"Jon Elson" wrote in message
...
Existential Angst wrote:


I opted for 7 kW as opposed the 12 kW jobby, simply as a $$ bet. The 7
kW
will power the house OR the shop, or pieces of both. If it works well,
and if it turns out I need more power or there are lots of outages, I can
always
get another, and still be ahead of the game. I can isolate the shop from
the house electrically, and therefore can power them separately. Or
together, if I'm mindful of loads.

My wife OK'ed getting a generator for the Y2K thing, which I knew was
going
to be a bust anyway. But, I've lived through a couple other prolonged
outages, and they are a major annoyance. Had one when I was single and
in the summer, and I just played on the computers at work until late at
night, when it was cool enough to go home and sleep. That one lasted
3 or 4 days.

After getting the generator, we didn't have any outages for a long time,
I occasionally got the thing out to run an outdoor power tool, just to
keep the cylinder from rusting. Kind of like an umbrella keeps it from
raining. Well, we finally had a serious ice storm about 5 years ago.
Power was only out for about 14 hours, as we are pretty close to the main
feeder for a large area.

Anyway, when the juice went off, I could hear the zorch-zorch-zorch
of the recloser cycling, so I knew the entire 7200 Volt feeder was off
from
the substation, and figured this would take a while. So, I ran extension
cords through the house to the furnace, and rewired the furnace for a
dangling 120 V plug. Then I went to bed. About six AM my wife woke me
up and said it was getting pretty cold. So, I went out to the garage,
fired up the generator, plugged in the extension cords and powered the
furnace, refrigerator and freezer, and charged some cell phones and
flashlights. Ran it for about 90 minutes until all the appliances were
done. That afternoon it started to get cold again indoors, but I walked
around the neighborhood and some power contractors said they had our whole
area cleared of branches and downed wires, but they had no idea when the
power co. would turn on the feeder. Before I quite ready to start the
generator again, the power came back on.

So, in 12 years, we have used it exactly ONCE for a normal outage.
We have had a few other instances where our buried drop from the pole
burned up due to idiots digging around for other utilities, but I just
got the power co. out to fix it pretty quickly.

Now, depending where you are, your power may be a LOT less reliable than
ours.

Indeed, an umbrella that keeps the rain away!!!
Exactly what I've telling everyone, who pooh-poohed the idea of a generator,
being about 10 miles from Columbus fuknCircle/Manhattan!!
Really quite the actuarial problem: How much to spend on something that may
NEVER be needed?!!

But despite my proximity to The Center of the Universe, I've had surprising
numbers of outages, some over a day, and the Halloween/Irene things really
were unnerving -- even tho I miraculously escaped outages during those.
People in the NY/NJ/CT area were without power for *weeks* from the
halloween snow. 3,000,000 people affected.

I figgered $1k for some peace mind AND for something that could keep the
shop hobbling along, and that could also be used portably for whatever
whatever is not a bad actuarial deal.

What is surprising, tho, as Gunner said, Man, double the size you think
you'll need -- mebbe even triple it. I just realized that altho 7,000 watts
can handle a fair amount, it CANNOT handle the starting loads of the
compressor, unless the compressor is the main thing hooked up. And then it
would probably knock out any electronics hooked up.... dayum.....

Also, to hook up these generators even semi-correctly/ergonomically is no
mean feat, really quite the triathalon of carpentry for the noise, electic
hookups, pita plumbing (if tri-fuel/nat gas, about 50 feet of gas line), and
the tri-fuel mods/screwing around. For example, I gotta replace the muffler
to be able hook up an extension hose for exhaust, etc.
Even the sleuthing process, of stuff/companies/etc has been a mega time
investment..... I'm almost hoping for a major prolonged outage just to
make all this bull**** worthwhile!!!

Ultimately, you gotta pick the way you want to pay, but you WILL pay....
--
EA



Jon

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
... What is surprising, tho, as Gunner said, Man, double the size
you think you'll need -- mebbe even triple it. I just realized that
altho 7,000 watts can handle a fair amount, it CANNOT handle the
starting loads of the compressor, unless the compressor is the main
thing hooked up. And then it would probably knock out any
electronics hooked up.... dayum.....

My 3KW genny won't start my air compressors unless the tank is empty
or I loosen the pipe at the head.

jsw

"Gunner Asch" wrote
On Tue, 7 Aug 2012 13:08:58 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

wrote:

My 3KW genny won't start my air compressors unless the tank is empty
or I loosen the pipe at the head.
jsw

Keep in mind..that 3kw is about 13 amps at most.
Gunner

Not at 120V. The motor start current pegs the genny at about 25A
(analog Amprobe) at reduced voltage. I haven't left it on long enough
to take an accurate reading with a digital meter, or to pop the
breaker. The motor is regulated by its internal governor and I set it
for 135V no-load.

jsw

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Aug 2012 16:57:09 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Gunner Asch" wrote
On Tue, 7 Aug 2012 13:08:58 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

wrote:

My 3KW genny won't start my air compressors unless the tank is empty
or I loosen the pipe at the head.
jsw

Keep in mind..that 3kw is about 13 amps at most.
Gunner

Not at 120V. The motor start current pegs the genny at about 25A
(analog Amprobe) at reduced voltage. I haven't left it on long enough
to take an accurate reading with a digital meter, or to pop the
breaker. The motor is regulated by its internal governor and I set it
for 135V no-load.

jsw

Indeed. So the start current is 12+ amps higher than the 3kw that the
genny supplies.

Gunner

A 3KV generator supplies [3000/120] amps at 120 volts = 25 amps

ATP wrote:

A 3KV generator supplies [3000/120] amps at 120 volts = 25 amps


Generators don't like sudden changes in load. The engine has to add
additional energy to the rotor, and the speed drops until it does. A
small generator doesn't have enough mass in its rotor to maintain it's
speed to start a motor that's close to the rated output.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

ATP wrote:

A 3KV generator supplies [3000/120] amps at 120 volts = 25 amps


Generators don't like sudden changes in load. The engine has to add
additional energy to the rotor, and the speed drops until it does. A
small generator doesn't have enough mass in its rotor to maintain it's
speed to start a motor that's close to the rated output.

I understand that, still it's not correct to state that a 3 KV generator
only supplies 13 amps at 120 volts.

ATP wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

ATP wrote:

A 3KV generator supplies [3000/120] amps at 120 volts = 25 amps


Generators don't like sudden changes in load. The engine has to add
additional energy to the rotor, and the speed drops until it does. A
small generator doesn't have enough mass in its rotor to maintain it's
speed to start a motor that's close to the rated output.

I understand that, still it's not correct to state that a 3 KV generator
only supplies 13 amps at 120 volts.


A 13 KV generator supplies 13,000 Volts. ;-)

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

ATP wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

ATP wrote:

A 3KV generator supplies [3000/120] amps at 120 volts = 25 amps


Generators don't like sudden changes in load. The engine has to add
additional energy to the rotor, and the speed drops until it does. A
small generator doesn't have enough mass in its rotor to maintain it's
speed to start a motor that's close to the rated output.

I understand that, still it's not correct to state that a 3 KV generator
only supplies 13 amps at 120 volts.


A 13 KV generator supplies 13,000 Volts. ;-)

Sorry, KVA. Spent too much time in the sun on Sunday...

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Aug 2012 13:08:58 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
My 3KW genny won't start my air compressor unless the tank is
empty
or I loosen the pipe at the head.
jsw

Well it it wasnt starting..those 25 amps were not enough..were they?
Gunner

Trimmed to make the sequence clearer.

The 3KW generator starts three of my 1/2HP motors and my window A/C
only if they aren't loaded, i.e. with manual intervention. I tried a
neighbor's similar Powermate 6KW generator and found that it could
produce no more current at 120V, it seemed like two separate 3KW
windings in series to give 6KW at 240V.

jsw

Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Aug 2012 13:08:58 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
My 3KW genny won't start my air compressor unless the tank is
empty
or I loosen the pipe at the head.
jsw

Well it it wasnt starting..those 25 amps were not enough..were they?
Gunner

Trimmed to make the sequence clearer.

The 3KW generator starts three of my 1/2HP motors and my window A/C
only if they aren't loaded, i.e. with manual intervention. I tried a
neighbor's similar Powermate 6KW generator and found that it could
produce no more current at 120V, it seemed like two separate 3KW
windings in series to give 6KW at 240V.


Those old Coleman Powemates make HF stuff look like pure gold. My
dad bought one new. It would barely run his refigerator, and the thing
died with less than 200 hours use. The armatures on them were failing,
and the control circuit boards were burning up. There were lots of
people asking for help to fix them.

ATP wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

ATP wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

ATP wrote:

A 3KV generator supplies [3000/120] amps at 120 volts = 25 amps


Generators don't like sudden changes in load. The engine has to add
additional energy to the rotor, and the speed drops until it does. A
small generator doesn't have enough mass in its rotor to maintain it's
speed to start a motor that's close to the rated output.

I understand that, still it's not correct to state that a 3 KV generator
only supplies 13 amps at 120 volts.


A 13 KV generator supplies 13,000 Volts. ;-)

Sorry, KVA. Spent too much time in the sun on Sunday...


You need to be more careful. We already have to many insane people
around here. ;-)

On Tue, 7 Aug 2012 19:38:15 -0400, "ATP"
wrote:


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
om...

ATP wrote:

A 3KV generator supplies [3000/120] amps at 120 volts = 25 amps


Generators don't like sudden changes in load. The engine has to add
additional energy to the rotor, and the speed drops until it does. A
small generator doesn't have enough mass in its rotor to maintain it's
speed to start a motor that's close to the rated output.

I understand that, still it's not correct to state that a 3 KV generator
only supplies 13 amps at 120 volts.

It doesn't. As someone above demonstrates it supplies 25 amps, or at
least that is what the data plate says it will :-)

Cheers,
John B.

On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 12:12:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 7 Aug 2012 13:08:58 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
... What is surprising, tho, as Gunner said, Man, double the size
you think you'll need -- mebbe even triple it. I just realized that
altho 7,000 watts can handle a fair amount, it CANNOT handle the
starting loads of the compressor, unless the compressor is the main
thing hooked up. And then it would probably knock out any
electronics hooked up.... dayum.....

My 3KW genny won't start my air compressors unless the tank is empty
or I loosen the pipe at the head.

jsw

Keep in mind..that 3kw is about 13 amps at most.

Gunner

Depends on whether they are U.S. or foreign made. Chinese watts are
much smaller then American ones :-)
Cheers,
John B.

"John B." wrote in message
...
On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 12:12:10 -0700, Gunner Asch

Keep in mind..that 3kw is about 13 amps at most.
Gunner

Depends on whether they are U.S. or foreign made. Chinese watts are
much smaller then American ones :-)
Cheers,
John B.

3KW is ~13A at 240VAC.

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 00:41:11 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 11:24:46 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 12:12:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 7 Aug 2012 13:08:58 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
... What is surprising, tho, as Gunner said, Man, double the size
you think you'll need -- mebbe even triple it. I just realized that
altho 7,000 watts can handle a fair amount, it CANNOT handle the
starting loads of the compressor, unless the compressor is the main
thing hooked up. And then it would probably knock out any
electronics hooked up.... dayum.....

My 3KW genny won't start my air compressors unless the tank is empty
or I loosen the pipe at the head.

jsw

Keep in mind..that 3kw is about 13 amps at most.

Gunner

Depends on whether they are U.S. or foreign made. Chinese watts are
much smaller then American ones :-)
Cheers,
John B.

Like Sears Horsepower? G

Gunner

Almost the same but the Chinese ones have squinchy eyes.
Cheers,
John B.

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Aug 2012 13:08:58 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
My 3KW genny won't start my air compressor unless the tank is empty
or I loosen the pipe at the head.
jsw

Well it it wasnt starting..those 25 amps were not enough..were they?
Gunner

Trimmed to make the sequence clearer.

The 3KW generator starts three of my 1/2HP motors and my window A/C only
if they aren't loaded, i.e. with manual intervention. I tried a neighbor's
similar Powermate 6KW generator and found that it could produce no more
current at 120V, it seemed like two separate 3KW windings in series to
give 6KW at 240V.

jsw


http://mayberrys.com/honda/generator/html/120-240.htm

Did it have a 120/240 switch?

"ATP" wrote in message
...

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
The 3KW generator starts three of my 1/2HP motors and my window A/C
only if they aren't loaded, i.e. with manual intervention. I tried
a neighbor's similar Powermate 6KW generator and found that it
could produce no more current at 120V, it seemed like two separate
3KW windings in series to give 6KW at 240V.

jsw


http://mayberrys.com/honda/generator/html/120-240.htm

Did it have a 120/240 switch?

A 5KW generator that costs $2500 should know to start up -before- the
power fails.

The Powermates don't even have voltage regulators, they control engine
speed. AFAICT the windings are like a center-tapped transformer,
permanently connected at the neutral.