have enough experience to know that a given-size drill bit (hss) won't
neccessarily 'yield' a drilled hole the same size as the drill bit IS,
due to whatever factors. those factors might be: point sides sharpened
at slightly different angles, or sharpened at same angle but different
lengths. also sides of drill edge 'flutes' worn/abraded...there are
'probably' other causes (which I'm unaware of/please detail).

but, other than 'drilling undersize and reaming', what's the best way
to drill a hole in mild steel and get the 'expected' size hole (aka:
have it yield the _same_ hole size as the bit size)?

I'll be using a BRAND new .177 number-sized drill bit, correct RPM,
and lube/fluid cooling, clamped down in a good drill press. anything
I'm overlooking?

thanks for insights :-)

If you do not want to ream, I would pre drill with a slightly undersized
bit and make the finish pass with the fresh factory drill bit. If you
get good results, continue to duplicate all conditions for all holes.

--


Keep the whole world singing. . .
Dan G

(remove the 7)



"bill yohler" wrote in message
om...
have enough experience to know that a given-size drill bit (hss) won't
neccessarily 'yield' a drilled hole the same size as the drill bit IS,
due to whatever factors. those factors might be: point sides sharpened
at slightly different angles, or sharpened at same angle but different
lengths. also sides of drill edge 'flutes' worn/abraded...there are
'probably' other causes (which I'm unaware of/please detail).

but, other than 'drilling undersize and reaming', what's the best way
to drill a hole in mild steel and get the 'expected' size hole (aka:
have it yield the _same_ hole size as the bit size)?

I'll be using a BRAND new .177 number-sized drill bit, correct RPM,
and lube/fluid cooling, clamped down in a good drill press. anything
I'm overlooking?

thanks for insights :-)

So what *is* your tolerance? And how are you measuring?
And what is the problem if you get say a .178" hole?

When I want a precisely sized hole, I drill undersize and then ream.

When I drill, I know it is a fairly imprecise operation.

You will spend a lot more on a drill grinder setup then you will on
the occasional reamer.

Anyway, it's a good question. I've seen a bunch of articles (in
magazines, not on the web) that say to stone the trailing edge of
the secondary relief angle behind the floozbub or something else.
Always just with words, never a *good* drawing. Admittedly, this
is an issue that cries out for a good piece of tech writing to
communicate.

Grant

bill yohler wrote:
have enough experience to know that a given-size drill bit (hss) won't
neccessarily 'yield' a drilled hole the same size as the drill bit IS,
due to whatever factors. those factors might be: point sides sharpened
at slightly different angles, or sharpened at same angle but different
lengths. also sides of drill edge 'flutes' worn/abraded...there are
'probably' other causes (which I'm unaware of/please detail).

but, other than 'drilling undersize and reaming', what's the best way
to drill a hole in mild steel and get the 'expected' size hole (aka:
have it yield the _same_ hole size as the bit size)?

I'll be using a BRAND new .177 number-sized drill bit, correct RPM,
and lube/fluid cooling, clamped down in a good drill press. anything
I'm overlooking?

thanks for insights :-)

bill yohler wrote:

have enough experience to know that a given-size drill bit (hss) won't
neccessarily 'yield' a drilled hole the same size as the drill bit IS,
due to whatever factors. those factors might be: point sides sharpened
at slightly different angles, or sharpened at same angle but different
lengths. also sides of drill edge 'flutes' worn/abraded...there are
'probably' other causes (which I'm unaware of/please detail).

but, other than 'drilling undersize and reaming', what's the best way
to drill a hole in mild steel and get the 'expected' size hole (aka:
have it yield the _same_ hole size as the bit size)?

I'll be using a BRAND new .177 number-sized drill bit, correct RPM,
and lube/fluid cooling, clamped down in a good drill press. anything
I'm overlooking?

thanks for insights :-)

If you have a new drill from a good manufacturer and locate the hole
with a punch it should come out withing a couple of thousandths of the
nominal size. With a resharped drill done by hand or a cheap sharpener
you could get anything.

John

Drill in scrap first and measure the hole produced.

--

Ron Thompson
On the Beautiful Mississippi Gulf Coast
USA

http://www.plansandprojects.com

Where did everyone go? Oh, yeah.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/castinghobby/
Y'all come, ya hear?
*******
"bill yohler" wrote in message
om...
have enough experience to know that a given-size drill bit (hss) won't
neccessarily 'yield' a drilled hole the same size as the drill bit IS,
due to whatever factors. those factors might be: point sides sharpened
at slightly different angles, or sharpened at same angle but different
lengths. also sides of drill edge 'flutes' worn/abraded...there are
'probably' other causes (which I'm unaware of/please detail).

but, other than 'drilling undersize and reaming', what's the best way
to drill a hole in mild steel and get the 'expected' size hole (aka:
have it yield the _same_ hole size as the bit size)?

I'll be using a BRAND new .177 number-sized drill bit, correct RPM,
and lube/fluid cooling, clamped down in a good drill press. anything
I'm overlooking?

thanks for insights :-)

bill yohler wrote:

have enough experience to know that a given-size drill bit (hss) won't
neccessarily 'yield' a drilled hole the same size as the drill bit IS,
due to whatever factors. those factors might be: point sides sharpened
at slightly different angles, or sharpened at same angle but different
lengths. also sides of drill edge 'flutes' worn/abraded...there are
'probably' other causes (which I'm unaware of/please detail).

but, other than 'drilling undersize and reaming', what's the best way
to drill a hole in mild steel and get the 'expected' size hole (aka:
have it yield the _same_ hole size as the bit size)?

I'll be using a BRAND new .177 number-sized drill bit, correct RPM,
and lube/fluid cooling, clamped down in a good drill press. anything
I'm overlooking?

thanks for insights :-)


Like Dan G said- use your drill as though it were a reamer. Just
predrill first with a drill that's .005 to .010 undersize and then
follow up with your final drill size.

In article ,
says...

but, other than 'drilling undersize and reaming', what's the best way
to drill a hole in mild steel and get the 'expected' size hole (aka:
have it yield the _same_ hole size as the bit size)?

"Same" being how close? If you want to create a hole that
is sized within 0.0001 inch tolerance, you can't really
do it by just drilling.

Maybe if you put a tolerance number on your hole diameter
it would be easier to pick the best way to do it.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"bill yohler" wrote:

but, other than 'drilling undersize and reaming', what's the best way
to drill a hole in mild steel and get the 'expected' size hole (aka:
have it yield the _same_ hole size as the bit size)?


What do you mean by "_same_"? There is no such thing as "exact" in
metalworking (or anything physical, for that matter); you can only work to
within a given tolerance. The smaller the tolerance, the more difficult it
is to achieve. The tolerance required will generally dictate the tools and
techniques needed to accomplish the task.

The thing to remember about standard drills is that they are *incapable* of
producing extremely round holes of precise diameter (i.e., they do not
operate to very close tolerances). In fact, drilled holes are often not even
particularly straight. Even a new drill of very high quality will produce
holes that tend to be trigon in cross-section and slightly oversized. (Note:
if you are using a cheap drill, you might as well just forget about even
getting close to your desired size.) The amount of oversize can be estimated
at +0.004" to +0.006" per inch of drill diameter, but this can vary
depending on a number of factors, including the geometry of the drill (how
well it was made), the material being drilled, the rigidity of your setup,
the concentricity of your drill with the spindle axis, etc.

The bottom line is, if you simply need to make a clearance hole for a bolt,
then drilling a hole with a standard drill bit is usually fine. But if you
need to produce a very round and precisely-sized hole (e.g., a running fit
for a shaft), then you are using the wrong tool (for the finishing
operation).

Regards,
Michael

tomcas writes:

Like Dan G said- use your drill as though it were a reamer. Just
predrill first with a drill that's .005 to .010 undersize and then
follow up with your final drill size.

Hmm, you tried that? Or is this just what you imagine? In my experience,
drills cannot ream. You can't use such a small step up in drill size, it
won't cut, it just rubs and smears the metal. That's why there has to be
reamers for reaming.

If somebody could manufacture a drill that would hold a +/- .0001"
diameter and location tolerance they would become very rich. Every
manufacturer would buy them to avoid second operations like reaming,
boring, honing, grinding. With a good setup and drill I've seen them
hold a +/- .0005" tolerance. Then again I work on vertical machining
centers not drill presses. I still don’t expect to hold that so
I make the holes under and do the secondary operation. I've never used
a drill like a reamer. I prefer endmills or boring bars.


Jeff

ok, guys, thanks one and all.

more info: tightwad here hoping to drill a .177 or .178 sized hole
without reaming to size, centered in end of a .250 OD piece of cold
rolled mild steel round, in my lathe (this will result in sort of
'thin wall pipe' of sorts) withOUT 'springing for' a reamer. mid-term
goal being to silver solder into this (drilled) hole the 'head' end of
a (for all practical purposes) round brass pilot jet, OD of jet .177
inch, or maybe two ten-thou's over that. final intent being, to place
a 'hex head' on other end of this same very short steel jet
'extension', to make it 'real world adjustable' (using a small
quarter-inch drive socket) WITHOUT having to 'spring for' the special
"single D" tool required, ordinarily, to turn (adjust) these same two
jets (one per carb). that tool's a 50-buck item...

note the existing 'head' of the 2 pilot jets are each 'recessed into'
a sort of 'bucket shaped depression' in their respective carbs (& said
'bucket' wall is approx .260 in diameter), making gripping the jets
with vicegrips (or anything similar, eg: needlenoses, pin vise, etc)
impossible. also tried cutting a 'straight slot' into one jet 'top'
for a normal screwdriver, but, due to dimensions _and_ tightness of
jets in carb body screwthreads, this was a 'poor choice'; reason being
it removed (broke off) half the 'existing tiny head' area. so I then
had to spend some nerve-wracking painful _hours_ of drilling jet
center out while it was 'in situ' IN the carb, using easy-outs,
penetrants, torch heat applications to carb body, etc....

truth be known, rather than silver solder, I'd prefer to taper the
shaft of the brass pilot jets slightly (quarter inch per foot), then
ream the 2 drilled holes (in the steel 'short hex head extensions')
with the 'correct' section of a (shortened) #2 taper pin reamer,
freeze the pilot, heat the 'new' steel pieces, and "shrink fit 'em"
on/over the brass pilot ends, but, alas, the tightwad factor still
applies & I got no correct-sized taper pin reamer here :-(

so, what's a poor boy ta'do?

Just drill the hole so your jet is a sloppy slip fit. .002 to .004 inches
should do nicely. Place the jet in the hole and silver solder it up. You
actually need the clearance for the solder to wick in and have some
strength.

Erich

"bill yohler" wrote in message
m...
ok, guys, thanks one and all.

more info: tightwad here hoping to drill a .177 or .178 sized hole
without reaming to size, centered in end of a .250 OD piece of cold
rolled mild steel round, in my lathe (this will result in sort of
'thin wall pipe' of sorts) withOUT 'springing for' a reamer. mid-term
goal being to silver solder into this (drilled) hole the 'head' end of
a (for all practical purposes) round brass pilot jet, OD of jet .177
inch, or maybe two ten-thou's over that. final intent being, to place
a 'hex head' on other end of this same very short steel jet
'extension', to make it 'real world adjustable' (using a small
quarter-inch drive socket) WITHOUT having to 'spring for' the special
"single D" tool required, ordinarily, to turn (adjust) these same two
jets (one per carb). that tool's a 50-buck item...

note the existing 'head' of the 2 pilot jets are each 'recessed into'
a sort of 'bucket shaped depression' in their respective carbs (& said
'bucket' wall is approx .260 in diameter), making gripping the jets
with vicegrips (or anything similar, eg: needlenoses, pin vise, etc)
impossible. also tried cutting a 'straight slot' into one jet 'top'
for a normal screwdriver, but, due to dimensions _and_ tightness of
jets in carb body screwthreads, this was a 'poor choice'; reason being
it removed (broke off) half the 'existing tiny head' area. so I then
had to spend some nerve-wracking painful _hours_ of drilling jet
center out while it was 'in situ' IN the carb, using easy-outs,
penetrants, torch heat applications to carb body, etc....

truth be known, rather than silver solder, I'd prefer to taper the
shaft of the brass pilot jets slightly (quarter inch per foot), then
ream the 2 drilled holes (in the steel 'short hex head extensions')
with the 'correct' section of a (shortened) #2 taper pin reamer,
freeze the pilot, heat the 'new' steel pieces, and "shrink fit 'em"
on/over the brass pilot ends, but, alas, the tightwad factor still
applies & I got no correct-sized taper pin reamer here :-(

so, what's a poor boy ta'do?

In article ,
says...

ok, guys, thanks one and all.

more info: tightwad here hoping to drill a .177 or .178 sized hole
without reaming to size, centered in end of a .250 OD piece of cold
rolled mild steel round, in my lathe (this will result in sort of
'thin wall pipe' of sorts) withOUT 'springing for' a reamer. mid-term
goal being to silver solder into this (drilled) hole the 'head' end of
a (for all practical purposes) round brass pilot jet, OD of jet .177
inch, or maybe two ten-thou's over that. final intent being, to place
a 'hex head' on other end of this same very short steel jet
'extension', to make it 'real world adjustable' (using a small
quarter-inch drive socket) WITHOUT having to 'spring for' the special
"single D" tool required, ordinarily, to turn (adjust) these same two
jets (one per carb). that tool's a 50-buck item...

1) you don't need to get a 0.0001 tolerance hole to silver
solder the brass part into the steel part. You could have
a thou of clearance and it will work find.

2) if you absolutely feel that you need to manufacture the
hole better than that, simply bore it to size using your
lathe and a small boring bar. You can size it will within
a thou that way. As mentioned you don't really want a
press-in fit for silver soldering.

3) what kind of carb has an adjustable pilot fuel jet that
is manipulated with a D-shaped tool? Most pilot fuel jets
simply screw into the carb body and are swapped out if
the size of the jet is not right.

4) the D-shaped adjusting tools are available for about
ten bucks in most auto parts stores.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

To silver solder properly you need .002-.003" clearance anyway. Just
drill it and solder it in. Done.

bill yohler wrote:
ok, guys, thanks one and all.

more info: tightwad here hoping to drill a .177 or .178 sized hole
without reaming to size, centered in end of a .250 OD piece of cold
rolled mild steel round, in my lathe (this will result in sort of
'thin wall pipe' of sorts) withOUT 'springing for' a reamer. mid-term
goal being to silver solder into this (drilled) hole the 'head' end of
a (for all practical purposes) round brass pilot jet, OD of jet .177
inch, or maybe two ten-thou's over that. final intent being, to place
a 'hex head' on other end of this same very short steel jet
'extension', to make it 'real world adjustable' (using a small
quarter-inch drive socket) WITHOUT having to 'spring for' the special
"single D" tool required, ordinarily, to turn (adjust) these same two
jets (one per carb). that tool's a 50-buck item...

note the existing 'head' of the 2 pilot jets are each 'recessed into'
a sort of 'bucket shaped depression' in their respective carbs (& said
'bucket' wall is approx .260 in diameter), making gripping the jets
with vicegrips (or anything similar, eg: needlenoses, pin vise, etc)
impossible. also tried cutting a 'straight slot' into one jet 'top'
for a normal screwdriver, but, due to dimensions _and_ tightness of
jets in carb body screwthreads, this was a 'poor choice'; reason being
it removed (broke off) half the 'existing tiny head' area. so I then
had to spend some nerve-wracking painful _hours_ of drilling jet
center out while it was 'in situ' IN the carb, using easy-outs,
penetrants, torch heat applications to carb body, etc....

truth be known, rather than silver solder, I'd prefer to taper the
shaft of the brass pilot jets slightly (quarter inch per foot), then
ream the 2 drilled holes (in the steel 'short hex head extensions')
with the 'correct' section of a (shortened) #2 taper pin reamer,
freeze the pilot, heat the 'new' steel pieces, and "shrink fit 'em"
on/over the brass pilot ends, but, alas, the tightwad factor still
applies & I got no correct-sized taper pin reamer here :-(

so, what's a poor boy ta'do?

Richard J Kinch wrote:

tomcas writes:


Like Dan G said- use your drill as though it were a reamer. Just
predrill first with a drill that's .005 to .010 undersize and then
follow up with your final drill size.


Hmm, you tried that? Or is this just what you imagine? In my experience,
drills cannot ream. You can't use such a small step up in drill size, it
won't cut, it just rubs and smears the metal. That's why there has to be
reamers for reaming.


I hope I'm not imagining it, I've done this a couple of hundred times in
the past 26 years. Depending on the hardness of the metal and sharpness
of the drill any material removal over approximately .002 cuts and does
not abrade. Sure reamers do a better job and when the desired size
reamer is available I naturally go that route but in pinch I've found
this method works fine.

Jeff wrote:

If somebody could manufacture a drill that would hold a +/- .0001"
diameter and location tolerance they would become very rich. Every
manufacturer would buy them to avoid second operations like reaming,
boring, honing, grinding.

Isn't this exactly what gun drilling machines do?

tomcas writes:

Like Dan G said- use your drill as though it were a reamer. Just
predrill first with a drill that's .005 to .010 undersize and then
follow up with your final drill size.


Hmm, you tried that? Or is this just what you imagine? In my
experience, drills cannot ream. You can't use such a small step up in
drill size, it won't cut, it just rubs and smears the metal. That's
why there has to be reamers for reaming.


I hope I'm not imagining it, I've done this a couple of hundred times
in the past 26 years. Depending on the hardness of the metal and
sharpness of the drill any material removal over approximately .002
cuts and does not abrade. Sure reamers do a better job and when the
desired size reamer is available I naturally go that route but in
pinch I've found this method works fine.

I suspect there are three regions, (1) too small an increment to possibly
work, (2) small increments that may or may not work depending on a lot of
factors like drill sharpening, speed/feed, lubricant, etc., and (3) big
enough increments that almost have to work. What the incremental
dimensions between these regions are is the real question.

All I know is trying to go up one letter size (e.g., D=0.246 to E=0.250 to
get a nice 0.250 hole) is too small an increment, at least in mild steel
with the import TiN drills I have. Maybe two steps would work. But then
you're missing the purpose of roundness, accuracy, and finish.

An old toolmaker's method is to pre-drill .010" - .015" undersize then rub
the sharp corners off the outer edges of the finish drill before drilling at
a reduced speed, high feed rate & a little oil. I have used this method for
many years mostly for fitting dowell pins. I have never needed a reamer to
do this.

Paul Cordell, Nth. Qld. Australia.