Last night I posted a caution about using overpriced electric heaters to
heat the shop. It never appeared. Where did it go? Can someone
take negative posts off the NG? If so, why do they allow posts that
"dis" Harbor Freight or those that tell horror stories about tools, etc.?

I thought I had done a good job of using facts provided to me by the
media that ran one of the ads.

Pete Stanaitis

On 2009-01-29, spaco wrote:
Last night I posted a caution about using overpriced electric heaters to
heat the shop. It never appeared. Where did it go? Can someone
take negative posts off the NG? If so, why do they allow posts that
"dis" Harbor Freight or those that tell horror stories about tools, etc.?

I thought I had done a good job of using facts provided to me by the
media that ran one of the ads.

I am not aware of any process that would eliminate messages in this
newsgroup based on their content.

I did not see the messages that you are mentioning.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

On Jan 29, 4:50*pm, spaco wrote:
Last night I posted a caution about using overpriced electric heaters to
* heat the shop. * It never appeared. *Where did it go? * Can someone
take *negative posts off the NG? * If *so, why do they allow posts that
"dis" *Harbor Freight or those that tell horror stories about tools, etc.?

I thought I had done a good job of using facts provided to me by the
media that ran one of the ads.

Pete Stanaitis

"I just saw the TV ad for the "Heat Surge" (free if you buy the Amish
enclosure for $289 Plus S&H) for the umteenth time. They said at
the
end of the ad that ---not to worry, it is safe since it uses no more
power than the average coffee maker--.
Okay, so why not just use your coffee maker for the heat and save
ALL
the purchase price? "

jw

Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Jan 29, 4:50 pm, spaco wrote:

Last night I posted a caution about using overpriced electric heaters to
heat the shop. It never appeared. Where did it go? Can someone
take negative posts off the NG? If so, why do they allow posts that
"dis" Harbor Freight or those that tell horror stories about tools, etc.?

I thought I had done a good job of using facts provided to me by the
media that ran one of the ads.

Pete Stanaitis


"I just saw the TV ad for the "Heat Surge" (free if you buy the Amish
enclosure for $289 Plus S&H) for the umteenth time. They said at
the
end of the ad that ---not to worry, it is safe since it uses no more
power than the average coffee maker--.
Okay, so why not just use your coffee maker for the heat and save
ALL
the purchase price? "

jw



I heat my shop with electric... but first it goes into running the
machines and then all winds up as heat except for the energy used to put
stresses in the metals I machine. 900 bucks gives off a lot of heat. I
do have a backup fuel oil and propane furnace.

John

spaco wrote:

Last night I posted a caution about using overpriced electric heaters to
heat the shop. It never appeared. Where did it go? Can someone
take negative posts off the NG?


Your usenet provider may be filtering or the next feed up. Supernews was very good at it.

Wes

spaco wrote:
Last night I posted a caution about using overpriced electric heaters
to heat the shop. It never appeared. Where did it go? Can
someone take negative posts off the NG? If so, why do they allow posts
that "dis" Harbor Freight or those that tell horror stories about
tools, etc.?
I thought I had done a good job of using facts provided to me by the
media that ran one of the ads.

Pete Stanaitis

On my comp , your post showed up at 6:49 PM yesterday . Not all news
servers are created equal ... there have been times when my posts didn't
ever show up , but responses to them did . Some times there are gaps in
threads , sometimes everything works perfectly .
As far as I know , the only one that can remove a post is the person that
wrote it - and I may be wrong , there's probably a way around that .
--
Snag
every answer
leads to another
question

On Jan 29, 3:50*pm, spaco wrote:
Last night I posted a caution about using overpriced electric heaters to
* heat the shop. * It never appeared. *Where did it go? * Can someone
take *negative posts off the NG? * If *so, why do they allow posts that
"dis" *Harbor Freight or those that tell horror stories about tools, etc.?

I thought I had done a good job of using facts provided to me by the
media that ran one of the ads.

Pete Stanaitis

Your original post is still visible through Google Groups:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.c...d8b3b6f01a9ce#

spaco wrote in
:

Last night I posted a caution about using overpriced electric heaters
to
heat the shop. It never appeared. Where did it go? Can someone
take negative posts off the NG? If so, why do they allow posts
that "dis" Harbor Freight or those that tell horror stories about
tools, etc.?

I thought I had done a good job of using facts provided to me by the
media that ran one of the ads.

Pete Stanaitis

Dou you mean the one that started out with

"I just saw the TV ad for the "Heat Surge" (free if you buy the Amish
enclosure for $289 Plus S&H) for the umteenth time. They said at the
end of the ad that ---not to worry, it is safe since it uses no more
power than the average coffee maker--.
Okay, so why not just use your coffee maker for the heat and save ALL
the purchase price?"?

If so, then have you plonked yourself?

Some services don't post everything instantly - I've seen as much as 30
minutes pass before some of mine show up - but they dventually do.

On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 17:34:51 -0500, Wes wrote:
spaco wrote:

Last night I posted a caution about using overpriced electric heaters to
heat the shop. It never appeared. Where did it go? Can someone
take negative posts off the NG?


Your usenet provider may be filtering or the next feed up. Supernews was very good at it.

Agreed, it might have been tagged as Spam and flushed by an
over-eager filter.

Post a MessageID number, and we can find it, look at the Path:
headers to ID the route it took through the IntarWebs ;-) and see if
there's a pattern.

-- Bruce --

Thanks for the replies so far, guys.
For some reason my server isn't letting this post through to me.
I am glad that my post did get to the rest of you. Thanks to "quillemd"
for the link to Google groups where I can see these replies.

Pete Stanaitis
---------------
spaco wrote:
Last night I posted a caution about using overpriced electric heaters to
heat the shop. It never appeared. Where did it go? Can someone
take negative posts off the NG? If so, why do they allow posts that
"dis" Harbor Freight or those that tell horror stories about tools, etc.?

I thought I had done a good job of using facts provided to me by the
media that ran one of the ads.

Pete Stanaitis

spaco wrote:
Last night I posted a caution about using overpriced electric heaters to
heat the shop. It never appeared. Where did it go? Can someone
take negative posts off the NG? If so, why do they allow posts that
"dis" Harbor Freight or those that tell horror stories about tools, etc.?

I thought I had done a good job of using facts provided to me by the
media that ran one of the ads.

Pete Stanaitis

You mean this one? I show it as 1/28/09 posted at 19:49


I just saw the TV ad for the "Heat Surge" (free if you buy the Amish
enclosure for $289 Plus S&H) for the umteenth time. They said at the
end of the ad that ---not to worry, it is safe since it uses no more
power than the average coffee maker--.
Okay, so why not just use your coffee maker for the heat and save ALL
the purchase price?

Is anybody else as ticked off as I am about these people scamming the
public?

The "Edin Pure" heater advertised in the AARP mag says it'll save "up
to 50%" on your heating bill, while the "heat surge" only offers a 20%
savings. Of course, the difference must be due to the fact that the
Edin Pure costs $389 and, NO wooden cabinet.

BYW, here's what Edin Pure apparently told AARP's advertising dept.
about their "savings" research":
With regard to the savings claim:

7.8% responded they saved 50% or greater.
29.4% responded they saved 25-50%
41.2% responded they saved 10-25%

Yah- for those with calculators, I wonder what the missing 21.6% had
to say! ?????

I wrote to AARP to complain that they are ripping off the very people
(us retired people) that they claim to protect. They simply
(apparently) asked Edin Pure if everything they claimed was true and
guess what, Edin Pure said it was. So, end of story, Pete. We will
keep on taking the money from the full page ad while continuing to bilk
the readership without doing any serious investigation.

"Boo" AARP!!!

Pete Stanaitis
--
Steve W.

Jim Wilkins wrote:

"I just saw the TV ad for the "Heat Surge" (free if you buy the Amish
enclosure for $289 Plus S&H) for the umteenth time. They said at
the
end of the ad that ---not to worry, it is safe since it uses no more
power than the average coffee maker--.
Okay, so why not just use your coffee maker for the heat and save
ALL
the purchase price? "

Saw it too. The answer is that, like a coffee maker, it will heat up a space
equivalent to a coffee cup :-) Why would laws od physics not apply to this
wonder?

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

"spaco" wrote in message
.. .
Last night I posted a caution about using overpriced electric heaters to
heat the shop. It never appeared. Where did it go? Can someone take
negative posts off the NG? If so, why do they allow posts that "dis"
Harbor Freight or those that tell horror stories about tools, etc.?

I thought I had done a good job of using facts provided to me by the media
that ran one of the ads.

Pete Stanaitis

Pete, let me share something with you. And I'm not paranoid.............

IT'S ALL A CONSPIRACY!

Steve ........ it's not paranoia if they really ARE out to get you. Pass
the aluminum foil.

"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...
Jim Wilkins wrote:

"I just saw the TV ad for the "Heat Surge" (free if you buy the Amish
enclosure for $289 Plus S&H) for the umteenth time. They said at
the
end of the ad that ---not to worry, it is safe since it uses no more
power than the average coffee maker--.
Okay, so why not just use your coffee maker for the heat and save
ALL
the purchase price? "

Saw it too. The answer is that, like a coffee maker, it will heat up a
space equivalent to a coffee cup :-) Why would laws od physics not apply
to this wonder?

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

My MIL bought one. She also swears that if you keep ANYTHING in the
refrigerator, it won't go bad. You can keep spaghetti eight months, and so
long as it's been in the Fridge, she'll pull it out and serve it. TO YOU.

"Oh, I don't want any, I just ate," she'll say.

"I don't eat green spaghetti," I'll say.

If you can't tell me when you made it, I ain't eating it.

Steve

Not your post nor any replies are on my server (NewsGuy) either. WTF?
I wonder how much else I miss 'cause the OP sees it, so doesn't ask
about it, but I don't.

Bob

I don't know that there is a specific reason why you don't see posts, Pete,
but I suspect that there are possibly dozens of reasons why some messages
don't look like they've made it out onto any network.

This hack/spitWindows machine and newsreader (and my previous machines using
windows) routinely miss picking up posts and replies.

If my machine is off for a day, I won't see posts from that day unless I go
check the Goog RCM postings. I know this isn't operating properly, don't
know why, and get a little crazy(ier) trying to figure out software issues,
especially when retreiving messages from a network should be a very simple
operation.
I'm not interested in wasting another second of my time trying to find out
why this crap doesn't work.

I've seen news articles that stated that about 1M homes are without
electrical power in the past few days, and I would assume that some networks
have had interruptions, too.

Someone mentioned that they may not see their posts for a long as 30
minutes, as though they meant that they alwas see them, but sometimes with a
delay.

I've posted messages that just seem to evaporate, never to be seen. Other
times, the Send hiccups and makes two identical posts.

The most reliable method I know of, to see if a message/post makes it to the
upper levels is to check the Goog RCM postings.

http://groups.google.com/advanced_search?q=&

If you put your name/ID in the Author space, and rec.crafts.metalworking in
the Group space, and choose a specific period of time in the Message Dates
space, you might then be able to save a shortcut to those results.

Lately, I've been making a shortcut to show all my postings and replies for
the first thru the last day of each month. That allows me to see if I miss
replies, and gives me the opportunity to thank someone for their reply, when
I would normally not know that they had offered some help.

I know two guys that have the Eden type heaters, and I agree the makers are
deceptive, but it's anything for a buck these days, and any way that buck
can be gotten seems to SOP anymore.

It's about the same as the bull**** marketing that was used to sell thermal
windows with the pitch that they would pay for themselves. New windows can
be very leaky and still qualify for the Energy star and other
ratings/approvals.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"spaco" wrote in message
.. .
Last night I posted a caution about using overpriced electric heaters to
heat the shop. It never appeared. Where did it go? Can someone take
negative posts off the NG? If so, why do they allow posts that "dis"
Harbor Freight or those that tell horror stories about tools, etc.?

I thought I had done a good job of using facts provided to me by the media
that ran one of the ads.

Pete Stanaitis

"SteveB" writes:

My MIL bought one. She also swears that if you keep ANYTHING in the
refrigerator, it won't go bad. You can keep spaghetti eight months, and so
long as it's been in the Fridge, she'll pull it out and serve it. TO YOU.

"Oh, I don't want any, I just ate," she'll say.

"I don't eat green spaghetti," I'll say.

If you can't tell me when you made it, I ain't eating it.

How is your relationship with your MIL in general? Does she only
serve these antique dishes to you, or to other people as well? Is
there a correlation with those other people being, for instance, other
SILs, disliked coworkers, etc? If so, any fatalities?

Someone who established a pattern of trying to serve me food they
weren't themselves willing to eat would make me nervous....

On 2009-01-29, Terry Coombs wrote:
spaco wrote:
Last night I posted a caution about using overpriced electric heaters
to heat the shop. It never appeared. Where did it go? Can
someone take negative posts off the NG? If so, why do they allow posts
that "dis" Harbor Freight or those that tell horror stories about
tools, etc.?

More importantly, why do they allow all the political spew?
Horror stories about tools, or about Harbor Freight are at least on
topic.

I thought I had done a good job of using facts provided to me by the
media that ran one of the ads.

Pete Stanaitis

On my comp , your post showed up at 6:49 PM yesterday . Not all news
servers are created equal ... there have been times when my posts didn't
ever show up , but responses to them did . Some times there are gaps in
threads , sometimes everything works perfectly .

Absolutely.

As far as I know , the only one that can remove a post is the person that
wrote it - and I may be wrong , there's probably a way around that .

Also, the administrator of the news server on which the article
was originally posted can cancel it. But this is very seldom done, only
when you have a good news admin who has spotted a spam spew from his
server.

It sounds as though you are being a bit paranoid to think that
people canceled your articles.

DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:50:31 -0600, spaco
wrote:

Last night I posted a caution about using overpriced electric heaters to
heat the shop. It never appeared. Where did it go? Can someone
take negative posts off the NG? If so, why do they allow posts that
"dis" Harbor Freight or those that tell horror stories about tools, etc.?

I thought I had done a good job of using facts provided to me by the
media that ran one of the ads.

Pete Stanaitis

I saw your post, Pete. 'Course, I'm not very far from you. G

On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:50:31 -0600, spaco
wrote:

Last night I posted a caution about using overpriced electric heaters to
heat the shop. It never appeared. Where did it go? Can someone
take negative posts off the NG? If so, why do they allow posts that
"dis" Harbor Freight or those that tell horror stories about tools, etc.?

I thought I had done a good job of using facts provided to me by the
media that ran one of the ads.

Pete Stanaitis

Well, none of your thread showed up for me, either. I read from
Earthlink's news server, which I always thought was good, but...

Joe

Jim Wilkins wrote:

"I just saw the TV ad for the "Heat Surge" (free if you buy the Amish
enclosure for $289 Plus S&H) for the umteenth time. They said at
the
end of the ad that ---not to worry, it is safe since it uses no more
power than the average coffee maker--.
Okay, so why not just use your coffee maker for the heat and save
ALL
the purchase price? "

jw

Exactly. All electric heaters are virtually 100% efficient. It is easy
to turn electricity into heat, very hard to turn it into anything else
without some of the electric energy coming out as heat. Those heaters
are a scam. I am trying to convince people of this, but the usual
response is, "if it were not true, they wouldn't let them put that in
the paper."

Exactly. *All electric heaters are virtually 100% efficient. It is easy
to turn electricity into heat, very hard to turn it into anything else
without some of the electric energy coming out as heat. *Those heaters
are a scam. I am trying to convince people of this, but the usual
response is, "if it were not true, they wouldn't let them put that in
the paper."

Thanks, Don.
The incandescent light bulb is also 100% efficient. It is also an
electricity to heat converter. The lack of efficiency is in the human
eyesight being limited to a narrow band of electromagnetic
wavelengths.

Our home is heated with heat pump and backed up with electric furnace.
Any incandescent light turned on contributes 100% to the home heating.
The down side is it also contributes when we don't need the heat!

When I try to explain all this to a tree hugger, their eyes just glaze
over. Can't be true because their leader says it's not.

Paul

"Don Stauffer" wrote in message
...
Jim Wilkins wrote:

"I just saw the TV ad for the "Heat Surge" (free if you buy the Amish
enclosure for $289 Plus S&H) for the umteenth time. They said at
the
end of the ad that ---not to worry, it is safe since it uses no more
power than the average coffee maker--.
Okay, so why not just use your coffee maker for the heat and save
ALL
the purchase price? "

jw

Exactly. All electric heaters are virtually 100% efficient. It is easy to
turn electricity into heat, very hard to turn it into anything else
without some of the electric energy coming out as heat. Those heaters are
a scam. I am trying to convince people of this, but the usual response is,
"if it were not true, they wouldn't let them put that in the paper."

You're thinking about this in the same terms I was, and I still think it's
the honest way to approach it. But as several people mentioned here, you
could claim to save energy costs with one of these things if you use it for
local room heating, and lower your general household temperature.

Not having seen the ads it isn't clear if they're including that fact, or if
they're implying that they're talking about lowering costs for heating the
whole house. The way the FTC interprets the law, if you imply something that
isn't true, even without stating it explicitly, your ad is fraudulent.

--
Ed Huntress

On Jan 29, 3:47*pm, "Steve W." wrote:
spaco wrote:
Last night I posted a caution about using overpriced electric heaters to
*heat the shop. * It never appeared. *Where did it go? * Can someone
take *negative posts off the NG? * If *so, why do they allow posts that
"dis" *Harbor Freight or those that tell horror stories about tools, etc.?

I thought I had done a good job of using facts provided to me by the
media that ran one of the ads.

Pete Stanaitis

You mean this one? I show it as 1/28/09 posted at 19:49

I just saw the TV ad for the "Heat Surge" (free if you buy the Amish
enclosure for $289 Plus S&H) for the umteenth time. * They said at the
end of the ad that ---not to worry, it is safe since it uses no more
power than the average coffee maker--.
* Okay, so why not just use your coffee maker for the heat and save ALL
the purchase price?

Is anybody else as ticked off as I am about these people scamming the
public?

The "Edin Pure" *heater advertised in the AARP mag says it'll save "up
to *50%" on your heating bill, while the "heat surge" only offers a 20%
savings. *Of course, the difference must be due to the fact that the
Edin Pure costs $389 and, * NO wooden cabinet.

BYW, here's what Edin Pure apparently told AARP's advertising dept.
about their "savings" research":
With regard to the savings claim:

7.8% responded they saved 50% or greater.
29.4% responded they saved 25-50%
41.2% responded they saved 10-25%

Yah- *for those with calculators, *I wonder what the missing 21.6% had
to say! *?????

I wrote to AARP to complain that they are ripping off the very people
(us retired people) that they claim to protect. *They simply
(apparently) asked Edin Pure if everything they claimed was true and
guess what, Edin Pure said it was. * So, end of story, Pete. *We will
keep on taking the money from the full page ad while continuing to bilk
the readership without doing any serious investigation.

"Boo" *AARP!!!

Pete Stanaitis
--
Steve W.

You still belong to aarp even after they jumped in to the middle
on the part "D" discussion and helped to scam us again?

They're nothing but an insurance company protecting the
overblown salaries of the executives.

dennis
in nca

On Jan 29, 5:46*pm, "SteveB" wrote:
"Michael Koblic" wrote in message

...





Jim Wilkins wrote:

"I just saw the TV ad for the "Heat Surge" (free if you buy the Amish
enclosure for $289 Plus S&H) for the umteenth time. * They said at
the
end of the ad that ---not to worry, it is safe since it uses no more
power than the average coffee maker--.
* *Okay, so why not just use your coffee maker for the heat and save
ALL
the purchase price? "

Saw it too. The answer is that, like a coffee maker, it will heat up a
space equivalent to a coffee cup :-) Why would laws od physics not apply
to this wonder?

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

My MIL bought one. *She also swears that if you keep ANYTHING in the
refrigerator, it won't go bad. *You can keep spaghetti eight months, and so
long as it's been in the Fridge, she'll pull it out and serve it. *TO YOU.

"Oh, I don't want any, I just ate," she'll say.

"I don't eat green spaghetti," I'll say.

If you can't tell me when you made it, I ain't eating it.

Steve- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

To paraphrase an old time advice columnist "Eat it,
it's like penicillin."

dennis
in nca

spaco wrote:
Last night I posted a caution about using overpriced electric heaters to
heat the shop. It never appeared. Where did it go? Can someone
take negative posts off the NG? If so, why do they allow posts that
"dis" Harbor Freight or those that tell horror stories about tools, etc.?

I thought I had done a good job of using facts provided to me by the
media that ran one of the ads.
Theoretically, only YOU can cancel a newsgroup
post on an unmoderated group.
But, anyone who knows how to spoof an outgoing
address can cancel your post, by pretending to be
you. (I think you would get a "your post was
cancelled" message.)

More likely, however, is that your post was
"dropped". Usenet (NNTP) is a network of
cooperating servers that pass along messages on a
time-available basis. If they get too busy to
handle incoming traffic, they just toss the
overflow. As usenet is not a big moneymaker for
general ISPs, they often don't allow enough
network bandwidth or CPU time for it. It seems
only the dedicated news servers take it seriously.

Jon

Right on, Don ! Even more eficient than (incandescent) electric lights. Did you ever wonder why
light bulbs are rated in Watts ? AFAIK, there is no conversion from Watts to lumens.

Bob Swinney
"Don Stauffer" wrote in message
...
Jim Wilkins wrote:

"I just saw the TV ad for the "Heat Surge" (free if you buy the Amish
enclosure for $289 Plus S&H) for the umteenth time. They said at
the
end of the ad that ---not to worry, it is safe since it uses no more
power than the average coffee maker--.
Okay, so why not just use your coffee maker for the heat and save
ALL
the purchase price? "

jw

Exactly. All electric heaters are virtually 100% efficient. It is easy
to turn electricity into heat, very hard to turn it into anything else
without some of the electric energy coming out as heat. Those heaters
are a scam. I am trying to convince people of this, but the usual
response is, "if it were not true, they wouldn't let them put that in
the paper."

Don sez:
"I saw your post, Pete. 'Course, I'm not very far from you. G"

You yankees are laying a bad rap on our Amish friends. Down here we use one of the Eden heaters for
spot cooling in the Summer months.

Bob Swinney

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:50:31 -0600, spaco
wrote:

Last night I posted a caution about using overpriced electric heaters to
heat the shop. It never appeared. Where did it go? Can someone
take negative posts off the NG? If so, why do they allow posts that
"dis" Harbor Freight or those that tell horror stories about tools, etc.?

I thought I had done a good job of using facts provided to me by the
media that ran one of the ads.

Pete Stanaitis

On Jan 30, 10:02*am, rigger wrote:
On Jan 29, 3:47*pm, "Steve W." wrote:
---- snipage ------

I wrote to AARP to complain that they are ripping off the very people
(us retired people) that they claim to protect. *They simply
(apparently) asked Edin Pure if everything they claimed was true and
guess what, Edin Pure said it was. * So, end of story, Pete. *We will
keep on taking the money from the full page ad while continuing to bilk
the readership without doing any serious investigation.

"Boo" *AARP!!!

Pete Stanaitis
--
Steve W.

You still belong to aarp even after they jumped in to the middle
on the part "D" discussion and helped to scam us again?

They're nothing but an insurance company protecting the
overblown salaries of the executives.

dennis
in nca- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I agree with all of this thread. After AARP got into the Medicare
part D "pig Pile", I Iost all respect for the organizatioin. It does
little good to cancel ones membership. Some times motels offer a AARP
discount that is greater than the AAA discount.

Regarding the Amish stove, thier TV advertising characterizes it as a
5,000 BTU heater. That can only mean 5,000 BTUs per hour. Thus, It
is a 171 Watt space heater (5000/29.3) that offers some warm colored
visual effects to create the illusion of heat.

The Amish cabinetry aspect is bewildering -- the Luddite tendency of
this sect is perhaps compatible with the low tech heat-illusion-box
concept.

Farky Bipski

On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:28:18 -0600, "Robert Swinney"
wrote:

Right on, Don ! Even more eficient than (incandescent) electric lights. Did you ever wonder why
light bulbs are rated in Watts ? AFAIK, there is no conversion from Watts to lumens.

Bob Swinney
"Don Stauffer" wrote in message
.. .
Jim Wilkins wrote:

"I just saw the TV ad for the "Heat Surge" (free if you buy the Amish
enclosure for $289 Plus S&H) for the umteenth time. They said at
the
end of the ad that ---not to worry, it is safe since it uses no more
power than the average coffee maker--.
Okay, so why not just use your coffee maker for the heat and save
ALL
the purchase price? "

jw

Exactly. All electric heaters are virtually 100% efficient. It is easy
to turn electricity into heat, very hard to turn it into anything else
without some of the electric energy coming out as heat. Those heaters
are a scam. I am trying to convince people of this, but the usual
response is, "if it were not true, they wouldn't let them put that in
the paper."

That part is true - Resistance electric heat when viewed all by
itself in a vacuum is pretty efficient.

But the problem is the INefficiency inherent in generating the
electricity and getting it from the power plant to your house. Heat
losses in firing the boiler, and turning the generator, and running
the cooling tower and all the auxilliaries.

If you are getting "Cheap" electricity from geothermal, or solar, or
hydroelectric, or pumped storage hydroelectric you still have to build
and maintain and operate the plants.

Then you have transformer losses at several points as you boost the
voltage up for long distance transmission, and all the resistive and
corona leakage losses along the transmission lines. And then
transforming the voltage back down in several steps for distribution,
till the customer sees it as 120/240V. And you PAY FOR every bit of
that inefficiency as part of the power bill.

If you burn natural gas in a furnace in your basement to get heat,
you get at least twice as much actual heat (if not three times) than
you would if you burned the same quantity of natural gas in a
powerplant boiler half a state away, and an electric heater element in
the same heating system.

(You do a bit better running a Heat Pump in a mild climate, but not
much - and only in mild climates. When it gets below about 45-F
outside the efficiency falls off and by 35-F you have to switch to
resistance heat. The outside evaporator core ices over.)

And you have to pay for the cost of running the powerplant and
building the power lines on top of paying for the gas they used.

-- Bruce --

On 2009-01-30, Wild_Bill wrote:
I don't know that there is a specific reason why you don't see posts, Pete,
but I suspect that there are possibly dozens of reasons why some messages
don't look like they've made it out onto any network.

And for those who post and read using Google, there is a *long*
fuse (often several hours) between a posting being made and it showing
up on the Google newsreader -- even though it fairly quickly makes its
way out to the rest of the world, and often followups are seen before
your own post.

This has resulted in people re-trying multiple times because
they thought that their articles had just vanished.

This hack/spitWindows machine and newsreader (and my previous machines using
windows) routinely miss picking up posts and replies.

:-)

If my machine is off for a day, I won't see posts from that day unless I go
check the Goog RCM postings. I know this isn't operating properly, don't
know why, and get a little crazy(ier) trying to figure out software issues,
especially when retreiving messages from a network should be a very simple
operation.

Note that each news server not only has its own expire times for
articles, but the news administrator can tune it to be longer for some
newsgroups and shorter for others (most often the most active ones).
Thus, all the discussion about politics probably has the effect of
getting shorter expire times on the news servers which don't pride
themselves on keeping lots of articles. I know that when I ran a news
server I had expire times set between 1 day and 30 days, depending on my
personal interest in the newsgroups in question.

I'm not interested in wasting another second of my time trying to find out
why this crap doesn't work.

Try a different news server. Or talk to your current one and
explain that rec.crafts.metalworking is of interest to you and could the
please stretch the expire time a bit.

I've seen news articles that stated that about 1M homes are without
electrical power in the past few days, and I would assume that some networks
have had interruptions, too.

Some -- but most have gasoline or diesel powered backup
generators.

Someone mentioned that they may not see their posts for a long as 30
minutes, as though they meant that they alwas see them, but sometimes with a
delay.

I've posted messages that just seem to evaporate, never to be seen. Other
times, the Send hiccups and makes two identical posts.

The most reliable method I know of, to see if a message/post makes it to the
upper levels is to check the Goog RCM postings.

http://groups.google.com/advanced_search?q=&

Get a good news server and things are a lot better.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

In article ,
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
:Not your post nor any replies are on my server (NewsGuy) either. WTF?
:I wonder how much else I miss 'cause the OP sees it, so doesn't ask
:about it, but I don't.

The original post is right there on Newsguy, article 465444 in
rec.crafts.metalworking, along with its 7 replies.

NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 18:49:26 -0600
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 18:49:56 -0600
From: spaco
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax)
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: OT, or maybe not: "Heat Surge" and "Edin Pure" How to heat your
shop on the Cheap????
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:
Lines: 36
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.157.163.135
X-Trace: sv3-mvGjA7hO/ofpo9uDNTcnP3Uwue2bRdYRcKxgem05njNWvTo4A1jHIypVhLo F2fjc6+6mvbF1JPO2HoX!qchd4ZpZ2XVD6CV5VWaEwSrybYPtm l/cZPLAstocTAI47b6IYx2YnFIDN7twMyQtNeUTRZPO198i!NU1A kFRxl0Se
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.39
Xref: drn.newsguy.com rec.crafts.metalworking:465444
X-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 00:49:27 UTC (s02-b20)

Perhaps there was a glitch and not all of Newsguy's servers received the
article.

--
Bob Nichols AT comcast.net I am "RNichols42"

Thanks, DoN. We've discussed these issues before when I asked why my RCM
messages were purged (Oct, maybe and again in Dec without mention).

I've had these same issues with small local ISPs getting news feeds from the
big ones, and with larger ISPs, with Terranews, and now with Forte. I'm
beyond giving a crap why these problems exist.. if I miss something I might
catch it the next time the subject comes up.

Very few things **** me off faster than software-related problems on idiotic
machines, and it's not worth the frustration to me. Or, I'm the idiot, but
it still doesn't matter enough for me to try this, then that, etc, etc.

I wasn't online over last weekend, and I didn't miss much of anything,
certainly nothing metalworking-related (I checked).

When I got back, I just needed to delete a few more messages than I usually
do on a daily basis.

The most reliable daily use service/software I use is Yahoo mail. Free, with
huge bandwidth allotment and not a single problem.
The few times that they've made changes in the past several/maybe 5 years,
it actually got easier to use, and the bandwidth has been increased.
It doesn't need to update for a half hour every day, and it only rarely
displays a slight hiccup which gets corrected with a click of Back or
Refresh.
When I saw that MSoft was trying to buy Yahoo, it about made me sick.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2009-01-30, Wild_Bill wrote:
I don't know that there is a specific reason why you don't see posts,
Pete,
but I suspect that there are possibly dozens of reasons why some messages
don't look like they've made it out onto any network.

And for those who post and read using Google, there is a *long*
fuse (often several hours) between a posting being made and it showing
up on the Google newsreader -- even though it fairly quickly makes its
way out to the rest of the world, and often followups are seen before
your own post.

This has resulted in people re-trying multiple times because
they thought that their articles had just vanished.

This hack/spitWindows machine and newsreader (and my previous machines
using
windows) routinely miss picking up posts and replies.

:-)

If my machine is off for a day, I won't see posts from that day unless I
go
check the Goog RCM postings. I know this isn't operating properly, don't
know why, and get a little crazy(ier) trying to figure out software
issues,
especially when retreiving messages from a network should be a very
simple
operation.

Note that each news server not only has its own expire times for
articles, but the news administrator can tune it to be longer for some
newsgroups and shorter for others (most often the most active ones).
Thus, all the discussion about politics probably has the effect of
getting shorter expire times on the news servers which don't pride
themselves on keeping lots of articles. I know that when I ran a news
server I had expire times set between 1 day and 30 days, depending on my
personal interest in the newsgroups in question.

I'm not interested in wasting another second of my time trying to find
out
why this crap doesn't work.

Try a different news server. Or talk to your current one and
explain that rec.crafts.metalworking is of interest to you and could the
please stretch the expire time a bit.

I've seen news articles that stated that about 1M homes are without
electrical power in the past few days, and I would assume that some
networks
have had interruptions, too.

Some -- but most have gasoline or diesel powered backup
generators.

Someone mentioned that they may not see their posts for a long as 30
minutes, as though they meant that they alwas see them, but sometimes
with a
delay.

I've posted messages that just seem to evaporate, never to be seen. Other
times, the Send hiccups and makes two identical posts.

The most reliable method I know of, to see if a message/post makes it to
the
upper levels is to check the Goog RCM postings.

http://groups.google.com/advanced_search?q=&

Get a good news server and things are a lot better.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

Then you have transformer losses at several points as you boost the
voltage up for long distance transmission, and all the resistive and
corona leakage losses along the transmission lines. And then
transforming the voltage back down in several steps for distribution,
till the customer sees it as 120/240V. And you PAY FOR every bit of
that inefficiency as part of the power bill.


I have a machine at work with a 5Kva transformer to turn 480 into 120v to run an assembly
station. I'm used to seeing tranformers run hot but this thing, running only a small plc
rack and a pc with monitor is doing 68C at this time of the year. It runs a torque gun
also but I'm speaking of idle temperature with the gun not in use.

Input voltage is right, output correct. Ammeter was at home so I didn't get current
values but, visually, there isn't that much load based on what is in the cabinet.

68C seems a bit outside of normal. Comments?

Thanks,

Wes

--
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well
please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the
consequences." -- PJ O'Rourke

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:


And for those who post and read using Google, there is a *long*
fuse (often several hours) between a posting being made and it showing
up on the Google newsreader -- even though it fairly quickly makes its
way out to the rest of the world, and often followups are seen before
your own post.

This has resulted in people re-trying multiple times because
they thought that their articles had just vanished.


I'm using forte's feed which Easynews supplies. Lately, it takes an hour for posts to
shop up at my end and google seems to get it in a few minutes. I miss supernews.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

spaco writes:

Last night I posted a caution about using overpriced electric heaters
to heat the shop. It never appeared. Where did it go? Can someone
take negative posts off the NG? If so, why do they allow posts
that "dis" Harbor Freight or those that tell horror stories about
tools, etc.?

There are mechanisms to "cancel" messages.

Some cancel spam. Some are abusive and cancle messages for spite.

Each NNTP provider makes decisions about what to do with them.

On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 03:46:07 -0500, the infamous Wes
scrawled the following:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:


And for those who post and read using Google, there is a *long*
fuse (often several hours) between a posting being made and it showing
up on the Google newsreader -- even though it fairly quickly makes its
way out to the rest of the world, and often followups are seen before
your own post.

This has resulted in people re-trying multiple times because
they thought that their articles had just vanished.


I'm using forte's feed which Easynews supplies. Lately, it takes an hour for posts to
shop up at my end and google seems to get it in a few minutes. I miss supernews.

I'm using APN, too, but haven't noticed any delays. I just checked
this morning posts and the last one I made was 27 minutes ago and it
was already showing when I checked it just now. I got really mad at
the delays and busy servers at Teranews so I pay for Forte's service.
I'm really happy and $3/mo isn't bad at all for excellent service. I
got 3 more months free when I upgraded to Agent v5.

--
Even with the best of maps and instruments,
we can never fully chart our journeys.
-- Gail Pool

On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 03:43:22 -0500, Wes wrote:

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

Then you have transformer losses at several points as you boost the
voltage up for long distance transmission, and all the resistive and
corona leakage losses along the transmission lines. And then
transforming the voltage back down in several steps for distribution,
till the customer sees it as 120/240V. And you PAY FOR every bit of
that inefficiency as part of the power bill.


I have a machine at work with a 5Kva transformer to turn 480 into 120v to run an assembly
station. I'm used to seeing tranformers run hot but this thing, running only a small plc
rack and a pc with monitor is doing 68C at this time of the year. It runs a torque gun
also but I'm speaking of idle temperature with the gun not in use.

Input voltage is right, output correct. Ammeter was at home so I didn't get current
values but, visually, there isn't that much load based on what is in the cabinet.

68C seems a bit outside of normal. Comments?

Take the amp-clamp and compare it - preferably against an identical
assembly station that isn't running hot.

I'll bet there's a defect in the transformer like shorted turns, or
something funky with the laminations, and the energy being lost is
turned into heat. Look at the output voltages and currents at idle
and under moderate load, they should be balkanced if it's a 120X240V
secondary.

-- Bruce -

On Jan 31, 1:18Â*am, Steve Ackman
wrote:
In ,
on Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:57:50 -0800 (PST), JHanson,

wrote:

snip

Regarding the Amish stove, thier TV advertising characterizes it as a
5,000 BTU heater. Â*That can only mean 5,000 BTUs per hour. Â*Thus, It
is a 171 Watt space heater (5000/29.3) that offers some warm colored
visual effects to create the illusion of heat.

Â* Um... 5000 BTUs/hr = 1464 watts.

--
˜¯˜¯

Ooops, sorry about that.

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

68C seems a bit outside of normal. Comments?

Take the amp-clamp and compare it - preferably against an identical
assembly station that isn't running hot.

I'll bet there's a defect in the transformer like shorted turns, or
something funky with the laminations, and the energy being lost is
turned into heat. Look at the output voltages and currents at idle
and under moderate load, they should be balkanced if it's a 120X240V
secondary.

I'll give it a look Monday. I looked up the transformer and it is rated at 135C rise.
That itself seems nuts. That is a lot of wasted energy.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller