2 or 3 years ago with the helpful advice of folks on this forum I bought a
mini lathe and mini mill from Micro-Mark, and learned machining from
scratch. Since then I've made some neat little projects and learned a lot.
My very first Sterling engine worked! (until I tried to "improve" it) Now
I have an urge to move up to slightly larger machines, hopefully of a bit
better quality (more precise, better "feel", etc). I'm not sure if my minis
are getting sloppier, or I'm just noticing it more.

I have to stick to single-phase 110V.

So I'm browisng the Grizzly, Harbor Freight, and Enco sites, and there's a
lot to choose from.

I have a few questions:

- Will these larger machines have dials marked in inches (mils) like my
machines? I never see that in the specs.

- I'm going to have to get better at figuring out the correct speed to use,
because the larger machines don't have a variable potentiometer speed
control like I have on my little machines, right? If I find my speed is not
correct now, I just reach over and twist the dial a bit. Looks like on the
bigger machines I must shut down before picking a different speed.

- Will these generic China-made machines actually be any better quality
(hard to define) than my minis, or just a larger version of the same thing?
I expect they'll at least be stiffer overall, able to take a little bigger
bite out of the metal.

- If these sorts of machines aren't better quality, where else should I be
looking?

Thanks a lot

--How deep are your pockets? If you want a really wonderful machine
try a Myford; runs fine on 110.

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : I'll have the roast duck
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : with the mango salsa...
www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

Was like you a year ago, had a look at the finest "Quality
Import" stuff and settled on a 40+ year old Clausing mill,
perfect for hobby stuff. They're around for between $1000-2000.
Here's a link:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/clausing%20vertical/index.html

Check out my restoration:

http://gallery.intlwaters.com/thumbnails.php?album=323

Especially see the last page that details the accuracy of the
machine...

Terry, great restoration job. These mills are very nice.

i

On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 14:03:09 GMT, Terry Keeley wrote:
Was like you a year ago, had a look at the finest "Quality
Import" stuff and settled on a 40+ year old Clausing mill,
perfect for hobby stuff. They're around for between $1000-2000.
Here's a link:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/clausing%20vertical/index.html

Check out my restoration:

http://gallery.intlwaters.com/thumbnails.php?album=323

Especially see the last page that details the accuracy of the
machine...

Almost all of the 'imports' will have dials calibrated in inchs but..
Be aware that some have 8 TPI screws not 10 TPI screws that means the dial
goes from 0-.125... YIKES!!!
On a lathe crossslide this isn't too much of a pain but on a mill it's a
real bitch.

You are correct on these 'step pully' machines you have to stop and reset
the belts... you'll get good at knowing what speed to use really quickly....

Quality is such a subjective thing, but most of these import machines will
work to .001 if you take your time.

The problem with the smaller 8x24 (or so) lathes from griz,enco,jet is that
the compound on them is really junk, they have WAY to much flex in them...
after screwing up way too many things I finely removed the one from my
import lathe and just mounted a bigassed 4way directly to the crossslide..
for %90 of the work you do you don't need a compound. I've even done
threading with out it, you just take shalower cuts and 'dive' in...

The biggest downside to the mill/drills is the fact that they have no
'knee'..this means that (for all intents) you are limited to the depth that
the quill will go down to maintain calibration, once you loosen the bolts to
move the head up or down you loose registration... This can also be a
problem when drilling and reaming, again the big issue is that if you use a
short center drill you are limited in drill bit / reamer length to the throw
of the quill. If you do get one of these mill/drills the thing to do is
stick a dial indicator on it so you can measure the quill depth VERY
accuratly, you'll be amazed at the work you can do this way...

IMHO if you are going to spend the money on a larger milling machine get a
knee mill, (what ever brand, import or old American)...
As for motor power there are lots of alternatives from swapping the motor to
voltage/frequency converters...

FWIW I've owned both an import mill/drill and an import lathe (probably the
ones you are looking at)
and over the years I finely sold them both and bought some 'serious'
machines..

I now own a BridgePort 9x42 Jhead and a Clausing #5914, best things I ever
did :-)

--.- Dave


"Usenet" wrote in message
ink.net...
2 or 3 years ago with the helpful advice of folks on this forum I bought a
mini lathe and mini mill from Micro-Mark, and learned machining from
scratch. Since then I've made some neat little projects and learned a lot.
My very first Sterling engine worked! (until I tried to "improve" it) Now
I have an urge to move up to slightly larger machines, hopefully of a bit
better quality (more precise, better "feel", etc). I'm not sure if my
minis are getting sloppier, or I'm just noticing it more.

I have to stick to single-phase 110V.

So I'm browisng the Grizzly, Harbor Freight, and Enco sites, and there's a
lot to choose from.

I have a few questions:

- Will these larger machines have dials marked in inches (mils) like my
machines? I never see that in the specs.

- I'm going to have to get better at figuring out the correct speed to
use, because the larger machines don't have a variable potentiometer speed
control like I have on my little machines, right? If I find my speed is
not correct now, I just reach over and twist the dial a bit. Looks like
on the bigger machines I must shut down before picking a different speed.

- Will these generic China-made machines actually be any better quality
(hard to define) than my minis, or just a larger version of the same
thing? I expect they'll at least be stiffer overall, able to take a little
bigger bite out of the metal.

- If these sorts of machines aren't better quality, where else should I be
looking?

Thanks a lot

Almost all of the 'imports' will have dials calibrated in inchs but..
Be aware that some have 8 TPI screws not 10 TPI screws that means the dial
goes from 0-.125... YIKES!!!
On a lathe crossslide this isn't too much of a pain but on a mill it's a
real bitch.

That sounds horrid to me as well, but several users of 8 TPI machines
came forward to say it was not big deal to adapt. However, it's
probably just as easy to make a point of getting a 10 TPI machine.



The biggest downside to the mill/drills is the fact that they have no
'knee'..this means that (for all intents) you are limited to the depth that
the quill will go down to maintain calibration, once you loosen the bolts to
move the head up or down you loose registration...

Very true. FWIW, I have been able to avoid it in most situations. One
time I came really close to having to move the head and do another pair
of edge finds (over about 0.1 inch of drill bit!!!), but I was able to
cheat by using shorter parallels - the work piece still hit the stop.
No question that mill-drills are a compromise, but one that I am
enjoying. Consider getting an ER 32 setup; it helps a lot.


This can also be a
problem when drilling and reaming, again the big issue is that if you use a
short center drill you are limited in drill bit / reamer length to the throw
of the quill. If you do get one of these mill/drills the thing to do is
stick a dial indicator on it so you can measure the quill depth VERY
accuratly, you'll be amazed at the work you can do this way...

Do you have a preferred way to mount the indicator?



IMHO if you are going to spend the money on a larger milling machine get a
knee mill, (what ever brand, import or old American)...
As for motor power there are lots of alternatives from swapping the motor to
voltage/frequency converters...

Any preference between a new import and a used machine? As a
first-timer, I had enough surprises buying new. Clearly anyone looking
to trade up has some experience.

In my case, long before I buy another mill I should arrange for some
outdoor storage, and I need to choose between a trailer and a pickup.

On the latter, I might have found a used truck today. It's a Dodge Ram
1500, 1996, 130k miles, one owner whom I know well and can trust to tell
the truth about being the only owner, the one fender bender in the
vehicle's history, etc. It has an automatic tranny - I could learn to
live with that, but it makes repairs more expensive, and probably more
likely. No, my 1990 Sentra is _not_ for sale

I will also take another good look for any truck rental places near my
house. I grok that renting per need would likely be cheaper than
buying/insuring/maintaining a second vehicle. Deliveries are also an
option. The problem is that I end up waiting until I need enough stuff
to justify the hassle of renting or the cost of the delivery, and the
jobs sit unfinished. Comments/suggestions are welcome.

Bill

Bill,

When I had my my mill/drill I mounted my dial indcator next to the depth
indicator quill stop thingy. with the the indicator finger( thing that gets
pushed in) pointing up. Made a little arm that fit between the 2 nuts that
were used to set the depth. You could flip the arm out of the way when you
were drilling/reaming and flip it back when you wanted to use the indicator.
I keep a 1 inch on it all the time and had a 4 inch if I really needed it,
(which I think was only twice). It's a fairly simple matter to drop the
tool down on the top of your work piece and set the dial for zero. I used
the hand wheel and with the inherent play it had you could crank down and
see the indicator stop moving when you hit the top. With this rig I could
easily do .001 repetable work.

As for new import vs old american... it's no choice for me.... "Old
American" wins every time. You have to be cautious about what you buy, and
take your time, but there are some finds out there. I'm in California, not
too far from the bay area, there is a guy in Livermore (who's been mentioned
here many times) named Don Miller.... Don rebuilds BridgePorts... I bought
mine from him at a very reasonable price and it's as good as the day it came
from the factory (maybe better). FWIW I found Don on CraigsList.

I recently purchased a Clausing 5914 lathe from a guy in Oakland. I found it
on CraigsList too. The Clausing is used but not abused and in quite good
shape and I think I got it for a good price too.

I don't own a pickup truck (well if you call a 1980 'yoter' a pickup I guess
I do but.....) or a trailer. I can get a swell tilt trailer rated at well
over #4000 load from a local rental place for $25 a day. Worst case I'm
paying $75 for a trailer.. When it's time to move a machine I mooch a truck
or van big enough to tow the trailer from a friend or family member... The
BP was an extra chalnge since it's so heavy and every thing I read set use a
forklift even if you have to rent one, and so I did.. the forklift cost me
$100 for day but was well worth it. I have several friends who get a kick
out of helping me move machines sooo... I was a big party when I brought the
BP home.. LOL...

Dave

Dave,

When I had my my mill/drill I mounted my dial indcator next to the depth
indicator quill stop thingy. with the the indicator finger( thing that gets
pushed in) pointing up. Made a little arm that fit between the 2 nuts that
were used to set the depth. You could flip the arm out of the way when you
were drilling/reaming and flip it back when you wanted to use the indicator.
I keep a 1 inch on it all the time and had a 4 inch if I really needed it,
(which I think was only twice). It's a fairly simple matter to drop the
tool down on the top of your work piece and set the dial for zero. I used
the hand wheel and with the inherent play it had you could crank down and
see the indicator stop moving when you hit the top. With this rig I could
easily do .001 repetable work.

I think I'm following. That should be smoother than what I do
currently, which is lock/zero the vertical dial as well as I can and
then check depth with my calipers. So far, I have cared about depth
only on windows that are large enough to allow the measurements.


As for new import vs old american... it's no choice for me.... "Old
American" wins every time. You have to be cautious about what you buy, and
take your time, but there are some finds out there. I'm in California, not
too far from the bay area, there is a guy in Livermore (who's been mentioned
here many times) named Don Miller.... Don rebuilds BridgePorts... I bought
mine from him at a very reasonable price and it's as good as the day it came
from the factory (maybe better). FWIW I found Don on CraigsList.

Fair enough. It will be a while.



I don't own a pickup truck (well if you call a 1980 'yoter' a pickup I guess
I do but.....) or a trailer. I can get a swell tilt trailer rated at well
over #4000 load from a local rental place for $25 a day. Worst case I'm
paying $75 for a trailer.. When it's time to move a machine I mooch a truck
or van big enough to tow the trailer from a friend or family member...

I am going to take another look at the rental picture. However, it
turns a quick trip to the store into: (1) make sure the store has the
stuff; (2) get the rental wheels; (3) buy, deliver to home; (4) return
rental wheels. I'm also not thrilled about using my Sentra for towing
even a light load. A trailer would be a cheap option though. Thanks
for the perspective.


The
BP was an extra chalnge since it's so heavy and every thing I read set use a
forklift even if you have to rent one, and so I did.. the forklift cost me
$100 for day but was well worth it. I have several friends who get a kick
out of helping me move machines sooo... I was a big party when I brought the
BP home.. LOL...

What about breaking it into 800-1000 lb pieces and moving those with a
shop crane?

Bill

Yeah, that's pretty steep. Where do you buy them in the US?

"steamer" wrote in message
...
--How deep are your pockets? If you want a really wonderful machine
try a Myford; runs fine on 110.

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : I'll have the roast duck
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : with the mango salsa...
www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

Usenet wrote:
Yeah, that's pretty steep. Where do you buy them in the US?

--Well it's been a few decades since I bought mine, but I think it
might have been D&M Model Engineering..

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : I'll have the roast duck
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : with the mango salsa...
www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

Go google around, almost everyone agrees it's eayser to do the forklift
thing.
If you go the disassembly route about all you are going to do is take the
swivle head with the ram off the base and thats so off balance it's not
worth the pain.

I did take the table off (most people do) so it can go through a standard
door, but thats easy and two guys and grunt that around.

FWIW the fork lift was only used for 10 minutes to lift it up off the floor
of the trailer.
Did it the classic way, 2x4's on the forks for 'cushions' and lifted under
the ram.
Then drove the trailer forward and lowered the BP onto a dolly.
Rolled it into the shop and did the 'bar up, crib down' dance.
Took less than an hour total.

Haven't moved the Clausing yet, but the plan is to use the same trailer (too
cheap in my book)
I can borrow a 'cherry picker' engine hoist that will lift it, it's only
#1100, much lower CG, height and balance than the BP. Do the same lift and
drive trailer away, lower onto dolly, roll into place and 'bar up, crib
down'.

--.- Dave

The
BP was an extra chalnge since it's so heavy and every thing I read set
use a forklift even if you have to rent one, and so I did.. the forklift
cost me $100 for day but was well worth it. I have several friends who
get a kick out of helping me move machines sooo... I was a big party when
I brought the BP home.. LOL...

What about breaking it into 800-1000 lb pieces and moving those with a
shop crane?

Bill

Naw, I can pick up the mini-lathe and mini-mill and move them around with no
problem.

"Dave August" wrote in message
et...
Go google around, almost everyone agrees it's eayser to do the forklift
thing.
If you go the disassembly route about all you are going to do is take the
swivle head with the ram off the base and thats so off balance it's not
worth the pain.

I did take the table off (most people do) so it can go through a standard
door, but thats easy and two guys and grunt that around.

FWIW the fork lift was only used for 10 minutes to lift it up off the
floor of the trailer.
Did it the classic way, 2x4's on the forks for 'cushions' and lifted
under the ram.
Then drove the trailer forward and lowered the BP onto a dolly.
Rolled it into the shop and did the 'bar up, crib down' dance.
Took less than an hour total.

Haven't moved the Clausing yet, but the plan is to use the same trailer
(too cheap in my book)
I can borrow a 'cherry picker' engine hoist that will lift it, it's only
#1100, much lower CG, height and balance than the BP. Do the same lift
and drive trailer away, lower onto dolly, roll into place and 'bar up,
crib down'.

--.- Dave

The
BP was an extra chalnge since it's so heavy and every thing I read set
use a forklift even if you have to rent one, and so I did.. the forklift
cost me $100 for day but was well worth it. I have several friends who
get a kick out of helping me move machines sooo... I was a big party
when I brought the BP home.. LOL...

What about breaking it into 800-1000 lb pieces and moving those with a
shop crane?

Bill

Dave,

Go google around, almost everyone agrees it's eayser to do the forklift
thing.
If you go the disassembly route about all you are going to do is take the
swivle head with the ram off the base and thats so off balance it's not
worth the pain.

I did take the table off (most people do) so it can go through a standard
door, but thats easy and two guys and grunt that around.

FWIW the fork lift was only used for 10 minutes to lift it up off the floor
of the trailer.
Did it the classic way, 2x4's on the forks for 'cushions' and lifted under
the ram.
Then drove the trailer forward and lowered the BP onto a dolly.
Rolled it into the shop and did the 'bar up, crib down' dance.
Took less than an hour total.

On "bar up crib down" - I did some searching and might follow. Are you
saying that you used a lever to lift/walk it up onto stacked boards
(1x4+2x4), then somehow removed the dolly, then lifted to remove the
2x4's (one front, one back?), then repeated to remove the 1x4's one at a
time?


Haven't moved the Clausing yet, but the plan is to use the same trailer (too
cheap in my book)
I can borrow a 'cherry picker' engine hoist that will lift it, it's only
#1100, much lower CG, height and balance than the BP. Do the same lift and
drive trailer away, lower onto dolly, roll into place and 'bar up, crib
down'.

I wrestled my mill-drill into place using just a hoist and a lever to
push it over the "cliff" between my driveway and garage floor. Well, I
actually abused the hoise as a dolly by lowering the machine onto 2x4's
across the legs of the hoist, both as a backup support and to keep it
from swinging. I found 670 lb to be quite sufficient One question
about your Clausing: would it be easier to use the hoist to go from
dolly to ground?

FWIW, I bought a $140 engine hoist, and have found various uses for it
since getting the mill.

Bill

Bill,

Yep, that's the classic 'bar up, crib down'...
FWIW you can "bar up and crib up" too...

FYI the 'bar' is a swell 'jack bar' from (I think Costco).. 5 ft long,
hardened with a turned up lip... litfted the BP with no problems...

I learned 'baring up'.. when I was in the service for a crusty old Cheif
Boswains Mate.. that guy could was so good at doing big things with little
things, I'm sure he could do anything with nothing.. :-)

On "bar up crib down" - I did some searching and might follow. Are you
saying that you used a lever to lift/walk it up onto stacked boards
(1x4+2x4), then somehow removed the dolly, then lifted to remove the 2x4's
(one front, one back?), then repeated to remove the 1x4's one at a time?


Hell when I had my mill/drill I just got another buddy of mine and we just
'muscled it around'... I can push/drag my import lathe around by myself...
If I *need* to lift it two guys can eaysily pick it up off it stand.. It'll
make it easy to load when I sell it ..:-)

Yeah I'll probably hois it to the ground.. I had a few microbrews when I
wrote that last note and was still not sure if I was gonna hoist or bar to
do the initial lift...
If I bar it'll be bar all the way, If I hoist it'll be hoist all the way...

I hear you on the buying the hoist but I have 2 pals that own them and it's
much cheaper to borrow one..:-)

--.- Dave

I wrestled my mill-drill into place using just a hoist and a lever to push
it over the "cliff" between my driveway and garage floor. Well, I
actually abused the hoise as a dolly by lowering the machine onto 2x4's
across the legs of the hoist, both as a backup support and to keep it from
swinging. I found 670 lb to be quite sufficient One question about
your Clausing: would it be easier to use the hoist to go from dolly to
ground?

FWIW, I bought a $140 engine hoist, and have found various uses for it
since getting the mill.

Bill

Dave,

Yep, that's the classic 'bar up, crib down'...
FWIW you can "bar up and crib up" too...

FYI the 'bar' is a swell 'jack bar' from (I think Costco).. 5 ft long,
hardened with a turned up lip... litfted the BP with no problems...

That goes in the future reference file - thanks!


I learned 'baring up'.. when I was in the service for a crusty old Cheif
Boswains Mate.. that guy could was so good at doing big things with little
things, I'm sure he could do anything with nothing.. :-)

I know a few guys like that. Two are ex-military, the other is _still_
a hippie



Hell when I had my mill/drill I just got another buddy of mine and we just
'muscled it around'... I can push/drag my import lathe around by myself...
If I *need* to lift it two guys can eaysily pick it up off it stand.. It'll
make it easy to load when I sell it ..:-)

When I think about it, I can almost see two guys handling a mill-drill.
I managed to flip my table saw by myself (before I bought the hoist)
by "cornering it" it against a board. Of course, it was not at full
weight because the motor was not installed at that stage.



Yeah I'll probably hois it to the ground.. I had a few microbrews when I
wrote that last note and was still not sure if I was gonna hoist or bar to
do the initial lift...

No problem; thanks for the insight.

Bill