from www.foxnews.com - "In the latest FOX News poll, Clinton trounces the
competition and receives the backing of 44 percent of self-described
Democrats. Familiar names - the party's 2004 ticket - follow her:
Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry receives 17 percent and former North Carolina
Sen. John Edwards 14 percent.

Among self-described Republicans, Giuliani (29 percent) edges out Arizona
Sen. John McCain (26 percent). No others receive double-digit support, but
former House Speaker Newt Gingrich is closest at 9 percent..."

As to Hillary's popularity, on www.foxnews,com , hardly a liberal news
source, did a poll and found that:

"...Just over half of voters (52 percent) have a favorable opinion of
Hillary Clinton and about a third unfavorable (37 percent)."

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 06:31:26 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Gunner
quickly quoth:


On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:05:33 -0500, Rex B
wrote:


They have more per-capita nutjobs than the other two parties put
together, unfortunately. McCain would improve the property values but
it would likely cost him any chance of being elected. Can you imagine
how vigorously the Demos & GOP would unite in opposition of a plausible
3rd party?

At this point I'd be happy with a candidate I could halfway trust even
if I disagreed extensively with him/her.

That's basically where I am with McCain

I trust McCain..and thats the problem. He has certainly stated his
positions..and they are not where I wish the Republican Party to go.


But George W. Bush IS?!? AYOOYFM? He's acting more like a Dem than
most Dems do. thud (OK, a wildly schizophrenic Dem.)

Although I don't agree with a few of his stances (guns, abortion), I'd
much rather have McCain in office now than the Shrub. I can't think of
one single issue on which I agree with the Shrub. He's going to
destabilize our country so thoroughly that anyone could waltz in and
take over. The farce they call Homeland Security is just the tip of
the iceberg. We're less safe today than before 9/11, in part due to
the alienation by the entire rest of the world because of his
policies.




After 230 years, this system is getting long in the tooth. History
teaches that republics average about 250 years before they fall into
tyranny. There is plenty of evidence we're on our way to empire, and the
current President and Congress are simply setting up the tools for a
future ruler who will make much better use of them in a police state.
The sad part for me is that I'd always imagined Republicans would govern
differently than the corrupt Dems they replaced. Hillary? She's a
shoe-in, and IMO she may well be the last elected executive for this
country. I can see her wearing a crown, can't you?

Gunner wrote:
If I wanted to vote for a Democrat, no matter the color of his
fleece..Id vote for Joe Leiberman, rather than McCain

There was a time I'd agree. Then during summer of 2004, there was a
minor situation in Midland TX. Some decision by the city affected a
largely black section of the city in a small way (I've forgotten the
issue). There were a couple of vociferous blacks raising Cain, while for
the majority it was a non-issue. Joe flies in for a contrived photo op
with the loudest ringleader, portrays himself as saving the oppressed
minorities from The Man, and flies out. The citizens of Midland saw a
complete contrivance on the evening news. Worse, it portrayed Midland as
a hotbed of White Supremacy, which is far from the truth.
I don't trust Joe to do anything except whatever it takes to get
elected.

"Rex B" wrote in message
...
Gunner wrote:
If I wanted to vote for a Democrat, no matter the color of his
fleece..Id vote for Joe Leiberman, rather than McCain

There was a time I'd agree. Then during summer of 2004, there was a minor
situation in Midland TX. Some decision by the city affected a largely
black section of the city in a small way (I've forgotten the issue). There
were a couple of vociferous blacks raising Cain, while for the majority it
was a non-issue. Joe flies in for a contrived photo op with the loudest
ringleader, portrays himself as saving the oppressed minorities from The
Man, and flies out. The citizens of Midland saw a complete contrivance on
the evening news. Worse, it portrayed Midland as a hotbed of White
Supremacy, which is far from the truth.
I don't trust Joe to do anything except whatever it takes to get
elected.

You, Sir, have just described the "Archtypical Politician"!

Were you deluded by his party affiliation?

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...


If there are enough felony indictments, there won't be enough
politicians left around to trouble with!

Seriously, Jim, what's wrong with that?

"Emmo" wrote in message
...
A Republican blogger, Patrick Ruffini, has recently run a straw poll
between those he feels are most likely candidates for the Republican
nomination. He suggests George Allen, Bill Frist, Rudy Giuliani, John
McCain and Mitt Romney as choices, and reports the following on his site:
http://www.patrickruffini.com

Total Votes: 17759
Results:

Allen 6411 (36.1%)
Giuliani: 5422 (30.5%)
Romney: 2491 (14%)
McCain: 1691 (9.5%)
Frist: 1197 (6.7%)


Too bad he didn't list Mickey Mouse!

In article , Gunner says...

So, abortion has been banned,

Stand by for harriet to help overturn Roe vs Wade. It's in the
works.

prayer has been mandated in schools,

Well, you have the ID thing that's going on. They've
done a pretty good job of convincing half the US population
that evolution just plain isn't. (How are you going to
have the US keep pace with the rest of the world in
science and biotechnology if they rely on the biblical
fairy story because Darwin has finally been stamped out
of our public schools, about 80 years after the Scopes
trial?)

all
taxes have been eliminated,

Well, for the rich folks. You and me are getting the shaft
from the tax&spend party that's in power right now. Wait till
they get rid of the deduction for home mortgage interest like
they're planning right now.

and liberals are in concentration camps?

Well we're just gonna depend on you to pull off that coup.

:^)

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
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==================================================

On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:19:12 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, Tim
Killian quickly quoth:

Larry Jaques wrote:
Although I don't agree with a few of his stances (guns, abortion), I'd
much rather have McCain in office now than the Shrub. I can't think of
one single issue on which I agree with the Shrub. He's going to
destabilize our country so thoroughly that anyone could waltz in and
take over. The farce they call Homeland Security is just the tip of
the iceberg. We're less safe today than before 9/11, in part due to
the alienation by the entire rest of the world because of his
policies.

After 230 years, this system is getting long in the tooth. History
teaches that republics average about 250 years before they fall into
tyranny. There is plenty of evidence we're on our way to empire, and the
current President and Congress are simply setting up the tools for a
future ruler who will make much better use of them in a police state.

What I've read in the media and my instincts tell me that you're right
on the money regarding evidence. I'm just not sure the current regime
isn't going to force the police state before they're gone.


The sad part for me is that I'd always imagined Republicans would govern
differently than the corrupt Dems they replaced.

As a recovering republican, I'm ashamed now to have ever been
associated with them. I'm also glad I've never been a democrat.


Hillary? She's a
shoe-in, and IMO she may well be the last elected executive for this
country. I can see her wearing a crown, can't you?

Scary, ain't it? shudder Sheeple, I swear...


----------------------------------------------------------------
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* meaning * Save your Heirloom Photos
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----------------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:34:23 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
"RAM^3" quickly quoth:

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...


If there are enough felony indictments, there won't be enough
politicians left around to trouble with!

Seriously, Jim, what's wrong with that?

The courts are apparently "bought", too, so nearly all of them will
squeak through, that's what.


----------------------------------------------------------------
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* meaning * Save your Heirloom Photos
* "death by music" * http://www.diversify.com
----------------------------------------------------------------

On 20 Oct 2005 08:59:00 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Larry Jaques says...

On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 06:44:45 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Gunner
quickly quoth:

The Fringe Kook Leftwing extremists who have hijacked the DNC, will

The Fringe Kook Rightwing extremists who have hijacked the RNC don't
balance out the others. We need to get away from this totally
corrupted, stinking, festering two-party system SOON.

If there are enough felony indictments, there won't be enough
politicians left around to trouble with!

Jim

Indictments mean ****. A prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich.

Its the convictions that mean anything. An indictment is simply an
accusation. No more, no less.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On 20 Oct 2005 14:33:20 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

So, abortion has been banned,

Stand by for harriet to help overturn Roe vs Wade. It's in the
works.

You claimed it already happened.

prayer has been mandated in schools,

Well, you have the ID thing that's going on. They've
done a pretty good job of convincing half the US population
that evolution just plain isn't. (How are you going to
have the US keep pace with the rest of the world in
science and biotechnology if they rely on the biblical
fairy story because Darwin has finally been stamped out
of our public schools, about 80 years after the Scopes
trial?)

Half the population believed in creation long before FDR first packed
the SCOTUS. Its a tenent of Christianity.

all
taxes have been eliminated,

Well, for the rich folks. You and me are getting the shaft
from the tax&spend party that's in power right now. Wait till
they get rid of the deduction for home mortgage interest like
they're planning right now.

So the top 5% of the income earners no longer pay 50% of the taxes?
Odd...when did they change that? Please provide the cites.

and liberals are in concentration camps?

Well we're just gonna depend on you to pull off that coup.

So far..you are batting zero. You might want to stick to something you
actually know something about.

Gunner


:^)

Jim

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:37:12 -0500, "RAM^3"
wrote:

"Emmo" wrote in message
.. .
A Republican blogger, Patrick Ruffini, has recently run a straw poll
between those he feels are most likely candidates for the Republican
nomination. He suggests George Allen, Bill Frist, Rudy Giuliani, John
McCain and Mitt Romney as choices, and reports the following on his site:
http://www.patrickruffini.com

Total Votes: 17759
Results:

Allen 6411 (36.1%)
Giuliani: 5422 (30.5%)
Romney: 2491 (14%)
McCain: 1691 (9.5%)
Frist: 1197 (6.7%)


Too bad he didn't list Mickey Mouse!

Kerry is a Dem..the poll was for Republicans
Actually..Id say he is much closer to Goofy, than Mickey.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

In article , Gunner says...

So, abortion has been banned,

Stand by for harriet to help overturn Roe vs Wade. It's in the
works.

You claimed it already happened.

Me? Where? No, Roe v Wade is still the law of the land.
So far the rightwingers have been smart enough to realize
that it's a centralizing compromise. And that they can get
far more votes from the fundies by beating the "we're gonna
try to overturn it" drum than if that decision actually
*were* reversed.

However now with Rove and Cheney in trouble, the tiller's
been passed over to Bush himself and it sorta seems like
he might just be dumb enough to try and kill their goose
that lays the golden vote eggs. His current pick for USSC
justice is the only evidence I would need to present here.

Jim


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==================================================
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==================================================

jim rozen writes:

In article , Gunner says...

However now with Rove and Cheney in trouble, the tiller's
been passed over to Bush himself and it sorta seems like
he might just be dumb enough to try and kill their goose
that lays the golden vote eggs. His current pick for USSC
justice is the only evidence I would need to present here.


Jim, I think a simpler interpretation is that Dubya is an idiot and is
so obsessed with people's personal loyalty to him that he doesn't care
about competence, qualifications or suitability.

Not that she isn't a threat to RvW though. I find it humorous that the
GOP- the party that so prides itself on trying to limit govt's
interference in people lives would choose to get the federal gov't
involved in a woman's reproductive choices- short of making unauthorized
pregnancy a criminal offense its hard to get more involved than that.

Gregm

Greg Menke wrote:
jim rozen writes:


In article , Gunner says...

However now with Rove and Cheney in trouble, the tiller's
been passed over to Bush himself and it sorta seems like
he might just be dumb enough to try and kill their goose
that lays the golden vote eggs. His current pick for USSC
justice is the only evidence I would need to present here.



Jim, I think a simpler interpretation is that Dubya is an idiot and is
so obsessed with people's personal loyalty to him that he doesn't care
about competence, qualifications or suitability.

Not that she isn't a threat to RvW though. I find it humorous that the
GOP- the party that so prides itself on trying to limit govt's
interference in people lives would choose to get the federal gov't
involved in a woman's reproductive choices- short of making unauthorized
pregnancy a criminal offense its hard to get more involved than that.

Gregm

Good point as the sword cuts both ways. When the federal government
intrudes into reproductive decisions pro or con, it grants itself power
over the very "right to choose" that everyone spouts about in this
debate. Political winds can blow both ways, and the decisions and
precedents we approve of now may look very different in a future
administration. IMO giving the federal government more power over our
lives is not the answer in most situations. The abortion controversy
should be decided at the state level (as it was before RvW) where voters
can have direct inputs to the pols involved.

As for the current administration, W had better be careful. If the Dems
manage to pick off Delay and Cheney, and then take back the Congress in
'06, I see a revenge impeachment proceeding starting up in early '07.
The circus that follows and hard economic times would open the door to a
charismatic "leader" who will fix the problems...

"If I could have control of Germany for ten years, you wouldn't be able
to recognize it." - A. Hitler

In article , Greg Menke says...

Jim, I think a simpler interpretation is that Dubya is an idiot and is
so obsessed with people's personal loyalty to him that he doesn't care
about competence, qualifications or suitability.

Not that she isn't a threat to RvW though. I find it humorous that the
GOP- the party that so prides itself on trying to limit govt's
interference in people lives would choose to get the federal gov't
involved in a woman's reproductive choices- short of making unauthorized
pregnancy a criminal offense its hard to get more involved than that.

Seriously though, the republican record on getting Roe vs Wade
overturned is pretty dismal. They just like using the issue as a
stick to beat the fundies with, to drive them to vote. The fact that
the shrubbie is seriously maneuvering her into the open justice slot
has serious implications: 1) it's pretty sure she'd vote to overturn,
2) that's bad for the republican party in the long run, 3) he doesn't
care or doesn't understand what's going on.

The white house is starting to look more and more like the folks there
realize their run is almost over, so why not just goof around for
the rest of their term, however long that might be. The serious folks
have either left after being shat on, or left one step ahead of
an indictment. There's a serious power vaccuum.

Jim


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==================================================
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==================================================

jim rozen wrote:
In article , Greg Menke says...


Jim, I think a simpler interpretation is that Dubya is an idiot and is
so obsessed with people's personal loyalty to him that he doesn't care
about competence, qualifications or suitability.

Not that she isn't a threat to RvW though. I find it humorous that the
GOP- the party that so prides itself on trying to limit govt's
interference in people lives would choose to get the federal gov't
involved in a woman's reproductive choices- short of making unauthorized
pregnancy a criminal offense its hard to get more involved than that.


Seriously though, the republican record on getting Roe vs Wade
overturned is pretty dismal. They just like using the issue as a
stick to beat the fundies with, to drive them to vote. The fact that
the shrubbie is seriously maneuvering her into the open justice slot
has serious implications: 1) it's pretty sure she'd vote to overturn,
2) that's bad for the republican party in the long run, 3) he doesn't
care or doesn't understand what's going on.

Or maybe GWB is doing just what he said he'd do: Offer up a nominee who
will interpret the Constitution as it is written. Sounds to me like
he's doing that, and is willing to let the chips fall where they may.


The white house is starting to look more and more like the folks there
realize their run is almost over, so why not just goof around for
the rest of their term, however long that might be. The serious folks
have either left after being shat on, or left one step ahead of
an indictment. There's a serious power vaccuum.

Things always get a little loose in the 2nd term, personel shuffling is
normal. Most recent example of that is the Clinton admin in 1999-2000.
This too shall pass.

jim rozen writes:

In article , Greg Menke says...

Seriously though, the republican record on getting Roe vs Wade
overturned is pretty dismal. They just like using the issue as a
stick to beat the fundies with, to drive them to vote. The fact that
the shrubbie is seriously maneuvering her into the open justice slot
has serious implications: 1) it's pretty sure she'd vote to overturn,
2) that's bad for the republican party in the long run, 3) he doesn't
care or doesn't understand what's going on.

I'd vote for #3- its been amateur hour in the White House for since
2000... Not amateur in the sense of being clueless (except maybe for
Dubya), but in the sense of substituting ideology for competence. Writ
large now in the substitution of religious experience for qualifications
in one of the most important jobs in the country.

I wouldn't mind if Dubya had appointed another candidate like Roberts-
I might fundamentally disagree with him, but at least he's competent and
I am confident he'll try to do a good job- but Meyers is just a waste of
everyone's time.


The white house is starting to look more and more like the folks there
realize their run is almost over, so why not just goof around for
the rest of their term, however long that might be. The serious folks
have either left after being shat on, or left one step ahead of
an indictment. There's a serious power vaccuum.

I don't think its as much a vacuum as a solid pile of yes-men. Anyone
who disagrees gets shunted out so a highly myopic & bizarre perspective
is perpetuated.

But I'm still waiting for Dubya to fire the people who leaked Plame's
name. They've admitted doing it at this point, so where's the
sacrificial lamb? The GOP wanted blood for chump change adultery, how
come they don't want it now when a CIA agent's cover is blown with who
knows what consequences?

Gregm

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:52:23 -0500, Rex B
wrote:

jim rozen wrote:
In article , Greg Menke says...


Jim, I think a simpler interpretation is that Dubya is an idiot and is
so obsessed with people's personal loyalty to him that he doesn't care
about competence, qualifications or suitability.

Not that she isn't a threat to RvW though. I find it humorous that the
GOP- the party that so prides itself on trying to limit govt's
interference in people lives would choose to get the federal gov't
involved in a woman's reproductive choices- short of making unauthorized
pregnancy a criminal offense its hard to get more involved than that.


Seriously though, the republican record on getting Roe vs Wade
overturned is pretty dismal. They just like using the issue as a
stick to beat the fundies with, to drive them to vote. The fact that
the shrubbie is seriously maneuvering her into the open justice slot
has serious implications: 1) it's pretty sure she'd vote to overturn,
2) that's bad for the republican party in the long run, 3) he doesn't
care or doesn't understand what's going on.

Or maybe GWB is doing just what he said he'd do: Offer up a nominee who
will interpret the Constitution as it is written. Sounds to me like
he's doing that, and is willing to let the chips fall where they may.


The white house is starting to look more and more like the folks there
realize their run is almost over, so why not just goof around for
the rest of their term, however long that might be. The serious folks
have either left after being shat on, or left one step ahead of
an indictment. There's a serious power vaccuum.

Things always get a little loose in the 2nd term, personel shuffling is
normal. Most recent example of that is the Clinton admin in 1999-2000.
This too shall pass.


Good post

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On 21 Oct 2005 13:07:30 -0400, Greg Menke
wrote:


But I'm still waiting for Dubya to fire the people who leaked Plame's
name. They've admitted doing it at this point, so where's the
sacrificial lamb?

So...who leaked the name? Please provide cites. Im sure the Committee
investigating it would love to know.

The GOP wanted blood for chump change adultery, how
come they don't want it now when a CIA agent's cover is blown with who
knows what consequences?

Since when is Perjury adultery? Did the Arkansas Bar pull Klintons
law license for dipping his wick?

Gregm

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Greg Menke wrote:

But I'm still waiting for Dubya to fire the people who leaked Plame's
name. They've admitted doing it at this point, so where's the
sacrificial lamb? The GOP wanted blood for chump change adultery, how
come they don't want it now when a CIA agent's cover is blown with who
knows what consequences?

What consequences? She was working a desk job a CIA HQ. Anyone watching
the gate could figure out who she worked for. While she may have been
undercover at an earlier point in her career, she wasn't at this point.
If there's ever a trial this is sure to come up.

I find it humorous that the
GOP- the party that so prides itself on trying to limit govt's
interference in people lives would choose to get the federal gov't
involved in a woman's reproductive choices- short of making unauthorized
pregnancy a criminal offense its hard to get more involved than that.

Gregm

The current Republicans are not real Republicans. Here are two quotes from
Wall Street Journal editorials this week:

"There was a time, in 1995 and 1996, when the freshly minted Republican
majority really did try to restrain spending and kill unnecessary programs.
But over the years, the GOP has lost its way, albeit with the help of a
White House willing to let the Members run wild."

"...George W. Bush has not governed as a conservative (amnesty for illegal
immigrants, reckless spending that will ultimately undo his tax cuts,
signing a campaign finance bill even while maintaining its
unconstitutionality). This George Bush, like his father, is showing himself
to be indifferent, if not actively hostile, to conservative values."

Today's editorial calls Miers' nomination "...a political blunder of the
first order." You must not make the mistake of believing that Bush
represents conservatives, because he doesn't...

Rex B wrote:

jim rozen wrote:

In article , Greg Menke says...


Jim, I think a simpler interpretation is that Dubya is an idiot and is
so obsessed with people's personal loyalty to him that he doesn't care
about competence, qualifications or suitability.

Not that she isn't a threat to RvW though. I find it humorous that the
GOP- the party that so prides itself on trying to limit govt's
interference in people lives would choose to get the federal gov't
involved in a woman's reproductive choices- short of making unauthorized
pregnancy a criminal offense its hard to get more involved than that.



Seriously though, the republican record on getting Roe vs Wade
overturned is pretty dismal. They just like using the issue as a
stick to beat the fundies with, to drive them to vote. The fact that
the shrubbie is seriously maneuvering her into the open justice slot
has serious implications: 1) it's pretty sure she'd vote to overturn,
2) that's bad for the republican party in the long run, 3) he doesn't
care or doesn't understand what's going on.


Or maybe GWB is doing just what he said he'd do: Offer up a nominee
who will interpret the Constitution as it is written. Sounds to me
like he's doing that, and is willing to let the chips fall where they may.


Ahhhh..there B the rub. In many ways it's a bit like saying "Because
carbide tooling isn't mentioned in this 1905 text our shop works from,
we can't modify feeds and speeds to use it: Gotta stick with the listed
feeds and speeds because the book says those are the rules." Yes,
consitiutional issues are more complex (and simpler, depending on how
you look at it) but taking a square peg from the late 1700's and making
it fit today's round hole REQUIRES the ability to go beyond HOW it was
written and look at INTENT.

Making things even harder, If you put any 2 people in a room, they will
see the intent/writing in 2 different ways. Using the Bible as an
example, if it was actually possible to "interpret...as written" per the
comment above, there would only be one Christian religion, wouldn't there.

What people REALLY mean when they use the term "Interpret the
Constitution as written" is "Interpret the Constitution as *I* think it
was written." An "activist judge" as so many complain about simply
means that their interpretion doesn't fit *[group]your* interpretation.
The right or left are perfectly happy with "activist" judges when the
activisism falls their way. Those cases tend to be called "Interpreting
the Constution as written" by the winning side.

The intent of ALL of the constitution is to preserve individual
liberties. That's where any judge should start. Either end of the
left/right scale has different priorities of liberties to be preserved
and both ends spend more time trying to LIMIT freedom of things they
find offensive (gay rights, abortion on the right, guns and property
rights on the left for example) than they spend expanding freedom. GWB
didn't choose his nominee because they will preserve freedom: He chose
because they will forward an agenda limiting freedoms he finds
offensive. The left does the same.


Koz




The white house is starting to look more and more like the folks there
realize their run is almost over, so why not just goof around for
the rest of their term, however long that might be. The serious folks
have either left after being shat on, or left one step ahead of an
indictment. There's a serious power vaccuum.


Things always get a little loose in the 2nd term, personel shuffling
is normal. Most recent example of that is the Clinton admin in
1999-2000. This too shall pass.

In article , Tim Killian says...

... IMO giving the federal government more power over our
lives is not the answer in most situations.

Indeed.

The abortion controversy
should be decided at the state level (as it was before RvW) where voters
can have direct inputs to the pols involved.

But that's what RvW does - it allows individual states to make
some laws about the issue.

Trouble is, the current adminstration got where it is, in part,
by dangling the "overturn" bait to the fundies. Now we have
somebody there who's dumb enough to try to follow through on
it.

Jim


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In article , Rex B says...

Things always get a little loose in the 2nd term, personel shuffling is
normal.

Shuffling, yes - but indictments?

I'm waiting for the Agnew effect.

Jim


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In article , Emmo says...

Today's editorial calls Miers' nomination "...a political blunder of the
first order." You must not make the mistake of believing that Bush
represents conservatives, because he doesn't...

As I said, Cheney and Rove are on the outs. We will be seeing
more of those blunders.

Jim


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In article , Rex B says...

What consequences? She was working a desk job a CIA HQ.

Then why was all of Tenent's testimony on the issue redacted
from the record? There's more going on here than is visible
from the surface.

Jim


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Koz wrote:


Rex B wrote:
Or maybe GWB is doing just what he said he'd do: Offer up a nominee
who will interpret the Constitution as it is written. Sounds to me
like he's doing that, and is willing to let the chips fall where they
may.



Ahhhh..there B the rub. In many ways it's a bit like saying "Because
carbide tooling isn't mentioned in this 1905 text our shop works from,
we can't modify feeds and speeds to use it: Gotta stick with the listed
feeds and speeds because the book says those are the rules." Yes,
consitiutional issues are more complex (and simpler, depending on how
you look at it) but taking a square peg from the late 1700's and making
it fit today's round hole REQUIRES the ability to go beyond HOW it was
written and look at INTENT.

It's more like "Because carbide tooling isn't mentioned in this 1905
text our shop works from, the responsibility for determining what is
proper falls to the shop manager to determine suitable speeds and feeds
for his particular application"

The Constitution was written in fairly broad language so it would last.
There is an additional large body of record of the intent of the people
who wrote and signed it, explaining what it meant.
Sure, there are things that are not covered by the Constitution, and
that's why the provision for amendments. Abortion is not covered by the
Constitution. If the voters decide they want abortion addressed at the
national level, then an amendment is the proper way to do it, not some
distorted interpretation of the Constitution. Currently, RVW has no
basis in the Constitution.
And if it's not covered in the Constitution or it's amendments, then
it is, by default, determined by the states individually. If the states
do not address it, then it becomes an individual decision.

Making things even harder, If you put any 2 people in a room, they will
see the intent/writing in 2 different ways. Using the Bible as an
example, if it was actually possible to "interpret...as written" per the
comment above, there would only be one Christian religion, wouldn't there.

Apples and oranges. The bible was written in Aramaic and HEbrew and
other languages. Few modern laymen are capable of reading the original
texts, much less making an informed interpretation.

What people REALLY mean when they use the term "Interpret the
Constitution as written" is "Interpret the Constitution as *I* think it
was written." An "activist judge" as so many complain about simply
means that their interpretion doesn't fit *[group]your* interpretation.
The right or left are perfectly happy with "activist" judges when the
activisism falls their way. Those cases tend to be called "Interpreting
the Constution as written" by the winning side.

I disagree. Anyone who understands basic reading comprehension and
logical thought can make an objective interpretation of the Constitution
as written. Can you give me an example of an "active interpretation"
that resulted in a more conservative ruling than the founding fathers
would have intended?


The intent of ALL of the constitution is to preserve individual
liberties. That's where any judge should start.

Every judge swears to uphold the constitution and the law of the land,
not "preserve individual liberties". If the law is written correctly -
as is the Constitution - then strict adherence will result in
preservation of individual liberty. It will also result in a refusal to
rule on things not covered by those laws, and that is also as it should be.

Rex

In article , Greg Menke says...

But I'm still waiting for Dubya to fire the people who leaked Plame's
name. They've admitted doing it at this point, so where's the
sacrificial lamb?

He does not fire folks. Consider 'Brownie.'

But he sure is distancing himself
from Rove. And how do you fire the VP?

Jim


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jim rozen wrote:
In article , Rex B says...


Things always get a little loose in the 2nd term, personel shuffling is
normal.


Shuffling, yes - but indictments?

Who in the cabinet has been indicted?

jim rozen writes:

In article , Greg Menke says...

But I'm still waiting for Dubya to fire the people who leaked Plame's
name. They've admitted doing it at this point, so where's the
sacrificial lamb?

He does not fire folks. Consider 'Brownie.'

But he sure is distancing himself
from Rove. And how do you fire the VP?

The VP is safe as he's the brains of the outfit, but I'm suprised some
staffer hasn't been selected as the sacrifice. OTOH, its all the same
with this administration, they will admit nothing and do nothing and say
nothing until they are forced to, and then they will to the absolute
minimum possible to give the impression of being responsive.

Gregm

In article , Rex B says...

Who in the cabinet has been indicted?

Stand by for a week or so. It's beginning to
look a lot like Fitzmas....

Jim


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Let the record show that Gunner wrote back on
Thu, 20 Oct 2005 06:31:56 GMT in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:14:19 -0400, wrote:

Rex B wrote:

Maybe McCain ought to switch to Libertarian.
He'd get my vote, and might bring some other Libertarian candidates into
Congress on his coattails.

McCain is into gun control. Hardly a Libertarian philosophy afaikt.
McCain is a moderate Republican which automatically makes him more
palatable to Democrats much like Zell Miller, a conservative Democrat,
is palatable to Republicans.

I think Mr. McCain is an honorable man who has served his country
well. It doesn't mean I'm going to vote for him though.

I'll respect Cmdr McCain for what he did, but Senator McCain - now
there's a whack job.


Wes

Hear hear

I said similar of Senator Inouye of Hawaii. Decorated war heroes are
entitled to speak their mind, and believe anything they want. Doesn't mean
they are automatically going to get my vote. My respect for their right to
espouse what ever they please, but, an opposition politician is an
opposition politician.

tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them, Selecting a new Them

On 21 Oct 2005 18:52:15 -0400, Greg Menke
wrote:

jim rozen writes:

In article , Greg Menke says...

But I'm still waiting for Dubya to fire the people who leaked Plame's
name. They've admitted doing it at this point, so where's the
sacrificial lamb?

He does not fire folks. Consider 'Brownie.'

But he sure is distancing himself
from Rove. And how do you fire the VP?

The VP is safe as he's the brains of the outfit, but I'm suprised some
staffer hasn't been selected as the sacrifice. OTOH, its all the same
with this administration, they will admit nothing and do nothing and say
nothing until they are forced to, and then they will to the absolute
minimum possible to give the impression of being responsive.

Gregm

How did the Clinton Administration get into the thread? Btw...what
caliber was the hole in Ron Browns head again? .45 wasnt it?
A different bullet then the one that killed Vince Foster.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

In article , Gunner says...

Indictments mean ****. A prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich.

You have the quote wrong. "A good prosecutor can get a grand jury
to indict a ham sandwich" is how it goes.

Its the convictions that mean anything. An indictment is simply an
accusation.

Ah, that's not what your republican buddy said, Gunner.
Don't you trust the right wing jurisprudence?

No, he's guilty because he was charged. Says 'old Mr. Ed.

LOL.

Jim


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"jim rozen" wrote in message
...

Ah, that's not what your republican buddy said, Gunner.
Don't you trust the right wing jurisprudence?

No, he's guilty because he was charged. Says 'old Mr. Ed.

LOL.

Jim

Spoken like a True Socialist!

RAM^3 wrote:
"jim rozen" wrote in message
...

Ah, that's not what your republican buddy said, Gunner.
Don't you trust the right wing jurisprudence?

No, he's guilty because he was charged. Says 'old Mr. Ed.

LOL.

Jim


Spoken like a True Socialist!

You're calling Ed Meese a "True Socialist"?

In article , Pete Bergstrom says...

Spoken like a True Socialist!

You're calling Ed Meese a "True Socialist"?

No, he's calling *me* that.

Because I'm applying a republican's stupid comment to
another republican, who deserves it.

Where can I get one of those T-shirts with Delay's
mug shots on it?

Jim


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"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Pete Bergstrom says...

Spoken like a True Socialist!

You're calling Ed Meese a "True Socialist"?

No, he's calling *me* that.

Because I'm applying a republican's stupid comment to
another republican, who deserves it.

Where can I get one of those T-shirts with Delay's
mug shots on it?

Jim

Whassamatta - ya los' ya URL?

It's on one of your "favorite" web sites:

http://www.cafepress.com/thewhitehouse/866007