough could just thumb nose at individual
countries[1]. I'm sure there were all kinds of negotiated conditions in
the economic agreements of the time but I've never looked into trying to
actually discover the details thereof...

But what the heck were we exporting then? I saw a Corvette in Paris
once, but that was about it.

I may have a better answer for which parts vendors (that's where the
SAE fasteners are coming from) haven't converted yet, and why. There
is no money in it for me now so I'm not going through that hassle of
penetrating the Tier 1/ Tier 2 press departments. But something is
coming up, for which I'll be looking into it.


[1] We Yanks, of course, thought it was totally stupid (and most still
do if one judges by the quickness w/ which it has taken hold (or not) in
general use)...

The cost benefits are still a mixed bag. Our annoyance is not a
factor. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

Den 16-02-2013 18:35, skrev:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 15:15:43 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 16-02-2013 07:11, skrev:

Sounds like you have seen most of what a car can throw at you.
And those are just the highlights of the last 46 years. - and not
including any of the customer vehicle issues in my life in the trade
(about 25 years) in Canada -----

Saw one funny thing on some Chevy's a while back (1995/1996).
We were told they were built in Canada and that was the reason for the
all out metric tooling and threads on those.
Gave us a hard time since all our tooling was imperial.
Do you know if that could be true?

It was this model

http://www.easyautosales.com/used-ca...-84353930.html

only line trucks with toolboxes on the side of the bed.
Made in Oshawa Ontario. Vehicles of that vintage were *******ized
metric. Some parts were imperial - because they came from the USA.
Some were metric - but not metric standard. For example, in place of
5/16" bolts they used 8mm - but 8mm SHOULD have 12 mm heads - they
used 13 because it was "close enough" to 1/2" that 1/2" wrenches would
"sorta" fit. Same with 1/4". Replaced with 6mm - which should have
10mm heads - but they used 11mm because a 7/16" wrench would "sorta"
fit. So some redneck shadetree mechanic would try to force a 1/4 unf
or 5/16 unf bolt into the hole, or nut onto the stud, and bad things
started happening real fast. Not bad on a new vehicle where the
"metric" bolts had a green colour to them - but after about 5
years?????

Was stuck with several of those *******s in a location were it was
difficult to get supplies. A 1/2" was simply not allowed if it should be
a 13mm. Rather park the vehicle for the time it took to get the right
spanner.
Standard sizes on spanners for metrical nuts a (thread/spanner)
6mm/10mm 8mm/13mm 10mm/17mm 12mm/19mm
So my guess would be that they used 12mm heads.



--
Uffe

On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 22:36:19 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 16-02-2013 18:35, skrev:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 15:15:43 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 16-02-2013 07:11, skrev:

Sounds like you have seen most of what a car can throw at you.
And those are just the highlights of the last 46 years. - and not
including any of the customer vehicle issues in my life in the trade
(about 25 years) in Canada -----

Saw one funny thing on some Chevy's a while back (1995/1996).
We were told they were built in Canada and that was the reason for the
all out metric tooling and threads on those.
Gave us a hard time since all our tooling was imperial.
Do you know if that could be true?

It was this model

http://www.easyautosales.com/used-ca...-84353930.html

only line trucks with toolboxes on the side of the bed.
Made in Oshawa Ontario. Vehicles of that vintage were *******ized
metric. Some parts were imperial - because they came from the USA.
Some were metric - but not metric standard. For example, in place of
5/16" bolts they used 8mm - but 8mm SHOULD have 12 mm heads - they
used 13 because it was "close enough" to 1/2" that 1/2" wrenches would
"sorta" fit. Same with 1/4". Replaced with 6mm - which should have
10mm heads - but they used 11mm because a 7/16" wrench would "sorta"
fit. So some redneck shadetree mechanic would try to force a 1/4 unf
or 5/16 unf bolt into the hole, or nut onto the stud, and bad things
started happening real fast. Not bad on a new vehicle where the
"metric" bolts had a green colour to them - but after about 5
years?????

Was stuck with several of those *******s in a location were it was
difficult to get supplies. A 1/2" was simply not allowed if it should be
a 13mm. Rather park the vehicle for the time it took to get the right
spanner.
Standard sizes on spanners for metrical nuts a (thread/spanner)
6mm/10mm 8mm/13mm 10mm/17mm 12mm/19mm
So my guess would be that they used 12mm heads.
You have it mixed up. Standard on an 8 is 12, everywhere in the world
except north america.

On 16/02/13 22:37, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 22:36:19 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 16-02-2013 18:35, skrev:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 15:15:43 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 16-02-2013 07:11, skrev:

Sounds like you have seen most of what a car can throw at you.
And those are just the highlights of the last 46 years. - and not
including any of the customer vehicle issues in my life in the trade
(about 25 years) in Canada -----
Saw one funny thing on some Chevy's a while back (1995/1996).
We were told they were built in Canada and that was the reason for the
all out metric tooling and threads on those.
Gave us a hard time since all our tooling was imperial.
Do you know if that could be true?

It was this model

http://www.easyautosales.com/used-ca...-84353930.html

only line trucks with toolboxes on the side of the bed.
Made in Oshawa Ontario. Vehicles of that vintage were *******ized
metric. Some parts were imperial - because they came from the USA.
Some were metric - but not metric standard. For example, in place of
5/16" bolts they used 8mm - but 8mm SHOULD have 12 mm heads - they
used 13 because it was "close enough" to 1/2" that 1/2" wrenches would
"sorta" fit. Same with 1/4". Replaced with 6mm - which should have
10mm heads - but they used 11mm because a 7/16" wrench would "sorta"
fit. So some redneck shadetree mechanic would try to force a 1/4 unf
or 5/16 unf bolt into the hole, or nut onto the stud, and bad things
started happening real fast. Not bad on a new vehicle where the
"metric" bolts had a green colour to them - but after about 5
years?????
Was stuck with several of those *******s in a location were it was
difficult to get supplies. A 1/2" was simply not allowed if it should be
a 13mm. Rather park the vehicle for the time it took to get the right
spanner.
Standard sizes on spanners for metrical nuts a (thread/spanner)
6mm/10mm 8mm/13mm 10mm/17mm 12mm/19mm
So my guess would be that they used 12mm heads.
You have it mixed up. Standard on an 8 is 12, everywhere in the world
except north america.
I must have been buying US metric bolts then for the last 20+ years in
the UK as all the M8 hex fasteners I buy have 13mm AF heads. See

http://www.fairburyfastener.com/xdims_metric_nuts.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw#I...c_screw_thread
http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tabl...Hex_Screws.htm
http://www.bath.ac.uk/idmrc/themes/p.../bol/bol7.html

On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 23:01:57 +0000, David Billington
wrote:

On 16/02/13 22:37, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 22:36:19 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 16-02-2013 18:35, skrev:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 15:15:43 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 16-02-2013 07:11, skrev:

Sounds like you have seen most of what a car can throw at you.
And those are just the highlights of the last 46 years. - and not
including any of the customer vehicle issues in my life in the trade
(about 25 years) in Canada -----
Saw one funny thing on some Chevy's a while back (1995/1996).
We were told they were built in Canada and that was the reason for the
all out metric tooling and threads on those.
Gave us a hard time since all our tooling was imperial.
Do you know if that could be true?

It was this model

http://www.easyautosales.com/used-ca...-84353930.html

only line trucks with toolboxes on the side of the bed.
Made in Oshawa Ontario. Vehicles of that vintage were *******ized
metric. Some parts were imperial - because they came from the USA.
Some were metric - but not metric standard. For example, in place of
5/16" bolts they used 8mm - but 8mm SHOULD have 12 mm heads - they
used 13 because it was "close enough" to 1/2" that 1/2" wrenches would
"sorta" fit. Same with 1/4". Replaced with 6mm - which should have
10mm heads - but they used 11mm because a 7/16" wrench would "sorta"
fit. So some redneck shadetree mechanic would try to force a 1/4 unf
or 5/16 unf bolt into the hole, or nut onto the stud, and bad things
started happening real fast. Not bad on a new vehicle where the
"metric" bolts had a green colour to them - but after about 5
years?????
Was stuck with several of those *******s in a location were it was
difficult to get supplies. A 1/2" was simply not allowed if it should be
a 13mm. Rather park the vehicle for the time it took to get the right
spanner.
Standard sizes on spanners for metrical nuts a (thread/spanner)
6mm/10mm 8mm/13mm 10mm/17mm 12mm/19mm
So my guess would be that they used 12mm heads.
You have it mixed up. Standard on an 8 is 12, everywhere in the world
except north america.
I must have been buying US metric bolts then for the last 20+ years in
the UK as all the M8 hex fasteners I buy have 13mm AF heads. See

http://www.fairburyfastener.com/xdims_metric_nuts.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw#I...c_screw_thread
http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tabl...Hex_Screws.htm
http://www.bath.ac.uk/idmrc/themes/p.../bol/bol7.html
You are buying hardware store fasteners - not automotive/industrial
fasteners.

On 16/02/13 23:13, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 23:01:57 +0000, David Billington
wrote:

On 16/02/13 22:37, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 22:36:19 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 16-02-2013 18:35, skrev:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 15:15:43 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 16-02-2013 07:11, skrev:

Sounds like you have seen most of what a car can throw at you.
And those are just the highlights of the last 46 years. - and not
including any of the customer vehicle issues in my life in the trade
(about 25 years) in Canada -----
Saw one funny thing on some Chevy's a while back (1995/1996).
We were told they were built in Canada and that was the reason for the
all out metric tooling and threads on those.
Gave us a hard time since all our tooling was imperial.
Do you know if that could be true?

It was this model

http://www.easyautosales.com/used-ca...-84353930.html

only line trucks with toolboxes on the side of the bed.
Made in Oshawa Ontario. Vehicles of that vintage were *******ized
metric. Some parts were imperial - because they came from the USA.
Some were metric - but not metric standard. For example, in place of
5/16" bolts they used 8mm - but 8mm SHOULD have 12 mm heads - they
used 13 because it was "close enough" to 1/2" that 1/2" wrenches would
"sorta" fit. Same with 1/4". Replaced with 6mm - which should have
10mm heads - but they used 11mm because a 7/16" wrench would "sorta"
fit. So some redneck shadetree mechanic would try to force a 1/4 unf
or 5/16 unf bolt into the hole, or nut onto the stud, and bad things
started happening real fast. Not bad on a new vehicle where the
"metric" bolts had a green colour to them - but after about 5
years?????
Was stuck with several of those *******s in a location were it was
difficult to get supplies. A 1/2" was simply not allowed if it should be
a 13mm. Rather park the vehicle for the time it took to get the right
spanner.
Standard sizes on spanners for metrical nuts a (thread/spanner)
6mm/10mm 8mm/13mm 10mm/17mm 12mm/19mm
So my guess would be that they used 12mm heads.
You have it mixed up. Standard on an 8 is 12, everywhere in the world
except north america.
I must have been buying US metric bolts then for the last 20+ years in
the UK as all the M8 hex fasteners I buy have 13mm AF heads. See

http://www.fairburyfastener.com/xdims_metric_nuts.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw#I...c_screw_thread
http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tabl...Hex_Screws.htm
http://www.bath.ac.uk/idmrc/themes/p.../bol/bol7.html
You are buying hardware store fasteners - not automotive/industrial
fasteners.
I'm buying industrial fasteners to ISO spec. Auto fasteners can be
anything the maker wants due to quantity. For instance M7 is not a
preferred size but is more prevalent these days in the auto industry as
the jump in strength between M6 and M8, both preferred sizes, is
significant and the intermediate M7 can perform the job where M6 is
insufficient and M8 overkill. Such is the way the engineering is these
days in the auto industry. IIRC a mate that works in auto engine design
has many boxes of M8 fasteners with 12mm AF heads and washer faced but
these are auto specials made for the application and not to a normal
fastener standard.

"Uffe Bærentsen" wrote in message
news:511ffbd7$0$305 Standard sizes on spanners for metrical nuts a
(thread/spanner)
6mm/10mm 8mm/13mm 10mm/17mm 12mm/19mm
So my guess would be that they used 12mm heads.
Uffe

There are 14 and 15mm hex heads on my Honda and some 18mm ones on the
Ford.

Den 17-02-2013 00:13, skrev:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 23:01:57 +0000, David Billington
wrote:

On 16/02/13 22:37, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 22:36:19 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 16-02-2013 18:35, skrev:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 15:15:43 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 16-02-2013 07:11, skrev:

Sounds like you have seen most of what a car can throw at you.
And those are just the highlights of the last 46 years. - and not
including any of the customer vehicle issues in my life in the trade
(about 25 years) in Canada -----
Saw one funny thing on some Chevy's a while back (1995/1996).
We were told they were built in Canada and that was the reason for the
all out metric tooling and threads on those.
Gave us a hard time since all our tooling was imperial.
Do you know if that could be true?

It was this model

http://www.easyautosales.com/used-ca...-84353930.html

only line trucks with toolboxes on the side of the bed.
Made in Oshawa Ontario. Vehicles of that vintage were *******ized
metric. Some parts were imperial - because they came from the USA.
Some were metric - but not metric standard. For example, in place of
5/16" bolts they used 8mm - but 8mm SHOULD have 12 mm heads - they
used 13 because it was "close enough" to 1/2" that 1/2" wrenches would
"sorta" fit. Same with 1/4". Replaced with 6mm - which should have
10mm heads - but they used 11mm because a 7/16" wrench would "sorta"
fit. So some redneck shadetree mechanic would try to force a 1/4 unf
or 5/16 unf bolt into the hole, or nut onto the stud, and bad things
started happening real fast. Not bad on a new vehicle where the
"metric" bolts had a green colour to them - but after about 5
years?????
Was stuck with several of those *******s in a location were it was
difficult to get supplies. A 1/2" was simply not allowed if it should be
a 13mm. Rather park the vehicle for the time it took to get the right
spanner.
Standard sizes on spanners for metrical nuts a (thread/spanner)
6mm/10mm 8mm/13mm 10mm/17mm 12mm/19mm
So my guess would be that they used 12mm heads.
You have it mixed up. Standard on an 8 is 12, everywhere in the world
except north america.
I must have been buying US metric bolts then for the last 20+ years in
the UK as all the M8 hex fasteners I buy have 13mm AF heads. See

http://www.fairburyfastener.com/xdims_metric_nuts.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw#I...c_screw_thread
http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tabl...Hex_Screws.htm
http://www.bath.ac.uk/idmrc/themes/p.../bol/bol7.html
You are buying hardware store fasteners - not automotive/industrial
fasteners.

This I must give you: Glad I don't have to argue with you on a daily
basis due to me not being a good looser ;-)
Must admit that I went on a lookout tour on the web and you were damn
right the automotive fastners/nuts that I found were skinnier than the
standard nuts :-(
Never gave this much of a thought just grabbed another wrench for the
job. Living in Europe have wrenches and sockets in mm and having
troubles with the Imperial nuts and bolts.
Except for the hex/allen keys.
Having a South Bend lathe I'm forced to have at least Allen keys in
Imperial ;-)


--
Uffe

Den 17-02-2013 01:07, Jim Wilkins skrev:
"Uffe Bærentsen" wrote in message
news:511ffbd7$0$305 Standard sizes on spanners for metrical nuts a
(thread/spanner)
6mm/10mm 8mm/13mm 10mm/17mm 12mm/19mm
So my guess would be that they used 12mm heads.
Uffe

There are 14 and 15mm hex heads on my Honda and some 18mm ones on the
Ford.

The Ford I know about since a Ford Mondeo sits in the driveway here.
The first time i came across the odd size of 18mm I was confused, but
now I konw better ;-)


--
Uffe

On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 10:17:47 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 17:54:39 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
I've asked engineers from Asia and Africa about this, but it seems
they had all avoided such demeaning manual skills if they were smart
and rich enough to get into a foreign university.


That, in a nutshell, is the problem. I have not been into the
Republic of South Africa - perhaps the sanctions made that happen
there - but in Zambia in the '70s there was not a lot of that
evident.
Some in Burkina in 2000. But not like Cuba or India, or Cassablanca

Old African hunting books tell of having to send damaged rifles back
to England to be repaired by craftsmen who filed and scraped the new
part to fit by hand, using candle flame soot to judge their
progress. I've fitted someone's wobbly scope base to the receiver at
the range by scraping it with broken glass off the ground and checking
the contact area with soot from a Bic.

What? No proper scraper in your range bag? That's a handy skillset.

--
If government were a product,
selling it would be illegal.
--P.J. O'Rourke

On 17/02/13 00:28, Uffe Bærentsen wrote:
Den 17-02-2013 01:07, Jim Wilkins skrev:
"Uffe Bærentsen" wrote in message
news:511ffbd7$0$305 Standard sizes on spanners for metrical nuts a
(thread/spanner)
6mm/10mm 8mm/13mm 10mm/17mm 12mm/19mm
So my guess would be that they used 12mm heads.
Uffe

There are 14 and 15mm hex heads on my Honda and some 18mm ones on the
Ford.

The Ford I know about since a Ford Mondeo sits in the driveway here.
The first time i came across the odd size of 18mm I was confused, but
now I konw better ;-)


Years ago a mate that speaks fluent German and French and was working in
Munich at the time mentioned a German expression about something being
as useful as a 17mm spanner indicating it was of little use. I thought
that odd at the time as at least the spanner for the spindle on my
German angle grinder was 17mm AF, maybe he got the size wrong.

Den 17-02-2013 01:40, David Billington skrev:
On 17/02/13 00:28, Uffe Bærentsen wrote:
Den 17-02-2013 01:07, Jim Wilkins skrev:
"Uffe Bærentsen" wrote in message
news:511ffbd7$0$305 Standard sizes on spanners for metrical nuts a
(thread/spanner)
6mm/10mm 8mm/13mm 10mm/17mm 12mm/19mm
So my guess would be that they used 12mm heads.
Uffe

There are 14 and 15mm hex heads on my Honda and some 18mm ones on the
Ford.

The Ford I know about since a Ford Mondeo sits in the driveway here.
The first time i came across the odd size of 18mm I was confused, but
now I konw better ;-)


Years ago a mate that speaks fluent German and French and was working in
Munich at the time mentioned a German expression about something being
as useful as a 17mm spanner indicating it was of little use. I thought
that odd at the time as at least the spanner for the spindle on my
German angle grinder was 17mm AF, maybe he got the size wrong.

What does 17mm AF exactly means?
My guess would be something that expresses 17mm wrench but why calling
it AF?

--
Uffe

"David Billington" wrote in message
news:51201a3b$0$4494
I'm buying industrial fasteners to ISO spec. Auto fasteners can be
anything the maker wants due to quantity. For instance M7 is not a
preferred size but is more prevalent these days in the auto industry
as the jump in strength between M6 and M8, both preferred sizes, is
significant and the intermediate M7 can perform the job where M6 is
insufficient and M8 overkill.

The clamping screws on my Swiss Multifix lathe tool holder are 7mm. I
found replacements for the damaged ones in an auto parts store. The
heads are 11mm which a 7/16" wrench fits nicely, so I can use the
antique wrenches I've collected to go with the lathe.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
What? No proper scraper in your range bag? That's a handy
skillset.

The only tool I carry is a $5 Chinese ripoff of the Swiss Soldier
knife. It has fixed a remarkable range of problems.

On 17/02/13 00:57, Uffe Bærentsen wrote:
Den 17-02-2013 01:40, David Billington skrev:
On 17/02/13 00:28, Uffe Bærentsen wrote:
Den 17-02-2013 01:07, Jim Wilkins skrev:
"Uffe Bærentsen" wrote in message
news:511ffbd7$0$305 Standard sizes on spanners for metrical nuts a
(thread/spanner)
6mm/10mm 8mm/13mm 10mm/17mm 12mm/19mm
So my guess would be that they used 12mm heads.
Uffe

There are 14 and 15mm hex heads on my Honda and some 18mm ones on the
Ford.

The Ford I know about since a Ford Mondeo sits in the driveway here.
The first time i came across the odd size of 18mm I was confused, but
now I konw better ;-)


Years ago a mate that speaks fluent German and French and was working in
Munich at the time mentioned a German expression about something being
as useful as a 17mm spanner indicating it was of little use. I thought
that odd at the time as at least the spanner for the spindle on my
German angle grinder was 17mm AF, maybe he got the size wrong.

What does 17mm AF exactly means?
My guess would be something that expresses 17mm wrench but why calling
it AF?

Uffe,

Sorry about the AF term usage as that is common in inch and metric
English terminology for wrench (spanner) dimensions. The AF refers to
"Across Flats" so the 17mm AF is a 17mm wrench (spanner).

Something that annoys me is that most US posters quote gauge systems and
temperature without noting the systems being used when posting on an
international group. The system can normally be determined from context
such as degrees C or F as the difference is significant but gauge sizes
such as awg and swg can differ by a significant amount for some uses but
are not specified just given as "g", quoting metal thicknesses in mm
removes ambiguity. It doesn't help though that in these times of high
metal cost mills seem to be paring the sheet metal thickness to the
minimum and below I reckon to get more sheets per ton.

Den 17-02-2013 02:25, David Billington skrev:
On 17/02/13 00:57, Uffe Bærentsen wrote:
Den 17-02-2013 01:40, David Billington skrev:
On 17/02/13 00:28, Uffe Bærentsen wrote:
Den 17-02-2013 01:07, Jim Wilkins skrev:
"Uffe Bærentsen" wrote in message
news:511ffbd7$0$305 Standard sizes on spanners for metrical nuts a
(thread/spanner)
6mm/10mm 8mm/13mm 10mm/17mm 12mm/19mm
So my guess would be that they used 12mm heads.
Uffe

There are 14 and 15mm hex heads on my Honda and some 18mm ones on the
Ford.

The Ford I know about since a Ford Mondeo sits in the driveway here.
The first time i came across the odd size of 18mm I was confused, but
now I konw better ;-)


Years ago a mate that speaks fluent German and French and was working in
Munich at the time mentioned a German expression about something being
as useful as a 17mm spanner indicating it was of little use. I thought
that odd at the time as at least the spanner for the spindle on my
German angle grinder was 17mm AF, maybe he got the size wrong.

What does 17mm AF exactly means?
My guess would be something that expresses 17mm wrench but why calling
it AF?

Uffe,

Sorry about the AF term usage as that is common in inch and metric
English terminology for wrench (spanner) dimensions. The AF refers to
"Across Flats" so the 17mm AF is a 17mm wrench (spanner).

Don't fell sorry about that after all it gave me more knowledge :-)
I knew about SW (schlüssel weite) in german and NV (nøgle vidde) in
danish/swedish but did not have the fantasy to figur out what AF was an
abreviation from.


Something that annoys me is that most US posters quote gauge systems and
temperature without noting the systems being used when posting on an
international group. The system can normally be determined from context
such as degrees C or F as the difference is significant but gauge sizes
such as awg and swg can differ by a significant amount for some uses but
are not specified just given as "g", quoting metal thicknesses in mm
removes ambiguity. It doesn't help though that in these times of high
metal cost mills seem to be paring the sheet metal thickness to the
minimum and below I reckon to get more sheets per ton.

When reading here I always having in mind that many posts come from
countries that mainly use inches and other measureing units that are
foreign to me. From time to time I must look some units up when I'm not
able to convert them in my head.



--
Uffe

"David Billington" wrote in message
news:512030ad$0$1096
Something that annoys me is that most US posters quote gauge systems
and temperature without noting the systems being used when posting
on an international group. The system can normally be determined
from context such as degrees C or F as the difference is significant
but gauge sizes such as awg and swg can differ by a significant
amount for some uses but are not specified just given as "g",
quoting metal thicknesses in mm removes ambiguity.

I have a WW2 aircraft sheetmetal book that explains the gauge system,
and then says that the US aircraft makers have all abandoned it and
use decimal thickness.

My WW2 shipbuilding book describes steel in weight per square foot, as
10 pound plate for 1/4" thickness. Learning the conversion has been
quite useful for me when buying scrap steel. Aluminum weighs roughly
1/3 as much per volume.

On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 23:50:06 +0000, David Billington
wrote:

On 16/02/13 23:13, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 23:01:57 +0000, David Billington
wrote:

On 16/02/13 22:37, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 22:36:19 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 16-02-2013 18:35, skrev:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 15:15:43 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 16-02-2013 07:11, skrev:

Sounds like you have seen most of what a car can throw at you.
And those are just the highlights of the last 46 years. - and not
including any of the customer vehicle issues in my life in the trade
(about 25 years) in Canada -----
Saw one funny thing on some Chevy's a while back (1995/1996).
We were told they were built in Canada and that was the reason for the
all out metric tooling and threads on those.
Gave us a hard time since all our tooling was imperial.
Do you know if that could be true?

It was this model

http://www.easyautosales.com/used-ca...-84353930.html

only line trucks with toolboxes on the side of the bed.
Made in Oshawa Ontario. Vehicles of that vintage were *******ized
metric. Some parts were imperial - because they came from the USA.
Some were metric - but not metric standard. For example, in place of
5/16" bolts they used 8mm - but 8mm SHOULD have 12 mm heads - they
used 13 because it was "close enough" to 1/2" that 1/2" wrenches would
"sorta" fit. Same with 1/4". Replaced with 6mm - which should have
10mm heads - but they used 11mm because a 7/16" wrench would "sorta"
fit. So some redneck shadetree mechanic would try to force a 1/4 unf
or 5/16 unf bolt into the hole, or nut onto the stud, and bad things
started happening real fast. Not bad on a new vehicle where the
"metric" bolts had a green colour to them - but after about 5
years?????
Was stuck with several of those *******s in a location were it was
difficult to get supplies. A 1/2" was simply not allowed if it should be
a 13mm. Rather park the vehicle for the time it took to get the right
spanner.
Standard sizes on spanners for metrical nuts a (thread/spanner)
6mm/10mm 8mm/13mm 10mm/17mm 12mm/19mm
So my guess would be that they used 12mm heads.
You have it mixed up. Standard on an 8 is 12, everywhere in the world
except north america.
I must have been buying US metric bolts then for the last 20+ years in
the UK as all the M8 hex fasteners I buy have 13mm AF heads. See

http://www.fairburyfastener.com/xdims_metric_nuts.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw#I...c_screw_thread
http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tabl...Hex_Screws.htm
http://www.bath.ac.uk/idmrc/themes/p.../bol/bol7.html
You are buying hardware store fasteners - not automotive/industrial
fasteners.
I'm buying industrial fasteners to ISO spec. Auto fasteners can be
anything the maker wants due to quantity. For instance M7 is not a
preferred size but is more prevalent these days in the auto industry as
the jump in strength between M6 and M8, both preferred sizes, is
significant and the intermediate M7 can perform the job where M6 is
insufficient and M8 overkill. Such is the way the engineering is these
days in the auto industry. IIRC a mate that works in auto engine design
has many boxes of M8 fasteners with 12mm AF heads and washer faced but
these are auto specials made for the application and not to a normal
fastener standard.
All I'm saying is in the AUTOMOTIVE world, the standard for 8mm
bolts is a 12 mm head virtually everywhere but the North American
manufacturers. - which is why a lot of "automotive" targetted socket
and wrench sets have 12mm but not 13mm wrenches and sockets,

On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 19:07:26 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Uffe Bærentsen" wrote in message
news:511ffbd7$0$305 Standard sizes on spanners for metrical nuts a
(thread/spanner)
6mm/10mm 8mm/13mm 10mm/17mm 12mm/19mm
So my guess would be that they used 12mm heads.
Uffe

There are 14 and 15mm hex heads on my Honda and some 18mm ones on the
Ford.

You can fix just about anything on a Toyota with 8, 10, 12, 14, 17,
and 19 mm wrenches. The odd 15mm has snuck in - and the larger 21 and
24 mm are also used. 11 and 13mm are almost unheard of -
Same goes for Honda, Nissan, VW, Mazda and Mitsu.

On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 01:19:51 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 17-02-2013 00:13, skrev:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 23:01:57 +0000, David Billington
wrote:

On 16/02/13 22:37, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 22:36:19 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 16-02-2013 18:35, skrev:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 15:15:43 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 16-02-2013 07:11, skrev:

Sounds like you have seen most of what a car can throw at you.
And those are just the highlights of the last 46 years. - and not
including any of the customer vehicle issues in my life in the trade
(about 25 years) in Canada -----
Saw one funny thing on some Chevy's a while back (1995/1996).
We were told they were built in Canada and that was the reason for the
all out metric tooling and threads on those.
Gave us a hard time since all our tooling was imperial.
Do you know if that could be true?

It was this model

http://www.easyautosales.com/used-ca...-84353930.html

only line trucks with toolboxes on the side of the bed.
Made in Oshawa Ontario. Vehicles of that vintage were *******ized
metric. Some parts were imperial - because they came from the USA.
Some were metric - but not metric standard. For example, in place of
5/16" bolts they used 8mm - but 8mm SHOULD have 12 mm heads - they
used 13 because it was "close enough" to 1/2" that 1/2" wrenches would
"sorta" fit. Same with 1/4". Replaced with 6mm - which should have
10mm heads - but they used 11mm because a 7/16" wrench would "sorta"
fit. So some redneck shadetree mechanic would try to force a 1/4 unf
or 5/16 unf bolt into the hole, or nut onto the stud, and bad things
started happening real fast. Not bad on a new vehicle where the
"metric" bolts had a green colour to them - but after about 5
years?????
Was stuck with several of those *******s in a location were it was
difficult to get supplies. A 1/2" was simply not allowed if it should be
a 13mm. Rather park the vehicle for the time it took to get the right
spanner.
Standard sizes on spanners for metrical nuts a (thread/spanner)
6mm/10mm 8mm/13mm 10mm/17mm 12mm/19mm
So my guess would be that they used 12mm heads.
You have it mixed up. Standard on an 8 is 12, everywhere in the world
except north america.
I must have been buying US metric bolts then for the last 20+ years in
the UK as all the M8 hex fasteners I buy have 13mm AF heads. See

http://www.fairburyfastener.com/xdims_metric_nuts.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw#I...c_screw_thread
http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tabl...Hex_Screws.htm
http://www.bath.ac.uk/idmrc/themes/p.../bol/bol7.html
You are buying hardware store fasteners - not automotive/industrial
fasteners.

This I must give you: Glad I don't have to argue with you on a daily
basis due to me not being a good looser ;-)
Must admit that I went on a lookout tour on the web and you were damn
right the automotive fastners/nuts that I found were skinnier than the
standard nuts :-(
Never gave this much of a thought just grabbed another wrench for the
job. Living in Europe have wrenches and sockets in mm and having
troubles with the Imperial nuts and bolts.
Except for the hex/allen keys.
Having a South Bend lathe I'm forced to have at least Allen keys in
Imperial ;-)
Most of those "metric" bolts you are using are coarse thread too.
Pretty hard to find the fine thread metrics at most hardware stores -
and even a lot of "industrial supplies" - and some of the "coarse"
metrics are different than the coarse metrics used by the major
japanese and european auto manufacturers too -----.

That's the beauty, as they say in the computer world, of standards ---
There are so many to choose from!!!

On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 01:28:09 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 17-02-2013 01:07, Jim Wilkins skrev:
"Uffe Bærentsen" wrote in message
news:511ffbd7$0$305 Standard sizes on spanners for metrical nuts a
(thread/spanner)
6mm/10mm 8mm/13mm 10mm/17mm 12mm/19mm
So my guess would be that they used 12mm heads.
Uffe

There are 14 and 15mm hex heads on my Honda and some 18mm ones on the
Ford.

The Ford I know about since a Ford Mondeo sits in the driveway here.
The first time i came across the odd size of 18mm I was confused, but
now I konw better ;-)
Had a Mondeo (Mystique) on my driveway for about 12 years - and
found a few surprises too. Combination of british and german
engineering, built in Kansas City!!!

On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 01:57:27 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 17-02-2013 01:40, David Billington skrev:
On 17/02/13 00:28, Uffe Bærentsen wrote:
Den 17-02-2013 01:07, Jim Wilkins skrev:
"Uffe Bærentsen" wrote in message
news:511ffbd7$0$305 Standard sizes on spanners for metrical nuts a
(thread/spanner)
6mm/10mm 8mm/13mm 10mm/17mm 12mm/19mm
So my guess would be that they used 12mm heads.
Uffe

There are 14 and 15mm hex heads on my Honda and some 18mm ones on the
Ford.

The Ford I know about since a Ford Mondeo sits in the driveway here.
The first time i came across the odd size of 18mm I was confused, but
now I konw better ;-)


Years ago a mate that speaks fluent German and French and was working in
Munich at the time mentioned a German expression about something being
as useful as a 17mm spanner indicating it was of little use. I thought
that odd at the time as at least the spanner for the spindle on my
German angle grinder was 17mm AF, maybe he got the size wrong.

What does 17mm AF exactly means?
My guess would be something that expresses 17mm wrench but why calling
it AF?
AF for across flats - to diferentiate from the old british way of
specifying a wrench by the thread size. BSF and BSW (British standard
fine and british standard whitworth) where a 1/2" bsf and 1/2" bsw
used two different sized "spanners" - none of which were anywhere
close to 1/2" in any dimension.

On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 20:24:39 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
What? No proper scraper in your range bag? That's a handy
skillset.

The only tool I carry is a $5 Chinese ripoff of the Swiss Soldier
knife. It has fixed a remarkable range of problems.

I have a $10 (Target) Swiss army knife (Victorinox Classic SD, the
best little pocket knife ever made. http://tinyurl.com/clrm72w ) in my
pocket and carry a nice little Cold Steel Kobun tanto in my truck (to
cut rope, of course. http://www.coldsteel.com/Product/17T/KOBUN.aspx )

BUT, I was referring to a simple addition to the range bag. Something
like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HandScrapers.jpg
I have the triangular type (alas, with near-zero experience), but I've
seen them used to good effect.

--
If government were a product,
selling it would be illegal.
--P.J. O'Rourke

Den 17-02-2013 07:28, skrev:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 01:19:51 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 17-02-2013 00:13, skrev:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 23:01:57 +0000, David Billington
wrote:

On 16/02/13 22:37, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 22:36:19 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 16-02-2013 18:35, skrev:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 15:15:43 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 16-02-2013 07:11, skrev:

Sounds like you have seen most of what a car can throw at you.
And those are just the highlights of the last 46 years. - and not
including any of the customer vehicle issues in my life in the trade
(about 25 years) in Canada -----
Saw one funny thing on some Chevy's a while back (1995/1996).
We were told they were built in Canada and that was the reason for the
all out metric tooling and threads on those.
Gave us a hard time since all our tooling was imperial.
Do you know if that could be true?

It was this model

http://www.easyautosales.com/used-ca...-84353930.html

only line trucks with toolboxes on the side of the bed.
Made in Oshawa Ontario. Vehicles of that vintage were *******ized
metric. Some parts were imperial - because they came from the USA.
Some were metric - but not metric standard. For example, in place of
5/16" bolts they used 8mm - but 8mm SHOULD have 12 mm heads - they
used 13 because it was "close enough" to 1/2" that 1/2" wrenches would
"sorta" fit. Same with 1/4". Replaced with 6mm - which should have
10mm heads - but they used 11mm because a 7/16" wrench would "sorta"
fit. So some redneck shadetree mechanic would try to force a 1/4 unf
or 5/16 unf bolt into the hole, or nut onto the stud, and bad things
started happening real fast. Not bad on a new vehicle where the
"metric" bolts had a green colour to them - but after about 5
years?????
Was stuck with several of those *******s in a location were it was
difficult to get supplies. A 1/2" was simply not allowed if it should be
a 13mm. Rather park the vehicle for the time it took to get the right
spanner.
Standard sizes on spanners for metrical nuts a (thread/spanner)
6mm/10mm 8mm/13mm 10mm/17mm 12mm/19mm
So my guess would be that they used 12mm heads.
You have it mixed up. Standard on an 8 is 12, everywhere in the world
except north america.
I must have been buying US metric bolts then for the last 20+ years in
the UK as all the M8 hex fasteners I buy have 13mm AF heads. See

http://www.fairburyfastener.com/xdims_metric_nuts.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw#I...c_screw_thread
http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tabl...Hex_Screws.htm
http://www.bath.ac.uk/idmrc/themes/p.../bol/bol7.html
You are buying hardware store fasteners - not automotive/industrial
fasteners.

This I must give you: Glad I don't have to argue with you on a daily
basis due to me not being a good looser ;-)
Must admit that I went on a lookout tour on the web and you were damn
right the automotive fastners/nuts that I found were skinnier than the
standard nuts :-(
Never gave this much of a thought just grabbed another wrench for the
job. Living in Europe have wrenches and sockets in mm and having
troubles with the Imperial nuts and bolts.
Except for the hex/allen keys.
Having a South Bend lathe I'm forced to have at least Allen keys in
Imperial ;-)
Most of those "metric" bolts you are using are coarse thread too.
Pretty hard to find the fine thread metrics at most hardware stores -
and even a lot of "industrial supplies" - and some of the "coarse"
metrics are different than the coarse metrics used by the major
japanese and european auto manufacturers too -----.

That's the beauty, as they say in the computer world, of standards ---
There are so many to choose from!!!

I know I'm spoiled.
In this city we do have a very well supplied hardware store that carries
metric in both coarse and fine and also carries imperial coarse.
The other stuff they are willing to order even if you only need say 10 nuts.



--
Uffe

wrote in message
news
Most of those "metric" bolts you are using are coarse thread too.
Pretty hard to find the fine thread metrics at most hardware
stores -
and even a lot of "industrial supplies" - and some of the "coarse"
metrics are different than the coarse metrics used by the major
japanese and european auto manufacturers too -----.


I recently bought some 10.9 12mm x 1.25 mm extra fine bolts for my
Honda. Surprisingly they were cheaper from the dealer than the local
hardware store.
jsw

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 20:24:39 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

BUT, I was referring to a simple addition to the range bag.
Something
like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HandScrapers.jpg
I have the triangular type (alas, with near-zero experience), but
I've
seen them used to good effect.

I have nowhere near the skill and training (or interest) to be a
gunsmith. I've read some books on it but took away only what I could
use in building lab instruments.

Scrapers like that generally require small work to be held in a solid
bench vise, which is way too much to lug around. The closest thing I
have in the car is a triangular needle file to sharpen pruning saw
teeth. I can free a stuck car with a big lever as long as I have a
sharp saw to cut it. Do you remember what I posted about piling rocks
around the wheel so they would fall in the hole when the wheel is
raised?

On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 08:46:54 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 20:24:39 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

BUT, I was referring to a simple addition to the range bag.
Something
like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HandScrapers.jpg
I have the triangular type (alas, with near-zero experience), but
I've
seen them used to good effect.

I have nowhere near the skill and training (or interest) to be a
gunsmith. I've read some books on it but took away only what I could
use in building lab instruments.

Scrapers like that generally require small work to be held in a solid
bench vise, which is way too much to lug around. The closest thing I
have in the car is a triangular needle file to sharpen pruning saw
teeth.

The vise is another guy's strong hands. g But I grok what you say.


I can free a stuck car with a big lever as long as I have a
sharp saw to cut it. Do you remember what I posted about piling rocks
around the wheel so they would fall in the hole when the wheel is
raised?

Oh, yes. I've used sand, but rocks would be much better.

--
If government were a product,
selling it would be illegal.
--P.J. O'Rourke

On 2/16/2013 2:48 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
....

I may have a better answer for which parts vendors (that's where the
SAE fasteners are coming from) haven't converted yet, and why....

The parts vendors are supply what the end-user specs; not the other way
'round. If it's SAE, it's 'cuz GM says so, not because some vendor
chooses to make it that way.

And, these are holes/fasteners in the same assembly (the belt tensioner
subassembly/heater coolant intermediary flow passage between block and
hose connection) so it's not like one part is SAE while the rest are
metric--it's mixed on the same sub-assembly.

--

On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 09:28:49 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 2/16/2013 2:48 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
...

I may have a better answer for which parts vendors (that's where the
SAE fasteners are coming from) haven't converted yet, and why....

The parts vendors are supply what the end-user specs; not the other way
'round. If it's SAE, it's 'cuz GM says so, not because some vendor
chooses to make it that way.

Well, that's the question: Why are they doing that? It's probably a
cost issue, and it may have something to do with the costs at the
vendor level -- tooling, inventory, testing equipment, or whatever.



And, these are holes/fasteners in the same assembly (the belt tensioner
subassembly/heater coolant intermediary flow passage between block and
hose connection) so it's not like one part is SAE while the rest are
metric--it's mixed on the same sub-assembly.

Den 17-02-2013 14:11, Jim Wilkins skrev:
wrote in message
news
Most of those "metric" bolts you are using are coarse thread too.
Pretty hard to find the fine thread metrics at most hardware
stores -
and even a lot of "industrial supplies" - and some of the "coarse"
metrics are different than the coarse metrics used by the major
japanese and european auto manufacturers too -----.


I recently bought some 10.9 12mm x 1.25 mm extra fine bolts for my
Honda. Surprisingly they were cheaper from the dealer than the local
hardware store.

I think the answer to that will be: Quantity since Honda is buying a lot
more than your local hardware store.


--
Uffe

On 2/17/2013 10:04 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 09:28:49 -0600, wrote:

On 2/16/2013 2:48 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
...

I may have a better answer for which parts vendors (that's where the
SAE fasteners are coming from) haven't converted yet, and why....

The parts vendors are supply what the end-user specs; not the other way
'round. If it's SAE, it's 'cuz GM says so, not because some vendor
chooses to make it that way.

Well, that's the question: Why are they doing that? It's probably a
cost issue, and it may have something to do with the costs at the
vendor level -- tooling, inventory, testing equipment, or whatever.

There's where I've no real clue as to why they would choose to do so
altho I'm sure there was/is a reason.

At this point (or as recently as 2003) for a production item as high in
numbers as the 3.8L transverse V6 that GM has used in millions of
vehicles for heaven only knows how long it's been since it was
introduced there's certainly no reason to think there's any limitation
on what vendors can do to supply whatever GM spec's to them.

It seems very strange, indeed that would have left one set as SAE and
all else not--that would seem to lead to a higher cost both for
inventory and in likelihood of mismatches than otherwise.

But, I've no clue other than I discovered it and was curious enough that
while was fetching the wrench (as I recall it was 7/16" that needed; it
wasn't large) I brought a 1/4" bolt back from the bin just to check and
indeed it was the whole bolt, not just an english head size on a metric
bolt.

Agreed, it's peculiar and I've no explanation. I've an ex-SIL that
works for DENSO but their production is all brakes and steering parts so
doubt he'd have any real knowledge on this one...the plant there does
mostly Ford but have a couple of the TN-built Japanese lines as well and
an occasional GM run will sneak in but it's the exception.

And, these are holes/fasteners in the same assembly (the belt tensioner
subassembly/heater coolant intermediary flow passage between block and
hose connection) so it's not like one part is SAE while the rest are
metric--it's mixed on the same sub-assembly.

The above is what really floored me...

--

On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 12:53:52 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 17-02-2013 07:28, skrev:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 01:19:51 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 17-02-2013 00:13, skrev:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 23:01:57 +0000, David Billington
wrote:

On 16/02/13 22:37, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 22:36:19 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 16-02-2013 18:35, skrev:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 15:15:43 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 16-02-2013 07:11, skrev:

Sounds like you have seen most of what a car can throw at you.
And those are just the highlights of the last 46 years. - and not
including any of the customer vehicle issues in my life in the trade
(about 25 years) in Canada -----
Saw one funny thing on some Chevy's a while back (1995/1996).
We were told they were built in Canada and that was the reason for the
all out metric tooling and threads on those.
Gave us a hard time since all our tooling was imperial.
Do you know if that could be true?

It was this model

http://www.easyautosales.com/used-ca...-84353930.html

only line trucks with toolboxes on the side of the bed.
Made in Oshawa Ontario. Vehicles of that vintage were *******ized
metric. Some parts were imperial - because they came from the USA.
Some were metric - but not metric standard. For example, in place of
5/16" bolts they used 8mm - but 8mm SHOULD have 12 mm heads - they
used 13 because it was "close enough" to 1/2" that 1/2" wrenches would
"sorta" fit. Same with 1/4". Replaced with 6mm - which should have
10mm heads - but they used 11mm because a 7/16" wrench would "sorta"
fit. So some redneck shadetree mechanic would try to force a 1/4 unf
or 5/16 unf bolt into the hole, or nut onto the stud, and bad things
started happening real fast. Not bad on a new vehicle where the
"metric" bolts had a green colour to them - but after about 5
years?????
Was stuck with several of those *******s in a location were it was
difficult to get supplies. A 1/2" was simply not allowed if it should be
a 13mm. Rather park the vehicle for the time it took to get the right
spanner.
Standard sizes on spanners for metrical nuts a (thread/spanner)
6mm/10mm 8mm/13mm 10mm/17mm 12mm/19mm
So my guess would be that they used 12mm heads.
You have it mixed up. Standard on an 8 is 12, everywhere in the world
except north america.
I must have been buying US metric bolts then for the last 20+ years in
the UK as all the M8 hex fasteners I buy have 13mm AF heads. See

http://www.fairburyfastener.com/xdims_metric_nuts.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw#I...c_screw_thread
http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tabl...Hex_Screws.htm
http://www.bath.ac.uk/idmrc/themes/p.../bol/bol7.html
You are buying hardware store fasteners - not automotive/industrial
fasteners.

This I must give you: Glad I don't have to argue with you on a daily
basis due to me not being a good looser ;-)
Must admit that I went on a lookout tour on the web and you were damn
right the automotive fastners/nuts that I found were skinnier than the
standard nuts :-(
Never gave this much of a thought just grabbed another wrench for the
job. Living in Europe have wrenches and sockets in mm and having
troubles with the Imperial nuts and bolts.
Except for the hex/allen keys.
Having a South Bend lathe I'm forced to have at least Allen keys in
Imperial ;-)
Most of those "metric" bolts you are using are coarse thread too.
Pretty hard to find the fine thread metrics at most hardware stores -
and even a lot of "industrial supplies" - and some of the "coarse"
metrics are different than the coarse metrics used by the major
japanese and european auto manufacturers too -----.

That's the beauty, as they say in the computer world, of standards ---
There are so many to choose from!!!

I know I'm spoiled.
In this city we do have a very well supplied hardware store that carries
metric in both coarse and fine and also carries imperial coarse.
The other stuff they are willing to order even if you only need say 10 nuts.
I'm even more spoiled - a great industrial fastener distributor that
started out as a supplier of automotive upholstery "findings" - so
they carry just about any fastener part you could immagine - 5 miles
away Spae Naur Kemsies.

On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 08:11:24 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

wrote in message
news
Most of those "metric" bolts you are using are coarse thread too.
Pretty hard to find the fine thread metrics at most hardware
stores -
and even a lot of "industrial supplies" - and some of the "coarse"
metrics are different than the coarse metrics used by the major
japanese and european auto manufacturers too -----.


I recently bought some 10.9 12mm x 1.25 mm extra fine bolts for my
Honda. Surprisingly they were cheaper from the dealer than the local
hardware store.
jsw

That's not out of the ordinary. I get a laugh out of guys looking for
on-line places to buy parts for imports when so often the part is
cheaper from the dealer than any third party supplier. Particularly
parts that are a little bit "unique".

On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 13:50:13 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 2/17/2013 10:04 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 09:28:49 -0600, wrote:

On 2/16/2013 2:48 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
...

I may have a better answer for which parts vendors (that's where the
SAE fasteners are coming from) haven't converted yet, and why....

The parts vendors are supply what the end-user specs; not the other way
'round. If it's SAE, it's 'cuz GM says so, not because some vendor
chooses to make it that way.

Well, that's the question: Why are they doing that? It's probably a
cost issue, and it may have something to do with the costs at the
vendor level -- tooling, inventory, testing equipment, or whatever.

There's where I've no real clue as to why they would choose to do so
altho I'm sure there was/is a reason.

At this point (or as recently as 2003) for a production item as high in
numbers as the 3.8L transverse V6 that GM has used in millions of
vehicles for heaven only knows how long it's been since it was
introduced there's certainly no reason to think there's any limitation
on what vendors can do to supply whatever GM spec's to them.

It seems very strange, indeed that would have left one set as SAE and
all else not--that would seem to lead to a higher cost both for
inventory and in likelihood of mismatches than otherwise.

But, I've no clue other than I discovered it and was curious enough that
while was fetching the wrench (as I recall it was 7/16" that needed; it
wasn't large) I brought a 1/4" bolt back from the bin just to check and
indeed it was the whole bolt, not just an english head size on a metric
bolt.

Agreed, it's peculiar and I've no explanation. I've an ex-SIL that
works for DENSO but their production is all brakes and steering parts so
doubt he'd have any real knowledge on this one...the plant there does
mostly Ford but have a couple of the TN-built Japanese lines as well and
an occasional GM run will sneak in but it's the exception.

And, these are holes/fasteners in the same assembly (the belt tensioner
subassembly/heater coolant intermediary flow passage between block and
hose connection) so it's not like one part is SAE while the rest are
metric--it's mixed on the same sub-assembly.

The above is what really floored me...

I hope I get a chance to look into it. It must be something simple.

--
Ed Huntress