I am a beginner

I have the Sieg X2. The Cummins version. I want to make the Z-axis
as square to the table as possible and I don't know how. I want to
drill very straight holes.

I see that the head can be adjusted side by side. By loosing the big
nut in back. How do I make sure this is as straight as possible? I
have used a square and eyeballed it. How would I use a test indicator
or Dial indicator to make it more accurate?

Is it possible to adjust the squareness of the head front and back?
Is there adjustments for this?

How square front and back do the Sieg X2 mills come out of the box?
How would they compare to a quality drill press?

I have collets for the bits I need to use. But how accurate is the
standard chuck that comes with the mill?

Thanks so much for any help!

My technical college textbook had a great section on all this. Complete with
pictures, "Machine Tool Practices". Get yourself a copy and you'll have
answers for 1000 other questions, too.

Very quickly you need to get an indicator that clamps to the drill chuck.
You swing it around and check until every angle of drill rotation has the
same reading

Karl

On Mar 10, 3:26*pm, wrote:
I am a beginner

I have the Sieg X2. *The Cummins version. *I want to make the Z-axis
as square to the table as possible and I don't know how. *I want to
drill very straight holes.

I see that the head can be adjusted side by side. *By loosing the big
nut in back. *How do I make sure this is as straight as possible? *I
have used a square and eyeballed it. *How would I use a test indicator
or Dial indicator to make it more accurate?
...
How square front and back do the Sieg X2 mills come out of the box?
How would they compare to a quality drill press?

Don't know, you'll soon find out.

I have collets for the bits I need to use. *But how accurate is the
standard chuck that comes with the mill?

When you tram the mill, chuck runout doesn't matter.

Unplug the mill so you don't accidently damage the Space Station with
the indicator.
Disconnect the drive if it's easy. You want the chuck to turn easily
by hand.
Center the table under the spindle, by eye is good enough.

Get a piece of steel rod that the indicator will clamp onto and bend
it L shaped. A 6" piece bent somewhere near the middle is fine,
nothing critical here, length or angle. The thicker the better, within
reason. 1/4" steel welding rod or CRS from the hardware store should
be fine.

Chuck one end of the bent rod, attach the indicator near the outer end
of the horizontal leg, point down.

I like to use a parallel here, to keep the indicator point out of the
table slots. Lower the head until the point contacts the table or top
of the parallel. Swing the rod to the other side and see if it touches
there yet.

Make crude adjustments to get the reading on the dial on both sides,
then zero it on the lower reading side (indicator point further out,
column tilted away), swing it to the higher reading side, figure half
the difference and tap the column toward the low side until the
indicator is close to the half reading. Recheck the zero side, see if
it's close to half. Repeat until satisfied or bored.

Tightening the bolts on my mill changes the adjustment slightly but
predictably.

Before checking front-rear tilt, snug up the gibs. You may find that
it's only square at one setting, such as tightly clamped to the
column.

I used a mill-drill that was off by ~0.009" in 5" and never noticed
any effect on the work. While checking spindle squareness I also
looked at runout in the table motion. On that particular RF-31 moving
the table didn't change the indicator by 0.001 but the slots weren't
quite parallel to the X axis. The front edge of the table was, so I
used it to set large pieces parallel.

Jim Wilkins

wrote:
I am a beginner

I have the Sieg X2. The Cummins version. I want to make the Z-axis
as square to the table as possible and I don't know how. I want to
drill very straight holes.

I see that the head can be adjusted side by side. By loosing the big
nut in back. How do I make sure this is as straight as possible? I
have used a square and eyeballed it. How would I use a test indicator
or Dial indicator to make it more accurate?

Is it possible to adjust the squareness of the head front and back?
Is there adjustments for this?

How square front and back do the Sieg X2 mills come out of the box?
How would they compare to a quality drill press?

I have collets for the bits I need to use. But how accurate is the
standard chuck that comes with the mill?

Thanks so much for any help!

I see that you posted the identical question on the GrizHFminimill group
(although the e-mail is different).

There are several instructions on tramming in the file section of the same
group.

There is a long thread of a few months back specifically discussing
front-to-back tramming; my impression is that it is difficult and not always
successful. If you do a search on the group it might pop up. Mine tilts back
about 0.008" in 3". I have done nothing about it for fear that I will make
things worse.

For tramming along the X axis I have used the method described he

http://littlemachineshop.com/Info/Mi...UsersGuide.pdf

If you are a beginner and have no access to someone who will teach you, the
DVD series sold by LMS is excellent. Tramming is covered in Vol. 5. I bought
mine rather than renting it and have not regretted it. I keep going back to
review stuff.

Finally, you will not go wrong if you read and follow Jim's instructions.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

On 2009-03-10, wrote:
I am a beginner

I have the Sieg X2. The Cummins version. I want to make the Z-axis
as square to the table as possible and I don't know how. I want to
drill very straight holes.

Bear in mind that a drill *won't* drill very straight holes.
The hole tends to wander as the hole gets deeper.

A reamer following an undersized hole can do better.

Best is boring -- which means a boring head in the spindle of
the mill if you don't have a lathe to do it on. And this is more of a
problem with smaller holes -- finding a boring bar which will work in
the rough hole which you drilled is more difficult, and the drill bit
will wander more during the rough drilling.

I see that the head can be adjusted side by side. By loosing the big
nut in back. How do I make sure this is as straight as possible? I
have used a square and eyeballed it. How would I use a test indicator
or Dial indicator to make it more accurate?

A test indicator mounted on something held in the spindle so the
indicator is several inches from the centerline of the spindle, Swing
the indicator to the left and to the right and compare the readings.
Adjust until both readings are as close to the same as you can manage.

Is it possible to adjust the squareness of the head front and back?
Is there adjustments for this?

Not a designed in one on the Sieg as far as I know (I don't have
one, so I can't be sure), but you could loosen the bolts holding it to
the base casting, and add shim stock (available in various thicknesses)
until your front to back measurements with the same setup described
above for measuring the side to side error is to a minimum difference.

How square front and back do the Sieg X2 mills come out of the box?

No idea. Measure to find out using the above technique.

How would they compare to a quality drill press?

They *should* be better than a typical home drill press, but
probably no better than a radial arm industrial drill press for serious
work. (But the odds of having the power needed to run one of those are
pretty slim in a home shop -- or the space to mount one -- or the
ceiling height. :-)

I have collets for the bits I need to use. But how accurate is the
standard chuck that comes with the mill?

Probably pretty poor. Measure the runout close to the chuck and
at some distance from the chuck with a hardened drill blank or other
test rod.

A good drill chuck (such as an Albrecht or the ball bearing
Jacobs keyless which is a semi-clone of the Albrecht) on a *good* arbor
can be quite good.

And I hope that you know to *not* try using the chuck for
holding milling cutters? They don't grip well on the hardened shanks of
the milling cutters.

There are Albrecht drill chucks available on R8 spindles (and
some others as well) which have diamond impregnated jaws for gripping
hardened shanks -- but you may be getting up to a serious percentage of
the price of your machine for one of those. :-)

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

How would they compare to a quality drill press?

They *should* be better than a typical home drill press, but
probably no better than a radial arm industrial drill press for serious
work. (But the odds of having the power needed to run one of those are
pretty slim in a home shop -- or the space to mount one -- or the
ceiling height. :-)

I've got a radial arm drill press in my garage. It does use as much floor
space as a milling machine. Its set up to be moved outside for drilling on
things like backhoes, loaders, etc. If you've used one of these you can't go
back. Everything else seems like a joke.

Karl

On Mar 10, 9:19*pm, "Michael Koblic" wrote:
...
http://littlemachineshop.com/Info/Mi...UsersGuide.pdf
...
Michael Koblic,

Thanks for the reference. It's very clear and concise, the way I'd
like to write.

Karl Townsend wrote:
How would they compare to a quality drill press?
They *should* be better than a typical home drill press, but
probably no better than a radial arm industrial drill press for serious
work. (But the odds of having the power needed to run one of those are
pretty slim in a home shop -- or the space to mount one -- or the
ceiling height. :-)

I've got a radial arm drill press in my garage. It does use as much floor
space as a milling machine. Its set up to be moved outside for drilling on
things like backhoes, loaders, etc. If you've used one of these you can't go
back. Everything else seems like a joke.

Karl

wrote:
I am a beginner

I have the Sieg X2. The Cummins version. I want to make the Z-axis
as square to the table as possible and I don't know how. I want to
drill very straight holes.

I see that the head can be adjusted side by side. By loosing the big
nut in back. How do I make sure this is as straight as possible? I
have used a square and eyeballed it. How would I use a test indicator
or Dial indicator to make it more accurate?

Is it possible to adjust the squareness of the head front and back?
Is there adjustments for this?

How square front and back do the Sieg X2 mills come out of the box?
How would they compare to a quality drill press?

Almost any milling machine is stiffer than a typical drill press.
A true industrial drill press is another matter.

I have collets for the bits I need to use. But how accurate is the
standard chuck that comes with the mill?

Not very accurate. You will do good to get under .003 runout from the
stock chuck.
You don't say what you are drilling, but a good quality drill in a
same-size collet, with minimum drill protrusion, is a pretty accurate
setup for relatively shallow holes.

Michael Koblic wrote:
There is a long thread of a few months back specifically discussing
front-to-back tramming; my impression is that it is difficult and not
always successful. If you do a search on the group it might pop up.
Mine tilts back about 0.008" in 3". I have done nothing about it for
fear that I will make things worse.

Michael , I have been following your progress as a machinist on this and
other groups ... If your mill is tilted back .008 in three inches , you
nreed to space the BACK side of the column in proportiion to the indicated
error . IE , if the BOLT spacing is also 3" , the ratio is 1:1 ... and if
the bolt spacing is 6" , double the thicknes of shims ...
--
Snag
any errores in my reply may be blamed on excessive
consumptioonof aLCOHOL ...

On Mar 13, 9:35*pm, "Terry Coombs" wrote:
Michael Koblic wrote:
...
Mine tilts back about 0.008" in 3". I have done nothing about it for
fear that I will make things worse.

You could remove the column and measure the connecting surfaces to see
which one is off. An indicator mounted in the chuck ought to read a
constant value against the column while you extend the quill.

To measure squareness of the base attachment surface, attach a fixed
horizontal rod near the lower 1x2 edge of a 1-2-3 block and an
indicator near the upper edge, parallel with the rod. The block needs
to sit flat on either 1x2" end, perhaps raised on a parallel.

If you pushed the block up against a square inside corner so both the
rod and the indicator make contact and zero the indicator, then flip
the block over, the indicator will still read zero.

Do that to a corner which isn't quite square and the indicator will
show (+) the error one way, (-) the error the other, or twice the
total.

You don't have to use a 1-2-3 block, all that's necessary is that the
top and bottom are parallel. You could machine a block and check
parallelism with the indicator.

Jim Wilkins

On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 06:03:38 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

On Mar 13, 9:35*pm, "Terry Coombs" wrote:
Michael Koblic wrote:
...
Mine tilts back about 0.008" in 3". I have done nothing about it for
fear that I will make things worse.

You could remove the column and measure the connecting surfaces to see
which one is off. An indicator mounted in the chuck ought to read a
constant value against the column while you extend the quill.

To measure squareness of the base attachment surface, attach a fixed
horizontal rod near the lower 1x2 edge of a 1-2-3 block and an
indicator near the upper edge, parallel with the rod. The block needs
to sit flat on either 1x2" end, perhaps raised on a parallel.

If you pushed the block up against a square inside corner so both the
rod and the indicator make contact and zero the indicator, then flip
the block over, the indicator will still read zero.

Do that to a corner which isn't quite square and the indicator will
show (+) the error one way, (-) the error the other, or twice the
total.

You don't have to use a 1-2-3 block, all that's necessary is that the
top and bottom are parallel. You could machine a block and check
parallelism with the indicator.

Jim Wilkins
------------
And then there is the easy way.

Use your indicator and a holder. While not as eligant as a
"storebought" one you can make your own out of a piece of
keystock and a bolt. For maximum indicator travel make as long
as possible that will still get the indicator on the table when
in the front and back positions with spindle centered on table.

Measure the front to back squareness. Disassemble the column
from the machine. Put a piece of aluminum foil where the column
bolts to the bed at either the top or the bottom, and
re-assemble. Remeasure the f/b squareness. If it got worse,
move the aluminum foil from the bottom to the top or the top to
the bottom. reassemble and check. If still not close enough, add
another piece of aluminum foil. [be sure these are flat with no
wrinkles of folds] If over corrected, replace the aluminum foil
with something thinner.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 06:03:38 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

On Mar 13, 9:35 pm, "Terry Coombs" wrote:
Michael Koblic wrote:
...
Mine tilts back about 0.008" in 3". I have done nothing about it
for fear that I will make things worse.

big snip

Thank you Jim, Terry and George.

The mini-mill column is attached to the base by only two bolts aligned along
the X-axis. The footprint of the column along the Y-axis is only 1.75".
Thus:
1) Limited room for the shims
2) High accuracy required for the shims in terms of thickness and placement.
3) The guys who tried it (according to the group posts) had variable results
at best
4) The column flex exceeds the slant by a factor of 2.
5) There is a very real potential that I could make things worse rather than
better.
6) The quality of work now is limited by the opreator rather than by the
machine.

I am not saying that I will not look at this in the future (might as well
fill the column with concrete, too). At present, however, I am acutely aware
of my limitations.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:30:51 -0700, "Michael Koblic"
wrote:

F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 06:03:38 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

On Mar 13, 9:35 pm, "Terry Coombs" wrote:
Michael Koblic wrote:
...
Mine tilts back about 0.008" in 3". I have done nothing about it
for fear that I will make things worse.

big snip

Thank you Jim, Terry and George.

The mini-mill column is attached to the base by only two bolts aligned along
the X-axis. The footprint of the column along the Y-axis is only 1.75".
Thus:
1) Limited room for the shims
2) High accuracy required for the shims in terms of thickness and placement.
3) The guys who tried it (according to the group posts) had variable results
at best
4) The column flex exceeds the slant by a factor of 2.
5) There is a very real potential that I could make things worse rather than
better.
6) The quality of work now is limited by the opreator rather than by the
machine.

I am not saying that I will not look at this in the future (might as well
fill the column with concrete, too). At present, however, I am acutely aware
of my limitations.
=========
and you can always trade up
see
http://www.mooretool.com/corporate.html
http://www.aboutus.org/MooreTool.com


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).