Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Shrinking a flat leather belt

Hello all,

I have a 13" SB with a flat leather belt which was a lot of trouble to
skive and glue just right. Which I don't want to go through again.

Problem is that the doggone thing has stretched just a bit and is
loose enough to slip. The tension adjust is all the way down. It
*will* cut but usually slips on an 0.05" depth cut in aluminum with
lubricant if I feed too hard.

Is there some simple method for shrinking the belt a bit, or otherwise
keeping it from slipping? *Besides* cut-the-belt-and-reglue.

Thanks -- Terry
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Default Shrinking a flat leather belt

Terry fired this volley in
:
Is there some simple method for shrinking the belt a bit, or otherwise
keeping it from slipping? *Besides* cut-the-belt-and-reglue.


Gator lacing. Cut, yes. Glue, no.

LLoyd
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Default Shrinking a flat leather belt

In article ,
Terry wrote:

Is there some simple method for shrinking the belt a bit, or otherwise
keeping it from slipping? *Besides* cut-the-belt-and-reglue.


Clip on lacing does nicely, and replaced the whole skive and glue
process for most people several decades ago. Having a set re-done on a
2-1/2" wide belt at the local power transmission belt shop was all of
$12 the last time I needed to.

You could perhaps try to rig a tensioning wheel (preferably on outside
of belt, pressing in under spring pressure - thus increasing belt
contact on the pulleys - but if there's no way for that to work, it
could pull the other way).

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
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Default Shrinking a flat leather belt

On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 06:41:40 -0500, Terry wrote:

Hello all,

I have a 13" SB with a flat leather belt which was a lot of trouble to
skive and glue just right. Which I don't want to go through again.

Problem is that the doggone thing has stretched just a bit and is
loose enough to slip. The tension adjust is all the way down. It
*will* cut but usually slips on an 0.05" depth cut in aluminum with
lubricant if I feed too hard.

Is there some simple method for shrinking the belt a bit, or otherwise
keeping it from slipping? *Besides* cut-the-belt-and-reglue.

Thanks -- Terry


Make one of the pulleys a bit bigger.

Got any extra leather?
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Default Shrinking a flat leather belt

On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 13:30:33 GMT, Ecnerwal
wrote:

In article ,
Terry wrote:

Is there some simple method for shrinking the belt a bit, or otherwise
keeping it from slipping? *Besides* cut-the-belt-and-reglue.


Clip on lacing does nicely, and replaced the whole skive and glue
process for most people several decades ago. Having a set re-done on a
2-1/2" wide belt at the local power transmission belt shop was all of
$12 the last time I needed to.


Hi Lawrence,

A couple years back I bought a synthetic belt with clips and pin.
Maybe it wasn't done right, maybe it was the phase of the moon, maybe
the material just wasn't as strong as was touted. But after about a
month of use, one of the clips ripped out of the belt.

And I never liked the periodic clup-clup-clup of the clip over the
pulleys but that's probably just me.

Since then I've skived and glued.

I've also tried belt spray that is supposed to make the belt a little
stickier. Not a whole lotta help.

Thanks for the ideas, I do appreciate them. Keep em coming!

Best -- Terriy


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Default Shrinking a flat leather belt

My belts shrink as I age.
Beer & pizza seem to do that to me.

But seriously folks........
Every piece of leather I have owned has shrunk down when wetted and dried.

A wet belt on steel pullys sounds...........bad, so, I would ponder a
drying rack just smaller than the current belt.

just a thought.

mark

"Terry" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

I have a 13" SB with a flat leather belt which was a lot of trouble to
skive and glue just right. Which I don't want to go through again.

Problem is that the doggone thing has stretched just a bit and is
loose enough to slip. The tension adjust is all the way down. It
*will* cut but usually slips on an 0.05" depth cut in aluminum with
lubricant if I feed too hard.

Is there some simple method for shrinking the belt a bit, or otherwise
keeping it from slipping? *Besides* cut-the-belt-and-reglue.

Thanks -- Terry




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Default Shrinking a flat leather belt

Terry wrote:
On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 13:30:33 GMT, Ecnerwal
wrote:


In article ,
Terry wrote:


Is there some simple method for shrinking the belt a bit, or otherwise
keeping it from slipping? *Besides* cut-the-belt-and-reglue.


Clip on lacing does nicely, and replaced the whole skive and glue
process for most people several decades ago. Having a set re-done on a
2-1/2" wide belt at the local power transmission belt shop was all of
$12 the last time I needed to.



Hi Lawrence,

A couple years back I bought a synthetic belt with clips and pin.
Maybe it wasn't done right, maybe it was the phase of the moon, maybe
the material just wasn't as strong as was touted. But after about a
month of use, one of the clips ripped out of the belt.

And I never liked the periodic clup-clup-clup of the clip over the
pulleys but that's probably just me.

Since then I've skived and glued.

I've also tried belt spray that is supposed to make the belt a little
stickier. Not a whole lotta help.

Thanks for the ideas, I do appreciate them. Keep em coming!

Best -- Terriy


Pull the spindle, replace leather with a serpntine belt from teh auto
parts place, and get on with never having to do it again. (and if you DO
have to do it again, you will know how!)

Cheers
Trevor Jones

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Default Shrinking a flat leather belt

I've never had a belts clips pull out, and done properly theres no
clup-clup-clup, of course if you don't know how to properly clip a belt
thats an obstacle.


"Terry" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 13:30:33 GMT, Ecnerwal
wrote:

In article ,
Terry wrote:

Is there some simple method for shrinking the belt a bit, or otherwise
keeping it from slipping? *Besides* cut-the-belt-and-reglue.


Clip on lacing does nicely, and replaced the whole skive and glue
process for most people several decades ago. Having a set re-done on a
2-1/2" wide belt at the local power transmission belt shop was all of
$12 the last time I needed to.


Hi Lawrence,

A couple years back I bought a synthetic belt with clips and pin.
Maybe it wasn't done right, maybe it was the phase of the moon, maybe
the material just wasn't as strong as was touted. But after about a
month of use, one of the clips ripped out of the belt.

And I never liked the periodic clup-clup-clup of the clip over the
pulleys but that's probably just me.

Since then I've skived and glued.

I've also tried belt spray that is supposed to make the belt a little
stickier. Not a whole lotta help.

Thanks for the ideas, I do appreciate them. Keep em coming!

Best -- Terriy


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Default Shrinking a flat leather belt

Disassembling the headstock is a big workaround for a novices. I also prefer
the stretch that a nylon/rubber belt has when tensioning, as opposed to an
automotive belt, due to the steel cords inside, probably has little stretch
to it.

"Trevor Jones" wrote in message
news:iMsWi.33$XF6.18@edtnps90...
Terry wrote:
On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 13:30:33 GMT, Ecnerwal
wrote:


In article ,
Terry wrote:


Is there some simple method for shrinking the belt a bit, or otherwise
keeping it from slipping? *Besides* cut-the-belt-and-reglue.

Clip on lacing does nicely, and replaced the whole skive and glue process
for most people several decades ago. Having a set re-done on a 2-1/2"
wide belt at the local power transmission belt shop was all of $12 the
last time I needed to.



Hi Lawrence,

A couple years back I bought a synthetic belt with clips and pin.
Maybe it wasn't done right, maybe it was the phase of the moon, maybe
the material just wasn't as strong as was touted. But after about a
month of use, one of the clips ripped out of the belt.

And I never liked the periodic clup-clup-clup of the clip over the
pulleys but that's probably just me.

Since then I've skived and glued.

I've also tried belt spray that is supposed to make the belt a little
stickier. Not a whole lotta help.

Thanks for the ideas, I do appreciate them. Keep em coming!

Best -- Terriy


Pull the spindle, replace leather with a serpntine belt from teh auto
parts place, and get on with never having to do it again. (and if you DO
have to do it again, you will know how!)

Cheers
Trevor Jones


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Default Shrinking a flat leather belt

On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 13:30:33 GMT, Ecnerwal
wrote:

In article ,
Terry wrote:

Is there some simple method for shrinking the belt a bit, or otherwise
keeping it from slipping? *Besides* cut-the-belt-and-reglue.


Clip on lacing does nicely, and replaced the whole skive and glue
process for most people several decades ago. Having a set re-done on a
2-1/2" wide belt at the local power transmission belt shop was all of
$12 the last time I needed to.

You could perhaps try to rig a tensioning wheel (preferably on outside
of belt, pressing in under spring pressure - thus increasing belt
contact on the pulleys - but if there's no way for that to work, it
could pull the other way).


Question: Doesn't the motor have some method of adjusting tension?
Most machinery I have seen that were belt driven had some method or
tightening the belts as even though a belt is "exactly" the same size
as another the actual dimensions may vary slightly. Vee belts can be
purchased in "matched sets" for exactly this reason.

Bruce-in-Bangkok
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address is a spam trap)


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Default Shrinking a flat leather belt

Tony wrote:

Disassembling the headstock is a big workaround for a novices. I also
prefer the stretch that a nylon/rubber belt has when tensioning, as
opposed to an automotive belt, due to the steel cords inside, probably
has little stretch to it.


Ayup!

Nobody ever learned anything useful, sitting on their hands.

Now, if I read this right, you "prefer" stretch in your belts, yet the
problem is stretch in your belt. WTF???

Take the effin thing apart, put on a serpentine belt, and be done with
it. Or **** around with stretching belts for the rest of your days. If
yer really feeling the need to dink around, to make the trip into the
headstock worthwhile, convert the pulleys to Poly-V belt grooves, and
have silence and power!

Dunno where you buy your belts, but I have never found a fan belt or
serpentine, with steel in it.
For the number of them I have cut while stripping down or otherwise
working on any of my long string of beater vehicles, I think I'd have
run across one or two.

Cheers
Trevor Jones



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Put a rubber skirt over one of your pullies... A cut of inter-tube
just the right size works just fine...

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On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 22:51:58 GMT, Trevor Jones
wrote:
\
Pull the spindle, replace leather with a serpntine belt from teh auto
parts place, and get on with never having to do it again. (and if you DO
have to do it again, you will know how!)

Cheers
Trevor Jones


Trevor, I'd love to be able to do that. But on this 13" lathe, the
belt runs through slots in the headstock casting. A cut and glued
belt, or spliced, or whatever, is the only kind that works.

Thanks -- Terry
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On Thu, 1 Nov 2007 21:12:42 -0400, "Tony" wrote:

I've never had a belts clips pull out, and done properly theres no
clup-clup-clup, of course if you don't know how to properly clip a belt
thats an obstacle.

Hi Tony, I bought the old belt with clips and pin already installed.
As I said, maybe they weren't installed right. Maybe I put too much
tension on the belt. It was over a year ago and I don't remember much
except that the clips ripped out and I was unhappy.

Best -- Terry
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On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 08:45:25 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

Question: Doesn't the motor have some method of adjusting tension?
Most machinery I have seen that were belt driven had some method or
tightening the belts as even though a belt is "exactly" the same size
as another the actual dimensions may vary slightly. Vee belts can be
purchased in "matched sets" for exactly this reason.

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(Note:displayed e-mail
address is a spam trap)


Hi Bruce, yep, it's got a big nut-n-threaded-rod for adjusting
tension. Which is adjusted all the way out---it's as tight as I can
make it.

Best -- Terry


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On Thu, 1 Nov 2007 16:34:37 -0400, "Mark Dunning"
wrote:

My belts shrink as I age.
Beer & pizza seem to do that to me.

But seriously folks........
Every piece of leather I have owned has shrunk down when wetted and dried.

A wet belt on steel pullys sounds...........bad, so, I would ponder a
drying rack just smaller than the current belt.

just a thought.

mark


Mark, thank you tremendously! I had forgotten that leather shrinks
when wetted. That sounds like exactly the kind of idea I'm looking
for. I'll give it a try.

Thanks again! -- Terry
....whose other belts are lengthening, just slightly, due to a change
in diet...
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I dunno, if serp belts were so great why didn't the factory put them there
in the first place.


Now, if I read this right, you "prefer" stretch in your belts, yet the
problem is stretch in your belt. WTF???


The problem the OP had was his belt was loose. Nylon/Rubber flat belting has
stretch meaning the belt provides continous tension as the tensioning handle
cams over, as opposes to a belt with very little stretch (or give), and the
tensioning handle cams over with a clunk.

I've never had to re-clip nylon/rubber belt for stretching beyond the point
where it didn't provide sufficient tension, as opposed to leather belts that
keep lengthening.

Automotive belts belong on car engines, their too narrow anyway for cone
pulleys. And V-grooving a cone pulley? thats a bloody abortion.


Take the effin thing apart, put on a serpentine belt, and be done with
it. Or **** around with stretching belts for the rest of your days. If yer
really feeling the need to dink around, to make the trip into the
headstock worthwhile, convert the pulleys to Poly-V belt grooves, and have
silence and power!


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On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 20:06:23 -0500, Terry
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 08:45:25 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

Question: Doesn't the motor have some method of adjusting tension?
Most machinery I have seen that were belt driven had some method or
tightening the belts as even though a belt is "exactly" the same size
as another the actual dimensions may vary slightly. Vee belts can be
purchased in "matched sets" for exactly this reason.

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(Note:displayed e-mail
address is a spam trap)


Hi Bruce, yep, it's got a big nut-n-threaded-rod for adjusting
tension. Which is adjusted all the way out---it's as tight as I can
make it.

Best -- Terry



Then you need to cut it and glue in a section. I assume that if you
previously spliced it you already have the clamps and skiving guide so
it shouldn't be a tremendous job -- providing you have a short length
of belting left from last time.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
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leather will just keep getting longer under tension. Just go to a belting
supply place and get a nylon/rubber belt of the proper length. They are even
selling custom cut lathe belts on ebay.

"Terry" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 1 Nov 2007 16:34:37 -0400, "Mark Dunning"
wrote:

My belts shrink as I age.
Beer & pizza seem to do that to me.

But seriously folks........
Every piece of leather I have owned has shrunk down when wetted and dried.

A wet belt on steel pullys sounds...........bad, so, I would ponder a
drying rack just smaller than the current belt.

just a thought.

mark


Mark, thank you tremendously! I had forgotten that leather shrinks
when wetted. That sounds like exactly the kind of idea I'm looking
for. I'll give it a try.

Thanks again! -- Terry
...whose other belts are lengthening, just slightly, due to a change
in diet...


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Tony wrote:
I dunno, if serp belts were so great why didn't the factory put them
there in the first place.

Because state of the art back in the 1920' or '30's, when these were
coming off the line for the first time, was flat leather. Cheap,
effectice enough, and available at every hardware store.

Sorta like the Blacksmith said. If they had had electric welders in
grandfather's day, you can bloody well bet that he'd have used one!

During their later years of production, SB put vee belts on their
lathes. You would get one more set of ratios that way.


Now, if I read this right, you "prefer" stretch in your belts, yet
the problem is stretch in your belt. WTF???



The problem the OP had was his belt was loose. Nylon/Rubber flat belting
has stretch meaning the belt provides continous tension as the
tensioning handle cams over, as opposes to a belt with very little
stretch (or give), and the tensioning handle cams over with a clunk.


Sorry Tony, mistook you for the original poster!

I've never had to re-clip nylon/rubber belt for stretching beyond the
point where it didn't provide sufficient tension, as opposed to leather
belts that keep lengthening.


Ayup! Leather. Good for a museum display, or a test of patience and
resolve, not to mention financial means.

Automotive belts belong on car engines, their too narrow anyway for cone
pulleys. And V-grooving a cone pulley? thats a bloody abortion.


Suit yourself.

I figure that a poy-v belt conversion will only have to be done once.
Don't want to cut grooves in the original parts? Make a new pulley. If
you leave a spare belt under the lathe bench, your inheritors can figure
out what to do with it. If you leave the original pulley under the
bench, they will wonder why you bothered.

Better, IMO, a tool that can be used, than one that cannot.

A friend has a SB9 with a automotive timing belt running on the flat
belt pulleys. No problems with the noise, and he can stall out the 1/2
horse before it slips

Cheers
Trevor Jones



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Terry wrote:

On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 22:51:58 GMT, Trevor Jones
wrote:
\

Pull the spindle, replace leather with a serpntine belt from teh auto
parts place, and get on with never having to do it again. (and if you DO
have to do it again, you will know how!)

Cheers
Trevor Jones



Trevor, I'd love to be able to do that. But on this 13" lathe, the
belt runs through slots in the headstock casting. A cut and glued
belt, or spliced, or whatever, is the only kind that works.

Thanks -- Terry


At one point, Harley D. was using a toothed belt that had a skive
across the face of the belt, for final drive on some of their bikes.

They used a set if screws, across the face, running inside the teeth
lugs on the belts, but otherwise pretty much Identical to the type of
toothed belt used in timing belt applications.

Dunno if they are still using them or not.

If I were stuck like that, I would way rather glue and stitch the
belt, than listen to the clip clunking it's way around. YMMV.


Cheers
Trevor Jones

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"Terry" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

I have a 13" SB with a flat leather belt which was a lot of trouble to
skive and glue just right. Which I don't want to go through again.

Problem is that the doggone thing has stretched just a bit and is
loose enough to slip. The tension adjust is all the way down. It
*will* cut but usually slips on an 0.05" depth cut in aluminum with
lubricant if I feed too hard.

Is there some simple method for shrinking the belt a bit, or otherwise
keeping it from slipping? *Besides* cut-the-belt-and-reglue.

Thanks -- Terry

Maybe you have already ruled it out but it might be possible to make a small
mechanical modification such as a longer rod, longer slot, or a shim of some
sort to slightly increase your adjustment range.

Don Young


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During their later years of production, SB put vee belts on their lathes.
You would get one more set of ratios that way.


The V-belts are from the motor to the countershaft, not on the cone pulleys.
The reason for flat belts are to make it easier for the operator to change
speeds.

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Pull the spindle, replace leather with a serpntine belt from teh auto
parts place, and get on with never having to do it again. (and if you DO
have to do it again, you will know how!)

Cheers
Trevor Jones



Kinda reminds me of the old joke, how many insert nationality does it take
to change a lightbulb? One to hold the belt, and a few to take apart the
headstock. :^)

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On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 20:01:15 -0500, Terry
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 22:51:58 GMT, Trevor Jones
wrote:
\
Pull the spindle, replace leather with a serpntine belt from teh auto
parts place, and get on with never having to do it again. (and if you DO
have to do it again, you will know how!)

Cheers
Trevor Jones


Trevor, I'd love to be able to do that. But on this 13" lathe, the
belt runs through slots in the headstock casting. A cut and glued
belt, or spliced, or whatever, is the only kind that works.

Thanks -- Terry



Why not make a simple tensioner?

All you need is another pulley and a spring or a brick.


Gunner


"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so
would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining
power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The
problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group,
they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of
wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some
want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second
Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting
rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture
that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political
correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the
competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr


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On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 01:36:09 GMT, Trevor Jones
wrote:

Terry wrote:

On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 22:51:58 GMT, Trevor Jones
wrote:
\

Pull the spindle, replace leather with a serpntine belt from teh auto
parts place, and get on with never having to do it again. (and if you DO
have to do it again, you will know how!)

Cheers
Trevor Jones



Trevor, I'd love to be able to do that. But on this 13" lathe, the
belt runs through slots in the headstock casting. A cut and glued
belt, or spliced, or whatever, is the only kind that works.

Thanks -- Terry


At one point, Harley D. was using a toothed belt that had a skive
across the face of the belt, for final drive on some of their bikes.

They used a set if screws, across the face, running inside the teeth
lugs on the belts, but otherwise pretty much Identical to the type of
toothed belt used in timing belt applications.

Dunno if they are still using them or not.

If I were stuck like that, I would way rather glue and stitch the
belt, than listen to the clip clunking it's way around. YMMV.


Cheers
Trevor Jones



If you want synthetic belting one idea (that may or not work) is to
talk to some conveyer belt people. They make conveyer belting in all
kinds of material and nearly all of them are bonded together.

I don't want to be sarcastic, but I worked in a shop as an apprentice
boy where the whole shop was run by overhead shafts and leather belts.
They do work and they aren't difficult to maintain.






Bruce-in-Bangkok
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Tony wrote:

During their later years of production, SB put vee belts on their
lathes. You would get one more set of ratios that way.


The V-belts are from the motor to the countershaft, not on the cone
pulleys. The reason for flat belts are to make it easier for the
operator to change speeds.



No.

South Bend used V belts for both the countershafts (single and two
speed ones), and, IIRC they used the vee pulley on the motor, and ran
the belt on a flat surface of the countershaft pulley(s).

They used a four speed set of Vee pulleys on the cone pulleys on their
later production small lathes. This gave you four cone pulley speeds,
vice 3.

The ease of changing speeds theory pretty much went away at the same
time a requirement for fast and loose pulleys on the overhead did.

Regardless of whether the belt is flat or vee, you have to stop the
lathe, slack the belt, and change it's position, before restarting.

Take a look at http://www.lathes.co.uk/southbend9-inch/page2.html and
admire the variety of both flat and vee pulleys in the various mixes. :-)

Cheers
Trevor Jones

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Default Shrinking a flat leather belt

yes you are correct in that the small 9 "Workshop" model lathe had the
v-belt on the "cone pulley", but only that 1 machine, out of every other
lathe Southbend ever produced from the 9's up to the 16/24's.

When I visited Southbend many years ago I asked them why they did put the
V-belt on that model, and I was told that model was designed for the
hobbiest/novice, and the V-belt was something more familar to a novice, even
if it did hamper speed changes. And since there was only a small
countershaft assembly, if the lathe has to be dissasembled for moving, it
was an easy affair to slip the belt off the countershaft without cutting it,
as opposed to a full size motor cabinet where this would not be possible.


"Trevor Jones" wrote in message
news:FznXi.5792$h57.4272@edtnps89...
Tony wrote:

During their later years of production, SB put vee belts on their
lathes. You would get one more set of ratios that way.


The V-belts are from the motor to the countershaft, not on the cone
pulleys. The reason for flat belts are to make it easier for the operator
to change speeds.



No.

South Bend used V belts for both the countershafts (single and two speed
ones), and, IIRC they used the vee pulley on the motor, and ran the belt
on a flat surface of the countershaft pulley(s).

They used a four speed set of Vee pulleys on the cone pulleys on their
later production small lathes. This gave you four cone pulley speeds, vice
3.

The ease of changing speeds theory pretty much went away at the same time
a requirement for fast and loose pulleys on the overhead did.

Regardless of whether the belt is flat or vee, you have to stop the
lathe, slack the belt, and change it's position, before restarting.

Take a look at http://www.lathes.co.uk/southbend9-inch/page2.html and
admire the variety of both flat and vee pulleys in the various mixes. :-)

Cheers
Trevor Jones


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