"Ignoramus1553" wrote in message
...
On 2010-10-29, Dave H.
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote...

Proof that it's not just our gov't which has gotten _completely_ out
of control. Guns, electricity, knives, and now extinguishers? Man...

--

The ACPO (Association of Chief Police Officers) would like private
individuals to be banned from having machine tools, too - apparently we
"could make guns with them"...

Is that a joke?


I wish it were... Fortunately most people take the ACPO for what they appear
to be - a bunch of paranoid nutters with a total contempt for those they're
paid to serve and their rights and liberties

It stems from the UK's gun ban - although the legitimate shooters had to
give up their arms (with no compensation and, being registered, no option),
criminals didn't, and there appear to be a few thousand (or perhaps more,
nobody has counted) converted blank-firers, gas-powered pistols etc. in
their hands - the "logic" behind it is that if they can't stop the materials
coming into the UK there shouldn't be facilities to make the mods...? Since
the gun ban a cheap and nasty pistol has become a status symbol in some of
our less salubrious areas and gun crime (or at least reporting thereof) has
increased drastically.

Personally I like the Israeli model, where 2 guys can try to hold up a
restaurant and be subjected to what the local police called a "good shoot,
no over-penetration, no strays", as concealed carry is *encouraged*,
possibly because of their issues with "militant minorities" - didn't see the
ACPO advocating arming the public when we had the Irish troubles and
terrorism on our turf though? The usual "don't try to deal with it yourself,
Nanny Knows Best And Will Take Care Of You" we've had from all our
governments since 1945...

Damned if I know what we'll do when the Zombies erupt from their graves

Dave H.
--
(The engineer formerly known as Homeless)

"Rules are for the obedience of fools, and the guidance of wise men" -
Douglas Bader

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Jim Stewart wrote:


In most places in the US, local laws set the
specific requirements and usually compliance
with the National Electrical Code is one of them.

My first home was in a city that forbid anyone but
a non-licensed electrician from doing andy electrical
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Good catch. Of course I meant licensed electrician

work. Where I live now, a homeowner can do any
electrical work providing he can submit a building
permit request, get it approved, and pass an
inspection by the city building inspector.

I installed a 50 ampere subpanel along with lights
and 220 outlets for lathe, mill and welder and had
no problem with either the permit or the inspection.

About 25 years ago I designed several test fixtures
for the computer company I worked for and sent two
of them to our plant in Woking/Bracknell. I visited
the plant a few months later and was surprised at the
extensive plexi/perspex covers they installed over it.

On Fri, 29 Oct 2010 22:18:52 +0100, Dave H. wrote:
"Larry Jaques" wrote...

Proof that it's not just our gov't which has gotten _completely_ out
of control. Guns, electricity, knives, and now extinguishers? Man...

The ACPO (Association of Chief Police Officers) would like private
individuals to be banned from having machine tools, too - apparently we
"could make guns with them"...

I'd have thought you could make a Sten with hand tools, that's why they
called 'em the "plumber's gun"!

12" 1/4" iron pipe
A/R .22LR rimfire cartridge
1 ea. tack hammer. :-

Good Luck!
Rich
* A/R = As Required

On Sat, 30 Oct 2010 00:06:36 +0100, Dave H. wrote:

Damned if I know what we'll do when the Zombies erupt from their graves


Got chainsaws? ;-P

Cheers!
Rich

Jim Stewart wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Jim Stewart wrote:


In most places in the US, local laws set the
specific requirements and usually compliance
with the National Electrical Code is one of them.

My first home was in a city that forbid anyone but
a non-licensed electrician from doing andy electrical
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Good catch. Of course I meant licensed electrician


That's what I figured. I just wanted to make sure you had a chance
to correct it, before the hyenas piled on.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

Ignoramus1553 wrote:
On 2010-10-29, Jim wrote:
On Oct 29, 8:50?am,
wrote:
On 2010-10-29, Dave wrote:

?Is electrical work as tightly regulated in the US as it is here? We've had
new laws ("statutory instruments" that don't go before a vote in Parliament)
inflicted on us that pretty much outlaw DIY electrical work beyond replacing
an existing switch, light fitting, socket or piece of damaged cable etc.
(and not even that in the bathroom and kitchen!), the local council building
control office have to be informed and handed inspection certificates

You have quite insane gun control too, now people cannot own guns and
cannot install receptacles, pretty weird country I would say.

i

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/...in_starts.html


Most ridiculous.

i


They will probably ban water next.


John

John wrote:

They will probably ban water next.


Some parts of Europe has practiced for centuries, by refusing to use
water.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...


John wrote:

They will probably ban water next.


Some parts of Europe has practiced for centuries, by refusing to use
water.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

Zip guns.
http://www.associatepublisher.com/e/z/zi/zip_gun.htm

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...

In article
,
Jim Wilkins wrote:

On Oct 29, 8:50 am, Ignoramus1553
wrote:
On 2010-10-29, Dave H.
wrote:

Is electrical work as tightly regulated in the US as it is here?
We've
had
new laws ("statutory instruments" that don't go before a vote in
Parliament)
inflicted on us that pretty much outlaw DIY electrical work beyond
replacing
an existing switch, light fitting, socket or piece of damaged cable
etc.
(and not even that in the bathroom and kitchen!), the local council
building
control office have to be informed and handed inspection certificates

You have quite insane gun control too, now people cannot own guns and
cannot install receptacles, pretty weird country I would say.

i

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/...in_starts.html

Can the Brits on the group confirm that the UK is really outlawing fire
extinguishers?

Joe Gwinn


A little google
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3525380.ece

Seems to be true idiocy.

Bill & All,
Never connect safety ground and neutral anywhere but the building entry point. It is unsafe, against code everywhere and it
creates ground loops. Safety ground must be non-current carrying. If you find this practice corrects a fault, you have another
problem find that and stick to code.
Steve

"Califbill" wrote in message m...
"Ignoramus15569" wrote in message ...

Tim, I will reply to other fine points that you made when I gather
more data, but yes, we had a very long dry spell with a very minor
rain a couple of days ago.

I will check, very meticulously, whether I have a continuous ground,
first.

Ultimately, though, the question is, is that the motor that is
leaking, and if so, isn't that the primary issue?

i


Make sure that ground and neutral at the plug are the same. Years ago had a problem with a disk drive failing to spin up
properly, and they had left off the jumper at the pole between ground and neutral. Was 12 V between.

On Fri, 29 Oct 2010 23:25:09 -0400, John wrote:
Ignoramus1553 wrote:
On 2010-10-29, Jim wrote:
On Oct 29, 8:50?am,
On 2010-10-29, Dave wrote:

?Is electrical work as tightly regulated in the US as it is here? We've had
new laws ("statutory instruments" that don't go before a vote in Parliament)
inflicted on us that pretty much outlaw DIY electrical work beyond replacing
an existing switch, light fitting, socket or piece of damaged cable etc.
(and not even that in the bathroom and kitchen!), the local council building
control office have to be informed and handed inspection certificates

You have quite insane gun control too, now people cannot own guns and
cannot install receptacles, pretty weird country I would say.

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/...in_starts.html

Most ridiculous.

They will probably ban water next.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi3erdgVVTw
;-)

Cheers!
Rich

In article ,
"Califbill" wrote:

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...

In article
,
Jim Wilkins wrote:

On Oct 29, 8:50 am, Ignoramus1553
wrote:
On 2010-10-29, Dave H.
wrote:

Is electrical work as tightly regulated in the US as it is here?
We've
had
new laws ("statutory instruments" that don't go before a vote in
Parliament)
inflicted on us that pretty much outlaw DIY electrical work beyond
replacing
an existing switch, light fitting, socket or piece of damaged cable
etc.
(and not even that in the bathroom and kitchen!), the local council
building
control office have to be informed and handed inspection certificates

You have quite insane gun control too, now people cannot own guns and
cannot install receptacles, pretty weird country I would say.

i

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/...in_starts.html

Can the Brits on the group confirm that the UK is really outlawing fire
extinguishers?

Joe Gwinn


A little google
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3525380.ece

Seems to be true idiocy.

Yes, but despite the title the article does not say that extinguishers
are banned, only that the landlord is no longer required to provide
them, which is not the same thing as banning. This appears to be an
argument about money, not safety.

As I said, I'd like to hear from someone from the area to fill us in on
the politics.

Joe Gwinn

On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:54:21 -0700, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On 10/27/2010 08:29 PM, Ignoramus15569 wrote:
I have looked at everything very carefully and found a place where
ground was not connected properly. Thanks to all. This lathe runs
very well now, everything pertaining to variable speed works extremely
well, VFD is working, etc. It cost me more to fix than I hoped (VS
stuff), but the result is very nice. The last thing remaining is to
make stops for the taper attachment.

Glad you found it -- it's really unpleasant when the electrical stuff
starts biting.

Indeed. I believe I mentioned working on a misbehaving Large
machine..and after laying on the concrete floor in a pool of
sweat..reached up and grabbed the side of the machine to pull myself up.

And having the shop owner kick my arm loose as I was doing the Spastic
Trout On The Dock dance......

Gunner


I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

On Fri, 29 Oct 2010 16:43:49 -0500, Ignoramus1553
wrote:

On 2010-10-29, Dave H. wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote...

Proof that it's not just our gov't which has gotten _completely_ out
of control. Guns, electricity, knives, and now extinguishers? Man...

--

The ACPO (Association of Chief Police Officers) would like private
individuals to be banned from having machine tools, too - apparently we
"could make guns with them"...

Is that a joke?

No. Not at all. The ACPO is just another of the Crank Antigun groups.

I'd have thought you could make a Sten with hand tools, that's why they
called 'em the "plumber's gun"!

Dave H.


I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

Here in the U.S. we generally refer to similar devices as GFCI ground fault
circuit interrupter.
They are available in several versions for installing into walls to protect
branches of receptacles, and required most places for receptacles near sinks
(bath, kitchen, laundry, circuits near swimming pools) or receptacles near
exit doors where cords might be used for outdoor equipment, also permanent
outdoor locations (also available built into extension cords and power cords
of equipment primarily used outdoors - electric pressure washers, for
example).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device

There are also GFCI versions for installing directly into service panels
(mains power feed boxes).

One thing that's worse than excessive use of extension cords, is cheap
morons that never throw them away when the cords become damaged or develop
worn out receptacles.
In addition to that issue, too many folks don't have any understanding of
wattages or current.

I can tell you're a real maverick, Dave.. you used yards, instead of meters,
heh.

Yep, your regulators not accepting your certifications and experience for
not being adequate for fairly simple electrical work, reminds me of the sig
quote that's used by Wes (I think), about a guy's right to have a weapon to
protect important pople in his job.. but not able to keep a weapon in his
home to protect himself and his family.

Double standards have long been becoming the norm, twisted as that is.

Yep, there are essentially no safety devices that are 100% effective..
circuit breakers don't detect fires from hot conductors, etc.

Even isolation transformers can't protect someone from electrocution from
fatal voltage potentials within the piece of isolated equipment.

Folks were generally safer when they were very superstitious and afraid of
electrical power. Of course, they had to suffer lots of injuries from
wandering around in the house in the dark, and possibly oil lamp fires.
But they wouldn't risk getting killed instantly by the mysterious "fire on a
wire".

There were lots of rural folks in this country using gasoline-powered
washing machines (outdoors, I suppose) just a couple of generations ago.

--
WB
..........


"Dave H." wrote in message
...

"Wild_Bill" wrote...
Everyone doing any electrical work should know how little electrical
current it takes to disrupt normal heart rhythm.
This info is included in NEC manuals and numerous other sources.


Agreed, safety is important, I've gone a bit over the top for my
shed/workshop, 100mA time-delayed RCD ( = Residual Current Device, see
below) on the armoured cable from the house, another (30mA instantaneous)
for everything but the lights so I won't be left in the dark with spinning
machines, separate circuit breakers for each machine and the local
outlets, but a lot of people will be using 25 yards or more of trailing
extension cable across the garden and through puddles if they want to use
anything electrical beyond the confines of the house: this is perfectly
legal but bloody dangerous, rather than having a properly-wired fixed
installation which would be very much safer but which they currently
aren't permitted to install - anyone with an ounce of sense will find out
how to do it properly (there are plenty of resources online), anyone
without... well, maybe they should be shooed out of the gene pool before
they drown someone else

As for Iggy's ground fault - could be an existing fault and nothing to do
with him and his electrical work, lucky he found it now and not when a
*major* fault occured! I've seen quite a few horrors installed by
"approved electricians" and some really excellent jobs by DIYers - one
that comes to mind was aluminium cables terminated to brass connectors,
first sign of damp and they start to corrode, resistance goes up and it
overheats, up in smoke goes the junction box, possibly followed by the
house... That was a "professional" installation too

I have an electrical + electronic engineering cert. that took 3 years
post-college and several years practical experience on everything from
20KV transmitter supplies to 100HP servomotor systems but according to the
regulations here I'm not a "competent person" to work on electrics in my
own home, unlike a guy straight out of school (where he failed all his
courses) who's done a one-week course on testing *and has paid a huge
amount for membership* in one of the "approved bodies" who run the
certification scheme and lobbied (mostly in the newspapers) for the change
in the law. Makes you think, eh?

Part of the current regulations here that I approve of is
whole-installation 30mA RCD protection, so the power will disconnect in a
few milliseconds if there's any more than a 30mA current difference
between phase and neutral - but even that won't save those who put
themselves between phase and neutral without earthing themselves! Against
stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain...

Dave H.
--
(The engineer formerly known as Homeless)

"Rules are for the obedience of fools, and the guidance of wise men" -
Douglas Bader

On Sat, 30 Oct 2010 19:05:11 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:54:21 -0700, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On 10/27/2010 08:29 PM, Ignoramus15569 wrote:
I have looked at everything very carefully and found a place where
ground was not connected properly. Thanks to all. This lathe runs
very well now, everything pertaining to variable speed works extremely
well, VFD is working, etc. It cost me more to fix than I hoped (VS
stuff), but the result is very nice. The last thing remaining is to
make stops for the taper attachment.

Glad you found it -- it's really unpleasant when the electrical stuff
starts biting.

Indeed. I believe I mentioned working on a misbehaving Large
machine..and after laying on the concrete floor in a pool of
sweat..reached up and grabbed the side of the machine to pull myself up.

And having the shop owner kick my arm loose as I was doing the Spastic
Trout On The Dock dance......

That's NOT the approved Method of Faulty Ground Tracing as mentioned
in the Sparky manual, sir. But it found your problem for you, dinnit?
(ouch!)

--
Small opportunities are often the beginning of great enterprises.
-- Demosthenes

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 30 Oct 2010 19:05:11 -0700, Gunner
wrote:

On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:54:21 -0700, Tim
wrote:

On 10/27/2010 08:29 PM, Ignoramus15569 wrote:
I have looked at everything very carefully and found a place where
ground was not connected properly. Thanks to all. This lathe runs
very well now, everything pertaining to variable speed works extremely
well, VFD is working, etc. It cost me more to fix than I hoped (VS
stuff), but the result is very nice. The last thing remaining is to
make stops for the taper attachment.

Glad you found it -- it's really unpleasant when the electrical stuff
starts biting.

Indeed. I believe I mentioned working on a misbehaving Large
machine..and after laying on the concrete floor in a pool of
sweat..reached up and grabbed the side of the machine to pull myself up.

And having the shop owner kick my arm loose as I was doing the Spastic
Trout On The Dock dance......

That's NOT the approved Method of Faulty Ground Tracing as mentioned
in the Sparky manual, sir. But it found your problem for you, dinnit?
(ouch!)

--
Small opportunities are often the beginning of great enterprises.
-- Demosthenes



I guess you learned by experience that before working on any machine it
is prudent to check the grounding of the machine, but preferably not by
your method. I find a number of machines especially in small shops that
are not properly grounded. Some people should not do their own wiring,
especially three phase systems. Grounding is the most important part of
wiring, that is why the NEC devotes a whole chapter to it.

John

Wild_Bill wrote:
Here in the U.S. we generally refer to similar devices as GFCI ground
fault circuit interrupter.
They are available in several versions for installing into walls to
protect branches of receptacles, and required most places for
receptacles near sinks (bath, kitchen, laundry, circuits near swimming
pools) or receptacles near exit doors where cords might be used for
outdoor equipment, also permanent outdoor locations (also available
built into extension cords and power cords of equipment primarily used
outdoors - electric pressure washers, for example).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device

There are also GFCI versions for installing directly into service panels
(mains power feed boxes).

One thing that's worse than excessive use of extension cords, is cheap
morons that never throw them away when the cords become damaged or
develop worn out receptacles.
In addition to that issue, too many folks don't have any understanding
of wattages or current.

I can tell you're a real maverick, Dave.. you used yards, instead of
meters, heh.

Yep, your regulators not accepting your certifications and experience
for not being adequate for fairly simple electrical work, reminds me of
the sig quote that's used by Wes (I think), about a guy's right to have
a weapon to protect important pople in his job.. but not able to keep a
weapon in his home to protect himself and his family.

Double standards have long been becoming the norm, twisted as that is.

Yep, there are essentially no safety devices that are 100% effective..
circuit breakers don't detect fires from hot conductors, etc.

Even isolation transformers can't protect someone from electrocution
from fatal voltage potentials within the piece of isolated equipment.

Folks were generally safer when they were very superstitious and afraid
of electrical power. Of course, they had to suffer lots of injuries from
wandering around in the house in the dark, and possibly oil lamp fires.
But they wouldn't risk getting killed instantly by the mysterious "fire
on a wire".

There were lots of rural folks in this country using gasoline-powered
washing machines (outdoors, I suppose) just a couple of generations ago.



And the expression 'tit in the wringer' came from those old wringer type
washing machines, Ouch


John

John wrote:

I guess you learned by experience that before working on any machine it
is prudent to check the grounding of the machine, but preferably not by
your method. I find a number of machines especially in small shops that
are not properly grounded. Some people should not do their own wiring,
especially three phase systems. Grounding is the most important part of
wiring, that is why the NEC devotes a whole chapter to it.


You can't trust Electrical Contractors, either. I recently found a
208 V pipe bender that was reporting low voltage on the VFD drive.
Brand new install after a freind's company moved. The contractor had
wired the thing for 120 volts at one end, and 208 at the outlet. The
business assured me that it had to be wired right, but it wasn't. The
outlet had the right NEC color codes, but the ass had connected the red
conductor to neutral in the three phase breaker box. He had used a
single pole breaker, as well.


Then they wanted to wait a week before fixing their mess while the
company was waiting for parts to make shipments. After a heated
convesation, someone showed up an hour later but without the proper
breaker. That lead to another heated call, and the owner bring over the
proper breaker.

Another problem is a machine that was properly grounded, but the wire
has failed from vibration or some idiot hitting the conduit with a
forklift. This doesn't just happen to machine tools. I know of one
commercial fire alarm in a school that used the old 10A loop current
that had a wire short to a piece of conduit and people were getting
shocked with about 60 volts, DC. A connection in the conduit was
corroded, so it was no longer grounded, so it was a double fault
condition that could have killed someone. Cheap assed people think I'm
crazy to run a ground conductor inside of EMT.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

On Sun, 31 Oct 2010 11:20:49 -0400, John
wrote:

There were lots of rural folks in this country using gasoline-powered
washing machines (outdoors, I suppose) just a couple of generations ago.



And the expression 'tit in the wringer' came from those old wringer type
washing machines, Ouch


John
I remember my aunt having a gasoline powered washer with a length of
flexible exhaust hose out trough a hole in the kitchen wall. My grand
father used to threaten to get an exhaust hose for my Grandmother
every time she would have an "intestinal event".
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada