So today I left the 15th annual Cabin Fever Expo in York, PA lightheaded
because of the engine exhaust fumes but not empty-handed. I've used the
occasion as an excuse to buy myself a mechanical toy in the past but this
time I felt emboldened (or it might just be all the fumes again) and
bought a machined Steam Engine Kit #5 by P.M. Research that requires
assembly.

Now my challenge is to deburr, de-flash and paint the cast parts before I
can begin the assembly. I know that for most of you hardcore machinists in
the group would not consider it a challenge but I haven't done anything
like that before so that'll keep me busy for awhile.

The question naturally arose: "what paint to use?" The young fellow
selling the kit to me was honest and said he's just running the booth
until his dad comes back from lunch. And I badly needed some fresh air and
could not hang around for much longer. The assembly manual says: "Use
proper metal primer" and mentions no actual paint.

So, what would this respectable group recommend for the primer and the
paint? And where do you get it, is this something a mere mortal gets at
Michaels or A.C. Moore - type craft store or is this a special order
paint?

There won't be any actual steam there (compressed air) so there isn't any
high-temperature requirement but I really want to use the right stuff
because I sincerely hope this won't be my last project of this kind. I may
even get around to buying a lathe and a mill at some point in the future
and do a project that requires machining (long shot at this point tho).
That's what visiting a show like this does to people

Also, I've heard/read/seen on TV that (some) metal paint requires baking.
As much fun as it would be to mess with it in a home environment, I don't
think I'm properly equipped for that, so a self-drying paint would be my
preference.

Thanks for any information, tips or comments!

--
DA in PA

On 01/15/2011 04:14 PM, DA wrote:
So today I left the 15th annual Cabin Fever Expo in York, PA lightheaded
because of the engine exhaust fumes but not empty-handed. I've used the
occasion as an excuse to buy myself a mechanical toy in the past but this
time I felt emboldened (or it might just be all the fumes again) and
bought a machined Steam Engine Kit #5 by P.M. Research that requires
assembly.

Now my challenge is to deburr, de-flash and paint the cast parts before I
can begin the assembly. I know that for most of you hardcore machinists in
the group would not consider it a challenge but I haven't done anything
like that before so that'll keep me busy for awhile.

The question naturally arose: "what paint to use?" The young fellow
selling the kit to me was honest and said he's just running the booth
until his dad comes back from lunch. And I badly needed some fresh air and
could not hang around for much longer. The assembly manual says: "Use
proper metal primer" and mentions no actual paint.

So, what would this respectable group recommend for the primer and the
paint? And where do you get it, is this something a mere mortal gets at
Michaels or A.C. Moore - type craft store or is this a special order
paint?

There won't be any actual steam there (compressed air) so there isn't any
high-temperature requirement but I really want to use the right stuff
because I sincerely hope this won't be my last project of this kind. I may
even get around to buying a lathe and a mill at some point in the future
and do a project that requires machining (long shot at this point tho).
That's what visiting a show like this does to people

Also, I've heard/read/seen on TV that (some) metal paint requires baking.
As much fun as it would be to mess with it in a home environment, I don't
think I'm properly equipped for that, so a self-drying paint would be my
preference.

Thanks for any information, tips or comments!

Rustoleum spray-bomb should work fine. Use their metal primer first,
then the color(s) of your choice. You _can_ do a good job with
spray-can paint, but not the first time you try.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Tim Wescott wrote:

Rustoleum spray-bomb should work fine. Use their metal primer first,
then the color(s) of your choice. You _can_ do a good job with spray-can
paint, but not the first time you try.

Surface prep is Critical.

Clean! No dirt. Minimize surface oxides.

Degreased! Use lots of paint thinner to eliminate
finger oil for example. Change application cloths
often so that you don't simply smear grease around.

Dry! Paint the object, not the fluid on the object.

Temperature is Critical with rattlecan paint.
Rig up an Air Oven if you want your paint
to stick. Adjust the temperature of your
parts towards the high end of the recommended
temperature on the can.
When you ignore this advice, you will be
rewarded with a tacky surface that never really
dries and falls off under fingernail pressure.

An 'air oven' can be as simple as several flood lamps
aimed at your part from various angles. I used a
length of air duct with a floodlight inside.
It provided a nice convective flow of warm air through
the parts that prepared them for painting and
dried them properly after painting.

Paint only in a well ventilated area.

--Winston

On 01/15/2011 11:16 PM, Winston wrote:
Tim Wescott wrote:

Rustoleum spray-bomb should work fine. Use their metal primer first,
then the color(s) of your choice. You _can_ do a good job with spray-can
paint, but not the first time you try.

Surface prep is Critical.

Clean! No dirt. Minimize surface oxides.

Degreased! Use lots of paint thinner to eliminate
finger oil for example. Change application cloths
often so that you don't simply smear grease around.

I would scrub everything in lots of hot water and strong detergent, and
then wear rubber gloves afterward to protect the part from finger
grease. Solvent is nice as a last step, but it takes lots and lots of
it to remove large amounts of grease.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

DA wrote:

The question naturally arose: "what paint to use?"
...
There won't be any actual steam there (compressed air)

Good Grief! Unbunch your panties, go to any autoparts (Pep boys, Kraken)
or home improvement store or any hobby shop, and just get any ol' paint!
OK, not "Any ol' paint" - probably not latex wall paint, but some kind of
enamel. If it's not going to be subjected to any abuse, even lacquer would
work.

Just be sure the parts are clean and you follow the label instructions
on the paint itself, and you'll be fine.

Some may recommend zinc chromate primer; I won't argue with them, but
it's probably not necessary, although it might make you feel more
comfortable with your paint job on your new toy. :-)

Have Fun!
Rich

On Jan 16, 4:04*am, Rich Grise wrote:

Some may recommend zinc chromate primer; I won't argue with them, but
it's probably not necessary, although it might make you feel more
comfortable with your paint job on your new toy. :-)

Have Fun!
Rich

I might recommend zinc chromate primer, if I thought you could find
any. They eliminated using zinc chromate primer where I use to work
about 15 years ago as the chromate is hazardous to your health. This
is not to say that you can not find ZCP, but it will not be easy.

Dan

On Sat, 15 Jan 2011 23:23:59 -0800, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On 01/15/2011 11:16 PM, Winston wrote:
Tim Wescott wrote:

Rustoleum spray-bomb should work fine. Use their metal primer first,
then the color(s) of your choice. You _can_ do a good job with spray-can
paint, but not the first time you try.

Surface prep is Critical.

Clean! No dirt. Minimize surface oxides.

Degreased! Use lots of paint thinner to eliminate
finger oil for example. Change application cloths
often so that you don't simply smear grease around.

I would scrub everything in lots of hot water and strong detergent, and
then wear rubber gloves afterward to protect the part from finger
grease. Solvent is nice as a last step, but it takes lots and lots of
it to remove large amounts of grease.
A phosphoric acid wash never hurts either - like Aluma-Prep-33 (or
simple water softener resin cleaner - virtually the same stuff)
(Phosphoric acid and ethyl polyol)

wrote:
On Jan 16, 4:04*am, Rich Grise wrote:

Some may recommend zinc chromate primer; I won't argue with them, but
it's probably not necessary, although it might make you feel more
comfortable with your paint job on your new toy. :-)

I might recommend zinc chromate primer, if I thought you could find
any. They eliminated using zinc chromate primer where I use to work
about 15 years ago as the chromate is hazardous to your health. This
is not to say that you can not find ZCP, but it will not be easy.

Oops! Apparently I've been "out of the loop" too long.

Thanks for the heads up!
Rich

responding to
http://www.rittercnc.com/metalworkin...ts-487279-.htm
DA wrote:

Tim Wescott wrote:

Rustoleum spray-bomb should work fine. Use their metal primer first,
then the color(s) of your choice. You _can_ do a good job with
spray-can paint, but not the first time you try.

Thank you for your replies, guys!

Yes, I will clean it well before doing anything. Thankfully, the parts are
reasonably clean to begin with, some of the flashing has already been
removed and they might have even washed the parts already but I'm going to
do it again anyways.

I see that the primer is the most important part of this combination. From
the looks of the parts, especially the body that is kinda open, i.e. needs
to be painted inside as well as outside, I think I'm going to stay away
from sprays for both primer and the top coat. It looks like it would be a
challenge to cover it well from a spray bottle.

So, I've found this Rust Oleum 8781-504 Aluminum Primer in 1qt cans on
Amazon :

http://www.amazon.com/Rust-Oleum-878...dp/B000LNQ8HA/

which looks like it'll work. As far as the top coat - I'm not sure yet.
I'll just browse HD or Lowes for some more Rust-oleum stuff.

Thanks again!

--
DA in PA

John R. Carroll wrote:
DA wrote:
responding to

http://www.rittercnc.com/metalworkin...ts-487279-.htm
DA wrote:

Tim Wescott wrote:

Rustoleum spray-bomb should work fine. Use their metal primer first,
then the color(s) of your choice. You _can_ do a good job with
spray-can paint, but not the first time you try.

Thank you for your replies, guys!

Yes, I will clean it well before doing anything. Thankfully, the
parts are reasonably clean to begin with, some of the flashing has
already been removed and they might have even washed the parts
already but I'm going to do it again anyways.

See if you can find someone local with an ultrasonic cleaning bath.

Geez! Get the schmutz off, but there's no point in being obsessive about it.

It doesn't have to be hospital-sterile. If the parts are small enough,
running them through the dishwasher (if they'll fit) will be more than
good enough, as long as you don't load them up with finger grease when
you unload them. I'd apply about the same standards of "clean" as if I
were hand-washing my own pots and pans.

But they _do_ need to be dry!

Cheers!
Rich

On Sun, 16 Jan 2011 16:05:24 -0500, wrote:

A phosphoric acid wash never hurts either - like Aluma-Prep-33 (or
simple water softener resin cleaner - virtually the same stuff)
(Phosphoric acid and ethyl polyol)

This stuff makes a huge difference with aluminum. It completely
degreases, and leaves a surface that really holds paint. It makes any
paint wet better and flow out nice and level. Aluma-Prep 33 is made
by PPG or Ditzler and is found at places that sell paint and supplies
for auto body work.

John R. Carroll wrote:
Rich Grise wrote:
John R. Carroll wrote:
...
See if you can find someone local with an ultrasonic cleaning bath.

Geez! Get the schmutz off, but there's no point in being obsessive
about it.
....
But they _do_ need to be dry!

It's pretty cheap these days.
He might even find a local guy to do it for free.
The advantage is that anything in a pore is removed.


Ah, pores! Okay, I've learned something today. I guess I can go back
to bed now! ;-D

Wait a minute - how do you know that the new coating will go into those
newly cleaned pores? Or does it just naturally go in by capillary action
or surface tension or adhesion or something?

Thanks!
Rich

"Rich Grise" wrote in message
...
John R. Carroll wrote:

Geez! Get the schmutz off, but there's no point in being obsessive about
it.

It doesn't have to be hospital-sterile. If the parts are small enough,
running them through the dishwasher (if they'll fit) will be more than

Run one mostly-complete cycle using detergent so as to thoroughly clean /
degrease and then restart, this time without detergent but instead adding a
mild alkaline to the first wash cycle--IIRC your ph needs to be slightly
above 10....if your water is hard or if the is ph excessive then you might
want to run a separate final rinse cycle using distilled water by temporary
unplugging the water solenoid and filling the tub by hand so as to avoid
mineral precipitation.

good enough, as long as you don't load them up with finger grease when
you unload them. I'd apply about the same standards of "clean" as if I
were hand-washing my own pots and pans.

But they _do_ need to be dry!

responding to
http://www.rittercnc.com/metalworkin...ts-487279-.htm
DA wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:

A phosphoric acid wash never hurts either - like Aluma-Prep-33 (or
simple water softener resin cleaner - virtually the same stuff)
(Phosphoric acid and ethyl polyol)

This stuff makes a huge difference with aluminum. It completely
degreases, and leaves a surface that really holds paint. It makes any
paint wet better and flow out nice and level. Aluma-Prep 33 is made
by PPG or Ditzler and is found at places that sell paint and supplies
for auto body work.

Thank you for the reference. Yes, I would much prefer something that works
yet makes no fumes (or less than paint thinners, anyway).

However, I was looking for sources for the cleaner and found this page at
Henkel http://bit.ly/dFiEMk that describes a product called Turco
ALUMIPREP 33 'Cleaner and Conditioner for Aluminum' - judging by
similarities in the name and that they do mention phosphoric acid, I think
it's the same product.
It looks like they do NOT recommend it for castings:

"Turco Alumiprep 33 should not be used on high copper bearing aluminum
alloys or aluminum castings."

Not on castings? Can someone who worked with phosphoric acid cleaner
comment on that please?

Or, and I do get Rich's comment about this not having to be
hospital-clean. Indeed it probably shouldn't be. But to paint these parts
properly is just a part of the fun for me - it is, after all, a hobby
project. That's why I keep bugging people with questions

--
DA in PA

On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 17:47:17 +0000,
(DA) wrote:

responding to
http://www.rittercnc.com/metalworkin...ts-487279-.htm
DA wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:

A phosphoric acid wash never hurts either - like Aluma-Prep-33 (or
simple water softener resin cleaner - virtually the same stuff)
(Phosphoric acid and ethyl polyol)

This stuff makes a huge difference with aluminum. It completely
degreases, and leaves a surface that really holds paint. It makes any
paint wet better and flow out nice and level. Aluma-Prep 33 is made
by PPG or Ditzler and is found at places that sell paint and supplies
for auto body work.

Thank you for the reference. Yes, I would much prefer something that works
yet makes no fumes (or less than paint thinners, anyway).

However, I was looking for sources for the cleaner and found this page at
Henkel http://bit.ly/dFiEMk that describes a product called Turco
ALUMIPREP 33 'Cleaner and Conditioner for Aluminum' - judging by
similarities in the name and that they do mention phosphoric acid, I think
it's the same product.
It looks like they do NOT recommend it for castings:

"Turco Alumiprep 33 should not be used on high copper bearing aluminum
alloys or aluminum castings."

Not on castings? Can someone who worked with phosphoric acid cleaner
comment on that please?

I didn't know that about Alumiprep.

Or, and I do get Rich's comment about this not having to be
hospital-clean. Indeed it probably shouldn't be.

You're both right. There's no such thing as too clean, but paint
isn't nearly as fussy as anodizing or plating.

On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 17:47:17 +0000,
(DA) wrote:

responding to
http://www.rittercnc.com/metalworkin...ts-487279-.htm
DA wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:

A phosphoric acid wash never hurts either - like Aluma-Prep-33 (or
simple water softener resin cleaner - virtually the same stuff)
(Phosphoric acid and ethyl polyol)

This stuff makes a huge difference with aluminum. It completely
degreases, and leaves a surface that really holds paint. It makes any
paint wet better and flow out nice and level. Aluma-Prep 33 is made
by PPG or Ditzler and is found at places that sell paint and supplies
for auto body work.

Thank you for the reference. Yes, I would much prefer something that works
yet makes no fumes (or less than paint thinners, anyway).

However, I was looking for sources for the cleaner and found this page at
Henkel http://bit.ly/dFiEMk that describes a product called Turco
ALUMIPREP 33 'Cleaner and Conditioner for Aluminum' - judging by
similarities in the name and that they do mention phosphoric acid, I think
it's the same product.
It looks like they do NOT recommend it for castings:

"Turco Alumiprep 33 should not be used on high copper bearing aluminum
alloys or aluminum castings."


"Not on high copper bearing ----- castings"
Not on castings? Can someone who worked with phosphoric acid cleaner
comment on that please?
Aluma-prep and alodine are both used on many aluminum castings (like
aircraft engine crank-cases)

Or, and I do get Rich's comment about this not having to be
hospital-clean. Indeed it probably shouldn't be. But to paint these parts
properly is just a part of the fun for me - it is, after all, a hobby
project. That's why I keep bugging people with questions
The ResCare product is roughly 10% of the cost of the Aluma-Prep and
has virtually the same composition. Readily available at plumbing
supply and home supply stores everywhere.

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

a mild alkaline to the first wash cycle--IIRC your ph needs to be slightly
above 10..

EEEK! OP didn't say if any of his parts are aluminum, but alkalis eat
aluminum for breakfast.

Hope This Helps!
Rich

Rich Grise wrote:
PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

a mild alkaline to the first wash cycle--IIRC your ph needs to be
slightly above 10..

EEEK! OP didn't say if any of his parts are aluminum, but alkalis eat
aluminum for breakfast.

Please allow me to remove my foot from my mouth. Right after hitting
"Send," I bothered to look at the subject line.

I will now give myself forty lashes with a wet noodle.

Thanks,
Rich

On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 12:30:57 -0800, Rich Grise
wrote:

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

a mild alkaline to the first wash cycle--IIRC your ph needs to be slightly
above 10..

EEEK! OP didn't say if any of his parts are aluminum, but alkalis eat
aluminum for breakfast.

Hope This Helps!
Rich
The emphasis is on MILD. Most organic degreasers are alkaline.

wrote:
On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 12:30:57 -0800, Rich Grise
PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

a mild alkaline to the first wash cycle--IIRC your ph needs to be
slightly above 10..

EEEK! OP didn't say if any of his parts are aluminum, but alkalis eat
aluminum for breakfast.

The emphasis is on MILD. Most organic degreasers are alkaline.

Well, I _am_ teachable, and it's dead easy to see what some baking soda
does to a piece of aluminum. When I get a round tuit, I'll report back
with my results.

I _have_ heard that something like lye, which is an amazingly effective
cleaner (like oven cleaner; you can use it on ring-around-the-collar in
the laundry), does damage aluminum, but that wasn't what was being
discussed; I should engage my brain before throwing my keyboard into
gear.

Thanks!
Rich

Rich Grise wrote:
....
... lye, ... you can use it on ring-around-the-collar in
the laundry)...

Just don't use it on cotton shirts. Or linen. Or silk.

Bob

On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 20:12:07 -0500, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

Rich Grise wrote:
...
... lye, ... you can use it on ring-around-the-collar in
the laundry)...

Just don't use it on cotton shirts. Or linen. Or silk.

Bob
Lye soap works GREAT on cotton shirts. Pretty good on linen too.

But then Lye soap is not straight lye - it is lye reacted with fats.

Lye itself has a very HIGH pH.

Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Rich Grise wrote:
...
... lye, ... you can use it on ring-around-the-collar in
the laundry)...

Just don't use it on cotton shirts. Or linen. Or silk.

You can afford silk shirts? And they get ring-around-the-collar? =:-O

:-
Rich