On Thu, 10 May 2012 21:10:35 -0400, "Stephen B."
wrote:

"Tom Gardner" wrote
On 5/10/2012 2:23 PM, Existential Angst wrote:



I would like to see ANYBODY cut 2" x .049" wall tube with a tube
cutter. It seems that politics overrides physics...loudly.

Hech, you can cut schedule 40 iron pipe with a "pipe cutter" which is
just a heavy duty tube cutter. I think Sched 80 is done the same way.

I might not be able to supply video, but 2" emt with 0.065 walls can
be cut.

you might want to check out your local electrical supplier for
tools...

I can see
http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/122-Copp...e/EN/index.htm
being useful (but not cheap) both for cutting and cleaning at the same
station. might not be enough of a chamfer for you.

page 6 of the manual says up to 0.065 SS.wall thickness. all you would
need to do is set up a stop at the right location.

I don't know how you never got exposed to how things are done outside your
facility, but tubing cutters have been for generations, and are still
routinely used for cutting steel and other metal tubing.

Automotive brake lines/hydraulic tubing , EMT thin/heavy wall, exaust
tubing, thin sink drain tubes and multiple other uses.
Tubing cutters are used for one-off jobs, construction trades and production
shop cutting of all sorts of tube sizes.

I've frequently used common single-cutter tubing cutters for small EMT
thinwall, and single-cutter pipe cutters for larger EMT.. which is the same
method used in auto/truck exaust shops.

Works the same for bright plated sink drain pipes.

I dunno WTF your problem is with implying that tubing isn't cut with a
tubing cutter, or the difficulty of figuring out how to cut tubing.. which
is just sheetmetal FFS.

There aren't a lot of complicated issues involved.. the thin cutter disc
displaces the material and the wall weakens to a point where it separates.
Deburring is what it is, which makes having the job done outside for $.50
each fairly cheap.

For doing lots of pieces, the only practical way would be to cut off the
pieces while rotating the full length tube (properly supported by rollers
along it's length), but that doesn't mean a lathe.. a 1/2 HP motor and some
speed reduction would likely be more than adequate.
I don't think a sharp disk would make the best cut, but it would be cheaper
than a thin abrasive disk that cuts thru the wall only as the tube is
rotating (a chop saw is a lot more wasteful as far as the kerf width and
time).

A fairly intelligent HSM could fabricate a machine setup such as this, able
to handle various sizes of tubing and adjustable, repeatable lengths.
Additionally being able to debur/chamfer at least one end of each workpiece
could be integrated into the machine without too much difficulty.

All your self-righteous compassion BS about supporting US jobs apparently
doesn't apply to supporting workers in other US shops, such as the one that
cuts your custom parts to your specs.

Halve it your way.

--
WB
..........


"Tom Gardner" mars@tacks wrote in message
...
On 5/10/2012 2:23 PM, Existential Angst wrote:

You just have to ask yourself what kind of a moron would ask if a tubing
cutter could be used for cutting off tubing to begin with....
=================================================

I would like to see ANYBODY cut 2" x .049" wall tube with a tube cutter.
It seems that politics overrides physics...loudly.

"Tom Gardner" mars@tacks wrote in message
...
...
I would like to see ANYBODY cut 2" x .049" wall tube with a tube
cutter.

Exhaust pipe cutters work well.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...500_AA300_.jpg
http://www.diseno-art.com/images_3/e...ipe_cutter.jpg

jsw

On 5/11/2012 5:36 AM, Wild_Bill wrote:
snip
Halve it your way.


Good one!

1/2 of 1% gets cut in house, it's just a PITA. I've see the operation at
the the commercial cutter, they do it with a parting tool on a machine
that supports the tube from the inside and the outside, it's like a big
lathe with all automatic operations. The ID is chamfered with a reamer
type tool and the OD is chamfered with a grinding operation on another
machine. They WILL do the shorter lengths but with a 8-10 week lead
time. We also use miles of thicker tube, .062" wall that is no problem
with custom lengths cut in house but the .049" wall is delicate by
comparison and any imperfection will cause it to accordion or not swage
properly. When that happens it almost no worth recovering the parts.

I thought it was an interesting challenge and that maybe someone had
magic. I had no idea what it would turn into. I guess that RCM is
tuned to other things, too bad. But, most people DID offer good ideas
in the spirit of the old, old RCM.

So, my conclusion is to bite the bullet with the lead time from the
commercial cutter and keep shorter pieces on the shelf.

On Fri, 11 May 2012 09:40:52 -0400, Tom Gardner mars@tacks wrote:

On 5/11/2012 5:36 AM, Wild_Bill wrote:
snip
Halve it your way.


Good one!

1/2 of 1% gets cut in house, it's just a PITA. I've see the operation at
the the commercial cutter, they do it with a parting tool on a machine
that supports the tube from the inside and the outside, it's like a big
lathe with all automatic operations. The ID is chamfered with a reamer
type tool and the OD is chamfered with a grinding operation on another
machine. They WILL do the shorter lengths but with a 8-10 week lead
time. We also use miles of thicker tube, .062" wall that is no problem
with custom lengths cut in house but the .049" wall is delicate by
comparison and any imperfection will cause it to accordion or not swage
properly. When that happens it almost no worth recovering the parts.

I thought it was an interesting challenge and that maybe someone had
magic. I had no idea what it would turn into. I guess that RCM is
tuned to other things, too bad. But, most people DID offer good ideas
in the spirit of the old, old RCM.

So, my conclusion is to bite the bullet with the lead time from the
commercial cutter and keep shorter pieces on the shelf.

Cutting thin-wall tubing cleanly is always a challenge, and you
probably have seen the rotating-head, multi-cutter machines that are
used for that work in production. I think Bardons & Oliver pioneered
the machine type many years ago. They have tight-fitting collets and
the tools cut almost at the collet face, Swiss screw-machine style, to
avoid distortion.

I don't know of any "magic" ways to do it. I would try emulating the
production machines in terms of tight collets and a cutoff tool
working as close to that collet face as possible (the production
machines generally use multiple cotters). If you're going to chamfer
the inside, the collet is essential, I would think, to avoid
bell-mouthing the workpiece.

--
Ed Huntress

Parting is such sweet sorrow?

(Sounds like a lot of work. I've done enough tubing cutting over the years.
I've recently tried to do double flare for auto brake work, and that's
totally a lot of work.)

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Tom Gardner" mars@tacks wrote in message
...
On 5/11/2012 5:36 AM, Wild_Bill wrote:
snip
Halve it your way.


Good one!

1/2 of 1% gets cut in house, it's just a PITA. I've see the operation at
the the commercial cutter, they do it with a parting tool on a machine
that supports the tube from the inside and the outside, it's like a big
lathe with all automatic operations.

On Thu, 10 May 2012 21:07:34 -0400, Tom Gardner mars@tacks wrote:


You suggest I buy a HF piece of HF machinery for a test?

If you were the successful business man you claim then normally I'd
suggest you buy something at least as nice as I have which was brand
name and about $350 about 5 years ago. I didn't give that expense a
second thought which must be quite the mystery to you. Now it's
confirmed that I made the right decision and I know what the machine
can do and I can recommend it as a good investment for any serious
shop no matter if it's needed for some particular job or just to have
for the next time it will come in handy. But in your case I recommend
that you keep blubbering instead.

They just
don't last, almost nothing they have is industrial rated.

Nobody mentioned anything about HF and your strawman is as ridiculous
as your other exaggerations.

I'm sure

I'm sure you can make up excuses until the cows come home.

it's
a very loud operation and won't do any better than cutting 6-off on a
bandsaw. How about I send you a tube and a check for your time to cut
so I can see if it's any better or faster?

I have various sizes of tubing on hand already but I don't need to run
any tests to know how long it would take to make your parts and how
many fewer steps than your goofball methods it would be. And I
wouldn't work for a dick like you for any price. I'm shocked I tell
you shocked that a windbag know nothing about politics turns out to be
a windbag know nothing about simple shop operations. The bottom line
is that your cuts are the area of 1/2"! solid rod and like I said I
agree that you need a lathe for heavy stuff like that. You shouldn't
even try it on anything less than 10hp and for ****s sake make sure
it's INDUSTRIAL rated.

On Fri, 11 May 2012 09:40:52 -0400, Tom Gardner mars@tacks wrote:

I guess that RCM is
tuned to other things, too bad.

Yeah and what a bunch of losers that post that other ****. Did you
know there's one arsehole that has the same name as you and claims
that anyone that doesn't agree with his horse**** has never worked a
day in their lives? You should tell THAT guy how much he's done to
turn RCM into what it is.

On Thu, 10 May 2012 20:44:07 -0400, Tom Gardner mars@tacks wrote:

On 5/10/2012 1:50 PM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

You just have to ask yourself what kind of a moron would ask if a tubing cutter could be used for cutting off tubing to begin with....

So, not only is he a right wing nut-case and one of the biggest assholes I've ever had the displeasure of dealing with on usenet

stay off my
threads

Yeah PrecisionmachinisT it's TOM GARDNER'S thread and you commented
without his approval! Who the **** do you think you are?

Maybe what would benefit your assembly operation the most is a new/better
method of press-forming the short tubular sections (grommet-like
connector?).

The outside shop's machines are likely very efficient at what they do.. even
if you could produce the parts in 3-5x the amount of time the other shop's
machines can do them, I doubt that you could realistically save that 50
cents.

You can be sure that RCM will continue to deteriorate with more of the
off-topic BS as long as those who keep participating in the non-metalworking
BS threads keep trying to accomplish something by responding.

I choose not to read off-topic posts.. if I want misinformation about
history or current events, I can always check out MSM mainstream media.
The Delete key works fine.

When folks here stop participating in fanatic ideology worship and hate
mongering posts, this newsgroup will attract and retain metalworking
enthusiasts with a wide variety of backgrounds and experience.

--
WB
..........


"Tom Gardner" mars@tacks wrote in message
...
On 5/11/2012 5:36 AM, Wild_Bill wrote:
snip
Halve it your way.


Good one!

1/2 of 1% gets cut in house, it's just a PITA. I've see the operation at
the the commercial cutter, they do it with a parting tool on a machine
that supports the tube from the inside and the outside, it's like a big
lathe with all automatic operations. The ID is chamfered with a reamer
type tool and the OD is chamfered with a grinding operation on another
machine. They WILL do the shorter lengths but with a 8-10 week lead time.
We also use miles of thicker tube, .062" wall that is no problem with
custom lengths cut in house but the .049" wall is delicate by comparison
and any imperfection will cause it to accordion or not swage properly.
When that happens it almost no worth recovering the parts.

I thought it was an interesting challenge and that maybe someone had
magic. I had no idea what it would turn into. I guess that RCM is tuned
to other things, too bad. But, most people DID offer good ideas in the
spirit of the old, old RCM.

So, my conclusion is to bite the bullet with the lead time from the
commercial cutter and keep shorter pieces on the shelf.

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
.. .
Parting is such sweet sorrow?


You're going to hell for that one!

On May 9, 5:21*pm, Tom Gardner mars@tacks wrote:
We use 2" x .049 wall tube cut 4" and deburred. *We also use three
shorter lengths but in small quantities. *I usually get 200' and send it
out. *For the short lengths, we cut the tube on a bandsaw then deburr
each end, inner and outer, in a lathe.

Would it work if I slide 1' pieces onto a mandrel in the lathe and used
a pizza cutter type wheel in the cross slide to part the tube? *Kind of
like a pipe cutter.

I've made ferrules for handles this way using a tubing cutter and
copper and brass tubing, it works but the ends get rolled in and have
to be swaged out or reamed out. A backing mandrel with a groove just
gets the ends rolled into the groove, tried that once. If your lathe
is big enough to pass the tubing through the headstock, one way to use
it would be to rig up a rotary swager for the tailstock to open the
tubing back up after cutoff. You'd still have one end rolled in, but
that's better than two. Might be all that would be needed is a
hardened steel cone with a Morse taper on the other end. Or you could
make a roller swager ala boiler tube expander. Or accept the ends as-
is, and use a press with a tapered cone to bell them out. Might even
be able to use a small manual arbor press for that. Kind of like
belling the mouth of a cartridge on a reloading press. You could
probably dream up something automatic using a pneumatic cylinder with
the taper expander and a sloped feed ramp rolling them down on their
sides. If you're having troubles with your current supply of tubes,
you might want to make one anyway. Just some thoughts.

Stan

On 2012-05-11, wrote:
On Thu, 10 May 2012 21:10:35 -0400, "Stephen B."
wrote:

"Tom Gardner" wrote
On 5/10/2012 2:23 PM, Existential Angst wrote:



I would like to see ANYBODY cut 2" x .049" wall tube with a tube
cutter. It seems that politics overrides physics...loudly.

Hech, you can cut schedule 40 iron pipe with a "pipe cutter" which is
just a heavy duty tube cutter. I think Sched 80 is done the same way.

0.049" is way thinner than Sched 40 -- maybe down around "Sched
5" if that is an official designation. Anyway -- below a certain wall
thickness for a given diameter, tubing spends more time flexing than
actually being cut.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 5/11/2012 1:39 PM, Wild_Bill wrote:
Maybe what would benefit your assembly operation the most is a
new/better method of press-forming the short tubular sections
(grommet-like connector?).


You're right, the tube has up to 5 brushes and 2 plates separated by
elastomer spacers. the stack of parts is almost twice as long as the
tube. The tube already has a flaring operation on one end and is then
forced through the stack and pushes a spring-loaded mandrel that the
parts are stacked on out of the way When the mandrel bottoms out the
tube end hits a flare and "grommets" that end.

Any ideas on how to improve it?

Here's the finished product:
http://www.wisesales.com/shindaiwa-c...g#.T67vpetv9ng

On Sat, 12 May 2012 20:06:28 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Fri, 11 May 2012 09:40:52 -0400, Tom Gardner mars@tacks wrote:

On 5/11/2012 5:36 AM, Wild_Bill wrote:
snip
Halve it your way.


Good one!

1/2 of 1% gets cut in house, it's just a PITA. I've see the operation at
the the commercial cutter, they do it with a parting tool on a machine
that supports the tube from the inside and the outside, it's like a big
lathe with all automatic operations. The ID is chamfered with a reamer
type tool and the OD is chamfered with a grinding operation on another
machine. They WILL do the shorter lengths but with a 8-10 week lead
time. We also use miles of thicker tube, .062" wall that is no problem
with custom lengths cut in house but the .049" wall is delicate by
comparison and any imperfection will cause it to accordion or not swage
properly. When that happens it almost no worth recovering the parts.

I thought it was an interesting challenge and that maybe someone had
magic. I had no idea what it would turn into. I guess that RCM is
tuned to other things, too bad. But, most people DID offer good ideas
in the spirit of the old, old RCM.

So, my conclusion is to bite the bullet with the lead time from the
commercial cutter and keep shorter pieces on the shelf.

Tom..what you need to do is find an old Hardinge DV-59

Cross slide and turret.

Set up a cut off tool in the cross slide, and a mandrel in the
turret....or several mandrels in the turret
Bar feed in your stock. Put the mandrel at the correct length (distance
from the cutter. Infeed a length of tubing. Pull the turret forward
until the mandrel goes in the pipe, close the collet, hit the spindle
(and it really doesnt need to be shut off for any operation), lever in
the cut off slide, retract, retract the turret, pull off the cut piece,
slide it forwards again, open collet, infeed tube over mandrel, close
collet, cut off, repeat.

Dead simple and one can do a cut in about 2 seconds.

Run all the pieces you need. Then turn turret to handy hand made V
deburring tool in an offset on the turret, infeed, deburr..retract
turret, open collet and pull out work, reverse ends, close collet, hit
with deburring tool in turret, repeat as necessary.

Very much a no brainer and very very fast

One could even do this with a pneumatic bar feeder for extra speed and
minimal operator handling

Gunner


Gunner
This was pretty much the operation when I operated a manual cut off
lathe in a welded steel tube plant in 1971. IIRC the cut off tool was
mounted inverted to cut when the cross feed lever was pulled toward
the operator. Push the lever to open the collet and feed material to
the stop. The cut off tool was ground at a slight angle in order that
the partedoff piece had negligible burr, the burr being left on the
tube still held in the collet. This burr was manually removed with a
quick flick of a tool fashioned from a half round file. I don't recall
the production rate but I do recall that the feed rack was replenished
at least twice per shift by the overhead crane.

On 5/12/2012 10:53 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
Speed deburring with a collet in a lathe

http://www.swagelok.com/search/find_...4-77f76df1e2f2

Fast!

Gunner


THAT'S what I'm talking about! I have to explore the site further but
it looks like the MAGIC! Thanks!

On 5/12/2012 11:09 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

That will work fine. I didnt realize the work was 2" in diameter,,which
leaves out the DV-59..(max 1 1/16 through the spindle)

But if one has a turret lathe with a proper spindle bore..no brainer

Gunner


I have a WS #2 but I'm pretty sure it's too small too. But I get the
idea.

You should see one of these machines in action, WAY cool! The biggest
market is for prepping metal roofs. Tis' the season!

On 2012-05-13, Tom Gardner mars@tacks wrote:
On 5/12/2012 11:06 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

Tom..what you need to do is find an old Hardinge DV-59

Cross slide and turret.

Set up a cut off tool in the cross slide, and a mandrel in the
turret....or several mandrels in the turret

[ ... ]

If I can do it that way, I could bring the op in-house! I'll look for a
DV-59, there's still a huge surplus of idle machines here. (I wonder why?)

Gunner withdrew the suggestion of the DV-59 once he saw the
diameter of your workpiece. IIRC, the DV-59 was limited to something
like 1-1/8", not your 2". But a larger turret lathe (which you *may*
already have in house) would do this very nicely. Just a matter of
scale. Find a turret lathe (or even a lathe with a bed turret) which
will pass your 2" tubing through the spindle -- and ideally though
collets with a lever closer -- obviously not the 5C for your 2" diameter,
some other series would be needed.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---