On Sat, 09 Oct 2010 12:28:13 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Oct 2010 23:50:20 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sun, 03 Oct 2010 10:57:02 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

Or you can buy/rent/borrow a good STRONG shock collar and watch him
coming..the moment he hits the yard..push the button and hold it down
while he goes into spasms and apparent convulsions. Hold that button
down for more than 30 seconds!! Have his owner shout NO!!! repeatedly
while doing it..then let up and let the owner continue to shout NO!!
until the dog recovers and runs home.

It may..may take 3-4 such treatments before its burned into his brain
that coming over to your place hurts and is a Bad Thing (tm)

I strongly doubt that the owner would go along with this. I sure as
hell wouldn't.

Dogs respond much better to the carrot than to the stick though some
stick is sometimes necessary. Some breeds are nearly oblivious to
pain, labs being a notable example, but if shown stick and reward in
quick succession they figure that out quickly enough.

Example: say "come" softly, pull on leash. Praise upon arrival.
Repeat. After some of that, take off leash. Say "come" softly. If
dog responds, praise lavishly. The first time he does not respond,
replace leash, say "come" softly and damned near yank his head off --
then praise lavishly upon arrival.

Training a dog by shouting is foolish. Dogs hear just fine, and
quickly learn to ignore all but shouted commands when shouting is the
demonstrated form of emphasis.

Excessive use of pain as a motivator can ruin what might otherwise
have been a good dog. When they get surly and sneaky, they're ruined
and may as well be put down sooner than later.

Some dogs just aren't worth a **** from the gitgo. If they're just
stupid and basically untrainable but someone loves them then they get
kept, but a pet that harms or kills someone else's livestock or pets
is not acceptable. The options are to restrain it, retrain it, or
destroy it.


Shrug..its worked in the several instances Ive had dog problems with
outsiders dogs and an adoptee or 3

I did mention that I do animal rescue and currently have 10 dogs...5 in
the house pack..and 5 adoptees...right?

Chain link and kennels for the adoptees, training for the other 5.

None are vicious, but a pack can be a handful.

I did say that some stick is sometimes necessary. Depends a lot on the
individual dog. Maggie the boxer next door that we dogsat now and
then would probably have had a nervous breakdown if ever yelled at.
She had the sweetest disposition I've ever seen in a dog. When
walking on a leash, she'd keep looking back to see if she was doing
OK. Only reason for the leash was that she was so fiercely protective
of "her humans" if another dog was encountered.

Charlie, the shepherd/black lab mongrel, my companion for 18 years,
didn't think I was serious until I crossed her eyes, then she'd go
"Oh, ****, that hurt for a second there, you talkin' to me? Can we
have an icecream cone now?" Charlie had a mind of her own and loved
to game me, but she never ever forgot the basic manners that I
required of her as a 3/4 grown stray when she decided to live at my
house one day. Everyone in that neighborhood knew Charlie (by various
names) so there was no reason to restrain her until I moved elsewhere.
But she did NOT get to beg or snatch food from my small children on
Dad's weekends. Nothing less than perfect discipline was acceptable.
She "got it" very quickly indeed. She would accept no treat, however
tempting or proffered, until hearing the word "OK".

How might a dog game me? One of her tricks was to sneakily disappear
when we moved to a different 'hood where she wasn't known and needed
to stay home. She'd zoom around the house and sneak up behind me,
enjoying my discomfiture that she'd disappeared when in fact she was
right behind me. Ha ha, foodju, wag wag. Goddamned impudent dog!

In a pack situation, you do have to definitely assert your role as the
alpha male immediately and maintain that as necessary. That said, I
still hold that praise, love and rewards work far better than pain and
punishment for dogs that are worth bothering with -- and why bother
with a dog that isn't worth bothering with?