Back in August I needed my Propane filled, after numerous calls to
Ferrellgas and no answer, I left a message on their machine to call me I
needed to order some LP gas. They never returned my call so I used the
money I had reserved for them and converted my hot water to electric, the
Gas water heater was in bad condition anyway. Recently I got a new ventless
propane heater and just got the line run and it works great. I have been
saving $$$ to get my propane tank filled.

Today I received a bill from Ferrellgas for $212.43 for a "No Usage Fee".
They already charge me $36 per year for the tank. I've been working
overtime and saving money to order more propane but I don't think I want to
be a customer of such a crappy company as Ferrellgas that charges like this
for non useage.

Is this "No Usage Fee" a standard thing. I wasn't aware of any minimum
usage requirments. Just wondering if this is a normal or if I just have a
bad company.

Thanks

RogerN

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

Back in August I needed my Propane filled, after numerous calls to
Ferrellgas and no answer, I left a message on their machine to call me I
needed to order some LP gas. They never returned my call so I used the
money I had reserved for them and converted my hot water to electric, the
Gas water heater was in bad condition anyway. Recently I got a new
ventless propane heater and just got the line run and it works great. I
have been saving $$$ to get my propane tank filled.

Today I received a bill from Ferrellgas for $212.43 for a "No Usage Fee".
They already charge me $36 per year for the tank. I've been working
overtime and saving money to order more propane but I don't think I want
to be a customer of such a crappy company as Ferrellgas that charges like
this for non useage.

Is this "No Usage Fee" a standard thing. I wasn't aware of any minimum
usage requirments. Just wondering if this is a normal or if I just have a
bad company.

Thanks

RogerN


It's been about 15 years ago, but the gas company did have a no use fee,
(once a year) equal to a min. quaintly purchase. But when I called, someone
dropped some gas, by the next day. Sometimes 2 when the weather got COLD.

Today I received a bill from Ferrellgas for $212.43 for a "No Usage Fee".

Roger, I would have happily delivered no propane to you for half of that.

In article , "RogerN" wrote:

Back in August I needed my Propane filled, after numerous calls to
Ferrellgas and no answer, I left a message on their machine to call me I
needed to order some LP gas. They never returned my call so I used the
money I had reserved for them and converted my hot water to electric, the
Gas water heater was in bad condition anyway. Recently I got a new ventless
propane heater and just got the line run and it works great. I have been
saving $$$ to get my propane tank filled.

Today I received a bill from Ferrellgas for $212.43 for a "No Usage Fee".
They already charge me $36 per year for the tank. I've been working
overtime and saving money to order more propane but I don't think I want to
be a customer of such a crappy company as Ferrellgas that charges like this
for non useage.

Is this "No Usage Fee" a standard thing. I wasn't aware of any minimum
usage requirments. Just wondering if this is a normal or if I just have a
bad company.

Unless you signed a contract with them, in which you agreed to pay when you
didn't use propane, they're attempting to bill you for their failure to
deliver a product which you ordered. Looked at in that light, it's probably a
violation of your state's consumer fraud statutes. Point that out to them, and
see if it changes their attitude a bit. Or just notify the consumer protection
division of the state attorney general's office, and let *them* point it out
to the propane company. I bet *that* gets their attention.

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 02:50:46 -0500, the infamous Richard J Kinch
scrawled the following:

Today I received a bill from Ferrellgas for $212.43 for a "No Usage Fee".

Roger, I would have happily delivered no propane to you for half of that.

I'd love to see the friendly SIUYA letter Roger delivered back to
them, wouldn't you?

(Stick It where the sun don't shine Rio Lindaers)

--
Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for.
-- Earl Warren

RogerN wrote:

Is this "No Usage Fee" a standard thing. I wasn't aware of any minimum
usage requirments. Just wondering if this is a normal or if I just have a
bad company.

First thing is I'd walk in the door at the local office and
demand to see where in the terms and conditions they can
ding you for non-usage. If they can't produce it on the
spot, demand they reverse that charge. And, it's time to
look for another provider.

Jon

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 09:35:17 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:

RogerN wrote:

Is this "No Usage Fee" a standard thing. I wasn't aware of any minimum
usage requirments. Just wondering if this is a normal or if I just have a
bad company.

First thing is I'd walk in the door at the local office and
demand to see where in the terms and conditions they can
ding you for non-usage. If they can't produce it on the
spot, demand they reverse that charge. And, it's time to
look for another provider.

Jon

To give a succinct answer, YES.

We have several suppliers in my area, but they all have
similar fees and rates. If you have a large tank, they own
the tank and it cannot be filled by a competitor (State
Law), unless the tanks owner cannot fill it for some reason.
You have to buy a certain amount per year or pay a fee with
the ~600 gallon tanks. The terms go on ad nauseam...

You can call around and try other suppliers, but...
Competitors won't pump out another's tank, they (tank owner)
have a fee for tank removal and pump out, competitor may
have a "come-on" rate to lure you in, rate will go up once
you have their tank and maybe a year has passed...

Playing the propane game has become a pain in the butt
nowadays

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 09:35:17 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:

snip

Playing the propane game has become a pain in the butt
nowadays

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Yes, that shouldn't be because the spend $$$ advertising propane vs electric
and then they treat you like crap. My old propane furnace was very
inefficient, it think much of the heat went out the vent and was lost in the
ducts. The first winter at this house with propane cost me about $200 per
month just for the propane alone. The next year I heated the house with
multiple 120V Oil filled radiators and the kitchen stove at the coldest
temperatures. The electric bill for heat and all electrical usage was only
up to $150 per month.

Since Propane is supposed to be cheaper heat, I got a Mr Heater ventless
propane heater. I thought it would be worth a try since it doesn't waste
heat through a vent or through duct work.

I contacted Ferrelgas today and they said they would drop the charge if I
would order at least 200 gallons of propane. I was planning to order anyway
and with todays payday I had enough to place the order.

I don't like the way they treat their customers and hope to look at other
propane companies by the next refill. If they would send me a notice that
they would charge me for non-usage if I didn't order then I would be OK with
it, or at least I'd have a chance to tell them to come and get their tank
and stick it up their ....

Thanks

RogerN

"RogerN" wrote:

Is this "No Usage Fee" a standard thing. I wasn't aware of any minimum
usage requirments. Just wondering if this is a normal or if I just have a
bad company.


I noticed they slipped in that I'm responsible for hydro test along the way. The tank has
been here well over 25 years. I don't think they have done a hydro test since it would
require a defill, test, refill and the kicker, a relight of pilots. You can't relight
unless I let you in.

It is one of those, if you pay your bill and don't terminate you agree to the new terms
sort of thing. Guess you know government isn't on your side in this deal.

Wes

--

I'll have respect for the law when the law has respect for me.
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

RogerN wrote:

I don't like the way they treat their customers and hope to look at other
propane companies by the next refill. If they would send me a notice that
they would charge me for non-usage if I didn't order then I would be OK with
it, or at least I'd have a chance to tell them to come and get their tank
and stick it up their ....

I didn't know about the fee thing. I rent, my landlord
signed the contract. I use more than enough to avoid any
such fees, sadly....

But I had problems with my propane company. I have a poor
sense of smell, but my ex wife was always complaining about
smelling propane outside. I called several times, and was
just blown off as it being nothing. I had no idea how much
it might be venting, and since the tank was on the edge of a
shallow ravine, there was no danger of a build up of fumes.
But winter one day we came home from the store and she
really started complaining about it. I looked at the
regulator and for the first time, noticed what looked like
heat waves just above it! Yep, it was venting for sure.

Called the propane company to complain and was told it was
normal for regulators to vent a bit in hot weather. I
pointed out it was winter and we had 6" of snow on the
ground.... Asked for the owner to complain and he became
very indignant when I said several previous calls had been
blown off as no big deal. I told him either they replace the
regulator NOW or I would have someone else's tank in place
within the week. It was replaced a couple days later, and
our propane use dropped about 25%. I probably vented $200
worth of propane over a 2-3 year span....

My landlord is looking to buy some tanks so we can shop
around and buy from whomever we want. I can't wait...
Almost makes me wish for the old pot belly coal burner that
was here when I moved it. Almost....

Jon

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 09:35:17 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:

snip

Playing the propane game has become a pain in the butt
nowadays

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Yes, that shouldn't be because the spend $$$ advertising propane vs
electric and then they treat you like crap. My old propane furnace was
very inefficient, it think much of the heat went out the vent and was lost
in the ducts. The first winter at this house with propane cost me about
$200 per month just for the propane alone. The next year I heated the
house with multiple 120V Oil filled radiators and the kitchen stove at the
coldest temperatures. The electric bill for heat and all electrical usage
was only up to $150 per month.

Since Propane is supposed to be cheaper heat, I got a Mr Heater ventless
propane heater. I thought it would be worth a try since it doesn't waste
heat through a vent or through duct work.

I don't think ventless propane in living quarters is a good idea.

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 09:35:17 -0800, Jon Anderson wrote:

RogerN wrote:

Is this "No Usage Fee" a standard thing. I wasn't aware of any minimum
usage requirments. Just wondering if this is a normal or if I just
have a bad company.

First thing is I'd walk in the door at the local office and demand to
see where in the terms and conditions they can ding you for non-usage.
If they can't produce it on the spot, demand they reverse that charge.
And, it's time to look for another provider.

Jon

I second that. When a vendor says "I'm tired of having you as a
customer" it's your job to listen.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" gives you just what it says.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On Oct 30, 10:57*pm, "RogerN" wrote:
Back in August I needed my Propane filled, after numerous calls to
Ferrellgas and no answer, I left a message on their machine to call me I
needed to order some LP gas. *They never returned my call so I used the
money I had reserved for them and converted my hot water to electric, the
Gas water heater was in bad condition anyway. *Recently I got a new ventless
propane heater and just got the line run and it works great. *I have been
saving $$$ to get my propane tank filled.


Thanks

RogerN

You might have a look at this . http://www.geokiss.com/info-kit/survival.pdf

It gives info on how to compare cost of different fuels. Propane used
to be relatively cheap, but now in my area it is more expensive for
heating than electricity. I am thinking about replacing the hot water
heater with an electric one.

Dan

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 15:45:02 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:

snip
My landlord is looking to buy some tanks so we can shop
around and buy from whomever we want. I can't wait...
Almost makes me wish for the old pot belly coal burner that
was here when I moved it. Almost....

Make sure you check around first, a lot of the companies
will only fill their own tanks due to insurance/liability.
At least that is the story I have heard in this area. I'm
talking about the ~500+ gallon size tanks. You can probably
get the 100 pound size filled okay by taking them in. Maybe
okay if you don't use a lot. We go through around 750
gallons per year. Furnace, stove, hot water are all propane.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:24:19 -0500, "RogerN"
wrote:

snip
I don't like the way they treat their customers and hope to look at other
propane companies by the next refill. If they would send me a notice that
they would charge me for non-usage if I didn't order then I would be OK with
it, or at least I'd have a chance to tell them to come and get their tank
and stick it up their ....

Ask to see a copy of their Terms first. All of the companies
around here have a pump-out and pickup fee. Somewhere
between $100-$200 currently. A new provider will probably
waive the set-up fees, provided you stay with them for
around a year or two. Other wise they will stick you with
fees when you leave early. Make sure you look over the new
companies Term/Fee schedule before jumping too. Most likely
it will be virtually identical to the company you are
parting ways with...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Leon Fisk wrote:

Make sure you check around first, a lot of the companies
will only fill their own tanks due to insurance/liability.
At least that is the story I have heard in this area. I'm
talking about the ~500+ gallon size tanks. You can probably
get the 100 pound size filled okay by taking them in. Maybe
okay if you don't use a lot. We go through around 750
gallons per year. Furnace, stove, hot water are all propane.

I have called around, there are several local providers that
will fill an owner tank. The big boys I don't think will,
but the smaller guys will. They prefer to rent the tank and
lock people in, but come down to it, a sale is a sale...

BTW, talked to the driver last time, he told me about a
couple out of town and off the grid. They have a decent size
home and run propane powered generators and a small kiln.
They burn through around $1000/month worth of propane! Must
be nice to have that kind of money.... but if I did, I'd be
looking to invest in technology and appliances that would
lessen my needs first.

Jon

I skipped the meeting, but the Memos showed that "RogerN"
wrote on Fri, 31 Oct 2008 00:57:08 -0500 in
rec.crafts.metalworking :

Back in August I needed my Propane filled, after numerous calls to
Ferrellgas and no answer, I left a message on their machine to call me I
needed to order some LP gas. They never returned my call so I used the
money I had reserved for them and converted my hot water to electric, the
Gas water heater was in bad condition anyway. Recently I got a new ventless
propane heater and just got the line run and it works great. I have been
saving $$$ to get my propane tank filled.

Today I received a bill from Ferrellgas for $212.43 for a "No Usage Fee".
They already charge me $36 per year for the tank. I've been working
overtime and saving money to order more propane but I don't think I want to
be a customer of such a crappy company as Ferrellgas that charges like this
for non useage.

Is this "No Usage Fee" a standard thing. I wasn't aware of any minimum
usage requirments. Just wondering if this is a normal or if I just have a
bad company.

Let me see if I have this correct. You wanted to order propane
from them, spent a lot of time & effort trying to get them to deliver
propane, and now they wish to bill you for their failure to sell you
propane?
Maybe you can bill them for the costs of converting to an
alternate source of hot water. And tack on some charges for their
failure to cash your check (the one not written to not-pay for the
propane they didn't deliver.)


tschus
pyotr



--
pyotr filipivich
"I had just been through hell and must have looked like death warmed
over walking into the saloon, because when I asked the bartender
whether they served zombies he said, ‘Sure, what'll you have?'"
from I Hear America Swinging by Peter DeVries

Yeah, I thought about sending them a bill. It would seem like in these
economic times, companies shouldn't want to drive their customers away. I
searched on the internet and some other companies charge for low useage or
non-usage but their fee was less than half of what I was billed. When I
called them they were anxious to drop the charge for a propane order. I'm
wondering if they are trying to sell as much fuel as possible at a higher
price before the price goes down. I'm assuming that it lags behind gasoline
prices something like Diesel fuel prices do.

Because of their policy to treat their customers like crap, I'm hoping to
purchase my own smaller tank and buy propane from their competition. I'm
hoping to be able to save up the money by the time I run this tank empty to
avoid a pump out charge. I wonder if I could have their competition remove
the tank and have it delivered to their location and avoid all charges from
them?


RogerN



"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
I skipped the meeting, but the Memos showed that "RogerN"
wrote on Fri, 31 Oct 2008 00:57:08 -0500 in
rec.crafts.metalworking :

Back in August I needed my Propane filled, after numerous calls to
Ferrellgas and no answer, I left a message on their machine to call me I
needed to order some LP gas. They never returned my call so I used the
money I had reserved for them and converted my hot water to electric, the
Gas water heater was in bad condition anyway. Recently I got a new
ventless
propane heater and just got the line run and it works great. I have been
saving $$$ to get my propane tank filled.

Today I received a bill from Ferrellgas for $212.43 for a "No Usage Fee".
They already charge me $36 per year for the tank. I've been working
overtime and saving money to order more propane but I don't think I want
to
be a customer of such a crappy company as Ferrellgas that charges like
this
for non useage.

Is this "No Usage Fee" a standard thing. I wasn't aware of any minimum
usage requirments. Just wondering if this is a normal or if I just have a
bad company.

Let me see if I have this correct. You wanted to order propane
from them, spent a lot of time & effort trying to get them to deliver
propane, and now they wish to bill you for their failure to sell you
propane?
Maybe you can bill them for the costs of converting to an
alternate source of hot water. And tack on some charges for their
failure to cash your check (the one not written to not-pay for the
propane they didn't deliver.)


tschus
pyotr



--
pyotr filipivich
"I had just been through hell and must have looked like death warmed
over walking into the saloon, because when I asked the bartender
whether they served zombies he said, 'Sure, what'll you have?'"
from I Hear America Swinging by Peter DeVries

They said my propane is currently $2.19/gallon. I'm currently setting up my
home to use Fuji PID Fuzzy Logic temperature controllers wired to solid
state relays with oil filled radiators. The propane heat provides 30,000
btu/h and the electric heaters and temp controls let me adjust different
areas/zones.

RogerN

"Steve Ackman" wrote in message
rg...
In ,
on Fri, 31 Oct 2008 21:08:13 -0700 (PDT), ,
wrote:

You might have a look at this .
http://www.geokiss.com/info-kit/survival.pdf

It gives info on how to compare cost of different fuels. Propane used
to be relatively cheap, but now in my area it is more expensive for
heating than electricity. I am thinking about replacing the hot water
heater with an electric one.

I don't even have to look at an enegy calculator.
Just got #2 oil last week for $2.99/gal. and propane
is coming this week for $3.12/gal.
HUH??? With propane only yielding... what, ~70% the
heat content of oil, propane is a REALLY BAD deal right
now.

--
??

"Steve Ackman" wrote in message
rg...

I don't even have to look at an enegy calculator.
Just got #2 oil last week for $2.99/gal. and propane
is coming this week for $3.12/gal.
HUH??? With propane only yielding... what, ~70% the
heat content of oil, propane is a REALLY BAD deal right
now.

--

Oil burning units are typically at best 80% efficient, LP can run into the
mid 90% range. I popped the numbers in quick and fuel oil at 80% and $2.99,
and LP at $3.12 and 92%. Cost per million BTU, $26.95 for oil, $37.13 for
LP. So at first glance oil seems cheap!

Now one thing to consider is to operate at its highest efficiency and oil
unit needs attention at least every two years. Most oil burners I see get
attention when they quit running! A typical tune for oil is a new nozzle,
filter, adjust the spark electrodes and run, Forest, run. I have tested
quite a few oil burners and have yet to see one running close to 80%, unless
I had just done a GOOD tune which includes cleaning the heat exchanger
besides the fore mentioned. One residential oil burning furnace I worked on
lately I removed 5 gallons of sot from inside the heat exchanger!! Most I
see are running around 50% efficiency because lack of maintenace! (I worked
on a boiler the other day that was running 40%!!) Plug in the numbers at 50%
efficiency and the cost per million for oil jumps to $43.12! Plus consider
the maintenance oil requires where a high efficiency LP burner will require
little to no maintenance and oil gets worse yet.
For me to do a good tune on your oil burner I would spend 3-4 hours, at $90
an hour, plus parts, add that to your heating bill!

Lucky for me I have natural gas, and even adding all the taxes, and any
adjustments my cost per million BTU at 94% is $21.28.
Greg