MSC has a 7/8 end mill 1/2 inch shank #01727486
for $11.92 in my catolog [1999] but you will have to grind
the ends flat. And it will probably cut oversize. If size is important Msc
has a 3/4 end mill with a 1/2 inch shank
and if you grind the end flat and use it as a first cut the
7/8 will cut closer to size. Jim

"Marty" wrote in message
...
I have to drill a number of flat bottom holes, 7/8" diameter and 1/10"
(.1") deep in some 2/10" (.2") thick aluminum. Is there a source for
flat bottom drill bits of this size that will fit in the 1/2" drill
chuck that's on my drill press? If there are no bits of this size with
a turned down 1/2" shank, can an adapter be purchased to go from the
7/8" bit to the 1/2" chuck? Thanks for any help. Marty

I have to drill a number of flat bottom holes, 7/8" diameter and 1/10"
(.1") deep in some 2/10" (.2") thick aluminum. Is there a source for
flat bottom drill bits of this size that will fit in the 1/2" drill
chuck that's on my drill press? If there are no bits of this size with
a turned down 1/2" shank, can an adapter be purchased to go from the
7/8" bit to the 1/2" chuck? Thanks for any help. Marty

In article , madw5
@verizon.net says...
I have to drill a number of flat bottom holes, 7/8" diameter and 1/10"
(.1") deep in some 2/10" (.2") thick aluminum. Is there a source for
flat bottom drill bits of this size that will fit in the 1/2" drill
chuck that's on my drill press? If there are no bits of this size with
a turned down 1/2" shank, can an adapter be purchased to go from the
7/8" bit to the 1/2" chuck? Thanks for any help. Marty


If you can live with a small (say 1/4" dia) deeper hole in
the middle of the 7/8 hole, you would probably have better
luck with a piloted counterbore.

_______________________
| |
|________|
|__|
\ /
\/

_______________________

It's not too difficult to grind a flat bottom drill, but
unless you have a very rigid machine to run it, it's going
to push the work all over the place. An end mill that large
won't be much better.

Ned Simmons

Marty wrote:

I have to drill a number of flat bottom holes, 7/8" diameter and 1/10"
(.1") deep in some 2/10" (.2") thick aluminum. Is there a source for
flat bottom drill bits of this size that will fit in the 1/2" drill
chuck that's on my drill press? If there are no bits of this size with
a turned down 1/2" shank, can an adapter be purchased to go from the
7/8" bit to the 1/2" chuck? Thanks for any help. Marty

In a drill press? You're dreaming. You *could* make it happen, but the
hassle to do it would be ridiculous. Mill.

michael

On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 22:11:32 -0700, michael
wrote:

Marty wrote:

I have to drill a number of flat bottom holes, 7/8" diameter and 1/10"
(.1") deep in some 2/10" (.2") thick aluminum. Is there a source for
flat bottom drill bits of this size that will fit in the 1/2" drill
chuck that's on my drill press? If there are no bits of this size with
a turned down 1/2" shank, can an adapter be purchased to go from the
7/8" bit to the 1/2" chuck? Thanks for any help. Marty

In a drill press? You're dreaming. You *could* make it happen, but the
hassle to do it would be ridiculous. Mill.

michael

Bottom cutting plunge endmill, followed up by the correct drill bit
for the screw shank hole. Or a ready made counter sink for the screw.
Aint no other way to do it without it walking all over hell and gone.

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

I have to drill a number of flat bottom holes, 7/8" diameter and 1/10"
(.1") deep in some 2/10" (.2") thick aluminum. Is there a source for
flat bottom drill bits of this size that will fit in the 1/2" drill
chuck that's on my drill press? If there are no bits of this size with
a turned down 1/2" shank, can an adapter be purchased to go from the
7/8" bit to the 1/2" chuck? Thanks for any help. Marty




First, drill a 7/8" hole THROUGH a piece of steel plate, say 1/2" thick. Clamp
the plate on top of the aluminum piece. Drill with an end mill or a flat
bottom drill bit.

John Martin

From: (JMartin957)

I have to drill a number of flat bottom holes, 7/8" diameter and 1/10"
(.1") deep in some 2/10" (.2") thick aluminum. Is there a source for
flat bottom drill bits of this size that will fit in the 1/2" drill
chuck that's on my drill press?

First, drill a 7/8" hole THROUGH a piece of steel plate, say 1/2" thick.
Clamp
the plate on top of the aluminum piece. Drill with an end mill or a flat
bottom drill bit.


I like this. It's a drill jig. But the OP implies all he has is a drill press.

I'd take a 7/8 Forstner bit, and change to Mg plate instead of Al if I could
get away with it. Then I'd use the method I developed the other day for reaming
an 11/16 hole in mild steel to 3/4 with a shell reamer.

Apply a large disc to your drill press drive pulley. Fit the belt for maximum
speed reduction. If you want, make the disc the same size as a PSA sandpaper
you use. It can serve as a disc grinder. Glue the disc to the pulley with
silicone, make sure it's on center, let it dry, and trim to center and smooth
the edge while it's running, with a block plane and a file, then some
sandpaper. The larg mass of the block plane will tend to catch the high sector
and shave it down. Take very light cuts.

Then, modify your Forstner to have less than a 1/10 inch pip, preferable no
more than 1/10 inch wide, as well.

Lay out your

number of flat bottom holes,

with center marks, and find the center mark with the pip. CLAMP THE WORK.
Remove the up-spring from your drill press's feed handle, with gloves on, and
put it in backwards, so it automatically feeds down, as hard as possible.

Then you can rotate the disc by hand and if the spring pressure is sufficient,
the Forstner will cut.

The proper setup for doing this, if a mill is available, is:

cutting speed 300 fpm
diameter 7/8 inch
cs * 4 / d = less than 1300 rpm
cutting time: Let's say 3 sec
depth: 1/10 inch
cu inch: 0.72 / min
HP: about 1 HP milling machine

The reason it's not working on your drill press is there's no way it's going to
deliver 1HP at 1300 rpm. Also, at that speed and feed, a standard drill chuck
will slip. At the hand speed, you can arrange things so it will not slip.

So you can save $10,000 on a new mill by doing these holes by hand, or give it
to a machine shop and it'll be done in 5 sec + move time, times how many holes,
billed at about $45 (at least ) per hour. If you're lucky you can be in and out
in a quarter hour for $50 minimum. The reason they charge so much is that when
the machine sits over two shifts at night, not being used, the interest on
their loan really piles up, because interest is 24/7.

It's much easier with a disc, and preferable a finger hole in the disc, because
the drive pulley is not made to be rotated by hand. Make everything on the disc
smooth, it must never hurt someone. If needed, make up a guard for it, or
remove it when done.

The problem I was faced with about a half a week ago was that while the HP and
speed were OK, the stiffness was inadequate. As soon as I hear the chamfer on
the reamer start to chatter and groan, I quit for the day. That **** scares me.
With a fresh start later, I was able to start the chamfer and even proceed into
the material a bit, then power up and ream right through it. Getting a 7/8 bit
started in Al with a drill press is similar. You might get it started by hand,
but the depth is so shallow, why not do the whole thing while staying in the
safety zone.

CLAMP THE WORK.

UNPLUG THE MACHINE.

HAVE A NICE DAY.



Yours,

Doug Goncz (at aol dot com)
Replikon Research

Replikon Research researches replikons, which are self-reproducing
configurations of non-living matter in environments that support replication,
analogous to organisms living in ecologies.

"Marty" wrote in message ...
I have to drill a number of flat bottom holes, 7/8" diameter and 1/10"
(.1") deep in some 2/10" (.2") thick aluminum. Is there a source for
flat bottom drill bits of this size that will fit in the 1/2" drill
chuck that's on my drill press? If there are no bits of this size with
a turned down 1/2" shank, can an adapter be purchased to go from the
7/8" bit to the 1/2" chuck? Thanks for any help. Marty

Hi Marty,

Easy one if you can sharpen a drill by hand. It's called Zero Angle
sharpening. I'll put the instructions and a couple of drawings on
www.thepiers.net within the next couple of days.

With Zero angle sharpening I,ve drilled hundreds of 1/2" holes in 26
gauge material, no burrs. Your only problem may be getting the 7/8"
drill with a turned down shank check out
http://www.precisiontwistdrill.com/t...p/techhelp.asp.

Glenn

You want a slot drill, not an end mill. Slot drills look like endmills
but have one or two teeth that extend to the centre. They're used for
cutting keyways in shafts, or slots in flat stock; they'll drill
through vertically then can be run sideways like an endmill.
But it will take a really good, heavy drill press to keep it from
walking around. Better to use it to clean out and bottom a
previously-drilled, slightly undersize hole.
Dan

On 9 Sep 2003 06:56:39 -0700, (Dan Thomas)
wrote:

You want a slot drill, not an end mill. Slot drills look like endmills
but have one or two teeth that extend to the centre. They're used for
cutting keyways in shafts, or slots in flat stock; they'll drill
through vertically then can be run sideways like an endmill.
But it will take a really good, heavy drill press to keep it from
walking around. Better to use it to clean out and bottom a
previously-drilled, slightly undersize hole.
Dan
If this hasn't been suggested then you could try the following: Grind
a drill flat on the end that's the same size as the hole. This can be
done by grinding, by hand, the end of the drill square. Then, also by
hand, grind each flute so there is relief back from the cutting edge,
Use a wheel with sharp corners. When close to the edge and center
finish with a hand stone. Drill hole with regular drill and remove
point with flat ground drill. I do this from time to time. I am always
grabbing the flat bottom drill out of the drawer even though there's a
bunch of regular drill in there.
ERS

Do a quick search for reduced shank drills at the top of the page.
http://www.mscdirect.com/

Glenn Cramond wrote:

"Marty" wrote in message ...
I have to drill a number of flat bottom holes, 7/8" diameter and 1/10"
(.1") deep in some 2/10" (.2") thick aluminum. Is there a source for
flat bottom drill bits of this size that will fit in the 1/2" drill
chuck that's on my drill press? If there are no bits of this size with
a turned down 1/2" shank, can an adapter be purchased to go from the
7/8" bit to the 1/2" chuck? Thanks for any help. Marty

Hi Marty,

Easy one if you can sharpen a drill by hand. It's called Zero Angle
sharpening. I'll put the instructions and a couple of drawings on
www.thepiers.net within the next couple of days.

With Zero angle sharpening I,ve drilled hundreds of 1/2" holes in 26
gauge material, no burrs. Your only problem may be getting the 7/8"
drill with a turned down shank check out
http://www.precisiontwistdrill.com/t...p/techhelp.asp.

Glenn

Marty
Drill your 7/8 hole with a regular drill to the proper depth. Then
uses a reground 7/8 drill with flat bottom. It will need a relief gash
in the center to enable it to cut properly and I would put a small
radius on the corners of the drill to prevent chipping.
at this url the second pic from the bopttom shows a bottom drill
http://www.rushmachinery.com/prod01.htm

Marty wrote:
I have to drill a number of flat bottom holes, 7/8" diameter and 1/10"
(.1") deep in some 2/10" (.2") thick aluminum. Is there a source for
flat bottom drill bits of this size that will fit in the 1/2" drill
chuck that's on my drill press? If there are no bits of this size with
a turned down 1/2" shank, can an adapter be purchased to go from the
7/8" bit to the 1/2" chuck? Thanks for any help. Marty


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

James P Crombie

Summerside Machinist
Prince Edward Island Amateur Astronomer
Canada 3D Designer

E-mail
Astronomy webpage http://www.jamescrombie.com
Rhinoceros 3D webpage http://www.jamescrombie.com/rhino/
Mirror Grinder page http://www.jamescrombie.com/pics/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

"James P Crombie" wrote in message
...
Marty
Drill your 7/8 hole with a regular drill to the proper depth. Then
uses a reground 7/8 drill with flat bottom. It will need a relief gash
in the center to enable it to cut properly and I would put a small
radius on the corners of the drill to prevent chipping.


Sadly, while your suggestion is a good one, one that I have used for the
bulk of my years in the shop, it won't work in his case. The size of the
hole versus the depth won't allow for it.

Harold

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:
snip

You are losing me here. Assuming he can get a two flute end mill with a

1/2

shank and run his drill at the proper RPM why would this setup walk all

over

the place on a .1 deep hole? A new end mill will have its edges

concentric

with the center so this should not cause too much grief IMO.

--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.


While I value your opinion, my over 40 years in commercial machine shops
tell me that when you plunge cut with end mills, one side (or flute)
generally drives. It can be caused by chip loading, a slightly duller
side, a small defect in the cutting edge, the reasons are endless. My
suggestion to make a tool that is circularly ground (no peripheral relief)
helps avoid the problem. Counterbores are made thus, and for that reason.

Working with large tools in a drill press that has little to NO rigidity is
a recipe for disaster. I am not of the opinion that it won't work, but I
am of the opinion that it works only for those that don't know the
difference between a milling machine and a drill press. Once you're used
a mill, even one as spindly as a Bridgeport (I can say that, I own one),
you'll fully understand what I mean. When you plunge cut with an end mill
of the needed size, especially when it's held in a drill chuck, which is NOT
intended to hold heat treated items like end mill shanks, the chances of the
hole coming out even remotely the right size is almost non-existent. That's
true even in a milling machine, especially a spindly one.

In a drill press, runout of the chuck holding the end mill alone would
likely be trouble. The spindle will allow the end mill to wallow about,
and with the side relief of the end mill as it is, it's likely to hog in and
create lots more problems than one can settle. Instead of piloting on the
hole as it is generated, the end mill simply cuts away anything that gets in
the way when it wallows about. Personally, I wouldn't use a drill press
for any kind of milling. Even when they make the cut, the degree of
precision sucks, and the finish is likely to be something for which you'd be
constantly making apologies.

Hope this helps you understand my position.

Harold

Hi Folks,

Gotta agree with Harold here! I had the mill set up for some other
tasks and needed a quick and dirty counterbore a few nights ago. Had
the work clamped well on the table, used a nice US made 3/8 inch 2 flute
endmill - fresh out of the tube. Around 500 RPM, kerosene, and 6061
with a clearance hole already in it. Lined it up with the drill bit
used to poke the clearance hole, clamped down, verified no deflection of
the bit going in and out of the hole. In short, did everything as right
as I could for a half assed work around. I just couldn't control the
feed finely enough with the drill press spider. Grabbed, wandered a
bit, chatter out the wazoo... In short, a mess. Now my drill is just a
JET 17 incher, not an industrial grade machine. I tried playing the
mill on this drill press game years ago, accepted that it doesn't work
well, and saved up for a mill drill. Still not as heavy a machine as
I'd like, but the kids want to eat and there's only so much room and
money available.

Finished the previous work on the mill, then did the job using the same
endmill on the mill and knocked out the counterbore just fine, so at
least I didn't booger a fresh end mill. A piloted counterbore would do
just fine for this application in a drill press, but as I understand it
the desired result is really a round pocket, not a counterbore.

I really should finish up the counterbores I roughed out a while back
for these sorts of tasks, just haven't gotten to it. Don't counterbore
often enough to justify the cost of US made commercial ones, and avoid
PRC stuff whenever I can.

Cheers,
Stan

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

While I value your opinion, my over 40 years in commercial machine shops
tell me that when you plunge cut with end mills, one side (or flute)
generally drives. It can be caused by chip loading, a slightly duller
side, a small defect in the cutting edge, the reasons are endless.


Perhaps I was misunderstood, I was soliciting your opinion to understand why
you felt it wouldn't work, not to suggest you were wrong.



My
suggestion to make a tool that is circularly ground (no peripheral relief)
helps avoid the problem. Counterbores are made thus, and for that
reason.

Working with large tools in a drill press that has little to NO rigidity
is
a recipe for disaster. I am not of the opinion that it won't work, but
I
am of the opinion that it works only for those that don't know the
difference between a milling machine and a drill press. Once you're
used
a mill, even one as spindly as a Bridgeport (I can say that, I own one),
you'll fully understand what I mean. When you plunge cut with an end
mill
of the needed size, especially when it's held in a drill chuck, which is
NOT
intended to hold heat treated items like end mill shanks, the chances of
the
hole coming out even remotely the right size is almost non-existent.
That's
true even in a milling machine, especially a spindly one.

In a drill press, runout of the chuck holding the end mill alone would
likely be trouble. The spindle will allow the end mill to wallow
about,
and with the side relief of the end mill as it is, it's likely to hog in
and
create lots more problems than one can settle. Instead of piloting on
the
hole as it is generated, the end mill simply cuts away anything that gets
in
the way when it wallows about. Personally, I wouldn't use a drill press
for any kind of milling. Even when they make the cut, the degree of
precision sucks, and the finish is likely to be something for which you'd
be
constantly making apologies.

Hope this helps you understand my position.

Harold



Thanks, as much as I like being right I enjoy understanding why I was wrong
even more.

--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.

Opps, didn't see the depth criteria in the original message. The only
other thing I can think of short of a milling machine and endmill is a
spur type bit or what B&D calls their bullet drill bits(I think) and
that will leave a small hole in the middle, and they would have to be
modified a bit to give you a flat bottom.
You may be able to get away with a 4 flute endmill by using a drill
bushing in a jig, but that could get a little costly and you might be
better off subconstracting it out.

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

"James P Crombie" wrote in message
...

Marty
Drill your 7/8 hole with a regular drill to the proper depth. Then
uses a reground 7/8 drill with flat bottom. It will need a relief gash
in the center to enable it to cut properly and I would put a small
radius on the corners of the drill to prevent chipping.



Sadly, while your suggestion is a good one, one that I have used for the
bulk of my years in the shop, it won't work in his case. The size of the
hole versus the depth won't allow for it.

Harold



--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

James P Crombie

Summerside Machinist
Prince Edward Island Amateur Astronomer
Canada 3D Designer

E-mail
Astronomy webpage http://www.jamescrombie.com
Rhinoceros 3D webpage http://www.jamescrombie.com/rhino/
Mirror Grinder page http://www.jamescrombie.com/pics/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos
says...

... When you plunge cut with an end mill
of the needed size, especially when it's held in a drill chuck, which is NOT
intended to hold heat treated items like end mill shanks, the chances of the
hole coming out even remotely the right size is almost non-existent.

Plus there's a good chance that the end mill will come uncorked
out of the chuck - as you say, drill chucks are not designed for
this use!

Even running a horizontal milling machine with an end mill
in the spindle, where the setups are pretty rigid, one can
still not depend on the hole being any particular size when
plunging. I don't do this unless I'm just spot facing
something.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 17:59:25 -0300, James P Crombie
wrote:

|Marty
| Drill your 7/8 hole with a regular drill to the proper depth.

Hard to do that when the hole is only 1/10 inch deep.


| Then
|uses a reground 7/8 drill with flat bottom. It will need a relief gash
|in the center to enable it to cut properly and I would put a small
|radius on the corners of the drill to prevent chipping.
|at this url the second pic from the bopttom shows a bottom drill
|http://www.rushmachinery.com/prod01.htm
|
|Marty wrote:
| I have to drill a number of flat bottom holes, 7/8" diameter and 1/10"
| (.1") deep in some 2/10" (.2") thick aluminum. Is there a source for
| flat bottom drill bits of this size that will fit in the 1/2" drill
| chuck that's on my drill press? If there are no bits of this size with
| a turned down 1/2" shank, can an adapter be purchased to go from the
| 7/8" bit to the 1/2" chuck? Thanks for any help. Marty
|
|
|--
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|James P Crombie
|
|Summerside Machinist
|Prince Edward Island Amateur Astronomer
|Canada 3D Designer
|
|E-mail
|Astronomy webpage http://www.jamescrombie.com
|Rhinoceros 3D webpage http://www.jamescrombie.com/rhino/
|Mirror Grinder page http://www.jamescrombie.com/pics/
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------
|

Rex in Fort Worth

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...
What the
hell does a machinist know about house building?


Well unlike the bozo's that build tract houses, I bet you have a firm grasp
on the concepts of level, plum, and square. G

--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.

"Roger Shoaf" wrote in message
...

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...
What the
hell does a machinist know about house building?


Well unlike the bozo's that build tract houses, I bet you have a firm
grasp
on the concepts of level, plum, and square. G

--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.

Ah, that I do! And that also helps explain our slow progress. I'm not
convinced that anyone that has perfectionist tendencies should ever get
involved with building. It never ceases to amaze me how I can spend so
much time on something that construction people knock out in seconds. On
the other hand, we also don't rely on the painter covering mistakes made by
the drywall people, and them covering mistakes made by the framers. We
do it right, no matter how many attempts it takes. :-)

Harold

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:



Ah, that I do! And that also helps explain our slow progress. I'm not
convinced that anyone that has perfectionist tendencies should ever get
involved with building. It never ceases to amaze me how I can spend so
much time on something that construction people knock out in seconds. On
the other hand, we also don't rely on the painter covering mistakes made by
the drywall people, and them covering mistakes made by the framers. We
do it right, no matter how many attempts it takes. :-)

Harold


Get Robin to send you "our" level. It should be someone else's turn by now.
Course, that could make things go slower I suppose.

michael

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos
says...

... For some,
so many years have elapsed since pride was a part of workmanship that it's a
relatively unknown commodity anymore. How do we expect anyone to learn a
craft properly when the mentors don't know the trade, either? It can be
hard to get things square and plumb when you try. Imagine what you get when
you don't care!

Just remember Harold that things maybe weren't as great as all that.

My house was built in the late 1800s, and yes it has rough-cut
lumber in it, it's solid, but there's not a right angle in it
and if you look close at the workmanship it's strictly so-so.

They made up for the fact that they put it up in a day, by using
oversize parts. I truly believe that this was a 'knock it
together' kind of dwelling.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold & Susan
Vordos
says...

... For some,
so many years have elapsed since pride was a part of workmanship that
it's a
relatively unknown commodity anymore. How do we expect anyone to learn
a
craft properly when the mentors don't know the trade, either? It can
be
hard to get things square and plumb when you try. Imagine what you get
when
you don't care!

Just remember Harold that things maybe weren't as great as all that.

My house was built in the late 1800s, and yes it has rough-cut
lumber in it, it's solid, but there's not a right angle in it
and if you look close at the workmanship it's strictly so-so.

They made up for the fact that they put it up in a day, by using
oversize parts. I truly believe that this was a 'knock it
together' kind of dwelling.

Jim

Interesting, Jim. Makes one wonder if the construction trades have always
been a so-so kind of thing. Strangely, my father worked as a carpenter
until he lost his health and eventually succumbed, but my memories of him
are such that he was always struggling for perfection. He did rough
framing right down to fine finishing and cabinet type work and always kept
quality uppermost in his mind.

If you want to see an example of someone trying to do a perfect job, a visit
to our area would be rewarding. A good friend and neighbor, a retired EE
from Boeing, is building a huge exposed beam house. He's been working on it
as long as Susan and I have been struggling with our home. This guy is
doing it all, starting with large Douglas Fir trees, which he saws with his
own mill, permanently set up on his 36 acres. His view is priceless, a
perfect one of Mt. St. Helens, which is about 30 miles distant.
Wonderful workmanship, mostly with hand type tools, although many are
powered, such as his planer, with which he fine tunes the beams. Most
impressive.

Could it be that things haven't changed, that I'm the one that's screwed up?

Harold

"Ted Edwards" wrote in message
...
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

My opinion? they don't know what the hell you're talking about. For
some,
so many years have elapsed since pride was a part of workmanship that
it's a
relatively unknown commodity anymore.

We have done almost all of the construction on this house ourselves.
(Down to the taping and mudding now.) Our building inspector, a
knowlegable and pleasant guy, would drop in on his way home if he had a
bad day just to see what someone was doing who regarded the code as an
absolutely minimal starting point.

He also liked to see what tools two old farts had invented to do what
usually took a crew. :-)

Ted

Like in your instance, my neighbor, mentioned above, has an unusual rapport
with the county housing department head. He often stops by to see the
progress on the timber framed home.

Yes, I agree, code is minimum. Working beyond code is not a bad idea.
The timber framed home mentioned has been engineered to survive a magnitude
8 earthquake. Far and away beyond any local requirements. Could be
the EE will get the last laugh. Hard to say!

Harold

Harold, I don't think that things have changed since Christ was a carpenter,
literally. I think that there have been jobs that needed perfection and
workmen who needed to do "perfect" work, and jobs and workmen who were
"journeymen". Framing a house when the key factor is getting it done in
three days - you'll get a house that's hopefully sound, reasonably square
and plumb, but really needs to be covered with drywall - no exposed joints
here! Your friend is building a million dollar house, if he had to pay
people to do it - maybe multi-million dollar! Pride of workmanship for the
other guys is getting the frame up in three days, meeting the deadline and
maybe getting the bonus!

In car restoration these days there is a new breed of perfectionist - guys
who spend thousands of hours duplicating the scrawled chalk marks, the
overspray, the drippy seam-seal, the really rather poor assemblywork of
mid-sixties cars - including not only the Chevvies and Fords, but the
Ferraris and Maseratis, which were built like tractors!

Pride of workmanship isn't dead - I'm often very proud of my workmanship!

Cheers, Brian


"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...
Interesting, Jim. Makes one wonder if the construction trades have
always
been a so-so kind of thing. Strangely, my father worked as a carpenter
until he lost his health and eventually succumbed, but my memories of him
are such that he was always struggling for perfection. He did rough
framing right down to fine finishing and cabinet type work and always kept
quality uppermost in his mind.

If you want to see an example of someone trying to do a perfect job, a
visit
to our area would be rewarding. A good friend and neighbor, a retired EE
from Boeing, is building a huge exposed beam house. He's been working on
it
as long as Susan and I have been struggling with our home. This guy is
doing it all, starting with large Douglas Fir trees, which he saws with
his
own mill, permanently set up on his 36 acres. His view is priceless, a
perfect one of Mt. St. Helens, which is about 30 miles distant.
Wonderful workmanship, mostly with hand type tools, although many are
powered, such as his planer, with which he fine tunes the beams. Most
impressive.

Could it be that things haven't changed, that I'm the one that's screwed
up?

Harold

If you want to see an example of someone trying to do a perfect job, a visit
to our area would be rewarding. A good friend and neighbor, a retired EE
from Boeing, is building a huge exposed beam house. He's been working on it
as long as Susan and I have been struggling with our home. This guy is
doing it all, starting with large Douglas Fir trees, which he saws with his
own mill, permanently set up on his 36 acres. His view is priceless, a
perfect one of Mt. St. Helens, which is about 30 miles distant.
Wonderful workmanship, mostly with hand type tools, although many are
powered, such as his planer, with which he fine tunes the beams. Most
impressive.

Could it be that things haven't changed, that I'm the one that's screwed up?

Harold

How long do you think this man will take to finish his house, building
it as you describe? Will the resale value be any higher than a
similarly-sized knock-together? He obviously is doing it more as a
hobby than as a necessity, and lives comfortably in another house for
now. He has a retirement income. Whether he moves in tomorrow or
next year doesn't matter to him. Most of us don't have these
luxuries.

I built a house in 1978, post and beam inspired by reading lots of
Mother Earth News articles. Took me a year, full time, and I still
had to call in some contractor help at the end. I started the house
enthusiastic but with no experience, and finished it experienced but
totally burned out.

My conclusion - the only advantages contractors have is speed and
knowledge about how to cover up their mistakes. Craftsmanship never
entered into the picture.

The good news - my wife and I raised our kids in that house and still
love it.


Mike Rainey

In article , Beecrofter says...

Frame construction replaced timber frame construction to allow
unskilled labor to build houses.

And it sure shows in my house! I think they
were still getting the process down when
it was going up....

Jim

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==================================================

On 11 Sep 2003 16:40:44 -0700, (Michael Rainey)
wrote:

If you want to see an example of someone trying to do a perfect job, a visit
to our area would be rewarding. A good friend and neighbor, a retired EE
from Boeing, is building a huge exposed beam house. He's been working on it
as long as Susan and I have been struggling with our home. This guy is
doing it all, starting with large Douglas Fir trees, which he saws with his
own mill, permanently set up on his 36 acres. His view is priceless, a
perfect one of Mt. St. Helens, which is about 30 miles distant.
Wonderful workmanship, mostly with hand type tools, although many are
powered, such as his planer, with which he fine tunes the beams. Most
impressive.

Could it be that things haven't changed, that I'm the one that's screwed up?

Harold

How long do you think this man will take to finish his house, building
it as you describe? Will the resale value be any higher than a
similarly-sized knock-together? He obviously is doing it more as a
hobby than as a necessity, and lives comfortably in another house for
now. He has a retirement income. Whether he moves in tomorrow or
next year doesn't matter to him. Most of us don't have these
luxuries.

I built a house in 1978, post and beam inspired by reading lots of
Mother Earth News articles. Took me a year, full time, and I still
had to call in some contractor help at the end. I started the house
enthusiastic but with no experience, and finished it experienced but
totally burned out.

My conclusion - the only advantages contractors have is speed and
knowledge about how to cover up their mistakes. Craftsmanship never
entered into the picture.

The good news - my wife and I raised our kids in that house and still
love it.


Mike Rainey
IMO, there *always* have been perfectionists and wood butchers. Take
any old mansion, victorian or otherwise and walk into it with square,
level, and tape, and if that doesn't convince you, start taking off
some of the trim (some of which is the *only* thing holding the
windows in place) and you will see all kinds of scrap nailed into
place to provide supports, etc. Point is, if you waste time cutting a
piece of lumber to EXACLY 78-1/4" (not 3/16, not 1/8, not 5/32) the
fit may be precise; you may have wasted several pieces of wood trying
to get it "perfect", but the house will still stand for an awful long
time even if the measurement IS 78-5/32". Done a lot of homebuilding
and remodeling in my days, and I've seen just about all of it - some a
lot worse than others - but if the carpenter tries to do a reasonable
job - you will end up with a reasonable house, done fairly fast and
done fairly well. OTOH, I've seen "crooks" actually nail down a small
piece of drywall on the roof and cover it up with shingles because
they ran short of plywood. These are the guys that should not be in
the business and the houses will show it after a very short period of
time. Perfectionism is a good trait, but not always practical. It's
good to try to attain it, but not ya gotta be realistic.
Ken.

In article , Kenneth W. Sterling says...

IMO, there *always* have been perfectionists and wood butchers. Take
any old mansion, victorian or otherwise and walk into it with square,
level, and tape, and if that doesn't convince you, start taking off
some of the trim (some of which is the *only* thing holding the
windows in place) and you will see all kinds of scrap nailed into
place to provide supports, etc.

Again I have seen this in my own house. I had the original front
porch replaced several years ago, because it was getting quite
tatty.

Watching the original porch come apart was a *real* education,
it was clear that while the assembly was quick and dirty, whoever
built that knew his stuff.

4 vertical posts to hold up a beam that ran around the perimeter
as a header, with hip rafters tied from the house to that beam.

But the beam was a U-channel section made mostly from leftover
scrap from building the house. There were entire sections where
the bottom part of the "U" were simply omitted, with the side
plates taking all the load. It was boxed in with trimwork
to make it look nice-nice but in reality it was an amazing
exercise in minimalist engineering.

The carpenter's comment was, that even though the roof had been
going through, and the supports into the ground were rotting away,
it was still pretty solid. He thought that if the roof were
re-done and the front jacked up with new supports, it would have
lasted a long time still.

Jim

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JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

Ah, that I do! And that also helps explain our slow progress. I'm not
convinced that anyone that has perfectionist tendencies should ever get
involved with building. It never ceases to amaze me how I can spend so
much time on something that construction people knock out in seconds.
On
the other hand, we also don't rely on the painter covering mistakes made
by
the drywall people, and them covering mistakes made by the framers. We
do it right, no matter how many attempts it takes. :-)

Harold




I had a cousin that was a builder and I remember him telling the story about
the day the union business agent arrived screaming about my cousins
rejection of five "journeyman" carpenters in one day.

My cousin explained that he didn't have time to redo work or baby-sit so the
first thing he would do was ask the carpenter dispatched from the hall to
explain some of the scales on the framing square. If they could not do this
they were sent packing. This stopped the business agent in his tracks and
he seemed to get a better selection from the subsequent dispatches.

--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.

In article ,
says...


My cousin explained that he didn't have time to redo work or baby-sit so the
first thing he would do was ask the carpenter dispatched from the hall to
explain some of the scales on the framing square. If they could not do this
they were sent packing. This stopped the business agent in his tracks and
he seemed to get a better selection from the subsequent dispatches.



My stepmother grew up in a family of builders. Her father's
job interview consisted of having the applicant build a
pair of proper (compound angled legs) sawhorses from the
materials available on the job site. The result, and time
it took, was a good test of the carpenter's skill.

Ned Simmons

(Glenn Cramond) wrote in message . com...
"Marty" wrote in message ...
I have to drill a number of flat bottom holes, 7/8" diameter and 1/10"
(.1") deep in some 2/10" (.2") thick aluminum. Is there a source for
flat bottom drill bits of this size that will fit in the 1/2" drill
chuck that's on my drill press? If there are no bits of this size with
a turned down 1/2" shank, can an adapter be purchased to go from the
7/8" bit to the 1/2" chuck? Thanks for any help. Marty

Hi Marty,

Easy one if you can sharpen a drill by hand. It's called Zero Angle
sharpening. I'll put the instructions and a couple of drawings on
www.thepiers.net within the next couple of days.

With Zero angle sharpening I've drilled hundreds of 1/2" holes in 26
gauge material, no burrs. Your only problem may be getting the 7/8"
drill with a turned down shank check out
http://www.precisiontwistdrill.com/t...p/techhelp.asp.

Glenn

The details are up http://www.thepiers.net/pn/index.php...viewtopic&t=73

This will work for you, those suggesting more complex methods should
also go to the "easy way". In stead of drilling right through just
drill a blind hole. set the depth on your drilling machine.

Glenn

The company I work for buys drills with 1/2 inch shanks to 1-1/2 inch
diameter from various industrial suppliers. 7/8 inch is easily
purchased and not terribly pricy. You would have to grind it to zero
clearance but thats no big deal once you do it a couple of times.