Awl--

Jes wunnerin--

In the new litany of home shows (which, if ever there were sleight-of-hand,
these are proly it--as bad as weight loss/fitness infomercials??), I see
everybody mig'ing away, incl. female pixies.
Even on the ng's, I see little reference to stick, and mig has seem to have
excluded stick even in HD/Sears, and gotten so cheap--not too long ago it
was really big bucks
..
The trades (the SEJW crowd) I would imagine still stick weld, but it seems
that mig's abilities have really grown to handle stick-type
one'sies/two'sies tack-weld/out-of-position type stuff.
Opinions?
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message
...
Awl--

Jes wunnerin--

In the new litany of home shows (which, if ever there were
sleight-of-hand, these are proly it--as bad as weight loss/fitness
infomercials??), I see everybody mig'ing away, incl. female pixies.
Even on the ng's, I see little reference to stick, and mig has seem to
have excluded stick even in HD/Sears, and gotten so cheap--not too long
ago it was really big bucks
.
The trades (the SEJW crowd) I would imagine still stick weld, but it seems
that mig's abilities have really grown to handle stick-type
one'sies/two'sies tack-weld/out-of-position type stuff.
Opinions?
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll


It all depends on what you are welding. MIG guns are like hot glue guns.
You just point it where you want to put the molten glue, and pull the
trigger. You don't have to think a lot.

With rod, it is much harder, and takes much longer to learn to do right.
With MIG, you just glop some on there, and it will hold for most
applications.

MIG is used by professional welders for larger applications, but then, it is
flux cored and approaches the performance of stick in penetration, fusion,
and tensile strength.

I love those programs where the gals with big hair are welding with that big
hair hanging out of the helmet. They'd be bald in a week with a hundred
dingleberry scabs on their scalps in a real shop. Plus, I love it when they
use a welding hood to OA. And then, on top of it, they have a huge yellow
flame coming out the tip, like it's going to do something relative to
welding/cutting. LMAO every time I see it.

MIGs are great. They are just used so much because they are easy to learn,
and work good enough for the average project. Anyone who really wants
something to hold, or where lives depend on it, use stick.

Steve

Well, I'm just a hobby welder, and I use stick on old metal. It's a lot
better on a rusty/dirty surface. Still, I use mig for a lot more stuff.
For almost any production setup MIG is going to be used a lot more...
I'd bet there are exceptions, like naval shipyards or something.

Makes me feel better, less of a dinosaur.

Q: The wire that is not flux cored uses no flux at all, then?? Is the wire
some special alloy that gets by w/o flux?? Reminds me of when I tried to
stick weld w/ long nails....

I guess the bottom line is that stick is still the more versatile--which
makes me feel even more betterer.

So these shows *are* sleight of hand!
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"SteveB" wrote in message
news:Z85cf.59974$fE5.19241@fed1read06...

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message
...
Awl--

Jes wunnerin--

In the new litany of home shows (which, if ever there were
sleight-of-hand, these are proly it--as bad as weight loss/fitness
infomercials??), I see everybody mig'ing away, incl. female pixies.
Even on the ng's, I see little reference to stick, and mig has seem to
have excluded stick even in HD/Sears, and gotten so cheap--not too long
ago it was really big bucks
.
The trades (the SEJW crowd) I would imagine still stick weld, but it
seems that mig's abilities have really grown to handle stick-type
one'sies/two'sies tack-weld/out-of-position type stuff.
Opinions?
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll


It all depends on what you are welding. MIG guns are like hot glue guns.
You just point it where you want to put the molten glue, and pull the
trigger. You don't have to think a lot.

With rod, it is much harder, and takes much longer to learn to do right.
With MIG, you just glop some on there, and it will hold for most
applications.

MIG is used by professional welders for larger applications, but then, it
is flux cored and approaches the performance of stick in penetration,
fusion, and tensile strength.

I love those programs where the gals with big hair are welding with that
big hair hanging out of the helmet. They'd be bald in a week with a
hundred dingleberry scabs on their scalps in a real shop. Plus, I love it
when they use a welding hood to OA. And then, on top of it, they have a
huge yellow flame coming out the tip, like it's going to do something
relative to welding/cutting. LMAO every time I see it.

MIGs are great. They are just used so much because they are easy to
learn, and work good enough for the average project. Anyone who really
wants something to hold, or where lives depend on it, use stick.

Steve

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
Makes me feel better, less of a dinosaur.

Q: The wire that is not flux cored uses no flux at all, then?? Is the wire
some special alloy that gets by w/o flux?? Reminds me of when I tried to
stick weld w/ long nails....

I tried that, too. Pretty much impossible. The nail sticks to the work
like a strong magnet (somewhere I read that was where stick welding got
its name, but it could be a myth). I also tried a pencil. I shaved off
all the wood at one end and clamped it in the electrode holder. Better
than the nail, and made a cool noise, but the wood caught fire.

Chris

Here are some of the differences between stick and MIG:

1. stick is cheaper, probably cheapEST
2. MIG is easier to learn
3. MIG welders can be set up to run aluminum, stick can't
4. stick - smoke & sparks, MIG much less so (can MIG indoors w/out ventilation)
5. MIG hardwire w/gas is easiest cert test to pass by far
6. can run MIG vertical downhill *or* uphill, stick uphill only for strength
7. MIG hardwire w/gas needs no weld cleaning, little spatter
8. MIG can weld sheetmetal, stick can't

I use both, now. I lived with stick only for many years. I like my new MIG
welder (a Millermatic 250 with 30A spoolgun).

However, for welding a lot of horizontal welds on clean structural steel for
money, I still use stick because it's cheaper. Might change if I ever have to
work faster.

GWE

Christopher Tidy wrote:
Proctologically Violated©® wrote:

Makes me feel better, less of a dinosaur.

Q: The wire that is not flux cored uses no flux at all, then?? Is the
wire some special alloy that gets by w/o flux?? Reminds me of when I
tried to stick weld w/ long nails....


I tried that, too. Pretty much impossible. The nail sticks to the work
like a strong magnet (somewhere I read that was where stick welding got
its name, but it could be a myth). I also tried a pencil. I shaved off
all the wood at one end and clamped it in the electrode holder. Better
than the nail, and made a cool noise, but the wood caught fire.

But in answer to your question, as others have pointed out, stick
welding is alive and well. The machines and consumables are pretty
cheap, it works well on dirty metal, and if you get a decent machine it
will tolerate damp and dust and still pretty much last forever. I've had
a stick welder for 9 years and see no reason to get a MIG, but I
probably would if I was doing something different, like car bodywork
perhaps. Mine is a 1960s machine. I've always meant to try using a MIG
machine out of curiousity, but never got round to it. A friend offered
me a go at his factory, but it never happened and now the factory has
closed down. Sometime I might try TIG or gas welding if I have the
money, and hopefully it will be easier to switch from stick to TIG or
gas than it would be if I'd started with MIG. But for now stick suits me
fine.

Chris

On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 12:04:26 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

Awl--

Jes wunnerin--

In the new litany of home shows (which, if ever there were sleight-of-hand,
these are proly it--as bad as weight loss/fitness infomercials??), I see
everybody mig'ing away, incl. female pixies.
Even on the ng's, I see little reference to stick, and mig has seem to have
excluded stick even in HD/Sears, and gotten so cheap--not too long ago it
was really big bucks
.
The trades (the SEJW crowd) I would imagine still stick weld, but it seems
that mig's abilities have really grown to handle stick-type
one'sies/two'sies tack-weld/out-of-position type stuff.
Opinions?
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

Pretty much. I modified my trailer this weekend, and used both stick
and mig. Stick on the parts that were big, clunky and needed some deep
penetration/holding power. Mig got the other 80%

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Uh, who was talking about TIG?

Ignoramus32681 wrote:

I am confused. Why would stick electrodes, per lb of actual weld
material (minus slag) be any cheaper than, say, tig filler.

For example, TIG filler rod 70S-2 costs $15.40 per 5 lb at McMaster,
item 96F4915.

E7018 welding electrodes cost $13 per 5 lb. item 7973A577. A little
less, but consider that every pound of stick electrodes contains a lof
of flux than is not present in tig electrodes.

So, tig welding beads do not have any more $$ in them than stick
welding beads (although gas adds up to cost).

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
Uh, who was talking about TIG?


I think Iggy is overTIGged with his new playtoy, and sees TIG in everything
from pasta to toilet paper rolls.

Steve

Ignoramus32681 wrote:

On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 11:16:29 -0800, SteveB wrote:

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
Uh, who was talking about TIG?


I think Iggy is overTIGged with his new playtoy, and sees TIG in everything
from pasta to toilet paper rolls.

I am definitely overtigged, but the same thing as I said applied to
MIG wi an 11 lbs spool of MIG wire ER 70S-6 costs $26.80 (mcmaster
item 7678A87). Its 5 lb equivalent would cost 5/11*26.80, or $12.18.

MIG wire is not more expensive that stick electrodes. Plus, in case of
mig wire, there are no discards like with little stick electrode
pieces that are discarded.

Maybe I am missing something, I am a welding newbie.

i

I think you're missing the length of MIG wire left in the cable to the
gun when the end of the roll reaches the drive rollers. Since MIG is
typically a pusher drive you aren't going to be able to use this wire
and this would be a good 10'+ depending on the setup.

Pete C.

Grant Erwin wrote in article
...
Here are some of the differences between stick and MIG:


SNIP

3. MIG welders can be set up to run aluminum, stick can't


I have purchased aluminum stick rod from my "Friendly Welding Supply
House", and welded aluminum with it.

You can even buy a package of three-or-four aluminum stick rods at your
local NAPA Auto Parts stores.

It DOES, however, require a DC-capable stick welder....

.....but it is much quicker to throw the switch to DCRP, spin the amperage
wheel, and place an aluminum rod in the stinger on a stick welder than it
is to change over the gas (straight Argon for aluminum), liner, and wire -
or attach a spool gun - on a MIG welder.....especially for a single weld.

Aluminum can also be welded with oxy-acetylene - using a rod, flux, and a
purple lens specifically designed for such an application.

I keep a few of each rod and supplies on hand for that once-in-a-while
need.


SNIP

8. MIG can weld sheetmetal, stick can't


I have used a 1/16" 6013 stick rod to weld sheet metal.

There is also a stick rod available at my "Friendly Welding Supply House"
made specifically for stick-welding sheet metal.

Yup! I still have some - along with some 1/16" 6013 - out in my shop,
although I DO use my MIG for most sheet metal work these days.


Maybe you ought to spend an afternoon browsing around your own, local,
"Friendly Welding Supply House."

You'll be surprised at what sort of things are available.......for the
oxy-acetylene, stick, MIG, and TIG processes.

Maybe I am missing something, I am a welding newbie.

Well, MIG wire is the 'M' part, you are indeed missing the 'IG' part. Welding
gas costs money too, a fair amount in fact. Also, MIG guns have consumables like
tips and nozzles that have to be replaced, and the entire MIG guns don't last
forever. Stick machines are real simple, and require few consumables. You might
have to replace a ground clamp or maybe even an electrode holder, rarely.

Really, stick welding is cheaper. And this doesn't even count capital equipment
costs, either.

MIG machines cost much more than stick machines. There is a clean Miller DialArc
250 languishing in my area for $200. This is a 100% duty cycle heavy duty
industrial DC stick welder. Buying and equipping an "equivalent" MIG welder
would cost you at *least* $1100.

Comparison:

Capital cost: MIG about 4X stick
Electricity cost: about par
Electrode cost: about par
Gas cost: MIG significant, stick zero
Consumables: MIG about 100X stick

GWE

* wrote:
Grant Erwin wrote in article
...

Here are some of the differences between stick and MIG:



SNIP


3. MIG welders can be set up to run aluminum, stick can't



I have purchased aluminum stick rod from my "Friendly Welding Supply
House", and welded aluminum with it.

You can even buy a package of three-or-four aluminum stick rods at your
local NAPA Auto Parts stores.

It DOES, however, require a DC-capable stick welder....

I have heard of alumimium stick electrodes, too. Whether you can get
them for AC I don't know. The guy at the welding supply store said they
were a nightmare to use.

Chris

"SteveB" sez:

"... MIG is used by professional welders for larger applications, but then,
it is
flux cored and approaches the performance of stick in penetration, fusion,
and tensile strength...."

Correct me if I'm wrong, please. But isn't the process of welding with a
flux-cored electrode known as Flux-Cored Arc Welding (FCAW)? It seems this
type is differentiated from ordinary "MIG", [Gas Metal Arc Welding (GMAW)],
by the fact the inert gas is supplied from a core within the spooled
electrode rather than from a tank.

Bob (not a welder) Swinney

"Ignoramus32681" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 11:57:25 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote:

Maybe I am missing something, I am a welding newbie.

Well, MIG wire is the 'M' part, you are indeed missing the 'IG' part.
Welding
gas costs money too, a fair amount in fact. Also, MIG guns have
consumables like
tips and nozzles that have to be replaced, and the entire MIG guns don't
last
forever. Stick machines are real simple, and require few consumables. You
might
have to replace a ground clamp or maybe even an electrode holder, rarely.

Really, stick welding is cheaper. And this doesn't even count capital
equipment
costs, either.

MIG machines cost much more than stick machines. There is a clean Miller
DialArc
250 languishing in my area for $200. This is a 100% duty cycle heavy duty
industrial DC stick welder. Buying and equipping an "equivalent" MIG
welder
would cost you at *least* $1100.

Comparison:

Capital cost: MIG about 4X stick
Electricity cost: about par
Electrode cost: about par
Gas cost: MIG significant, stick zero
Consumables: MIG about 100X stick

That makes sense to me. Steel costs the same, but other expenses are
very different. With mig though, I would not need to chip off
slag. Thanks.

i

But if you get good with a stick the slag falls of by itself in allot of
cases.
Steve

You are correct. Both use the same basic equipment and are often
referred to simple as Mig or wire.

In my very limited experiance MIG welding with C02 on steel produces
very nice welds with very little cleanup. Flux cored gasless created a
huge cloud , spatter all over the place and a weld that needed a
similar amount of cleanup as stick welding.

I would definately use a stick welder if welding up a trailer chassis
since I get a good penetration weld with a single pass.

"Ignoramus32681" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 11:16:29 -0800, SteveB wrote:

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
Uh, who was talking about TIG?


I think Iggy is overTIGged with his new playtoy, and sees TIG in
everything
from pasta to toilet paper rolls.

I am definitely overtigged, but the same thing as I said applied to
MIG wi an 11 lbs spool of MIG wire ER 70S-6 costs $26.80 (mcmaster
item 7678A87). Its 5 lb equivalent would cost 5/11*26.80, or $12.18.

MIG wire is not more expensive that stick electrodes. Plus, in case of
mig wire, there are no discards like with little stick electrode
pieces that are discarded.

Maybe I am missing something, I am a welding newbie.

i


No, Iggy. For a newbie, you are very well informed and on your way.

Steve

Actually, very easy. I used aluminum stick, DCRP, iirc. Hellified, really
hellified--fast, strong, easy, not super-pretty, but very strong, clean
aluminum not req'd. I was amazed. Proly not cheap. Rod consumption is
extremely rapid.
Makes you think twice about the pita of tig'ing alum.

On the subject of aluminum, they have been making 4.5" angle grinding wheels
for aluminum for a while now--also hellified. Very aggressive, do not clog.
Waxy material, not too expensive.
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
* wrote:
Grant Erwin wrote in article
...

Here are some of the differences between stick and MIG:



SNIP


3. MIG welders can be set up to run aluminum, stick can't



I have purchased aluminum stick rod from my "Friendly Welding Supply
House", and welded aluminum with it.

You can even buy a package of three-or-four aluminum stick rods at your
local NAPA Auto Parts stores.

It DOES, however, require a DC-capable stick welder....

I have heard of alumimium stick electrodes, too. Whether you can get them
for AC I don't know. The guy at the welding supply store said they were a
nightmare to use.

Chris

"Robert Swinney" wrote in message
...
"SteveB" sez:

"... MIG is used by professional welders for larger applications, but
then, it is
flux cored and approaches the performance of stick in penetration, fusion,
and tensile strength...."

Correct me if I'm wrong, please. But isn't the process of welding with a
flux-cored electrode known as Flux-Cored Arc Welding (FCAW)? It seems
this type is differentiated from ordinary "MIG", [Gas Metal Arc Welding
(GMAW)], by the fact the inert gas is supplied from a core within the
spooled electrode rather than from a tank.

Bob (not a welder) Swinney

The applications he's referring to would be accomplished with some type of
dual shield cored wire, which uses inert gas plus the flux, etc. in the
wire.

Wire feed processes have left stick welding ( SMAW ) in the dust. Hard
wire MIG is considered 98 percent consumable. Some only claim 95. SMAW is
fortunate to get 65 percent consumable. This means you buy 100 pounds of
rod and only get 65 pounds of metal on the weldment.
All wire feed processes are faster than stick. In the long run in
commercial operations it would be financial suicide to be using SMAW. The
exception might be for small maintenance jobs.
You get cleaner and more consistent weld beads with less stops and
starts. Today I had to run a 3/8th fillet 57 inches long then do the same
thing again. That would have been a long smoky experience with stick. With
metal core wire which is what we use at work I could run a couple of feet of
weld before changing position. Some guys in the shop can run six feet of
weld without stopping but I am not up to it.
Stick welding will always be around just as there still is the odd
person Oxy-acetylene welding.
The only machines in our shop that is exclusively constant current is an
old 600 amp Lincoln that we use for Submerged arc welding and a 400 amp
gasoline portable. I believe we have 14 power sources. It's 12 against 2.
To be really up to date one needs inverters with pulse control and metal
cored wires.
Randy


"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message
...
Awl--

Jes wunnerin--

In the new litany of home shows (which, if ever there were sleight-of-hand,
these are proly it--as bad as weight loss/fitness infomercials??), I see
everybody mig'ing away, incl. female pixies.
Even on the ng's, I see little reference to stick, and mig has seem to have
excluded stick even in HD/Sears, and gotten so cheap--not too long ago it
was really big bucks
..
The trades (the SEJW crowd) I would imagine still stick weld, but it seems
that mig's abilities have really grown to handle stick-type
one'sies/two'sies tack-weld/out-of-position type stuff.
Opinions?
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

Almost all production welding is MIG. MUCH faster metal transfer, much
higher duty cycle (no stops to change rod), much less spatter
(especially in spray mode), decent selection of wire types.

Stick is still the method of choice for the notn standard welds: outside
welding where the wind may blow away a MIG shielding gas, maintenance
(greasy/dirty surfaces), hardsurfacing, pipeline, out of position, etc.

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:

Awl--

Jes wunnerin--

In the new litany of home shows (which, if ever there were sleight-of-hand,
these are proly it--as bad as weight loss/fitness infomercials??), I see
everybody mig'ing away, incl. female pixies.
Even on the ng's, I see little reference to stick, and mig has seem to have
excluded stick even in HD/Sears, and gotten so cheap--not too long ago it
was really big bucks
.
The trades (the SEJW crowd) I would imagine still stick weld, but it seems
that mig's abilities have really grown to handle stick-type
one'sies/two'sies tack-weld/out-of-position type stuff.
Opinions?
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 09:22:30 -0800, "SteveB"
wrote:

MIGs are great. They are just used so much because they are easy to learn,
and work good enough for the average project. Anyone who really wants
something to hold, or where lives depend on it, use stick.

There sure are a lot of ill-informed airframe builders who use TIG and
O/A rather than stick on steel tubing.

On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 18:05:35 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Tidy
wrote:



But in answer to your question, as others have pointed out, stick
welding is alive and well. The machines and consumables are pretty
cheap, it works well on dirty metal, and if you get a decent machine it
will tolerate damp and dust and still pretty much last forever. I've had
a stick welder for 9 years and see no reason to get a MIG, but I
probably would if I was doing something different, like car bodywork
perhaps. Mine is a 1960s machine. I've always meant to try using a MIG
machine out of curiousity, but never got round to it. A friend offered
me a go at his factory, but it never happened and now the factory has
closed down. Sometime I might try TIG or gas welding if I have the
money, and hopefully it will be easier to switch from stick to TIG or
gas than it would be if I'd started with MIG. But for now stick suits me
fine.

Chris

I've built a lot of stuff with stick. Now that I have a good MIG
machine I may never stickweld again. Note: I almost never weld
anything thicker than 1/2".

The appeal is the freedom from smoke and fumes in a cold-climate
region (Minnesota) where being indoors is very appealing during
winter. As has been said, about anyone can get a weld with MIG --
but doing it well takes some practice. I'd learned to watch the
puddle with stick so transition to MIG was easy.

TIG is a whole 'nuther story, the common point being watching the
puddle. It's more like gas welding. It's a lot slower than stick or
MIG, but affords much better control. My mentor gives me no credit
at all for good TIG welds, saying "hell, you can stick dog**** to
windowglass with TIG, what's yer point?"

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 19:25:30 GMT, Ignoramus32681
wrote:

On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 11:16:29 -0800, SteveB wrote:

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
Uh, who was talking about TIG?


I think Iggy is overTIGged with his new playtoy, and sees TIG in everything
from pasta to toilet paper rolls.

I am definitely overtigged, but the same thing as I said applied to
MIG wi an 11 lbs spool of MIG wire ER 70S-6 costs $26.80 (mcmaster
item 7678A87). Its 5 lb equivalent would cost 5/11*26.80, or $12.18.

MIG wire is not more expensive that stick electrodes. Plus, in case of
mig wire, there are no discards like with little stick electrode
pieces that are discarded.

Maybe I am missing something, I am a welding newbie.

Argon and AG25 are pricey. The cost of gas probably exceeds the
cost of filler per hour of welding.

There are lots of clipoffs with MIG. Maybe not in a production
setting with long beads, but I probably clip more MIG wire than I
discarded stick stubs. You want the stickout right for starting.
That's one reason for having MIG pliers and holster for same.

"Don Foreman" wrote in \

Argon and AG25 are pricey. The cost of gas probably exceeds the
cost of filler per hour of welding.


Damn right on that. An 80 of 84/16 mix is around $60 here in Vegas. AND I
GOT AN ACCOUNT!

Steve

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 11:57:25 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote:


Maybe I am missing something, I am a welding newbie.

Well, MIG wire is the 'M' part, you are indeed missing the 'IG' part. Welding
gas costs money too, a fair amount in fact. Also, MIG guns have consumables like
tips and nozzles that have to be replaced, and the entire MIG guns don't last
forever. Stick machines are real simple, and require few consumables. You might
have to replace a ground clamp or maybe even an electrode holder, rarely.

Really, stick welding is cheaper. And this doesn't even count capital equipment
costs, either.

MIG machines cost much more than stick machines. There is a clean Miller DialArc
250 languishing in my area for $200. This is a 100% duty cycle heavy duty
industrial DC stick welder. Buying and equipping an "equivalent" MIG welder
would cost you at *least* $1100.

Comparison:

Capital cost: MIG about 4X stick
Electricity cost: about par
Electrode cost: about par
Gas cost: MIG significant, stick zero
Consumables: MIG about 100X stick

GWE

The DialArc 250 calls for an 80-amp circuit, though I run mine on a
50 amp circuit because I very rarely run it at WOT. A Millermatic
210 MIG machine requires only a 30-amp circuit.

Your $1100 buys a brand new Millermatic 210 if you shop around. I
know I could buy one for under $1200 tomorrow morning at Minneapolis
Oxygen.

Miller doesn't make the DialArc anymore, but an equivalent machine
goes for considerably more than $1100 if bought new.

I agree that stick machines are nearly indestructable while wirefeed
machines do wear over time. That old DialArc 250 probably works
better than some new machines while a wirefeed machine of similar
vintage could well be clapped out.

On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 13:27:09 -0800, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Ignoramus32681" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 11:16:29 -0800, SteveB wrote:

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
Uh, who was talking about TIG?


I think Iggy is overTIGged with his new playtoy, and sees TIG in
everything
from pasta to toilet paper rolls.

I am definitely overtigged, but the same thing as I said applied to
MIG wi an 11 lbs spool of MIG wire ER 70S-6 costs $26.80 (mcmaster
item 7678A87). Its 5 lb equivalent would cost 5/11*26.80, or $12.18.

MIG wire is not more expensive that stick electrodes. Plus, in case of
mig wire, there are no discards like with little stick electrode
pieces that are discarded.

Maybe I am missing something, I am a welding newbie.

i


No, Iggy. For a newbie, you are very well informed and on your way.

Steve

Stop by for a welding lesson from Ig.

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 13:27:09 -0800, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Ignoramus32681" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 11:16:29 -0800, SteveB
wrote:

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
Uh, who was talking about TIG?


I think Iggy is overTIGged with his new playtoy, and sees TIG in
everything
from pasta to toilet paper rolls.

I am definitely overtigged, but the same thing as I said applied to
MIG wi an 11 lbs spool of MIG wire ER 70S-6 costs $26.80 (mcmaster
item 7678A87). Its 5 lb equivalent would cost 5/11*26.80, or $12.18.

MIG wire is not more expensive that stick electrodes. Plus, in case of
mig wire, there are no discards like with little stick electrode
pieces that are discarded.

Maybe I am missing something, I am a welding newbie.

i


No, Iggy. For a newbie, you are very well informed and on your way.

Steve

Stop by for a welding lesson from Ig.


I doubt that will happen, but you do have to give the man a little credit
compared to some of the regular morons in the group. Like some people who
think they know it all and are above learning anything
else..........................

Steve

On 8 Nov 2005 13:16:04 -0800, wrote:

I would definately use a stick welder if welding up a trailer chassis
since I get a good penetration weld with a single pass.

I'd have said that a year ago. I would now use MIG. Maybe you're
talking about heavy trailers. Single pass on 3/8" steel is no
problem with a MIllermatic 210 or similar, and it is a hell of lot
easier to do out-of-position.

I can tell you that it took a lot longer to "unweld" (with angle
grinder) a misplaced MIG-welded 3000-lb spring shackle mount than it
took to weld it. It was solid metal all the way.

Ranger Boats makes pretty good trailers out of 1/4" wall thickness
steel. They are 100% MIG welded. When I talked to Charlie Smi-uth in
the trailer shop at Ranger about a contemplated mod, he advised me to
either MIG weld it or find a shop that could MIG weld it.

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On 8 Nov 2005 13:16:04 -0800, wrote:

I would definately use a stick welder if welding up a trailer chassis
since I get a good penetration weld with a single pass.

I'd have said that a year ago. I would now use MIG. Maybe you're
talking about heavy trailers. Single pass on 3/8" steel is no
problem with a MIllermatic 210 or similar, and it is a hell of lot
easier to do out-of-position.

I can tell you that it took a lot longer to "unweld" (with angle
grinder) a misplaced MIG-welded 3000-lb spring shackle mount than it
took to weld it. It was solid metal all the way.

Ranger Boats makes pretty good trailers out of 1/4" wall thickness
steel. They are 100% MIG welded. When I talked to Charlie Smi-uth in
the trailer shop at Ranger about a contemplated mod, he advised me to
either MIG weld it or find a shop that could MIG weld it.


MIG is definitely the Gorilla Welder of the 21st century.

Steve

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 18:27:37 GMT, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 12:04:26 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

Awl--

Jes wunnerin--

In the new litany of home shows (which, if ever there were sleight-of-hand,
these are proly it--as bad as weight loss/fitness infomercials??), I see
everybody mig'ing away, incl. female pixies.
Even on the ng's, I see little reference to stick, and mig has seem to have
excluded stick even in HD/Sears, and gotten so cheap--not too long ago it
was really big bucks
.
The trades (the SEJW crowd) I would imagine still stick weld, but it seems
that mig's abilities have really grown to handle stick-type
one'sies/two'sies tack-weld/out-of-position type stuff.
Opinions?
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

Pretty much. I modified my trailer this weekend, and used both stick
and mig. Stick on the parts that were big, clunky and needed some deep
penetration/holding power. Mig got the other 80%

Gunner

Ya go with what you're confident with, it's good to understand your
compentencies.

Penetration is a fallacy, (phallusy?). Ernie has agreed with that
view. Fusion is fusion, metal is metal, a puddle is a puddle.
Penetration is important only if the joint situation precludes
full-depth access, as in a flush butt joint in thick material.

I've never encountered a sit like that, but I agree that I'd go with
an aggressive stick like 6010 or 6011 if faced with that problem.
I wouldn't trust that weld overly much.
I'd much rather do a little grinding or leave a gap so I could see
the puddle and know that I'm getting fusion.

On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 01:30:05 GMT, "R. Zimmerman"
wrote:

Wire feed processes have left stick welding ( SMAW ) in the dust. Hard
wire MIG is considered 98 percent consumable. Some only claim 95. SMAW is
fortunate to get 65 percent consumable. This means you buy 100 pounds of
rod and only get 65 pounds of metal on the weldment.
All wire feed processes are faster than stick. In the long run in
commercial operations it would be financial suicide to be using SMAW. The
exception might be for small maintenance jobs.
You get cleaner and more consistent weld beads with less stops and
starts. Today I had to run a 3/8th fillet 57 inches long then do the same
thing again. That would have been a long smoky experience with stick. With
metal core wire which is what we use at work I could run a couple of feet of
weld before changing position. Some guys in the shop can run six feet of
weld without stopping but I am not up to it.
Stick welding will always be around just as there still is the odd
person Oxy-acetylene welding.
The only machines in our shop that is exclusively constant current is an
old 600 amp Lincoln that we use for Submerged arc welding and a 400 amp
gasoline portable. I believe we have 14 power sources. It's 12 against 2.
To be really up to date one needs inverters with pulse control and metal
cored wires.
Randy

High steel construction still uses stick and will for some time.
Mnpls Oxy sells hundreds of pounds of stick a day for that.
A spool gun pulling 1/8" wire 200 feet would be heavy as hell.

On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 01:37:13 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 18:27:37 GMT, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 12:04:26 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

Awl--

Jes wunnerin--

In the new litany of home shows (which, if ever there were sleight-of-hand,
these are proly it--as bad as weight loss/fitness infomercials??), I see
everybody mig'ing away, incl. female pixies.
Even on the ng's, I see little reference to stick, and mig has seem to have
excluded stick even in HD/Sears, and gotten so cheap--not too long ago it
was really big bucks
.
The trades (the SEJW crowd) I would imagine still stick weld, but it seems
that mig's abilities have really grown to handle stick-type
one'sies/two'sies tack-weld/out-of-position type stuff.
Opinions?
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

Pretty much. I modified my trailer this weekend, and used both stick
and mig. Stick on the parts that were big, clunky and needed some deep
penetration/holding power. Mig got the other 80%

Gunner

Ya go with what you're confident with, it's good to understand your
compentencies.

Penetration is a fallacy, (phallusy?). Ernie has agreed with that
view. Fusion is fusion, metal is metal, a puddle is a puddle.
Penetration is important only if the joint situation precludes
full-depth access, as in a flush butt joint in thick material.

I've never encountered a sit like that, but I agree that I'd go with
an aggressive stick like 6010 or 6011 if faced with that problem.
I wouldn't trust that weld overly much.
I'd much rather do a little grinding or leave a gap so I could see
the puddle and know that I'm getting fusion.

I did indeed use 6011. Also bear in mind..that not all MIG machines
are created alike. Running .030 on my old Dan-Mig with CO2 makes for
pretty welds. Except when the material has a heavy coating of
rust..and in inaccessible locations impossible to get a wire wheel
into....stick is a very good option.

But when putting butt welded V channel (.375 thick) into a trailer
frame, while laying on ones back....it had best be a hot machine. Or
dig out the 1/8" 6011

YMMV of course.

Now when I get the Airco Phase Arc mig machine running, I can load her
up with .045 Dual Shield...and using spray..may equal what s simple
stick does.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Don,
I find it odd that stick is used so much in the field in your area. I
always thought that out in Western Canada we were in the backwater. It is a
rare portable rigged truck locally that does not have a suitcase wire feeder
running flux core wire.
These feeders can be dropped through an 18 inch manhole. I will grant
you that short six inch welds may be done more quickly since it does take
time to move a 75 pound feeder and wire. As soon as you have a few feet of
weld in a ten foot radius wire feed starts to pay.
Even in the bush logging and road building equipment is repaired and
hardsurfaced with wire feed.
When you say hundreds of pounds of rod a day are sold I wonder how much
wire is being sold. One man can burn up a forty pound roll of wire in a day
if he is high balling. I have to admit that there are people who use
mechanical typewriters. After all you never know when the power will go
out.
Randy

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...

High steel construction still uses stick and will for some time.
Mnpls Oxy sells hundreds of pounds of stick a day for that.
A spool gun pulling 1/8" wire 200 feet would be heavy as hell.

On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 13:08:23 GMT, "R. Zimmerman"
wrote:

Don,
I find it odd that stick is used so much in the field in your area. I
always thought that out in Western Canada we were in the backwater. It is a
rare portable rigged truck locally that does not have a suitcase wire feeder
running flux core wire.
These feeders can be dropped through an 18 inch manhole. I will grant
you that short six inch welds may be done more quickly since it does take
time to move a 75 pound feeder and wire. As soon as you have a few feet of
weld in a ten foot radius wire feed starts to pay.
Even in the bush logging and road building equipment is repaired and
hardsurfaced with wire feed.
When you say hundreds of pounds of rod a day are sold I wonder how much
wire is being sold. One man can burn up a forty pound roll of wire in a day
if he is high balling. I have to admit that there are people who use
mechanical typewriters. After all you never know when the power will go
out.

There's a lot of differences in area's and type of welding being
done. I can't think of a single person with a suitcase feeder in this
area. But then nearly every welder in this area is a pipe line welder.
No companies around here would let you use wire on a pipe line weld.
It's not proven to them while stick is. In fact there's a lot of
places that won't let you in the gate if you don't have a Lincoln
SAE200 or equivalent Lincoln welder on the truck.

Now a few of these welders do have a MIG in the shop. Mostly used on
thinner stock. But even then it's not trusted for heavy work by most
of them.

I've not got a suitcase primarily because I don't do much field work.
I concentrate on shop welding with only a old Bobcat on the back of my
truck. It doesn't get used more than 6-8 times a year and much of that
is to dirty for MIG. It's just not economical for me to rig it for
MIG.

In the shop is a different story but I still use stick a lot. Most
of my work is repair. A great deal of those repairs are small short
welds in awkward places. It's just not worth the time to drag out the
MIG for many of them. I do use MIG when I can though. I've got a
Miller Dimension 400 with a S-64 wire feeder and a Cobramatic wire
feeder which I use for the heavier work and a Millermatic 135 which
gets a lot of use on lighter work.

I was in my welding suppliers store yesterday. It tells the story
pretty well. There's a huge display of stick rods but just one short
little section of wire.

Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm

On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 13:08:23 GMT, "R. Zimmerman"
wrote:

Don,
I find it odd that stick is used so much in the field in your area. I
always thought that out in Western Canada we were in the backwater. It is a
rare portable rigged truck locally that does not have a suitcase wire feeder
running flux core wire.
These feeders can be dropped through an 18 inch manhole. I will grant
you that short six inch welds may be done more quickly since it does take
time to move a 75 pound feeder and wire. As soon as you have a few feet of
weld in a ten foot radius wire feed starts to pay.
Even in the bush logging and road building equipment is repaired and
hardsurfaced with wire feed.
When you say hundreds of pounds of rod a day are sold I wonder how much
wire is being sold. One man can burn up a forty pound roll of wire in a day
if he is high balling. I have to admit that there are people who use
mechanical typewriters. After all you never know when the power will go
out.
Randy

The power thing was an issue. The guy at the welding store said the
construction guys use gas-powered welders, and gas-powered stick
machines are a lot more common than gas-powered MIG's. But it's
also a matter of thickness. They're burning big rod high above the
ground. The cables are heavy enough; they probably don't want to be
dragging the additional weight of thick wire. Also, it's windy up
there, so it'd be FCAW rather than MIG if they used wire.

Don Foreman wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 13:08:23 GMT, "R. Zimmerman"
wrote:


Don,
I find it odd that stick is used so much in the field in your area. I
always thought that out in Western Canada we were in the backwater. It is a
rare portable rigged truck locally that does not have a suitcase wire feeder
running flux core wire.
These feeders can be dropped through an 18 inch manhole. I will grant
you that short six inch welds may be done more quickly since it does take
time to move a 75 pound feeder and wire. As soon as you have a few feet of
weld in a ten foot radius wire feed starts to pay.
Even in the bush logging and road building equipment is repaired and
hardsurfaced with wire feed.
When you say hundreds of pounds of rod a day are sold I wonder how much
wire is being sold. One man can burn up a forty pound roll of wire in a day
if he is high balling. I have to admit that there are people who use
mechanical typewriters. After all you never know when the power will go
out.
Randy


The power thing was an issue. The guy at the welding store said the
construction guys use gas-powered welders, and gas-powered stick
machines are a lot more common than gas-powered MIG's. But it's
also a matter of thickness. They're burning big rod high above the
ground. The cables are heavy enough; they probably don't want to be
dragging the additional weight of thick wire. Also, it's windy up
there, so it'd be FCAW rather than MIG if they used wire.

Out in the Pacific Northwest, we see lots of ironworkers working on high steel
structures using the little inverter-type suitcase MIG welders, always running
fluxcore. In the Seattle area shipyards, MIG is used a lot in new construction
but stick is still king in ship repair, which is mostly what the yards see these
days (most new ships are built overseas).

The guy with the DialArc 250 says he has run it off a 60A breaker for over 10
years, never popped it once. I'm actually thinking about buying it, sell my
beloved Thunderbolt AC/DC, bet I could get as much for the little one as I'd pay
for the big one. Be a big jump in duty cycle, going from 20% to 100%!

GWE

On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 08:18:48 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote:


The guy with the DialArc 250 says he has run it off a 60A breaker for over 10
years, never popped it once. I'm actually thinking about buying it, sell my
beloved Thunderbolt AC/DC, bet I could get as much for the little one as I'd pay
for the big one. Be a big jump in duty cycle, going from 20% to 100%!

GWE

Ive got a DialArc 250 quietly running under my welding table. Run
everything from 1/16 to 1/4" rod on it. Popped the breaker a couple
times with the 1/4" stuff (70 amp breaker) and long beads. Marvelous
machine, great arc charectoristics, very very comfortable to weld
with. "Gentle" arc on both AC/DC. Just a pleasent hum.

I got mine for...well...you dont want to know. But it was
cheap....lol. Wouldnt trade it for anything. Did have to put a flap
of canvas over the fan though...Last time I fired it up, a big bunch
of hornets came out in various stages of disrepair..and none of them
were any too happy......

Its one hell of a machine, of its type and vintage.

Gunner, not a welder, nor does he play one on tv.
"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Ignoramus18971 wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 13:08:23 GMT, R. Zimmerman wrote:

if he is high balling. I have to admit that there are people who use
mechanical typewriters. After all you never know when the power will go
out.


I recently sold a super nice electrical/electronic typewriter for
$200. It was a part of some military surplus pile. What surprised me
was just how nice was the keyboard, compared to all computer keyboards
that I have seen.

i

Have you used a Sun Type 5 keyboard? In my opinion these are the nicest
computer keyboards ever made. Solidly built, with keys which aren't too
stiff but aren't clackety either. I guess you get what you pay for;
military stuff and Sun computers don't come cheap. That said, the Type 6
keyboards were horrible in comparison.

Chris