I really want a Honda EB3800 wheelbarrow style generator but don't have $2K
to spend. I noticed this generator at the local HF:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=90300

It has a nice Robin Subaru engine driving a Made in China generator. I
realize this generator has two 2000W 120V circuits, instead of one 4000W
120V circuit. But I think that may be adequate for my needs--home backup
and occasional use at the job site (aka yard). While I wouldn't be using it
every day, I do want something that will last a long time. I have no doubt
the Subaru engine is up to the task, but I wonder about the generator head.

I have a 20% off coupon burning a hole in my pocket (from
harborfreightusa.com).

Any comments? Am I throwing my money away?

Can't say about the gen set per se, but the robin Suburu engine is a
great engine. A friend of ours bought two bright yellow gas powered
gen sets off Ebay, which are nothing more than cheap copies of the
typical honda motors and generator sets. In a pic they look great, but
up close they look very crude to say the least. He bought two just in
case......Well both those gen sets have been used hard, very hard in
fact and during huricane Ivan, they ran for weeks on end unti power
was restored.. Same with this past year and Katrina.......they work,
work fine, and seem to hold up. Me, I am still skeptical on china
made stuff, especialy when the distributor is next to impossible to
find as its ineviteable parts will be needed sometime or other.....

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:45:19 -0600, "AL" wrote:
I really want a Honda EB3800 wheelbarrow style generator but don't have $2K
to spend. I noticed this generator at the local HF:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=90300

It has a nice Robin Subaru engine driving a Made in China generator. I
realize this generator has two 2000W 120V circuits, instead of one 4000W
120V circuit. But I think that may be adequate for my needs--home backup
and occasional use at the job site (aka yard). While I wouldn't be using it
every day, I do want something that will last a long time. I have no doubt
the Subaru engine is up to the task, but I wonder about the generator head.

I have a 20% off coupon burning a hole in my pocket (from
harborfreightusa.com).

Any comments? Am I throwing my money away?


--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

"AL" wrote: (clip) this generator has two 2000W 120V circuits, instead of
one 4000W 120V circuit. But I think that may be adequate for my needs
(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Aren't those two things completely equivalent?

They're equivalent only if the two circuits are perfectly in phase and I
connected them in parallel. But they're not perfectly in phase.

Cheap generators provide two separate 120V circuits which are connected in
parallel to get 240V.

Fancy expensive generators like the Honda don't have this problem.

"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...

"AL" wrote: (clip) this generator has two 2000W 120V circuits, instead of
one 4000W 120V circuit. But I think that may be adequate for my needs
(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Aren't those two things completely equivalent?

Sorry, I mean to say "Cheap generators provide two separate 120V circuits
which are connected in SERIES to get 240V."

"AL" wrote in message
...
They're equivalent only if the two circuits are perfectly in phase and I
connected them in parallel. But they're not perfectly in phase.

Cheap generators provide two separate 120V circuits which are connected in
parallel to get 240V.

Fancy expensive generators like the Honda don't have this problem.

"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...

"AL" wrote: (clip) this generator has two 2000W 120V circuits, instead
of one 4000W 120V circuit. But I think that may be adequate for my
needs (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Aren't those two things completely equivalent?

Which is different than the expensive ones????

AL wrote:
Sorry, I mean to say "Cheap generators provide two separate 120V circuits
which are connected in SERIES to get 240V."

"AL" wrote in message
...

They're equivalent only if the two circuits are perfectly in phase and I
connected them in parallel. But they're not perfectly in phase.

Cheap generators provide two separate 120V circuits which are connected in
parallel to get 240V.

Fancy expensive generators like the Honda don't have this problem.

"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...

"AL" wrote: (clip) this generator has two 2000W 120V circuits, instead
of one 4000W 120V circuit. But I think that may be adequate for my
needs (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Aren't those two things completely equivalent?

Expensive generators like the Honda have a single 120V outlet (among other
outlets) capable of supplying the full output current of the generator.
This is useful for starting a table saw, air compressor, air conditioner,
etc.

"RoyJ" wrote in message
nk.net...
Which is different than the expensive ones????

AL wrote:
Sorry, I mean to say "Cheap generators provide two separate 120V circuits
which are connected in SERIES to get 240V."

"AL" wrote in message
...

They're equivalent only if the two circuits are perfectly in phase and I
connected them in parallel. But they're not perfectly in phase.

Cheap generators provide two separate 120V circuits which are connected
in parallel to get 240V.

Fancy expensive generators like the Honda don't have this problem.

"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...

"AL" wrote: (clip) this generator has two 2000W 120V circuits, instead
of one 4000W 120V circuit. But I think that may be adequate for my
needs (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Aren't those two things completely equivalent?

AL writes:

Sorry, I mean to say "Cheap generators provide two separate 120V
circuits which are connected in SERIES to get 240V."

What has that got to do with being cheap? Some applications call for both
120 and 240.

You snipped too much of my previous statements.

As I said, a cheap generator obtains 240V using a cost reduced method of
connecting two 120V circuits in series. As a consequence of this cheap
method of obtaining 240V, each 120V circuit is only capable of half of the
max output of the generator.

A fancy generator has a different type of winding, which allows max output
to be delivered to a single 120V circuit. In addition, it also has 240V.

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
AL writes:

Sorry, I mean to say "Cheap generators provide two separate 120V
circuits which are connected in SERIES to get 240V."

What has that got to do with being cheap? Some applications call for both
120 and 240.

AL wrote:

You snipped too much of my previous statements.

As I said, a cheap generator obtains 240V using a cost reduced method of
connecting two 120V circuits in series. As a consequence of this cheap
method of obtaining 240V, each 120V circuit is only capable of half of the
max output of the generator.

A fancy generator has a different type of winding, which allows max output
to be delivered to a single 120V circuit. In addition, it also has 240V.

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
AL writes:

Sorry, I mean to say "Cheap generators provide two separate 120V
circuits which are connected in SERIES to get 240V."

What has that got to do with being cheap? Some applications call for both
120 and 240.

I think you need to peruse the docs available on some of the major
generator manufacturers sites (Onan, Kohler, Generac, etc.) as you seem
to have a number of misunderstandings of the way alternators
(generators) are constructed.

All 120/240V single phase generators are composed of two 120V windings
in series which is the same as a 240V winding with a center tap. Some
120/240V single phase generators wind one of the 120V windings with
heavier gauge wire or with doubled up wire to allow that winding to be
loaded to the wattage capacity of the generator (the other winding must
be unloaded or you overload the engine).

Suggest reading up on 2 pole and 4 pole alternator designs (6 + pole
exist as well but are not usually found in small generators). Explore
single and three phase winding configurations including the 12 lead
reconnectible three phase design. Look at brush and brushless designs
and the different excitation methods.

Pete C.

The fact remains that on a cheap generator capable of 120V and 240V, each of
the two 120V circuits are only capable of half the max rating. That was my
point.

"Pete C." wrote in message
...
AL wrote:

You snipped too much of my previous statements.

As I said, a cheap generator obtains 240V using a cost reduced method of
connecting two 120V circuits in series. As a consequence of this cheap
method of obtaining 240V, each 120V circuit is only capable of half of
the
max output of the generator.

A fancy generator has a different type of winding, which allows max
output
to be delivered to a single 120V circuit. In addition, it also has 240V.

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
AL writes:

Sorry, I mean to say "Cheap generators provide two separate 120V
circuits which are connected in SERIES to get 240V."

What has that got to do with being cheap? Some applications call for
both
120 and 240.

I think you need to peruse the docs available on some of the major
generator manufacturers sites (Onan, Kohler, Generac, etc.) as you seem
to have a number of misunderstandings of the way alternators
(generators) are constructed.

All 120/240V single phase generators are composed of two 120V windings
in series which is the same as a 240V winding with a center tap. Some
120/240V single phase generators wind one of the 120V windings with
heavier gauge wire or with doubled up wire to allow that winding to be
loaded to the wattage capacity of the generator (the other winding must
be unloaded or you overload the engine).

Suggest reading up on 2 pole and 4 pole alternator designs (6 + pole
exist as well but are not usually found in small generators). Explore
single and three phase winding configurations including the 12 lead
reconnectible three phase design. Look at brush and brushless designs
and the different excitation methods.

Pete C.

--Speaking of yellow-case gensets I saw a 2kw one in an auto parts
catalog yesterday with the McCullough brand on it. Looked pretty much
*exactly* like the 2kw Honda except for case color. I wonder if this is the
same unit? Generally I trust McCullough as they make kewl chainsaw stuff.

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Concave, convex, con
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : carne: all is Zen..
www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 03:01:13 -0600, Richard J Kinch
wrote:

AL writes:

Sorry, I mean to say "Cheap generators provide two separate 120V
circuits which are connected in SERIES to get 240V."

What has that got to do with being cheap? Some applications call for both
120 and 240.

On an "expensive" 4000 Watt gen set, you can draw:
4000 Watts @ 240 Volts from one outlet, OR
4000 Watts @ 120 Volts from one outlet

On a "cheap" 4000 Watt gen set, you can draw:
4000 Watts @ 240 Volts from one outlet, OR
2000 Watts @ 120 Volts from one outlet x 2 outlets = 4000 Watts

When buying a gen set, you need to understand what you are going to do
with it, and then make sure it has the capacity to supply enough power
at the voltage you require to do the job. This means that you have to
read the detailed specifications for each power outlet on the gen set
that you will actually plug your load into, rather than relying on the
overall power rating the generator.

You have ONE power cord coming out of your power tool that you plug
into ONE power outlet on the generator supplying 120 Volts. How much
power can that ONE outlet deliver? How much power do you need from
that ONE outlet?

A 4000 Watt gen set supplying 2000 Watts per outlet from two outlets
is not going to do the job if you need to draw 4000 Watts from one
outlet. This is the difference between a "cheap" generator and an
"expensive" generator. The "expensive" generator can deliver 4000
Watts @ 120 Volts from one outlet. The "cheap" generator delivers
2000 Watts per outlet from 2 outlets.

If you are planning to run a motor off your gen set, your gen set must
be sized for the power required to start the motor, and not for the
power required after the motor is running. The rule-of-thumb is that
the generator power required to start a typical fractional horsepower
induction motor is about 10 times greater than the nameplate
horsepower rating of the motor converted into Watts. For example, 1/2
horsepower converted into Watts = 373 Watts. To start a 1/2 hp motor,
your generator must deliver 10 x 373 Watts = 3730 Watts FROM ONE
OUTLET. Can it?

"steamer" wrote in message
...
--Speaking of yellow-case gensets I saw a 2kw one in an auto parts
catalog yesterday with the McCullough brand on it. Looked pretty much
*exactly* like the 2kw Honda except for case color. I wonder if this is
the
same unit? Generally I trust McCullough as they make kewl chainsaw stuff.

--
The McCullough of today has nothing to do with your father's or granddad's
McCullough! The company has been bought and sold, probably several times and
has become a whore for the China and Taiwan tool market. Same can be said
for Homelite. Homelite is owned by the same conglomerate that owns Ryobi,
and Home Depot's line of Rigid tools.
The only thing I would "trust" about a McCullough tool today is that it is
guaranteed to be a cheap import
Greg

Ignoramus4723 wrote:

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 17:10:04 GMT, Pete C. wrote:
AL wrote:

You snipped too much of my previous statements.

As I said, a cheap generator obtains 240V using a cost reduced method of
connecting two 120V circuits in series. As a consequence of this cheap
method of obtaining 240V, each 120V circuit is only capable of half of the
max output of the generator.

A fancy generator has a different type of winding, which allows max output
to be delivered to a single 120V circuit. In addition, it also has 240V.

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
AL writes:

Sorry, I mean to say "Cheap generators provide two separate 120V
circuits which are connected in SERIES to get 240V."

What has that got to do with being cheap? Some applications call for both
120 and 240.

I think you need to peruse the docs available on some of the major
generator manufacturers sites (Onan, Kohler, Generac, etc.) as you seem
to have a number of misunderstandings of the way alternators
(generators) are constructed.

All 120/240V single phase generators are composed of two 120V windings
in series which is the same as a 240V winding with a center tap. Some
120/240V single phase generators wind one of the 120V windings with
heavier gauge wire or with doubled up wire to allow that winding to be
loaded to the wattage capacity of the generator (the other winding must
be unloaded or you overload the engine).

Suggest reading up on 2 pole and 4 pole alternator designs (6 + pole
exist as well but are not usually found in small generators). Explore
single and three phase winding configurations including the 12 lead
reconnectible three phase design. Look at brush and brushless designs
and the different excitation methods.

Pete, maybe you can help me clear up my confusion. If we have two
windings that are in phase, then we can connect them either in
parallel (getting entire capacity at 110v), or put them in series
(getting entire capacity at 220v).

This is the way my Onan diesel generator is. I had a choice of either
wiring it for 110V 7 kW, or at 220V 7 kW. I chose to wire it at 220v,
with a center tap.

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Diesel/

i

That would be something of a 4 wire reconnectible. If the alternator was
designed for it that is certainly an option. It's a lot like the two
sets of input and output windings on various single phase step up/down
transformers where you connect series or parallel depending on your
needs.

Pete C.

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 20:10:44 GMT, (Speechless)
wrote:

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 03:01:13 -0600, Richard J Kinch
wrote:



When buying a gen set, you need to understand what you are going to do
with it, and then make sure it has the capacity to supply enough power
at the voltage you require to do the job. This means that you have to
read the detailed specifications for each power outlet on the gen set
that you will actually plug your load into, rather than relying on the
overall power rating the generator.

You have ONE power cord coming out of your power tool that you plug
into ONE power outlet on the generator supplying 120 Volts. How much
power can that ONE outlet deliver? How much power do you need from
that ONE outlet?

A 4000 Watt gen set supplying 2000 Watts per outlet from two outlets
is not going to do the job if you need to draw 4000 Watts from one
outlet. This is the difference between a "cheap" generator and an
"expensive" generator. The "expensive" generator can deliver 4000
Watts @ 120 Volts from one outlet. The "cheap" generator delivers
2000 Watts per outlet from 2 outlets.

If you are planning to run a motor off your gen set, your gen set must
be sized for the power required to start the motor, and not for the
power required after the motor is running. The rule-of-thumb is that
the generator power required to start a typical fractional horsepower
induction motor is about 10 times greater than the nameplate
horsepower rating of the motor converted into Watts. For example, 1/2
horsepower converted into Watts = 373 Watts. To start a 1/2 hp motor,
your generator must deliver 10 x 373 Watts = 3730 Watts FROM ONE
OUTLET. Can it?

Great answer- we used to sell gensets and customers would undersize
them because they didn't figure inrush current.
Our rule of thumb for motor starting was three times the running
amperage, with the power source a high quality genset. We didn't sell
cheapos.

-Carl (proud owner of a genuine Kohler Electric Plant)

AL writes:

The fact remains that on a cheap generator capable of 120V and 240V,
each of the two 120V circuits are only capable of half the max rating.
That was my point.

And which has nothing to do with being cheap. Which was my point.

Speechless writes:

The "expensive" generator can deliver 4000
Watts @ 120 Volts from one outlet.

You still haven't explained what this possibly has to do with being cheap
vs expensive, which is *nothing*. It's just a matter of terminal
configuration, and an efficient way to yield both 240 and 120 at the same
time (which is why it is used for residential wiring). Cheap generators
may be wired that way, because it is the best compromist, but that's not
why they're cheap.

And just what utility generators provide a single 120VAC outlet at, what,
over 30 amps you're claiming, and not 240? (As opposed to, say, RV gensets
that are expensive for any number of unrelated reasons, and stuck with
120VAC single-leg delivery.)

On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 03:58:57 GMT, Ignoramus4723
wrote:

On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 03:07:30 GMT, Carl Byrns wrote:

-Carl (proud owner of a genuine Kohler Electric Plant)

Very nice, did you buy it new? What kind of genset is that?

i

It's a monster- Kohler K181 single cylinder cast iron engine and a
Kohler generator section. The generator section has three windings-
AC, starting, and a (IIRC) 200 amp 12/24 volt DC winding for
jump-starting cars or trucks. The big DC circuit can, according to
legend, be modified for use as a welder. The one in mine is tied off.
The thing weighs about 300 pounds and the AC output is only 2200 wats,
making less-than-portable. However, it has so much rotating mass it
will pick up sudden loads smoothly (like the time I had it powering a
fridge, halogen lamp. and a kerosene salamander and plugged in another
fridge I thought was off. It wasn't and the entire genset jumped off
the ground a couple of inches. The fridge started just fine.)
The starter winding is neat- press the button and the engine quietly
starts to spin up- no gear noise.

-Carl

On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 03:07:30 GMT, Carl Byrns
wrote:

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 20:10:44 GMT, (Speechless)
wrote:

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 03:01:13 -0600, Richard J Kinch
wrote:




The rule-of-thumb is that
the generator power required to start a typical fractional horsepower
induction motor is about 10 times greater than the nameplate
horsepower rating of the motor converted into Watts. For example, 1/2
horsepower converted into Watts = 373 Watts. To start a 1/2 hp motor,
your generator must deliver 10 x 373 Watts = 3730 Watts FROM ONE
OUTLET. Can it?

Our rule of thumb for motor starting was three times the running
amperage, with the power source a high quality genset. We didn't sell
cheapos.

Yeah, these days you have to under rate the cheapos by a factor of 3
to 3.5 for induction motor starting; otherwise, the term,
"instantaneous field collapse" takes on a meaning they don't teach in
electrical engineering school -- you ain't seen nothing until you've
seen a cheapo decelerate from 3600 rpm to zero in three revolutions.
Just make sure you are not standing inline with the engine when the
crankshaft exits the crankcase or you might be shopping for a set of
dentures. The cheapos are built for resistive loads only.

In the interests of reducing shipping costs for the mass market,
they've reduced rotating mass on the cheapos to the point where it is
nonexistant and advertise it as making the gen set more "portable."
The surge current capacity on a cheapo is near zero.

When you are under rating a cheapo for induction motor starting, you
are not doing so for the purpose of buying more resistive Watts. You
are doing so for the purpose of buying more rotating mass for the
purpose of getting enough surge current capacity to start an induction
motor.

The ES5000 Honda I had had 2 or 4 120v outlets, a 120v 30A twistlock outlet,
and a 240v twistlock outlet.
--

Clif Holland KA5IPF
www.avvid.com


"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
Speechless writes:

The "expensive" generator can deliver 4000
Watts @ 120 Volts from one outlet.

You still haven't explained what this possibly has to do with being cheap
vs expensive, which is *nothing*. It's just a matter of terminal
configuration, and an efficient way to yield both 240 and 120 at the same
time (which is why it is used for residential wiring). Cheap generators
may be wired that way, because it is the best compromist, but that's not
why they're cheap.

And just what utility generators provide a single 120VAC outlet at, what,
over 30 amps you're claiming, and not 240? (As opposed to, say, RV
gensets
that are expensive for any number of unrelated reasons, and stuck with
120VAC single-leg delivery.)

On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 14:57:52 GMT, (Speechless)
wrote:

On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 03:07:30 GMT, Carl Byrns
wrote:


Yeah, these days you have to under rate the cheapos by a factor of 3
to 3.5 for induction motor starting; otherwise, the term,
"instantaneous field collapse" takes on a meaning they don't teach in
electrical engineering school -- you ain't seen nothing until you've
seen a cheapo decelerate from 3600 rpm to zero in three revolutions.
Just make sure you are not standing inline with the engine when the
crankshaft exits the crankcase or you might be shopping for a set of
dentures. The cheapos are built for resistive loads only.

In the interests of reducing shipping costs for the mass market,
they've reduced rotating mass on the cheapos to the point where it is
nonexistant and advertise it as making the gen set more "portable."
The surge current capacity on a cheapo is near zero.

From my post about my old Kohler Electric Plant:
"It's a monster- Kohler K181 single cylinder cast iron engine and a
Kohler generator section. The generator section has three windings-
AC, starting, and a (IIRC) 200 amp 12/24 volt DC winding for
jump-starting cars or trucks. The big DC circuit can, according to
legend, be modified for use as a welder. The one in mine is tied off.
The thing weighs about 300 pounds and the AC output is only 2200 wats,
making less-than-portable. However, it has so much rotating mass it
will pick up sudden loads smoothly (like the time I had it powering a
fridge, halogen lamp. and a kerosene salamander and plugged in another
fridge I thought was off. It wasn't and the entire genset jumped off
the ground a couple of inches. The fridge started just fine.)
The starter winding is neat- press the button and the engine quietly
starts to spin up- no gear noise."

Just a note- all of the burned out portable gennys I've seen at the
flea market or in a repair shop seem to have OK engines and roasted
generator sections. The windings look like something from a washing
machine motor. Oh, yeah- they're usually Colemans.

-Carl

On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 15:29:01 GMT, Ignoramus4723
wrote:



I have a Onan DJE, perhaps 600 lbs (no idea), myself.

That's a nice unit- where did you get it?

-Carl

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 14:57:49 GMT, Ignoramus5876
wrote:

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 14:38:49 GMT, Carl Byrns wrote:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 15:29:01 GMT, Ignoramus4723
wrote:



I have a Onan DJE, perhaps 600 lbs (no idea), myself.

That's a nice unit- where did you get it?


From the military, it was sold as "scrap condition". After a few
relatively minor repairs, it runs pretty good and passed a 7.5 kW load
test.

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Diesel/

i

Nice work! I'll have to make some pictures of the Kohler one of these
days.

-Carl

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 14:33:35 GMT, Carl Byrns
wrote:


Just a note- all of the burned out portable gennys I've seen at the
flea market or in a repair shop seem to have OK engines and roasted
generator sections. The windings look like something from a washing
machine motor.


This, too, is a symptom of reducing weight to reduce shipping costs.

An "expensive" gen set is designed to produce full rated output at
105 Deg. F./40 Deg. C. ambient temperature. The manufacturer is
usually proud enough about this accomplishment to mention the
temperature operating range in the sales literature.

A "cheap" gen set is designed to produce 50% of rated output to a
resistive load at "room temperature" = 77 Deg. F./25 Deg. C. ambient
temperature.

The unwritten secret is that if the operating temperature is not
stated anywhere, not in the sales literature, nor in the owner's
manual, it is assumed to be "room temperature." You are going to have
a bit of a problem if you are trying to run an air conditioner with
one of these when the ambient temperature is above "room temperature,"
no matter what the Watt rating of the generator set is.

You have to read carefully -- the engine might have an operating
temperature specified for it but, this does not mean that the
alternator attached to the engine has the same operating temperature
range.

"Speechless" wrote: (clip) the engine might have an operating temperature
specified for it but, this does not mean that the alternator attached to the
engine has the same operating temperature range.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
How about plugging in an electric fan next to the generator? On a hot day,
that might be the equivalent of a couple of hundred bucks spent on a better
gen-set.