On 7/26/2012 9:26 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 20:53:02 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...Ever see a donut shop robbed?

Was it "Code of Silence" where robbers try to hold up the bar where
the off-duty cops hang out?

g Ayup. g


Have you heard of incidents where cops discharge huge numbers of rounds
with only a small percentage of hits? It happens all the time! I'm in
the process of getting certified to teach police and military. I have
cop friend that will sponsor me and have trained with him and others in
his department for over a year. Lots of cops don't care much about
shooting other than to pass their quals. The NRA has great programs for
them.

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
On 7/30/2012 6:41 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote:

I've heard plenty of "real gun owners" use "clip" for "box
magazine".
I've even heard a US Army gunnery sergeant use it.

But maybe you classify "real gun owner" as something other than
"person
who owns a real gun".

You didn't call it a 'gun' in the Army. It was a 'weapon',
which
they were quick to remind those who forgot. Usually followed by
20,
and having to recite: "This is my weapon, this my gun! One is for
shooting, the other is for fun!!!"

I've heard both "clip" and "mag" from experienced users. It's easier
to pick up a habit than to drop it, and beginners copy what they first
heard. In the military they may call all ground transportation
"vehicle" and anything that flies an "aircraft", including
helicopters. We discussed that a few years ago in
rec.aviation.military.

How careful are we to distinguish between motors and engines? There IS
a difference.

jsw

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
Have you heard of incidents where cops discharge huge numbers of
rounds with only a small percentage of hits?

"Suppressive Fire".

This shows the caualty rate per whole day when lines of standing
soldiers blasted away at each other at close range:
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/gabrmetz/table1.gif

In the American Civil War many of the weapons were as or more accurate
than modern pistols.

"Michael A. Terrell" on Mon, 30 Jul 2012
06:38:37 -0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

pyotr filipivich wrote:
That is what I've learned. It sucks, and you can't zoom up. I
don't want street view - most of the time it is not available where I
want to look. And getting "back" is non-intuitive.


I just use the - sign to back out of street view. You can pan and
tilt in street view, and zoom in to read most signs.

I'll give it a shot.
--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.

"Jim Wilkins" on Sat, 28 Jul 2012 15:20:57
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
.. .
"Jim Wilkins" on Sat, 28 Jul 2012 13:31:58

They recorded it with camera pods atop cars, not from helicopters.

Yeah, I know that. But if I zoom in close to the ground, say to
look and see if there is a sidewalk there, or what might be behind a
building , the default assumption is that I want the street view.
Which of course doesn't know about back alleys, side streets, or
what
I am looking for.

Well, the SR-71s are retired and satellites can orbit only so low.
Until Google deploys a drone fleet to surveil every street, rooftop
and backyard swimming pool you're stuck with horizontal car or
vertical satellite photos.

What I want is the over head shot. Even if I am "flying" down to
the limits of resolution - or even past it (when things get completely
pixilated)! - that is what I want. The overhead shot. Not the view
from the "nearest" road - which may be blocks or miles away - but
right "here".
What is "silly" (when it is not infuriating), is the attempts to
give me a "street level view" where there is no such view available.
In other words, now I'm standing on an aerial photograph.

The Snohomish (WA!) county assessor does it "right":

http://gis.snoco.org/output/Assessor...1962004586.jpg

http://gis.snoco.org/output/Assessor...1964536599.jpg

(Should be two views of a RR overpass, and a white and red truck.)

Just be happy they aren't scanning you with millimeter waves yet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millimeter_wave_scanner

Do you want tinfoil underwear to go with that beanie?

Nope. Because those tin-foil hats are part of the plot to gain
control over foolish people.

http://berkeley.intel-research.net/arahimi/helmet/


tschus
pyotr



--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.

Tom Gardner wrote:

As an NRA Instructor, we are not allowed to use the term "weapon". We
use "Firearm", "Sidearm", "Rifle", "Pistol", etc. "Weapon" has a
negative connotation and most of our instruction is geared to sport
shooters, just a small portion of our teaching is CCW. There are
thousands of NRA sport shooting events every year and the NRA's prime
directive is education in safety and these events.


They want you to call it a weapon, because that's its job in the
military. It isn't for collecting, or sport shooting. It's part of the
conditioning required to prepare you for battle, and they are trying to
break the link between military & civilian firearms.

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ...
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
On 7/30/2012 6:41 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote:

I've heard plenty of "real gun owners" use "clip" for "box
magazine".
I've even heard a US Army gunnery sergeant use it.

But maybe you classify "real gun owner" as something other than
"person
who owns a real gun".

You didn't call it a 'gun' in the Army. It was a 'weapon',
which
they were quick to remind those who forgot. Usually followed by
20,
and having to recite: "This is my weapon, this my gun! One is for
shooting, the other is for fun!!!"

I've heard both "clip" and "mag" from experienced users. It's easier
to pick up a habit than to drop it, and beginners copy what they first
heard. In the military they may call all ground transportation
"vehicle" and anything that flies an "aircraft", including
helicopters. We discussed that a few years ago in
rec.aviation.military.

How careful are we to distinguish between motors and engines? There IS
a difference.


It's commonly called a "clip" because it "clips" into place...

The term "magazine" in and of itself does not necessarily imply something that can be quickly separated from the rifle for reloading...for instance, instead of having a clip; pump shotguns, lever action and most bolt action-type rifles generally will have a tubular type magazine which, for all practical purposes; is permanently attached..

And FWIW, when *I* was in the military, range officers used the term "clip" almost exclusively.

On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 16:16:00 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


And FWIW, when *I* was in the military, range officers used the term "clip" almost exclusively.

Many shooters still do. From Wikipedia: "Due to popular usage of the
term clip interchangeably with magazine it now has the same meaning
and is defined as such" It's hilariously stupid of Gardner to think
that using the term is some great tell. Especially considering that he
listened to Bush say nookewler for years and it didn't bother him.
Hell I bet he says it that way as well. The guy writes like an 10 year
old but he's convinced he has this one great pearl of wisdom to offer.

On 7/30/2012 7:16 PM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:


And FWIW, when *I* was in the military, range officers used the term "clip" almost exclusively.


Prove it, blow-hard, know-nothing liar. You were NEVER in THIS
country's military and you know nothing about firearms.

"whoyakidding" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 16:16:00 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


And FWIW, when *I* was in the military, range officers used the term
"clip" almost exclusively.

Many shooters still do. From Wikipedia: "Due to popular usage of the
term clip interchangeably with magazine it now has the same meaning
and is defined as such" It's hilariously stupid of Gardner to think
that using the term is some great tell. Especially considering that he
listened to Bush say nookewler for years and it didn't bother him.
Hell I bet he says it that way as well. The guy writes like an 10 year
old but he's convinced he has this one great pearl of wisdom to offer.

Yup...

The other thing is, my time is too valuable to waste by responding to
mindless trolls and providing them with a detailed explanation about the
implications of letting the barrel get too warm...

On 7/30/2012 7:54 PM, whoyakidding wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 16:16:00 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


And FWIW, when *I* was in the military, range officers used the term "clip" almost exclusively.

Many shooters still do. From Wikipedia: "Due to popular usage of the
term clip interchangeably with magazine it now has the same meaning
and is defined as such" It's hilariously stupid of Gardner to think
that using the term is some great tell. Especially considering that he
listened to Bush say nookewler for years and it didn't bother him.
Hell I bet he says it that way as well. The guy writes like an 10 year
old but he's convinced he has this one great pearl of wisdom to offer.


Oh LOOKIE...libtard cheese-check boy sticks up for his lover, how cute!
Is that the best insult you can feebly cast? You should have smoked
less drugs in grade school before you were expelled and TRIED to be a
productive member of society but sadly, you became a leach on that same
society. Get somebody to help you compose a grown-up insult.

It IS a tell! You and your lover pretend to know things to impress
people. I especially like:


"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
...

"At a close range, I could probably easily pop most people 3 or 4 times with
most any pistol before they could get a single round off with their "assult
rifle" unless perhaps, they've had LOTS of practice firing from the hip."


Makes me want to run right out and get me an "assult" rifle" so I can be
cool like you and your buddy! I sure would LOVE to take that challenge
but I'm a pacifist, unlike you and your ilk.

You and your lover NEVER post anything on-topic that isn't complete
bull****. Why do you post here? Nobody believes your spew nor does
anybody respect a single thing you write.

OBTW you are both now in the bozo-bin so don't bother to respond.
Besides, your mommy shouldn't let you use her computer anyway. Go back
on the porch, puppy.

On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 20:37:24 -0400, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 7/30/2012 7:54 PM, whoyakidding wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 16:16:00 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


And FWIW, when *I* was in the military, range officers used the term "clip" almost exclusively.

Many shooters still do. From Wikipedia: "Due to popular usage of the
term clip interchangeably with magazine it now has the same meaning
and is defined as such" It's hilariously stupid of Gardner to think
that using the term is some great tell. Especially considering that he
listened to Bush say nookewler for years and it didn't bother him.
Hell I bet he says it that way as well. The guy writes like an 10 year
old but he's convinced he has this one great pearl of wisdom to offer.


Oh LOOKIE...libtard cheese-check boy sticks up for his lover, how cute!
Is that the best insult you can feebly cast? You should have smoked
less drugs in grade school before you were expelled and TRIED to be a
productive member of society but sadly, you became a leach on that same
society. Get somebody to help you compose a grown-up insult.

It IS a tell! You and your lover pretend to know things to impress
people. I especially like:


"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
...

"At a close range, I could probably easily pop most people 3 or 4 times with
most any pistol before they could get a single round off with their "assult
rifle" unless perhaps, they've had LOTS of practice firing from the hip."


Makes me want to run right out and get me an "assult" rifle" so I can be
cool like you and your buddy! I sure would LOVE to take that challenge
but I'm a pacifist, unlike you and your ilk.

You and your lover NEVER post anything on-topic that isn't complete
bull****. Why do you post here? Nobody believes your spew nor does
anybody respect a single thing you write.

OBTW you are both now in the bozo-bin so don't bother to respond.

Arf arf. You are such a transparent liar.

Besides, your mommy shouldn't let you use her computer anyway. Go back
on the porch, puppy.

As usual you're incapable of answering a word of the criticism which
is that getting ****y about often used terms is the kind of thing that
little kids do. And of course you can't stop yourself from taking it
down to the level of an eight year old with your hilariously stupid
and repetitive cheese check horse****... every ****ing time! How about
some video of those bulging veins? Man nobody is going to be surprised
when your fat ass strokes out. Your obit will read something like: he
was sitting there contentedly chewing his cud after a second pizza
when somebody made the mistake of asking about a hair clip in his
presence. And that was it, the straw that broke the hippo's back.

On 7/30/2012 12:36 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
Have you heard of incidents where cops discharge huge numbers of
rounds with only a small percentage of hits?

"Suppressive Fire".

This shows the caualty rate per whole day when lines of standing
soldiers blasted away at each other at close range:
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/gabrmetz/table1.gif

In the American Civil War many of the weapons were as or more accurate
than modern pistols.




Thanks, very interesting. It seems that as time went by and firearms
improved as well as the quantity of ammunition available, the
"spray-n-pray" method became more prevalent.

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...



anything that flies an "aircraft", including helicopters.

"fixed wing" vs "rotary wing" aircraft....

"whoyakidding" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 20:37:24 -0400, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 7/30/2012 7:54 PM, whoyakidding wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 16:16:00 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


And FWIW, when *I* was in the military, range officers used the term
"clip" almost exclusively.

Many shooters still do. From Wikipedia: "Due to popular usage of the
term clip interchangeably with magazine it now has the same meaning
and is defined as such" It's hilariously stupid of Gardner to think
that using the term is some great tell. Especially considering that he
listened to Bush say nookewler for years and it didn't bother him.
Hell I bet he says it that way as well. The guy writes like an 10 year
old but he's convinced he has this one great pearl of wisdom to offer.


Oh LOOKIE...libtard cheese-check boy sticks up for his lover, how cute!
Is that the best insult you can feebly cast? You should have smoked
less drugs in grade school before you were expelled and TRIED to be a
productive member of society but sadly, you became a leach on that same
society. Get somebody to help you compose a grown-up insult.

It IS a tell! You and your lover pretend to know things to impress
people. I especially like:


"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
...

"At a close range, I could probably easily pop most people 3 or 4 times
with
most any pistol before they could get a single round off with their
"assult
rifle" unless perhaps, they've had LOTS of practice firing from the hip."


Makes me want to run right out and get me an "assult" rifle" so I can be
cool like you and your buddy! I sure would LOVE to take that challenge
but I'm a pacifist, unlike you and your ilk.

You and your lover NEVER post anything on-topic that isn't complete
bull****. Why do you post here? Nobody believes your spew nor does
anybody respect a single thing you write.

OBTW you are both now in the bozo-bin so don't bother to respond.

Perhaps there really IS a God...

Arf arf. You are such a transparent liar.

Besides, your mommy shouldn't let you use her computer anyway. Go back
on the porch, puppy.

As usual you're incapable of answering a word of the criticism which
is that getting ****y about often used terms is the kind of thing that
little kids do. And of course you can't stop yourself from taking it
down to the level of an eight year old with your hilariously stupid
and repetitive cheese check horse****... every ****ing time! How about
some video of those bulging veins? Man nobody is going to be surprised
when your fat ass strokes out. Your obit will read something like: he
was sitting there contentedly chewing his cud after a second pizza
when somebody made the mistake of asking about a hair clip in his
presence. And that was it, the straw that broke the hippo's back.

On 07/30/2012 07:26 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

There was a litany of canned responses for calling a sergeant "Sir".

Primarily he would answer "Don't call me Sir, I WORK for a living!"

I was a Specialist 5 (~tech sergeant) and was also supposed to say
"Don't call me Sergeant, I can read and write!".


I used "Don't call me Sergeant, my parents were married!"


technomaNge
--

technomaNge wrote:

On 07/30/2012 07:26 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

There was a litany of canned responses for calling a sergeant "Sir".

Primarily he would answer "Don't call me Sir, I WORK for a living!"

I was a Specialist 5 (~tech sergeant) and was also supposed to say
"Don't call me Sergeant, I can read and write!".


I used "Don't call me Sergeant, my parents were married!"


"Sir? Am I on a golf course?"

In article , says...

On 7/30/2012 4:24 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , says...

On 7/28/2012 12:27 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:

On 7/28/2012 1:18 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

That was obvious when he said 'the barrel would get warm' in response
to 'what would a burst of 100 rounds do to a rifle barrel'.


Since he never knows what he's blithering about, you'd think he could
Google a few things as not to look like a total idiot ALL the time. But
nope...he's even too stupid to do that.


Firing short bursts was the first thing drilled into you in the
military, so you didn't damage the barrel. Idiots see Hollywood special
effects with hundreds of rounds being fired, non stop from one weapon
and think it's real.


Have you EVER heard a real gun owner use the word "clip" for a box
magazine? THAT'S the true mark of a non gun owner. So, we all KNOW how
full of **** he is about this topic too. Typical lying libtard!

I've heard plenty of "real gun owners" use "clip" for "box magazine".
I've even heard a US Army gunnery sergeant use it.

But maybe you classify "real gun owner" as something other than "person
who owns a real gun".



Clips ARE used by the military, most rifle ammunition is packed and
shipped on clips. Maybe you herd the term used correctly. Plenty of
military people in my family and none would make the mistake of using
the term interchangeably . You can stick up for the idiot, your choice.
There are plenty of other clues that he is a liar, he trips up in
almost every thing he posts.

The sergeant was telling me not to put the box magazine in a .22 at the
time that he called it a clip, so, no, it was not a stripper clip. The
simple fact is that real experts are often far less pedantic about
nomenclature than online wannabees.

In article , Mars@Tacks
says...

On 7/30/2012 12:36 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
Have you heard of incidents where cops discharge huge numbers of
rounds with only a small percentage of hits?

"Suppressive Fire".

This shows the caualty rate per whole day when lines of standing
soldiers blasted away at each other at close range:
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/gabrmetz/table1.gif

In the American Civil War many of the weapons were as or more accurate
than modern pistols.




Thanks, very interesting. It seems that as time went by and firearms
improved as well as the quantity of ammunition available, the
"spray-n-pray" method became more prevalent.

That chart doesn't tell you anything about "spray and pray". Imagine
Napoleon marching one of his immense tightly packed formations into the
field of fire of a couple of miniguns. Spray 10 rounds a second at that
kind of target and there's no need for prayr.

The reason the casualty rates started dropping afte the Civil War
doesn't have anything to do with "spray and pray". It has to do with a
change in tactics, and that change in tactics came about because of a
change in technology.

In the Napoleonic wars and the Civil War the primary infantry weapon was
a muzzle-loader. The ones in the Civil War were rifled and more
accurate than Napoleon's but had the same limitation, which is that one
has to stand to load them. If one has convenient cover (a tree to duck
behind for example, or a trench with a firing step) then one can load
with safety. If one does not have convenient cover then one has to just
stand there in the middle of the battlefield presenting a target while
one reloads.

After the Civil War muzzle loaders were abandoned in favor of breech
loaders, which allow one to load in just about any position, thus
allowing soldiers to crouch or lie prone and present a much smaller
target. Also doctrine changed due to lessons learned in the Civil War
(one of which is that marching big battalions into the field of fire of
a prepared position against rifle and artillery fire is suicidal) and in
WWI much of the activity was in the slow dance of prepared positions,
moving the trenches back and forth, and there were more casualties from
the diseases inherent in living in a trench than from enemy action, not
because anyone "sprayed and prayed", but because far fewer soldiers
presented themselves as easy targets.

After the Civil War the development of mobile radio changed things
again, with infantry no longer slugging it out with hand-held weapons
but serving a scouting function, and calling in artillery and air assets
when contact is made. Infantry tends to keep much wider separation and
try to avoid being seen, so again fewer and more difficult targets.

Now you can't even tell who the enemy is until he starts shooting at
you.

On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 12:36:23 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
Have you heard of incidents where cops discharge huge numbers of
rounds with only a small percentage of hits?

"Suppressive Fire".

This shows the caualty rate per whole day when lines of standing
soldiers blasted away at each other at close range:
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/gabrmetz/table1.gif

In the American Civil War many of the weapons were as or more accurate
than modern pistols.

The American Civil War was the first war fought with rifled weapons
which were far more accurate then smooth bore weapons but more
importantly were accurate of a much longer distance.

Using smooth bore muskets you could probably assume that you would hit
the man you aimed at 50 yards but beyond that odds of a hit decreased
rapidly. The standard of accuracy of the Springfield Rifled Musket, on
the other hand was 10 out of 10 shots on a one foot square at 200
yards.

Which meant that while marching a body of troops toward an apposing
enemy armed with muskets was a relatively safe practice and the
standard tactic of marching a group straight toward the enemy until
you reached a distance of about 50 yards, firing a volley and then
charging with the bayonet was usually successful. On the other hand
faced with a weapon that was capable of hitting a man at 200 yards, or
more, meant that by the time you reached the 50 yard point a
substantial percentage of your troops were dead or wounded.

Cheers,
John B.

On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 16:16:00 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ...
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
On 7/30/2012 6:41 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote:

I've heard plenty of "real gun owners" use "clip" for "box
magazine".
I've even heard a US Army gunnery sergeant use it.

But maybe you classify "real gun owner" as something other than
"person
who owns a real gun".

You didn't call it a 'gun' in the Army. It was a 'weapon',
which
they were quick to remind those who forgot. Usually followed by
20,
and having to recite: "This is my weapon, this my gun! One is for
shooting, the other is for fun!!!"

I've heard both "clip" and "mag" from experienced users. It's easier
to pick up a habit than to drop it, and beginners copy what they first
heard. In the military they may call all ground transportation
"vehicle" and anything that flies an "aircraft", including
helicopters. We discussed that a few years ago in
rec.aviation.military.

How careful are we to distinguish between motors and engines? There IS
a difference.


It's commonly called a "clip" because it "clips" into place...

Hardly. It is called a clip because that was a device used to load a
rifle up through WW II and out of date terms are frequently used long
after they have been replaced by more accurate or descriptive terms.

The term "magazine" in and of itself does not necessarily imply something that can be quickly separated from the rifle for reloading...for instance, instead of having a clip; pump shotguns, lever action and most bolt action-type rifles generally will have a tubular type magazine which, for all practical purposes; is permanently attached..

And FWIW, when *I* was in the military, range officers used the term "clip" almost exclusively.

So? I was in the Service for a while and heard people using terms that
were incorrect - bullet for cartridge, motor for engine, six-by for
truck, Tug for tractor (used to tow airplanes), "Leg" or "Straight
Leg" for common infantry, and on and on. Hardly proof that any of the
terms were correct.

Cheers,
John B.

"Tom Gardner" Mars@Tacks wrote in message
...
... Thanks, very interesting. It seems that as time went by and
firearms improved as well as the quantity of ammunition available,
the "spray-n-pray" method became more prevalent.

The real goal of armies is to conquer territory. Chasing the enemy
away is as effective for that as killing them.

"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
anything that flies is an "aircraft", including helicopters.

"fixed wing" vs "rotary wing" aircraft....

We asked pilots what they called their rides, expecting then to answer
"Chopper" or "Helo". There wasn't really a consensus but "aircraft"
was common.

jsw

"technomaNge" wrote in message
...
I used "Don't call me Sergeant, my parents were married!"

That automatically disqualifies you from the Marine Corps.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote
technomaNge wrote:
On 07/30/2012 07:26 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
There was a litany of canned responses for calling a sergeant
"Sir".
Primarily he would answer "Don't call me Sir, I WORK for a
living!"

I was a Specialist 5 (~tech sergeant) and was also supposed to
say
"Don't call me Sergeant, I can read and write!".

I used "Don't call me Sergeant, my parents were married!"

"Sir? Am I on a golf course?"

Ft Monmouth was called "The Golf Course of the Army".

And we were the caddys and groundskeepers.

jsw

Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote
technomaNge wrote:
On 07/30/2012 07:26 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
There was a litany of canned responses for calling a sergeant
"Sir".
Primarily he would answer "Don't call me Sir, I WORK for a
living!"

I was a Specialist 5 (~tech sergeant) and was also supposed to
say
"Don't call me Sergeant, I can read and write!".

I used "Don't call me Sergeant, my parents were married!"

"Sir? Am I on a golf course?"

Ft Monmouth was called "The Golf Course of the Army".

And we were the caddys and groundskeepers.


I was never at Monmoth. I was stationed at Knox, Rucker & Greely.

On Tue, 31 Jul 2012 06:45:56 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"technomaNge" wrote in message
...
I used "Don't call me Sergeant, my parents were married!"

That automatically disqualifies you from the Marine Corps.

And thank God for those *******s of ours!

--
When we are planning for posterity, we ought
to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
-- Thomas Paine

(comparing Paine to the current CONgress deep sigh)

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 31 Jul 2012 06:13:30 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

wrote:

The real goal of armies is to conquer territory. Chasing the enemy
away is as effective for that as killing them.


Nearly a quote from Sun Tzu! Well done!

Gunner

Maybe. I read it and Clausewitz a long time ago.

On 7/31/2012 3:45 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 20:13:59 -0400, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 7/30/2012 7:16 PM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:


And FWIW, when *I* was in the military, range officers used the term "clip" almost exclusively.

So he carried a Garand or Springfield..no big deal. Lots of ancient old
guys were issued them.




Prove it, blow-hard, know-nothing liar. You were NEVER in THIS
country's military and you know nothing about firearms.

gummer was never in this country's military, either.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Jim Wilkins wrote:

Ft Monmouth was called "The Golf Course of the Army".
And we were the caddys and groundskeepers.

I was never at Monmoth. I was stationed at Knox, Rucker & Greely.

The best part was that we had no notes or homework to study and I
could spend weekends exploring NYC. The USO had a small number of free
tickets for GIs. Rock concert and sports tickets went fast, but not
Broadway shows. Sadly I didn't bother to see two shows I would later
work on and enjoy, 1776 and Jacques Brel.

John Adams:
"I have come to the conclusion that one useless man is called a
disgrace; that two are called a law firm, and that three or more
become a Congress!"

At that time Canal Street was electronic surplus heaven. Greenwich
Village had faded and was disappointing.

jsw

Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Jim Wilkins wrote:

Ft Monmouth was called "The Golf Course of the Army".
And we were the caddys and groundskeepers.

I was never at Monmoth. I was stationed at Knox, Rucker & Greely.

The best part was that we had no notes or homework to study and I
could spend weekends exploring NYC. The USO had a small number of free
tickets for GIs. Rock concert and sports tickets went fast, but not
Broadway shows. Sadly I didn't bother to see two shows I would later
work on and enjoy, 1776 and Jacques Brel.

John Adams:
"I have come to the conclusion that one useless man is called a
disgrace; that two are called a law firm, and that three or more
become a Congress!"

At that time Canal Street was electronic surplus heaven. Greenwich
Village had faded and was disappointing.


I bought surplus from dealers on Canal street from their magazine
ads.

When I was at Ft Rucker we had three GIs in one slot, so if nothing
was scheduled I didn't have to even show up. I asked one Monday if I
could take off a couple hors the next day to tune up my GTO while the
DIY garage on base was open. They told me to let the first sergeant
know where I could be reached, then told me to take the rest of the week
off, if I wanted to. I was only three months ahead of schedule on my PM
schedule. ;-)

At Ft. Greely, I could ride the shuttle bus into Fairbanks any
weekday that I wasn't on duty. It was 105 miles, one way for a couple
hours in the 'big city', but it was away from the base and you could get
a pizza. There was one electronics wholesaler there, but I could
usually buy it cheaper in Ohio & have it mailed to me than to pay their
outrageous prices. ;-)

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote

At Ft. Greely, I could ride the shuttle bus into Fairbanks any
weekday that I wasn't on duty. It was 105 miles, one way for a
couple
hours in the 'big city', but it was away from the base and you could
get
a pizza.

They must have sited some of their bases where nothing will grow out
of the ground except painted rocks.

On 7/31/2012 8:10 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Jim Wilkins wrote:

Ft Monmouth was called "The Golf Course of the Army".
And we were the caddys and groundskeepers.

I was never at Monmoth. I was stationed at Knox, Rucker & Greely.

The best part was that we had no notes or homework to study and I
could spend weekends exploring NYC. The USO had a small number of free
tickets for GIs. Rock concert and sports tickets went fast, but not
Broadway shows. Sadly I didn't bother to see two shows I would later
work on and enjoy, 1776 and Jacques Brel.

John Adams:
"I have come to the conclusion that one useless man is called a
disgrace; that two are called a law firm, and that three or more
become a Congress!"

At that time Canal Street was electronic surplus heaven. Greenwich
Village had faded and was disappointing.


I bought surplus from dealers on Canal street from their magazine
ads.

When I was at Ft Rucker we had three GIs in one slot, so if nothing
was scheduled I didn't have to even show up. I asked one Monday if I
could take off a couple hors the next day to tune up my GTO while the
DIY garage on base was open. They told me to let the first sergeant
know where I could be reached, then told me to take the rest of the week
off, if I wanted to. I was only three months ahead of schedule on my PM
schedule. ;-)

At Ft. Greely, I could ride the shuttle bus into Fairbanks any
weekday that I wasn't on duty. It was 105 miles, one way for a couple
hours in the 'big city', but it was away from the base and you could get
a pizza. There was one electronics wholesaler there, but I could
usually buy it cheaper in Ohio & have it mailed to me than to pay their
outrageous prices. ;-)

When were you at Ft. Greely? I knew a guy who was posted there sometime
around 1967.

Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote

At Ft. Greely, I could ride the shuttle bus into Fairbanks any
weekday that I wasn't on duty. It was 105 miles, one way for a
couple hours in the 'big city', but it was away from the base and
you could get a pizza.

They must have sited some of their bases where nothing will grow out
of the ground except painted rocks.


Greely was the US Army cold weather test site. Most of the year you
couldn't find the rocks. It is the only base name that was used at two
different locations that I've found. It was built during W.W. II as the
transfer point for American built planes to be transferred to the
Russians under the Lend Lease program. At that time it was attached to
the Army Air Corps, then later to the Air Force. It was closed for a
while, then reopened as an Army base. It also had a small nuclear
reactor. It only had two companies stationed there. It was closed a
second time, and is being converted to a new missile base.

Max Boot wrote:

On 7/31/2012 8:10 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Jim Wilkins wrote:

Ft Monmouth was called "The Golf Course of the Army".
And we were the caddys and groundskeepers.

I was never at Monmoth. I was stationed at Knox, Rucker & Greely.

The best part was that we had no notes or homework to study and I
could spend weekends exploring NYC. The USO had a small number of free
tickets for GIs. Rock concert and sports tickets went fast, but not
Broadway shows. Sadly I didn't bother to see two shows I would later
work on and enjoy, 1776 and Jacques Brel.

John Adams:
"I have come to the conclusion that one useless man is called a
disgrace; that two are called a law firm, and that three or more
become a Congress!"

At that time Canal Street was electronic surplus heaven. Greenwich
Village had faded and was disappointing.


I bought surplus from dealers on Canal street from their magazine
ads.

When I was at Ft Rucker we had three GIs in one slot, so if nothing
was scheduled I didn't have to even show up. I asked one Monday if I
could take off a couple hors the next day to tune up my GTO while the
DIY garage on base was open. They told me to let the first sergeant
know where I could be reached, then told me to take the rest of the week
off, if I wanted to. I was only three months ahead of schedule on my PM
schedule. ;-)

At Ft. Greely, I could ride the shuttle bus into Fairbanks any
weekday that I wasn't on duty. It was 105 miles, one way for a couple
hours in the 'big city', but it was away from the base and you could get
a pizza. There was one electronics wholesaler there, but I could
usually buy it cheaper in Ohio & have it mailed to me than to pay their
outrageous prices. ;-)

When were you at Ft. Greely? I knew a guy who was posted there sometime
around 1967.

73/74

On 7/31/2012 6:45 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 20:13:59 -0400, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 7/30/2012 7:16 PM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:


And FWIW, when *I* was in the military, range officers used the term "clip" almost exclusively.

So he carried a Garand or Springfield..no big deal. Lots of ancient old
guys were issued them.



He didn't say he was in the *US* military, did he? He might have been
in an enemy military since he never lost his hate for the US.

I hate Thunderbird, the filter doesn't always catch the Bozos and i
can't just leave the lying Libtards alone. I haven't seen TMT in a long
time but these two idjuts pop up on occasion. I made some changes and I
"think" I have the filter right now,

Gunner Asch on Tue, 31 Jul 2012 03:45:14 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 20:13:59 -0400, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 7/30/2012 7:16 PM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:


And FWIW, when *I* was in the military, range officers used the term "clip" almost exclusively.

So he carried a Garand or Springfield..no big deal. Lots of ancient old
guys were issued them.

Why when I was in they referred to it as the "cartridge box".
--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.

On Tue, 31 Jul 2012 12:21:15 -0400, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

I hate Thunderbird,

Yeah there's a real shortage of free newsreaders. Arf arf From your
dilemma we might be able to figure out your mental age... not old
enough to think of more than a couple of juvenile insults or to afford
a proper newsreader or to download and install a different free one.

the filter doesn't always catch the Bozos and i
can't just leave the lying Libtards alone. I haven't seen TMT in a long
time but these two idjuts pop up on occasion. I made some changes and I
"think" I have the filter right now,

Whoyakidding? Just because your filter doesn't catch something that
doesn't mean you have to read it or respond to it! You blaming your
filters for making you read and respond is as idiotic as Gunner
blaming his wife for 30 years of ****ing over his creditors.

Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks on Mon, 30 Jul 2012 21:40:19 -0400 typed in
rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On 7/30/2012 12:36 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
Have you heard of incidents where cops discharge huge numbers of
rounds with only a small percentage of hits?

"Suppressive Fire".

This shows the caualty rate per whole day when lines of standing
soldiers blasted away at each other at close range:
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/gabrmetz/table1.gif

In the American Civil War many of the weapons were as or more accurate
than modern pistols.

Thanks, very interesting. It seems that as time went by and firearms
improved as well as the quantity of ammunition available, the
"spray-n-pray" method became more prevalent.

They weren't suppose to "spray and pray", but "service the
target".
The theory is that volume of accurately delivered rifle fire is
what counts, hence the development of the box magazine and bolt
action. The Automatic Self-loading Rifle (M-1 etc) meant that
non-rifle men (the majority of soldiers) could provide that
"accurately delivered rifle fire" with less need to spend lots of time
drilling bolt manipulation into their heads.
Full auto - more of the same.

Given the necessary skills, and the time for development to their
peak, I could use a 22 short derringer pistol, because I could put
both shorts in their eye sockets. Or I could use an M-4 "carbine" and
put 3 in the center of mass, and spend my time pitching woo, or some
other way of investing my time.

--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.

"J. Clarke" on Tue, 31 Jul 2012 03:06:28 -0400
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
In article , Mars@Tacks
says...

On 7/30/2012 12:36 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
Have you heard of incidents where cops discharge huge numbers of
rounds with only a small percentage of hits?

"Suppressive Fire".

This shows the caualty rate per whole day when lines of standing
soldiers blasted away at each other at close range:
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/gabrmetz/table1.gif

In the American Civil War many of the weapons were as or more accurate
than modern pistols.




Thanks, very interesting. It seems that as time went by and firearms
improved as well as the quantity of ammunition available, the
"spray-n-pray" method became more prevalent.

That chart doesn't tell you anything about "spray and pray". Imagine
Napoleon marching one of his immense tightly packed formations into the
field of fire of a couple of miniguns. Spray 10 rounds a second at that
kind of target and there's no need for prayr.

The reason the casualty rates started dropping afte the Civil War
doesn't have anything to do with "spray and pray". It has to do with a
change in tactics, and that change in tactics came about because of a
change in technology.

In the Napoleonic wars and the Civil War the primary infantry weapon was
a muzzle-loader. The ones in the Civil War were rifled and more
accurate than Napoleon's but had the same limitation, which is that one
has to stand to load them. If one has convenient cover (a tree to duck
behind for example, or a trench with a firing step) then one can load
with safety. If one does not have convenient cover then one has to just
stand there in the middle of the battlefield presenting a target while
one reloads.

After the Civil War muzzle loaders were abandoned in favor of breech
loaders, which allow one to load in just about any position, thus
allowing soldiers to crouch or lie prone and present a much smaller
target. Also doctrine changed due to lessons learned in the Civil War
(one of which is that marching big battalions into the field of fire of
a prepared position against rifle and artillery fire is suicidal) and in
WWI much of the activity was in the slow dance of prepared positions,
moving the trenches back and forth, and there were more casualties from
the diseases inherent in living in a trench than from enemy action, not
because anyone "sprayed and prayed", but because far fewer soldiers
presented themselves as easy targets.

Not to be too pedantic, but the MG did "spray" and pray. as well
as the arty.

Both the American Civil War, and the Great War, are examples of
technology outstripping the tactical doctrine. What made the American
war so bloody was using Napoleonic tactics against the new technology
of rifled barrel and Minie ball. Likewise in France, tactics which
worked against a rifle armed enemy, did not fare so well against one
armed with MG and able to call down accurate rapid firing artillery.

After the Civil War the development of mobile radio changed things
again, with infantry no longer slugging it out with hand-held weapons
but serving a scouting function, and calling in artillery and air assets
when contact is made. Infantry tends to keep much wider separation and
try to avoid being seen, so again fewer and more difficult targets.

Now you can't even tell who the enemy is until he starts shooting at
you.

And with the invention of "smokeless" powders, it is even harder
to tell where he is.

Kids these days, we should have stuck with rocks!

pyotr


--
pyotr filipivich
Old farts these days - not like when I was a boy! We used to
have us Real Geezers in those days! Now, they'll let anybody
with a little gray hair be an old fart!