So I'm doing my regular winter maintenance on the rolling stock. Check
anti-freeze, get the cold weather windshield washer fluid in, etc. We have
a stretch of cold for here weather coming up----mid teens to 20's----and it
got me motivated.

Part of the regimen has always been to toss in a jug of fuel system water
remover/anti-freeze. HEET or whatever is on sale.
Recently the powers that be mandated that we run a gas/ethanol blend year
round. Makes the corn farmers happy I guess. If I'm running 10% ethanol,
the fuel system anti-freeze is redundant--correct? AFAIK all the stuff is
is ethanol? Or is there something here that I'm not seeing?

Bill

On Dec 12, 3:23*pm, "Bill Marrs" wrote:
So I'm doing my regular winter maintenance on the rolling stock. *Check
*anti-freeze, get the cold weather windshield washer fluid in, etc. *We have
*a stretch of cold for here weather coming up----mid teens to 20's----and it
got me motivated.

Part of the regimen has always been to toss in a jug of fuel system water
remover/anti-freeze. HEET or whatever is on sale.
Recently the powers that be mandated that we run a *gas/ethanol blend year
round. *Makes the corn farmers happy I guess. * If I'm running 10% ethanol,
the fuel system anti-freeze is redundant--correct? *AFAIK all the stuff is
is ethanol? *Or is there something here that I'm not seeing?

Bill

I think its still a good idea, the fuel anti-freeze is typically
methanol or isopropyl alcohol, which will get any water out better
than ethanol will.

Being topped off (full tank) before a large swing down in temps is
always the best preventative measure.


Dave

"Bill Marrs" wrote:

Part of the regimen has always been to toss in a jug of fuel system water
remover/anti-freeze. HEET or whatever is on sale.
Recently the powers that be mandated that we run a gas/ethanol blend year
round. Makes the corn farmers happy I guess. If I'm running 10% ethanol,
the fuel system anti-freeze is redundant--correct? AFAIK all the stuff is
is ethanol? Or is there something here that I'm not seeing?

Theoretically the alky is going to pick up water but for some reason gasohol can't be
transported over pipelines and the alky is introduced nearer the point of use.

Someone told me that pipelines often pick up water and the alky sucks it up but I've never
tracked it down to understand if this is bs or truth. A quick google shows that water
often exists in pipelines but I didn't find the reason why.

I toss a can in from time to time, generally the isopropyl for just in case reasons but
I've also gone a year or so skipping it. 45 Latitude Michigan.

If your vehical is flex fuel, no worries at all.

Wes

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 20:23:11 GMT, "Bill Marrs"
wrote:

So I'm doing my regular winter maintenance on the rolling stock. Check
anti-freeze, get the cold weather windshield washer fluid in, etc. We have
a stretch of cold for here weather coming up----mid teens to 20's----and it
got me motivated.

Part of the regimen has always been to toss in a jug of fuel system water
remover/anti-freeze. HEET or whatever is on sale.
Recently the powers that be mandated that we run a gas/ethanol blend year
round. Makes the corn farmers happy I guess. If I'm running 10% ethanol,
the fuel system anti-freeze is redundant--correct? AFAIK all the stuff is
is ethanol? Or is there something here that I'm not seeing?

Bill

I don't know, but the gas-line anti-freeze stuff we get here is said
to be Methyl Hydrate. Is that Ethanol?

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

Wes writes:


Someone told me that pipelines often pick up water and the alky sucks it up but I've never
tracked it down to understand if this is bs or truth. A quick google shows that water
often exists in pipelines but I didn't find the reason why.

Some of the water leaks into the tanks. They are really hollow cylinders
with a floating plug that seals on the edges. There's also now a roof
like an umbrella. Before they were required, rain/snow would fill the
space above the floating roof.

Some of it was came from the refinery; crude has water in it.

The SOP is the gasoline/Diesel sits in a tank for X days, and the water settles
out. Then the operator manually opens the bottom-most valve, the water draw,
and observes the water exiting. He stops when he sees products.

The alcohol is added when the gasoline is loaded into trucks; it's not
carried by the pipeline at all. Of course, the station's underground tanks
may well leak, and there's always condensation...

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

In article ,
Brian Lawson wrote:

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 20:23:11 GMT, "Bill Marrs"
wrote:

So I'm doing my regular winter maintenance on the rolling stock. Check
anti-freeze, get the cold weather windshield washer fluid in, etc. We have
a stretch of cold for here weather coming up----mid teens to 20's----and it
got me motivated.

Part of the regimen has always been to toss in a jug of fuel system water
remover/anti-freeze. HEET or whatever is on sale.
Recently the powers that be mandated that we run a gas/ethanol blend year
round. Makes the corn farmers happy I guess. If I'm running 10% ethanol,
the fuel system anti-freeze is redundant--correct? AFAIK all the stuff is
is ethanol? Or is there something here that I'm not seeing?

Bill

I don't know, but the gas-line anti-freeze stuff we get here is said
to be Methyl Hydrate. Is that Ethanol?

Most gas-line antifreeze is methyl alcohol (methanol).

Some is isopropyl alcohol.

I've never seen ethyl alcohol (ethanol) used, but it would work.

The poison warning usually tells which it is.

Joe Gwinn

On Dec 12, 7:08*pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
*Brian Lawson wrote:



On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 20:23:11 GMT, "Bill Marrs"
wrote:

So I'm doing my regular winter maintenance on the rolling stock. *Check
anti-freeze, get the cold weather windshield washer fluid in, etc. *We have
a stretch of cold for here weather coming up----mid teens to 20's----and it
got me motivated.

Part of the regimen has always been to toss in a jug of fuel system water
remover/anti-freeze. HEET or whatever is on sale.
Recently the powers that be mandated that we run a *gas/ethanol blend year
round. *Makes the corn farmers happy I guess. * If I'm running 10% ethanol,
the fuel system anti-freeze is redundant--correct? *AFAIK all the stuff is
is ethanol? *Or is there something here that I'm not seeing?

Bill

I don't know, but the gas-line anti-freeze stuff we get here is said
to be Methyl Hydrate. *Is that Ethanol?

Most gas-line antifreeze is methyl alcohol (methanol).

Some is isopropyl alcohol.

I've never seen ethyl alcohol (ethanol) used, but it would work.

The poison warning usually tells which it is.

Joe Gwinn



Brian,

Ethanol, pure, is made by fermentation and is the active ingredient in
booze.

Methanol, methyl hydrate, aka wood alcohol makes you sick or blind at
best if ingested.

Not sure what effect isopropyl alcohol has on one's insides; it is
typically used in rubbing alcohol for external use only.

Wolfgang

In article
,
wrote:

On Dec 12, 7:08*pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
*Brian Lawson wrote:



On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 20:23:11 GMT, "Bill Marrs"
wrote:

So I'm doing my regular winter maintenance on the rolling stock. *Check
anti-freeze, get the cold weather windshield washer fluid in, etc. *We
have
a stretch of cold for here weather coming up----mid teens to
20's----and it
got me motivated.

Part of the regimen has always been to toss in a jug of fuel system
water
remover/anti-freeze. HEET or whatever is on sale.
Recently the powers that be mandated that we run a *gas/ethanol blend
year
round. *Makes the corn farmers happy I guess. * If I'm running 10%
ethanol,
the fuel system anti-freeze is redundant--correct? *AFAIK all the stuff
is
is ethanol? *Or is there something here that I'm not seeing?

Bill

I don't know, but the gas-line anti-freeze stuff we get here is said
to be Methyl Hydrate. *Is that Ethanol?

Most gas-line antifreeze is methyl alcohol (methanol).

Some is isopropyl alcohol.

I've never seen ethyl alcohol (ethanol) used, but it would work.

The poison warning usually tells which it is.

Joe Gwinn



Brian,

Ethanol, pure, is made by fermentation and is the active ingredient in
booze.

Methanol, methyl hydrate, aka wood alcohol makes you sick or blind at
best if ingested.

Not sure what effect isopropyl alcohol has on one's insides; it is
typically used in rubbing alcohol for external use only.

Isopropyl alcohol is poisonous.

Of all the alcohols, only ethyl is not poisonous.

Joe Gwinn

Ethanol, pure, is made by fermentation and is the active ingredient in
booze.

Methanol, methyl hydrate, aka wood alcohol makes you sick or blind at
best if ingested.

Not sure what effect isopropyl alcohol has on one's insides; it is
typically used in rubbing alcohol for external use only.

Isopropyl alcohol is poisonous.

Of all the alcohols, only ethyl is not poisonous.

Joe Gwinn

Oh ethyl alcohol is poisonous too. its just a matter of dose. Of course, may
people actually enjoy a sub-lethal dose VBG

Karl

Bill Marrs wrote:
So I'm doing my regular winter maintenance on the rolling stock. Check
anti-freeze, get the cold weather windshield washer fluid in, etc. We have
a stretch of cold for here weather coming up----mid teens to 20's----and it
got me motivated.

Part of the regimen has always been to toss in a jug of fuel system water
remover/anti-freeze. HEET or whatever is on sale.
Recently the powers that be mandated that we run a gas/ethanol blend year
round. Makes the corn farmers happy I guess. If I'm running 10% ethanol,
the fuel system anti-freeze is redundant--correct? AFAIK all the stuff is
is ethanol? Or is there something here that I'm not seeing?

Bill



We've had 10% since the late 70's. When fuel systems weren't tightly
sealed there were issues with cold and low usage vehicles so most folks
just got the regular or premium in the winter.

Since I discovered SeaFoam (non-alcohol), I can start the Toyota rat
plow truck once a month and use it for the short periods needed in the
winter. I used to have to drain the tank in the fall (lots of water in
the fuel no matter what the level or the fuel used).

Matt

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 20:23:11 GMT, "Bill Marrs"
wrote:

So I'm doing my regular winter maintenance on the rolling stock. Check
anti-freeze, get the cold weather windshield washer fluid in, etc. We have
a stretch of cold for here weather coming up----mid teens to 20's----and it
got me motivated.

Part of the regimen has always been to toss in a jug of fuel system water
remover/anti-freeze. HEET or whatever is on sale.
Recently the powers that be mandated that we run a gas/ethanol blend year
round. Makes the corn farmers happy I guess. If I'm running 10% ethanol,
the fuel system anti-freeze is redundant--correct? AFAIK all the stuff is
is ethanol? Or is there something here that I'm not seeing?

Bill

Just remember the Alky is hygroscopic - it attracts water - so your
fuel may be almost water saturated when you buy it. A drop in
temperature throws you into "phase separation" territory where the
water and alky fall out of the fuel.

Adding MORE alky raises the threshold, allowing the fuel to hold more
water before it falls out.

It's a viscous circle though - - -.

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:31:09 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Dec 12, 3:23Â*pm, "Bill Marrs" wrote:
So I'm doing my regular winter maintenance on the rolling stock. Â*Check
Â*anti-freeze, get the cold weather windshield washer fluid in, etc. Â*We have
Â*a stretch of cold for here weather coming up----mid teens to 20's----and it
got me motivated.

Part of the regimen has always been to toss in a jug of fuel system water
remover/anti-freeze. HEET or whatever is on sale.
Recently the powers that be mandated that we run a Â*gas/ethanol blend year
round. Â*Makes the corn farmers happy I guess. Â* If I'm running 10% ethanol,
the fuel system anti-freeze is redundant--correct? Â*AFAIK all the stuff is
is ethanol? Â*Or is there something here that I'm not seeing?

Bill

I think its still a good idea, the fuel anti-freeze is typically
methanol or isopropyl alcohol, which will get any water out better
than ethanol will.

Being topped off (full tank) before a large swing down in temps is
always the best preventative measure.


Dave
NO methanol in fuel injected engines. PLEASE.

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 19:08:44 -0500, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

In article ,
Brian Lawson wrote:

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 20:23:11 GMT, "Bill Marrs"
wrote:

So I'm doing my regular winter maintenance on the rolling stock. Check
anti-freeze, get the cold weather windshield washer fluid in, etc. We have
a stretch of cold for here weather coming up----mid teens to 20's----and it
got me motivated.

Part of the regimen has always been to toss in a jug of fuel system water
remover/anti-freeze. HEET or whatever is on sale.
Recently the powers that be mandated that we run a gas/ethanol blend year
round. Makes the corn farmers happy I guess. If I'm running 10% ethanol,
the fuel system anti-freeze is redundant--correct? AFAIK all the stuff is
is ethanol? Or is there something here that I'm not seeing?

Bill

I don't know, but the gas-line anti-freeze stuff we get here is said
to be Methyl Hydrate. Is that Ethanol?

Most gas-line antifreeze is methyl alcohol (methanol).

Some is isopropyl alcohol.

I've never seen ethyl alcohol (ethanol) used, but it would work.

The poison warning usually tells which it is.

Joe Gwinn

In the PAST methanol was the standard. Today almost allways Isopropyl.
Methanol has a habit of causing "issues" in fuel injected engines.

"Wes" wrote in message
news:N1C0l.401502$3I2.223063@en-nntp-

Someone told me that pipelines often pick up water and the alky sucks it
up but I've never
tracked it down to understand if this is bs or truth. A quick google
shows that water
often exists in pipelines but I didn't find the reason why.

I was told once that between different types of material they will run a
plug of water, and the receiving station will pump into a sperate tank and
seperate out the fuel from the start and end of the water plug. Sounded
bizarre to me, but who knows what strange things work in the world.

Bob La Londe
www.YumaBasssMan.com

wrote:

Just remember the Alky is hygroscopic - it attracts water - so your
fuel may be almost water saturated when you buy it. A drop in
temperature throws you into "phase separation" territory where the
water and alky fall out of the fuel.


Damn, wonder if weights and measures are checking for water content?

Seems like a chance for the same deal where you buy meat or poultry that is injected with
water.

Wes

Any tank that breathes - drawing in cool damp air at night and it 'dews'
inside the tank leaving water.

Martin

matthew maguire wrote:
Bill Marrs wrote:
So I'm doing my regular winter maintenance on the rolling stock. Check
anti-freeze, get the cold weather windshield washer fluid in, etc.
We have
a stretch of cold for here weather coming up----mid teens to
20's----and it
got me motivated.

Part of the regimen has always been to toss in a jug of fuel system water
remover/anti-freeze. HEET or whatever is on sale.
Recently the powers that be mandated that we run a gas/ethanol blend
year
round. Makes the corn farmers happy I guess. If I'm running 10%
ethanol,
the fuel system anti-freeze is redundant--correct? AFAIK all the
stuff is
is ethanol? Or is there something here that I'm not seeing?

Bill


We've had 10% since the late 70's. When fuel systems weren't tightly
sealed there were issues with cold and low usage vehicles so most folks
just got the regular or premium in the winter.

Since I discovered SeaFoam (non-alcohol), I can start the Toyota rat
plow truck once a month and use it for the short periods needed in the
winter. I used to have to drain the tank in the fall (lots of water in
the fuel no matter what the level or the fuel used).

Matt

Density of gas changes with temp - they measure volume. Some adjust
twice a year, some once every 3 years.

They got you in your 'under aware'.

Martin

Wes wrote:
wrote:

Just remember the Alky is hygroscopic - it attracts water - so your
fuel may be almost water saturated when you buy it. A drop in
temperature throws you into "phase separation" territory where the
water and alky fall out of the fuel.


Damn, wonder if weights and measures are checking for water content?

Seems like a chance for the same deal where you buy meat or poultry that is injected with
water.

Wes

"Bob La Londe" writes:


I was told once that between different types of material they will run a
plug of water, and the receiving station will pump into a sperate tank and
seperate out the fuel from the start and end of the water plug. Sounded
bizarre to me, but who knows what strange things work in the world.

Horsepocky..

There are some adjacent product mixes you want to avoid -- gasoline to
JetA, for example. Usually, that's handled that by not scheduling such
cuts. If unavoidable, you swing to the "slop" tank at first sign of the
change and stay there until stable in the new.

The slop tank is then slowly injected into furnace fuel as it arrives,
lowering the flash temp. from say 120F to 110F.

Other than that; it's not a big issue. No one sane would send water.
What happens if there's a power failure and the line stops... at 32F??

If not, what do you do with the contaminated water at the far end?


Yes, I worked on a products pipeline...
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:11:06 -0500, Steve Ackman
wrote:

In , on Fri, 12 Dec
2008 21:58:20 -0500, Joseph Gwinn, wrote:

Of all the alcohols, only ethyl is not poisonous.

Propylene glycol is used as an ingredient in food.
Carries GRAS rating by the FDA.
ANd propelene Glycol is not technically an alcohol, is it? (I looked
it up - it IS a diol alcohol It is more like a modified mineral oil
and is not ACCUTELY toxic.

Steve Ackman wrote:
In , on Sun, 14 Dec 2008
20:37:24 -0500, , wrote:
On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:11:06 -0500, Steve Ackman
wrote:

In , on Fri, 12 Dec
2008 21:58:20 -0500, Joseph Gwinn, wrote:

Of all the alcohols, only ethyl is not poisonous.
Propylene glycol is used as an ingredient in food.
Carries GRAS rating by the FDA.

ANd propelene Glycol is not technically an alcohol, is it? (I looked
it up - it IS a diol alcohol It is more like a modified mineral oil
and is not ACCUTELY toxic.

So, a diol alcohol isn't an alcohol? Isn't that kind
of like saying a latex paint isn't technically a paint?

As to toxicity... again, the FDA classifies it
"Generally Regarded As Safe" so, yeah, pretty much
"not poisonous" as long as you don't overdo it... like
regular spirits. As someone else mentioned, *everything*
is poisonous if the dose is large enough.

My most intimate knowledge of propylene glycol is as
the carrier for almost all coffee flavorings. That
French Vanilla or Hazlenut Supreme flavored coffee
you get from the coffee shop almost certainly contains
propylene glycol.


It's also the primary flavor carrier in Mountain Dew.

--
Steve W.
Near Cooperstown, New York

I got curious: The LDA50 in rats for ethanol is
10g/kg while that of propylene glycol is 20g/kg, so
if you consider ethanol to be non-toxic, then propylene
glycol is only half as toxic as that.

--
˜¯˜¯