Background. I have an old Index 40 vertical mill. It isn't in the
greatest shape, but it is usable and I'm gradually cleaning up some of the
problems from extended storage in a humid garage with a leaky roof.

The main use for it is cleaning up the faces of billets after hot forging
them. (I'm making pattern-welded [or damascus] steel. Looks like this
when it is done: http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u90/torin3/seam2.jpg )

The billets have an irregular surface and are covered in firescale. I've
been using a 3 insert cutter with an R-8 shank that uses TPG inserts.
Obviously it isn't that great of an option, and the TPG inserts wear down
quickly. One of my coworkers pointed out that octagon and round inserts
are much stronger, and handle interrupted cuts better. So, I'm thinking
about switching over.

I've seen a couple of insert mills that might be worth switching to. One
of them is the 'freedom' cutter by Mil-Tec. It can use
round/octagon/square inserts on the same body, has an R-8 shank, but it
seems to use proprietary sized inserts, and they want between $10 and $18
per insert.

I've seen a few others that use standard 85 degree inserts, APKTs, but
they only have 2 cutting positions, not the 8 that the octagons have.

On the plus side, I've got permission to raid the used insert pile at
work. They've been used, but they get pulled when they are still usable
to me, as I don't need a great surface finish, just mostly flat so that
the billet faces meet up for the next forge welding run. I just need to
return them when I'm done with them for recycling. So, I can probably not
need to pay a lot for APKT or OECR inserts, provided I can get a indexable
mill that fits the ones we use here.

I guess the advice I'm looking for is:

1. Should I got with octagon inserts?

2. If so, is there a non-proprietary option out there that uses standard
sizes, or suck it up and go with the 'freedom' cutter?

3. Should I go with the APKT option, and buy on ebay or use from the
recycle pile at work?

4. Is there a better option I missed that falls within my $200 budget?

Thanks!

Todd

I'll throw another wrench in the works for you. I use Sandvik R390 inserts.
These things have UNBELIEVABLE performance. Work best without coolant. You
run at very high speeds and feeds. They cut steel like butter. The chips
come off at black heat to red heat and very little heat goes into the part.
there are different grades for every application. Go to the sandvik web
site.

they are super expensive, but they are always on eBay cheap. My son says
every machinist in the country must be stealing from work and fencing on
eBay.

Karl

matthew maguire wrote:
(snip)
Hi Todd,

Consider this,

http://cgi.ebay.com/Logan-ES8S1-2-Va...1%7C240%3A1318

I have a Devlieg 2B and 2 kneemills in my little dog and pony shop, but
when it comes to removing scale (or making any flat surface), if I have
the time I'll run my little Sheldon shaper.

I'll let it run by itself and do something else, (really on the cheap).

Matt

First, and insurmountable problem, wife is insistant about no new machines
at this time.

Second, it says there is no autofeed, so I'd have to stay with the machine
or add one. I do have a powerfeed on my mill.

Other than that, it looks to be in great shape, and close by too.

Once I've got steady income from this, the first problem might go away.

Todd Rich wrote:

The main use for it is cleaning up the faces of billets after hot forging
them. (I'm making pattern-welded [or damascus] steel. Looks like this
when it is done: http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u90/torin3/seam2.jpg )

The billets have an irregular surface and are covered in firescale.

4. Is there a better option I missed that falls within my $200 budget?

Thanks!

Todd

Hi Todd,

Consider this,

http://cgi.ebay.com/Logan-ES8S1-2-Va...1%7C240%3A1318

I have a Devlieg 2B and 2 kneemills in my little dog and pony shop, but
when it comes to removing scale (or making any flat surface), if I have
the time I'll run my little Sheldon shaper.

I'll let it run by itself and do something else, (really on the cheap).

Matt

matthew maguire wrote:
Consider this,

http://cgi.ebay.com/Logan-ES8S1-2-Va...1%7C240%3A1318
...

Oh, that's cute. I wouldn't say "complete", though. I'm really glad
that it's not closer - I don't have the room or the need for it. G

Bob

On Nov 14, 8:45 am, Todd Rich wrote:
...
4. Is there a better option I missed that falls within my $200 budget?
Todd

Have you tried a hand-held angle grinder? If the metal is reflecting a
distant light source you can see and correct the waviness quite
easily. I read that prior to surface grinders, a skilled knife grinder
could grind flat by hand within about 1/64". I can usually grind a
weld close enough to clean up with an 0.025 milling cut.

On 2008-11-15, Todd Rich wrote:
matthew maguire wrote:
(snip)
Hi Todd,

Consider this,

http://cgi.ebay.com/Logan-ES8S1-2-Va...1%7C240%3A1318

You mean eBay auction # 190265823329 (a lot easier to
cut-and-paste than that typically over-long eBay URL. :-)

I have a Devlieg 2B and 2 kneemills in my little dog and pony shop, but
when it comes to removing scale (or making any flat surface), if I have
the time I'll run my little Sheldon shaper.

I'll let it run by itself and do something else, (really on the cheap).

Matt

First, and insurmountable problem, wife is insistant about no new machines
at this time.

That *is* a problem.

Second, it says there is no autofeed, so I'd have to stay with the machine
or add one. I do have a powerfeed on my mill.

Looking at the photos -- it once had one -- but there are parts
missing from it. Start with the dovetail on the round piece sticking
out of the side in the second view. You need to put a slide in it to
set the distance from the center of that white disc, then a linkage to
what should be on the shaft of the cross-feed crank -- a ratchet which
can be set to not engage, to engage on clockwise or only CCW. The
linkage needs to be adjustable in length to compensate for the motion of
the knee.

You can get the manuals for this from Scott Logan -- who
regularly posts (every two weeks, I think) the collection of FAQ links.
He also can supply some parts -- though I don't know how many for the
shaper. But I have the manual -- I picked it up from him at Cabin
Fever. IIRC, he also sells a complete set of drawings -- I think in
lieu of having the parts for this -- you can find out how to make them.

Other than that, it looks to be in great shape, and close by too.

That can be a benefit.

Once I've got steady income from this, the first problem might go away.

:-)

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

DoN. Nichols wrote:

You mean eBay auction # 190265823329 (a lot easier to
cut-and-paste than that typically over-long eBay URL. :-)

(big snip)

:-)

Good Luck,
DoN.


Hi Don,

OOOPS! I just Ebayed metal shaper and looked for a price less than the
200 toads referenced in the first post....

There are usually a number of nice toolroom shapers up for auction at
any time. I still marvel at how quiet, simple and accurate these little
shapers and slotters are.

Gettin' the urge to go cut something....

Matt

DoN. Nichols wrote:
matthew maguire wrote:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Logan-ES8S1-2-Va...1%7C240%3A1318

You mean eBay auction # 190265823329 (a lot easier to
cut-and-paste than that typically over-long eBay URL. :-)
....

Ah, but if you're using Thunderbird & have the go-to-URL plugin*, a
click on the posted URL opens Firefox with that URL. No
cutting-pasting-searching. Neat.

BoB G


* - or maybe that's not a plugin - I can't find it. Maybe it's an
Option. But I can't find that either. Sorry I can;t be more specific.

Bob Engelhardt wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote:
matthew maguire wrote:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Logan-ES8S1-2-Va...1%7C240%3A1318

You mean eBay auction # 190265823329 (a lot easier to
cut-and-paste than that typically over-long eBay URL. :-)
...

Ah, but if you're using Thunderbird & have the go-to-URL plugin*, a
click on the posted URL opens Firefox with that URL. No
cutting-pasting-searching. Neat.

BoB G


* - or maybe that's not a plugin - I can't find it. Maybe it's an
Option. But I can't find that either. Sorry I can;t be more
specific.

OE does that too , and will even open Firefox if it's your default browser
.. But if you're running Quotefix in OE , quite often you have to cut n paste
..
--
Snag
wannabe machinist and incipient backyard hobbycaster

On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 09:47:31 -0600, the infamous "Terry Coombs"
scrawled the following:

Bob Engelhardt wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote:
matthew maguire wrote:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Logan-ES8S1-2-Va...1%7C240%3A1318

You mean eBay auction # 190265823329 (a lot easier to
cut-and-paste than that typically over-long eBay URL. :-)
...

Ah, but if you're using Thunderbird & have the go-to-URL plugin*, a
click on the posted URL opens Firefox with that URL. No
cutting-pasting-searching. Neat.

BoB G


* - or maybe that's not a plugin - I can't find it. Maybe it's an
Option. But I can't find that either. Sorry I can;t be more
specific.

OE does that too , and will even open Firefox if it's your default browser
. But if you're running Quotefix in OE , quite often you have to cut n paste

I use the TinyURL plugin with Firefox, but it stopped working a couple
days ago when they updated FF to 2.0.0.18. They'll update it soon
enough.


--
When we are planning for posterity,
we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
-- Thomas Paine

Larry Jaques wrote:

I use the TinyURL plugin with Firefox, but it stopped working a couple
days ago when they updated FF to 2.0.0.18. They'll update it soon
enough.


We're running Firefox on the wife's desktop comp because I wanted to try it
out when it was my desktop . She's just as comfortable with it as Internet
Exploder and uses whichever she happens to click on .
We run Thunderbird on the same machine because it's a Vista box and
Windows Mail sucks a big green one .
--
Snag
'90 Ultra "Strider"
'39 WLDD "Popcycle"
Buncha cars and a truck

On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 16:19:30 -0600, the infamous "Terry Coombs"
scrawled the following:

Larry Jaques wrote:

I use the TinyURL plugin with Firefox, but it stopped working a couple
days ago when they updated FF to 2.0.0.18. They'll update it soon
enough.


We're running Firefox on the wife's desktop comp because I wanted to try it
out when it was my desktop . She's just as comfortable with it as Internet
Exploder and uses whichever she happens to click on .
We run Thunderbird on the same machine because it's a Vista box and
Windows Mail sucks a big green one .

I disagree. I reluctantly switched from Eudora to Outlook Express a
couple computers back and haven't had any data loss issues with it at
all. It's quick and easy to use. AAMOF, it's the lone MicroSloth
product about which I have no gripes. One bother is how long it takes
to compact mail, but that's 8 years worth. Why do you dislike it so?

--
When we are planning for posterity,
we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
-- Thomas Paine

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 16:19:30 -0600, the infamous "Terry Coombs"
scrawled the following:

Larry Jaques wrote:

I use the TinyURL plugin with Firefox, but it stopped working a
couple days ago when they updated FF to 2.0.0.18. They'll update
it soon enough.


We're running Firefox on the wife's desktop comp because I wanted to
try it out when it was my desktop . She's just as comfortable with
it as Internet Exploder and uses whichever she happens to click on .
We run Thunderbird on the same machine because it's a Vista box and
Windows Mail sucks a big green one .

I disagree. I reluctantly switched from Eudora to Outlook Express a
couple computers back and haven't had any data loss issues with it at
all. It's quick and easy to use. AAMOF, it's the lone MicroSloth
product about which I have no gripes. One bother is how long it takes
to compact mail, but that's 8 years worth. Why do you dislike it so?


You weren't listening , Larry . I said VISTA , and WINDOWS MAIL , which
is the email client for Vista (unless something's changed in the last year
or so) . I'm running OE w/quotefix on my desktop . But my desktop also runs
XP-Pro , not Vista . Only thing I've found about Vista that I like is the
parental controls , which is why I run it on the comps my grandkids use
(grandma's comp and an "extra" comp I keep for just that reason). Gonna have
to figger out a third box , the two year old wants to be just like Bubba and
Sis ...
--
Snag
'90 Ultra "Strider"
'39 WLDD "Popcycle"
Buncha cars and a truck

On 2008-11-16, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote:
matthew maguire wrote:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Logan-ES8S1-2-Va...1%7C240%3A1318

You mean eBay auction # 190265823329 (a lot easier to
cut-and-paste than that typically over-long eBay URL. :-)
...

Ah, but if you're using Thunderbird & have the go-to-URL plugin*, a
click on the posted URL opens Firefox with that URL. No
cutting-pasting-searching. Neat.

[ ... ]

* - or maybe that's not a plugin - I can't find it. Maybe it's an
Option. But I can't find that either. Sorry I can;t be more specific.

No matter -- I *won't* use Thunderbird (or any other web
browser) as a newsreader (nor as an e-mail client). It is too easy to
use HTML in the article or e-mail to hide nasties.

And CERT just posted a list of newly discovered security holes
in various Mozilla programs -- including Thunderbird, Firefox, and the
rest.

I use one program as a newsreader, another as an email client,
and a third as a web browser -- no connections between them. My browser
can't post or send e-mail (I've never enabled those features), my
newsreader can't interpret HTML, and my e-mail client can't work as
either a newsreader or a browser. And this lets me see some of the
nasties -- if I bother to take the time to look in detail at the HTML in
articles or in e-mails.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:52:14 -0600, the infamous "Terry Coombs"
scrawled the following:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 16:19:30 -0600, the infamous "Terry Coombs"
scrawled the following:

Larry Jaques wrote:

I use the TinyURL plugin with Firefox, but it stopped working a
couple days ago when they updated FF to 2.0.0.18. They'll update
it soon enough.


We're running Firefox on the wife's desktop comp because I wanted to
try it out when it was my desktop . She's just as comfortable with
it as Internet Exploder and uses whichever she happens to click on .
We run Thunderbird on the same machine because it's a Vista box and
Windows Mail sucks a big green one .

I disagree. I reluctantly switched from Eudora to Outlook Express a
couple computers back and haven't had any data loss issues with it at
all. It's quick and easy to use. AAMOF, it's the lone MicroSloth
product about which I have no gripes. One bother is how long it takes
to compact mail, but that's 8 years worth. Why do you dislike it so?


You weren't listening , Larry . I said VISTA , and WINDOWS MAIL , which
is the email client for Vista (unless something's changed in the last year
or so) . I'm running OE w/quotefix on my desktop . But my desktop also runs
XP-Pro , not Vista . Only thing I've found about Vista that I like is the
parental controls , which is why I run it on the comps my grandkids use
(grandma's comp and an "extra" comp I keep for just that reason). Gonna have
to figger out a third box , the two year old wants to be just like Bubba and
Sis ...

My bad. I haven't even used a Vista computer yet so I wasn't aware of
the major differences there.

--
When we are planning for posterity,
we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
-- Thomas Paine

Terry Coombs wrote:

(snip)

Only thing I've found about Vista that I like is the
parental controls ,

Hi Terry,

Vista did finally go to vector graphics for character generation (easy
on old eyes like mine), and has the file tags (probably nobody uses)
that lets the search function scream. I think that indexing thing is
mostly to blame for the large amount of memory needed by vista.

I'd never seen thunderbird or firefox 'till I put linux on my 8 year old
PIII866 last spring...It finally got a root kit in it I couldn't remove.
Up until then it ran WinMe, OE, Agent and Explorer all that time except
for when I tried XP and it just buried the poor PIII with 256meg.

Now I'm stuck learning Vista on my laptop and linux on the desktop....

Matt

Karl Townsend wrote:
I'll throw another wrench in the works for you. I use Sandvik R390 inserts.
These things have UNBELIEVABLE performance. Work best without coolant. You
run at very high speeds and feeds. They cut steel like butter. The chips
come off at black heat to red heat and very little heat goes into the part.
there are different grades for every application. Go to the sandvik web
site.

they are super expensive, but they are always on eBay cheap. My son says
every machinist in the country must be stealing from work and fencing on
eBay.

Karl

Sorry to take so long to reply. Looks like we do have them here at work,
so I would be able to raid the used pile as well as possibly buying them
new. However, do you know of a mill for them that is for sale for under
$200?

P.S. Most of the ones I'm seeing on Ebay were going for about $7 a pop.

On 2008-11-14, Karl Townsend wrote:
I'll throw another wrench in the works for you. I use Sandvik R390 inserts.

Karl, what is the tool holder that holds these inserts? Is there some
make or model number from Sandvik?

i

These things have UNBELIEVABLE performance. Work best without coolant. You
run at very high speeds and feeds. They cut steel like butter. The chips
come off at black heat to red heat and very little heat goes into the part.
there are different grades for every application. Go to the sandvik web
site.

they are super expensive, but they are always on eBay cheap. My son says
every machinist in the country must be stealing from work and fencing on
eBay.

Karl



--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

matthew maguire wrote:
Terry Coombs wrote:

(snip)

Only thing I've found about Vista that I like is the
parental controls ,

Hi Terry,

Vista did finally go to vector graphics for character generation (easy
on old eyes like mine), and has the file tags (probably nobody uses)
that lets the search function scream. I think that indexing thing is
mostly to blame for the large amount of memory needed by vista.

I'd never seen thunderbird or firefox 'till I put linux on my 8 year
old PIII866 last spring...It finally got a root kit in it I couldn't
remove. Up until then it ran WinMe, OE, Agent and Explorer all that
time except for when I tried XP and it just buried the poor PIII with
256meg.
Now I'm stuck learning Vista on my laptop and linux on the desktop....

Matt


Which version of Linux ? Ubuntu 8.04 is stable , has a great GUI , and
plays VERY well with windows . I've ran it alonside XP Pro , but not as a
dual-boot with Vista - yet . Another advantage is that it can be installed
from inside Windows , with minor loss of some functions (hibernation , for
example).
Looks like I might get a chance , I got the axe at the cabinet shop
yesterday . Time to shift over to metalworking for a living , I know of a
couple of niche markets that need more (cheaper!) suppliers .
--
Snag
'90 Ultra "Strider"
'39 WLDD "Popcycle"
Buncha cars and a truck

On 2008-11-19, matthew maguire wrote:
Terry Coombs wrote:

(snip)

Which version of Linux ? Ubuntu 8.04 is stable , has a great GUI , and
plays VERY well with windows . I've ran it alonside XP Pro , but not as a
dual-boot with Vista - yet . Another advantage is that it can be installed
from inside Windows , with minor loss of some functions (hibernation , for
example).
Looks like I might get a chance , I got the axe at the cabinet shop
yesterday . Time to shift over to metalworking for a living , I know of a
couple of niche markets that need more (cheaper!) suppliers .

PCLinuxOS Gnome 2008 (gnome based remaster) for now, (was a bit of a
linux tart for awhile). I did see that ubuntu got the "run from inside
windows" thing going well, and they have a "huge" user suppert base.

I don't dual boot the vista laptop and will probably take the desktop
all linux this winter. I got a bit of sticker shock with the laptop when
I started buying apps and the price went from 1200 to well over 2000...

I'm still amazed at how fast this old PIII 866 runs on linux, and the
correct solution for the 1440x900 screen (MS and Nvidea offer NO
solution for a box this old running a TNT 64).

I use Ubuntu Linux basically everywhere, at home, at work, on laptops
etc. I am typing this message from a Ubuntu laptop while riding a
train, I am logged on to my home ubuntu server via ssh and that is
where my slrn and text editor are running. Of all distros, I find
Ubuntu to be most sophisticated and most nicely done.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

Terry Coombs wrote:

(snip)

Which version of Linux ? Ubuntu 8.04 is stable , has a great GUI , and
plays VERY well with windows . I've ran it alonside XP Pro , but not as a
dual-boot with Vista - yet . Another advantage is that it can be installed
from inside Windows , with minor loss of some functions (hibernation , for
example).
Looks like I might get a chance , I got the axe at the cabinet shop
yesterday . Time to shift over to metalworking for a living , I know of a
couple of niche markets that need more (cheaper!) suppliers .

PCLinuxOS Gnome 2008 (gnome based remaster) for now, (was a bit of a
linux tart for awhile). I did see that ubuntu got the "run from inside
windows" thing going well, and they have a "huge" user suppert base.

I don't dual boot the vista laptop and will probably take the desktop
all linux this winter. I got a bit of sticker shock with the laptop when
I started buying apps and the price went from 1200 to well over 2000...

I'm still amazed at how fast this old PIII 866 runs on linux, and the
correct solution for the 1440x900 screen (MS and Nvidea offer NO
solution for a box this old running a TNT 64).

Matt

Todd Rich wrote:
(snip)
I guess the advice I'm looking for is:
(snorp)

Unfortunately, my work computer's motheboard caught on fire yesterday, and
I had to use my budget to buy a new motherboard...

Ignoramus12532 wrote:

(snip)

I use Ubuntu Linux basically everywhere, at home, at work, on laptops
etc. I am typing this message from a Ubuntu laptop while riding a
train, I am logged on to my home ubuntu server via ssh and that is
where my slrn and text editor are running. Of all distros, I find
Ubuntu to be most sophisticated and most nicely done.


Cool!

I settled on PCLos based completely on appearance, I like the deb based
flavors and really appreciate the commitment to remaining open based and
free.

I just liked the text and graphics solution that the solaris based os's
had and the gnome re-master in particular. I also think that many of the
solaris type programmers have in mind making a living at some point in
time (some selling pre-packaged boxes for low bucks), hence the work on
GUI appearance.

Matt

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:24:05 -0600, Ignoramus12532
wrote:


I'm still amazed at how fast this old PIII 866 runs on linux, and the
correct solution for the 1440x900 screen (MS and Nvidea offer NO
solution for a box this old running a TNT 64).

I use Ubuntu Linux basically everywhere, at home, at work, on laptops
etc. I am typing this message from a Ubuntu laptop while riding a
train, I am logged on to my home ubuntu server via ssh and that is
where my slrn and text editor are running. Of all distros, I find
Ubuntu to be most sophisticated and most nicely done.


My biggest issue with most versions of linux, is that few of them will
handle an external modem properly.

No..not Internal, which is another issue..but EXTERNAL ones.

Not unless you are a Linux whiz and go script writing

Gunner

"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..."
Maj. Gen. John Sedgewick, killed by a sniper in 1864 at the battle of Spotsylvania

On 2008-11-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:24:05 -0600, Ignoramus12532
wrote:


I'm still amazed at how fast this old PIII 866 runs on linux, and the
correct solution for the 1440x900 screen (MS and Nvidea offer NO
solution for a box this old running a TNT 64).

I use Ubuntu Linux basically everywhere, at home, at work, on laptops
etc. I am typing this message from a Ubuntu laptop while riding a
train, I am logged on to my home ubuntu server via ssh and that is
where my slrn and text editor are running. Of all distros, I find
Ubuntu to be most sophisticated and most nicely done.


My biggest issue with most versions of linux, is that few of them will
handle an external modem properly.

No..not Internal, which is another issue..but EXTERNAL ones.

Not unless you are a Linux whiz and go script writing


I have a feeling that you meant the opposite. External modems are easy
and internal ones are hard because they are usually softmodems.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

Gunner Asch writes:

My biggest issue with most versions of linux, is that few of them will
handle an external modem properly.

No..not Internal, which is another issue..but EXTERNAL ones.

Not unless you are a Linux whiz and go script writing

I'm very, very surprised. I can't speak to recent events (thank God,
I haven't had to use a modem, internal or external, in years), but
that seemed like one of the things they got right very early.

I was using minicom sometime in the last millenium (making my machine
look like a plain dumb terminal), and a standard ppp daemon to talk
IP-over-PPP for years after...

I'm a happy debian user, FWIW.

Ignoramus20688 writes:

On 2008-11-23, Gunner Asch wrote:

My biggest issue with most versions of linux, is that few of them will
handle an external modem properly.

No..not Internal, which is another issue..but EXTERNAL ones.

Not unless you are a Linux whiz and go script writing


I have a feeling that you meant the opposite. External modems are easy
and internal ones are hard because they are usually softmodems.

I'd agree, but he seemed to be pretty clear....

On 2008-11-23, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
Gunner Asch writes:

My biggest issue with most versions of linux, is that few of them will
handle an external modem properly.

No..not Internal, which is another issue..but EXTERNAL ones.

Not unless you are a Linux whiz and go script writing

I'm very, very surprised. I can't speak to recent events (thank God,
I haven't had to use a modem, internal or external, in years), but
that seemed like one of the things they got right very early.

I was using minicom sometime in the last millenium (making my machine
look like a plain dumb terminal), and a standard ppp daemon to talk
IP-over-PPP for years after...

I'm a happy debian user, FWIW.

The internal "winmodems" are the issue. I am going to Mexico in a week
and modems are a more pressing question about it.
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On 2008-11-23, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
Gunner Asch writes:

My biggest issue with most versions of linux, is that few of them will
handle an external modem properly.

No..not Internal, which is another issue..but EXTERNAL ones.

Not unless you are a Linux whiz and go script writing

I'm very, very surprised. I can't speak to recent events (thank God,
I haven't had to use a modem, internal or external, in years), but
that seemed like one of the things they got right very early.

Yes -- but if you were trying to configure uucp to make regular
(and automatic) connections to another system, there is a bit of a
learning curve.

And configuring for uucp also makes it easier for cu or tip to
work calling by system name, instead of having to pass parameters
through manually. IIRC, kermit did not use any of those features, so it
was as easy to use on unix/linux as on MS-DOS or whatever. Probably,
other terminal emulator programs were similarly easy.

I did use uucp to connect to my first feed -- both for e-mail
and usenet. That was first on a v7 unix, and then on a Unix-PC (SysVr2
mostly). With the 3B1, there was a move up to HDB (HonneyDanBer) uucp,
which had more security, and more configuration fun -- especially with a
Telebit Worldblazer modem. :-)

I was using minicom sometime in the last millenium (making my machine
look like a plain dumb terminal), and a standard ppp daemon to talk
IP-over-PPP for years after...

I'm a happy debian user, FWIW.

While I'm currently using a mix of Sun's Solaris and OpenBSD,
mostly on SPARC machines.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2008-11-23, DoN. Nichols wrote:
Yes -- but if you were trying to configure uucp to make regular
(and automatic) connections to another system, there is a bit of a
learning curve.

And configuring for uucp also makes it easier for cu or tip to
work calling by system name, instead of having to pass parameters
through manually. IIRC, kermit did not use any of those features, so it
was as easy to use on unix/linux as on MS-DOS or whatever. Probably,
other terminal emulator programs were similarly easy.

I stopped using uucp around '2000.

i


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On Sat, 22 Nov 2008 21:20:42 -0600, Ignoramus20688
wrote:

On 2008-11-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:24:05 -0600, Ignoramus12532
wrote:


I'm still amazed at how fast this old PIII 866 runs on linux, and the
correct solution for the 1440x900 screen (MS and Nvidea offer NO
solution for a box this old running a TNT 64).

I use Ubuntu Linux basically everywhere, at home, at work, on laptops
etc. I am typing this message from a Ubuntu laptop while riding a
train, I am logged on to my home ubuntu server via ssh and that is
where my slrn and text editor are running. Of all distros, I find
Ubuntu to be most sophisticated and most nicely done.


My biggest issue with most versions of linux, is that few of them will
handle an external modem properly.

No..not Internal, which is another issue..but EXTERNAL ones.

Not unless you are a Linux whiz and go script writing


I have a feeling that you meant the opposite. External modems are easy
and internal ones are hard because they are usually softmodems.


No...I meant what I wrote.

The dialing secquences and modem handling SUCK on most versions of
linux.

Been there, done that. Stocked up on USR 56k EXTERNAL models from
second hand stores etc etc....

Half of the versions of linux wouldnt even find a serial modem, those
that would, would dial, and NOT recognize that they were on like after
the password and user name sequences.

Im on dialup..no highspeed here. Ive tried at least 10 distros and few
would work properly

Gunner

"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..."
Maj. Gen. John Sedgewick, killed by a sniper in 1864 at the battle of Spotsylvania

In article ,
Gunner Asch wrote:

Im on dialup..no highspeed here. Ive tried at least 10 distros and few
would work properly

I had the same problem - slow dialup. I went to Skyway hybrid satellite
at $30/mo and have been pleased with the speed boost.

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/

Gunner Asch writes:

No...I meant what I wrote.

The dialing secquences and modem handling SUCK on most versions of
linux.

Been there, done that. Stocked up on USR 56k EXTERNAL models from
second hand stores etc etc....

Half of the versions of linux wouldnt even find a serial modem, those
that would, would dial, and NOT recognize that they were on like after
the password and user name sequences.

Im on dialup..no highspeed here. Ive tried at least 10 distros and few
would work properly

Don't know what to say -- I sure never experienced any of that with
slackware, redhat, nor debian...

On 2008-11-23, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
Gunner Asch writes:

No...I meant what I wrote.

The dialing secquences and modem handling SUCK on most versions of
linux.

Been there, done that. Stocked up on USR 56k EXTERNAL models from
second hand stores etc etc....

Half of the versions of linux wouldnt even find a serial modem, those
that would, would dial, and NOT recognize that they were on like after
the password and user name sequences.

Im on dialup..no highspeed here. Ive tried at least 10 distros and few
would work properly

Don't know what to say -- I sure never experienced any of that with
slackware, redhat, nor debian...

Modems were handled well by linux since times immemorial. Never had
troubles with US Robotics.
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Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
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posting on Usenet.
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On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 10:19:59 -0600, Ignoramus30837
wrote:

On 2008-11-23, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
Gunner Asch writes:

No...I meant what I wrote.

The dialing secquences and modem handling SUCK on most versions of
linux.

Been there, done that. Stocked up on USR 56k EXTERNAL models from
second hand stores etc etc....

Half of the versions of linux wouldnt even find a serial modem, those
that would, would dial, and NOT recognize that they were on like after
the password and user name sequences.

Im on dialup..no highspeed here. Ive tried at least 10 distros and few
would work properly

Don't know what to say -- I sure never experienced any of that with
slackware, redhat, nor debian...

Modems were handled well by linux since times immemorial. Never had
troubles with US Robotics.


so what would cause the modem to dial out, pass on the username and
password, and then simply sit there?

Opening the shell and watching the ack/nak username/password sequence
would show it dialing, sending password etc...then simply sit there like
a stone, until it times out..over and over again.

Gunner

"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..."
Maj. Gen. John Sedgewick, killed by a sniper in 1864 at the battle of Spotsylvania

On 2008-11-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 10:19:59 -0600, Ignoramus30837
wrote:

On 2008-11-23, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
Gunner Asch writes:

No...I meant what I wrote.

The dialing secquences and modem handling SUCK on most versions of
linux.

Been there, done that. Stocked up on USR 56k EXTERNAL models from
second hand stores etc etc....

Half of the versions of linux wouldnt even find a serial modem, those
that would, would dial, and NOT recognize that they were on like after
the password and user name sequences.

Im on dialup..no highspeed here. Ive tried at least 10 distros and few
would work properly

Don't know what to say -- I sure never experienced any of that with
slackware, redhat, nor debian...

Modems were handled well by linux since times immemorial. Never had
troubles with US Robotics.


so what would cause the modem to dial out, pass on the username and
password, and then simply sit there?

Wrong stuff in chat script? Not recognizing logon success?

Opening the shell and watching the ack/nak username/password sequence
would show it dialing, sending password etc...then simply sit there like
a stone, until it times out..over and over again.

I think that it is not a modem problem, as such, it is a problem of
what software you used to dial out. I used wvdial lately (a year ago)
in Mexico and it worked, I think that wvdial recognizes things a
little better.
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to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
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On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 11:58:37 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 10:19:59 -0600, Ignoramus30837
wrote:

On 2008-11-23, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
Gunner Asch writes:

No...I meant what I wrote.

The dialing secquences and modem handling SUCK on most versions of
linux.

Been there, done that. Stocked up on USR 56k EXTERNAL models from
second hand stores etc etc....

Half of the versions of linux wouldnt even find a serial modem, those
that would, would dial, and NOT recognize that they were on like after
the password and user name sequences.

Im on dialup..no highspeed here. Ive tried at least 10 distros and few
would work properly

Don't know what to say -- I sure never experienced any of that with
slackware, redhat, nor debian...

Modems were handled well by linux since times immemorial. Never had
troubles with US Robotics.


so what would cause the modem to dial out, pass on the username and
password, and then simply sit there?

Opening the shell and watching the ack/nak username/password sequence
would show it dialing, sending password etc...then simply sit there like
a stone, until it times out..over and over again.

Gunner


sounds to me to be configured with the wrong protocol.
modern systems use 'chap' - challenge handshake authentication
protocol, which exchanges some authentication information between the
machines but does not send the password.
find out what authentication protocol the dialed to site uses and
adjust the dialler machine's settings. typically you would have to
make a phone call to their support number and ask.

Stealth Pilot