so the metal is my car's engine - a horizontally opposed 6, that has some
air passages (supplementary air injection) that are clogged by carbon, which
causes the check engine light to come on - this is an emissions control only
issue, but it's annoying. There are two known procedures for fixing, one
involves removing the heads and cleaning them - this is VERY expensive, and
not all that sensible for a properly running engine. The other procedure
involves flushing some kind of magic compound through the passages using air
pressure and a lot of prayers. I've used this procedure with success, but
each time the interval between failure gets shorter because of course some
of the build up remains - I've made (there's metal content) special adapters
so I can put 160 PSI air where the low pressure blower air normally goes to
help pop out the blockage - this "kind of" works - but what would really
help is some magic goop that would attack the carbon, not eat the aluminum
heads, and not cause engine damage if some managed to work its way inside
the cylinders

So, any ideas? (I've used spray carb cleaner and fuel injector cleaner,
the former works a lot better than the latter) - I've tried wire probes
(access is quite limited), a micro rotor-rooter type thing I made from a
speedo cable, and other mechanical means - none worked worth a darn.

so, there is no politics, and it has a modest relationship to real metal
working, and someone may have an idea to help....

--
Bill
www.wbnoble.com

On Sep 15, 10:18*pm, "Bill Noble" wrote:
so the metal is my car's engine - a horizontally opposed 6, that has some
air passages (supplementary air injection) that are clogged by carbon, which
causes the check engine light to come on - this is an emissions control only
issue, but it's annoying. *There are two known procedures for fixing, one
involves removing the heads and cleaning them - this is VERY expensive, and
not all that sensible for a properly running engine. *The other procedure
involves flushing some kind of magic compound through the passages using air
pressure and a lot of prayers. *I've used this procedure with success, but
each time the interval between failure gets shorter because of course some
of the build up remains - I've made (there's metal content) special adapters
so I can put 160 PSI air where the low pressure blower air normally goes to
help pop out the blockage - this "kind of" works - but what would really
help is some magic goop that would attack the carbon, not eat the aluminum
heads, and not cause engine damage if some managed to work its way inside
the cylinders

So, any ideas? * (I've used spray carb cleaner and fuel injector cleaner,
the former works a lot better than the latter) - I've tried wire probes
(access is quite limited), a micro rotor-rooter type thing I made from a
speedo cable, and other mechanical means - none worked worth a darn.

so, there is no politics, and it has a modest relationship to real metal
working, and someone may have an idea to help....

--
Billwww.wbnoble.com

Rifle-cleaning brushes on the end of a flexible cleaning rod is about
the only other thing I can think of, saw something similar for
cleaning oil passages on one of the big 3's V8s in an overhaul book
one time, so they're out there. Combine that with the carb cleaner of
choice. If the other end of the passage is open or can be made so,
maybe a shot of ground walnut hulls or corncob with some air can clean
the carbon out. At a guess, a Porsche?

Stan

Bill Noble wrote:
so the metal is my car's engine - a horizontally opposed 6, that has
some air passages (supplementary air injection) that are clogged by
carbon, which causes the check engine light to come on - this is an
emissions control only issue, but it's annoying. There are two known
procedures for fixing, one involves removing the heads and cleaning them
- this is VERY expensive, and not all that sensible for a properly
running engine. The other procedure involves flushing some kind of
magic compound through the passages using air pressure and a lot of
prayers. I've used this procedure with success, but each time the
interval between failure gets shorter because of course some of the
build up remains - I've made (there's metal content) special adapters so
I can put 160 PSI air where the low pressure blower air normally goes to
help pop out the blockage - this "kind of" works - but what would really
help is some magic goop that would attack the carbon, not eat the
aluminum heads, and not cause engine damage if some managed to work its
way inside the cylinders

So, any ideas? (I've used spray carb cleaner and fuel injector
cleaner, the former works a lot better than the latter) - I've tried
wire probes (access is quite limited), a micro rotor-rooter type thing I
made from a speedo cable, and other mechanical means - none worked worth
a darn.

GM Top cylinder cleaner OR Sea Foam. Both work well for this.

Move vehicle OUTSIDE!!!

Start engine let it warm up.
Pull off a vacuum line ABOVE the areas you want to de-carbon.
VERY IMPORTANT STEP.

Now with the engine idling allow the engine to draw 1/2 - 3/4 of the can
of cleaner into the hose. When it gets to that point invert the can and
stall out the engine with the cleaner (it won't lock up, just quit
because of the mix). Now let it set for 1/2 - 1 hour. When you start it
back up you will get a HUGE cloud of smoke with a LOT of carbon in it.
Make sure your exhaust isn't pointed towards anything you want to keep
clean. Run it a bit until the smoke clears up, then change out the
oil/filter, you may want to do this again after a couple days. There
will be a LOT of carbon and crud flushed into the oil.



--
Steve W.

wrote in message
...
On Sep 15, 10:18 pm, "Bill Noble" wrote:

snip

So, any ideas? (I've used spray carb cleaner and fuel injector cleaner,
the former works a lot better than the latter) - I've tried wire probes
(access is quite limited), a micro rotor-rooter type thing I made from a
speedo cable, and other mechanical means - none worked worth a darn.

so, there is no politics, and it has a modest relationship to real metal
working, and someone may have an idea to help....

--
Billwww.wbnoble.com

Rifle-cleaning brushes on the end of a flexible cleaning rod is about
the only other thing I can think of, saw something similar for
cleaning oil passages on one of the big 3's V8s in an overhaul book
one time, so they're out there. Combine that with the carb cleaner of
choice. If the other end of the passage is open or can be made so,
maybe a shot of ground walnut hulls or corncob with some air can clean
the carbon out. At a guess, a Porsche?

Stan

----------------------

yep, good guess. Last of the air cooled ones. Sadly, the mechanical
approach won't work unless I remove the engine - there just isn't access -
if I pull the manifold, I can see the ports above the exhaust valves, and
I've tried mechanical means of working on the ports - but they make a couple
of turns pretty quickly after then enter the head so that doesn't work.
Trying to go the other way is worse - the bank of cylinders that has the
more severe problem is the one farther from the pump (obviously), and to get
to it involves running the rod through about 3 feet of cross over tubing,
then a 90 degree bend, and there is no access to disconnect the tubing. I
guess this is what happens when you put a 500KW power plant in an engine
compartment that originally held a 45 HP VW engine.... it's like working on
a fighter - everything is squirreled away behind something else. You even
have to pull the mufflers to change the spark plugs....

I would love to try blasting the carbon out, but I can't figure out a way to
blast effectively into a 1/8 inch hole that is directly behind a valve stem
(thus no straight line access).

"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Bill Noble wrote:
so the metal is my car's engine - a horizontally opposed 6, that has
some air passages (supplementary air injection) that are clogged by
carbon,

snip

So, any ideas? (I've used spray carb cleaner and fuel injector
cleaner, the former works a lot better than the latter) - I've tried
wire probes (access is quite limited), a micro rotor-rooter type thing I
made from a speedo cable, and other mechanical means - none worked worth
a darn.

GM Top cylinder cleaner OR Sea Foam. Both work well for this.

Move vehicle OUTSIDE!!!

Start engine let it warm up.
Pull off a vacuum line ABOVE the areas you want to de-carbon.
VERY IMPORTANT STEP.

Now with the engine idling allow the engine to draw 1/2 - 3/4 of the can
of cleaner into the hose. When it gets to that point invert the can and
stall out the engine with the cleaner (it won't lock up, just quit
because of the mix). Now let it set for 1/2 - 1 hour. When you start it
back up you will get a HUGE cloud of smoke with a LOT of carbon in it.
Make sure your exhaust isn't pointed towards anything you want to keep
clean. Run it a bit until the smoke clears up, then change out the
oil/filter, you may want to do this again after a couple days. There
will be a LOT of carbon and crud flushed into the oil.



--
Steve W.

ok, so top cleaner or sea foam - right..... how do these things go about
doing their job? I ask because the carbon in question is not inside the
combustion chamber - so putting the goop into the intake will do nothing -
the car runs perfectly. The problem is some passages wtihin the head that
connect to little tiny ports above each exhaust valve. The ports are in the
manifold section, not in the cylinder internals, so they are not under
engine pressure.

This site here http://www.systemsc.com/pictures.htm has a good description
of the problem, though I don't agree with the guess at the cause. My car in
particular does not burn inappropriate amounts of oil and it has 130K
miles - the problem first appeard well after 100K, so my theory is that if
I can get a goodly fraction of this carbon out, I should be good for another
100K miles or so before it comes back

I have made block off covers, so I can block off all but one exit and
pressurize the system - this will sometimes pop out whatever is blocking the
one port, but some times not. I could pour lots of sea foam into the air
passage where the pump blows in air and hope for the best, and I can keep it
there by plugging up the little exit ports that go into the head.

snip---------

.. Run it a bit until the smoke clears up, then change out the
oil/filter, you may want to do this again after a couple days. There
will be a LOT of carbon and crud flushed into the oil.



--
Steve W.

just one more thought - 12 quarts of mobile 1 at $6 per quart, plus two oil
filters at about $15 each, plus removing inner fender and sill plate and
several hoses to change filters and get at both drain plugs = I don't want
to do it "again" after a few days - which is another reason to keep the
magic goop out of the engine internals and just let it work on the
carburized passages.

....
GM Top cylinder cleaner OR Sea Foam. Both work well for this.

Move vehicle OUTSIDE!!!

Start engine let it warm up.
Pull off a vacuum line ABOVE the areas you want to de-carbon.
VERY IMPORTANT STEP.

Now with the engine idling allow the engine to draw 1/2 - 3/4 of the can
of cleaner into the hose. When it gets to that point invert the can and
stall out the engine with the cleaner (it won't lock up, just quit
because of the mix). Now let it set for 1/2 - 1 hour. When you start it
back up you will get a HUGE cloud of smoke with a LOT of carbon in it.
Make sure your exhaust isn't pointed towards anything you want to keep
clean. Run it a bit until the smoke clears up, then change out the
oil/filter, you may want to do this again after a couple days. There
will be a LOT of carbon and crud flushed into the oil.



--
Steve W.

ok, so top cleaner or sea foam - right..... how do these things go about
doing their job? I ask because the carbon in question is not inside the
combustion chamber - so putting the goop into the intake will do nothing -
....

I can vouch for the sea foam trick. My neighbor is a mechanic. He "tunes up"
a lot of old cars this way. I use it once/year on my old 8N tractor. When
your engine is hot, sea foam really dissolves carbon.

Karl

If the passages are blocked, chemicals will only soak in if the passages ere
tilted to let gravity work, and may be too hard for that.
I have made a "roto rooter thingy" by brazing the business end of a drill
bit shortened to 3/8 length to a piece of speedo cable, for an EGR passage
on a japanese car. If the carbon isn't harder than the aluminum it may work,
but if it ends at the valve stem, you really don't want to scar it, although
brazing the bit will anneal it so that's unlikely.

--
Stupendous Man,
Defender of Freedom, Advocate of Liberty

Bill Noble wrote:
so the metal is my car's engine - a horizontally opposed 6, that has
some air passages (supplementary air injection) that are clogged by
carbon, which causes the check engine light to come on - this is an
emissions control only issue, but it's annoying. There are two known
procedures for fixing, one involves removing the heads and cleaning them
- this is VERY expensive, and not all that sensible for a properly
running engine. The other procedure involves flushing some kind of
magic compound through the passages using air pressure and a lot of
prayers. I've used this procedure with success, but each time the
interval between failure gets shorter because of course some of the
build up remains - I've made (there's metal content) special adapters so
I can put 160 PSI air where the low pressure blower air normally goes to
help pop out the blockage - this "kind of" works - but what would really
help is some magic goop that would attack the carbon, not eat the
aluminum heads, and not cause engine damage if some managed to work its
way inside the cylinders

So, any ideas? (I've used spray carb cleaner and fuel injector
cleaner, the former works a lot better than the latter) - I've tried
wire probes (access is quite limited), a micro rotor-rooter type thing I
made from a speedo cable, and other mechanical means - none worked worth
a darn.

so, there is no politics, and it has a modest relationship to real metal
working, and someone may have an idea to help....


I would add to all the suggestions for Sea foam etc: If you car has a
catalytic converter, whatever you pour through the engine exits through
the converter, and can clog it.

One thing I would probably do if it were mine, is add a water injection
system at the intake. Nothing like steam for removing deposits, and it
will not hurt the motor, and would probably help it. Of course water
injection is added to reduce detonation and thereby improve power. A
side benefit is it cleans combustion chambers and passages like nothing
else.

Holley used to make a nice kit. I still happen to have one, much to my
recent surprise. There are probably newer and better ones out there by now.

Bill Noble wrote:

"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Bill Noble wrote:
so the metal is my car's engine - a horizontally opposed 6, that has
some air passages (supplementary air injection) that are clogged by
carbon,

snip

So, any ideas? (I've used spray carb cleaner and fuel injector
cleaner, the former works a lot better than the latter) - I've tried
wire probes (access is quite limited), a micro rotor-rooter type thing I
made from a speedo cable, and other mechanical means - none worked worth
a darn.

GM Top cylinder cleaner OR Sea Foam. Both work well for this.

Move vehicle OUTSIDE!!!

Start engine let it warm up.
Pull off a vacuum line ABOVE the areas you want to de-carbon.
VERY IMPORTANT STEP.

Now with the engine idling allow the engine to draw 1/2 - 3/4 of the can
of cleaner into the hose. When it gets to that point invert the can and
stall out the engine with the cleaner (it won't lock up, just quit
because of the mix). Now let it set for 1/2 - 1 hour. When you start it
back up you will get a HUGE cloud of smoke with a LOT of carbon in it.
Make sure your exhaust isn't pointed towards anything you want to keep
clean. Run it a bit until the smoke clears up, then change out the
oil/filter, you may want to do this again after a couple days. There
will be a LOT of carbon and crud flushed into the oil.



--
Steve W.

ok, so top cleaner or sea foam - right..... how do these things go about
doing their job? I ask because the carbon in question is not inside the
combustion chamber - so putting the goop into the intake will do nothing
- the car runs perfectly. The problem is some passages wtihin the head
that connect to little tiny ports above each exhaust valve. The ports
are in the manifold section, not in the cylinder internals, so they are
not under engine pressure.

This site here http://www.systemsc.com/pictures.htm has a good
description of the problem, though I don't agree with the guess at the
cause. My car in particular does not burn inappropriate amounts of oil
and it has 130K miles - the problem first appeard well after 100K, so
my theory is that if I can get a goodly fraction of this carbon out, I
should be good for another 100K miles or so before it comes back

I have made block off covers, so I can block off all but one exit and
pressurize the system - this will sometimes pop out whatever is blocking
the one port, but some times not. I could pour lots of sea foam into
the air passage where the pump blows in air and hope for the best, and I
can keep it there by plugging up the little exit ports that go into the
head.

If the passages get hot enough to cause carbon it will work. The
question will be getting the cleaner into the passages. In this case you
could heat up the car, then spray the cleaner into the air injection
intake.
It works by breaking the bonds in the carbon chemically. the trick will
be getting it into the passages.
IF you could get some 1/8" stiff tubing you could shove it into the
passages and spray through that.

--
Steve W.

Bill Noble wrote:

snip---------

. Run it a bit until the smoke clears up, then change out the
oil/filter, you may want to do this again after a couple days. There
will be a LOT of carbon and crud flushed into the oil.



--
Steve W.

just one more thought - 12 quarts of mobile 1 at $6 per quart, plus two
oil filters at about $15 each, plus removing inner fender and sill plate
and several hoses to change filters and get at both drain plugs = I
don't want to do it "again" after a few days - which is another reason
to keep the magic goop out of the engine internals and just let it work
on the carburized passages.

You don't have to use mobile 1 for the flush oil. Use the cheap stuff
and then change to the mobile 1.


--
Steve W.

"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Bill Noble wrote:

snip---------

. Run it a bit until the smoke clears up, then change out the
oil/filter, you may want to do this again after a couple days. There
will be a LOT of carbon and crud flushed into the oil.



--
Steve W.

just one more thought - 12 quarts of mobile 1 at $6 per quart, plus two
oil filters at about $15 each, plus removing inner fender and sill plate
and several hoses to change filters and get at both drain plugs = I
don't want to do it "again" after a few days - which is another reason
to keep the magic goop out of the engine internals and just let it work
on the carburized passages.

You don't have to use mobile 1 for the flush oil. Use the cheap stuff
and then change to the mobile 1.


--
Steve W.

so maybe this weekend I'll try the sea foam approach - I've never used that
stuff - I can pull the SAI valve and plug the little ports - this requires
removing the mufflers and manifolds (about 90 minutes work - not too bad) -
of course you can't really run the engine without the manifold (neighbors
wouldn't be all that sympathetic to an unmuffled flat 6) but maybe letting
it sit for a few hours will help - I'll blow out what I can first.

I'm also thinking that maybe I can collect the stuff as it drains through
whatever ports are open and with a small pump recycle it through the system
for a few hours (or overnight) - that ought to at least get some parts of
the passages pretty clean. I have a couple of stainless pans from a long
closed factory/lab that are about right for this application -

I'm all in favor of clean engines and pollution control, but this particular
"trick" that puts a whole system on a car for the first few seconds of
running is a bit suspect - I wonder why they couldn't blow the air into the
manifolds rather than into the head - then it would be possible to actually
get at the hoses and clean it out - the European variant doesn't have this
little do-hickey, just the USA version (and presumably Canada and Mexico) -

Any other thoughts? these are good ideas, I appreciate it.

I would add to all the suggestions for Sea foam etc: If you car has a
catalytic converter, whatever you pour through the engine exits through
the converter, and can clog it.

yes, that is one reason why I pull the exhaust manifolds off before
attempting to clean these passages.


One thing I would probably do if it were mine, is add a water injection
system at the intake. Nothing like steam for removing deposits, and it
will not hurt the motor, and would probably help it. Of course water
injection is added to reduce detonation and thereby improve power. A side
benefit is it cleans combustion chambers and passages like nothing else.

Holley used to make a nice kit. I still happen to have one, much to my
recent surprise. There are probably newer and better ones out there by
now.

I don't think it would matter one iota - remember, these passages are NOT in
the intake or exhaust circuit, they are just a separate set of "twisty
little passages, all alike" that carry air into the exhaust when the engine
is first started. I think all that putting water into the intake air would
do is to cause corrosion in the magnesium alloy intake manifold and seize up
the vari-ram that adjusts the mainfold tuning as a function of engine
RPM --- and that would be a "really bad thing".

On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 00:55:44 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Bill Noble wrote:
so the metal is my car's engine - a horizontally opposed 6, that has
some air passages (supplementary air injection) that are clogged by
carbon, which causes the check engine light to come on - this is an
emissions control only issue, but it's annoying. There are two known
procedures for fixing, one involves removing the heads and cleaning them
- this is VERY expensive, and not all that sensible for a properly
running engine. The other procedure involves flushing some kind of
magic compound through the passages using air pressure and a lot of
prayers. I've used this procedure with success, but each time the
interval between failure gets shorter because of course some of the
build up remains - I've made (there's metal content) special adapters so
I can put 160 PSI air where the low pressure blower air normally goes to
help pop out the blockage - this "kind of" works - but what would really
help is some magic goop that would attack the carbon, not eat the
aluminum heads, and not cause engine damage if some managed to work its
way inside the cylinders

So, any ideas? (I've used spray carb cleaner and fuel injector
cleaner, the former works a lot better than the latter) - I've tried
wire probes (access is quite limited), a micro rotor-rooter type thing I
made from a speedo cable, and other mechanical means - none worked worth
a darn.

GM Top cylinder cleaner OR Sea Foam. Both work well for this.

Move vehicle OUTSIDE!!!

Start engine let it warm up.
Pull off a vacuum line ABOVE the areas you want to de-carbon.
VERY IMPORTANT STEP.

Now with the engine idling allow the engine to draw 1/2 - 3/4 of the can
of cleaner into the hose. When it gets to that point invert the can and
stall out the engine with the cleaner (it won't lock up, just quit
because of the mix). Now let it set for 1/2 - 1 hour. When you start it
back up you will get a HUGE cloud of smoke with a LOT of carbon in it.
Make sure your exhaust isn't pointed towards anything you want to keep
clean. Run it a bit until the smoke clears up, then change out the
oil/filter, you may want to do this again after a couple days. There
will be a LOT of carbon and crud flushed into the oil.
Wont work for the EGR passages ( I imagine that's what you are
working on, on a Soob?)

On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 22:11:00 -0700, "Bill Noble"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Sep 15, 10:18 pm, "Bill Noble" wrote:

snip

So, any ideas? (I've used spray carb cleaner and fuel injector cleaner,
the former works a lot better than the latter) - I've tried wire probes
(access is quite limited), a micro rotor-rooter type thing I made from a
speedo cable, and other mechanical means - none worked worth a darn.

so, there is no politics, and it has a modest relationship to real metal
working, and someone may have an idea to help....

--
Billwww.wbnoble.com

Rifle-cleaning brushes on the end of a flexible cleaning rod is about
the only other thing I can think of, saw something similar for
cleaning oil passages on one of the big 3's V8s in an overhaul book
one time, so they're out there. Combine that with the carb cleaner of
choice. If the other end of the passage is open or can be made so,
maybe a shot of ground walnut hulls or corncob with some air can clean
the carbon out. At a guess, a Porsche?

Stan

----------------------

yep, good guess. Last of the air cooled ones. Sadly, the mechanical
approach won't work unless I remove the engine - there just isn't access -
if I pull the manifold, I can see the ports above the exhaust valves, and
I've tried mechanical means of working on the ports - but they make a couple
of turns pretty quickly after then enter the head so that doesn't work.
Trying to go the other way is worse - the bank of cylinders that has the
more severe problem is the one farther from the pump (obviously), and to get
to it involves running the rod through about 3 feet of cross over tubing,
then a 90 degree bend, and there is no access to disconnect the tubing. I
guess this is what happens when you put a 500KW power plant in an engine
compartment that originally held a 45 HP VW engine.... it's like working on
a fighter - everything is squirreled away behind something else. You even
have to pull the mufflers to change the spark plugs....

I would love to try blasting the carbon out, but I can't figure out a way to
blast effectively into a 1/8 inch hole that is directly behind a valve stem
(thus no straight line access).


So is the carbon in the ports, or in other passages? If you are
getting excessive carbon in the ports you are either running too rich
or burning oil???

On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 22:21:49 -0700, "Bill Noble"
wrote:


"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Bill Noble wrote:
so the metal is my car's engine - a horizontally opposed 6, that has
some air passages (supplementary air injection) that are clogged by
carbon,

snip

So, any ideas? (I've used spray carb cleaner and fuel injector
cleaner, the former works a lot better than the latter) - I've tried
wire probes (access is quite limited), a micro rotor-rooter type thing I
made from a speedo cable, and other mechanical means - none worked worth
a darn.

GM Top cylinder cleaner OR Sea Foam. Both work well for this.

Move vehicle OUTSIDE!!!

Start engine let it warm up.
Pull off a vacuum line ABOVE the areas you want to de-carbon.
VERY IMPORTANT STEP.

Now with the engine idling allow the engine to draw 1/2 - 3/4 of the can
of cleaner into the hose. When it gets to that point invert the can and
stall out the engine with the cleaner (it won't lock up, just quit
because of the mix). Now let it set for 1/2 - 1 hour. When you start it
back up you will get a HUGE cloud of smoke with a LOT of carbon in it.
Make sure your exhaust isn't pointed towards anything you want to keep
clean. Run it a bit until the smoke clears up, then change out the
oil/filter, you may want to do this again after a couple days. There
will be a LOT of carbon and crud flushed into the oil.



--
Steve W.

ok, so top cleaner or sea foam - right..... how do these things go about
doing their job? I ask because the carbon in question is not inside the
combustion chamber - so putting the goop into the intake will do nothing -
the car runs perfectly. The problem is some passages wtihin the head that
connect to little tiny ports above each exhaust valve. The ports are in the
manifold section, not in the cylinder internals, so they are not under
engine pressure.

This site here http://www.systemsc.com/pictures.htm has a good description
of the problem, though I don't agree with the guess at the cause. My car in
particular does not burn inappropriate amounts of oil and it has 130K
miles - the problem first appeard well after 100K, so my theory is that if
I can get a goodly fraction of this carbon out, I should be good for another
100K miles or so before it comes back

I have made block off covers, so I can block off all but one exit and
pressurize the system - this will sometimes pop out whatever is blocking the
one port, but some times not. I could pour lots of sea foam into the air
passage where the pump blows in air and hope for the best, and I can keep it
there by plugging up the little exit ports that go into the head.


OK, so it is the Air Injection Reactor (or as GM called it,
Thermactor) system. Sounds like you have a reversion problem as
exhaust SHOULD not get into these passages. When the air is shut off
(on decell/over-run to prevent backfire) the exhaust is getting back
into the A.I.R. manifold. You most likely have a leaky/defective Anti
Reversion valve in the system. Not unheard of at 100,000.

On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 06:43:32 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

...
GM Top cylinder cleaner OR Sea Foam. Both work well for this.

Move vehicle OUTSIDE!!!

Start engine let it warm up.
Pull off a vacuum line ABOVE the areas you want to de-carbon.
VERY IMPORTANT STEP.

Now with the engine idling allow the engine to draw 1/2 - 3/4 of the can
of cleaner into the hose. When it gets to that point invert the can and
stall out the engine with the cleaner (it won't lock up, just quit
because of the mix). Now let it set for 1/2 - 1 hour. When you start it
back up you will get a HUGE cloud of smoke with a LOT of carbon in it.
Make sure your exhaust isn't pointed towards anything you want to keep
clean. Run it a bit until the smoke clears up, then change out the
oil/filter, you may want to do this again after a couple days. There
will be a LOT of carbon and crud flushed into the oil.



--
Steve W.

ok, so top cleaner or sea foam - right..... how do these things go about
doing their job? I ask because the carbon in question is not inside the
combustion chamber - so putting the goop into the intake will do nothing -
...

I can vouch for the sea foam trick. My neighbor is a mechanic. He "tunes up"
a lot of old cars this way. I use it once/year on my old 8N tractor. When
your engine is hot, sea foam really dissolves carbon.

Karl



Won't get to the A.I.R system if that IS what he is talking about.
Carbon is pretty hard to get rid of. It is virtually insoluable in any
solvent. Oxidizing agents will slowly get rid of it. Things like
chlorine bleach or caustic soda (oven cleaner) - but caustic is out of
the running when you talk about aluminum.
Caustic is what was used in machine shop "hot tanks" to clean engine
blocks and heads when they were made of cast iron and steel.

On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 09:26:12 -0500, RBnDFW
wrote:

Bill Noble wrote:
so the metal is my car's engine - a horizontally opposed 6, that has
some air passages (supplementary air injection) that are clogged by
carbon, which causes the check engine light to come on - this is an
emissions control only issue, but it's annoying. There are two known
procedures for fixing, one involves removing the heads and cleaning them
- this is VERY expensive, and not all that sensible for a properly
running engine. The other procedure involves flushing some kind of
magic compound through the passages using air pressure and a lot of
prayers. I've used this procedure with success, but each time the
interval between failure gets shorter because of course some of the
build up remains - I've made (there's metal content) special adapters so
I can put 160 PSI air where the low pressure blower air normally goes to
help pop out the blockage - this "kind of" works - but what would really
help is some magic goop that would attack the carbon, not eat the
aluminum heads, and not cause engine damage if some managed to work its
way inside the cylinders

So, any ideas? (I've used spray carb cleaner and fuel injector
cleaner, the former works a lot better than the latter) - I've tried
wire probes (access is quite limited), a micro rotor-rooter type thing I
made from a speedo cable, and other mechanical means - none worked worth
a darn.

so, there is no politics, and it has a modest relationship to real metal
working, and someone may have an idea to help....


I would add to all the suggestions for Sea foam etc: If you car has a
catalytic converter, whatever you pour through the engine exits through
the converter, and can clog it.

One thing I would probably do if it were mine, is add a water injection
system at the intake. Nothing like steam for removing deposits, and it
will not hurt the motor, and would probably help it. Of course water
injection is added to reduce detonation and thereby improve power. A
side benefit is it cleans combustion chambers and passages like nothing
else.

Holley used to make a nice kit. I still happen to have one, much to my
recent surprise. There are probably newer and better ones out there by now.


Again, absolutely useless for the passages he's got problems with.

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 09:26:12 -0500, RBnDFW
wrote:

Bill Noble wrote:
so the metal is my car's engine - a horizontally opposed 6, that has
some air passages (supplementary air injection) that are clogged by
carbon, which causes the check engine light to come on - this is an
emissions control only issue, but it's annoying.

snip

One thing I would probably do if it were mine, is add a water injection
system at the intake. Nothing like steam for removing deposits, and it
will not hurt the motor, and would probably help it. Of course water
injection is added to reduce detonation and thereby improve power. A
side benefit is it cleans combustion chambers and passages like nothing
else.

Holley used to make a nice kit. I still happen to have one, much to my
recent surprise. There are probably newer and better ones out there by
now.


Again, absolutely useless for the passages he's got problems with.

you are absolutely right - but there's gotta be a way, sort of dismanteling
the engine - I wonder what would happen if I used 3000 PSI air from a scuba
tank - .....(thinking)..... nope, that probably would not be all that clever
either.....

Bill Noble wrote:


I would add to all the suggestions for Sea foam etc: If you car has a
catalytic converter, whatever you pour through the engine exits
through the converter, and can clog it.

yes, that is one reason why I pull the exhaust manifolds off before
attempting to clean these passages.


One thing I would probably do if it were mine, is add a water
injection system at the intake. Nothing like steam for removing
deposits, and it will not hurt the motor, and would probably help it.
Of course water injection is added to reduce detonation and thereby
improve power. A side benefit is it cleans combustion chambers and
passages like nothing else.

Holley used to make a nice kit. I still happen to have one, much to my
recent surprise. There are probably newer and better ones out there by
now.

I don't think it would matter one iota - remember, these passages are
NOT in the intake or exhaust circuit, they are just a separate set of
"twisty little passages, all alike" that carry air into the exhaust when
the engine is first started.

But the carbon is from the exhaust outflow backing up into those
passages, correct?

I think all that putting water into the
intake air would do is to cause corrosion in the magnesium alloy intake
manifold and seize up the vari-ram that adjusts the mainfold tuning as a
function of engine RPM --- and that would be a "really bad thing".

You are probably right. But you can use other fluids if you thought it
would get to the right place. Acetone has been used, for example.

Can you inject something (Sea Foam?) similarly into the access holes you
are working through, while the engine runs? Or add a feed line to the
air pump intake, rather than the engine manifold?.

On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 22:28:14 -0700, "Bill Noble"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 09:26:12 -0500, RBnDFW
wrote:

Bill Noble wrote:
so the metal is my car's engine - a horizontally opposed 6, that has
some air passages (supplementary air injection) that are clogged by
carbon, which causes the check engine light to come on - this is an
emissions control only issue, but it's annoying.

snip

One thing I would probably do if it were mine, is add a water injection
system at the intake. Nothing like steam for removing deposits, and it
will not hurt the motor, and would probably help it. Of course water
injection is added to reduce detonation and thereby improve power. A
side benefit is it cleans combustion chambers and passages like nothing
else.

Holley used to make a nice kit. I still happen to have one, much to my
recent surprise. There are probably newer and better ones out there by
now.


Again, absolutely useless for the passages he's got problems with.

you are absolutely right - but there's gotta be a way, sort of dismanteling
the engine - I wonder what would happen if I used 3000 PSI air from a scuba
tank - .....(thinking)..... nope, that probably would not be all that clever
either.....
Pure oxygen lance.

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 22:28:14 -0700, "Bill Noble"
wrote:


wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 09:26:12 -0500, RBnDFW
wrote:

Bill Noble wrote:
so the metal is my car's engine - a horizontally opposed 6, that has
some air passages (supplementary air injection) that are clogged by
carbon, which causes the check engine light to come on - this is an
emissions control only issue, but it's annoying.

snip

Again, absolutely useless for the passages he's got problems with.

you are absolutely right - but there's gotta be a way, sort of
dismanteling
the engine - I wonder what would happen if I used 3000 PSI air from a
scuba
tank - .....(thinking)..... nope, that probably would not be all that
clever
either.....
Pure oxygen lance.

ok, I can do that easily enough - I have an oxyacetelyne torch - but pure O2
won't do anything unless I get the carbon hot, and I don't see a way to do
that - I can't run the engine and then take the manifolds off before it
cools down - maybe I should just bite the bullet and pull the heads - a
solid weekend's work and a few hundred $$ for gaskets - I just hate to do
it....

"RBnDFW" wrote in message
...
Bill Noble wrote:


I would add to all the suggestions for Sea foam etc: If you car has a
catalytic converter, whatever you pour through the engine exits through
the converter, and can clog it.

yes, that is one reason why I pull the exhaust manifolds off before
attempting to clean these passages.


snip


I think all that putting water into the
intake air would do is to cause corrosion in the magnesium alloy intake
manifold and seize up the vari-ram that adjusts the mainfold tuning as a
function of engine RPM --- and that would be a "really bad thing".

You are probably right. But you can use other fluids if you thought it
would get to the right place. Acetone has been used, for example.

Can you inject something (Sea Foam?) similarly into the access holes you
are working through, while the engine runs? Or add a feed line to the air
pump intake, rather than the engine manifold?.

I can certainly run a feed line to where the pump blows air - that's where
in the past I've hooked up my 160 PSI shop air - but I can't pour stuff
through while the engine runs because it will blow the stuff into the
catalytic converter, and you really don't want to know what a coverter for
one of these babies costs.....

does anyone know if sea foam or equivalent will do anything when the engine
is not hot? I can probably rig up some way to circulate it, or to make it
stagnate in the passages for a while so it can work its magic...

Bill Noble wrote:

"RBnDFW" wrote in message
...
Bill Noble wrote:


I would add to all the suggestions for Sea foam etc: If you car has
a catalytic converter, whatever you pour through the engine exits
through the converter, and can clog it.

yes, that is one reason why I pull the exhaust manifolds off before
attempting to clean these passages.


snip


I think all that putting water into the
intake air would do is to cause corrosion in the magnesium alloy
intake manifold and seize up the vari-ram that adjusts the mainfold
tuning as a function of engine RPM --- and that would be a "really
bad thing".

You are probably right. But you can use other fluids if you thought it
would get to the right place. Acetone has been used, for example.

Can you inject something (Sea Foam?) similarly into the access holes
you are working through, while the engine runs? Or add a feed line to
the air pump intake, rather than the engine manifold?.

I can certainly run a feed line to where the pump blows air - that's
where in the past I've hooked up my 160 PSI shop air - but I can't pour
stuff through while the engine runs because it will blow the stuff into
the catalytic converter, and you really don't want to know what a
coverter for one of these babies costs.....

does anyone know if sea foam or equivalent will do anything when the
engine is not hot? I can probably rig up some way to circulate it, or
to make it stagnate in the passages for a while so it can work its magic...

I've used it on cold engines. It works but not as well as on a warm
engine. However I don't see a reason why you couldn't warm the cleaner
and maybe line up a heat lamp on the head to warm it up?
The main reason for the warm/running engine is to get the cleaner into
the areas that need to be cleaned.

As for the converters, never had a problem with any of the ones I have
done. They all blow the residue out and into the system. 99% blows right
through and any particles that do get stuck usually burn out once the
unit lights off.

--
Steve W.