Whats the best way to make a square hole in a round piece of material,
without a broach? The round rod needs to be split, so it can be
placed over a 5/8 square rod, and then be able to slide along that
square rod

The problem: I need a round bar, with a 5/8" square hole in the
center, to go over the square "run fowards/stop/run reverse" rod that
runs the length of the bed, under the acme threading screw, and the
feed rod.

The lathe is missing the run/stop/reverse lever and assembly, so I
want to make one. Pretty simple..but Ive been banging my head over
the best way to make something that simple. I finally did accomplish
it..but it was a serious pain in the ass.

I ultimately milled a half depth 5/8 wide groove in a 5" long chunk of
scrap stock, cut it in half so I had two halves, then milled all sides
so it was semi square, then chucked it in a 4 jaw, indicated on a 5/8
round stock slipped into the square hole, then turned to
diameter,about half the lenght, then removed, then put into a 3 jaw,
clamping on the already turned secton, then re-turned the last half to
match the first.

There has to be an easier way ( the shaper blew a drive belt..so its
on the Fix list)

This round with square hole gizmo..will be installed inside of a bore
that will be bolted to the bottom of the carraige, with the
run/stop/reverse rod running throuigh it. The assembly will remain
fixed..the round with square, will be the actuator for the swtich
rod..using a handle

Gunner



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Damn, your life's a bitch! What did you do, stomp God's puppy?

I think a construct is the only way to go, sometimes you can make a
"Frankenpart" from bits of other pieces of crap. An old, old Hungarian
machinist tought me as a kid: "First learn how to weld anything and here's
a file and a hacksaw." "But, I want to learn machining!" "You learn that
file, hacksaw and welding and you'll KNOW machining."


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
Whats the best way to make a square hole in a round piece of material,
without a broach? The round rod needs to be split, so it can be
placed over a 5/8 square rod, and then be able to slide along that
square rod

The problem: I need a round bar, with a 5/8" square hole in the
center, to go over the square "run fowards/stop/run reverse" rod that
runs the length of the bed, under the acme threading screw, and the
feed rod.

The lathe is missing the run/stop/reverse lever and assembly, so I
want to make one. Pretty simple..but Ive been banging my head over
the best way to make something that simple. I finally did accomplish
it..but it was a serious pain in the ass.

I ultimately milled a half depth 5/8 wide groove in a 5" long chunk of
scrap stock, cut it in half so I had two halves, then milled all sides
so it was semi square, then chucked it in a 4 jaw, indicated on a 5/8
round stock slipped into the square hole, then turned to
diameter,about half the lenght, then removed, then put into a 3 jaw,
clamping on the already turned secton, then re-turned the last half to
match the first.

There has to be an easier way ( the shaper blew a drive belt..so its
on the Fix list)

This round with square hole gizmo..will be installed inside of a bore
that will be bolted to the bottom of the carraige, with the
run/stop/reverse rod running throuigh it. The assembly will remain
fixed..the round with square, will be the actuator for the swtich
rod..using a handle

Gunner



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

"Tom Gardner" wrote: (clip) "You learn that file, hacksaw and welding and
you'll KNOW machining."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think Tom has the right idea. But I'll be more specific. Hack saw or
band saw the round bar to the required depth. Heat it red hot with your
acetylene torch, and hammer it around the square piece that you want it to
fit. Drill a hole to accept the clamp screw. If necessary, turn the
outside round in one of your many lathes.

1. Careful chain drilling (tiny bit in corner) followed by either die filer or
hand filing

2. Drill a slightly oversized hole and use a boring bar with a specially ground
bit to stroke 4 square corners (you can stroke a few thou off cranking the apron
back and forth on a lathe, or cranking the spindle up and down on a mill)

3. Break small bandsaw blade, drill hole, pass blade through material, weld up,
bandsaw square hole, break blade again, remove part

4. Suck up to someone with an EDM machine

5. If you're good, hot punch a square hole using blacksmithing techniques, then
grab the part by the hole on a square mandrel, and turn the outside round and
concentric

GWE

Gunner Asch wrote:
Whats the best way to make a square hole in a round piece of material,
without a broach? The round rod needs to be split, so it can be
placed over a 5/8 square rod, and then be able to slide along that
square rod

The problem: I need a round bar, with a 5/8" square hole in the
center, to go over the square "run fowards/stop/run reverse" rod that
runs the length of the bed, under the acme threading screw, and the
feed rod.

The lathe is missing the run/stop/reverse lever and assembly, so I
want to make one. Pretty simple..but Ive been banging my head over
the best way to make something that simple. I finally did accomplish
it..but it was a serious pain in the ass.

I ultimately milled a half depth 5/8 wide groove in a 5" long chunk of
scrap stock, cut it in half so I had two halves, then milled all sides
so it was semi square, then chucked it in a 4 jaw, indicated on a 5/8
round stock slipped into the square hole, then turned to
diameter,about half the lenght, then removed, then put into a 3 jaw,
clamping on the already turned secton, then re-turned the last half to
match the first.

There has to be an easier way ( the shaper blew a drive belt..so its
on the Fix list)

This round with square hole gizmo..will be installed inside of a bore
that will be bolted to the bottom of the carraige, with the
run/stop/reverse rod running throuigh it. The assembly will remain
fixed..the round with square, will be the actuator for the swtich
rod..using a handle

Gunner



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Take two square bars and mill a 5/8ths slot in each. Put together and braze
one end together. Chuck un-brazed end in 4-jaw chuck and turn to suit.
Flip around a face off. Flip again cut off to length.

Might not be perfect but what do you expect for free advice?

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 04:23:02 -0600, "Mike"
wrote:

Take two square bars and mill a 5/8ths slot in each. Put together and braze
one end together. Chuck un-brazed end in 4-jaw chuck and turn to suit.
Flip around a face off. Flip again cut off to length.

Might not be perfect but what do you expect for free advice?


Pretty much what I did, except I used hose clamps...chuckle
Ill post some pics later in my yahoo album

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Use your plasma cutter you bought at H.F. I suppose if I was on welfare
I would shop there to

In article ,
says...

Whats the best way to make a square hole in a round piece of material,
without a broach?


Gunner, I know you would probably rather make your own, but these things are
readily available from Green Bay Manufacturing:

http://www.greenbaymfgco.com/catalog.php

Dennis

Gee, all that work for a $8.60 part!
Steve

"DT" wrote in message
...
In article ,

says...

Whats the best way to make a square hole in a round piece of material,
without a broach?


Gunner, I know you would probably rather make your own, but these things
are
readily available from Green Bay Manufacturing:

http://www.greenbaymfgco.com/catalog.php

Dennis

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
Whats the best way to make a square hole in a round piece of material,
without a broach? The round rod needs to be split, so it can be
placed over a 5/8 square rod, and then be able to slide along that
square rod

Gunner


I had a similar poblem last year: How to make keyways on a lathe without a
broach or a mill. I got some HSS tool blanks and ground one to size. Then
I put the work in the 3 jaw and set the back gear to a high ratio so it
would be dificult to turn from the chuck (sort of like using the back
gearing as a brake). Then I set the tool in the tool post and used the
saddle wheel to "broach" the keyway a few thou at a time with the key at the
9:00 position looking at the chuck. It was slow work, but worked great.

Put the piece in the forge. Heat to a bright red heat. Punch out with a
square hot punch. Time consumed, one minute +/-. You do have to fire up
the forge though. G
Happy new year.
Bugs

I'm not sure if they have one the right size, but I'd cheat and see if I
could buy a sleeve pre-bored from Reid Tool. They sell round sleeves
with square holes in a variety of sizes.

Doug White

In article , Gunner Asch says...

Whats the best way to make a square hole in a round piece of material,
without a broach?

I would start with the aforementioned (in two posts no less!)
'lathe as shaper' approach.

Basically bore a somewhat oversized hole in the round, and then
put the 'corners' in with a shaper-type bit in the toolpost by
stroking with the carriage.

The end result does not have to be truly, completely square, it
only has to have square corners. Boring it oversized to start
reduces the amount of material that has to be 'shaped' off
drastically.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"tony stramella" wrote in message
...
Use your plasma cutter you bought at H.F. I suppose if I was on welfare
I would shop there to

My, my, aren't we full of cute comments.

You, sir, are a pain in the ass.

Harold

Hey Gunner,

Not really sure why you want to do exactly what you describe, but for
the accuracy I suspect you need, or lack there-of in fact, I have two
suggestions.

A piece of 3/4 X 3/4 X 1/8 angle, cut to length twice, weld each into
a suitable round also sliced lengthwise in half.

or

Just use the round with a round hole that the drive shaft will fit
through, and put four set-screws cross-ways, or if it's longer than I
imagine, put 4 in each end, to form the "square" drive.

Take care. Happy New Year.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 04:31:00 GMT, Gunner Asch
wrote:

Whats the best way to make a square hole in a round piece of material,
without a broach? The round rod needs to be split, so it can be
placed over a 5/8 square rod, and then be able to slide along that
square rod

The problem: I need a round bar, with a 5/8" square hole in the
center, to go over the square "run fowards/stop/run reverse" rod that
runs the length of the bed, under the acme threading screw, and the
feed rod.

The lathe is missing the run/stop/reverse lever and assembly, so I
want to make one. Pretty simple..but Ive been banging my head over
the best way to make something that simple. I finally did accomplish
it..but it was a serious pain in the ass.

I ultimately milled a half depth 5/8 wide groove in a 5" long chunk of
scrap stock, cut it in half so I had two halves, then milled all sides
so it was semi square, then chucked it in a 4 jaw, indicated on a 5/8
round stock slipped into the square hole, then turned to
diameter,about half the lenght, then removed, then put into a 3 jaw,
clamping on the already turned secton, then re-turned the last half to
match the first.

There has to be an easier way ( the shaper blew a drive belt..so its
on the Fix list)

This round with square hole gizmo..will be installed inside of a bore
that will be bolted to the bottom of the carraige, with the
run/stop/reverse rod running throuigh it. The assembly will remain
fixed..the round with square, will be the actuator for the swtich
rod..using a handle

Gunner



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 08:24:21 -0500, (tony
stramella) wrote:

Use your plasma cutter you bought at H.F. I suppose if I was on welfare
I would shop there to





What plasma cutter?

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 08:25:27 -0600, (DT)
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Whats the best way to make a square hole in a round piece of material,
without a broach?


Gunner, I know you would probably rather make your own, but these things are
readily available from Green Bay Manufacturing:

http://www.greenbaymfgco.com/catalog.php

Dennis


Well dip me in ****. Saved for further reference. Thanks much. Though
I dont think much of leadloy for this application, its a GREAT link!

They are a bit pricy on their acme nuts..but not terribly so. Im
getting ready to start repairing the litle horizontal/verticle
Hales/Yamazon/Red Dragon Noodle and Machinetool Collective miller and
they have at least half the nut I need.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:10:52 +0100, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:

Gee, all that work for a $8.60 part!
Steve

This is a machining hobby group..right? Im learning to be a
machinist. I think of this as a practical application/lab in the
course. This is not like making a steam engine, or a V8 or something
hard. I was just asking about the best way to do something simple.

I finished the moving parts this morning, all I need to do now, is
make the attachment bracket that bolts to the bottom of the carraige,
weld the body to the bracket, and make up a handle and weld it to the
handle ring, then attach the handle ring to the sleeve with some set
screws. I made a change in mid stream so I didnt have to use a snap
ring to hold it together..and the handle ring will be adjustable so I
can position it any angle I want. Ill photograph the whole thing when
Im done and its installed. Clausing wanted $400 for it..with a 6 week
turn around time...

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/gunnerasch4570/my_photos

clausing1 album. Shrug...I ddnt think to photograph cutting the groove
in the square bar stock. Actually a piece of P20 I think. Some tough
****. The mystery metal I used for the Body of the thingy..its
magnetic..and it rusts..but ****me it was hard turning..you can see by
the blue chips, and drilling it was interesting..chips came out as
flakes rather than curls. Shrug..I have a 6 foot bar of it..

I saw in the Clausing manual, that there is a gizmo that also attaches
to the run/stop/reverse bar..that you can put on to have the machine
automatically shut off at a certain point...I think thats next on the
list. That one will be a weldment I think. Got to keep my hand in
all the methods.

Gunner




"DT" wrote in message
...
In article ,

says...

Whats the best way to make a square hole in a round piece of material,
without a broach?


Gunner, I know you would probably rather make your own, but these things
are
readily available from Green Bay Manufacturing:

http://www.greenbaymfgco.com/catalog.php

Dennis



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

According to jim rozen :
In article , Gunner Asch says...

Whats the best way to make a square hole in a round piece of material,
without a broach?

I would start with the aforementioned (in two posts no less!)
'lathe as shaper' approach.

Basically bore a somewhat oversized hole in the round, and then
put the 'corners' in with a shaper-type bit in the toolpost by
stroking with the carriage.

The end result does not have to be truly, completely square, it
only has to have square corners. Boring it oversized to start
reduces the amount of material that has to be 'shaped' off
drastically.

And -- even *with* a broach -- you have to bore slightly
oversized, to match the pilot end.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 31 Dec 2005 11:09:42 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner Asch says...

Whats the best way to make a square hole in a round piece of material,
without a broach?

I would start with the aforementioned (in two posts no less!)
'lathe as shaper' approach.

Basically bore a somewhat oversized hole in the round, and then
put the 'corners' in with a shaper-type bit in the toolpost by
stroking with the carriage.

The end result does not have to be truly, completely square, it
only has to have square corners. Boring it oversized to start
reduces the amount of material that has to be 'shaped' off
drastically.

Jim

I DO have a shaper. The drive belt busted. No biggie...$8 or so..but I
wanted to do this an alternative way.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:10:52 +0100, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:

Gee, all that work for a $8.60 part!
Steve

This is a machining hobby group..right? Im learning to be a
machinist. I think of this as a practical application/lab in the
course. This is not like making a steam engine, or a V8 or something
hard. I was just asking about the best way to do something simple.

I agree. It's not always about the cost----what you went through is a good
learning experience.

snip--

The mystery metal I used for the Body of the thingy..its
magnetic..and it rusts..but ****me it was hard turning..you can see by
the blue chips, and drilling it was interesting..chips came out as
flakes rather than curls. Shrug..I have a 6 foot bar of it..

That could be chrome moly, by the machining description. If it's 4140,
4143 or 4340, it won't like being welded.

Harold

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 15:28:25 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:10:52 +0100, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:

Gee, all that work for a $8.60 part!
Steve

This is a machining hobby group..right? Im learning to be a
machinist. I think of this as a practical application/lab in the
course. This is not like making a steam engine, or a V8 or something
hard. I was just asking about the best way to do something simple.

I agree. It's not always about the cost----what you went through is a good
learning experience.

snip--

The mystery metal I used for the Body of the thingy..its
magnetic..and it rusts..but ****me it was hard turning..you can see by
the blue chips, and drilling it was interesting..chips came out as
flakes rather than curls. Shrug..I have a 6 foot bar of it..

That could be chrome moly, by the machining description. If it's 4140,
4143 or 4340, it won't like being welded.

Harold


It probably is CM. I figure I can tig it with stainless filler rod. If
not..Ill make an over sleeve out of something known, or bore a hole in
a chunk of 1" plate and hold it in place with set screws or snap
rings. The mount needs to be adjustable in 3 planes so the square hole
lines up properly with the shaft..so it will be assembled, clamped,
marked then tigged, or even slotted and assembled with bolts.

This is all part of the fun.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 15:28:25 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:10:52 +0100, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:

Gee, all that work for a $8.60 part!
Steve

This is a machining hobby group..right? Im learning to be a
machinist. I think of this as a practical application/lab in the
course. This is not like making a steam engine, or a V8 or something
hard. I was just asking about the best way to do something simple.

I agree. It's not always about the cost----what you went through is a good
learning experience.

snip--

The mystery metal I used for the Body of the thingy..its
magnetic..and it rusts..but ****me it was hard turning..you can see by
the blue chips, and drilling it was interesting..chips came out as
flakes rather than curls. Shrug..I have a 6 foot bar of it..

That could be chrome moly, by the machining description. If it's 4140,
4143 or 4340, it won't like being welded.

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree at least a little in this
statement. I actually believe that 4140 was developed to be a high
strength material that could be welded reliably. Yes care should be
taken but it's definitely weldable by any of the low hydrogen
processes without complicated heating schedules like many of the
higher carbon steels. Now I don't recommend machining it near the weld
after it's been welded without proper preheat and post heat. While not
impossible it does make it hard to enough to make it tough to maintain
tolerance compared to the softer material near it (in other words the
cutter does like to ride on top of the hard metal :-).

A example that comes to mind is a pto shaft I repaired a while back.
The splined shaft had sheared off just at the transition from the
bearing land to the large portion that went into the tube. I repaired
it by welding a large chunk of shaft I sawed from a old pump jack tail
bearing shaft onto the remains of the splined shaft. I then turned it
to fit the tube and the bearing. Unknown to me till I went to machine
it but that particular pump jack bearing had been repaired with one of
the above alloys being used for the shaft (some what unusual, most are
mild steel). I found out once I started returning the area where the
ball bearing was to sit. Nice little hard ring right around the shaft
up to the weld deposit. I managed to turn it but it required a light
cut and sharp tool to keep that area from being larger than the softer
material around it. That shaft later failed but it didn't fail at my
weld. It failed further down the shaft near the actual splines the
second time around.

Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm

"Wayne Cook" wrote in message
...
snip--

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree at least a little in this
statement. I actually believe that 4140 was developed to be a high
strength material that could be welded reliably.


Oh, yeah! It's not that it can't be welded, but more so that when folks
like us weld on it, we're asking for cracks or other problems. When
it's welded to MIL specs, how it's handled is ultra critical, and must see a
heat treat oven in short order.

Just a caution that welding on it like it's mild steel can yield certain
surprises, including a weld so hard you can't do anything with it if
necessary, aside from grinding. Hell, you can weld cast iron with
7018------it just doesn't turn out too well.

Harold

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 17:22:35 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Wayne Cook" wrote in message
.. .
snip--

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree at least a little in this
statement. I actually believe that 4140 was developed to be a high
strength material that could be welded reliably.


Oh, yeah! It's not that it can't be welded, but more so that when folks
like us weld on it, we're asking for cracks or other problems. When
it's welded to MIL specs, how it's handled is ultra critical, and must see a
heat treat oven in short order.

Just a caution that welding on it like it's mild steel can yield certain
surprises, including a weld so hard you can't do anything with it if
necessary, aside from grinding. Hell, you can weld cast iron with
7018------it just doesn't turn out too well.

Note that I didn't say it was without problems. Note also that I
stated "reliably". It can be darn hard to get a reliable weld in most
other high carbon steels. I'm not trying to be confrontational about
this (I even started to not respond to this since it's just things
like this that start the wars that are making this group less than it
was when it started).

I just stated that with a low hydrogen process and attention to not
cooling it to quickly (don't dunk it in water), and preferably some
preheat in the piece it's very possible to make a strong weld in 4140.

As for the machining I said flat out that it tends to get pretty darn
hard if not treated properly after the weld. Several times in that
post IRRC.

As for cast iron I'm of the opinion that there's nothing that will
replace brazing. I don't even use nickel rods unless I'm force to for
some reason or another.

Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm

"Wayne Cook" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 17:22:35 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Wayne Cook" wrote in message
.. .
snip--

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree at least a little in this
statement. I actually believe that 4140 was developed to be a high
strength material that could be welded reliably.


Oh, yeah! It's not that it can't be welded, but more so that when folks
like us weld on it, we're asking for cracks or other problems. When
it's welded to MIL specs, how it's handled is ultra critical, and must
see a
heat treat oven in short order.

Just a caution that welding on it like it's mild steel can yield certain
surprises, including a weld so hard you can't do anything with it if
necessary, aside from grinding. Hell, you can weld cast iron with
7018------it just doesn't turn out too well.

Note that I didn't say it was without problems. Note also that I
stated "reliably". It can be darn hard to get a reliable weld in most
other high carbon steels. I'm not trying to be confrontational about
this (I even started to not respond to this since it's just things
like this that start the wars that are making this group less than it
was when it started).

I just stated that with a low hydrogen process and attention to not
cooling it to quickly (don't dunk it in water), and preferably some
preheat in the piece it's very possible to make a strong weld in 4140.

As for the machining I said flat out that it tends to get pretty darn
hard if not treated properly after the weld. Several times in that
post IRRC.

As for cast iron I'm of the opinion that there's nothing that will
replace brazing. I don't even use nickel rods unless I'm force to for
some reason or another.

Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm

Don't get the wrong impression, Wayne. I'm not hot, nor was I upset by your
response. Just adding more comments to what is a good conversation and a
learning experience for everyone that isn't familiar. I figure you and I
have exchanged views long enough that we understand one another.

To quote what you said earlier:

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree at least a little in this
statement. I actually believe that 4140 was developed to be a high
strength material that could be welded reliably.

The material in question here is actually 4130, not 4140 or the others
(4340 is chrome nickel moly). 4130 is low enough in carbon that it won't
heat treat hard enough to create the problems the others do, and *can* be
welded reliably.

Harold

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 22:22:52 -0600, Wayne Cook
wrote:

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 17:22:35 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Wayne Cook" wrote in message
. ..
snip--

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree at least a little in this
statement. I actually believe that 4140 was developed to be a high
strength material that could be welded reliably.


Oh, yeah! It's not that it can't be welded, but more so that when folks
like us weld on it, we're asking for cracks or other problems. When
it's welded to MIL specs, how it's handled is ultra critical, and must see a
heat treat oven in short order.

Just a caution that welding on it like it's mild steel can yield certain
surprises, including a weld so hard you can't do anything with it if
necessary, aside from grinding. Hell, you can weld cast iron with
7018------it just doesn't turn out too well.

Note that I didn't say it was without problems. Note also that I
stated "reliably". It can be darn hard to get a reliable weld in most
other high carbon steels. I'm not trying to be confrontational about
this (I even started to not respond to this since it's just things
like this that start the wars that are making this group less than it
was when it started).

I just stated that with a low hydrogen process and attention to not
cooling it to quickly (don't dunk it in water), and preferably some
preheat in the piece it's very possible to make a strong weld in 4140.

As for the machining I said flat out that it tends to get pretty darn
hard if not treated properly after the weld. Several times in that
post IRRC.

As for cast iron I'm of the opinion that there's nothing that will
replace brazing. I don't even use nickel rods unless I'm force to for
some reason or another.

Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm

Giuys..Ive got lots more of it..so Ill take some chunks and see if it
welds ok. Ill try SS filler first.

Ill get back to yall on it.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 04:31:00 GMT, Gunner Asch
wrote:

Whats the best way to make a square hole in a round piece of material,
without a broach? The round rod needs to be split, so it can be
placed over a 5/8 square rod, and then be able to slide along that
square rod

The problem: I need a round bar, with a 5/8" square hole in the
center, to go over the square "run fowards/stop/run reverse" rod that
runs the length of the bed, under the acme threading screw, and the
feed rod.

The lathe is missing the run/stop/reverse lever and assembly, so I
want to make one. Pretty simple..but Ive been banging my head over
the best way to make something that simple. I finally did accomplish
it..but it was a serious pain in the ass.

I ultimately milled a half depth 5/8 wide groove in a 5" long chunk of
scrap stock, cut it in half so I had two halves, then milled all sides
so it was semi square, then chucked it in a 4 jaw, indicated on a 5/8
round stock slipped into the square hole, then turned to
diameter,about half the lenght, then removed, then put into a 3 jaw,
clamping on the already turned secton, then re-turned the last half to
match the first.

There has to be an easier way ( the shaper blew a drive belt..so its
on the Fix list)

This round with square hole gizmo..will be installed inside of a bore
that will be bolted to the bottom of the carraige, with the
run/stop/reverse rod running throuigh it. The assembly will remain
fixed..the round with square, will be the actuator for the swtich
rod..using a handle

Gunner

I'd make it in two pieces as you did, drill holes and insert locator
pins, and silverbraze it with EasyFlo45. Holler by email with
snailmail addy if you'd like a foot or three of that, Jerry Martes
gave me a lifetime supply I'd be happy to share some of. It's good
****, Maynard! Stronger than a good TIG weld in some sits.

On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 01:39:48 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 04:31:00 GMT, Gunner Asch
wrote:

Whats the best way to make a square hole in a round piece of material,
without a broach? The round rod needs to be split, so it can be
placed over a 5/8 square rod, and then be able to slide along that
square rod

The problem: I need a round bar, with a 5/8" square hole in the
center, to go over the square "run fowards/stop/run reverse" rod that
runs the length of the bed, under the acme threading screw, and the
feed rod.

The lathe is missing the run/stop/reverse lever and assembly, so I
want to make one. Pretty simple..but Ive been banging my head over
the best way to make something that simple. I finally did accomplish
it..but it was a serious pain in the ass.

I ultimately milled a half depth 5/8 wide groove in a 5" long chunk of
scrap stock, cut it in half so I had two halves, then milled all sides
so it was semi square, then chucked it in a 4 jaw, indicated on a 5/8
round stock slipped into the square hole, then turned to
diameter,about half the lenght, then removed, then put into a 3 jaw,
clamping on the already turned secton, then re-turned the last half to
match the first.

There has to be an easier way ( the shaper blew a drive belt..so its
on the Fix list)

This round with square hole gizmo..will be installed inside of a bore
that will be bolted to the bottom of the carraige, with the
run/stop/reverse rod running throuigh it. The assembly will remain
fixed..the round with square, will be the actuator for the swtich
rod..using a handle

Gunner

I'd make it in two pieces as you did, drill holes and insert locator
pins, and silverbraze it with EasyFlo45. Holler by email with
snailmail addy if you'd like a foot or three of that, Jerry Martes
gave me a lifetime supply I'd be happy to share some of. It's good
****, Maynard! Stronger than a good TIG weld in some sits.

Did you see the pics of the semi completed assembly, and its
application? Its pretty much done, but thank you ever so much for the
kind offer. I really wanted the thing to be in two pieces for eventual
wear adjustment. I can simply bend a piece of some material in a long
U shape, and put 2 of them in the gizmo.


From an erlier post

This is a machining hobby group..right? Im learning to be a
machinist. I think of this as a practical application/lab in the
course. This is not like making a steam engine, or a V8 or something
hard. I was just asking about the best way to do something simple.

I finished the moving parts this morning, all I need to do now, is
make the attachment bracket that bolts to the bottom of the carraige,
weld the body to the bracket, and make up a handle and weld it to the
handle ring, then attach the handle ring to the sleeve with some set
screws. I made a change in mid stream so I didnt have to use a snap
ring to hold it together..and the handle ring will be adjustable so I
can position it any angle I want. Ill photograph the whole thing when
Im done and its installed. Clausing wanted $400 for it..with a 6 week
turn around time...

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/gunnerasch4570/my_photos

clausing1 album. Shrug...I ddnt think to photograph cutting the groove
in the square bar stock. Actually a piece of P20 I think. Some tough
****. The mystery metal I used for the Body of the thingy..its
magnetic..and it rusts..but ****me it was hard turning..you can see by
the blue chips, and drilling it was interesting..chips came out as
flakes rather than curls. Shrug..I have a 6 foot bar of it..

I saw in the Clausing manual, that there is a gizmo that also attaches
to the run/stop/reverse bar..that you can put on to have the machine
automatically shut off at a certain point...I think thats next on the
list. That one will be a weldment I think. Got to keep my hand in
all the methods.

Gunner
"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 21:38:27 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Wayne Cook" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 17:22:35 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


Don't get the wrong impression, Wayne. I'm not hot, nor was I upset by your
response. Just adding more comments to what is a good conversation and a
learning experience for everyone that isn't familiar. I figure you and I
have exchanged views long enough that we understand one another.

Agreed.

To quote what you said earlier:

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree at least a little in this
statement. I actually believe that 4140 was developed to be a high
strength material that could be welded reliably.

The material in question here is actually 4130, not 4140 or the others
(4340 is chrome nickel moly). 4130 is low enough in carbon that it won't
heat treat hard enough to create the problems the others do, and *can* be
welded reliably.

Ok. I'll buy that. All of my higher alloy stock like that is unknown
so I can't pin down the exact alloy. Experience has taught me how to
recognize that it's one of the chrome molly alloys when I do run
across it though.

Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm

On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 09:06:44 GMT, Gunner Asch
wrote:



This is a machining hobby group..right? Im learning to be a
machinist. I think of this as a practical application/lab in the
course. This is not like making a steam engine, or a V8 or something
hard. I was just asking about the best way to do something simple.

Right on. Some of the most interesting posts are the ingenious ways
that folks do things with what they have in their garage, lacking a
full CNC shop with waterjet, EDM, CNC plasma, laser, E-beam
welding.......

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 22:22:52 -0600, Wayne Cook
wrote:



As for cast iron I'm of the opinion that there's nothing that will
replace brazing. I don't even use nickel rods unless I'm force to for
some reason or another.

Ever try "railroad rod" with Ferro-Flux and O/A? I wouldn't say
that it's better than good brazing, but it works quite well and
affords perfect color match -- which doesn't matter if the piece is
painted.

I've used it to repair some intricate "lacey" cast iron things, like
cracked foot treadles for antique sewing machines. It doesn't really
puddle, you kind of mush it in. It's hard to find.

On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 12:33:51 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 22:22:52 -0600, Wayne Cook
wrote:



As for cast iron I'm of the opinion that there's nothing that will
replace brazing. I don't even use nickel rods unless I'm force to for
some reason or another.

Ever try "railroad rod" with Ferro-Flux and O/A? I wouldn't say
that it's better than good brazing, but it works quite well and
affords perfect color match -- which doesn't matter if the piece is
painted.

No I've never tried it. I do have some of the rod but I don't think
I've got any of the flux (there's a lot of different kinds of flux out
there but I don't remember that kind).

I've used it to repair some intricate "lacey" cast iron things, like
cracked foot treadles for antique sewing machines. It doesn't really
puddle, you kind of mush it in. It's hard to find.

In situations where you want a color match and don't care about the
hardness I'm sure it's great.

Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm

On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 12:43:26 -0600, Wayne Cook
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 12:33:51 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 22:22:52 -0600, Wayne Cook
wrote:



As for cast iron I'm of the opinion that there's nothing that will
replace brazing. I don't even use nickel rods unless I'm force to for
some reason or another.

Ever try "railroad rod" with Ferro-Flux and O/A? I wouldn't say
that it's better than good brazing, but it works quite well and
affords perfect color match -- which doesn't matter if the piece is
painted.

No I've never tried it. I do have some of the rod but I don't think
I've got any of the flux (there's a lot of different kinds of flux out
there but I don't remember that kind).

I've used it to repair some intricate "lacey" cast iron things, like
cracked foot treadles for antique sewing machines. It doesn't really
puddle, you kind of mush it in. It's hard to find.

In situations where you want a color match and don't care about the
hardness I'm sure it's great.

It's about like the parent metal in hardness, is easily worked with a
file.

On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 15:27:27 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 12:43:26 -0600, Wayne Cook
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 12:33:51 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 22:22:52 -0600, Wayne Cook
wrote:



As for cast iron I'm of the opinion that there's nothing that will
replace brazing. I don't even use nickel rods unless I'm force to for
some reason or another.

Ever try "railroad rod" with Ferro-Flux and O/A? I wouldn't say
that it's better than good brazing, but it works quite well and
affords perfect color match -- which doesn't matter if the piece is
painted.

No I've never tried it. I do have some of the rod but I don't think
I've got any of the flux (there's a lot of different kinds of flux out
there but I don't remember that kind).

I've used it to repair some intricate "lacey" cast iron things, like
cracked foot treadles for antique sewing machines. It doesn't really
puddle, you kind of mush it in. It's hard to find.

In situations where you want a color match and don't care about the
hardness I'm sure it's great.

It's about like the parent metal in hardness, is easily worked with a
file.

Ok. I wasn't sure since cast iron does like to get really hard when
treated improperly.

Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm

On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 09:47:16 -0600, Wayne Cook
wrote:

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 21:38:27 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Wayne Cook" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 17:22:35 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


Don't get the wrong impression, Wayne. I'm not hot, nor was I upset by your
response. Just adding more comments to what is a good conversation and a
learning experience for everyone that isn't familiar. I figure you and I
have exchanged views long enough that we understand one another.

Agreed.

To quote what you said earlier:

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree at least a little in this
statement. I actually believe that 4140 was developed to be a high
strength material that could be welded reliably.

The material in question here is actually 4130, not 4140 or the others
(4340 is chrome nickel moly). 4130 is low enough in carbon that it won't
heat treat hard enough to create the problems the others do, and *can* be
welded reliably.

Ok. I'll buy that. All of my higher alloy stock like that is unknown
so I can't pin down the exact alloy. Experience has taught me how to
recognize that it's one of the chrome molly alloys when I do run
across it though.

Just to add to this discussion...

I walked out to the garage and took a look. My old Schwinn
Probe mountain bike frame claims to be True Temper Chrome
Molly 4130. As you can imagine, it has quite a few welds on
it. This was only a low end bike a good many years ago now
when Chrome Molly frames were quite popular. The frame has
held up well (~40,000 miles) and is quite stiff. For the
price I paid for it (~$350), it can't be too difficult to
weld.
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 14:43:03 -0500, Leon Fisk
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 09:47:16 -0600, Wayne Cook
wrote:

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 21:38:27 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Wayne Cook" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 17:22:35 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


Don't get the wrong impression, Wayne. I'm not hot, nor was I upset by your
response. Just adding more comments to what is a good conversation and a
learning experience for everyone that isn't familiar. I figure you and I
have exchanged views long enough that we understand one another.

Agreed.

To quote what you said earlier:

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree at least a little in this
statement. I actually believe that 4140 was developed to be a high
strength material that could be welded reliably.

The material in question here is actually 4130, not 4140 or the others
(4340 is chrome nickel moly). 4130 is low enough in carbon that it won't
heat treat hard enough to create the problems the others do, and *can* be
welded reliably.

Ok. I'll buy that. All of my higher alloy stock like that is unknown
so I can't pin down the exact alloy. Experience has taught me how to
recognize that it's one of the chrome molly alloys when I do run
across it though.

Just to add to this discussion...

I walked out to the garage and took a look. My old Schwinn
Probe mountain bike frame claims to be True Temper Chrome
Molly 4130. As you can imagine, it has quite a few welds on
it. This was only a low end bike a good many years ago now
when Chrome Molly frames were quite popular. The frame has
held up well (~40,000 miles) and is quite stiff. For the
price I paid for it (~$350), it can't be too difficult to
weld.

Airframe builders weld 4130 routinely, usually with O/A.
Bikebuilders do too, usually with TIG.

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 09:47:16 -0600, Wayne Cook
wrote:

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 21:38:27 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Wayne Cook" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 17:22:35 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


Don't get the wrong impression, Wayne. I'm not hot, nor was I upset by
your
response. Just adding more comments to what is a good conversation and
a
learning experience for everyone that isn't familiar. I figure you and
I
have exchanged views long enough that we understand one another.

Agreed.

To quote what you said earlier:

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree at least a little in this
statement. I actually believe that 4140 was developed to be a high
strength material that could be welded reliably.

The material in question here is actually 4130, not 4140 or the others
(4340 is chrome nickel moly). 4130 is low enough in carbon that it
won't
heat treat hard enough to create the problems the others do, and *can*
be
welded reliably.

4130 was developed specifically for aircraft applications in the 1920s. It
was designed for reliable welding, good ductility, toughness, and strength,
generally in thin sections, primarily as tubing. It can take heavy shock
loads very well.

Initially it was expected to be welded with O/A. Through the 1930s, many
tubular aircraft spaceframes, including those for military aircraft, were
welded with stick -- yes, stick.

It has a quirk. It has a slow quench-hardening rate, approaching that of
air-hardening steels. So welds can wind up hard, with a transition to a
soft, more-or-less annealed heat-affected zone (HAZ), and then with another
transition to the parent metal, which usually is normalized and a bit harder
than annealed. It depends on weld thickness and welding method.

So there is a long-standing controversy over whether to "stress-relieve" the
welds. Most aircraft weldors today say not to, in sections thinner than
1/8".

FWIW I ran some informal, non-scientific tests on TIG-welded 4130, 3/4"
tubing with 0.065" wall thickness (16 guage) a few years ago. I smashed them
with a hammer on an anvil until they were flatter than a road-killed
'possum. The welds were the qualification samples my welding instructor had
performed for an Air Force airframe-repair re-certification, and they were
really good welds. It was an experiment/demonstration for the class.

They did not crack until I had them smashed about dead flat, and then the
cracks started on the surface and did not penetrate. The parent tubing was
beginning to crack at the same stage of smashing. So much for all of the
controversy, as far as I'm concerned.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
snip-------

They did not crack until I had them smashed about dead flat, and then the
cracks started on the surface and did not penetrate. The parent tubing was
beginning to crack at the same stage of smashing. So much for all of the
controversy, as far as I'm concerned.

--
Ed Huntress


I agree----but *only* with 4130. The higher carbon content of 4140 and
greater changes all of that. That was my original point.

Harold

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
snip-------

They did not crack until I had them smashed about dead flat, and then
the
cracks started on the surface and did not penetrate. The parent tubing
was
beginning to crack at the same stage of smashing. So much for all of the
controversy, as far as I'm concerned.

--
Ed Huntress


I agree----but *only* with 4130. The higher carbon content of 4140 and
greater changes all of that. That was my original point.

That could well be true, probably in proportion to a similar increase in
carbon in plain-carbon grades.

Keep in mind that chromium increases the hardening potential of carbon, so
the material's carbon-related properties are somewhat higher than you would
have for 1030 or 1040, respectively.

--
Ed Huntress