In another place I hang out, we're discussing a tower that was
toppled by a tornado 25 years ago. Seeing as how this was a
327 ft tower, weighing ~135 tons, that's a lot of bent steel.

But the story is, it was not sellable as scrap because it was
galvanized. They ended up burying it on-site!

You guys know lots more about steel than I do, so why is it you
can't reuse galvanized steel?
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

On 2012-01-30, David Lesher wrote:
In another place I hang out, we're discussing a tower that was
toppled by a tornado 25 years ago. Seeing as how this was a
327 ft tower, weighing ~135 tons, that's a lot of bent steel.

But the story is, it was not sellable as scrap because it was
galvanized. They ended up burying it on-site!

You guys know lots more about steel than I do, so why is it you
can't reuse galvanized steel?

Sounds like bull**** to me.

Scrap yard that I frequent takes galvanized steel just as well.

They really could not care less.

i

David Lesher wrote:
In another place I hang out, we're discussing a tower that was
toppled by a tornado 25 years ago. Seeing as how this was a
327 ft tower, weighing ~135 tons, that's a lot of bent steel.

But the story is, it was not sellable as scrap because it was
galvanized. They ended up burying it on-site!

You guys know lots more about steel than I do, so why is it you
can't reuse galvanized steel?


25 years ago it was probably not worth enough to cut it up and transport
it.


--
Steve W.

On Jan 29, 10:08*pm, "Steve W." wrote:
David Lesher wrote:
In another place I hang out, we're discussing a tower that was
toppled by a tornado 25 years ago. Seeing as how this was a
327 ft tower, weighing ~135 tons, that's a lot of bent steel.

But the story is, it was not sellable as scrap because it was
galvanized. *They ended up burying it on-site!

You guys know lots more about steel than I do, so why is it you
can't reuse galvanized steel?

25 years ago it was probably not worth enough to cut it up and transport
it.

--
Steve W.

Yep...and likely well worth digging up now and reselling.

TMT

"David Lesher" wrote in message
...
In another place I hang out, we're discussing a tower that was
toppled by a tornado 25 years ago. Seeing as how this was a
327 ft tower, weighing ~135 tons, that's a lot of bent steel.

But the story is, it was not sellable as scrap because it was
galvanized. They ended up burying it on-site!

You guys know lots more about steel than I do, so why is it you
can't reuse galvanized steel?

It may have been related to the fact that welding/flame cutting galvanized
steel apparently releases very toxic gaseous compounds of zinc, so scrappers
may have been reluctant to cut it up -- altho one doesn't normally think of
scrappers as being a health-conscious environmental lot.... LOL
.. May have turned into a kind of scrap urban lore, in some locales. Just
guessing....
--
EA



--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

"Steve W." wrote in message
...
David Lesher wrote:
In another place I hang out, we're discussing a tower that was
toppled by a tornado 25 years ago. Seeing as how this was a 327 ft tower,
weighing ~135 tons, that's a lot of bent steel.

But the story is, it was not sellable as scrap because it was
galvanized. They ended up burying it on-site!

You guys know lots more about steel than I do, so why is it you
can't reuse galvanized steel?


25 years ago it was probably not worth enough to cut it up and transport
it.


Pretty sure 25 years ago recyclers were buying scrap steel at around $50 /
ton

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 01:14:22 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

"David Lesher" wrote in message
...
In another place I hang out, we're discussing a tower that was
toppled by a tornado 25 years ago. Seeing as how this was a
327 ft tower, weighing ~135 tons, that's a lot of bent steel.

But the story is, it was not sellable as scrap because it was
galvanized. They ended up burying it on-site!

You guys know lots more about steel than I do, so why is it you
can't reuse galvanized steel?

It may have been related to the fact that welding/flame cutting galvanized
steel apparently releases very toxic gaseous compounds of zinc, so scrappers
may have been reluctant to cut it up -- altho one doesn't normally think of
scrappers as being a health-conscious environmental lot.... LOL

Anyone who has ever experienced zinc-fume fever, even a mild case of
it (raises hand) doesn't need health-consciousness to know it's bad
news. It's like a short-lived case of flu. In severe cases, it can be
really nasty. I got a mild dose from welding or brazing (I forget
which) EMT, and I don't want to experience it again.

Today, there are throw-away masks that can protect you from it. 3M
makes one, or did. I bought a few around 10 years ago. Ordinary dust
masks and solvent-fume filters won't do it.

--
Ed Huntress (yes, I'm coming to Yonkers soon)


. May have turned into a kind of scrap urban lore, in some locales. Just
guessing....

On Jan 30, 12:38*am, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 01:14:22 -0500, "Existential Angst"





wrote:
"David Lesher" wrote in message
...
In another place I hang out, we're discussing a tower that was
toppled by a tornado 25 years ago. Seeing as how this was a
327 ft tower, weighing ~135 tons, that's a lot of bent steel.

But the story is, it was not sellable as scrap because it was
galvanized. *They ended up burying it on-site!

You guys know lots more about steel than I do, so why is it you
can't reuse galvanized steel?

It may have been related to the fact that welding/flame cutting galvanized
steel apparently releases very toxic gaseous compounds of zinc, so scrappers
may have been reluctant to cut it up -- altho one doesn't normally think of
scrappers as being a health-conscious environmental lot.... * LOL

Anyone who has ever experienced zinc-fume fever, even a mild case of
it (raises hand) doesn't need health-consciousness to know it's bad
news. It's like a short-lived case of flu. In severe cases, it can be
really nasty. I got a mild dose from welding or brazing (I forget
which) EMT, and I don't want to experience it again.

Today, there are throw-away masks that can protect you from it. 3M
makes one, or did. I bought a few around 10 years ago. Ordinary dust
masks and solvent-fume filters won't do it.

--
Ed Huntress (yes, I'm coming to Yonkers soon)



. *May have turned into a kind of scrap urban lore, in some locales. *Just
guessing....- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Agreed about the dangers of zinc fumes.

TMT

On 2012-01-30, Existential Angst wrote:
"David Lesher" wrote in message
...
In another place I hang out, we're discussing a tower that was
toppled by a tornado 25 years ago. Seeing as how this was a
327 ft tower, weighing ~135 tons, that's a lot of bent steel.

But the story is, it was not sellable as scrap because it was
galvanized. They ended up burying it on-site!

You guys know lots more about steel than I do, so why is it you
can't reuse galvanized steel?

It may have been related to the fact that welding/flame cutting galvanized
steel apparently releases very toxic gaseous compounds of zinc, so scrappers
may have been reluctant to cut it up -- altho one doesn't normally think of
scrappers as being a health-conscious environmental lot.... LOL
. May have turned into a kind of scrap urban lore, in some locales. Just
guessing....

Come on guys, let's not be joking here.

i

On 2012-01-30, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Steve W." wrote in message
...
David Lesher wrote:
In another place I hang out, we're discussing a tower that was
toppled by a tornado 25 years ago. Seeing as how this was a 327 ft tower,
weighing ~135 tons, that's a lot of bent steel.

But the story is, it was not sellable as scrap because it was
galvanized. They ended up burying it on-site!

You guys know lots more about steel than I do, so why is it you
can't reuse galvanized steel?


25 years ago it was probably not worth enough to cut it up and transport
it.


Pretty sure 25 years ago recyclers were buying scrap steel at around $50 /
ton



What what was $50 worth then? Same as $280/ton now...

Ignoramus18027 wrote:

(...)

What what was $50 worth then? Same as $280/ton now...

Sounds like a "shovel ready" project.

--Winston

On Jan 30, 7:53*am, Winston wrote:
Ignoramus18027 wrote:

(...)

What what was $50 worth then? Same as $280/ton now...

Sounds like a "shovel ready" project.

--Winston

LOL...good one Winston.

TMT

On Jan 30, 12:38*am, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 01:14:22 -0500, "Existential Angst"









wrote:
"David Lesher" wrote in message
...
In another place I hang out, we're discussing a tower that was
toppled by a tornado 25 years ago. Seeing as how this was a
327 ft tower, weighing ~135 tons, that's a lot of bent steel.

But the story is, it was not sellable as scrap because it was
galvanized. *They ended up burying it on-site!

You guys know lots more about steel than I do, so why is it you
can't reuse galvanized steel?

It may have been related to the fact that welding/flame cutting galvanized
steel apparently releases very toxic gaseous compounds of zinc, so scrappers
may have been reluctant to cut it up -- altho one doesn't normally think of
scrappers as being a health-conscious environmental lot.... * LOL

Anyone who has ever experienced zinc-fume fever, even a mild case of
it (raises hand) doesn't need health-consciousness to know it's bad
news. It's like a short-lived case of flu. In severe cases, it can be
really nasty. I got a mild dose from welding or brazing (I forget
which) EMT, and I don't want to experience it again.

Today, there are throw-away masks that can protect you from it. 3M
makes one, or did. I bought a few around 10 years ago. Ordinary dust
masks and solvent-fume filters won't do it.

--
Ed Huntress (yes, I'm coming to Yonkers soon)







. *May have turned into a kind of scrap urban lore, in some locales. *Just
guessing....

Ed the OSHA web site calls it metal fume fever.
http://www.osha.gov/doc/outreachtrai.../weldhlth.html
And their description follows;
Zinc is used in large quantities in the manufacture of brass,
galvanized metals, and various other alloys. Inhalation of zinc oxide
fumes can occur when welding or cutting on zinc-coated metals.
Exposure to these fumes is known to cause metal fume fever. Symptoms
of metal fume fever are very similar to those of common influenza.
They include fever (rarely exceeding 102o F), chills, nausea, dryness
of the throat, cough, fatigue, and general weakness and aching of the
head and body. The victim may sweat profusely for a few hours, after
which the body temperature begins to return to normal. The symptoms of
metal fume fever have rarely, if ever, lasted beyond 24 hours. The
subject can then appear to be more susceptible to the onset of this
condition on Mondays or on weekdays following a holiday than they are
on other days.

I find it interesting they made comment to it's effects relative to
Mondays or holidays. Someone in OSHA has a sense of humor.
ignator

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 23:00:55 -0800 (PST), ignator
wrote:

On Jan 30, 12:38*am, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 01:14:22 -0500, "Existential Angst"









wrote:
"David Lesher" wrote in message
...
In another place I hang out, we're discussing a tower that was
toppled by a tornado 25 years ago. Seeing as how this was a
327 ft tower, weighing ~135 tons, that's a lot of bent steel.

But the story is, it was not sellable as scrap because it was
galvanized. *They ended up burying it on-site!

You guys know lots more about steel than I do, so why is it you
can't reuse galvanized steel?

It may have been related to the fact that welding/flame cutting galvanized
steel apparently releases very toxic gaseous compounds of zinc, so scrappers
may have been reluctant to cut it up -- altho one doesn't normally think of
scrappers as being a health-conscious environmental lot.... * LOL

Anyone who has ever experienced zinc-fume fever, even a mild case of
it (raises hand) doesn't need health-consciousness to know it's bad
news. It's like a short-lived case of flu. In severe cases, it can be
really nasty. I got a mild dose from welding or brazing (I forget
which) EMT, and I don't want to experience it again.

Today, there are throw-away masks that can protect you from it. 3M
makes one, or did. I bought a few around 10 years ago. Ordinary dust
masks and solvent-fume filters won't do it.

--
Ed Huntress (yes, I'm coming to Yonkers soon)







. *May have turned into a kind of scrap urban lore, in some locales. *Just
guessing....

Ed the OSHA web site calls it metal fume fever.
http://www.osha.gov/doc/outreachtrai.../weldhlth.html
And their description follows;
Zinc is used in large quantities in the manufacture of brass,
galvanized metals, and various other alloys. Inhalation of zinc oxide
fumes can occur when welding or cutting on zinc-coated metals.
Exposure to these fumes is known to cause metal fume fever. Symptoms
of metal fume fever are very similar to those of common influenza.
They include fever (rarely exceeding 102o F), chills, nausea, dryness
of the throat, cough, fatigue, and general weakness and aching of the
head and body. The victim may sweat profusely for a few hours, after
which the body temperature begins to return to normal. The symptoms of
metal fume fever have rarely, if ever, lasted beyond 24 hours. The
subject can then appear to be more susceptible to the onset of this
condition on Mondays or on weekdays following a holiday than they are
on other days.

I find it interesting they made comment to it's effects relative to
Mondays or holidays. Someone in OSHA has a sense of humor.
ignator

Ha-ha! Yes, that's funny.

The description sounds familiar. Fortunately for me, I didn't get a
bad dose of it. I didn't have a fever, but it felt like the flu
otherwise.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 23:00:55 -0800 (PST), ignator
wrote:

(...)

I find it interesting they made comment to it's effects relative to
Mondays or holidays. Someone in OSHA has a sense of humor.
ignator

Ha-ha! Yes, that's funny.

The description sounds familiar. Fortunately for me, I didn't get a
bad dose of it. I didn't have a fever, but it felt like the flu
otherwise.

I remove the zinc coating from galvanized pipe
by allowing the ends to soak in straight muriatic
(pool) acid for a few minutes, then neutralize with
a water and baking soda solution followed by a water
rinse.

The vapor created by the soak is hot, plentiful
and Very Nasty smelling, so I only do this outside
whilst standing upwind.

The resulting steel welds really well. I've avoided
zinc fever so far.

The fumes created by gas cutting powder - coated steel
left my nose offline for most of a year, though.

(Don't do that.)

--Winston

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:07:14 -0800, Winston
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 23:00:55 -0800 (PST), ignator
wrote:

(...)

I find it interesting they made comment to it's effects relative to
Mondays or holidays. Someone in OSHA has a sense of humor.
ignator

Ha-ha! Yes, that's funny.

The description sounds familiar. Fortunately for me, I didn't get a
bad dose of it. I didn't have a fever, but it felt like the flu
otherwise.

I remove the zinc coating from galvanized pipe
by allowing the ends to soak in straight muriatic
(pool) acid for a few minutes, then neutralize with
a water and baking soda solution followed by a water
rinse.

Around 8 or so years ago we discussed the subject here, after I'd
complained about the fume fever, and someone -- maybe you --
recommended that treatment.

So I cut off some one-foot test pieces of EMT and stood them up in a
plastic peanut butter jar, and poured muriatic acid around them to a
depth of xix inches or so. The galvanizing stripped off in minutes.

Someone in the discussion had recommended against the baking soda
because he said it could form a salt that would stay in the pores of
the steel. So, just for a test, I simply rinsed the EMT off, scrubbing
good with a fiber brush, dried them, and stuck them on a shelf in my
dampish basement to see what happened. Until I had a really serious
flood last fall, there wasn't a speck of rust on them. They were still
shiny steel. Now one side of the pieces have a slight blush of rust.

Unfortunately, I haven't welded EMT since that day. d8-(. I had just
been using it for practice, anyway.


The vapor created by the soak is hot, plentiful
and Very Nasty smelling, so I only do this outside
whilst standing upwind.

Yeah, I did it outside. I will not open a container of hydrochloric
acid in the same room with my machine tools -- or anything else I
don't want to rust.


The resulting steel welds really well. I've avoided
zinc fever so far.

The fumes created by gas cutting powder - coated steel
left my nose offline for most of a year, though.

(Don't do that.)

I'll try to remember that.

--
Ed Huntress

--Winston

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:07:14 -0800,
wrote:

(...)

Around 8 or so years ago we discussed the subject here, after I'd
complained about the fume fever, and someone -- maybe you --
recommended that treatment.

So I cut off some one-foot test pieces of EMT and stood them up in a
plastic peanut butter jar, and poured muriatic acid around them to a
depth of xix inches or so. The galvanizing stripped off in minutes.

Someone in the discussion had recommended against the baking soda
because he said it could form a salt that would stay in the pores of
the steel. So, just for a test, I simply rinsed the EMT off, scrubbing
good with a fiber brush, dried them, and stuck them on a shelf in my
dampish basement to see what happened. Until I had a really serious
flood last fall, there wasn't a speck of rust on them. They were still
shiny steel. Now one side of the pieces have a slight blush of rust.

I'd forgotten that. I'll drop the 'baking soda solution
step' and use an aggressive scrub with clear water next time.

Unfortunately, I haven't welded EMT since that day. d8-(. I had just
been using it for practice, anyway.


The vapor created by the soak is hot, plentiful
and Very Nasty smelling, so I only do this outside
whilst standing upwind.

Yeah, I did it outside. I will not open a container of hydrochloric
acid in the same room with my machine tools -- or anything else I
don't want to rust.

Yes. That is hugely important.

I stored my jug of HCl solution in a garden shed away from
machine tools.

The resulting steel welds really well. I've avoided
zinc fever so far.

The fumes created by gas cutting powder - coated steel
left my nose offline for most of a year, though.

(Don't do that.)

I'll try to remember that.


--Winston

"Winston" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:07:14 -0800,
wrote:

So I cut off some one-foot test pieces of EMT and stood them up in a
plastic peanut butter jar, and poured muriatic acid around them to a
depth of xix inches or so. The galvanizing stripped off in minutes.

--Winston

The caustic soda (NaOH) in drain cleaner also removes zinc, without
affecting the steel. The CO2 in the air converts any lye you didn't remove
into washing (Na2CO3) or baking (NaHCO3) soda. All are mildly protective of
the steel, but not enough for outdoor use. You can see the difference
between the silvery zinc and greyish steel to tell when it's done.

Drain cleaner doesn't release any fumes to damage your lungs or machinery.
Spilled HCl can be more dangerous than other strong acids because it soaks
in rather than reacting immediately with the outer layer of dead skin.

jsw

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 11:26:13 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"Winston" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:07:14 -0800,
wrote:

So I cut off some one-foot test pieces of EMT and stood them up in a
plastic peanut butter jar, and poured muriatic acid around them to a
depth of xix inches or so. The galvanizing stripped off in minutes.

--Winston

The caustic soda (NaOH) in drain cleaner also removes zinc, without
affecting the steel. The CO2 in the air converts any lye you didn't remove
into washing (Na2CO3) or baking (NaHCO3) soda. All are mildly protective of
the steel, but not enough for outdoor use. You can see the difference
between the silvery zinc and greyish steel to tell when it's done.

Drain cleaner doesn't release any fumes to damage your lungs or machinery.
Spilled HCl can be more dangerous than other strong acids because it soaks
in rather than reacting immediately with the outer layer of dead skin.

jsw


Yeah, I've been meaning to try that, but I never got around to it.
Maybe this spring.

--
Ed Huntress

Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Winston" wrote in message
...

Ed Huntress wrote:

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:07:14 -0800,
wrote:

So I cut off some one-foot test pieces of EMT and stood them up in a
plastic peanut butter jar, and poured muriatic acid around them to a
depth of xix inches or so. The galvanizing stripped off in minutes.


--Winston


The caustic soda (NaOH) in drain cleaner also removes zinc, without
affecting the steel. The CO2 in the air converts any lye you didn't remove
into washing (Na2CO3) or baking (NaHCO3) soda. All are mildly protective of
the steel, but not enough for outdoor use. You can see the difference
between the silvery zinc and greyish steel to tell when it's done.

Drain cleaner doesn't release any fumes to damage your lungs or machinery.
Spilled HCl can be more dangerous than other strong acids because it soaks
in rather than reacting immediately with the outer layer of dead skin.

jsw



A quick heads up would be to check the ingredients before buying the
drain cleaner as my neighbour bought some, I'm in the UK, and found that
the main ingredient was sulphuric acid. My neighbour took the drain
cleaner back where he bought it for a refund, as it was expensive, and
he already had quite a quantity of sulphuric acid that he had bought to
make pickling solution for his loco construction. Not all drain cleaners
in the UK are sulphuric acid based though, many are caustic soda which
is readily available for the purpose.

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 18:13:31 +0000, David Billington
wrote:

Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Winston" wrote in message
...

Ed Huntress wrote:

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:07:14 -0800,
wrote:

So I cut off some one-foot test pieces of EMT and stood them up in a
plastic peanut butter jar, and poured muriatic acid around them to a
depth of xix inches or so. The galvanizing stripped off in minutes.


--Winston


The caustic soda (NaOH) in drain cleaner also removes zinc, without
affecting the steel. The CO2 in the air converts any lye you didn't remove
into washing (Na2CO3) or baking (NaHCO3) soda. All are mildly protective of
the steel, but not enough for outdoor use. You can see the difference
between the silvery zinc and greyish steel to tell when it's done.

Drain cleaner doesn't release any fumes to damage your lungs or machinery.
Spilled HCl can be more dangerous than other strong acids because it soaks
in rather than reacting immediately with the outer layer of dead skin.

jsw



A quick heads up would be to check the ingredients before buying the
drain cleaner as my neighbour bought some, I'm in the UK, and found that
the main ingredient was sulphuric acid. My neighbour took the drain
cleaner back where he bought it for a refund, as it was expensive, and
he already had quite a quantity of sulphuric acid that he had bought to
make pickling solution for his loco construction. Not all drain cleaners
in the UK are sulphuric acid based though, many are caustic soda which
is readily available for the purpose.

In the US, there appears to be only one brand of over-the-counter
drain cleaner that is straight, powder NaOH (lye). It's Roebic Crystal
Drain Opener, and the main (or sole?) retail outlet is Lowe's.

However, there are soap-making-supply companies that sell lye over the
Internet, and it's much cheaper. The trouble is that small quantities
tend to eat up any savings with shipping costs.

I buy from Essential Depot:

http://www.essentialdepot.com/

They've given me very good service, although I haven't bought any
larger quantities of lye for about a year.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:

(...)

In the US, there appears to be only one brand of over-the-counter
drain cleaner that is straight, powder NaOH (lye). It's Roebic Crystal
Drain Opener, and the main (or sole?) retail outlet is Lowe's.

However, there are soap-making-supply companies that sell lye over the
Internet, and it's much cheaper. The trouble is that small quantities
tend to eat up any savings with shipping costs.

I buy from Essential Depot:

http://www.essentialdepot.com/

They've given me very good service, although I haven't bought any
larger quantities of lye for about a year.

http://www.essentialdepot.com/servle...l-Grade/Detail

32 smackers for 10 lbs NaOH in 5 - 2 lb bottles. Free Shipping!

Is that a good deal Ed?
My local Lowe's does not admit to selling any kind of lye
on their website but I have not called them yet.

http://www.countryfarm-lifestyles.com/make-lye.html

Hmmm.


--Winston

Ed Huntress wrote:
...
In the US, there appears to be only one brand of over-the-counter
drain cleaner that is straight, powder NaOH (lye). It's Roebic Crystal
Drain Opener, and the main (or sole?) retail outlet is Lowe's.
...

I don't know about Roebic, but Drano has ingredients in addition to lye.
Supposedly they help the drain-clearing process, but are not so good
when used for other purposes. E.g., paint stripping. Straight lye is
good, Drano not.

Bob

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 13:04:54 -0800, Winston
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:

(...)

In the US, there appears to be only one brand of over-the-counter
drain cleaner that is straight, powder NaOH (lye). It's Roebic Crystal
Drain Opener, and the main (or sole?) retail outlet is Lowe's.

However, there are soap-making-supply companies that sell lye over the
Internet, and it's much cheaper. The trouble is that small quantities
tend to eat up any savings with shipping costs.

I buy from Essential Depot:

http://www.essentialdepot.com/

They've given me very good service, although I haven't bought any
larger quantities of lye for about a year.

http://www.essentialdepot.com/servle...l-Grade/Detail

32 smackers for 10 lbs NaOH in 5 - 2 lb bottles. Free Shipping!

Is that a good deal Ed?

Yeah, that's good. $3/pound delivered is what I expect to pay.
Sometimes they offer big discounts to their e-mail list, but you might
wait for months.

Note that they're now selling 2-pound bottles for $1.99. I didn't
check shipping to your area, but you'll probably find that the
10-pound/free-shipping deal is better.

My local Lowe's does not admit to selling any kind of lye
on their website but I have not called them yet.

Go to Lowe's site and search for "Crystal drain opener." You'll see
two brands. One is Roebic, which is the one you want. Two pounds for
$11.69 in my neighborhood.

I used lots of lye to clean the 80-year-old cast-iron drains in my
house, but I've been slowly replacing them with plastic, so I don't
buy quantities these days. Mostly I use it for producing a matte
finish on homemade aluminum radio chassis (another thing I haven't
done for a few years), and as an ingredient in Ted Edward's E-clean
electrolytic cleaner/de-ruster:

http://metalworking.com/dropbox/_199...es/E-CLEAN.TXT

I love that stuff.

--
Ed Huntress



http://www.countryfarm-lifestyles.com/make-lye.html

Hmmm.


--Winston

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 16:26:08 -0500, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
...
In the US, there appears to be only one brand of over-the-counter
drain cleaner that is straight, powder NaOH (lye). It's Roebic Crystal
Drain Opener, and the main (or sole?) retail outlet is Lowe's.
...

I don't know about Roebic, but Drano has ingredients in addition to lye.
Supposedly they help the drain-clearing process, but are not so good
when used for other purposes. E.g., paint stripping. Straight lye is
good, Drano not.

Bob

Right. Roebic is 100% sodium hydroxide. Drano is not.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 13:04:54 -0800,
wrote:

(...)

http://www.essentialdepot.com/servle...l-Grade/Detail

32 smackers for 10 lbs NaOH in 5 - 2 lb bottles. Free Shipping!

Is that a good deal Ed?

Yeah, that's good. $3/pound delivered is what I expect to pay.
Sometimes they offer big discounts to their e-mail list, but you might
wait for months.

Note that they're now selling 2-pound bottles for $1.99. I didn't
check shipping to your area, but you'll probably find that the
10-pound/free-shipping deal is better.

Yup. With shipping to me, the two pounder goes for ~$9.00 a lb!
Still, a much better deal than Lowe's.

My local Lowe's does not admit to selling any kind of lye
on their website but I have not called them yet.

Go to Lowe's site and search for "Crystal drain opener." You'll see
two brands. One is Roebic, which is the one you want. Two pounds for
$11.69 in my neighborhood.

Yes, I see it now. It's $12.24 for the two pounder here. Thanks!

I used lots of lye to clean the 80-year-old cast-iron drains in my
house, but I've been slowly replacing them with plastic, so I don't
buy quantities these days. Mostly I use it for producing a matte
finish on homemade aluminum radio chassis (another thing I haven't
done for a few years), and as an ingredient in Ted Edward's E-clean
electrolytic cleaner/de-ruster:

http://metalworking.com/dropbox/_199...es/E-CLEAN.TXT

I love that stuff.

It works a treat, even if you use plain washing soda.

--Winston

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 13:46:03 -0800, Winston
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 13:04:54 -0800,
wrote:

(...)

http://www.essentialdepot.com/servle...l-Grade/Detail

32 smackers for 10 lbs NaOH in 5 - 2 lb bottles. Free Shipping!

Is that a good deal Ed?

Yeah, that's good. $3/pound delivered is what I expect to pay.
Sometimes they offer big discounts to their e-mail list, but you might
wait for months.

Note that they're now selling 2-pound bottles for $1.99. I didn't
check shipping to your area, but you'll probably find that the
10-pound/free-shipping deal is better.

Yup. With shipping to me, the two pounder goes for ~$9.00 a lb!
Still, a much better deal than Lowe's.

My local Lowe's does not admit to selling any kind of lye
on their website but I have not called them yet.

Go to Lowe's site and search for "Crystal drain opener." You'll see
two brands. One is Roebic, which is the one you want. Two pounds for
$11.69 in my neighborhood.

Yes, I see it now. It's $12.24 for the two pounder here. Thanks!

I used lots of lye to clean the 80-year-old cast-iron drains in my
house, but I've been slowly replacing them with plastic, so I don't
buy quantities these days. Mostly I use it for producing a matte
finish on homemade aluminum radio chassis (another thing I haven't
done for a few years), and as an ingredient in Ted Edward's E-clean
electrolytic cleaner/de-ruster:

http://metalworking.com/dropbox/_199...es/E-CLEAN.TXT

I love that stuff.

It works a treat, even if you use plain washing soda.

--Winston

Have you tried plain washing soda with the carbon wand? Or are you
referring to the tank-type treatment?

BTW, my "wand" is a little exotic. It's a slice of Poco 3 EDM
electrode that I cut off with my hand miter saw. g A carbon
electrode for use in an arc torch is a lot cheaper, although you may
have some trouble finding one that doesn't have the copper plating. I
did, which is why I sliced into my Stirling-engine piston supply.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 13:46:03 -0800,
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:

(...)

http://metalworking.com/dropbox/_199...es/E-CLEAN.TXT

I love that stuff.

It works a treat, even if you use plain washing soda.

--Winston

Have you tried plain washing soda with the carbon wand? Or are you
referring to the tank-type treatment?

I see what you mean. I used scrap steel as my anode
with a plain washing soda electrolyte. Ted warns against
a metal anode but I don't understand why that is inadvisable.

I haven't run into any problem other than to protect the
cleaned surface Very Quickly as it does tend to oxidize
rapidly once clean.

BTW, my "wand" is a little exotic. It's a slice of Poco 3 EDM
electrode that I cut off with my hand miter saw.g

That is almost Rocket Surgery!

A carbon electrode for use in an arc torch is a lot cheaper,
although you may have some trouble finding one that doesn't
have the copper plating. I did, which is why I sliced into my
Stirling-engine piston supply.

I have a small box of 5/16 dia. carbon arc gouging electrodes.
The copper plating would probably dissolve in an acid bath.
They would probably work a treat in this application.


--Winston

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 02:08:22 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 23:00:55 -0800 (PST), ignator
wrote:

On Jan 30, 12:38*am, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 01:14:22 -0500, "Existential Angst"
[...]

Ed the OSHA web site calls it metal fume fever.
http://www.osha.gov/doc/outreachtrai.../weldhlth.html
And their description follows;
Zinc is used in large quantities in the manufacture of brass,
galvanized metals, and various other alloys. Inhalation of zinc oxide
fumes can occur when welding or cutting on zinc-coated metals.
Exposure to these fumes is known to cause metal fume fever. Symptoms
of metal fume fever are very similar to those of common influenza.
They include fever (rarely exceeding 102o F), chills, nausea, dryness
of the throat, cough, fatigue, and general weakness and aching of the
head and body. The victim may sweat profusely for a few hours, after
which the body temperature begins to return to normal. The symptoms of
metal fume fever have rarely, if ever, lasted beyond 24 hours. The
subject can then appear to be more susceptible to the onset of this
condition on Mondays or on weekdays following a holiday than they are
on other days.

I find it interesting they made comment to it's effects relative to
Mondays or holidays. Someone in OSHA has a sense of humor.
ignator

Ha-ha! Yes, that's funny.

The description sounds familiar. Fortunately for me, I didn't get a
bad dose of it. I didn't have a fever, but it felt like the flu
otherwise.

Same reason as workers in explosive factories get headaches on Mondays
or after holidays: One develops tolerance to nitroglycerine which is
quickly lost. Same with metal fumes.

Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

Ed Huntress wrote:
Have you tried plain washing soda with the carbon wand? ...

I'm generally skeptical when I see formulas like Ted's. Ed's Red is
another one. My suspicion is that the formula (ingredients used and
proportions) is sufficient, but not necessary. I.e., it works, but it
might work in much different proportions as well. I wonder how much
experimentation went into it. Or, was just a bunch of stuff thrown
together, TLAR fashion. (TLAR - That Looks About Right.)

I'm especially skeptical of Ted's because I have done _some_
electrolytic derusting using just TSP. Very little & no comparative
tests, but it worked well enough with just TSP that I probably wouldn't
bother trying anything else. I reported it on RCM; here is thread:
http://tinyurl.com/7y3wqgn

Bob

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:48:46 -0800, Winston
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 13:46:03 -0800,
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:

(...)

http://metalworking.com/dropbox/_199...es/E-CLEAN.TXT

I love that stuff.

It works a treat, even if you use plain washing soda.

--Winston

Have you tried plain washing soda with the carbon wand? Or are you
referring to the tank-type treatment?

I see what you mean. I used scrap steel as my anode
with a plain washing soda electrolyte. Ted warns against
a metal anode but I don't understand why that is inadvisable.

I suspect because of the consequences of making contact with the work.
You'll probably blow a fuse or worse. I've worn through the pads a
couple of times and got some amazing sparks, but, so far, the fuse in
my little 4-amp battery charger hasn't blown.


I haven't run into any problem other than to protect the
cleaned surface Very Quickly as it does tend to oxidize
rapidly once clean.

BTW, my "wand" is a little exotic. It's a slice of Poco 3 EDM
electrode that I cut off with my hand miter saw.g

That is almost Rocket Surgery!

A carbon electrode for use in an arc torch is a lot cheaper,
although you may have some trouble finding one that doesn't
have the copper plating. I did, which is why I sliced into my
Stirling-engine piston supply.

I have a small box of 5/16 dia. carbon arc gouging electrodes.
The copper plating would probably dissolve in an acid bath.
They would probably work a treat in this application.

I haven't tried this, but you might even be able to sand the copper
off without much trouble.

--
Ed Huntress




--Winston

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 20:10:17 -0500, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
Have you tried plain washing soda with the carbon wand? ...

I'm generally skeptical when I see formulas like Ted's.

Yeah, me too. But I have the ingredients, and a triple-beam balance,
so I just used his formula as-is.

Ed's Red is
another one. My suspicion is that the formula (ingredients used and
proportions) is sufficient, but not necessary. I.e., it works, but it
might work in much different proportions as well. I wonder how much
experimentation went into it. Or, was just a bunch of stuff thrown
together, TLAR fashion. (TLAR - That Looks About Right.)

I'm especially skeptical of Ted's because I have done _some_
electrolytic derusting using just TSP. Very little & no comparative
tests, but it worked well enough with just TSP that I probably wouldn't
bother trying anything else. I reported it on RCM; here is thread:
http://tinyurl.com/7y3wqgn

Bob

Next time I do some de-rusting I'll try simpler formulas -- if I
remember. That's becoming increasingly problematic. d8-)

I also intend to try some dilute sulphuric acid. I don't expect to be
able to electropolish, but I'd like to see if I can eliminate that
black oxide that the other formulas often leave behind.

--
Ed Huntress

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 17:02:21 -0800, wrote:

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 02:08:22 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 23:00:55 -0800 (PST), ignator
wrote:

On Jan 30, 12:38*am, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 01:14:22 -0500, "Existential Angst"
[...]

Ed the OSHA web site calls it metal fume fever.
http://www.osha.gov/doc/outreachtrai.../weldhlth.html
And their description follows;
Zinc is used in large quantities in the manufacture of brass,
galvanized metals, and various other alloys. Inhalation of zinc oxide
fumes can occur when welding or cutting on zinc-coated metals.
Exposure to these fumes is known to cause metal fume fever. Symptoms
of metal fume fever are very similar to those of common influenza.
They include fever (rarely exceeding 102o F), chills, nausea, dryness
of the throat, cough, fatigue, and general weakness and aching of the
head and body. The victim may sweat profusely for a few hours, after
which the body temperature begins to return to normal. The symptoms of
metal fume fever have rarely, if ever, lasted beyond 24 hours. The
subject can then appear to be more susceptible to the onset of this
condition on Mondays or on weekdays following a holiday than they are
on other days.

I find it interesting they made comment to it's effects relative to
Mondays or holidays. Someone in OSHA has a sense of humor.
ignator

Ha-ha! Yes, that's funny.

The description sounds familiar. Fortunately for me, I didn't get a
bad dose of it. I didn't have a fever, but it felt like the flu
otherwise.

Same reason as workers in explosive factories get headaches on Mondays
or after holidays: One develops tolerance to nitroglycerine which is
quickly lost. Same with metal fumes.

Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

Aha! That makes sense. I misread that statement the first time
through.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:48:46 -0800, Winston
wrote:
... Ted warns against
a metal anode but I don't understand why that is inadvisable.

I suspect because of the consequences of making contact with the work.
You'll probably blow a fuse or worse. I've worn through the pads a
couple of times and got some amazing sparks, but, so far, the fuse in
my little 4-amp battery charger hasn't blown.
...

I have tried copper, brass, aluminum, and steel. None worked, although
I have no idea why not. My best guess is that there is an electrolytic
action with these anodes that replaces or hides the one with the rust.

Bob

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 13:46:03 -0800, Winston
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 13:04:54 -0800,
wrote:

(...)

http://www.essentialdepot.com/servle...l-Grade/Detail

32 smackers for 10 lbs NaOH in 5 - 2 lb bottles. Free Shipping!

Is that a good deal Ed?

Yeah, that's good. $3/pound delivered is what I expect to pay.
Sometimes they offer big discounts to their e-mail list, but you might
wait for months.

Note that they're now selling 2-pound bottles for $1.99. I didn't
check shipping to your area, but you'll probably find that the
10-pound/free-shipping deal is better.

Yup. With shipping to me, the two pounder goes for ~$9.00 a lb!
Still, a much better deal than Lowe's.

Try to find local soapmakers. They might sell some cheaper. Street
faires and craft store employees are the best bet.


I used lots of lye to clean the 80-year-old cast-iron drains in my
house, but I've been slowly replacing them with plastic, so I don't
buy quantities these days. Mostly I use it for producing a matte
finish on homemade aluminum radio chassis (another thing I haven't
done for a few years), and as an ingredient in Ted Edward's E-clean
electrolytic cleaner/de-ruster:

http://metalworking.com/dropbox/_199...es/E-CLEAN.TXT

I love that stuff.

It works a treat, even if you use plain washing soda.

Looks like a powerful recipe. I'll have to try that.

--
Never trouble another for what you can do for yourself.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"Winston" wrote in message
...
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 20:37:55 -0800,
wrote:
...
The difference in the appearance of the
workpiece would have started a religion
200 years ago.
--Winston-- Look Ma! No Rust!

Here's evidence that the first operational amplifiers
used one ox each:
http://karenswhimsy.com/public-domai...uneiform-2.jpg

--Winston

And "Man" is a dead guy full of arrows.

200 years is too recent, the scientific revolution had begun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_Lavoisier
As had the French one-----

At 400 though you'd be burned as a witch.

jsw

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 22:23:10 -0800, Winston
wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 20:37:55 -0800,
wrote:

(...)

I dunno. I think that $3.20 a lb from Essential Depot will
be a hard deal to beat.

If you need that much, probably. If not, the lack of shipping from a
local vendor might be a much better deal.

Could Be! I will keep my eyes open for a local deal, too.

I look for value, so I always look near and far before buying things.
I try to support local vendors, but not when they ask twice what the
thing's worth. When I find that, I tell them and ask what price they
pay for the item. Many times, their wholesale price is higher than an
eBay, Amazon, or other online vendor's retail price and they have a
chance to source their goods more cheaply, allowing them to attract
more local purchasers. Or they tell me to "GFY!" I win either way.


(...)

The difference in the appearance of the
workpiece would have started a religion
200 years ago.


--Winston-- Look Ma! No Rust!

The resolution of video shot back then was considerably more grainy
than that of today.

If you can find a cuneiform player, that is.

Verily.


Here's evidence that the first operational amplifiers
used one ox each:
http://karenswhimsy.com/public-domai...uneiform-2.jpg

Bwahahahaha! Good one. I wonder if that is an actual tidbit of info
which played into the symbolism of our electronics heritage. Techies
do have good, and finely honed, senses of ironic humor. I love it!

--
Never trouble another for what you can do for yourself.
-- Thomas Jefferson

On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 07:49:05 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"Winston" wrote in message
...
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 20:37:55 -0800,
wrote:
...
The difference in the appearance of the
workpiece would have started a religion
200 years ago.
--Winston-- Look Ma! No Rust!

Here's evidence that the first operational amplifiers
used one ox each:
http://karenswhimsy.com/public-domai...uneiform-2.jpg

--Winston

And "Man" is a dead guy full of arrows.

I had no idea Feminism had reared its ugly head that early on.


200 years is too recent, the scientific revolution had begun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_Lavoisier
As had the French one-----

People really lost their heads celebrating that one.


At 400 though you'd be burned as a witch.

Thus, true healers died and the beginnings of the AMA took root...

--
Never trouble another for what you can do for yourself.
-- Thomas Jefferson

On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 07:49:05 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"Winston" wrote in message
...
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 20:37:55 -0800,
wrote:
...
The difference in the appearance of the
workpiece would have started a religion
200 years ago.
--Winston-- Look Ma! No Rust!

Here's evidence that the first operational amplifiers
used one ox each:
http://karenswhimsy.com/public-domai...uneiform-2.jpg

OMG! They had blown mountains onto their sides back in 3500BC and
were burying radioactive waste under mountains in 700BC! Our history
books are soooo revisionist.

--
Never trouble another for what you can do for yourself.
-- Thomas Jefferson

Jim Wilkins wrote:
wrote in message
...
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 20:37:55 -0800,
wrote:
...
The difference in the appearance of the
workpiece would have started a religion
200 years ago.
--Winston-- Look Ma! No Rust!

(...)

200 years is too recent, the scientific revolution had begun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_Lavoisier
As had the French one-----

It takes surprisingly little for us to start
a new belief system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ious_movements

At 400 though you'd be burned as a witch.

I don't think it would have taken that much of a demonstration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_w...gal_procedures

--Winston