In article , Ignoramus18851 says...

There are some intermittent problems at home related to me starting my
RPC.

Large rotary converters will draw large currents during startup
unless spun to speed first. Consider a pony motor.

Also be sure your neutral at the panelboard isn't getting
loose. Strange things can happen if this occurs.

Jim


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"Ignoramus18851" wrote in message
...
On 12 Jan 2006 12:12:13 -0800, jim rozen wrote:
In article , Ignoramus18851
says...

There are some intermittent problems at home related to me starting my
RPC.

Large rotary converters will draw large currents during startup
unless spun to speed first. Consider a pony motor.

Thanks Jim, I will think in that direction if I cannot do anything
else.

Also be sure your neutral at the panelboard isn't getting
loose. Strange things can happen if this occurs.

My motor is 240v, but yes, loose connections could account for it. I
feel that it is unlikely to be an issue, but I will check that in any
case.

i

Don't overlook the incoming power feed. Those crimp connections the power
company uses ar pretty good but they do fail over the years. I have had
several problems very much like Iggy's and they were corrected by the power
company fixing their lines. You can usually see signs of a problem on the
connections insulation. One place you could see blue arcing at night when
the electric furnace kicked in! Wind storms would turn the TV on and off
and fried a microwave oven.

And just for the record, I have enjoyed your trials and tribulations with
your various projects. Keep us posted please

Glenn

Ignoramus18851 wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:37:45 -0800, Glenn wrote:

Don't overlook the incoming power feed.

Yes, I will definitely check that. My incoming power lines are
connected to the electrical panel with Allen style set screws. They
are before the main breaker, so, I will have to be very careful
tightening them, as they cannot be turned off.

They can be turned off, however it requires pulling the meter. You
really really don't want to be holding onto the inadequately insulated
end of an Allen wrench that is at 120v relative to ground and has
essentially no current limiting or fusing.

Pete C.




The electrical lines coming into the house are underground.

Those crimp connections the power company uses ar pretty good but
they do fail over the years. I have had several problems very much
like Iggy's and they were corrected by the power company fixing
their lines. You can usually see signs of a problem on the
connections insulation. One place you could see blue arcing at
night when the electric furnace kicked in! Wind storms would turn
the TV on and off and fried a microwave oven.

And just for the record, I have enjoyed your trials and tribulations with
your various projects. Keep us posted please

Thank you. Same to you.

i

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 00:16:58 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:


....................You
really really don't want to be holding onto the inadequately insulated
end of an Allen wrench that is at 120v relative to ground and has
essentially no current limiting or fusing.

Pete C.

Not really. But the scary bit is grounding the Allen wrench, or any
tool, at even 100 Amps. Can you spell KAAAAH POOOOOOWWW ?

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.


ps... Oh that is funny.!!! My spell checker wants to speel that as

"BOO BOO"

What a hoot! A computer that makes Freudian slips!!
Ha ha ha.

Brian Lawson wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 00:16:58 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:


....................You
really really don't want to be holding onto the inadequately insulated
end of an Allen wrench that is at 120v relative to ground and has
essentially no current limiting or fusing.

Pete C.

Not really. But the scary bit is grounding the Allen wrench, or any
tool, at even 100 Amps. Can you spell KAAAAH POOOOOOWWW ?

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

ps... Oh that is funny.!!! My spell checker wants to speel that as

"BOO BOO"

What a hoot! A computer that makes Freudian slips!!
Ha ha ha.

You'll get far more than 100 Amps, even if it was after the breaker. The
breaker won't limit the current, only shut it off when it's over 100
Amps and it's not instant either. Pre breaker it will just max out
whatever it can with the voltage drop from the feeders until something
melts open.

Pete C.

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 21:44:40 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus18851 quickly quoth:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:37:45 -0800, Glenn wrote:

Don't overlook the incoming power feed.

Yes, I will definitely check that. My incoming power lines are
connected to the electrical panel with Allen style set screws. They
are before the main breaker, so, I will have to be very careful
tightening them, as they cannot be turned off.

A pair of rubber/nitrile/latex gloves and a length of shrink
tubing on the allen wrench should do the trick, eh?

My parents' house in LoCal had some lights doing that and I
never did check the panel. I pulled the outlets and checked
them for tightness but didn't follow them back to the source.
The panel was outside locked up somewhere. Maybe I was afraid
because I knew it was one of those lovely aluminum jobs...

--

To change one's self is sufficient. It's the idiots who want to change
the world who are causing all the trouble --Anonymous
----------------------------------------------------------------------
www.diversify.com We help you change your website for the better!

In article , Pete C. says...

You'll get far more than 100 Amps, even if it was after the breaker. The
breaker won't limit the current, only shut it off when it's over 100
Amps and it's not instant either. Pre breaker it will just max out
whatever it can with the voltage drop from the feeders until something
melts open.

Basically it's limited by the impedance of the source, typically
back to a pole pig in residential service. That's low, but it's
not really low.

Here at work they've been upgrading all the 20 amp breakers in
the turret boxes in the labs to be over 100KA interupt rating.

Basically the 'distance' back to the 13.8KV feeders for the
building is pretty low, from an electrical standpoint.

Jim


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please reply to:
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jim rozen wrote:

In article , Pete C. says...

You'll get far more than 100 Amps, even if it was after the breaker. The
breaker won't limit the current, only shut it off when it's over 100
Amps and it's not instant either. Pre breaker it will just max out
whatever it can with the voltage drop from the feeders until something
melts open.

Basically it's limited by the impedance of the source, typically
back to a pole pig in residential service. That's low, but it's
not really low.

Here at work they've been upgrading all the 20 amp breakers in
the turret boxes in the labs to be over 100KA interupt rating.

Basically the 'distance' back to the 13.8KV feeders for the
building is pretty low, from an electrical standpoint.

Jim

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Right, so like I said, well over 100A until something melts open. Not a
pretty thing.

Pete C.

In article , Pete C. says...

Right, so like I said, well over 100A until something melts open. Not a
pretty thing.

A guess? Probably over a thousand amps peak.

Jim


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==================================================

Ignoramus18851 wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:37:45 -0800, Glenn wrote:


Don't overlook the incoming power feed.



Yes, I will definitely check that. My incoming power lines are
connected to the electrical panel with Allen style set screws. They
are before the main breaker, so, I will have to be very careful
tightening them, as they cannot be turned off.

Those things scare the HELL out of me, and I work on live 240 V gear
all the time. I can't think of ANY safe way of tightening those, without
making a special tool. If that L-shaped allen wrench touches anything else,
like the electrical box, the explosion will be totally awesome, and you
don't want to be anywhere near it. If you are not familiar with the term
"arc flash" you might want to read up on it. A 240 V residental service
doesn't really supply the watts that can get into serious arc flash
territory,
but it could still send you to the hospital.


The electrical lines coming into the house are underground.


Yes, here, too. The phenomenally incompetent guys that put in a water main
managed to cut our phone service 4 times, the gas main once, and nicked the
insulation on the buried electric feed. Water got in and ate the conductor.
Somebody turned on the stove one day, and most of the lights in the house
went out. The electric co. strung a bundle of #6 wire across our back
yard and
just left it like that for about SIX WEEKS!

Jon

Everything in my basement shop runs off a 100 amp breaker. I have a 30
hp rpc . A 15 hp cnc lathe a 10 hp cnc mill and 28 two bulb 8 foot
florsent lights, When I start the 30 hp phase converter the upstairs
lights dim just a little hard to notice . I would add some start caps,

jim rozen wrote:

In article , Pete C. says...



Right, so like I said, well over 100A until something melts open. Not a
pretty thing.



A guess? Probably over a thousand amps peak.


The residential transformers are tested, I believe, to limit current to
below
10,000 A. If they didn't, you couldn't use 10 KA max interrupting capacity
breakers in your home panel. If 1000 A doesn't scare you, 10,000 really
ought to! I have seen a 3-phase 400 A 240 V service at a motel short out
during a building fire. It was like a ground display at the 4th of July!
The fire department was working on the fire up to that point, but when
white hot aluminum started cascading all over them, they ran for their
lives!

jon

In article , Jon Elson says...

A guess? Probably over a thousand amps peak.


The residential transformers are tested, I believe, to limit current to
below
10,000 A. If they didn't, you couldn't use 10 KA max interrupting capacity
breakers in your home panel.

Yep. Of course that's right at the transformer. Depending on the
length of run from the house to the pole pig, it could be a fairly
large impedance, an ohm or two. That would substantially reduce
the fault current.

Jim


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On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:01:22 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:
Ignoramus18851 wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:37:45 -0800, Glenn wrote:

Don't overlook the incoming power feed.

Yes, I will definitely check that. My incoming power lines are
connected to the electrical panel with Allen style set screws. They
are before the main breaker, so, I will have to be very careful
tightening them, as they cannot be turned off.

Those things scare the HELL out of me, and I work on live 240 V gear
all the time. I can't think of ANY safe way of tightening those, without
making a special tool. If that L-shaped allen wrench touches anything else,
like the electrical box, the explosion will be totally awesome, and you
don't want to be anywhere near it. If you are not familiar with the term
"arc flash" you might want to read up on it. A 240 V residental service
doesn't really supply the watts that can get into serious arc flash
territory,
but it could still send you to the hospital.


The electrical lines coming into the house are underground.


Yes, here, too. The phenomenally incompetent guys that put in a water main
managed to cut our phone service 4 times, the gas main once, and nicked the
insulation on the buried electric feed. Water got in and ate the conductor.
Somebody turned on the stove one day, and most of the lights in the house
went out. The electric co. strung a bundle of #6 wire across our back
yard and
just left it like that for about SIX WEEKS!

Jon

Use a 3/8 inch drive hex wrench/socket (a socket with a
short hex wrench in it), suitable extension and a ratchet.
Tape up the extension if you so wish. Find a nice piece of
dry wood, plywood, 2x8, 2x10... whatever you fill
comfortable with not falling/stepping off from and stand on
that. Look over exactly where the hex lug is and what could
possibly get in the way when you turn/wrench on it. Then
carefully crank them down.

Don't get too carried away with this. That is more than
enough wrench. If you pop/split one (been there, done that)
it is a pain-in-the-xxx to fix and it HAS to be fixed.
Especially on a hot panel in current use for important
things, like keeping beer in your fridge cold.

If you feel really uncomfortable doing this, find an
electrician that works on commercial/industrial stuff. They
will torque them down with a big grin on their face and
maybe help you drain some of that cold beverage in the
fridge afterwards ;-) There is even a good chance they won't
bother with the wood either. Some of my old work boots were
okay, some gave you a small tingle and some would knock you
on your butt if you weren't standing on something insulated
grin.

I really think you need a small pony motor to bring the big
10hp idler up to speed first though... or at least partially
spin it up shrug.
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Jon Elson wrote:

Ignoramus18851 wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:37:45 -0800, Glenn wrote:


Don't overlook the incoming power feed.



Yes, I will definitely check that. My incoming power lines are
connected to the electrical panel with Allen style set screws. They
are before the main breaker, so, I will have to be very careful
tightening them, as they cannot be turned off.

Those things scare the HELL out of me, and I work on live 240 V gear
all the time. I can't think of ANY safe way of tightening those, without
making a special tool. If that L-shaped allen wrench touches anything else,
like the electrical box, the explosion will be totally awesome, and you
don't want to be anywhere near it. If you are not familiar with the term
"arc flash" you might want to read up on it. A 240 V residental service
doesn't really supply the watts that can get into serious arc flash
territory,
but it could still send you to the hospital.


A good molded handle T type Allen wrench would probably be safest. The
molding would likely be enough insulation, but a wrap of electrical tape
wouldn't hurt. You're only insulating for 120V so it's not that bad. The
bad part is mostly the what if in the event you somehow create a short.


The electrical lines coming into the house are underground.


Yes, here, too. The phenomenally incompetent guys that put in a water main
managed to cut our phone service 4 times, the gas main once, and nicked the
insulation on the buried electric feed. Water got in and ate the conductor.
Somebody turned on the stove one day, and most of the lights in the house
went out. The electric co. strung a bundle of #6 wire across our back
yard and
just left it like that for about SIX WEEKS!

Jon

I've seen worse than that. The one that amazed me was the line that ran
from a manhole that had a 4' high plywood wall around it, through a 6'
length of that yellow jacked cable protector on the ground, up a tree
and then tree to tree at about 8' high alongside a sidewalk for a good
two blocks before disappearing down an alley. This was not a simple 240V
feed to a nearby building, it was a primary feed, probably 13.2kV and
was well within reach of anyone on the sidewalk.

Pete C.

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 19:00:33 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

A pair of rubber/nitrile/latex gloves and a length of shrink
tubing on the allen wrench should do the trick, eh?

My parents' house in LoCal had some lights doing that and I
never did check the panel. I pulled the outlets and checked
them for tightness but didn't follow them back to the source.
The panel was outside locked up somewhere. Maybe I was afraid
because I knew it was one of those lovely aluminum jobs...

I used to have to regularly tie in hot to service entrances. This is
what I used. Take two hex wrenches the proper size and estimate
(slightly over-estimate) the length that will fit in to the bottom of
the screw. Anything that won't fit in the screw gets a covering of no
less than two layers of electrical tape and a layer of friction tape.
One wrench has the short end exposed and the other has the long end
exposed. The unused end should be extra well covered since this is the
end where the tape will wear first.

I like dry leather gloves since stray stranded wires won't puncture
them and I never worked on anything over 220VAC. And yes, there
shouldn't be any stray strands exposed in service entrance but ...

Cheers,

Kelley

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:01:22 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, Jon
Elson quickly quoth:



Ignoramus18851 wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:37:45 -0800, Glenn wrote:


Don't overlook the incoming power feed.



Yes, I will definitely check that. My incoming power lines are
connected to the electrical panel with Allen style set screws. They
are before the main breaker, so, I will have to be very careful
tightening them, as they cannot be turned off.

Those things scare the HELL out of me, and I work on live 240 V gear
all the time. I can't think of ANY safe way of tightening those, without
making a special tool. If that L-shaped allen wrench touches anything else,
like the electrical box, the explosion will be totally awesome, and you
don't want to be anywhere near it. If you are not familiar with the term
"arc flash" you might want to read up on it. A 240 V residental service
doesn't really supply the watts that can get into serious arc flash
territory,
but it could still send you to the hospital.

Wuss. Get a long-reach 1/4" (or 3/8") drive allen socket, shrinkwrap
both the allen and the socket, and wear gloves. Not a problem, guys.
First in google: http://search.ebay.com/allen-socket

If you're still afraid, triple-shrink the allen portion. Just remember
to leave 3/16" bare at the working end, eh?

---
Chaos, panic, and disorder--my work here is done.
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development

Jon Elson wrote:



Ignoramus18851 wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:37:45 -0800, Glenn wrote:


Don't overlook the incoming power feed.


Yes, I will definitely check that. My incoming power lines are
connected to the electrical panel with Allen style set screws. They
are before the main breaker, so, I will have to be very careful
tightening them, as they cannot be turned off.

Those things scare the HELL out of me, and I work on live 240 V gear
all the time. I can't think of ANY safe way of tightening those, without
making a special tool. If that L-shaped allen wrench touches anything
else,
like the electrical box, the explosion will be totally awesome, and you
don't want to be anywhere near it. If you are not familiar with the term
"arc flash" you might want to read up on it. A 240 V residental service
doesn't really supply the watts that can get into serious arc flash
territory,
but it could still send you to the hospital.

I'd avoid using an L shaped allen wrench. I used a straight ball driver
with a large insulated handle on it.

Steve

Steve Smith wrote:


Jon Elson wrote:



Ignoramus18851 wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:37:45 -0800, Glenn wrote:


Don't overlook the incoming power feed.



Yes, I will definitely check that. My incoming power lines are
connected to the electrical panel with Allen style set screws. They
are before the main breaker, so, I will have to be very careful
tightening them, as they cannot be turned off.

Those things scare the HELL out of me, and I work on live 240 V gear
all the time. I can't think of ANY safe way of tightening those, without
making a special tool. If that L-shaped allen wrench touches anything
else,
like the electrical box, the explosion will be totally awesome, and you
don't want to be anywhere near it. If you are not familiar with the term
"arc flash" you might want to read up on it. A 240 V residental service
doesn't really supply the watts that can get into serious arc flash
territory,
but it could still send you to the hospital.

I'd avoid using an L shaped allen wrench. I used a straight ball driver
with a large insulated handle on it.

Steve

I *HATE* and *DETEST* working live.

I cannot reccomend that you do so, but hypothetically, - if you were to
consider doing it yourself - further to the other peoples comments, take
off metal rings, watch straps, neck chains etc. Dont wear *any*
synthetic fibre clothes that can melt or burn etc. Outer clothing
should be heavy wool or leather (cotton burns too easily) and cover as
much of your skin as possible. Wear goggles or protective glasses,
vaporised copper goes a surprising distance and wont do your eyes any
favors. Gumboots would be a good idea in addition to the DRY insulator
to stand on. To reduce the risk of taking a shock across the heart, keep
one hand, preferably your left in your pocket at all times. Have a
trained first aider standing by with a phone, a dry powder fire
extinguisher, a blanket to put you out if you are the fire and a dry
broomstick to seperate you from the line just in case. Remember, if you
are working live, any earthed surface or object is a hazard. You cant
shield the terminals you need to tighten but you may be able to shield
most of the box, conduits etc. so there is NO WAY you can come into
contact. Remove or protect any sharp objects etc. you could get thrown
against. Make *SURE* you have good enough lighting, and that it is NOT
dependent on the circuit you are working on. Dont have a hangover,
coffee, too much tea, be tired or just awakened or unwell - you need a
steady hand and a clear head.

Final advice, *HIRE IT DONE*

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk [at]=@, [dash]=- &
[dot]=.
*Warning* SPAM TRAP set in header, Use email address in sig. if you must.

Ian Malcolm wrote:

Steve Smith wrote:


Jon Elson wrote:



Ignoramus18851 wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:37:45 -0800, Glenn wrote:


Don't overlook the incoming power feed.



Yes, I will definitely check that. My incoming power lines are
connected to the electrical panel with Allen style set screws. They
are before the main breaker, so, I will have to be very careful
tightening them, as they cannot be turned off.

Those things scare the HELL out of me, and I work on live 240 V gear
all the time. I can't think of ANY safe way of tightening those, without
making a special tool. If that L-shaped allen wrench touches anything
else,
like the electrical box, the explosion will be totally awesome, and you
don't want to be anywhere near it. If you are not familiar with the term
"arc flash" you might want to read up on it. A 240 V residental service
doesn't really supply the watts that can get into serious arc flash
territory,
but it could still send you to the hospital.

I'd avoid using an L shaped allen wrench. I used a straight ball driver
with a large insulated handle on it.

Steve

I *HATE* and *DETEST* working live.

I cannot reccomend that you do so, but hypothetically, - if you were to
consider doing it yourself - further to the other peoples comments, take
off metal rings, watch straps, neck chains etc. Dont wear *any*
synthetic fibre clothes that can melt or burn etc. Outer clothing
should be heavy wool or leather (cotton burns too easily) and cover as
much of your skin as possible. Wear goggles or protective glasses,
vaporised copper goes a surprising distance and wont do your eyes any
favors. Gumboots would be a good idea in addition to the DRY insulator
to stand on. To reduce the risk of taking a shock across the heart, keep
one hand, preferably your left in your pocket at all times. Have a
trained first aider standing by with a phone, a dry powder fire
extinguisher, a blanket to put you out if you are the fire and a dry
broomstick to seperate you from the line just in case. Remember, if you
are working live, any earthed surface or object is a hazard. You cant
shield the terminals you need to tighten but you may be able to shield
most of the box, conduits etc. so there is NO WAY you can come into
contact. Remove or protect any sharp objects etc. you could get thrown
against. Make *SURE* you have good enough lighting, and that it is NOT
dependent on the circuit you are working on. Dont have a hangover,
coffee, too much tea, be tired or just awakened or unwell - you need a
steady hand and a clear head.

Final advice, *HIRE IT DONE*

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk [at]=@, [dash]=- &
[dot]=.
*Warning* SPAM TRAP set in header, Use email address in sig. if you must.

I think your going a bit overboard there, those precautions are a bit
more suitable for primary work or at lease 480V switch gear. Remember
that we are talking about 120V here, it doesn't take that much to
insulate against 120V, heck where you are you use 240V as your normal
household voltage. The threat in what's being proposed comes from the
high currents available, not from the voltage.

Bolt-on type circuit breakers are routinely connected live and not much
of a problem. The key thing is that there is generally a main breaker
upstream to shut things down in the event of a short. Working live
before the main breaker if there is a short things will stay lit up
until something melts open, doing a lot more damage.

Pete C.

That is 10K VA - divide your 10,000 amps by 240.

KVA is the term for transformers.

Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Jon Elson wrote:


jim rozen wrote:

In article , Pete C. says...



Right, so like I said, well over 100A until something melts open. Not a
pretty thing.



A guess? Probably over a thousand amps peak.


The residential transformers are tested, I believe, to limit current to
below
10,000 A. If they didn't, you couldn't use 10 KA max interrupting capacity
breakers in your home panel. If 1000 A doesn't scare you, 10,000 really
ought to! I have seen a 3-phase 400 A 240 V service at a motel short out
during a building fire. It was like a ground display at the 4th of July!
The fire department was working on the fire up to that point, but when
white hot aluminum started cascading all over them, they ran for their
lives!

jon


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http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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Can be done safely.

I would use a ratchet with an allen driver.

We used to work on hot buss's by building an insulated platform out of
wood pop bottle transport boxes and use any pop bottle except the dark
green Coke bottles (they were slightly conductive we found).

Get up on the platform and both hands on the wrench.

Plan out what you are going to do 1 step at a time.

Know what your arms and body are close to.

Tighten one connection at a time

Have a safety man in case.

Done this on 480 pannels and down.

Fortunatly except for one time at my house to tighten a buss bar
connection in a 220 299 amp pannel these jobs were in hospitals where we
had determined that the main pannel had hot connections. Medical help
was close by and they knew what we were doing.

We didn't have them then but the optical tempature probes would be good
for looking for hot connections in power distb. pannels now.

Hugh
Retired Medical X-Ray service engineer

Pete C. wrote:
Ignoramus18851 wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:37:45 -0800, Glenn wrote:

Don't overlook the incoming power feed.

Yes, I will definitely check that. My incoming power lines are
connected to the electrical panel with Allen style set screws. They
are before the main breaker, so, I will have to be very careful
tightening them, as they cannot be turned off.


They can be turned off, however it requires pulling the meter. You
really really don't want to be holding onto the inadequately insulated
end of an Allen wrench that is at 120v relative to ground and has
essentially no current limiting or fusing.

Pete C.




The electrical lines coming into the house are underground.


Those crimp connections the power company uses ar pretty good but
they do fail over the years. I have had several problems very much
like Iggy's and they were corrected by the power company fixing
their lines. You can usually see signs of a problem on the
connections insulation. One place you could see blue arcing at
night when the electric furnace kicked in! Wind storms would turn
the TV on and off and fried a microwave oven.

And just for the record, I have enjoyed your trials and tribulations with
your various projects. Keep us posted please

Thank you. Same to you.

i

On 12 Jan 2006 12:12:13 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Ignoramus18851 says...

There are some intermittent problems at home related to me starting my
RPC.

Large rotary converters will draw large currents during startup
unless spun to speed first. Consider a pony motor.

Also be sure your neutral at the panelboard isn't getting
loose. Strange things can happen if this occurs.

Jim


Jim and I appear to be the only logical ones here G..and forego all
the crap needed to self start large RPCs, by using a pony motor.

Thats 2 things we agree on. When the third pops up..the earth will
experience a pole shift.
G

Gunner

The aim of untold millions is to be free to do exactly as they choose
and for someone else to pay when things go wrong.

In the past few decades, a peculiar and distinctive psychology
has emerged in England. Gone are the civility, sturdy independence,
and admirable stoicism that carried the English through the war years
.. It has been replaced by a constant whine of excuses, complaints,
and special pleading. The collapse of the British character has been
as swift and complete as the collapse of British power.

Theodore Dalrymple,

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 00:16:58 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

Ignoramus18851 wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:37:45 -0800, Glenn wrote:

Don't overlook the incoming power feed.

Yes, I will definitely check that. My incoming power lines are
connected to the electrical panel with Allen style set screws. They
are before the main breaker, so, I will have to be very careful
tightening them, as they cannot be turned off.

They can be turned off, however it requires pulling the meter. You
really really don't want to be holding onto the inadequately insulated
end of an Allen wrench that is at 120v relative to ground and has
essentially no current limiting or fusing.

Pete C.

I did that the other day. From the security of a tall plastic 5
gallon bucket. Carefully...very very carefully.

Gunner





The electrical lines coming into the house are underground.

Those crimp connections the power company uses ar pretty good but
they do fail over the years. I have had several problems very much
like Iggy's and they were corrected by the power company fixing
their lines. You can usually see signs of a problem on the
connections insulation. One place you could see blue arcing at
night when the electric furnace kicked in! Wind storms would turn
the TV on and off and fried a microwave oven.

And just for the record, I have enjoyed your trials and tribulations with
your various projects. Keep us posted please

Thank you. Same to you.

i

The aim of untold millions is to be free to do exactly as they choose
and for someone else to pay when things go wrong.

In the past few decades, a peculiar and distinctive psychology
has emerged in England. Gone are the civility, sturdy independence,
and admirable stoicism that carried the English through the war years
.. It has been replaced by a constant whine of excuses, complaints,
and special pleading. The collapse of the British character has been
as swift and complete as the collapse of British power.

Theodore Dalrymple,

Pete C. wrote:
I think your going a bit overboard there, those precautions are a bit
more suitable for primary work or at lease 480V switch gear. Remember
that we are talking about 120V here, it doesn't take that much to
insulate against 120V, heck where you are you use 240V as your normal
household voltage. The threat in what's being proposed comes from the
high currents available, not from the voltage.

Bolt-on type circuit breakers are routinely connected live and not much
of a problem. The key thing is that there is generally a main breaker
upstream to shut things down in the event of a short. Working live
before the main breaker if there is a short things will stay lit up
until something melts open, doing a lot more damage.

Pete C.

Iggy is considering working on the feed to his panel. We presume there
is a supply company fuse somewhere upstream but with Iggy, who can tell?

With the exceptions of the gumboots, making sure you are clear of
sharp/spikey objects and keeping one hand in your pocket, everything
else is equally applicable even when working on 48 Volt BATTERY
supplies. With that in mind, does the fact that he's not likely to get
himself accross more than 120 V (though there is 240 V in there phase to
phase) make a lot of difference compared to 240 V panels over here. As
I said, vaporised copper & steel is not your friend. If one of the
screws shears and the driver slips, what happens next?

Nearly everyone was concentrating on insulating the tool, not on
protecting Iggy. IMHO he needs to do *BOTH* so that if something goes
wrong, he's got a chance to come back and tell us how he *nearly* had a
bad accident, rather than the alternative.

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk [at]=@, [dash]=- &
[dot]=.
*Warning* SPAM TRAP set in header, Use email address in sig. if you must.

Ian Malcolm wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
I think your going a bit overboard there, those precautions are a bit
more suitable for primary work or at lease 480V switch gear. Remember
that we are talking about 120V here, it doesn't take that much to
insulate against 120V, heck where you are you use 240V as your normal
household voltage. The threat in what's being proposed comes from the
high currents available, not from the voltage.

Bolt-on type circuit breakers are routinely connected live and not much
of a problem. The key thing is that there is generally a main breaker
upstream to shut things down in the event of a short. Working live
before the main breaker if there is a short things will stay lit up
until something melts open, doing a lot more damage.

Pete C.

Iggy is considering working on the feed to his panel. We presume there
is a supply company fuse somewhere upstream but with Iggy, who can tell?

The fuse will be on the primary side of the distribution transformer and
is unlikely to blow if someone shorts one phase in their panel.


With the exceptions of the gumboots, making sure you are clear of
sharp/spikey objects and keeping one hand in your pocket, everything
else is equally applicable even when working on 48 Volt BATTERY
supplies.

The construction details of all the code approved distribution panels in
the US take care of pretty much all the clearance issues.

With that in mind, does the fact that he's not likely to get
himself accross more than 120 V (though there is 240 V in there phase to
phase) make a lot of difference compared to 240 V panels over here.

Not a lot, only a small difference in the insulation necessary and any
decent electrical tape will be good for either.

As
I said, vaporised copper & steel is not your friend. If one of the
screws shears and the driver slips, what happens next?

Can't happen in the US panelboards (from the last few decades at least),
the top of the Allen setscrew is generally close to flush with the top
of the connector block. It's also a decent size Allen setscrew, like
5/16" or possibly 3/8" so it's unlikely to strip internally either.


Nearly everyone was concentrating on insulating the tool, not on
protecting Iggy. IMHO he needs to do *BOTH* so that if something goes
wrong, he's got a chance to come back and tell us how he *nearly* had a
bad accident, rather than the alternative.

We must presume that he has enough sense to not try this while standing
barefoot in a puddle, after all he hasn't killed himself with his RPC or
welder yet.

Pete C.



--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk [at]=@, [dash]=- &
[dot]=.
*Warning* SPAM TRAP set in header, Use email address in sig. if you must.

Pete C. wrote:
Ian Malcolm wrote:
Iggy is considering working on the feed to his panel. We presume there
is a supply company fuse somewhere upstream but with Iggy, who can tell?


The fuse will be on the primary side of the distribution transformer and
is unlikely to blow if someone shorts one phase in their panel.

I'd expect the screwdriver, wrench or whatever to loose a fair bit off
the end then. Over here, we tend to have a *LOT* of households tapped
off each phase in turn of a three phase 240 V main. Due to the
extremely large current available, the feed to the meter comes through
an electricity company owned fuse, (or one per phase). Wireing up to
that fuse is NOT MY PROBLEM and after the meter is my responsibility. I
can pull that fuse if I need to work on the board, but have to get the
company out to check and reseal it on reconnection.


The construction details of all the code approved distribution panels in
the US take care of pretty much all the clearance issues.

And so it is with modern consumer units (thats what they call the
domestic ones with an integrated masin disconnect) over here.

With that in mind, does the fact that he's not likely to get
himself accross more than 120 V (though there is 240 V in there phase to
phase) make a lot of difference compared to 240 V panels over here.


Not a lot, only a small difference in the insulation necessary and any
decent electrical tape will be good for either.

Yes.



As
I said, vaporised copper & steel is not your friend. If one of the
screws shears and the driver slips, what happens next?


Can't happen in the US panelboards (from the last few decades at least),
the top of the Allen setscrew is generally close to flush with the top
of the connector block. It's also a decent size Allen setscrew, like
5/16" or possibly 3/8" so it's unlikely to strip internally either.

Good to know.

I've stripped out some real horrors over here. Pre war as far as I
could tell. Mahogony case with a mica window, two brass buss bars with
*thumbscrews* !!! and either side more thumbscrews and terminals for the
other end of the fuse wires. It had fuses in both live and neutral, (I
belive there used to be a DC system that was symmetrical about ground in
the area) and it had a couple of its set of little sprung flags left
that would pop out into the window when the fuse wire broke to indicate
which circuit was blown. The disconnect feeding that was a knife switch
which had a metal guard that wasn't grounded. The whole lot was wired
with cotton covered wire with totally powdery hard rubber insulation.
Not supposed to still be in service, but the previous owner had been
there since the place had been built back in the 30's. She used to plug
her iron in the kitchen light socket. Between that and a three phase
panel and sub panel in our workshop where some idiot had ripped out the
conduit which had been the sub panel ground and rewired it without one,
and the bare unlabelled buss bars inside, there are plenty of ways to
get in trouble over here.

The government has finally brought in a law that all domestic
installations must be inspected by an approved contractor (who will
normally insist in being paid to do the work as well as to inspect) and
changed the wiring colours so as to keep the DIYers honest. Looking at
some of the stuff I've seen, I guess its probably for the best, but
those of us DIYers who were working to code are slightly ****ed off
because previously, unless you were very lucky, you'd wind up having to
sort stuff out that wasn't up to spec if you had occasion to open up
any part of an installation that had passed a full inspection, or even
find remedial work you had paied for 10 years ago hadn't been completed.


Nearly everyone was concentrating on insulating the tool, not on
protecting Iggy. IMHO he needs to do *BOTH* so that if something goes
wrong, he's got a chance to come back and tell us how he *nearly* had a
bad accident, rather than the alternative.


We must presume that he has enough sense to not try this while standing
barefoot in a puddle, after all he hasn't killed himself with his RPC or
welder yet.

Pete C.
Well he's gone and done it without running into any trouble, thankfully.

Its been an interesting discussion. Thank you.

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk [at]=@, [dash]=- &
[dot]=.
*Warning* SPAM TRAP set in header, Use email address in sig. if you must.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 03:53:24 GMT, Ignoramus22325
wrote:

snip

Thanks guys. I retightened the screws (without trying to apply too
much force). To my slight surprise and delight, the RPC does not seem
to cause the UPS supplying the TV to turn off anymore. My wife says
that lights darken a lot less now. And that is without any extra
capacitors etc. These turnoffs were a little intermittent, so I am
reluctant to announce complete victory.

I am quite happy and thankful to all for your suggestions.

Like I said earlier, I held the L shaped allen wrench with linesman
pliers with insulated handles, to avoid being electrocuted.

i

Well, you're not dead and it worked, but if there's a next time,
consider what might have happened if the pliers had slipped on the
allen wrench. I think the various ideas of taping the wrench or using
a plastic T handled wrench, all with dry leather gloves, were less
risky.

Glad you found the cause and didn't get hurt.

Pete Keillor

Ignoramus22325 wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 03:33:57 +0000, Ian Malcolm wrote:
Nearly everyone was concentrating on insulating the tool, not on
protecting Iggy. IMHO he needs to do *BOTH* so that if something goes
wrong, he's got a chance to come back and tell us how he *nearly* had a
bad accident, rather than the alternative.


We must presume that he has enough sense to not try this while standing
barefoot in a puddle, after all he hasn't killed himself with his RPC or
welder yet.

Pete C.

Well he's gone and done it without running into any trouble, thankfully.

Its been an interesting discussion. Thank you.

Thanks guys. I retightened the screws (without trying to apply too
much force). To my slight surprise and delight, the RPC does not seem
to cause the UPS supplying the TV to turn off anymore. My wife says
that lights darken a lot less now. And that is without any extra
capacitors etc. These turnoffs were a little intermittent, so I am
reluctant to announce complete victory.

I am quite happy and thankful to all for your suggestions.

Like I said earlier, I held the L shaped allen wrench with linesman
pliers with insulated handles, to avoid being electrocuted.

i

It was probably a function of coinciding with other large loads like an
electric stove or clothes dryer. I guess you don't have voltage drop
readings from before and after, but since the UPS should be trying to
switch at a specific voltage you may have reduced the drop enough to
miss that threshold. Of course the regulator down the street somewhere
could have been adjusted or drifted slightly higher as well.

Pete C.

Ian Malcolm wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
Ian Malcolm wrote:
Iggy is considering working on the feed to his panel. We presume there
is a supply company fuse somewhere upstream but with Iggy, who can tell?


The fuse will be on the primary side of the distribution transformer and
is unlikely to blow if someone shorts one phase in their panel.

I'd expect the screwdriver, wrench or whatever to loose a fair bit off
the end then. Over here, we tend to have a *LOT* of households tapped
off each phase in turn of a three phase 240 V main. Due to the
extremely large current available, the feed to the meter comes through
an electricity company owned fuse, (or one per phase). Wireing up to
that fuse is NOT MY PROBLEM and after the meter is my responsibility. I
can pull that fuse if I need to work on the board, but have to get the
company out to check and reseal it on reconnection.

Here the first protection after the drop is the main breaker in the
house panel. You're responsible for the meter socket on. There are code
limits on the distance the unprotected feeder can travel inside the
house before reaching the main breaker and if the panel and service
entrance need to be further apart you have to provide a main breaker at
the meter socket.

The utility puts their little seal on the meter socket here too, but
they rarely seem to care much about it unless they have reason to
suspect you are stealing power. I had to replace my meter socket on
short notice when it failed some years back so I didn't contact the
utility. It was years later when they changed the meter to the new
remote read ones that they actually put a new seal on it.



I've stripped out some real horrors over here. Pre war as far as I
could tell. Mahogony case with a mica window, two brass buss bars with
*thumbscrews* !!! and either side more thumbscrews and terminals for the
other end of the fuse wires. It had fuses in both live and neutral, (I
belive there used to be a DC system that was symmetrical about ground in
the area) and it had a couple of its set of little sprung flags left
that would pop out into the window when the fuse wire broke to indicate
which circuit was blown. The disconnect feeding that was a knife switch
which had a metal guard that wasn't grounded. The whole lot was wired
with cotton covered wire with totally powdery hard rubber insulation.
Not supposed to still be in service, but the previous owner had been
there since the place had been built back in the 30's. She used to plug
her iron in the kitchen light socket. Between that and a three phase
panel and sub panel in our workshop where some idiot had ripped out the
conduit which had been the sub panel ground and rewired it without one,
and the bare unlabelled buss bars inside, there are plenty of ways to
get in trouble over here.

Yep, the real old stuff can be pretty scary although people are far too
paranoid about old knob and tube wiring. I'm still not sure the "modern"
stuff is all that good in some areas though. I've seen some pictures of
some apparently much newer service equipment that appeared to be quite
new DIN mount breakers and whatnot mounted on a section of DIN rail. All
fin to that point, but this DIN rail was mounted in an under stair
closed to the back of a stair riser with no enclosure around it. I hope
this was just a one off hack job.


The government has finally brought in a law that all domestic
installations must be inspected by an approved contractor (who will
normally insist in being paid to do the work as well as to inspect) and
changed the wiring colours so as to keep the DIYers honest. Looking at
some of the stuff I've seen, I guess its probably for the best, but
those of us DIYers who were working to code are slightly ****ed off
because previously, unless you were very lucky, you'd wind up having to
sort stuff out that wasn't up to spec if you had occasion to open up
any part of an installation that had passed a full inspection, or even
find remedial work you had paied for 10 years ago hadn't been completed.

Here the old stuff is "grandfathered" and allowed, but if you do any
significant electrical work that requires a permit you will generally be
required to bring the old stuff up to code as well. Here the homeowner
can generally do their own electrical work, but they have to get a
permit, follow codes and have it inspected just like any electrical
contractor would. Generally seems to be the best way to do it as I will
not permit anyone to force me to pay someone to do what I can do at
least as well myself.


Nearly everyone was concentrating on insulating the tool, not on
protecting Iggy. IMHO he needs to do *BOTH* so that if something goes
wrong, he's got a chance to come back and tell us how he *nearly* had a
bad accident, rather than the alternative.


We must presume that he has enough sense to not try this while standing
barefoot in a puddle, after all he hasn't killed himself with his RPC or
welder yet.

Pete C.
Well he's gone and done it without running into any trouble, thankfully.

Its been an interesting discussion. Thank you.

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk [at]=@, [dash]=- &
[dot]=.
*Warning* SPAM TRAP set in header, Use email address in sig. if you must.

It's interesting how things vary between countries too.

Pete C.

In article ,
Jon Elson wrote:

The residential transformers are tested, I believe, to limit current to
below
10,000 A. If they didn't, you couldn't use 10 KA max interrupting capacity
breakers in your home panel. If 1000 A doesn't scare you, 10,000 really
ought to! I have seen a 3-phase 400 A 240 V service at a motel short out
during a building fire. It was like a ground display at the 4th of July!
The fire department was working on the fire up to that point, but when
white hot aluminum started cascading all over them, they ran for their
lives!

jon

Of interest:
http://www.maintenance-news.com/cgi-...d.cgi?database
=vibetalk.db&command=viewupload&id=29

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net

In article ,
Ignoramus5478 wrote:

[...]

Scary stuff!

Aww, don't let 'em scare ya! Be a man. Tighten the screw with cheap
gas station pliers, butt-ass nekkid, standing in water, with your kid
(no, scratch that, make it your wife since you'll be nekkid) watching so
you can have a witness back you up when you're bragging later. But
first will me your generator just in case. (:

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net

In article ,
Ignoramus26433 wrote:

Aww, don't let 'em scare ya! Be a man. Tighten the screw with cheap
gas station pliers, butt-ass nekkid, standing in water, with your kid
(no, scratch that, make it your wife since you'll be nekkid) watching so
you can have a witness back you up when you're bragging later. But
first will me your generator just in case. (:


Too late

I already tightened the set screws... Just held the allen wrench with
linesman pliers and wore rubber soled shoes.

i

Ah, so I read. Oh well, at least you used pliers. (:

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net

The allen wrench doen't always stay in the screw or fall on the floor.
It can and often does weld itself inside the box, possibly along with
the pliers. It only has to happen to you once before your willing to
spend 5 minutes and 25 cents worth of tape to insulate the allen
wrench.

Even if you aren't electrocuted when you weld a wrench in a box you
will usually end up blind for 10 or 15 minutes.

Cheers,

Kelley


On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:50:52 GMT, Ignoramus26433
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 08:21:07 -0500, Pete Keillor wrote:
I am quite happy and thankful to all for your suggestions.

Like I said earlier, I held the L shaped allen wrench with linesman
pliers with insulated handles, to avoid being electrocuted.

Well, you're not dead and it worked, but if there's a next time,
consider what might have happened if the pliers had slipped on the
allen wrench. I think the various ideas of taping the wrench or using
a plastic T handled wrench, all with dry leather gloves, were less
risky.

Nothing major would happen, the allen wrench would either stay in the
setscrew, or it would fall to the floor.