I have a Sherline vertical mill (the 5000 series) and I keep having a
problem with my aluminum workpiece pulling loose from the mill vise.
I have NEVER had very good luck getting the Sherline mill vise to hold
aluminum terribly well. Is this a deficiency of their mill vise?
Would a different mill vise solve the problem? Is it possible that .
010" cuts are too much?

wrote in message ...
I have a Sherline vertical mill (the 5000 series) and I keep having a
problem with my aluminum workpiece pulling loose from the mill vise.
I have NEVER had very good luck getting the Sherline mill vise to hold
aluminum terribly well. Is this a deficiency of their mill vise?
Would a different mill vise solve the problem? Is it possible that .
010" cuts are too much?

There has been mention of this on the Sherline Yahoo group lately,
following extensive discussion and evaluation of Sherline chucks
with holding problems.

It appears that (assuming you are using the vise properly) you have
a defective vise. As best I can remember, mine has never let a part
loose even once in several years of use. It grips as well or better than
comparable models you could replace it with. .010" cuts are very
conservative in 6061.

I wonder if people use the trivial procedure of yanking on the
workpiece after gripping it in the vise. I've never had a workpiece
come loose from any vise on any mill if I could not pull it loose
by hand. I also do the obvious things like gripping enough of the
part (probably always 1/8" or more), and always either gripping
in the center of the vise or using a spacer on the opposing side.
If such practices do not yield perfectly reliable hold, then I have
to believe the vise is defective.

Alan

"Alan Wright" wrote in message ...

wrote in message ...
I have a Sherline vertical mill (the 5000 series) and I keep having a
problem with my aluminum workpiece pulling loose from the mill vise.
I have NEVER had very good luck getting the Sherline mill vise to hold
aluminum terribly well. Is this a deficiency of their mill vise?
Would a different mill vise solve the problem? Is it possible that .
010" cuts are too much?

There has been mention of this on the Sherline Yahoo group lately,
following extensive discussion and evaluation of Sherline chucks
with holding problems.

It appears that (assuming you are using the vise properly) you have
a defective vise. As best I can remember, mine has never let a part
loose even once in several years of use. It grips as well or better than
comparable models you could replace it with. .010" cuts are very
conservative in 6061.

I wonder if people use the trivial procedure of yanking on the
workpiece after gripping it in the vise. I've never had a workpiece
come loose from any vise on any mill if I could not pull it loose
by hand. I also do the obvious things like gripping enough of the
part (probably always 1/8" or more), and always either gripping
in the center of the vise or using a spacer on the opposing side.
If such practices do not yield perfectly reliable hold, then I have
to believe the vise is defective.

Alan


One other note: these vises (i.e. screwless type) can pretend to
be tight when they are not. They will appear to tighten because
they are engaging the wrong notch underneath, and thus at full
tightness do not yet contact the part. However, in such case
the part will be loose to the touch. It is imperative to unscrew
the thing far enough to engage a notch far enough in to tighten
on the part. This should be apparent to anyone who has tried
one, but thought I would make sure.

Alan

I cannot imagine what you are doing to cause this problem from your
information supplied, but it is highly unusual. Please describe what you are
doing and how.
Steve

wrote in message
...
I have a Sherline vertical mill (the 5000 series) and I keep having a
problem with my aluminum workpiece pulling loose from the mill vise.
I have NEVER had very good luck getting the Sherline mill vise to hold
aluminum terribly well. Is this a deficiency of their mill vise?
Would a different mill vise solve the problem? Is it possible that .
010" cuts are too much?

On 2008-04-02, Steve Lusardi wrote:
wrote in message
...
I have a Sherline vertical mill (the 5000 series) and I keep having a
problem with my aluminum workpiece pulling loose from the mill vise.
I have NEVER had very good luck getting the Sherline mill vise to hold
aluminum terribly well. Is this a deficiency of their mill vise?
Would a different mill vise solve the problem? Is it possible that .
010" cuts are too much?

I cannot imagine what you are doing to cause this problem from your
information supplied, but it is highly unusual. Please describe what you are
doing and how.

I don't know whether there there was more to what you posted --
both quoted samples that I have seen have not shown more, so I don't
know whether the following applies or not.

If the workpiece is sticking out of the vise by a height in
excess of perhaps four times the height of the jaw grip, then there is a
major problem with leverage working against you.

If you are trying to hold something withoutparallel faces
against the jaws, such as round stock stood on end in the milling vise,
there is a great chance that it will slip under cutting forces -- even
on a machine as small as a Sherline.

A rectangular workpiece is better held with the wide dimension
across the width of the vise, and the end resting on the bottom of the
vise.

A workpiece with an irregular surface in contact with the jaws
is more likely to slip, because there is really very little material in
direct contact with the jaws. This can be helped somewhat by putting
cardboard between the workpiece and the jaw surface so it produces a
larger contact patch.

So yes, more detail about the workpiece and how you are
attempting to hold it would help us to figure out what is wrong.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

wrote in message
...
I have a Sherline vertical mill (the 5000 series) and I keep having a
problem with my aluminum workpiece pulling loose from the mill vise.
I have NEVER had very good luck getting the Sherline mill vise to hold
aluminum terribly well. Is this a deficiency of their mill vise?
Would a different mill vise solve the problem? Is it possible that .
010" cuts are too much?


I use a sherline vise on my Emco Compact 5 milling adapter.
It gets lots of use and has never let me down.

On Wed, 2 Apr 2008 13:08:51 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I have a Sherline vertical mill (the 5000 series) and I keep having a
problem with my aluminum workpiece pulling loose from the mill vise.
I have NEVER had very good luck getting the Sherline mill vise to hold
aluminum terribly well. Is this a deficiency of their mill vise?
Would a different mill vise solve the problem? Is it possible that .
010" cuts are too much?
==============
How big an end mill are you using? Feeds? Speeds?

One trick to hold relatively smooth work pieces in a vice with
smooth jaws or on a smooth faceplate is to insert a piece of
rough brown paper as from a paper bag. In general the paper is
uniform in thickness so parallelism to the fixed jaw should not
be affected. It can be helpful to put a rod in between the part
and movable jaw parallel to the base so the part will be clamped
square to the fixed jaw and not lifted by any tilt of the movable
jaw.

I have not tried this my self (brown paper was always enough),
but some of my shaper books suggest using worn emery paper in
place of the brown paper for even more "bite."




Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

On 2 Apr 2008 21:41:32 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2008-04-02, Steve Lusardi wrote:
wrote in message
...
I have a Sherline vertical mill (the 5000 series) and I keep having a
problem with my aluminum workpiece pulling loose from the mill vise.
I have NEVER had very good luck getting the Sherline mill vise to hold
aluminum terribly well. Is this a deficiency of their mill vise?
Would a different mill vise solve the problem? Is it possible that .
010" cuts are too much?

I cannot imagine what you are doing to cause this problem from your
information supplied, but it is highly unusual. Please describe what you are
doing and how.

I don't know whether there there was more to what you posted --
both quoted samples that I have seen have not shown more, so I don't
know whether the following applies or not.

If the workpiece is sticking out of the vise by a height in
excess of perhaps four times the height of the jaw grip, then there is a
major problem with leverage working against you.

If you are trying to hold something withoutparallel faces
against the jaws, such as round stock stood on end in the milling vise,
there is a great chance that it will slip under cutting forces -- even
on a machine as small as a Sherline.

A rectangular workpiece is better held with the wide dimension
across the width of the vise, and the end resting on the bottom of the
vise.

A workpiece with an irregular surface in contact with the jaws
is more likely to slip, because there is really very little material in
direct contact with the jaws. This can be helped somewhat by putting
cardboard between the workpiece and the jaw surface so it produces a
larger contact patch.

So yes, more detail about the workpiece and how you are
attempting to hold it would help us to figure out what is wrong.

Good Luck,
DoN.
===============
Good observation/question.

I had assumed (and so apparently had everyone else) that the
problem was a rectangular part in the vise, for no good reason.

It may indeed be round, irregular, etc.

Question to original poster -- what is the shape of the aluminum
piece you are trying to clamp?


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

The emery paper method works well also for clamping several pieces at a time
for gang milling, when there is a few thousandths difference between the
width/diameter of the parts. The emery cloth will hold it well. At work, we
hold 5 pieces of 7/8" bronze round stock about 4" long standing on end in
the 2" deep vise, and mill wrench flats on the upper portion of the rods
with a horizontal mill, using 1/2"X4" dual cutters and an abuttment stop to
help keep them from leaning over from the feed pressure. This will not hold
the parts without the emery cloth. One or more will always be loose in the
vise jaws.

RJ

"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 2 Apr 2008 13:08:51 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I have a Sherline vertical mill (the 5000 series) and I keep having a
problem with my aluminum workpiece pulling loose from the mill vise.
I have NEVER had very good luck getting the Sherline mill vise to hold
aluminum terribly well. Is this a deficiency of their mill vise?
Would a different mill vise solve the problem? Is it possible that .
010" cuts are too much?
==============
How big an end mill are you using? Feeds? Speeds?

One trick to hold relatively smooth work pieces in a vice with
smooth jaws or on a smooth faceplate is to insert a piece of
rough brown paper as from a paper bag. In general the paper is
uniform in thickness so parallelism to the fixed jaw should not
be affected. It can be helpful to put a rod in between the part
and movable jaw parallel to the base so the part will be clamped
square to the fixed jaw and not lifted by any tilt of the movable
jaw.

I have not tried this my self (brown paper was always enough),
but some of my shaper books suggest using worn emery paper in
place of the brown paper for even more "bite."




Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

On Apr 2, 6:10 pm, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee-
associates.us wrote:
On 2 Apr 2008 21:41:32 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:



On 2008-04-02, Steve Lusardi wrote:
wrote in message
...
I have a Sherline vertical mill (the 5000 series) and I keep having a
problem with my aluminum workpiece pulling loose from the mill vise.
I have NEVER had very good luck getting the Sherline mill vise to hold
aluminum terribly well. Is this a deficiency of their mill vise?
Would a different mill vise solve the problem? Is it possible that .
010" cuts are too much?

I cannot imagine what you are doing to cause this problem from your
information supplied, but it is highly unusual. Please describe what you are
doing and how.

I don't know whether there there was more to what you posted --
both quoted samples that I have seen have not shown more, so I don't
know whether the following applies or not.

If the workpiece is sticking out of the vise by a height in
excess of perhaps four times the height of the jaw grip, then there is a
major problem with leverage working against you.

If you are trying to hold something withoutparallel faces
against the jaws, such as round stock stood on end in the milling vise,
there is a great chance that it will slip under cutting forces -- even
on a machine as small as a Sherline.

A rectangular workpiece is better held with the wide dimension
across the width of the vise, and the end resting on the bottom of the
vise.

A workpiece with an irregular surface in contact with the jaws
is more likely to slip, because there is really very little material in
direct contact with the jaws. This can be helped somewhat by putting
cardboard between the workpiece and the jaw surface so it produces a
larger contact patch.

So yes, more detail about the workpiece and how you are
attempting to hold it would help us to figure out what is wrong.

Good Luck,
DoN.

===============
Good observation/question.

I had assumed (and so apparently had everyone else) that the
problem was a rectangular part in the vise, for no good reason.

It may indeed be round, irregular, etc.

Question to original poster -- what is the shape of the aluminum
piece you are trying to clamp?

Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

Square workpiece.

On Apr 2, 4:01 pm, "NewsGroups" spar@plaus wrote:
wrote in message

...

I have a Sherline vertical mill (the 5000 series) and I keep having a
problem with my aluminum workpiece pulling loose from the mill vise.
I have NEVER had very good luck getting the Sherline mill vise to hold
aluminum terribly well. Is this a deficiency of their mill vise?
Would a different mill vise solve the problem? Is it possible that .
010" cuts are too much?

I use a sherline vise on my Emco Compact 5 milling adapter.
It gets lots of use and has never let me down.

Is this perhaps a problem of a worn out vise? I bought the mill with
this vise, used (very used).
I will try the proposed technique for improving clamping with some
fine sandpaper between the
workpiece and the jaws.

On Apr 2, 4:40 pm, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee-
associates.us wrote:
On Wed, 2 Apr 2008 13:08:51 -0700 (PDT),

wrote:
I have a Sherline vertical mill (the 5000 series) and I keep having a
problem with my aluminum workpiece pulling loose from the mill vise.
I have NEVER had very good luck getting the Sherline mill vise to hold
aluminum terribly well. Is this a deficiency of their mill vise?
Would a different mill vise solve the problem? Is it possible that .
010" cuts are too much?

==============
How big an end mill are you using? Feeds? Speeds?

One trick to hold relatively smooth work pieces in a vice with
smooth jaws or on a smooth faceplate is to insert a piece of
rough brown paper as from a paper bag. In general the paper is
uniform in thickness so parallelism to the fixed jaw should not
be affected. It can be helpful to put a rod in between the part
and movable jaw parallel to the base so the part will be clamped
square to the fixed jaw and not lifted by any tilt of the movable
jaw.

I have not tried this my self (brown paper was always enough),
but some of my shaper books suggest using worn emery paper in
place of the brown paper for even more "bite."

Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

I tried to use both a 3/4" and a 3/8" end mill, two flute, without
success. I tried
very low speeds (a few hundred RPM) and very high. I tried even .005"
slices. I'm told
that I may need to use more aggressive cuts to prevent the end mill
form just smearing
the material.

On Apr 2, 3:41 pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2008-04-02, Steve Lusardi wrote:

wrote in message
...
I have a Sherline vertical mill (the 5000 series) and I keep having a
problem with my aluminum workpiece pulling loose from the mill vise.
I have NEVER had very good luck getting the Sherline mill vise to hold
aluminum terribly well. Is this a deficiency of their mill vise?
Would a different mill vise solve the problem? Is it possible that .
010" cuts are too much?
I cannot imagine what you are doing to cause this problem from your
information supplied, but it is highly unusual. Please describe what you are
doing and how.

I don't know whether there there was more to what you posted --
both quoted samples that I have seen have not shown more, so I don't
know whether the following applies or not.

If the workpiece is sticking out of the vise by a height in
excess of perhaps four times the height of the jaw grip, then there is a
major problem with leverage working against you.



Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. |http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Good catch. I put in a piece of 6061 scrap that I cut off the
workpiece with a bandsaw, one
small enough that it was just barely above the jaws--and I was able to
run an end mill across the
surface just fine. At .010" slices, it worked just great--not a
single snag, stoppage, or loosening.
I tried one pass at .015" and while it didn't stop, I could see that
this was the upper limit of what
I could do.

When I turned that scrap on end, so that there was about 3" sticking
above the jaws, the old
problems started to appear.

So, does this mean that if you have a workpiece that is fairly big,
you should get yourself a mill
vise with very tall jaws? Does someone make a mill vise for
micromills with varying height jaws?

Obviously, you should turn a workpiece the direction required to get
maximum grip from the jaws, and
mill vertically rather than horizontally--but sometimes that's just
not possible.

You can add a vise stop to the end of your vise on the fixed jaw by drilling
and tapping a hole for a flat plate retained by a bolt. This sticks up above
the vise jaws and provides a physical stop for the thrust pressure of
milling. Another bolt with a locknut tapped into the upper part of the stop
provides localized pressure at the top edge of the plate. A horizontal mill
can snatch items right out of the vice without using this type of endstop to
take the forces. A Bridgeport generally pushes parts over more slowly, but
can bust a cutter for you..

RJ

wrote in message
...
On Apr 2, 3:41 pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2008-04-02, Steve Lusardi wrote:

wrote in message
...
I have a Sherline vertical mill (the 5000 series) and I keep having a
problem with my aluminum workpiece pulling loose from the mill vise.
I have NEVER had very good luck getting the Sherline mill vise to hold
aluminum terribly well. Is this a deficiency of their mill vise?
Would a different mill vise solve the problem? Is it possible that .
010" cuts are too much?
I cannot imagine what you are doing to cause this problem from your
information supplied, but it is highly unusual. Please describe what
you are
doing and how.

I don't know whether there there was more to what you posted --
both quoted samples that I have seen have not shown more, so I don't
know whether the following applies or not.

If the workpiece is sticking out of the vise by a height in
excess of perhaps four times the height of the jaw grip, then there is a
major problem with leverage working against you.



Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C.
|http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Good catch. I put in a piece of 6061 scrap that I cut off the
workpiece with a bandsaw, one
small enough that it was just barely above the jaws--and I was able to
run an end mill across the
surface just fine. At .010" slices, it worked just great--not a
single snag, stoppage, or loosening.
I tried one pass at .015" and while it didn't stop, I could see that
this was the upper limit of what
I could do.

When I turned that scrap on end, so that there was about 3" sticking
above the jaws, the old
problems started to appear.

So, does this mean that if you have a workpiece that is fairly big,
you should get yourself a mill
vise with very tall jaws? Does someone make a mill vise for
micromills with varying height jaws?

Obviously, you should turn a workpiece the direction required to get
maximum grip from the jaws, and
mill vertically rather than horizontally--but sometimes that's just
not possible.

On Apr 5, 11:04 am, "Backlash" wrote:
You can add a vise stop to the end of your vise on the fixed jaw by drilling
and tapping a hole for a flat plate retained by a bolt. This sticks up above
the vise jaws and provides a physical stop for the thrust pressure of
milling. Another bolt with a locknut tapped into the upper part of the stop
provides localized pressure at the top edge of the plate. A horizontal mill
can snatch items right out of the vice without using this type of endstop to
take the forces. A Bridgeport generally pushes parts over more slowly, but
can bust a cutter for you..

RJ

Help me to visualize this a bit more. The vise has jaws held in place
by a few screws.
I can replace the current jaws with a plate that uses the same
threads, but goes up several
inches higher than the current jaws. What's this "bolt with a locknut
tapped into the
upper part of the stop"? What does this bolt screw into?

On Apr 5, 11:04 am, "Backlash" wrote:
You can add a vise stop to the end of your vise on the fixed jaw by drilling
and tapping a hole for a flat plate retained by a bolt. This sticks up above
the vise jaws and provides a physical stop for the thrust pressure of
milling. Another bolt with a locknut tapped into the upper part of the stop
provides localized pressure at the top edge of the plate. A horizontal mill
can snatch items right out of the vice without using this type of endstop to
take the forces. A Bridgeport generally pushes parts over more slowly, but
can bust a cutter for you..

RJ

Found an example he http://davehylands.com/Machinist/Mod...06-In-Use.html.
Thanks!

On Sat, 5 Apr 2008 08:51:48 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Apr 2, 3:41 pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2008-04-02, Steve Lusardi wrote:

wrote in message
...
I have a Sherline vertical mill (the 5000 series) and I keep having a
problem with my aluminum workpiece pulling loose from the mill vise.
I have NEVER had very good luck getting the Sherline mill vise to hold
aluminum terribly well. Is this a deficiency of their mill vise?
Would a different mill vise solve the problem? Is it possible that .
010" cuts are too much?
I cannot imagine what you are doing to cause this problem from your
information supplied, but it is highly unusual. Please describe what you are
doing and how.

I don't know whether there there was more to what you posted --
both quoted samples that I have seen have not shown more, so I don't
know whether the following applies or not.

If the workpiece is sticking out of the vise by a height in
excess of perhaps four times the height of the jaw grip, then there is a
major problem with leverage working against you.



Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. |http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Good catch. I put in a piece of 6061 scrap that I cut off the
workpiece with a bandsaw, one
small enough that it was just barely above the jaws--and I was able to
run an end mill across the
surface just fine. At .010" slices, it worked just great--not a
single snag, stoppage, or loosening.
I tried one pass at .015" and while it didn't stop, I could see that
this was the upper limit of what
I could do.

When I turned that scrap on end, so that there was about 3" sticking
above the jaws, the old
problems started to appear.

So, does this mean that if you have a workpiece that is fairly big,
you should get yourself a mill
vise with very tall jaws? Does someone make a mill vise for
micromills with varying height jaws?

Obviously, you should turn a workpiece the direction required to get
maximum grip from the jaws, and
mill vertically rather than horizontally--but sometimes that's just
not possible.


And always..always mill into the fixed jaw direction if you have a
sloppy vise

Gunner



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

You got the idea! This will also allow you to repeat position parts in
the mill vise. It's one of the handiest things I use on the mills. The one I
poorly described is a piece of 3/8" flatbar bolted to the fixed jaw of the
vise to protrude several inches above the jaws. An allen head bolt is tapped
into the upper portion, in line with the direction of the table travel. A
locking nut holds the bolt tight, but lets it protrude into the vise work
area, a couple of inches above the jaws. The upper bolt acts as the actual
stop, since it is now adjustable. I have one cut to shape to allow straddle
cutters to pass over and around it while it supports tall pieces on a
horizontal mill.

RJ

wrote in message
...
On Apr 5, 11:04 am, "Backlash" wrote:
You can add a vise stop to the end of your vise on the fixed jaw by
drilling
and tapping a hole for a flat plate retained by a bolt. This sticks up
above
the vise jaws and provides a physical stop for the thrust pressure of
milling. Another bolt with a locknut tapped into the upper part of the
stop
provides localized pressure at the top edge of the plate. A horizontal
mill
can snatch items right out of the vice without using this type of endstop
to
take the forces. A Bridgeport generally pushes parts over more slowly,
but
can bust a cutter for you..

RJ

Found an example he
http://davehylands.com/Machinist/Mod...06-In-Use.html.
Thanks!