Everybody, thank you!!!

I've compiled the responses and they are GOLD! Everybody should read and
save the uncommon wisdom expressed here by our little group, it applies to
all of us. We are creative and have to solve problems and meet challenges
in our hobbies and professions and we all draw great satisfaction in our
metal mastery. Isn't it wonderful to have such a resource of people willing
to share their varied wisdom at your fingertips?

You have given me a wealth of ideas for my little group of three brilliant
guys (and then there's me) to exceed our own expectations and limits.
Understand, I'm so proud of them as colleagues and friends for their works
and energy. We don't have to go to work every day, we look forward to going
to the fun place! The best fun is the brainstorming and the satisfaction of
conquering a challenge. We now have some great tools to better foster the
type of thinking that brings that satisfaction.

P.S. Years ago, I posted a request for help to better organization and
accomplishment. The consensus was "Make Lists", the OTHER gold nugget that
I appreciate, adopted and thank God for.

Tom Gardner wrote:

Everybody, thank you!!!

I've compiled the responses and they are GOLD! Everybody should read and
save the uncommon wisdom expressed here by our little group, it applies to
all of us. We are creative and have to solve problems and meet challenges
in our hobbies and professions and we all draw great satisfaction in our
metal mastery. Isn't it wonderful to have such a resource of people willing
to share their varied wisdom at your fingertips?

You have given me a wealth of ideas for my little group of three brilliant
guys (and then there's me) to exceed our own expectations and limits.
Understand, I'm so proud of them as colleagues and friends for their works
and energy. We don't have to go to work every day, we look forward to going
to the fun place! The best fun is the brainstorming and the satisfaction of
conquering a challenge. We now have some great tools to better foster the
type of thinking that brings that satisfaction.

P.S. Years ago, I posted a request for help to better organization and
accomplishment. The consensus was "Make Lists", the OTHER gold nugget that
I appreciate, adopted and thank God for.



Now get busy, and put the Chinese out of the wire brush business!


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Tom Gardner wrote:

Everybody, thank you!!!

I've compiled the responses and they are GOLD! Everybody should read and
save the uncommon wisdom expressed here by our little group, it applies
to
all of us. We are creative and have to solve problems and meet
challenges
in our hobbies and professions and we all draw great satisfaction in our
metal mastery. Isn't it wonderful to have such a resource of people
willing
to share their varied wisdom at your fingertips?

You have given me a wealth of ideas for my little group of three
brilliant
guys (and then there's me) to exceed our own expectations and limits.
Understand, I'm so proud of them as colleagues and friends for their
works
and energy. We don't have to go to work every day, we look forward to
going
to the fun place! The best fun is the brainstorming and the satisfaction
of
conquering a challenge. We now have some great tools to better foster
the
type of thinking that brings that satisfaction.

P.S. Years ago, I posted a request for help to better organization and
accomplishment. The consensus was "Make Lists", the OTHER gold nugget
that
I appreciate, adopted and thank God for.



Now get busy, and put the Chinese out of the wire brush business!


Most all of the products that were our bread and butter...and a nice portion
of jam, are made in China now so we had to develop niche products that are
too few or too difficult for the Chinese to make. Wal-Mart buys a
shoe-handle model wire scratch brush for 19 cents delivered, that they sell
for 99 cents. It costs me 25 cents to buy the wire in coils that have to be
cut yet. Hard to compete even though mine would out-last the China model by
ten to one. The consumer doesn't care.

On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 00:35:25 -0400, Tom Gardner wrote:

Everybody, thank you!!!

I've compiled the responses and they are GOLD! Everybody should read and
save the uncommon wisdom expressed here by our little group, it applies to
all of us. We are creative and have to solve problems and meet challenges
in our hobbies and professions and we all draw great satisfaction in our
metal mastery. Isn't it wonderful to have such a resource of people willing
to share their varied wisdom at your fingertips?

You have given me a wealth of ideas for my little group of three brilliant
guys (and then there's me) to exceed our own expectations and limits.
Understand, I'm so proud of them as colleagues and friends for their works
and energy. We don't have to go to work every day, we look forward to going
to the fun place! The best fun is the brainstorming and the satisfaction of
conquering a challenge. We now have some great tools to better foster the
type of thinking that brings that satisfaction.

P.S. Years ago, I posted a request for help to better organization and
accomplishment. The consensus was "Make Lists", the OTHER gold nugget that
I appreciate, adopted and thank God for.

There's a good article in a recent New Yorker about where intuition comes
from which might be a helpful read. Hard science, not hand-waving
psycho-babble.

On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 01:22:54 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Tom
Gardner" quickly quoth:


Most all of the products that were our bread and butter...and a nice portion
of jam, are made in China now so we had to develop niche products that are
too few or too difficult for the Chinese to make. Wal-Mart buys a
shoe-handle model wire scratch brush for 19 cents delivered, that they sell
for 99 cents. It costs me 25 cents to buy the wire in coils that have to be
cut yet. Hard to compete even though mine would out-last the China model by
ten to one. The consumer doesn't care.

The consumer DOES care. I purchased a set of 6 wire brushes from HF a
couple months ago. I used one last week and all the wires (steel) bent
over on the first pass or three. sigh Their brass BBQ brush died on
the third use, but the scotchbrite pad on the other side is holding in
there all this year.

I need to get up a small list for you, Tawm.

--
Who is wise? He that learns from every One.
Who is powerful? He that governs his Passions.
Who is rich? He that is content.
Who is that? Nobody.
-- Benjamin Franklin

On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 11:14:25 GMT, _
wrote:


There's a good article in a recent New Yorker about where intuition comes
from which might be a helpful read. Hard science, not hand-waving
psycho-babble.

Can you summarize it for us?

Tom Gardner wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Now get busy, and put the Chinese out of the wire brush business!

Most all of the products that were our bread and butter...and a nice portion
of jam, are made in China now so we had to develop niche products that are
too few or too difficult for the Chinese to make. Wal-Mart buys a
shoe-handle model wire scratch brush for 19 cents delivered, that they sell
for 99 cents. It costs me 25 cents to buy the wire in coils that have to be
cut yet. Hard to compete even though mine would out-last the China model by
ten to one. The consumer doesn't care.


Some customers would care, if they had any idea. Quality, domestic
made products have been gone for so long that they have no clue.


As the wages and operating costs go up in China, it will cause some
of that work to return to our shores. Like the sign said, "You are the
top dog, and your competitors are all fire hydrants!!!" ;-)

It's too bad I didn't know about you or your business, when I lived
in Ohio. I was 'up north' a few times a year.

BTW, have you ever visited Mendelson's in Dayton Ohio? It's a huge
industrial surplus business. I used to visit quite often, and buy bulk
hardware by the pound. They had over 1000 new & used motors, along with
anything removed when a factory was shut down, or retooled. I bought a
5/8-27 tap there for $1.25. My boss was ****ed, because the company had
pad almost $300 for the same tap, through their normal supply system.

http://www.meci.com/index.php

They also had an area for industrial customers only.


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 01:22:54 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Tom
Gardner" quickly quoth:


Most all of the products that were our bread and butter...and a nice
portion
of jam, are made in China now so we had to develop niche products that are
too few or too difficult for the Chinese to make. Wal-Mart buys a
shoe-handle model wire scratch brush for 19 cents delivered, that they
sell
for 99 cents. It costs me 25 cents to buy the wire in coils that have to
be
cut yet. Hard to compete even though mine would out-last the China model
by
ten to one. The consumer doesn't care.

The consumer DOES care. I purchased a set of 6 wire brushes from HF a
couple months ago. I used one last week and all the wires (steel) bent
over on the first pass or three. sigh Their brass BBQ brush died on
the third use, but the scotchbrite pad on the other side is holding in
there all this year.

I need to get up a small list for you, Tawm.

--
Who is wise? He that learns from every One.
Who is powerful? He that governs his Passions.
Who is rich? He that is content.
Who is that? Nobody.
-- Benjamin Franklin

Let me rephrase, the consumer doesn't even have access to quality anymore.
None of my scratch brushes are available to the public anymore, only
industrial/professional.

On Sep 6, 1:50 pm, "Tom Gardner" wrote:
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message

...



On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 01:22:54 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Tom
Gardner" quickly quoth:

Most all of the products that were our bread and butter...and a nice
portion
of jam, are made in China now so we had to develop niche products that are
too few or too difficult for the Chinese to make. Wal-Mart buys a
shoe-handle model wire scratch brush for 19 cents delivered, that they
sell
for 99 cents. It costs me 25 cents to buy the wire in coils that have to
be
cut yet. Hard to compete even though mine would out-last the China model
by
ten to one. The consumer doesn't care.

The consumer DOES care. I purchased a set of 6 wire brushes from HF a
couple months ago. I used one last week and all the wires (steel) bent
over on the first pass or three. sigh Their brass BBQ brush died on
the third use, but the scotchbrite pad on the other side is holding in
there all this year.

I need to get up a small list for you, Tawm.

--
Who is wise? He that learns from every One.
Who is powerful? He that governs his Passions.
Who is rich? He that is content.
Who is that? Nobody.
-- Benjamin Franklin

Let me rephrase, the consumer doesn't even have access to quality anymore.
None of my scratch brushes are available to the public anymore, only
industrial/professional.

Tom,

Aye, there's the rub! I always look for Canadian / USA made stuff
first but nowadays there is little choice. Even my wife is beginning
to complain about the lack of choices not just in one store but
between stores.

I am convinced that people, given a choice between low price low
quality goods vs good quality fair priced goods would evaluate this at
least subconsciously and make the appropriate decision. Sometimes it
may indeed be in favour of low-cost low price, eg. brushes to clean
machinery. But a wire brush in regular workshop usage would warrant a
good quality purchase.

And, thanks for the compliment. I hope you can put some of the info
given to good use. Your Op sounds like a fun place. I was running a
small automation outfit 10 or so years ago (until sold by the owner)
and it was a fun place to work. Lots of creativity and elegant
solutions. The new owners ran it into bankruptcy!

Wolfgang

wrote in news:5259520b-3885-439c-9659-9b4cbba23dcd@
2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com:

I am convinced that people, given a choice between low price low
quality goods vs good quality fair priced goods would evaluate this at
least subconsciously and make the appropriate decision. Sometimes it
may indeed be in favour of low-cost low price, eg. brushes to clean
machinery. But a wire brush in regular workshop usage would warrant a
good quality purchase.

Most seem to be members of the "Throwaway Society" - get it cheap, use it
only a few times for a specific job, then throw it away in the full
knowledge that, soon enough, they'll have to get another one, use it a few
times, then throw it away.

They also view people the same way.

If it's something that I don't already have on hand, unlikely to ever be
needed once a specific project is completed, and I'm not that sure that I'd
be using it properly then I'll go cheap.

OTOH, If I have to replace it, I WON'T go cheap since, having determined
a need for [and learned the proper use of] a good one, I'll get a good
one. grin

For the most part, I consider the cheap ones to be expendable supplies
rather than tools.

Tom Gardner wrote:
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 01:22:54 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Tom
Gardner" quickly quoth:



Most all of the products that were our bread and butter...and a nice
portion
of jam, are made in China now so we had to develop niche products that are
too few or too difficult for the Chinese to make. Wal-Mart buys a
shoe-handle model wire scratch brush for 19 cents delivered, that they
sell
for 99 cents. It costs me 25 cents to buy the wire in coils that have to
be
cut yet. Hard to compete even though mine would out-last the China model
by
ten to one. The consumer doesn't care.

The consumer DOES care. I purchased a set of 6 wire brushes from HF a
couple months ago. I used one last week and all the wires (steel) bent
over on the first pass or three. sigh Their brass BBQ brush died on
the third use, but the scotchbrite pad on the other side is holding in
there all this year.

I need to get up a small list for you, Tawm.

--
Who is wise? He that learns from every One.
Who is powerful? He that governs his Passions.
Who is rich? He that is content.
Who is that? Nobody.
-- Benjamin Franklin


Let me rephrase, the consumer doesn't even have access to quality anymore.
None of my scratch brushes are available to the public anymore, only
industrial/professional.




the rotary brushes I get sure don't last long. I wish I could get
better quality ones. I use a rotary brush in a 1/4 inch shaft in an air
tool to clean up the internal threads on castings when they come back
from heat treating. The minor diameter of the acme threads range from
three inchs and larger. I must have gone through over 20 of them in the
last six months.

Got any suggestions?


John

On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 13:50:44 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Tom
Gardner" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 01:22:54 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Tom
Gardner" quickly quoth:

ten to one. The consumer doesn't care.

The consumer DOES care. I purchased a set of 6 wire brushes from HF a
couple months ago. I used one last week and all the wires (steel) bent
over on the first pass or three. sigh Their brass BBQ brush died on
the third use, but the scotchbrite pad on the other side is holding in
there all this year.

I need to get up a small list for you, Tawm.

Let me rephrase, the consumer doesn't even have access to quality anymore.
None of my scratch brushes are available to the public anymore, only
industrial/professional.

Are you saying that you can or will no longer sell to us, Tawm?
Or are you saying that what we seek isn't on the US consumer market
any longer?

--
Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life.
---- --Unknown

"john" wrote in message
...
snip
the rotary brushes I get sure don't last long. I wish I could get better
quality ones. I use a rotary brush in a 1/4 inch shaft in an air tool to
clean up the internal threads on castings when they come back from heat
treating. The minor diameter of the acme threads range from three inchs
and larger. I must have gone through over 20 of them in the last six
months.

Got any suggestions?


John


Air tools spin too fast for most brushing operations. At 10-20k they
burnish rather than cut. Also, there's not much wire in those little
brushes. I'm surprised you only go through 20, I have customers that go
through more in a day. How about a 8" dia. 2" wide wire wheel on a body
grinder? The variables a Speed, pressure, diameter, wire diameter, trim
length, wire alloy, width and horsepower. When you find the right mix, the
job is done well for the least cost.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 13:50:44 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Tom
Gardner" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 01:22:54 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Tom
Gardner" quickly quoth:

ten to one. The consumer doesn't care.

The consumer DOES care. I purchased a set of 6 wire brushes from HF a
couple months ago. I used one last week and all the wires (steel) bent
over on the first pass or three. sigh Their brass BBQ brush died on
the third use, but the scotchbrite pad on the other side is holding in
there all this year.

I need to get up a small list for you, Tawm.

Let me rephrase, the consumer doesn't even have access to quality anymore.
None of my scratch brushes are available to the public anymore, only
industrial/professional.

Are you saying that you can or will no longer sell to us, Tawm?
Or are you saying that what we seek isn't on the US consumer market
any longer?

--
Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life.
---- --Unknown

Ace Hardware used to carry our stuff they bought through a distributor.
Western Auto bought truckloads when I was a kid. Gone! The consumer
market only has Osborn brushes left for the better quality, available at
Home Depot, and those brushes are made in Mexico. I can't figure out how to
sell to the public. Brushes are so cheap that $100 invoices, the paperwork
costs more than the profit.

"Tom Gardner" wrote:

Most all of the products that were our bread and butter...and a nice portion
of jam, are made in China now so we had to develop niche products that are
too few or too difficult for the Chinese to make. Wal-Mart buys a
shoe-handle model wire scratch brush for 19 cents delivered, that they sell
for 99 cents. It costs me 25 cents to buy the wire in coils that have to be
cut yet. Hard to compete even though mine would out-last the China model by
ten to one. The consumer doesn't care.


We sold an Index G200 that was fully amortized though it had mainenance issues because the
parts it was making could be bought from Korea for less than the price of American raw
materials. Sucks for a hard working American to be told his or her job went away because
no matter how hard you work, you will still cost more.

Wes

Larry Jaques wrote:
....
--
Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life.
---- --Unknown

I've heard it attributed to Art Blakey. Slightly different: "Music
washes away the dust of everyday life."
--
Nota for President

Tom Gardner wrote:
"john" wrote in message
...
snip
the rotary brushes I get sure don't last long. I wish I could get better
quality ones. I use a rotary brush in a 1/4 inch shaft in an air tool to
clean up the internal threads on castings when they come back from heat
treating. The minor diameter of the acme threads range from three inchs
and larger. I must have gone through over 20 of them in the last six
months.

Got any suggestions?


John


Air tools spin too fast for most brushing operations. At 10-20k they
burnish rather than cut. Also, there's not much wire in those little
brushes. I'm surprised you only go through 20, I have customers that go
through more in a day. How about a 8" dia. 2" wide wire wheel on a body
grinder? The variables a Speed, pressure, diameter, wire diameter, trim
length, wire alloy, width and horsepower. When you find the right mix, the
job is done well for the least cost.



When CP still made good air tools in Utica, they sold a die grinder that
had a gear reduction drive on it. It turned 4-5k instead of the high
speed. About the only thing I have seen like it sold today is the one IR
sells as a tire buffer (IR-327LS). That one is high torque but lower rpm
(3k). I would bet it would work good with a wire wheel.

--
Steve W.
Near Cooperstown, New York

"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Tom Gardner wrote:
"john" wrote in message
...
snip
the rotary brushes I get sure don't last long. I wish I could get
better quality ones. I use a rotary brush in a 1/4 inch shaft in an air
tool to clean up the internal threads on castings when they come back
from heat treating. The minor diameter of the acme threads range from
three inchs and larger. I must have gone through over 20 of them in the
last six months.

Got any suggestions?


John


Air tools spin too fast for most brushing operations. At 10-20k they
burnish rather than cut. Also, there's not much wire in those little
brushes. I'm surprised you only go through 20, I have customers that go
through more in a day. How about a 8" dia. 2" wide wire wheel on a body
grinder? The variables a Speed, pressure, diameter, wire diameter,
trim length, wire alloy, width and horsepower. When you find the right
mix, the job is done well for the least cost.

When CP still made good air tools in Utica, they sold a die grinder that
had a gear reduction drive on it. It turned 4-5k instead of the high
speed. About the only thing I have seen like it sold today is the one IR
sells as a tire buffer (IR-327LS). That one is high torque but lower rpm
(3k). I would bet it would work good with a wire wheel.

--
Steve W.
Near Cooperstown, New York

Actually, that's too slow. Run a brush at it's optimum "surface feet per
minute".

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Tom Gardner" wrote:

Most all of the products that were our bread and butter...and a nice
portion
of jam, are made in China now so we had to develop niche products that are
too few or too difficult for the Chinese to make. Wal-Mart buys a
shoe-handle model wire scratch brush for 19 cents delivered, that they
sell
for 99 cents. It costs me 25 cents to buy the wire in coils that have to
be
cut yet. Hard to compete even though mine would out-last the China model
by
ten to one. The consumer doesn't care.


We sold an Index G200 that was fully amortized though it had mainenance
issues because the
parts it was making could be bought from Korea for less than the price of
American raw
materials. Sucks for a hard working American to be told his or her job
went away because
no matter how hard you work, you will still cost more.

Wes

Chances are foreign governments subsidize some industries. We used to make
millions of 1/4" stem mounted hardware quality brushes. The Spanish prison
system make them with rejected tire-cord wire. That's the brass-plated wire
you see everywhere, it's crap.

On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 20:05:38 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Tom
Gardner" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 13:50:44 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Tom
Gardner" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 01:22:54 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Tom
Gardner" quickly quoth:

ten to one. The consumer doesn't care.

The consumer DOES care. I purchased a set of 6 wire brushes from HF a
couple months ago. I used one last week and all the wires (steel) bent
over on the first pass or three. sigh Their brass BBQ brush died on
the third use, but the scotchbrite pad on the other side is holding in
there all this year.

I need to get up a small list for you, Tawm.

Let me rephrase, the consumer doesn't even have access to quality anymore.
None of my scratch brushes are available to the public anymore, only
industrial/professional.

Are you saying that you can or will no longer sell to us, Tawm?
Or are you saying that what we seek isn't on the US consumer market
any longer?

--
Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life.
---- --Unknown

Ace Hardware used to carry our stuff they bought through a distributor.
Western Auto bought truckloads when I was a kid. Gone! The consumer
market only has Osborn brushes left for the better quality, available at
Home Depot, and those brushes are made in Mexico. I can't figure out how to
sell to the public. Brushes are so cheap that $100 invoices, the paperwork
costs more than the profit.

Man, either your accountant is way overpaid or your documentation
level exceeds that of the _IRS_ on a bad day.

You'll just have to "lose stock" "scrap stock" off the production
floor sometime soon, huh? I wouldn't want you to get into trouble over
paperwork.

Alternatively, I could stock your brushes here in Oregon for consumer
distribution. Send a 30' container full.

--
Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life.
---- --Unknown

On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 20:52:19 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, Bob
Engelhardt quickly quoth:

Larry Jaques wrote:
...
--
Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life.
---- --Unknown

I've heard it attributed to Art Blakey. Slightly different: "Music
washes away the dust of everyday life."

He would know! (pretty good jazz.) I don't recall where I picked up
the other one, but I like it even better.

I was watching Kurt Russell in "Soldier" tonight and heard a song I
really liked. I tracked it down and was listening to it with chills up
my spine. Loreena McKennitt's "Night Ride Across the Caucasus". Wow!
They're a Celtic band with lots of other styles blended in. I'm going
to get this album.
http://www.quinlanroad.com/exploreth...kofsecrets.asp
From the linked page:
--snip--
"A good traveller has no fixed plans, and is not intent on arriving."

Chinese philosopher Lao Tzu's words are a good introduction to the
third album in a trilogy of musical travel documents that began with
The Visit. Recorded at Peter Gabriel's Real World studios in England,
The Book Of Secrets was written and researched all over the world,
and, following its release in 1997, would go on to sell several
million copies around the globe.

The album features a cast of over two dozen musical collaborators, and
the eight songs contained therein, including North American hit single
“The Mummers’ Dance”, leads the listener on unexpected journeys.
Follow the music from ancient Byzantium to a puppet-maker's theatre in
Sicily, or from the rocky island of Skellig Michael once inhabited by
Irish monks in the Dark Ages to Venice and the journeys of Marco Polo,
or from the tragic narrative of “ The Highwayman” to the thunder of
hooves across the Caucasus and the echoes of Dante’ s words found,
unexpectedly, in a train journey across Siberia.
--snip--

--
Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life.
---- --Unknown

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 20:05:38 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Tom
Gardner" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 13:50:44 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Tom
Gardner" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
m...
On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 01:22:54 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Tom
Gardner" quickly quoth:

ten to one. The consumer doesn't care.

The consumer DOES care. I purchased a set of 6 wire brushes from HF a
couple months ago. I used one last week and all the wires (steel) bent
over on the first pass or three. sigh Their brass BBQ brush died on
the third use, but the scotchbrite pad on the other side is holding in
there all this year.

I need to get up a small list for you, Tawm.

Let me rephrase, the consumer doesn't even have access to quality
anymore.
None of my scratch brushes are available to the public anymore, only
industrial/professional.

Are you saying that you can or will no longer sell to us, Tawm?
Or are you saying that what we seek isn't on the US consumer market
any longer?

--
Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life.
---- --Unknown

Ace Hardware used to carry our stuff they bought through a distributor.
Western Auto bought truckloads when I was a kid. Gone! The consumer
market only has Osborn brushes left for the better quality, available at
Home Depot, and those brushes are made in Mexico. I can't figure out how
to
sell to the public. Brushes are so cheap that $100 invoices, the
paperwork
costs more than the profit.

Man, either your accountant is way overpaid or your documentation
level exceeds that of the _IRS_ on a bad day.

You'll just have to "lose stock" "scrap stock" off the production
floor sometime soon, huh? I wouldn't want you to get into trouble over
paperwork.

Alternatively, I could stock your brushes here in Oregon for consumer
distribution. Send a 30' container full.

--
Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life.
---- --Unknown

I know it sounds funny but small orders just suck! People spend too much
time prepping and packing and we figure it costs $15 to do one invoice. We
could gear-up for small sales but we would need a plan and training.
Typically, 80% of my product goes out in full truck loads, 26 pallets on a
truck, four trucks a month...just like clockwork. 2 customers take that
80%. (I know, I know!)

"Tom Gardner" wrote:

Actually, that's too slow. Run a brush at it's optimum "surface feet per
minute".


And what is that?

Wes

On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 02:52:29 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Tom
Gardner" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .

I know it sounds funny but small orders just suck! People spend too much
time prepping and packing and we figure it costs $15 to do one invoice. We
could gear-up for small sales but we would need a plan and training.

I know how that goes, as I still sell tees and glare guards one by
one. Instead of gearing up for small orders yourself, perhaps you
might talk to other distributors you haven't talked to already. The
Chinese brushes are so ****ty that they fall apart on the first use.
Your market is anyone who has ever used one, since quality sells
itself, especially during downturns. People can't afford to waste
money.


Typically, 80% of my product goes out in full truck loads, 26 pallets on a
truck, four trucks a month...just like clockwork. 2 customers take that
80%. (I know, I know!)

Scary! Last month was like that for me, with one client usurping
nearly all of my time. It had been really slow, so that really helped.
She made my month. Now to make my year...I have only 7 months to make
up and 4 more to go!

--
Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life.
---- --Unknown

On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 10:39:40 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 11:14:25 GMT, _
wrote:


There's a good article in a recent New Yorker about where intuition comes
from which might be a helpful read. Hard science, not hand-waving
psycho-babble.

Can you summarize it for us?

Just guessing, but I think this is the article:

http://web.mit.edu/ekmiller/Public/w...New_Yorker.pdf

It hadn't been released yet to the public when I went
searching for it. This seems to be a good copy and no I
haven't read it yet but will eventually...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On Sep 7, 8:02 am, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 02:52:29 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Tom
Gardner" quickly quoth:



"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
I know it sounds funny but small orders just suck! People spend too much
time prepping and packing and we figure it costs $15 to do one invoice. We
could gear-up for small sales but we would need a plan and training.

I know how that goes, as I still sell tees and glare guards one by
one. Instead of gearing up for small orders yourself, perhaps you
might talk to other distributors you haven't talked to already. The
Chinese brushes are so ****ty that they fall apart on the first use.
Your market is anyone who has ever used one, since quality sells
itself, especially during downturns. People can't afford to waste
money.

Typically, 80% of my product goes out in full truck loads, 26 pallets on a
truck, four trucks a month...just like clockwork. 2 customers take that
80%. (I know, I know!)

Scary! Last month was like that for me, with one client usurping
nearly all of my time. It had been really slow, so that really helped.
She made my month. Now to make my year...I have only 7 months to make
up and 4 more to go!

--
Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life.
---- --Unknown



Five years or so ago when I decided to go-it-alone I thought long and
hard on my business model. I concluded that the competition for
machining, prototype, production, type shops was too fierce here in
south-western Ontario, Canada. In discussion with owners of a number
of related businesses I discovered that there were weeks where every
employee got their weekly paycheck while the owner worked for $2 per
hour! Not for me.

Being a P.Eng. with broad heavy engineering and business experience I
"hung out my shingle", obtained license and E & O insurance, and
advertised. (reminder to self: PAY E&O Ins. TOMORROW MORNING).

The first year was not very encouraging; the second was much better,
the third was outstanding, now the fourth year is back to the straight-
line growth curve (as opposed to exponential). And two or three of my
clients provide over 50% of my billings. Last year 1 client provided
about 50%.

Having no employees I can do as I like as long as the bills get paid.
With all the tax deductions available this is not difficult.

Here are the services I provide to my clientèle in south-western
Ontario:

-Certification of load capacity of assorted material lifts and hoists
including under-hook appliances and lift assists.

-Certification of industrial walkways, access platforms, cat walks,
ladders, mezzanines, ramps, storage racks.

-Certification of balcony railings.

For each of the above items I can, of course, also do the design; but
often the design is done by firms with experienced but non-P.Eng.
staff and the legal requirement is that a P.Eng. certify and sign the
fabrication drawings. I'm a pretty conscientious guy and do the
design calcs regardless whether it is my design or not, so that I can
be sure, and afford my E&O insurance in the future.

Occasionally I run into interesting situations when I am asked to
certify an old and in-use lift or hoist. I explain to the owner/user
what he is in for and that his pride-and-joy that made money for him
for 20+ years may not pass certification BECAUSE IT MUST COMPLY WITH
REGULATIONS before I will certify it.

Only twice have I certified an item that was not in strict compliance
with applicable regulations. In each case I wrote a report, which
became an integral part of the certified documents, describing why the
superficial infractions provided a safer working environment for the
workers than if the regulations had been strictly adhered to.

So far I have not been called-out by the regulating authorities. Mind
you I am conservative in my assumptions (that's why we talk of the ART
of engineering!) and steel is cheap. After all I am not paid to
design or certify airplanes:-)).

And the best part is I really enjoy it.

Wolfgang

Wow, what a great article. Explains many things I have experienced an
I bet the rest of the group have, also.

One example: I own a small electronic assembly service. Last Spring we
replace our old wave solder machine with a new CNC selective soldering
machine. I junked out the old wave solder machine after we emptied the
solder pot of hundreds of pounds of solder. The machine had lots of
stainless steel sheet and other steel parts which we sold to the local
scrap dealer. When all was removed, there was a large supporting frame
made of square steel tube. I questioned whether I should just cut it
up or was there some use we could make of it. I had already taken some
other framework home for future projects.

I was about to continue on with cutting the frame up when I decided to
relax, setting on the old green stool in the shop. I sat and stared at
the frame for perhaps 10 minutes, then I saw it! This was not a
framework, it was two metal carts joined by 6 pieces of square steel
tubing! We always need more carts in the plant and they are a pain to
build. 15 minutes of sawing and there were the carts. Well, there were
the frames all welded up and ready to be cleaned and painted and have
a plywood top and shelf added, plus 4 casters.

This article also shed light on why when we collect boxes and boxes of
seemingly useless stuff, and finally get rid of it, only to discover
we need one piece to solve a problem, only it is gone. Our brain
remembers each and every one of those pieces of junk and perhaps sorts
through them trying to solve a problem! I am more encouraged than ever
to stop getting rid of my precious STUFF!

In the same vein, boxes of stuff I have bought at auction or yard sale
never enter into a problem or projects solution. These are someone
else's memories. I find when discovering one of the purchased boxes
and searching through it, I have several 'aha moments. If I had know
about this item, I could have solved last weeks challenge. If I
rummage through the boxes often enough, then they seem to become
really part of my junk collection, but it takes time.

Wonderful article.

Paul Drahn
Central Oregon





On Sep 7, 11:41*am, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 10:39:40 -0500, Don Foreman

wrote:
On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 11:14:25 GMT, _
wrote:

There's a good article in a recent New Yorker about where intuition comes
from which might be a helpful read. *Hard science, not hand-waving
psycho-babble.

Can you summarize it for us?

Just guessing, but I think this is the article:

http://web.mit.edu/ekmiller/Public/w...cles/Lehrer_In...

It hadn't been released yet to the public when I went
searching for it. This seems to be a good copy and no I
haven't read it yet but will eventually...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids *MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Tom Gardner" wrote:

Actually, that's too slow. Run a brush at it's optimum "surface feet per
minute".


And what is that?

Wes

Ah, there's the rub! It might take a bit of experimenting. Usually, @ 2/3
of the brush's max speed.

Leon Fisk wrote in
news
It hadn't been released yet to the public when I went
searching for it. This seems to be a good copy and no I
haven't read it yet but will eventually...


It was published in July.

Tom Gardner wrote:

"Wes" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote:


Most all of the products that were our bread and butter...and a nice
portion
of jam, are made in China now so we had to develop niche products that are
too few or too difficult for the Chinese to make. Wal-Mart buys a
shoe-handle model wire scratch brush for 19 cents delivered, that they
sell
for 99 cents. It costs me 25 cents to buy the wire in coils that have to
be
cut yet. Hard to compete even though mine would out-last the China model
by
ten to one. The consumer doesn't care.


We sold an Index G200 that was fully amortized though it had mainenance
issues because the
parts it was making could be bought from Korea for less than the price of
American raw
materials. Sucks for a hard working American to be told his or her job
went away because
no matter how hard you work, you will still cost more.

Wes


Chances are foreign governments subsidize some industries. We used to make
millions of 1/4" stem mounted hardware quality brushes. The Spanish prison
system make them with rejected tire-cord wire. That's the brass-plated wire
you see everywhere, it's crap.




I wondered why the brushes I'm using were brass plated, of course they
were only .99 each.


John

On Sun, 07 Sep 2008 14:41:32 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote:


Can you summarize it for us?

Just guessing, but I think this is the article:

http://web.mit.edu/ekmiller/Public/w...New_Yorker.pdf

It hadn't been released yet to the public when I went
searching for it. This seems to be a good copy and no I
haven't read it yet but will eventually...

Thanks, Leon! I read it thoroughly, twice.

On Mon, 08 Sep 2008 23:55:34 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, Don
Foreman quickly quoth:

On Sun, 07 Sep 2008 14:41:32 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote:


Can you summarize it for us?

Just guessing, but I think this is the article:

http://web.mit.edu/ekmiller/Public/w...New_Yorker.pdf

It hadn't been released yet to the public when I went
searching for it. This seems to be a good copy and no I
haven't read it yet but will eventually...

Thanks, Leon! I read it thoroughly, twice.

Yes, a good read (I'm halfway through as we speak, and, like you, will
probably want to reread it to pick up the tidbits I missed the first
time around.)


This just in:

Wow, that was quick! Amazon and its vendors must be making a killing
on this one right now. Used, _from_ $55?

http://tinyurl.com/6aud6x

New paperback from $8.66. Jump on it!

--
Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life.
---- --Unknown

On Mon, 08 Sep 2008 23:55:34 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sun, 07 Sep 2008 14:41:32 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote:


Can you summarize it for us?

Just guessing, but I think this is the article:

http://web.mit.edu/ekmiller/Public/w...New_Yorker.pdf

It hadn't been released yet to the public when I went
searching for it. This seems to be a good copy and no I
haven't read it yet but will eventually...

Thanks, Leon! I read it thoroughly, twice.

Yes, I got through it once and plan on re-reading it again,
albeit more slowly.

It confirms some suspicions I had and gives me some good
guidelines for even better results.

I suspect it would be cool to participate and discuss things
in those studies.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On Sep 7, 2:41 pm, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 10:39:40 -0500, Don Foreman

wrote:
On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 11:14:25 GMT, _
wrote:

There's a good article in a recent New Yorker about where intuition comes
from which might be a helpful read. Hard science, not hand-waving
psycho-babble.

Can you summarize it for us?

Just guessing, but I think this is the article:

http://web.mit.edu/ekmiller/Public/w...cles/Lehrer_In...

It hadn't been released yet to the public when I went
searching for it. This seems to be a good copy and no I
haven't read it yet but will eventually...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email


Quite good!

Sadly, a recent article in scientific american on the same subject was
not nearly as good.


Dave

On Tue, 9 Sep 2008 11:57:14 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Sep 7, 2:41 pm, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 10:39:40 -0500, Don Foreman

wrote:
On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 11:14:25 GMT, _
wrote:

There's a good article in a recent New Yorker about where intuition comes
from which might be a helpful read. Hard science, not hand-waving
psycho-babble.

Can you summarize it for us?

Just guessing, but I think this is the article:

http://web.mit.edu/ekmiller/Public/w...cles/Lehrer_In...

It hadn't been released yet to the public when I went
searching for it. This seems to be a good copy and no I
haven't read it yet but will eventually...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email


Quite good!

Sadly, a recent article in scientific american on the same subject was
not nearly as good.

Dave

Is it available to the public? If so do you have a link to
it?

I had some pretty good hints/info that allowed me to find a
copy of the article I linked to...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On Sep 9, 3:00 pm, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Tue, 9 Sep 2008 11:57:14 -0700 (PDT),



wrote:
On Sep 7, 2:41 pm, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 10:39:40 -0500, Don Foreman

wrote:
On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 11:14:25 GMT, _
wrote:

There's a good article in a recent New Yorker about where intuition comes
from which might be a helpful read. Hard science, not hand-waving
psycho-babble.

Can you summarize it for us?

Just guessing, but I think this is the article:

http://web.mit.edu/ekmiller/Public/w...cles/Lehrer_In...

It hadn't been released yet to the public when I went
searching for it. This seems to be a good copy and no I
haven't read it yet but will eventually...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Quite good!

Sadly, a recent article in scientific american on the same subject was
not nearly as good.

Dave

Is it available to the public? If so do you have a link to
it?

I had some pretty good hints/info that allowed me to find a
copy of the article I linked to...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email


I don't think it was this one

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=...our-creativity

more likely this one

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=...ing-creativity

Dave

On Tue, 9 Sep 2008 13:30:40 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Sadly, a recent article in scientific american on the same subject was
not nearly as good.

Dave

Is it available to the public? If so do you have a link to
it?

I had some pretty good hints/info that allowed me to find a
copy of the article I linked to...

--
Leon Fisk


I don't think it was this one

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=...our-creativity

more likely this one

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=...ing-creativity

Thanks Dave, got'em, saved them to read later when I have a
minute

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On Sep 10, 12:51*pm, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Tue, 9 Sep 2008 13:30:40 -0700 (PDT),





wrote:
Sadly, a recent article in scientific american on the same subject was
not nearly as good.

Dave

Is it available to the public? If so do you have a link to
it?

I had some pretty good hints/info that allowed me to find a
copy of the article I linked to...

--
Leon Fisk

I don't think it was this one

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=...our-creativity

more likely this one

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=...ing-creativity

Thanks Dave, got'em, saved them to read later when I have a
minute

--
Leon Fisk

AHA!

Joss Whedon writes imaginitive, socially dysfunctional characters like
that into his science fiction.