Drywall imported from China during the homebuilding boom years of 2004 and
2005 was made with waste materials from scrubbers on coal-fired power
plants.

Those materials leak into the air as gases and combine with the moisture on
an air conditioning coil to create sulfuric acid, which appears to be
dissolving solder joints and copper tubing - creating leaks, blackening the
coils and even causing the system to fail.

http://www.news-press.com/article/20.../81220026/1076

Best Regards
Tom.

On Dec 22, 7:50*pm, "Azotic" wrote:
Drywall imported from China during the homebuilding boom years of 2004 and
2005 was made with waste materials from scrubbers on coal-fired power
plants.

Those materials leak into the air as gases and combine with the moisture on
an air conditioning coil to create sulfuric acid, which appears to be
dissolving solder joints and copper tubing - creating leaks, blackening the
coils and even causing the system to fail.

http://www.news-press.com/article/20.../81220026/1076

Best Regards
Tom.

And let us not forget about long term health effects.

Bush's elimination of consumer protection....the gift that will keep
on giving generation after generation to America.

TMT

On Dec 22, 7:50*pm, "Azotic" wrote:
Drywall imported from China during the homebuilding boom years of 2004 and
2005 was made with waste materials from scrubbers on coal-fired power
plants.

Those materials leak into the air as gases and combine with the moisture on
an air conditioning coil to create sulfuric acid, which appears to be
dissolving solder joints and copper tubing - creating leaks, blackening the
coils and even causing the system to fail.

http://www.news-press.com/article/20.../81220026/1076

Best Regards
Tom.

Think about it...how do we know that the current sheetrock doesn't
have the same problem?

If lead is still in toys, then this garbage is still in the sheetrock.

TMT

Azotic writes:

Those materials leak into the air as gases and combine with the
moisture on an air conditioning coil to create sulfuric acid, which
appears to be dissolving solder joints and copper tubing - creating
leaks, blackening the coils and even causing the system to fail.

Sounds like somebody trying to scapegoat the furriners. This problem has
been due to the AC manufacturers and long predates any Chinese imports:

http://www.google.com/search?q=evapo...cary+corrosion

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
snip-----

Think about it...how do we know that the current sheetrock doesn't
have the same problem?

You don't. It's common practice to harvest gypsum from bag houses from
coal fired power plants, even here in the good ol' USA. It is used by the
drywall industry to make wallboard. There are other sources, much of it
occurring in nature.

One thing to consider---sulfuric acid does NOT dissolve copper. It is
commonly used as a pickle for copper, attacking *only* copper oxide.
There should be no free sulfur compounds present to create sulfuric
acid---it is bound with the limestone that is used to neutralize sulfur
dioxide, making gypsum in the process.

Harold

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
.. .

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
snip-----

Think about it...how do we know that the current sheetrock doesn't
have the same problem?

You don't. It's common practice to harvest gypsum from bag houses from
coal fired power plants, even here in the good ol' USA. It is used by
the drywall industry to make wallboard. There are other sources, much of
it occurring in nature.

One thing to consider---sulfuric acid does NOT dissolve copper. It is
commonly used as a pickle for copper, attacking *only* copper oxide. There
should be no free sulfur compounds present to create sulfuric acid---it is
bound with the limestone that is used to neutralize sulfur dioxide, making
gypsum in the process.

Harold

You forget this drywall came from china, known for thier high standards of
quality and unique cost cutting solutions. Seems the chinese have found
a way make low cost gypsum by eliminating all those unnessary and costly
steps others use. As i recall the chinese also like to add some secrete
ingrediants
on occasion as they recently did with baby formula they exported.

"It is the drywall, and from what I gather, it is causing a problem with
copper and specifically air conditioning units," said Dawn Harris-Young,
spokeswoman from the EPA Region 4 in Atlanta.

The Florida Health Department is handling the issue and keeping the EPA
apprised, she said.

Just gonna have to wait for a lab analysis to determine what that drywall
realy contains.

Best Regards
Tom.

"Azotic" wrote in message
...

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
.. .

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
snip-----

Think about it...how do we know that the current sheetrock doesn't
have the same problem?

You don't. It's common practice to harvest gypsum from bag houses from
coal fired power plants, even here in the good ol' USA. It is used by
the drywall industry to make wallboard. There are other sources, much of
it occurring in nature.

One thing to consider---sulfuric acid does NOT dissolve copper. It is
commonly used as a pickle for copper, attacking *only* copper oxide.
There should be no free sulfur compounds present to create sulfuric
acid---it is bound with the limestone that is used to neutralize sulfur
dioxide, making gypsum in the process.

Harold

You forget this drywall came from china, known for thier high standards of
quality and unique cost cutting solutions. Seems the chinese have found
a way make low cost gypsum by eliminating all those unnessary and costly
steps others use. As i recall the chinese also like to add some secrete
ingrediants
on occasion as they recently did with baby formula they exported.

"It is the drywall, and from what I gather, it is causing a problem with
copper and specifically air conditioning units," said Dawn Harris-Young,
spokeswoman from the EPA Region 4 in Atlanta.

The Florida Health Department is handling the issue and keeping the EPA
apprised, she said.

Just gonna have to wait for a lab analysis to determine what that drywall
realy contains.

Best Regards
Tom.

I don't (and wouldn't) doubt the possibility of other contaminants, Tom. I
think we've seen ample evidence of that already by the other products that
have proven to be troublesome---just trying to shed some light on the idea
that it is common practice for drywall manufacturers to use the salvaged
gypsum from that source. A workman was killed here recently when a huge
piece came off one of the scrubbers and hit him. They were salvaging the
gypsum when it happened.

I wonder, how safe are we, even with board made in the US? It seems to me
that many corporations have placed a higher priority on profit than anything
else. At this point in time, nothing surprises me.

Harold

It seems the Chinese make many different levels of "quality". Much is
junk and some is actually stuff that meets or exceeds standards as set
by the country to which it is to be exported too. I remember that in
those years there were shortages of alot of building materials, as the
construction boom, and the recovery from several large hurricanes was
ongoing at the time. So a lot of this was likely overlooked in the
interest of expediting contracts and repairs.

AsianDoll

Since its my school semester break I have been using my free time
playing games like a href=http://www.gamestotal.com http://www.gamestotal.com
/a a href=http://uc.gamestotal.com http://uc.gamestotal.com /a
a href=http://gc.gamestotal.com http://gc.gamestotal.com /a a
href=http://3700ad.gamestotal.com http://3700ad.gamestotal.com /a
a href=http://manga.gamestotal.com http://manga.gamestotal.com /a

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message news:Ao14l.401

I wonder, how safe are we, even with board made in the US? It seems to
me
that many corporations have placed a higher priority on profit than
anything else. At this point in time, nothing surprises me.

Harold

At least we lawyers that will go after US corporations doing bad things. Its
the
the offshore companies that pose the biggest threat in my opion being out of
reach of our justice system. With globalism being all the rage don't expect
our
government to ban trade with any country. We are all expendable for the sake
of profits. Yes we do live in intresting times when peoples lives are
nothing
more than numbers on P&L statment. Expect to see caps set on wrongfull
death law suits to maintain profits.

Best Regards
Tom.

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 17:50:36 -0800, "Azotic" wrote:

Drywall imported from China during the homebuilding boom years of 2004 and
2005 was made with waste materials from scrubbers on coal-fired power
plants.

Those materials leak into the air as gases and combine with the moisture on
an air conditioning coil to create sulfuric acid, which appears to be
dissolving solder joints and copper tubing - creating leaks, blackening the
coils and even causing the system to fail.

http://www.news-press.com/article/20.../81220026/1076

Best Regards
Tom.


*Sulfur*? That's it? Cardboard gives off sulfur too. And a bunch of it
usually is in dried fruit which you actually eat (and it's enough to
make for quite odiferous emissions out the exhaust-- eat a couple of
pounds of dried apricots and see what happens). No big deal, but I
guess in tough times some folks are working overtime looking for ways
to get out of their commitments.

Gene wrote:

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:54:47 -0600, Richard J Kinch
wrote:

Azotic writes:

Those materials leak into the air as gases and combine with the
moisture on an air conditioning coil to create sulfuric acid, which
appears to be dissolving solder joints and copper tubing - creating
leaks, blackening the coils and even causing the system to fail.

Sounds like somebody trying to scapegoat the furriners. This problem has
been due to the AC manufacturers and long predates any Chinese imports:

http://www.google.com/search?q=evapo...cary+corrosion

That article has NOTHING to do with the sheetrock argument, unless you
equate sheetrock and ants.

In fact, if you re-examine the website, you might see that it is all
about $elling $ervices a$ an expert witne$$. The article really
doesn't make any sense....

I take it you didn't actually read or comprehend the articles referenced
or you would understand that it has nothing to do with ants.

Try this one:
http://www.corrosionlab.com/papers/f...-1999paper.htm

On Dec 23, 3:50*am, wrote:
It seems the Chinese make many different levels of "quality". Much is
junk and some is actually stuff that meets or exceeds standards as set
by the country to which it is to be exported too. ...
AsianDoll

I've seen that in testing incoming components. Poor quality appears to
be a management choice, not a reflection on the workers. Historically
China could match or beat the best of Europe when they wanted to.

On Dec 22, 7:50*pm, "Azotic" wrote:
Drywall imported from China during the homebuilding boom years of 2004 and
2005 was made with waste materials from scrubbers on coal-fired power
plants.

Those materials leak into the air as gases and combine with the moisture on
an air conditioning coil to create sulfuric acid, which appears to be
dissolving solder joints and copper tubing - creating leaks, blackening the
coils and even causing the system to fail.

http://www.news-press.com/article/20.../81220026/1076

Best Regards
Tom.

Has anyone considered the ticking time bombs all those Chinese "UL
listed" products in your home and shop are?

A house fire at night just waiting to happen....

TMT

Azotic wrote:

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
.. .

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
snip-----

Think about it...how do we know that the current sheetrock doesn't
have the same problem?

You don't. It's common practice to harvest gypsum from bag houses from
coal fired power plants, even here in the good ol' USA. It is used by
the drywall industry to make wallboard. There are other sources, much of
it occurring in nature.

One thing to consider---sulfuric acid does NOT dissolve copper. It is
commonly used as a pickle for copper, attacking *only* copper oxide. There
should be no free sulfur compounds present to create sulfuric acid---it is
bound with the limestone that is used to neutralize sulfur dioxide, making
gypsum in the process.

Harold

You forget this drywall came from china, known for thier high standards of
quality and unique cost cutting solutions. Seems the chinese have found
a way make low cost gypsum by eliminating all those unnessary and costly
steps others use. As i recall the chinese also like to add some secrete

HAHAHA. well worded.

Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Dec 23, 3:50?am, wrote:
It seems the Chinese make many different levels of "quality". Much is
junk and some is actually stuff that meets or exceeds standards as set
by the country to which it is to be exported too. ...
AsianDoll

I've seen that in testing incoming components. Poor quality appears to
be a management choice, not a reflection on the workers. Historically
China could match or beat the best of Europe when they wanted to.

any examples of this?

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
snip-----


Think about it...how do we know that the current sheetrock doesn't
have the same problem?


You don't. It's common practice to harvest gypsum from bag houses from
coal fired power plants, even here in the good ol' USA. It is used by the
drywall industry to make wallboard. There are other sources, much of it
occurring in nature.

One thing to consider---sulfuric acid does NOT dissolve copper. It is
commonly used as a pickle for copper, attacking *only* copper oxide.
There should be no free sulfur compounds present to create sulfuric
acid---it is bound with the limestone that is used to neutralize sulfur
dioxide, making gypsum in the process.

Harold



There is a sheetrock plant here in PA that has a long conveyer system (
I think its over half mile) that goes right to the coal generation plant
that averages burning 100 coal cars a day. You always had a little acid
forming wnen sheetrock got wet.

John

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote:
*Sulfur*? That's it? Cardboard gives off sulfur too. And a bunch of it
usually is in dried fruit which you actually eat (and it's enough to
make for quite odiferous emissions out the exhaust-- eat a couple of
pounds of dried apricots and see what happens).

Not the dried apricots I eat. From Turkey, they are, and unsulphered as
well. Get them from the bulk section of the local Fred Meyers (Kroger).
The lack of sulpher allows them to turn dark brown/black, but they still
taste every bit as good as the prettier, chemically treated variety.

Jon

"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...
"Spehro Pefhany" wrote:
*Sulfur*? That's it? Cardboard gives off sulfur too. And a bunch of it
usually is in dried fruit which you actually eat (and it's enough to
make for quite odiferous emissions out the exhaust-- eat a couple of
pounds of dried apricots and see what happens).

Not the dried apricots I eat. From Turkey, they are, and unsulphered as
well. Get them from the bulk section of the local Fred Meyers (Kroger).
The lack of sulpher allows them to turn dark brown/black, but they still
taste every bit as good as the prettier, chemically treated variety.

Jon

And they don't bring on asthma attacks. 45 years after my last problem with
asthma as a kid, eating two or three sulfur-treated dried apricots will
leave me gasping for breath.

--
Ed Huntress

On Dec 23, 4:05*pm, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Jim Wilkins wrote:
...Historically
China could match or beat the best of Europe when they wanted to.
any examples of this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_ceramics

The MiG copies were reputedly very well made, too. Usually curved
aircraft sheet metal has ripples but I didn't see any on the Shenyang
J-2 I had a chance to examine.

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 18:08:53 -0500, the renowned "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...
"Spehro Pefhany" wrote:
*Sulfur*? That's it? Cardboard gives off sulfur too. And a bunch of it
usually is in dried fruit which you actually eat (and it's enough to
make for quite odiferous emissions out the exhaust-- eat a couple of
pounds of dried apricots and see what happens).

Not the dried apricots I eat. From Turkey, they are, and unsulphered as
well. Get them from the bulk section of the local Fred Meyers (Kroger).
The lack of sulpher allows them to turn dark brown/black, but they still
taste every bit as good as the prettier, chemically treated variety.

Jon

And they don't bring on asthma attacks. 45 years after my last problem with
asthma as a kid, eating two or three sulfur-treated dried apricots will
leave me gasping for breath.

Two or three pounds of them and the whole building will be gasping for
breath.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:05:23 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Dec 23, 3:50?am, wrote:
It seems the Chinese make many different levels of "quality". Much is
junk and some is actually stuff that meets or exceeds standards as set
by the country to which it is to be exported too. ...
AsianDoll

I've seen that in testing incoming components. Poor quality appears to
be a management choice, not a reflection on the workers. Historically
China could match or beat the best of Europe when they wanted to.

any examples of this?

Most industrial Chinese lathes over 13" swing

Gunner






"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..."
Maj. Gen. John Sedgewick, killed by a sniper in 1864 at the battle of Spotsylvania

"john" wrote in message
...


Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
snip-----


Think about it...how do we know that the current sheetrock doesn't
have the same problem?


You don't. It's common practice to harvest gypsum from bag houses from
coal fired power plants, even here in the good ol' USA. It is used by
the drywall industry to make wallboard. There are other sources, much of
it occurring in nature.

One thing to consider---sulfuric acid does NOT dissolve copper. It is
commonly used as a pickle for copper, attacking *only* copper oxide.
There should be no free sulfur compounds present to create sulfuric
acid---it is bound with the limestone that is used to neutralize sulfur
dioxide, making gypsum in the process.

Harold

There is a sheetrock plant here in PA that has a long conveyer system ( I
think its over half mile) that goes right to the coal generation plant
that averages burning 100 coal cars a day. You always had a little acid
forming wnen sheetrock got wet.

John





Yes, and I hauled truckloads (many - @22 tons) of "fly ash" from one of
those plants in PA to numerous concrete plants for addition to the
transit-mix, cinder blocks, and paving. Especially to one site in Northern
Virginia where they were building an enormous concrete building -
apartments, offices, and the llike.

Who knows how benign that stuff is?

Flash

This is what i wrote in response to the latest news press article.

Once again the claims of Engel homes is unfounded except for removing
the drywall. Fosters sealant paint has been added to all the surfaces
of a tested home with the drywall in question and did not work. The
odor came back after the smell of the paint went away and certain
metals continued to pit. I don't under stand why the newspress keeps
using Lennar as if they are the only one with a real problem. As far
as i can tell almost all the builders have this problem to a certain
degree and not at small %s. "Scientific testing shows no indication of
any health risks to our homeowners. Lennar has been working with our
homeowners on long-term solutions based on the specific testing of
their homes" Yes certain ASTM and OSHA testing has been conducted but
this is a cumulative issue and not a short term exposure, so no true
heath study has been conducted to date meaning testing for chronic
exposures.

This article is right about not panicking and to work with your
builder, it's just no one has attempted correct type of testing
including corrosion studies to analytically find out what is actually
corroding the specific metals and comparison studies with the affected
drywall and regular US made drywall without the stated issues. Here
are a few terms you should look for and research.

KNAUF
Flue Gas Desulphurization
Pyrophoric Oxidation
OSHA 1008 & 1011 combined modified long term test
NIOSH 7903
Drywall analysis by XRD for Iron Pyrite

One of my friends recently retired from years of driving a cement mixer
truck. he says thay have been importing chinese cement containing something
like 100 times the allowable amount of chromium, and he had a couple of very
bad years due to the poison.

F



Yes, and I hauled truckloads (many - @22 tons) of "fly ash" from one of
those plants in PA to numerous concrete plants for addition to the
transit-mix, cinder blocks, and paving. Especially to one site in Northern
Virginia where they were building an enormous concrete building -
apartments, offices, and the llike.

Who knows how benign that stuff is?

Flash




People worry too much about the wrong things. I would much more be
conserned about where your food is coming from and what is being put
into it. have you noticed lately that almost all the frozen fish is
processed in china. Also have you notices the funny taste in some of
the fish? Also have you noticed that sometimes when you eat grapes from
Chile you get cramps in your extemidies while it doesn't happen with
domesticly grown grapes.

John

"john" wrote in message
...


People worry too much about the wrong things. I would much more be
conserned about where your food is coming from and what is being put into
it. have you noticed lately that almost all the frozen fish is processed
in china. Also have you notices the funny taste in some of the fish?
Also have you noticed that sometimes when you eat grapes from Chile you
get cramps in your extemidies while it doesn't happen with domesticly
grown grapes.

John


WELLINGTON, New Zealand (AP) - A Chinese court has declared bankrupt the
company at the center of a scandal over tainted milk - blamed for killing
six children and sickening almost 300,000 more, one of the company's owners
said Wednesday.

New Zealand's Fonterra Group said that a court in Shijiazhuang, in China's
Hebei province, had issued a bankruptcy order against Sanlu Group Co. in
response to a petition from a creditor.

Fonterra Chairman Henry van der Heyden said the melamine contamination was
"a criminal event," but that Fonterra remained "committed to China."

Fonterra, which controls more than 95 percent of New Zealand's milk supply,
is the country's largest multinational business, its second-biggest foreign
currency earner and accounts for more than 24 percent of the nation's
exports.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...pFmzwD958VM580

Crime does pay in china.

Best Regards
Tom.

On Dec 24, 1:08 pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:05:23 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader

Historically
China could match or beat the best of Europe when they wanted to.

any examples of this?

Most industrial Chinese lathes over 13" swing

Gunner


From my admittedly limited knowledge of machining, Gunner is correct -
the big Kwacheons (sp) at school are superb, so smooth in operation,
quiet, everything works well..
They recently got some new Colchesters - same crappy finish, badly
fitting sheet metal, same mechanical design as the 50 year old ones
they replaced. Only difference was some fancy electronics, they still
had the same annoying "features" they always had.

The $20 4 inch Chinese angle grinder is superb, you will get a year or
two out of it, and if it gets knocked off from the back of your truck,
no big deal. At that price, you have 3 or 4 of em loaded with
different disks - saves time and effort. Ditto with most of the rest
of their power tools, a lot of contractors here are using the Chinese
mitre saws for the same reasons.

And for the rest - these are people who build most of the electronics
in your lounge room. Including the semiconductors in them. And they
don't give a rats arse about supplying data sheets, or selling spares,
unless you want to buy a min. of 100,000 units - they don't need to,
so they don't .They have put men in space, built supersonic jet
fighters, ICBM's and nuclear submarines. And, being pragmatists, and
businessmen, (sorta like republicans, I guess) they will sell you any
level of quality you want.

And if your company in the US wants to screw them down on price to get
a bigger retail profit, well, they will happily oblige by making a
cheaper, crappier product.

(What really annoys me is where a local brand, say, of clothing or
footwear and has a reputation for quality built up over generations
suddenly moves their manufacturing offshore - still the same price,
mind you, but noticeably lower quality. best local example is
"Blundstone" workboots, used to be good for 3 winters till they
started leaking. Now, made in China, I refuse to buy them. May as
well pay a third the price for things that last one year and are
openly Chinese.)

Thought all this would have been blatantly obvious by now.......(yeh,
I know I am ranting, no need to point it out..)

Andrew VK3BFA.

On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 19:22:43 -0800, the infamous "Azotic"
scrawled the following:


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...pFmzwD958VM580

Crime does pay in china.

Please explain your comment, Tom.

--
Women and cats will do as they please,

and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

--Robert A. Heinlein

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 19:22:43 -0800, the infamous "Azotic"
scrawled the following:


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...pFmzwD958VM580

Crime does pay in china.

Please explain your comment, Tom.

--
Women and cats will do as they please,

and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

--Robert A. Heinlein


Its explained in the AP article:
"In theory, those who were physically harmed should get compensation first,"
Xu said. "But our concern right now is that ... the creditor bank or banks
will collude with the local government to make Sanlu's assets go to
compensating themselves first."

Best Regards

Tom.

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 10:59:40 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gene wrote:

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:54:47 -0600, Richard J Kinch
wrote:

Azotic writes:

Those materials leak into the air as gases and combine with the
moisture on an air conditioning coil to create sulfuric acid, which
appears to be dissolving solder joints and copper tubing - creating
leaks, blackening the coils and even causing the system to fail.

Sounds like somebody trying to scapegoat the furriners. This problem has
been due to the AC manufacturers and long predates any Chinese imports:

http://www.google.com/search?q=evapo...cary+corrosion

That article has NOTHING to do with the sheetrock argument, unless you
equate sheetrock and ants.

In fact, if you re-examine the website, you might see that it is all
about $elling $ervices a$ an expert witne$$. The article really
doesn't make any sense....

I take it you didn't actually read or comprehend the articles referenced
or you would understand that it has nothing to do with ants.

Try this one:
http://www.corrosionlab.com/papers/f...-1999paper.htm


You don't find it a bit of a stretch to believe it is really all about
ants inhabiting only those houses built in Florida in 2004 and 2005
out of Chinese sheetrock?

You don't think the testing lab can tell whether or not high
concentrations of sulfur are present? (You might want to re-read your
article on ants and look for the word or scientific notation for
sulfur.)

You don't find it a bit of a stretch to believe that *anybody* might
confuse the two odors.... formic acid and sulfuric acid?

If not, then fine, it was all those pesky ants out of Area 51..... you
win!
--

Forté Agent 5.00 Build 1171

"When a work lifts your spirits and inspires bold and
noble thoughts in you, do not look for any other standard
to judge by: the work is good, the product of a master
craftsman." - Jean de la Bruyere (1645-1696)

Homepage
http://pamandgene.tranquilrefuge.net...shop/index.htm
-----------------
www.Newsgroup-Binaries.com - *Completion*Retention*Speed*
Access your favorite newsgroups from home or on the road
-----------------

wrote:
On Dec 24, 1:08 pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:05:23 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader

Historically
China could match or beat the best of Europe when they wanted to.

any examples of this?

Most industrial Chinese lathes over 13" swing

Gunner


From my admittedly limited knowledge of machining, Gunner is correct -
the big Kwacheons (sp) at school are superb, so smooth in operation,
quiet, everything works well..
They recently got some new Colchesters - same crappy finish, badly
fitting sheet metal, same mechanical design as the 50 year old ones
they replaced. Only difference was some fancy electronics, they still
had the same annoying "features" they always had.

Interesting. I don't deal with any such machines.

The $20 4 inch Chinese angle grinder is superb, you will get a year or
two out of it, and if it gets knocked off from the back of your truck,
no big deal. At that price, you have 3 or 4 of em loaded with
different disks - saves time and effort. Ditto with most of the rest
of their power tools, a lot of contractors here are using the Chinese
mitre saws for the same reasons.

are they better, or just cheap and diposable? Another recent thread here
mentioned angle grinders with slugs of metal in place of bearings.

And for the rest - these are people who build most of the electronics
in your lounge room. Including the semiconductors in them. And they

not mine, for other people that prefer the 100% off-shore labor and
diposable lifestyle, until their job is finally obsolete, I'm sure it's
all chinese stuff.

don't give a rats arse about supplying data sheets, or selling spares,
unless you want to buy a min. of 100,000 units - they don't need to,
so they don't .They have put men in space, built supersonic jet

They put more men into mining disasters and kids in collapsed schools
than into space.

fighters, ICBM's and nuclear submarines. And, being pragmatists, and
businessmen, (sorta like republicans, I guess) they will sell you any
level of quality you want.

And if your company in the US wants to screw them down on price to get
a bigger retail profit, well, they will happily oblige by making a
cheaper, crappier product.

This here is the issue I have- the junk. I can't think of anything you get
that's made in china because it's the "best" or "better" than other
sources.

It doesn't even have to do with china itself. Most stuff you get these
days is watered down garbage.

I was recently looking for US made copper clad stainless steel pots.
Apparently, nobody makes one that's not paper thin or has all the spot
weld well marks visible. I don't think any of the Revere or ekco stuff is
even made here anymore, or anywhere close to how they were before.

On Dec 28, 4:45 pm, Cydrome Leader wrote:
wrote:
On Dec 24, 1:08 pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:05:23 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader

You raise some interesting points, to try to respond to them......

Interesting. I don't deal with any such machines.

Would you deal with industrial size machinery anyway? - I admit I
don't, but thats what they have at my trade school, and they are
getting more of them. Conversations with the apprentices in my group
indicate they cant wait to get rid of the crappy worn out English/
Australian /American junk where they work and get nice new Chinese
ones. (As a time honoured tradition, the apprentices get the crappy
machines...for obvious reasons)

The $20 4 inch Chinese angle grinder is superb, you will get a year or
two out of it, and if it gets knocked off from the back of your truck,
no big deal. At that price, you have 3 or 4 of em loaded with
different disks - saves time and effort. Ditto with most of the rest
of their power tools, a lot of contractors here are using the Chinese
mitre saws for the same reasons.

are they better, or just cheap and diposable? Another recent thread here
mentioned angle grinders with slugs of metal in place of bearings.

Cheap and disposable - do you need anything else?

And for the rest - these are people who build most of the electronics
in your lounge room. Including the semiconductors in them. And they

not mine, for other people that prefer the 100% off-shore labor and
diposable lifestyle, until their job is finally obsolete, I'm sure it's
all chinese stuff.

How do you know? - ever opened it up, had a look. And unless its
1970's vintage, a LOT of it will be Chinese sourced. And I can only
assume you dont have a $40 DVD player...

don't give a rats arse about supplying data sheets, or selling spares,
unless you want to buy a min. of 100,000 units - they don't need to,
so they don't .They have put men in space, built supersonic jet

They put more men into mining disasters and kids in collapsed schools
than into space.

So? - whats that got to do with high end electronics and
manufacturing?

fighters, ICBM's and nuclear submarines. And, being pragmatists, and
businessmen, (sorta like republicans, I guess) they will sell you any
level of quality you want.

And if your company in the US wants to screw them down on price to get
a bigger retail profit, well, they will happily oblige by making a
cheaper, crappier product.

This here is the issue I have- the junk. I can't think of anything you get
that's made in china because it's the "best" or "better" than other
sources.

Yep, they will sell us junk if we want it.We don't see the high end
stuff.And most of us couldn't afford it anyway. And, due to the weirdo
capitalist system we mutually run, people will buy on price rather
than quality - its a race to the bottom, but hey - thats "market
forces"....

It doesn't even have to do with china itself. Most stuff you get these
days is watered down garbage.

I was recently looking for US made copper clad stainless steel pots.
Apparently, nobody makes one that's not paper thin or has all the spot
weld well marks visible. I don't think any of the Revere or ekco stuff is
even made here anymore, or anywhere close to how they were before.

Are you REALLY surprised? - you act like a third world customer, you
get third world quality...see above point..

Andrew VK3BFA..

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 05:45:49 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:05:23 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader

Historically
China could match or beat the best of Europe when they wanted to.

any examples of this?

Most industrial Chinese lathes over 13" swing

Gunner


From my admittedly limited knowledge of machining, Gunner is correct -
the big Kwacheons (sp) at school are superb, so smooth in operation,
quiet, everything works well..
They recently got some new Colchesters - same crappy finish, badly
fitting sheet metal, same mechanical design as the 50 year old ones
they replaced. Only difference was some fancy electronics, they still
had the same annoying "features" they always had.

Interesting. I don't deal with any such machines.

I do, daily. Some of the Polish lathes and East
German/Bulgarian/Romanian are prettty good too. Some.

The $20 4 inch Chinese angle grinder is superb, you will get a year or
two out of it, and if it gets knocked off from the back of your truck,
no big deal. At that price, you have 3 or 4 of em loaded with
different disks - saves time and effort. Ditto with most of the rest
of their power tools, a lot of contractors here are using the Chinese
mitre saws for the same reasons.

are they better, or just cheap and diposable? Another recent thread here
mentioned angle grinders with slugs of metal in place of bearings.

Better than what? Are they a better value than a Metabo? If you like
changing disks with great regularity, no they are not better. If you
like to keep 3 on hand, one with a cup brush, one with a gross grinder
and one with a flap wheel on the bench whenever welding..yes, they are
"better" because they are affordable and last a reasonable amount of
time.

And for the rest - these are people who build most of the electronics
in your lounge room. Including the semiconductors in them. And they

not mine, for other people that prefer the 100% off-shore labor and
diposable lifestyle, until their job is finally obsolete, I'm sure it's
all chinese stuff.

don't give a rats arse about supplying data sheets, or selling spares,
unless you want to buy a min. of 100,000 units - they don't need to,
so they don't .They have put men in space, built supersonic jet

They put more men into mining disasters and kids in collapsed schools
than into space.

True indeed. So did the US in parts of its history. Mining..even through
today.

fighters, ICBM's and nuclear submarines. And, being pragmatists, and
businessmen, (sorta like republicans, I guess) they will sell you any
level of quality you want.

And if your company in the US wants to screw them down on price to get
a bigger retail profit, well, they will happily oblige by making a
cheaper, crappier product.

This here is the issue I have- the junk. I can't think of anything you get
that's made in china because it's the "best" or "better" than other
sources.


Somethings you cant get anymore unless its Chinese, or get a mortage on
your first born child.

Gunner

"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please.
The problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group, they themselves are no longer sure of their goals.
They are a collection of wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some want a Socialist, secular-humanist state,
others the repeal of the Second Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting rights for trees, fish,
coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and complete subservience to the government nanny state,
others want a culture that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political correctness.
I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr

On Dec 28, 3:49*am, wrote:
...
Yep, they will sell us junk if we want it.We don't see the high end
stuff.And most of us couldn't afford it anyway. And, due to the weirdo
capitalist system we mutually run, people will buy on price rather
than quality - its a race to the bottom, but hey - thats "market
forces"....

Andrew VK3BFA..

I saw Chinese OEM components for medical equipment etc. at incoming
inspection. Quality was whatever the vendor and purchaser agreed on,
in these instances quite high. Then the parts were assembled and
tested here by hard-working and careful immigrants, many of them
Haitian and Cambodian refugees. The engineers and techs were mostly
male Europeans like me, or Indian. I think that's due to self-
selection or military service, the field is open to anyone. The
broadly multinational work force was typical of electronics in New
England. When I worked for a defense contractor my boss was Chinese,
his was ethnic Russian.

It surprises me that people from all over the world are so alike when
removed from their culture, even if their ancestors were isolated for
10,000 years.

BUT...
"The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope."
- Karl Marx

wrote:
On Dec 28, 4:45 pm, Cydrome Leader wrote:
wrote:
On Dec 24, 1:08 pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:05:23 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader

You raise some interesting points, to try to respond to them......

Interesting. I don't deal with any such machines.

Would you deal with industrial size machinery anyway? - I admit I
don't, but thats what they have at my trade school, and they are
getting more of them. Conversations with the apprentices in my group
indicate they cant wait to get rid of the crappy worn out English/
Australian /American junk where they work and get nice new Chinese
ones. (As a time honoured tradition, the apprentices get the crappy
machines...for obvious reasons)

The $20 4 inch Chinese angle grinder is superb, you will get a year or
two out of it, and if it gets knocked off from the back of your truck,
no big deal. At that price, you have 3 or 4 of em loaded with
different disks - saves time and effort. Ditto with most of the rest
of their power tools, a lot of contractors here are using the Chinese
mitre saws for the same reasons.

are they better, or just cheap and diposable? Another recent thread here
mentioned angle grinders with slugs of metal in place of bearings.

Cheap and disposable - do you need anything else?

I like not throwing all my money away. what's next, disposable hammers,
srewdrivers and 4 use ladders? BTW, chinese ladders have made in to the
US. Werner is no longer all made in the USA or assembled in mexico. Beware
of what you get.

Hell, I like my clothing to fall apart after 3 washes too. Disposable is
great. long life bulbs? scratch that, I like using photographic bulbs
rated 3-4 hours wherever I can. Just throw them away and get new ones.

Concrete? forget that, use plaster, it washes away, so you can replace it
nonstop.

And for the rest - these are people who build most of the electronics
in your lounge room. Including the semiconductors in them. And they

not mine, for other people that prefer the 100% off-shore labor and
diposable lifestyle, until their job is finally obsolete, I'm sure it's
all chinese stuff.

How do you know? - ever opened it up, had a look. And unless its
1970's vintage, a LOT of it will be Chinese sourced. And I can only
assume you dont have a $40 DVD player...

It's actually a 1998 DVD player from sony, it was made in japan. TV is
assembled in mexico. The inside seems to be a mix of US and japanese
parts. The last of the at the time "large" CRT TVs were all assembled in
mexico. The unions tried to throw down with Zenith, Zenith said **** you,
and that was that. All other makers were there already or followed.

Speaker are all from the 90s and made here. Amp is made in the USA in the
1990s, even the electrolytics in are from here. If it blows up, great,
it's made to be repaired, not thrown away.

that stuff lives in a rack from CPI, made in the USA. TV sits on a stand
made in canada. I'm guessing slaves didn't made either of those.

Here's some stuff in computer room.

- computer, HP, assembled in USA, components no doubt from china
- tables, IAC, made in USA
- chair, Steelcase, made in USA
- relay rack, CPI, made in USA
- shelves, CPI and DAMAC, made in USA
- speaker, MK, made in USA (not the chinese **** before they folded)
- amp, ATI, made in USA
- light bulbs, GE, made in USA, fixture probably mexico, same for ballast.
- keyboard, Unicomp, made in USA
- trackball, forgot brand, made in USA and recently.
- monitor, Eizo, made in japan
- last monitor, Hitachi, made in UK in 1996 (weird)
- KVM, Oulook Apex, made in USA
- power conditioner, Oneac, made in USA, transformer inside, made in USA

Is it all made here, no, but a reasonable effort was made to support
manufacturing here in the USA. It's also nice that the quality is high on
lots of these products, so I don't need to throw them away ever 6 months
because they wore out. You have to be rich to buy all your stuff back over
and over again, hell why not just lease everything from the bank of china
instead?

don't give a rats arse about supplying data sheets, or selling spares,
unless you want to buy a min. of 100,000 units - they don't need to,
so they don't .They have put men in space, built supersonic jet

They put more men into mining disasters and kids in collapsed schools
than into space.

So? - whats that got to do with high end electronics and
manufacturing?

It means you're dealing with people who don't care about quality or
safety. Safety is a form of quality for people. If your people are not
important, I can't imagine how important the products you make are.

you really think that people who can't make building that can hold their
own weight care about the quality of export products?

fighters, ICBM's and nuclear submarines. And, being pragmatists, and
businessmen, (sorta like republicans, I guess) they will sell you any
level of quality you want.

And if your company in the US wants to screw them down on price to get
a bigger retail profit, well, they will happily oblige by making a
cheaper, crappier product.

This here is the issue I have- the junk. I can't think of anything you get
that's made in china because it's the "best" or "better" than other
sources.

Yep, they will sell us junk if we want it.We don't see the high end
stuff.And most of us couldn't afford it anyway. And, due to the weirdo
capitalist system we mutually run, people will buy on price rather
than quality - its a race to the bottom, but hey - thats "market
forces"....

judging from $20 angle grinders with fake bearings, you (or whoever)seem
to want junk, and nothing else. I suggest leasing everything if that't the
case.

On Dec 29, 8:37 am, Cydrome Leader wrote:
wrote:
On Dec 28, 4:45 pm, Cydrome Leader wrote:
wrote:
On Dec 24, 1:08 pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:05:23 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader

OK, I think we are in broad agreement, just arguing about detail
And I agree whole heartedly with your sentiments re buying (and
keeping jobs) local, but the choice is becoming increasingly difficult
to make.

Disposable electronics? - I used to have a nice small business fixing
things, my remaining customers are "old timers" like myself who still
have the mindset that something should, with maintenance, last 20
years,,,,,totally out of sync with modern times - it will be
interesting in the years ahead as the generation that is used to "junk
and replace" equipment has to cope with hard times....fine if your in
the loop, have an income to support it, but.......



The $20 4 inch Chinese angle grinder is superb, you will get a year or
two out of it, and if it gets knocked off from the back of your truck,
no big deal. At that price, you have 3 or 4 of em loaded with
different disks - saves time and effort. Ditto with most of the rest
of their power tools, a lot of contractors here are using the Chinese
mitre saws for the same reasons.

are they better, or just cheap and diposable? Another recent thread here
mentioned angle grinders with slugs of metal in place of bearings.

Yep, cheap and disposable, and built with sufficient accuracy to be
able to do the job. Was speaking with the carpenters who built the
back deck on my house - I was surprised they were using a Chinese
mitre saw rather than a Hitachi, Dewalt, etc. They explained that the
Chinese one was a third the price, lasted as long, and it didn't hurt
so much if the apprentice wrecked it or it got stolen from the back of
the truck. They do use Dewalt cordless drills, at 5 times the price of
the Chinese ones, because, in a professional, all day application,
they are superb and WORTH THE MONEY. And when the Chinese start
putting decent batteries in theirs, then the situation will change
rapidly, no doubt.



Hell, I like my clothing to fall apart after 3 washes too. Disposable is
great. long life bulbs? scratch that, I like using photographic bulbs
rated 3-4 hours wherever I can. Just throw them away and get new ones.

Agreed, especially with boots - hate breaking them in, hate only
getting a year out of them. But I don't have a choice, the local brand
I used to buy has moved to China, while I was happy to pay twice the
price of the Chinese ones, and so were a LOT of other people, the
company management was more interested in "return to investors" and
their own fat bonuses.
Our last factory that made light bulbs closed a few years ago - bloody
hell, what sort of a so called advanced western country cant even make
its own light bulbs? - something is grossly wrong/totally mad here....


not mine, for other people that prefer the 100% off-shore labor and
diposable lifestyle, until their job is finally obsolete, I'm sure it's
all chinese stuff.




Speaker are all from the 90s and made here. Amp is made in the USA in the
1990s, even the electrolytics in are from here. If it blows up, great,
it's made to be repaired, not thrown away.

So, getting on to 20 years old - and are you REALLY sure where the
drivers in your speakers were made?



Is it all made here, no, but a reasonable effort was made to support
manufacturing here in the USA. It's also nice that the quality is high on
lots of these products, so I don't need to throw them away ever 6 months
because they wore out. You have to be rich to buy all your stuff back over
and over again, hell why not just lease everything from the bank of china
instead?

No disagreement there - but again, its all getting old, could you
replace it with good quality localally made gear?


They put more men into mining disasters and kids in collapsed schools
than into space.

So? - whats that got to do with high end electronics and
manufacturing?

It means you're dealing with people who don't care about quality or
safety. Safety is a form of quality for people. If your people are not
important, I can't imagine how important the products you make are.

Is this sorta like the banking system? - may not kill people, but do a
lot of damage - is that socially responsible too....

you really think that people who can't make building that can hold their
own weight care about the quality of export products?

Nope, why should they - its called "having a job", and if the silly
Westerners will buy crap, so be it.

judging from $20 angle grinders with fake bearings, you (or whoever)seem
to want junk, and nothing else. I suggest leasing everything if that't the
case.

Never had a cheap angle grinder with fake bearings - why would they
bother, they have modern hi-tech bearing factories - maybe a retailer
screwed them down so much they compromised?. And, if it stuffs up, the
retailer replaces/refunds it, and writes the cost off against tax.
They get crushed and thrown in the dump bin for landfill. Same with
even contemporary Japanese electronics.

You mentioned a 1998 Sony CD player, know them well. Surprised it
hasn't needed a new laser block by now, Sony are OK as the replacement
blocks are relatively cheap, and the quality of the rest of the unit
makes it worthwhile to do it. My Philips CD player died after 15
years, searched through the used gear shops till I found a Sony that
used a KSS210 laser block. Couldn't buy a new CD player, (except as
part of a "system") - every salesman tried to get me to buy a DVD
player, as it also plays CDs. (High end "golden ears" audiophile stuff
excepted - have trouble with the bull**** factor)

My wife bought a Yaesu FT60r hand held dual band amateur transceiver -
I looked at the box, it was made in China. Was surprised, but
shouldn't have been.

Regards,

Andrew VK3BFA.

wrote:
On Dec 29, 8:37 am, Cydrome Leader wrote:
wrote:
On Dec 28, 4:45 pm, Cydrome Leader wrote:
wrote:
On Dec 24, 1:08 pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:05:23 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader

OK, I think we are in broad agreement, just arguing about detail
And I agree whole heartedly with your sentiments re buying (and
keeping jobs) local, but the choice is becoming increasingly difficult
to make.

It is harder, but that's not a reason to just give up. If you really want
to give up, just denounce citizenship and defect to some ******** and
become servant to a dictator. Then all choices are made for you already.

Disposable electronics? - I used to have a nice small business fixing
things, my remaining customers are "old timers" like myself who still
have the mindset that something should, with maintenance, last 20
years,,,,,totally out of sync with modern times - it will be
interesting in the years ahead as the generation that is used to "junk
and replace" equipment has to cope with hard times....fine if your in
the loop, have an income to support it, but.......

I worked at a repair shop. It's obviously closed now. When VCRs cost
$2000 or even a low $500, and there was a parts network, they were worth
fixing.

Even if labor was free, there's no way to get any parts for a $30 DVD
player these days. These tend to get junked because of the remotes getting
lost or broken. It's very wasteful, but that's how people seem to think
these days.

The $20 4 inch Chinese angle grinder is superb, you will get a year or
two out of it, and if it gets knocked off from the back of your truck,
no big deal. At that price, you have 3 or 4 of em loaded with
different disks - saves time and effort. Ditto with most of the rest
of their power tools, a lot of contractors here are using the Chinese
mitre saws for the same reasons.

are they better, or just cheap and diposable? Another recent thread here
mentioned angle grinders with slugs of metal in place of bearings.

Yep, cheap and disposable, and built with sufficient accuracy to be
able to do the job. Was speaking with the carpenters who built the
back deck on my house - I was surprised they were using a Chinese
mitre saw rather than a Hitachi, Dewalt, etc. They explained that the
Chinese one was a third the price, lasted as long, and it didn't hurt

so chinese mitre saws are almost there. That's a plus.

so much if the apprentice wrecked it or it got stolen from the back of
the truck. They do use Dewalt cordless drills, at 5 times the price of
the Chinese ones, because, in a professional, all day application,
they are superb and WORTH THE MONEY. And when the Chinese start
putting decent batteries in theirs, then the situation will change
rapidly, no doubt.

I've seen lots of battery packs (for all sorts of devices) where they try
to stress "cells made in japan". I'm not sure if this is to hint quality
or what the deal is.

Hell, I like my clothing to fall apart after 3 washes too. Disposable is
great. long life bulbs? scratch that, I like using photographic bulbs
rated 3-4 hours wherever I can. Just throw them away and get new ones.

Agreed, especially with boots - hate breaking them in, hate only
getting a year out of them. But I don't have a choice, the local brand
I used to buy has moved to China, while I was happy to pay twice the
price of the Chinese ones, and so were a LOT of other people, the
company management was more interested in "return to investors" and
their own fat bonuses.
Our last factory that made light bulbs closed a few years ago - bloody
hell, what sort of a so called advanced western country cant even make
its own light bulbs? - something is grossly wrong/totally mad here....

There are still light bulb plants in the US. I'm going to try to visit it
if I'm ever in the area.

Speaker are all from the 90s and made here. Amp is made in the USA in the
1990s, even the electrolytics in are from here. If it blows up, great,
it's made to be repaired, not thrown away.

So, getting on to 20 years old - and are you REALLY sure where the
drivers in your speakers were made?

This was brought up when MK (Miller & Kriesel Sound) went out of business.
Here's what happened.
They got stupid and though they could offshore the cabinets, and possibly
rest of the speakers to china, and QC them in the US.

that didn't work, the market was flooded with pirate speakers, all of
which sucked, their yields of legit speakers were close to nothing and
they folded, as they deserved for even trying that.

The actual drivers are alleged to be from denmark or sweden- I don't
recall off hand, but they're still in business.

Their stuff wasn't cheap either (but wasn't nonsense "audiophile" priced).
They obviously screwed up somewhere to even try that in the first place.

Is it all made here, no, but a reasonable effort was made to support
manufacturing here in the USA. It's also nice that the quality is high on
lots of these products, so I don't need to throw them away ever 6 months
because they wore out. You have to be rich to buy all your stuff back over
and over again, hell why not just lease everything from the bank of china
instead?

No disagreement there - but again, its all getting old, could you
replace it with good quality localally made gear?

the majority, yes. furniture/cabinet/tables aren't too hard to get from
here, although there is lots of imported stuff now.

They put more men into mining disasters and kids in collapsed schools
than into space.

So? - whats that got to do with high end electronics and
manufacturing?

It means you're dealing with people who don't care about quality or
safety. Safety is a form of quality for people. If your people are not
important, I can't imagine how important the products you make are.

Is this sorta like the banking system? - may not kill people, but do a
lot of damage - is that socially responsible too....

the banking people should be stoned in the streets. It might make people
think twice about screwing around with lots of money that's not theirs.

you really think that people who can't make building that can hold their
own weight care about the quality of export products?

Nope, why should they - its called "having a job", and if the silly
Westerners will buy crap, so be it.

That's part of the problem - westeners seem to love crap these days.

You mentioned a 1998 Sony CD player, know them well. Surprised it
hasn't needed a new laser block by now, Sony are OK as the replacement
blocks are relatively cheap, and the quality of the rest of the unit
makes it worthwhile to do it. My Philips CD player died after 15

It's a DVD player, and there weren't many brands to pick from around then.
The laser will eventually burn out as they all do. This model claims to
have two lasers, one for the CD player feature which I never use.

The whole surround sound from that time was pretty goofy- separate
decoders were required and strange things like 6 channel amps were for
sale. Then people realized that powered subwoofers don't need the 6th
channel in an amp anyways. So the DVD player actually has a built in
decoder with 5+1 audio out, but there's no way to control the volume, and
nobody seemed to have ever make 6 channel preamps. At that point you end
up with a separate decoder/preamp. The only plus of one of those (Technics
made one or two models) is that you can then switch from other analog
inputs.