On 2010-11-09, Wes wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:

I don't know in terms of documents or corroborating witnesses, but I
suspect that he was. I am not going to elaborate on why I suspect
that. Feel free to believe as you might.

Calling a man a liar is a serious thing. I've run into a number of
people and their stories where I really wanted to call bull**** but
the counter side is if I am wrong, I've just ruined my credibility.
Those were not situations related to military service to frame my
comments properly.

I also suspect, that if you considered Gunner a fraud, you would bore in with your
considerable analytical skills and tear his stories a part.

So lets get back to metalworking, something Gunner also knows a bit about.



What we have is a very unusual story. Gunner says that he was enlisted
into the military under a false name, underage, has no records of his
service, no discharge papers, does not want to see those who served
with him, and does not say under what name he served.

Is it possible that he really did serve? It is possible. Would I
believe this sort of thing automatically, just because I heard it
here? Of course no. The fact that I cannot believe it only says
something about me, and is not, as such, disparaging about Gunner.

I, of course, have no proof that he did not serve (such as public
records from 1970 showing him as being somewhere else, getting many
speeding tickets over many months or something of the sort), and so I
cannot be sure either way.

I have no idea what makes Don Foreman believe Gunner, but it hopefully
is something very convincing.

Again, I am not saying that I somehow know that Gunner made his
military story up, because I do not know. All I am saying is that it
would need some corroboration, because it is so unusual.

I am not a veteran and I do not have a personal stake in this story,
such as some Navy seals who look out for fake Navy seals with zeal,
etc. I would not really think less of Gunner if it turned out that he
made the story up. Even if it turns out that he is unable to prove his
service, it would be cool with me.

i

Ignoramus32694 wrote:

What we have is a very unusual story. Gunner says that he was enlisted
into the military under a false name, underage, has no records of his
service, no discharge papers, does not want to see those who served
with him, and does not say under what name he served.


Sigh. As usual, your ignorance shines through. I recently lost a
friend who was underage when W.W.II started. He did the same thing, with
the help of a recruiter. He was a ham radio operator, and they needed
people to work in communications. He went into the Navy and was a radio
operator all through W.W.II. After his discharge, he worked as a radio
operator for a large shipping company, aboard various cargo ships.

As far as the name he served under it's really none of your damn
business, any more than him knowing your Social Security number and
having access to all your bank information. Giving that name could put
his life at risk, as well.


From time to time it takes the local Veteran's groups time to find
someone's records because of their having served under another name.
That leaves their body waiting in a funeral home until the records are
straightened out, for a proper burial at a military cemetery.

Since you never served, and don't know a damn thing about how things
worked in the military you continue to make a bigger fool of yourself.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

On 2010-11-10, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ignoramus32694 wrote:

What we have is a very unusual story. Gunner says that he was enlisted
into the military under a false name, underage, has no records of his
service, no discharge papers, does not want to see those who served
with him, and does not say under what name he served.


Sigh. As usual, your ignorance shines through. I recently lost a
friend who was underage when W.W.II started. He did the same thing, with
the help of a recruiter. He was a ham radio operator, and they needed
people to work in communications. He went into the Navy and was a radio
operator all through W.W.II. After his discharge, he worked as a radio
operator for a large shipping company, aboard various cargo ships.

As far as the name he served under it's really none of your damn
business, any more than him knowing your Social Security number and
having access to all your bank information. Giving that name could put
his life at risk, as well.


From time to time it takes the local Veteran's groups time to find
someone's records because of their having served under another name.
That leaves their body waiting in a funeral home until the records are
straightened out, for a proper burial at a military cemetery.

Since you never served, and don't know a damn thing about how things
worked in the military you continue to make a bigger fool of yourself.



OK, I will shut up.

i

Ignoramus32694 wrote:
On 2010-11-09, Wes wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:

I don't know in terms of documents or corroborating witnesses, but I
suspect that he was. I am not going to elaborate on why I suspect
that. Feel free to believe as you might.
Calling a man a liar is a serious thing. I've run into a number of
people and their stories where I really wanted to call bull**** but
the counter side is if I am wrong, I've just ruined my credibility.
Those were not situations related to military service to frame my
comments properly.

I also suspect, that if you considered Gunner a fraud, you would bore in with your
considerable analytical skills and tear his stories a part.

So lets get back to metalworking, something Gunner also knows a bit about.



What we have is a very unusual story. Gunner says that he was enlisted
into the military under a false name, underage, has no records of his
service, no discharge papers, does not want to see those who served
with him, and does not say under what name he served.

My FIL served in the Army during WWII.
BUT he has NO paperwork, because he tossed it when he got out.
ALL his records were destroyed in the fire that wiped out a LOT of
service records.
He doesn't even remember most of the people he served with and doesn't
want to see the ones he did serve with.
His only "proof" that he served is a picture of him taken in uniform.


Is it possible that he really did serve? It is possible. Would I
believe this sort of thing automatically, just because I heard it
here? Of course no. The fact that I cannot believe it only says
something about me, and is not, as such, disparaging about Gunner.

I, of course, have no proof that he did not serve (such as public
records from 1970 showing him as being somewhere else, getting many
speeding tickets over many months or something of the sort), and so I
cannot be sure either way.

I have no idea what makes Don Foreman believe Gunner, but it hopefully
is something very convincing.

Again, I am not saying that I somehow know that Gunner made his
military story up, because I do not know. All I am saying is that it
would need some corroboration, because it is so unusual.

Not really. You would have to know about the time period. It was VERY
common for the same type of thing to happen during WWII.
There were more than a few underage folks who served in Korea (I have an
uncle who was 15 when he joined up, they were desperate for men so they
looked the other way)

I know of one person who did basically the same thing as Gunner did
during 'Nam. He did it because the Marines offered a better chance than
the area in the city that he came from.
In Jims case he had a fake birth certificate made up with a different
name. He joined up at 17 and served 2 full and 1 partial tour (came home
about 3 months into the third tour with a serious wound and missing most
of a hand and one eye gone).
His records may still exist but not under his real name.
The crew he served with is mostly dead (killed at the same time he was
wounded) and he doesn't like to talk about his time there either.
Mainly because of the BS that folks tend to heap on about him being
there in the first place.

I am not a veteran and I do not have a personal stake in this story,
such as some Navy seals who look out for fake Navy seals with zeal,
etc. I would not really think less of Gunner if it turned out that he
made the story up. Even if it turns out that he is unable to prove his
service, it would be cool with me.

Do I believe Gunner served. Yes I do. Not because of anyone else but
because of some of what he has said and a lot of what he hasn't said.

On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 17:57:29 -0600, Ignoramus32694
wrote:

On 2010-11-09, Wes wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:

I don't know in terms of documents or corroborating witnesses, but I
suspect that he was. I am not going to elaborate on why I suspect
that. Feel free to believe as you might.

Calling a man a liar is a serious thing. I've run into a number of
people and their stories where I really wanted to call bull**** but
the counter side is if I am wrong, I've just ruined my credibility.
Those were not situations related to military service to frame my
comments properly.

I also suspect, that if you considered Gunner a fraud, you would bore in with your
considerable analytical skills and tear his stories a part.

So lets get back to metalworking, something Gunner also knows a bit about.



What we have is a very unusual story. Gunner says that he was enlisted
into the military under a false name, underage, has no records of his
service, no discharge papers, does not want to see those who served
with him, and does not say under what name he served.

Is it possible that he really did serve? It is possible. Would I
believe this sort of thing automatically, just because I heard it
here? Of course no. The fact that I cannot believe it only says
something about me, and is not, as such, disparaging about Gunner.

I, of course, have no proof that he did not serve (such as public
records from 1970 showing him as being somewhere else, getting many
speeding tickets over many months or something of the sort), and so I
cannot be sure either way.

I have no idea what makes Don Foreman believe Gunner, but it hopefully
is something very convincing.

Again, I am not saying that I somehow know that Gunner made his
military story up, because I do not know. All I am saying is that it
would need some corroboration, because it is so unusual.

I am not a veteran and I do not have a personal stake in this story,
such as some Navy seals who look out for fake Navy seals with zeal,
etc. I would not really think less of Gunner if it turned out that he
made the story up. Even if it turns out that he is unable to prove his
service, it would be cool with me.

i

I said I wouldn't elaborate, but now I feel like I must.

I was sniffing at this long before Gunner-bashing became such a
popular activity on RCM because I too saw some discrepancies in his
various narratives. My bull**** detector works just fine, as do the
hackles on the back of my neck. That indicated to me that there are
some things he intends to keep concealed, but that doesn't mean that
his entire story is contrived bull****.

I'm a research puke. Research pukes are sorta like detectives of
science. Jumping to conclusions based on insufficent data usually
results in error, aside from flashes of intuition from singularly
brilliant ... well, nevermind that. G

Details and minutiae indicate to me that he either was there and did
that or he is one hell of a researcher and reader, because I've not
caught a single clinker in his notes on military life and service.
Sparse records of military service are not nearly as unusual as some
might think. I have a DD214 but there is little or no other record
of my activities while in service. My 201 file may be unfindably
buried in a file cabinet in St. Louis, but I reviewed my 201 file
shortly before separation. It contained officer efficiency reports,
grades and honors from various military training courses and schools,
medical records, copies of vague TDY orders, marital status, will,
blood type, religious preference ... and about zilch about what I'd
actually been doing most of the time.

An enlisted man serving under a false name who got crosswise with
certain agencies would have been a perfect patsy for ops gone bad in
SEA, and/or for actions that might be viewed as atrocities later by
those who weren't there and couldn't possibly judge in context. Westy
was far more a politician than a soldier's general. A lot of shameful
**** by the Citizens In Action went down on his watch.

DA is notorious for discharging vets with PTSD etc as "psychologically
unfit for service" or some such bull**** other than honorable
discharge, to avoid VA treatment costs. This is going on to this
day with men and women returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. It's
disgraceful.

I can see discrepancies in Gunner's narratives as well as anyone else,
perhaps better than most. I really don't give a ****.
Those that keep attacking him seem to me to be like the punks that
would rip wings off of flies, torture kittens, or attack a vet
anonymously (and therefore cowardly) on usenet, like those that spat
on returning vets from 'Nam and survived that dispicable behavior only
by the remarkable forbearance of the spat upon.

I've ripped him a new one a few times about his strident expression of
viewpoints I disagreed with. I must say he responded respectfully
and responsively. Matter of fact, my viewpoint on gun rights and
ownership has moved toward his over the past decade or so. I was
never anti-gun though Gunner almost made me so back in the day.

I think he is doing a bit of not-so-artful dodging, but my unprovable
opinion is that he is a bona fide U.S. Army combat vet. That's all
anyone needs to know.

Gunner, you really need to quit smokin', right now, totally and
forever, set the example if you're surrounded by smokers, no excuses
or you don't have a hair on your ass worth saving.

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
snip
I think he is doing a bit of not-so-artful dodging, but my unprovable
opinion is that he is a bona fide U.S. Army combat vet. That's all
anyone needs to know.

Gunner, you really need to quit smokin', right now, totally and
forever, set the example if you're surrounded by smokers, no excuses
or you don't have a hair on your ass worth saving.

Nice comment, Don.
Perhaps you can provide some insight for me on why he is seeking to
perpetuate this "Great Cull" nonsense. I just don't see what's in it for
him.

Is he just playing with the noobs? Does he really think that anyone would
believe his fantasy?

Is he trying to frighten people? (Again, how could anyone believe such pap?)

Doesn't he see how silly it makes him look? Hell, not "silly". Downright
disgusting and amoral.

I just don't get it. (obviously). Why does he do it?

--
Jeff R.

Jeff R. wrote:

I just don't get it. (obviously). Why does he do it?

Wishful thinking and obstinate ignorance, I think. Although, denied
self-hatred probably figures into it.

I think he's going to be terribly surprised as to just who, exactly,
gets "culled."

Thanks,
Rich

On Nov 10, 3:54*am, "Jeff R." wrote:

Perhaps you can provide some insight for me on why he is seeking to
perpetuate this "Great Cull" *nonsense. *I just don't see what's in it for
him.

Is he just playing with the noobs? Does he really think that anyone would
believe his fantasy?

Is he trying to frighten people? (Again, how could anyone believe such pap?)

Doesn't he see how silly it makes him look? *Hell, not "silly". *Downright
disgusting and amoral.

I just don't get it. (obviously). *Why does he do it?


Have you figured out why Cliff starts as many threads as he does? And
why he cross posts to so many groups? Do you see what is in it for
Cliff? Does he really think that anyone believes the stuff he posts?
Do you think Cliff sees how silly it makes him look.

I think that Gunner and Cliff are essentially alike. They just do it
to provoke people.

Dan

--
Jeff R.

wrote in message
...
On Nov 10, 3:54 am, "Jeff R." wrote:

Perhaps you can provide some insight for me on why he is seeking to
perpetuate this "Great Cull" nonsense. I just don't see what's in it for
him.

Is he just playing with the noobs? Does he really think that anyone would
believe his fantasy?

Is he trying to frighten people? (Again, how could anyone believe such
pap?)

Doesn't he see how silly it makes him look? Hell, not "silly". Downright
disgusting and amoral.

I just don't get it. (obviously). Why does he do it?


Have you figured out why Cliff starts as many threads as he does? And
why he cross posts to so many groups? Do you see what is in it for
Cliff? Does he really think that anyone believes the stuff he posts?
Do you think Cliff sees how silly it makes him look.

I think that Gunner and Cliff are essentially alike. They just do it
to provoke people.

Dan

--
Jeff R.

Time will tell. Time will tell.

On 11/9/2010 3:57 PM, Ignoramus32694 wrote:
On 2010-11-09, wrote:
Don wrote:

I don't know in terms of documents or corroborating witnesses, but I
suspect that he was. I am not going to elaborate on why I suspect
that. Feel free to believe as you might.

Calling a man a liar is a serious thing. I've run into a number of
people and their stories where I really wanted to call bull**** but
the counter side is if I am wrong, I've just ruined my credibility.
Those were not situations related to military service to frame my
comments properly.

I also suspect, that if you considered Gunner a fraud, you would bore in with your
considerable analytical skills and tear his stories a part.

So lets get back to metalworking, something Gunner also knows a bit about.



What we have is a very unusual story. Gunner says that he was enlisted
into the military under a false name, underage, has no records of his
service, no discharge papers, does not want to see those who served
with him, and does not say under what name he served.

Is it possible that he really did serve? It is possible. Would I
believe this sort of thing automatically, just because I heard it
here? Of course no. The fact that I cannot believe it only says
something about me, and is not, as such, disparaging about Gunner.

I, of course, have no proof that he did not serve (such as public
records from 1970 showing him as being somewhere else, getting many
speeding tickets over many months or something of the sort), and so I
cannot be sure either way.

I have no idea what makes Don Foreman believe Gunner, but it hopefully
is something very convincing.

Again, I am not saying that I somehow know that Gunner made his
military story up, because I do not know. All I am saying is that it
would need some corroboration, because it is so unusual.

I am not a veteran and I do not have a personal stake in this story,
such as some Navy seals who look out for fake Navy seals with zeal,
etc. I would not really think less of Gunner if it turned out that he
made the story up. Even if it turns out that he is unable to prove his
service, it would be cool with me.

i


It's real simple. People have caught Gummer telling lies in the past.
Okay, he's been caught before. You can look it up if you want but I have
read posts from people who have caught him making stuff up. Then you add
on to it all the stories he tells that sound really fishy. When you're
done you have a guy who you can't trust what he says. That's all. You
just don't know when he's being truthful or when he's making **** up.
Which is why I just don't believe what he says. Especially when he said
one time he could bench press 400 pounds. I know that's a crock of ****.
So believe anything you want. I'm just saying after hearing this guy for
years I don't believe him, ever.

Hawke

On Wed, 10 Nov 2010 19:54:49 +1100, "Jeff R." wrote:


"Don Foreman" wrote in message
.. .

Nice comment, Don.
Perhaps you can provide some insight for me on why he is seeking to
perpetuate this "Great Cull" nonsense. I just don't see what's in it for
him.

Is he just playing with the noobs? Does he really think that anyone would
believe his fantasy?

Is he trying to frighten people? (Again, how could anyone believe such pap?)

Doesn't he see how silly it makes him look? Hell, not "silly". Downright
disgusting and amoral.

I just don't get it. (obviously). Why does he do it?

The cull stuff presents an interesting enigma, doesn't it!

It might be a troll.

He might really be that damaged and nuts. Is he as nuts as Ira Hayes
was after Iwo Jima? Evaluating that would require face time. I'd
like face time with Gunner but I'm not about to travel to Taft, CA.
That could change if Mary makes me a widower but that isn't in the
cards quite yet. Today she mentioned that she has a happy mind and
heart, and it's quite evident that it's so.

Armed revolt of the peasants is not entirely unthinkable. This country
was formed by such a revolt. Arms and ammunition sales and prices
have skyrocketed since the election of 2008. The tea party was
unquestionably a factor in the 2010 election. There clearly is
dissatisfaction with the gummint extant among the people, and some are
quite angry.

A bit of thought and processing of other Gunner history (as narrated
by himself in bits and snatches over more than a decade) untangles
this clearly enough for me, but only as opinion falling short of
conclusive argument.





Your questions seem to be more like veiled assertions since you
suggest answers.

Have fun! Gunnerbashing does seem to appeal to some, and he obviously
invites it.

Anonymous Wayne, wmbjk, dedicated Gunnerbasher, where art thou?

On Nov 11, 2:13*am, Hawke wrote:


So believe anything you want. I'm just saying after hearing this guy for
years I don't believe him, ever.

Hawke

What is the word for someone who has already made up their mind? Oh
yes, Prejudiced.

Dan

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Nov 2010 19:54:49 +1100, "Jeff R." wrote:


"Don Foreman" wrote in message
. ..

Nice comment, Don.
Perhaps you can provide some insight for me on why he is seeking to
perpetuate this "Great Cull" nonsense. I just don't see what's in it for
him.

Is he just playing with the noobs? Does he really think that anyone would
believe his fantasy?

Is he trying to frighten people? (Again, how could anyone believe such
pap?)

Doesn't he see how silly it makes him look? Hell, not "silly". Downright
disgusting and amoral.

I just don't get it. (obviously). Why does he do it?

The cull stuff presents an interesting enigma, doesn't it!

It might be a troll.

He might really be that damaged and nuts. Is he as nuts as Ira Hayes
was after Iwo Jima? Evaluating that would require face time. I'd
like face time with Gunner but I'm not about to travel to Taft, CA.
That could change if Mary makes me a widower but that isn't in the
cards quite yet. Today she mentioned that she has a happy mind and
heart, and it's quite evident that it's so.

Armed revolt of the peasants is not entirely unthinkable. This country
was formed by such a revolt. Arms and ammunition sales and prices
have skyrocketed since the election of 2008. The tea party was
unquestionably a factor in the 2010 election. There clearly is
dissatisfaction with the gummint extant among the people, and some are
quite angry.

A bit of thought and processing of other Gunner history (as narrated
by himself in bits and snatches over more than a decade) untangles
this clearly enough for me, but only as opinion falling short of
conclusive argument.





Your questions seem to be more like veiled assertions since you
suggest answers.

Have fun! Gunnerbashing does seem to appeal to some, and he obviously
invites it.

Anonymous Wayne, wmbjk, dedicated Gunnerbasher, where art thou?

I believe the running elk has not yet reached the end of its rope. The
change of Congresscritters was a plus, but time will tell if it was only an
changing of foxes to guard the henhouse. Inflation is coming due to
increased printing of money. China is ****ed at us for this. Gas prices
will rise due to tree huggers and money valuation. The pocketbooks is
strained in most households. When things start to pop, and we have one
frustrated angry person here and there clinging to their guns and bibles
joining together, we may see organized protests. I'm really surprised that
we haven't seen more visible white supremacist activity and "man caused
disasters." They certainly have the capability, ala OK City.

Time will tell. Time will tell.

Neville Chamberlain had a large following. Everybody can't be right, so
that leaves some who were wrong.

Steve

Heart surgery pending?
Read up and prepare.
Learn how to care for a friend.
http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

wrote in message
...
On Nov 11, 2:13 am, Hawke wrote:


So believe anything you want. I'm just saying after hearing this guy for
years I don't believe him, ever.

Hawke

What is the word for someone who has already made up their mind? Oh
yes, Prejudiced.

Dan

Sorry, Dan, I have chickenhawke roundfiled, so will respond to you.

At the end of the Vietnam war, lots of my friends were coming home talking
about the one world conspiracy, Bilderbergers, the tri-lateralist comission,
government surveillence, all sorts of things. They were promoting moving up
into the mountains, self-sustinence, stockpiling of ammunition and supplies.

What a bunch of nuts, I thought. Just PTSD.

Over time, I have come to agree with some of their views, and some of them
were spot on.

Hello, people. We're at a point where the government is telling us what
kind of light bulbs we can use based on false science. That we can't have
toys in our kids Happy Meals, and that we can't cut the fire hazards around
our houses because of some small critter. Government is way over the line
of what a govenment is supposed to do, and now the Constitution is being
viewed by judges as an archaeological artifact, not a directive. And if we
continue on this liberal socialist path, we will go the way of all the great
civilizations before us. But maybe that is in the cosmic design, for all
things to have a life span, then self destruct.

It's not coming. It's here.

Steve

Heart surgery pending?
Read up and prepare.
Learn how to care for a friend.
http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

On 2010-11-11, wrote:
On Nov 11, 2:13?am, Hawke wrote:


So believe anything you want. I'm just saying after hearing this guy for
years I don't believe him, ever.

Hawke

What is the word for someone who has already made up their mind? Oh
yes, Prejudiced.

The only way to find out would be to ask historians of the 75th. They
could definitively answer whether Gunner could serve in RVN in
1971-1973 under any name.

I do not prejudice myself either way, I do not believe that he served
based on what I heard, but I do not dismiss the possibility of that,
either.

i

"Ignoramus4438" wrote in message
...
On 2010-11-11, wrote:
On Nov 11, 2:13?am, Hawke wrote:


So believe anything you want. I'm just saying after hearing this guy for
years I don't believe him, ever.

Hawke

What is the word for someone who has already made up their mind? Oh
yes, Prejudiced.

The only way to find out would be to ask historians of the 75th. They
could definitively answer whether Gunner could serve in RVN in
1971-1973 under any name.

I do not prejudice myself either way, I do not believe that he served
based on what I heard, but I do not dismiss the possibility of that,
either.

i

And I say that if every person here were investigated in depth, they would
not pass muster.

Especially me.

Some people claim perfection, but I hope never to be that sick.

Steve

Heart surgery pending?
Read up and prepare.
Learn how to care for a friend.
http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

On 2010-11-11, Steve B wrote:

"Ignoramus4438" wrote in message
...
On 2010-11-11, wrote:
On Nov 11, 2:13?am, Hawke wrote:


So believe anything you want. I'm just saying after hearing this guy for
years I don't believe him, ever.

Hawke

What is the word for someone who has already made up their mind? Oh
yes, Prejudiced.

The only way to find out would be to ask historians of the 75th. They
could definitively answer whether Gunner could serve in RVN in
1971-1973 under any name.

I do not prejudice myself either way, I do not believe that he served
based on what I heard, but I do not dismiss the possibility of that,
either.

i

And I say that if every person here were investigated in depth, they would
not pass muster.

Especially me.

Some people claim perfection, but I hope never to be that sick.

Same here.

i

On 11/11/2010 7:09 AM, wrote:
On Nov 11, 2:13 am, wrote:


So believe anything you want. I'm just saying after hearing this guy for
years I don't believe him, ever.

Hawke

What is the word for someone who has already made up their mind? Oh
yes, Prejudiced.

Dan



Nah, the word you're looking for is "convinced". As in after years of
hearing things that didn't ring true, he convinced me that his word was
not to be trusted. Prejudiced means to prejudge or have one's mind made
up before hearing the facts. So that word is wrong. I never believed
Gummer to be lying until so many thing started to not add up.

Hawke

On 11/11/2010 10:35 AM, Ignoramus4438 wrote:
On 2010-11-11, wrote:
On Nov 11, 2:13?am, wrote:


So believe anything you want. I'm just saying after hearing this guy for
years I don't believe him, ever.

Hawke

What is the word for someone who has already made up their mind? Oh
yes, Prejudiced.

The only way to find out would be to ask historians of the 75th. They
could definitively answer whether Gunner could serve in RVN in
1971-1973 under any name.

I do not prejudice myself either way, I do not believe that he served
based on what I heard, but I do not dismiss the possibility of that,
either.

i


It would be different if the only thing that we questioned is Gummer's
military service record. But it's not. It's all kinds of other things
that he's said that you wonder about. Like him saying he had an IQ in
the 150 range, and that he could bench press 400 pounds. There's lots
more too. So it's not just one little thing that makes him not credible.
It's lots of things.
What I'm saying is that if it was just one thing that would not be
something I would normally doubt. But when it's so many questionable
things I start thinking none of it is true. Why do I think like that?
I've known lots of liars. One thing about them is that they don't just
lie about one thing. They lie about everything even when it's
meaningless they lie. So anyone can believe as much or as little of what
Gummer says. At this point I treat everything he says as if it's all
made up until I get some kind of outside verification. The rest of you
can believe every word. It doesn't matter to me.

Hawke

On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 21:04:04 -0800, Hawke
wrote:

On 11/11/2010 7:09 AM, wrote:
On Nov 11, 2:13 am, wrote:


So believe anything you want. I'm just saying after hearing this guy for
years I don't believe him, ever.

Hawke

What is the word for someone who has already made up their mind? Oh
yes, Prejudiced.

Dan



Nah, the word you're looking for is "convinced". As in after years of
hearing things that didn't ring true, he convinced me that his word was
not to be trusted. Prejudiced means to prejudge or have one's mind made
up before hearing the facts. So that word is wrong. I never believed
Gummer to be lying until so many thing started to not add up.

Hawke

Your words, visible above:
So believe anything you want. I'm just saying after hearing this guy for
years I don't believe him, ever.

Then you say,
Prejudiced means to prejudge or have one's mind made
up before hearing the facts.

Your declaration that "I don't believe him, ever" seems to perfectly
fit your definition of prejudice.

On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 21:13:04 -0800, Hawke
wrote:


It would be different if the only thing that we questioned is Gummer's
military service record. But it's not. It's all kinds of other things
that he's said that you wonder about. Like him saying he had an IQ in
the 150 range, and that he could bench press 400 pounds.

I knew a few soldiers with the military equivalent of IQ in the 150
range and above, and I knew several that could benchpress 400 lb. Not
all were huge beef hunks, some were medium to small and wiry but very
strong and quick as well. Photos indicate that Gunner is not exactly
a feathermerchant, noticably bigger than men I've known that could
press 400. So the assertions are plausible to me without evidence to
the contrary. YMMV.

Re veteran's day: you're quite welcome.

On Nov 12, 12:04*am, Hawke wrote:

Nah, the word you're looking for is "convinced". As in after years of
hearing things that didn't ring true, he convinced me that his word was
not to be trusted. Prejudiced means to prejudge or have one's mind made
up before hearing the facts. So that word is wrong. I never believed
Gummer to be lying until so many thing started to not add up.

Hawke

I think " prejudiced " is the right word. I do not read everything
Gunner posts, and do not really care if he stretches the truth or
not. But when I do read one of his posts, I judge it on its own
merits. If I had decided that everything he posts was a lie, I would
not read anything he posted.

I do not believe that everything Mark Twain wrote is absolutely the
truth. But that does not prevent me from enjoying reading books he
wrote.

Dan

On 11/11/2010 10:34 PM, Don Foreman wrote:
On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 21:04:04 -0800, Hawke
wrote:

On 11/11/2010 7:09 AM, wrote:
On Nov 11, 2:13 am, wrote:


So believe anything you want. I'm just saying after hearing this guy for
years I don't believe him, ever.

Hawke

What is the word for someone who has already made up their mind? Oh
yes, Prejudiced.

Dan



Nah, the word you're looking for is "convinced". As in after years of
hearing things that didn't ring true, he convinced me that his word was
not to be trusted. Prejudiced means to prejudge or have one's mind made
up before hearing the facts. So that word is wrong. I never believed
Gummer to be lying until so many thing started to not add up.

Hawke

Your words, visible above:
So believe anything you want. I'm just saying after hearing this guy for
years I don't believe him, ever.

Then you say,
Prejudiced means to prejudge or have one's mind made
up before hearing the facts.

Your declaration that "I don't believe him, ever" seems to perfectly
fit your definition of prejudice.



No, what I said was after years of hearing things that didn't add up
that I no longer believe anything he says. It's like being in a
courtroom when someone on the witness stand is caught lying. After that
people question everything that person says. Gummer has said way too
many things that don't ring true to me. So I take them as not true until
they are verified, and at this point nothing is verified. But you are
correct that at this point I am prejudiced against anything Gummer says.
But he earned that. I didn't start out that way, which would have been
prejudice.

Hawke

On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 00:33:54 -0800, Hawke
wrote:

On 11/11/2010 10:34 PM, Don Foreman wrote:
On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 21:04:04 -0800, Hawke
wrote:

On 11/11/2010 7:09 AM, wrote:
On Nov 11, 2:13 am, wrote:


So believe anything you want. I'm just saying after hearing this guy for
years I don't believe him, ever.

Hawke

What is the word for someone who has already made up their mind? Oh
yes, Prejudiced.

Dan



Nah, the word you're looking for is "convinced". As in after years of
hearing things that didn't ring true, he convinced me that his word was
not to be trusted. Prejudiced means to prejudge or have one's mind made
up before hearing the facts. So that word is wrong. I never believed
Gummer to be lying until so many thing started to not add up.

Hawke

Your words, visible above:
So believe anything you want. I'm just saying after hearing this guy for
years I don't believe him, ever.

Then you say,
Prejudiced means to prejudge or have one's mind made
up before hearing the facts.

Your declaration that "I don't believe him, ever" seems to perfectly
fit your definition of prejudice.



No, what I said was after years of hearing things that didn't add up
that I no longer believe anything he says. It's like being in a
courtroom when someone on the witness stand is caught lying. After that
people question everything that person says. Gummer has said way too
many things that don't ring true to me. So I take them as not true until
they are verified, and at this point nothing is verified. But you are
correct that at this point I am prejudiced against anything Gummer says.
But he earned that. I didn't start out that way, which would have been
prejudice.

Hawke

Prejudice is a loaded word. Everyone has some prejudices, often based
on experience, and everyone's experience is unique because part of
experience is interpretive. These prejudices may be somewhat
irrational, but so are instincts.

On 2010-11-13, Don Foreman wrote:
No, what I said was after years of hearing things that didn't add up
that I no longer believe anything he says. It's like being in a
courtroom when someone on the witness stand is caught lying. After that
people question everything that person says. Gummer has said way too
many things that don't ring true to me. So I take them as not true until
they are verified, and at this point nothing is verified. But you are
correct that at this point I am prejudiced against anything Gummer says.
But he earned that. I didn't start out that way, which would have been
prejudice.

Prejudice is a loaded word. Everyone has some prejudices, often based
on experience, and everyone's experience is unique because part of
experience is interpretive. These prejudices may be somewhat
irrational, but so are instincts.

Exactly. As we live and learn life experience, we find out that there
are certain circumstances when believing something without very
serious proof is not warranted. For example, if I am approached by a
Nigerian businessman (of any skin color, of course) with a business
proposal, I must admit that I would not even give it serious
consideration.

i

On Mon, 08 Nov 2010 23:12:04 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Mon, 08 Nov 2010 09:55:00 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Jon Anderson on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 07:44:12
-0800 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Sun, 07 Nov 2010 18:23:46 -0800, Hawke

Sorry, but you're wrong. I have never made any comments about what
combat is like. Why? I've never been in combat. So unlike many folks
around here I don't comment on it one way or another. I said I know a
lot about war and about the military, not combat. They are not the same
thing. When it comes to those subjects I'm like Howard Cosell, who knew
a lot about football but never played the game.

Knowing a lot about war without knowing anything about combat seems a
lot like knowing a lot about sex while still being a virgin...

LOL.

OTOH, one can learn enough about combat, to know you do not want
to experience it. Same goes for sex.

I'm trying to remember where I read this, but the dialogue is
"Your grandpa never talks about what he did in the war. I'd ask him,
and he get a far away look, and then change the subject. Actually,
Dad did tell me a lot about war."

tschus
pyotr

I figured a rule of thumb, the more they talk about non-combat related
war stories, the higher the probability they were in combat. Of
course, there is a serious difference between combat veterans talking
to those who have been there, and them talking to those who haven't.

Some vets in rural MN are beginning to tell their stories, though some
are choosing to remain mum.

http://tinyurl.com/2d4449h

Long past time.

Gunner

--
"Confiscating wealth from those who have earned it, inherited it,
or got lucky is never going to help 'the poor.' Poverty isn't
caused by some people having more money than others, just as obesity
isn't caused by McDonald's serving super-sized orders of French fries
Poverty, like obesity, is caused by the life choices that dictate
results." - John Tucci,

On Wed, 10 Nov 2010 01:22:56 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:


Gunner, you really need to quit smokin', right now, totally and
forever, set the example if you're surrounded by smokers, no excuses
or you don't have a hair on your ass worth saving.

Im in the middle of trying ...again.

Lets see what happens...again.

Gunner

--
"Confiscating wealth from those who have earned it, inherited it,
or got lucky is never going to help 'the poor.' Poverty isn't
caused by some people having more money than others, just as obesity
isn't caused by McDonald's serving super-sized orders of French fries
Poverty, like obesity, is caused by the life choices that dictate
results." - John Tucci,

On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 08:51:43 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:

Anonymous Wayne, wmbjk, dedicated Gunnerbasher, where art thou?

I believe the running elk has not yet reached the end of its rope. The
change of Congresscritters was a plus, but time will tell if it was only an
changing of foxes to guard the henhouse. Inflation is coming due to
increased printing of money. China is ****ed at us for this. Gas prices
will rise due to tree huggers and money valuation. The pocketbooks is
strained in most households. When things start to pop, and we have one
frustrated angry person here and there clinging to their guns and bibles
joining together, we may see organized protests. I'm really surprised that
we haven't seen more visible white supremacist activity and "man caused
disasters." They certainly have the capability, ala OK City.


It has little to do with race, white supremicist yada yada. It all has
to do with political outlook.

As Ive mentioned..Im not white. Im Native American. Many of my friends
and buddies are black, brown, white, yellow and each of them..well..most
of them are Conservative. Not Republican, not Democrat, not Libertarian
etc etc.

Few of them hold much hope for political parties as they stand today.

Frankly...fewer and fewer Conservatives give a damned about the
Republican Party...hence the suprising rise in Tea Party
membership..which is comprised of members of ALL political parties..with
the likely exception of the Socialist/Communists/Fascists/Progressives.

Those people are the enemies of Tea Party members and anyone who holds a
Conservative view point. Shrug

And frankly..again....continuation of the current downhill slide of the
nation captained by the Leftwing and its syncophants simply will give
those sharply opposed to the Leftwing and its apparent efforts to
destroy the US, clear targets. Literally.

If you cant beat "them" in elections and in the court rooms..there are
no other options left to the People, but to simply kill off the enemy of
the Constituiton and the precepts the Founders left to us.

Given that the Leftwing has had 40-60 yrs to form its roots and
foundations..putting leftwing judges, teachers, administrators and
government workers in charge...its highly unlikely that the People can
vote them out, or fight against them in courts or in the statehouses and
Congress..so the idea that the only possible way to save the nation is
to simply kill them all and be done with it..is becoming more and more
attractive to the People.

And unless we see a sudden and sharp 180 change in our heading..mutiney
is on the close horizon. And the officers are going to walk the plank.

Works for me and when discussing this with others..its becoming clear
that the idea is becoming more and more popular..not just in a shake
ones head and mumble " we neetakillemall" curse..but in the actual
blinking of eyes..and a far away look, followed by a deep focusing on
the idea...generaly followed by a raised eyebrow as the implications and
plans start to form.

Shrug. I hope Im wrong....shrug..but as Ive
mentioned..."premonitions"/"visions"/clarvoiance have saved my life 5
times in the past...and this is another such. Shrug

Ive never had one that didnt eventually come true. Perhaps this one will
be simply fantasy/results of stroke/ etc etc.

The only way I can be sure..is if it never happens. But as Ive done in
each of the previous 5..Im going to prepare for it. If its a false
result of the stroke..so be it. If it happens....bad things will happen
to many many on the Leftwing..and many on the fringe kook part of the
Right. Marxists and Klanners being bulldozed into the same mass graves.
Though there are far more Leftwingers than Klanners, each are poison to
our nation.

One may make up ones mind to ignore it. Not my problem, or my concern.
I would on the other hand..hope those that I like and respect here on
this newsgroup survive through "it". Id like us to be able to sit back
and discuss the state of the nation as a new era comes about.

Gunner

--
"Confiscating wealth from those who have earned it, inherited it,
or got lucky is never going to help 'the poor.' Poverty isn't
caused by some people having more money than others, just as obesity
isn't caused by McDonald's serving super-sized orders of French fries
Poverty, like obesity, is caused by the life choices that dictate
results." - John Tucci,

On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 17:35:35 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 10 Nov 2010 01:22:56 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:


Gunner, you really need to quit smokin', right now, totally and
forever, set the example if you're surrounded by smokers, no excuses
or you don't have a hair on your ass worth saving.

Im in the middle of trying ...again.

Lets see what happens...again.

Gunner, you forgot. It's easy to quit. It's a decision which has to
be made, so make it and forget it. Piece of cake.

(Be sure to have plenty of sugarfree gum on hand for the oral
fixation.)

--
To the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.
-- J. K. Rowling

On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 18:39:55 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 17:35:35 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 10 Nov 2010 01:22:56 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:


Gunner, you really need to quit smokin', right now, totally and
forever, set the example if you're surrounded by smokers, no excuses
or you don't have a hair on your ass worth saving.

Im in the middle of trying ...again.

Lets see what happens...again.

Gunner, you forgot. It's easy to quit. It's a decision which has to
be made, so make it and forget it. Piece of cake.

(Be sure to have plenty of sugarfree gum on hand for the oral
fixation.)

I agree. Larry J has it nailed. The hard part is honestly deciding
to be done with the habit. You've done far more difficult things,
once determined to do them. Some can smoke and get away with it, die
of something else, but your cardiac history proves that you're not
among them. And, it's expensive. Smokes were 19 cents a pack when I
was in the Army, now they're 6 bux a pack here. That's almost a gun a
month.

I didn't chew gum, use patches or drugs. I just ****ing quit on 12 May
2008.

My young neighbors on both sides then quit before end of 2008, though
I truthfully told them I didn't mind if they smoked in my presence.

They say the occasional urge to light up goes away after 13 years or
so. G

On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 18:39:55 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 17:35:35 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 10 Nov 2010 01:22:56 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:


Gunner, you really need to quit smokin', right now, totally and
forever, set the example if you're surrounded by smokers, no excuses
or you don't have a hair on your ass worth saving.

Im in the middle of trying ...again.

Lets see what happens...again.

Gunner, you forgot. It's easy to quit. It's a decision which has to
be made, so make it and forget it. Piece of cake.

(Be sure to have plenty of sugarfree gum on hand for the oral
fixation.)

Odd that Ive quite humm 15 times before..with everything from gum to
patches...and was never able to last longer than 6 months

I must be a Victim and should be paid for life for my handicap.

Gunner

--
"Confiscating wealth from those who have earned it, inherited it,
or got lucky is never going to help 'the poor.' Poverty isn't
caused by some people having more money than others, just as obesity
isn't caused by McDonald's serving super-sized orders of French fries
Poverty, like obesity, is caused by the life choices that dictate
results." - John Tucci,

"Gunner Asch" wrote

Im in the middle of trying ...again.

Lets see what happens...again.

Gunner


You survived bypass surgery, and are still smoking? I ought to drive all
the way over there from Utah just to slap you on the side of your head!

But not to make it a waste, I'd probably do some shopping, too.

Quit, Gunner.

Steve

Heart surgery pending?
Read up and prepare.
Learn how to care for a friend.
http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

On 11/13/2010 5:36 PM, John R. Carroll wrote:
Ignoramus4438 wrote:
On 2010-11-11, wrote:
On Nov 11, 2:13?am, wrote:


So believe anything you want. I'm just saying after hearing this
guy for years I don't believe him, ever.

Hawke

What is the word for someone who has already made up their mind? Oh
yes, Prejudiced.

The only way to find out would be to ask historians of the 75th. They
could definitively answer whether Gunner could serve in RVN in
1971-1973 under any name.

I do not prejudice myself either way, I do not believe that he served
based on what I heard, but I do not dismiss the possibility of that,
either.

He couldn't have been in High School - as the public recorf make clear- and
the Army ( In Country/RVN ) at the same time.
It's that simple.

Despicable.



If you have the proof that Gummer was actually still in high school when
he claimed to be "in country" please do us all the favor of giving it to
us. Then once and for all we can put to rest the issue of whether his
stories are true or not. We can know for sure that he's a liar or not.
So give us the goods if you really have them. Please.

Hawke

On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 22:22:58 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote

Im in the middle of trying ...again.

Lets see what happens...again.

Gunner


You survived bypass surgery, and are still smoking? I ought to drive all
the way over there from Utah just to slap you on the side of your head!

But not to make it a waste, I'd probably do some shopping, too.

Quit, Gunner.

Steve

I about had it licked..and the ex and my son and his wife moved in 3
months after my surgery..3 months without a smoke.

They unfortunately..all smoke.

Whimper whimper..whine whine...

Gunner, bowing his head in shame.....
--
"Confiscating wealth from those who have earned it, inherited it,
or got lucky is never going to help 'the poor.' Poverty isn't
caused by some people having more money than others, just as obesity
isn't caused by McDonald's serving super-sized orders of French fries
Poverty, like obesity, is caused by the life choices that dictate
results." - John Tucci,

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 22:22:58 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote

Im in the middle of trying ...again.

Lets see what happens...again.

Gunner


You survived bypass surgery, and are still smoking? I ought to drive all
the way over there from Utah just to slap you on the side of your head!

But not to make it a waste, I'd probably do some shopping, too.

Quit, Gunner.

Steve

I about had it licked..and the ex and my son and his wife moved in 3
months after my surgery..3 months without a smoke.

They unfortunately..all smoke.

Whimper whimper..whine whine...

Gunner, bowing his head in shame.....


I have an allergy to cigarette smoke. The idiots at one lace I
worked not only ignored the 'No Smoking' signs, they thought it was
funny to blow that crap in my face. A couple cans of Lysol broke them
of that habit. Wait till they were ready to take a deep drag and spray
some where they would inhale it, and they were coughing as bad as I did
from their smoke.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

On Nov 14, 1:45*am, Hawke wrote:

.. Then once and for all we can put to rest the issue of whether his
stories are true or not. We can know for sure that he's a liar or not.

Hawke

Poor logic. This is not a riddle where there are truth tellers that
always tell the truth and liars that always lie. So based on one
thing one can not say that all Gunners stories are true or not. My
suspicion is that some are true, some are false, and some have
elements of both truth and false.

Dan

On 2010-11-14, Gunner Asch wrote:
Ayup..thats me. I did a few classes in late 74, after doing my little
walk about in Europe.

Since my entire family are Tech (By Heck!) grads..I thought Id give it a
try. Sister graduated from the Soo (mechanical engineer)..Mom
(aeronatical engineer) and Dad (civil engineer). graduated from Houghton

Shrug...didnt work for me. Which is a pity of course. Shrug

But then..if Id stayed as a deputy sheriff..Id have had 30 yrs in as
well.

Maybe Ill do better on the next spin around the cosmic wheel.

Why, that education was helpful, after all you are a CNC technician.

Did they give you any kind of degree?

i

"Gunner Asch" wrote

Facebook is interesting in some regards..you find out if the winners and
losers you thought of people as in school, really were what you thought.

Ive avoided it for years and a lady friend insisted I put Stuff up,
about 6 months ago, so with some reluctance..I did.

Shrug..no regrets but its not something I check very often either.

Gunner


Gunner

My personal opinion is that people who spend much time on facebook or
Googling other people's past really need to get a life, or at least a hobby.

Steve

On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 10:50:15 -0600, Ignoramus25291
wrote:



Easy peasy, here ya go:
http://www.classfinders.com/directory/mi/grayling/2/
You do know that Gunner is Mark Weiber, right?

Yes.

Entirely possible to graduate in May, enlist, do basic training and
AIT (advanced infantry training), even Ranger and Airborne schools,
and still be in-country in '71 just as the scurrilous, lyin',
still-smokin' reprobate claims in a current post.

Right, but that would not be "underage".

Then why did Gunner say that he enlisted underage, under a false name?

Am I mistaken?

i
Good question. Min age was 17 with parental consent, 18 without. I
was 17 when I graduated from HS, don't know about Gunner.

On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 08:56:44 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote

Facebook is interesting in some regards..you find out if the winners and
losers you thought of people as in school, really were what you thought.

Ive avoided it for years and a lady friend insisted I put Stuff up,
about 6 months ago, so with some reluctance..I did.

Shrug..no regrets but its not something I check very often either.

Gunner


Gunner

My personal opinion is that people who spend much time on facebook or
Googling other people's past really need to get a life, or at least a hobby.

Steve

For some, these *are* hobbies!

BTW, don't bother looking for me on Facebook. I'm not there.