On Thu, 07 Oct 2010 11:03:40 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer
wrote:

Rich Grise writes:

On Mon, 04 Oct 2010 23:50:20 -0500, Don Foreman wrote:

Some dogs just aren't worth a **** from the gitgo. If they're just
stupid and basically untrainable but someone loves them then they get
kept, but a pet that harms or kills someone else's livestock or pets
is not acceptable. The options are to restrain it, retrain it, or
destroy it.

I've heard that it's not the dogs that need obedience school - it's
their human keepers.

A completely true statement: the class is about teaching you to train
your dog. You do the training every day between classes (my dog is
currently looking reproachfully at me, since she's gotten so little time
lately...).
Puppy completely failed obedience class, however, on the record of
attendance, at 4 months of age, she and all the other puppies got a
certificate, bag of cookies and pamphlet of other trick like shake a
paw. My reaction was "Lacey, shake a paw" and up came the right paw.
Brought the house down. Now, when in doubt, up comes the paw, but
don't grasp, just shake.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

On Thu, 07 Oct 2010 20:51:02 -0400, Gerald Miller
wrote:

On Thu, 07 Oct 2010 11:03:40 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer
wrote:

Rich Grise writes:

On Mon, 04 Oct 2010 23:50:20 -0500, Don Foreman wrote:

Some dogs just aren't worth a **** from the gitgo. If they're just
stupid and basically untrainable but someone loves them then they get
kept, but a pet that harms or kills someone else's livestock or pets
is not acceptable. The options are to restrain it, retrain it, or
destroy it.

I've heard that it's not the dogs that need obedience school - it's
their human keepers.

A completely true statement: the class is about teaching you to train
your dog. You do the training every day between classes (my dog is
currently looking reproachfully at me, since she's gotten so little time
lately...).
Puppy completely failed obedience class, however, on the record of
attendance, at 4 months of age, she and all the other puppies got a
certificate, bag of cookies and pamphlet of other trick like shake a
paw. My reaction was "Lacey, shake a paw" and up came the right paw.
Brought the house down. Now, when in doubt, up comes the paw, but
don't grasp, just shake.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

My youngest daughter is a natural. We had a couple of abysmally
stupid miniature dachshunds that the kids loved and I secretly
regarded as musky bait. There was a neighborhood "obedience contest"
where kids would bring their pets and show how they'd trained them.

Karen, about 5 at the time, done broke the code. She just watched the
dog to see what it'd do and then immediately commanded it to do it in
a surprisingly stentorian tone for such a tiny person.

When she sternly commanded "Ginger, PEE", the judges lost it. She got
a blue ribbon.

True story.

On Tue, 05 Oct 2010 00:25:33 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:
That said, Karl ain't about to kill a pet belonging to his neighbor
and friend without first exploring and exhausting diplomatic
solutions. I've visited Karl and Julie at their farm. Enjoyed some
killer-good rhubarb cake and coffee that Julie had made. They're nice
folks. There won't be any sirens or deppitys.


I envy you that, Don.

I suspect I'd be right at home.

Maybe from May thru October. May is apple blossom time at Karl's farm.

Had a job applicant/interview candidate arrive from Texas at MSP in
January years ago. I met him at the airport. Evening arrival, don't
recall what the temp was other than unremarkably well below zero. When
we went out the door to exit the terminal he gasped, involuntarily
uttered an expression of surprise that'd blister the paint off a
hockey rink, went back into the terminal and booked the next flight
outta here.

I shot a dog with a load of rock salt one time that was raiding the
chickens. I was surprised with the force it hit the dog. I was aiming at
its ass, and it swung his ass all the way sideways and smacked it on the
ground, but his front feet never left their position. Felt bad after I did
it, but the dog never ever came close to our property again. If you use
salt, go with something light like Kosher sized bits rather than the coarser
water softener sized crystals. It's probably going to be a short shot
anyway. Stock killing animals are not tolerated in the country, and most
people will shoot to kill if they know it's a dog that has killed before.
It is legal in our agricultural zoned area. Same with deer and coyotes, or
foxes. Once they get the taste of it, they will kill more than they can
possibly eat, probably for fun or instinct.

Steve

Heart surgery pending?
Read up and prepare.
Learn how to care for a friend.
http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 07 Oct 2010 20:51:02 -0400, Gerald Miller
wrote:

On Thu, 07 Oct 2010 11:03:40 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer
wrote:

Rich Grise writes:

On Mon, 04 Oct 2010 23:50:20 -0500, Don Foreman wrote:

Some dogs just aren't worth a **** from the gitgo. If they're just
stupid and basically untrainable but someone loves them then they get
kept, but a pet that harms or kills someone else's livestock or pets
is not acceptable. The options are to restrain it, retrain it, or
destroy it.

I've heard that it's not the dogs that need obedience school - it's
their human keepers.

A completely true statement: the class is about teaching you to train
your dog. You do the training every day between classes (my dog is
currently looking reproachfully at me, since she's gotten so little time
lately...).
Puppy completely failed obedience class, however, on the record of
attendance, at 4 months of age, she and all the other puppies got a
certificate, bag of cookies and pamphlet of other trick like shake a
paw. My reaction was "Lacey, shake a paw" and up came the right paw.
Brought the house down. Now, when in doubt, up comes the paw, but
don't grasp, just shake.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

My youngest daughter is a natural. We had a couple of abysmally
stupid miniature dachshunds that the kids loved and I secretly
regarded as musky bait. There was a neighborhood "obedience contest"
where kids would bring their pets and show how they'd trained them.

Karen, about 5 at the time, done broke the code. She just watched the
dog to see what it'd do and then immediately commanded it to do it in
a surprisingly stentorian tone for such a tiny person.

When she sternly commanded "Ginger, PEE", the judges lost it. She got
a blue ribbon.

True story.

It is easy to teach a dog to pee on command. Just go out with them, and at
the exact moment they squat and release, command, "Pee, or whatever." Some
trainers I have seen used the word whittle, and repeated it three times.
Has to come right at that moment of release, and with all dog training, lots
of practice and persistence. Then praise and a nice rub.

Steve

Steve B wrote:

I shot a dog with a load of rock salt one time that was raiding the
chickens. I was surprised with the force it hit the dog. I was aiming at
its ass, and it swung his ass all the way sideways and smacked it on the
ground, but his front feet never left their position. Felt bad after I did
it, but the dog never ever came close to our property again. If you use
salt, go with something light like Kosher sized bits rather than the coarser
water softener sized crystals.


Like the old joke about mixing Alum with rock salt so the wound
puckers over the salt? ;-)


It's probably going to be a short shot anyway. Stock killing animals are
not tolerated in the country, and most people will shoot to kill if they
know it's a dog that has killed before. It is legal in our agricultural
zoned area. Same with deer and coyotes, or foxes. Once they get the taste
of it, they will kill more than they can possibly eat, probably for fun or
instinct.

--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

Don Foreman wrote:

On Tue, 05 Oct 2010 00:25:33 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:
That said, Karl ain't about to kill a pet belonging to his neighbor
and friend without first exploring and exhausting diplomatic
solutions. I've visited Karl and Julie at their farm. Enjoyed some
killer-good rhubarb cake and coffee that Julie had made. They're nice
folks. There won't be any sirens or deppitys.


I envy you that, Don.

I suspect I'd be right at home.

Maybe from May thru October. May is apple blossom time at Karl's farm.

Had a job applicant/interview candidate arrive from Texas at MSP in
January years ago. I met him at the airport. Evening arrival, don't
recall what the temp was other than unremarkably well below zero. When
we went out the door to exit the terminal he gasped, involuntarily
uttered an expression of surprise that'd blister the paint off a
hockey rink, went back into the terminal and booked the next flight
outta here.


Then he would have really hated Fairbanks, AK.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

On Fri, 08 Oct 2010 00:40:53 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:



My youngest daughter is a natural. We had a couple of abysmally
stupid miniature dachshunds that the kids loved and I secretly
regarded as musky bait. There was a neighborhood "obedience contest"
where kids would bring their pets and show how they'd trained them.

Karen, about 5 at the time, done broke the code. She just watched the
dog to see what it'd do and then immediately commanded it to do it in
a surprisingly stentorian tone for such a tiny person.

When she sternly commanded "Ginger, PEE", the judges lost it. She got
a blue ribbon.

True story.
I put the leash on and let her out the back door with the command
"Lacey, go find a puddle" and she does, right beside her left foot.
Yes, she does lift her right back foot! She also "humps" her teddy
bear.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

On Fri, 08 Oct 2010 04:38:04 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Don Foreman wrote:

On Tue, 05 Oct 2010 00:25:33 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:
That said, Karl ain't about to kill a pet belonging to his neighbor
and friend without first exploring and exhausting diplomatic
solutions. I've visited Karl and Julie at their farm. Enjoyed some
killer-good rhubarb cake and coffee that Julie had made. They're nice
folks. There won't be any sirens or deppitys.


I envy you that, Don.

I suspect I'd be right at home.

Maybe from May thru October. May is apple blossom time at Karl's farm.

Had a job applicant/interview candidate arrive from Texas at MSP in
January years ago. I met him at the airport. Evening arrival, don't
recall what the temp was other than unremarkably well below zero. When
we went out the door to exit the terminal he gasped, involuntarily
uttered an expression of surprise that'd blister the paint off a
hockey rink, went back into the terminal and booked the next flight
outta here.


Then he would have really hated Fairbanks, AK.

I had the opposite issues on several occasions...Left Michigan in
Febuary, arrived in RVN about 72 hrs later.... and a couple years
later..left Michigan in January...in 48 hours stepped off the plane in
Dammam, Saudi Arabia.......gack!!!




I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

On Mon, 04 Oct 2010 23:50:20 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sun, 03 Oct 2010 10:57:02 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

Or you can buy/rent/borrow a good STRONG shock collar and watch him
coming..the moment he hits the yard..push the button and hold it down
while he goes into spasms and apparent convulsions. Hold that button
down for more than 30 seconds!! Have his owner shout NO!!! repeatedly
while doing it..then let up and let the owner continue to shout NO!!
until the dog recovers and runs home.

It may..may take 3-4 such treatments before its burned into his brain
that coming over to your place hurts and is a Bad Thing (tm)

I strongly doubt that the owner would go along with this. I sure as
hell wouldn't.

Dogs respond much better to the carrot than to the stick though some
stick is sometimes necessary. Some breeds are nearly oblivious to
pain, labs being a notable example, but if shown stick and reward in
quick succession they figure that out quickly enough.

Example: say "come" softly, pull on leash. Praise upon arrival.
Repeat. After some of that, take off leash. Say "come" softly. If
dog responds, praise lavishly. The first time he does not respond,
replace leash, say "come" softly and damned near yank his head off --
then praise lavishly upon arrival.

Training a dog by shouting is foolish. Dogs hear just fine, and
quickly learn to ignore all but shouted commands when shouting is the
demonstrated form of emphasis.

Excessive use of pain as a motivator can ruin what might otherwise
have been a good dog. When they get surly and sneaky, they're ruined
and may as well be put down sooner than later.

Some dogs just aren't worth a **** from the gitgo. If they're just
stupid and basically untrainable but someone loves them then they get
kept, but a pet that harms or kills someone else's livestock or pets
is not acceptable. The options are to restrain it, retrain it, or
destroy it.


Shrug..its worked in the several instances Ive had dog problems with
outsiders dogs and an adoptee or 3

I did mention that I do animal rescue and currently have 10 dogs...5 in
the house pack..and 5 adoptees...right?

Chain link and kennels for the adoptees, training for the other 5.

None are vicious, but a pack can be a handful.

Gunner


I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Fri, 08 Oct 2010 04:38:04 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Don Foreman wrote:

On Tue, 05 Oct 2010 00:25:33 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:
That said, Karl ain't about to kill a pet belonging to his neighbor
and friend without first exploring and exhausting diplomatic
solutions. I've visited Karl and Julie at their farm. Enjoyed some
killer-good rhubarb cake and coffee that Julie had made. They're nice
folks. There won't be any sirens or deppitys.


I envy you that, Don.

I suspect I'd be right at home.

Maybe from May thru October. May is apple blossom time at Karl's farm.

Had a job applicant/interview candidate arrive from Texas at MSP in
January years ago. I met him at the airport. Evening arrival, don't
recall what the temp was other than unremarkably well below zero. When
we went out the door to exit the terminal he gasped, involuntarily
uttered an expression of surprise that'd blister the paint off a
hockey rink, went back into the terminal and booked the next flight
outta here.


Then he would have really hated Fairbanks, AK.

I had the opposite issues on several occasions...Left Michigan in
Febuary, arrived in RVN about 72 hrs later.... and a couple years
later..left Michigan in January...in 48 hours stepped off the plane in
Dammam, Saudi Arabia.......gack!!!


It was in the 80's when I arrived and again when I left a year later,
but in between it dropped to below -40F for a good part of the winter
along with the 0% humidity. It took me a couple years to get used to
the high heat & humidity near Cincinnati when i got home.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

Gunner Asch on Sat, 09 Oct 2010 12:28:13 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


Shrug..its worked in the several instances Ive had dog problems with
outsiders dogs and an adoptee or 3

I did mention that I do animal rescue and currently have 10 dogs...5 in
the house pack..and 5 adoptees...right?

Chain link and kennels for the adoptees, training for the other 5.

None are vicious, but a pack can be a handful.
Oh yeah.

Like adolescent boys ... individually they might be fine, but in a
group, they get all excited, and "it seemed like a good idea at the
time!"


yoicks

pyotr


--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Sat, 09 Oct 2010 12:28:13 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Oct 2010 23:50:20 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sun, 03 Oct 2010 10:57:02 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

Or you can buy/rent/borrow a good STRONG shock collar and watch him
coming..the moment he hits the yard..push the button and hold it down
while he goes into spasms and apparent convulsions. Hold that button
down for more than 30 seconds!! Have his owner shout NO!!! repeatedly
while doing it..then let up and let the owner continue to shout NO!!
until the dog recovers and runs home.

It may..may take 3-4 such treatments before its burned into his brain
that coming over to your place hurts and is a Bad Thing (tm)

I strongly doubt that the owner would go along with this. I sure as
hell wouldn't.

Dogs respond much better to the carrot than to the stick though some
stick is sometimes necessary. Some breeds are nearly oblivious to
pain, labs being a notable example, but if shown stick and reward in
quick succession they figure that out quickly enough.

Example: say "come" softly, pull on leash. Praise upon arrival.
Repeat. After some of that, take off leash. Say "come" softly. If
dog responds, praise lavishly. The first time he does not respond,
replace leash, say "come" softly and damned near yank his head off --
then praise lavishly upon arrival.

Training a dog by shouting is foolish. Dogs hear just fine, and
quickly learn to ignore all but shouted commands when shouting is the
demonstrated form of emphasis.

Excessive use of pain as a motivator can ruin what might otherwise
have been a good dog. When they get surly and sneaky, they're ruined
and may as well be put down sooner than later.

Some dogs just aren't worth a **** from the gitgo. If they're just
stupid and basically untrainable but someone loves them then they get
kept, but a pet that harms or kills someone else's livestock or pets
is not acceptable. The options are to restrain it, retrain it, or
destroy it.


Shrug..its worked in the several instances Ive had dog problems with
outsiders dogs and an adoptee or 3

I did mention that I do animal rescue and currently have 10 dogs...5 in
the house pack..and 5 adoptees...right?

Chain link and kennels for the adoptees, training for the other 5.

None are vicious, but a pack can be a handful.

I did say that some stick is sometimes necessary. Depends a lot on the
individual dog. Maggie the boxer next door that we dogsat now and
then would probably have had a nervous breakdown if ever yelled at.
She had the sweetest disposition I've ever seen in a dog. When
walking on a leash, she'd keep looking back to see if she was doing
OK. Only reason for the leash was that she was so fiercely protective
of "her humans" if another dog was encountered.

Charlie, the shepherd/black lab mongrel, my companion for 18 years,
didn't think I was serious until I crossed her eyes, then she'd go
"Oh, ****, that hurt for a second there, you talkin' to me? Can we
have an icecream cone now?" Charlie had a mind of her own and loved
to game me, but she never ever forgot the basic manners that I
required of her as a 3/4 grown stray when she decided to live at my
house one day. Everyone in that neighborhood knew Charlie (by various
names) so there was no reason to restrain her until I moved elsewhere.
But she did NOT get to beg or snatch food from my small children on
Dad's weekends. Nothing less than perfect discipline was acceptable.
She "got it" very quickly indeed. She would accept no treat, however
tempting or proffered, until hearing the word "OK".

How might a dog game me? One of her tricks was to sneakily disappear
when we moved to a different 'hood where she wasn't known and needed
to stay home. She'd zoom around the house and sneak up behind me,
enjoying my discomfiture that she'd disappeared when in fact she was
right behind me. Ha ha, foodju, wag wag. Goddamned impudent dog!

In a pack situation, you do have to definitely assert your role as the
alpha male immediately and maintain that as necessary. That said, I
still hold that praise, love and rewards work far better than pain and
punishment for dogs that are worth bothering with -- and why bother
with a dog that isn't worth bothering with?