Here's a silly question... so why would you pay for a permit and/or
inspector to inspect work you do inside your home? Before someone
scolds me keep this in mind, I am a first time homeowner and I have
only been living in my home for a few months. What types of things
require permits or inspectors? I recently painted some walls, replaced
a toilet, and added a light fixture outside my garage. I have other
things on my agenda for the next few years and I can't see why I would
pay someone to inspect my work. With regards to plumbing, if you don't
do it right you get immediate notification in the form of a leak. The
electrical stuff seems pretty trivial to me since I am an electrical
engineer with a masters degree. Although I must admit to having to
look up the correct wire gauge for the spotlight I added outside my
garage. A follow up question would be what if the previous owner did
something without getting a permit or getting the work inspected?
Would I be responsible for paying for those things?

Oh_Jeeze wrote:
Here's a silly question... so why would you pay for a permit and/or
inspector to inspect work you do inside your home?

To notify the tax assessor that your property tax needs to go up. ;-)

Before someone scolds me keep this in mind, I am a first time
homeowner and I have only been living in my home for a few months.
What types of things require permits or inspectors?

I get a permit for major electrical work. I haven't done any major
structural or plumbing work yet.

I recently painted some walls, replaced a toilet, and added a light
fixture outside my garage. I have other things on my agenda for the
next few years and I can't see why I would pay someone to inspect my
work. With regards to plumbing, if you don't do it right you get
immediate notification in the form of a leak.

That's true for the supply lines. Faulty drains are much more
dangerous, and they don't necessarily show that they are done wrong.

The electrical stuff seems pretty trivial to me since I am an
electrical engineer with a masters degree. Although I must admit to
having to look up the correct wire gauge for the spotlight I added
outside my garage. A follow up question would be what if the
previous owner did something without getting a permit or getting the
work inspected? Would I be responsible for paying for those things?

You would assume that he did everything legally. (but if something is
obviously unsafe, you should consider redoing it right)

Best regards,
Bob

zxcvbob wrote:
Oh_Jeeze wrote:

Here's a silly question... so why would you pay for a permit and/or
inspector to inspect work you do inside your home?


To notify the tax assessor that your property tax needs to go up. ;-)

Before someone scolds me keep this in mind, I am a first time
homeowner and I have only been living in my home for a few months.
What types of things require permits or inspectors?


I get a permit for major electrical work. I haven't done any major
structural or plumbing work yet.

I recently painted some walls, replaced a toilet, and added a light
fixture outside my garage. I have other things on my agenda for the
next few years and I can't see why I would pay someone to inspect my
work. With regards to plumbing, if you don't do it right you get
immediate notification in the form of a leak.


That's true for the supply lines. Faulty drains are much more
dangerous, and they don't necessarily show that they are done wrong.

The electrical stuff seems pretty trivial to me since I am an
electrical engineer with a masters degree. Although I must admit to
having to look up the correct wire gauge for the spotlight I added
outside my garage. A follow up question would be what if the
previous owner did something without getting a permit or getting the
work inspected? Would I be responsible for paying for those things?


You would assume that he did everything legally. (but if something is
obviously unsafe, you should consider redoing it right)

Best regards,
Bob
Hi,
Insurance coverage? If you did something without permit/inspection and
something happens(like fire), you won't be covered.
Tony

"Oh_Jeeze" wrote in message
oups.com...
Here's a silly question... so why would you pay for a permit and/or
inspector to inspect work you do inside your home?

Most areas do not need permits to paint, change a light fixture, replace a
toilet, that type of thing.
Any changes or additions to wiring, or plumbing probably need a permit. Any
stuctural work to the home will most likely need a permit. New windows,
roof, furnace in our area need a permit.

It is kind of a mixed blessing. If you do a upgrade to your house that needs
a permit, and you do, the liability falls to the inspections office when
they sigh off and ok the work. If you don't get and inspection, and your
house burns down from a poor wiring job, or bad furnace install, good luck
collecting insurance! The liability just fell on you!
Many fear that it tips of the city to raise your taxes, it may. I also know
of many homes that have had major remodels, additions put on, and the city
tax dept never paid any attention!
Pull a permit, CYA!
Greg

You probably wouldn't need a permit for most home repairs, but home
modifications might need permits. Some reasons for permits: 1. to make sure
the contractor has done the work properly. 2. Make sure the modifications
are safe. 3. Insurance companies are not in business to hand out money. If
they discover you've modified your home without permits, and/or not up to
code, you might be denied your claim. Remember, your house plans might be on
file with your building agency and the insurance co. has access to them.

Electrical circuitry in a home is not complicated, but the codes are not
intuitive, they can be tricky, and your masters degree won't help you that
much. That's the reason for getting permits---to make sure the job is done
to code.

Check with your inspector to find out what you need permits for and for what
work has been done in the past. They would probably want the work done to
code. The building agencies that I've dealt with have been reasonable in
that respect.
Ron

"Oh_Jeeze" wrote in message
oups.com...
Before someone
scolds me keep this in mind, I am a first time homeowner and I have
only been living in my home for a few months. What types of things
require permits or inspectors? I recently painted some walls, replaced
a toilet, and added a light fixture outside my garage. I have other
things on my agenda for the next few years and I can't see why I would
pay someone to inspect my work. With regards to plumbing, if you don't
do it right you get immediate notification in the form of a leak. The
electrical stuff seems pretty trivial to me since I am an electrical
engineer with a masters degree. Although I must admit to having to
look up the correct wire gauge for the spotlight I added outside my
garage. A follow up question would be what if the previous owner did
something without getting a permit or getting the work inspected?
Would I be responsible for paying for those things?

Tony Hwang wrote:
zxcvbob wrote:

Oh_Jeeze wrote:

Here's a silly question... so why would you pay for a permit and/or
inspector to inspect work you do inside your home?



To notify the tax assessor that your property tax needs to go up. ;-)

Before someone scolds me keep this in mind, I am a first time
homeowner and I have only been living in my home for a few months.
What types of things require permits or inspectors?



I get a permit for major electrical work. I haven't done any major
structural or plumbing work yet.

I recently painted some walls, replaced a toilet, and added a light
fixture outside my garage. I have other things on my agenda for the
next few years and I can't see why I would pay someone to inspect my
work. With regards to plumbing, if you don't do it right you get
immediate notification in the form of a leak.



That's true for the supply lines. Faulty drains are much more
dangerous, and they don't necessarily show that they are done wrong.

The electrical stuff seems pretty trivial to me since I am an
electrical engineer with a masters degree. Although I must admit to
having to look up the correct wire gauge for the spotlight I added
outside my garage. A follow up question would be what if the
previous owner did something without getting a permit or getting the
work inspected? Would I be responsible for paying for those things?



You would assume that he did everything legally. (but if something is
obviously unsafe, you should consider redoing it right)

Best regards,
Bob

Hi,
Insurance coverage? If you did something without permit/inspection and
something happens(like fire), you won't be covered.
Tony

If you have that type of coverage Tony, you really ought to
think about going with a different company. If your kid
starts a fire in his bedroom, you are covered, if you do
something stupid and start a fire with gasoline, you are
covered. Regardless of what stupid thing you do you should
be covered. Besides, they will probably never find the
cause and they couldn't blame you if they don't know who did it.

Oh_Jeeze wrote:
Here's a silly question... so why would you pay for a permit and/or
inspector to inspect work you do inside your home? Before someone
scolds me keep this in mind, I am a first time homeowner and I have
only been living in my home for a few months. What types of things
require permits or inspectors? I recently painted some walls, replaced
a toilet, and added a light fixture outside my garage. I have other
things on my agenda for the next few years and I can't see why I would
pay someone to inspect my work. With regards to plumbing, if you don't
do it right you get immediate notification in the form of a leak. The
electrical stuff seems pretty trivial to me since I am an electrical
engineer with a masters degree. Although I must admit to having to
look up the correct wire gauge for the spotlight I added outside my
garage. A follow up question would be what if the previous owner did
something without getting a permit or getting the work inspected?
Would I be responsible for paying for those things?


Most people don't get permits for inside work in the west.
Your local building department, city or county, can give you
a list of everything that requires a permit. They may
inform you verbally of all sort of stuff, but believe it
only if it is included on the list. They can also tell you
what must be done to meet code.

Painting, replacing windows, doors, floor coverings, walls
coverings (non structural) and replacing original fixtures
and appliances requires no permit in many if not mosts
areas. Since you are an electrical engineer you will
probably have little or no problem doing electrical work but
you won't know what the code is. Nonetheless you can easily
do minor stuff like adding new circuits. Anything major,
even if they can't see it, should be done with a permit and
inspected just to protect yourself. If you are handy you
can do plumbing and construction, but you need to look at
some books to see what is a,acceptable. You should also get
those free sheets that big box stores and other stores
dealing with the public have on electrical, plumbing, and
structural changes and other areas such as insulation,
concrete work, etc. This stuff should be up to date and
show what is necessary to meet the code.

If the previous owner did something and it is wrong or
unsafe, redo it correctly and forget getting a permit
whether or not the previous owner got a permit. If you
corrected the work remember it isn't your responsibility and
you don't know anything about it. The point is safety for
your family. Even if the work was under permit and
inspected, there may be no record at the building
department. So, an inquiry might result in an inspection
and possibly the requirement of a permit (read money) and a
following inspection even if the original was inspected and
passed. That kind of stuff can get lost easily in many
jurisdictions.

You might also want to find out what the fine is for not
getting a permit. In my area, if you do the work without a
permit and they find out they will fine you double the cost
of the permit. OTOH, if it isn't visible, they will never
find out. If it bothers you get the permit.

Before you believe what lots of people tell you about home
insurance, check your own policy and/or talk to you
insurance agent. Crappy insurance companies/agents will
screw you no matter what you do, good companies will cover
you no matter what you do. Anyway, why plan for a disaster,
do it right, do it safely, and protect your family so that
you won't have an insurance claim. Don't smoke in bed (or
at all), don't get drunk (without someone watching over
you), use flammable liquids judiciously, don't start fires
or barbecues with gasoline, keep the house clean, vacuum the
clothes dryer and vent periodically, maintain your furnace,
get rid of oily rags, and don't let your kids play with
matches and you will likely never see a fire.
Statistically, if you have a newer single family house, it
is highly likely that you will never suffer any fire damage
even if you are a complete slob at cleaning and smoke in bed
while draining a bottle of bourbon.

Farm and suburban out-building around here burn, mostly
because people burn weeds or fields when it is windy, and
houses burn when there are forests fires. Apartment house
occasionally suffer some fire damage, usually directly
caused by crappy clientel, but single residence houses
usually burn only when the fire department sets them on fire
for training purposes. A quick look at fire statistics can
be rather revealing, but may lead to question of why you are
paying so much in taxes for a fire district. Like many
people, I pay way more per month for health insurance than I
do annually for homeowners insurance, of which fire is a
tiny part.

"Oh_Jeeze" wrote in message
oups.com...
What types of things
require permits or inspectors?

Plumbing, electrical, outside construction, decks, roofs, anthing that could
increase your taxes.


I recently painted some walls, replaced
a toilet, and added a light fixture outside my garage. I have other
things on my agenda for the next few years and I can't see why I would
pay someone to inspect my work.

With regards to plumbing, if you don't
do it right you get immediate notification in the form of a leak.

Not always. Sometimes the problems take a long time to s urface. There is
more to it than leaks in water lines.

The
electrical stuff seems pretty trivial to me since I am an electrical
engineer with a masters degree.

BFD! Having a degree means you know how to read a book and memorize. It
does not mean you have the manual dexterity to make a proper connection. It
does not mean you know how to properly route a wire, mount a box, and a lot
of other practical applications that must be done manually. You may or may
not have those skills. In my experience, teachers are some of the worst
when it comes to doing physical work. Knowing that you need a hammer to hit
a nail does not mean you actually hit the target.

A follow up question would be what if the previous owner did
something without getting a permit or getting the work inspected?
Would I be responsible for paying for those things?

Chances are no one will ever find out. If everything ever done to a house
was inspected the towns would have to hire hundreds of more inspectors to
keep up. Don't be concerned about minor repairs on the inside. It is the
thing visible that you want to cover your ass.

"Oh_Jeeze" wrote in message
oups.com...
Here's a silly question... so why would you pay for a permit and/or
inspector to inspect work you do inside your home? Before someone
scolds me keep this in mind, I am a first time homeowner and I have
only been living in my home for a few months. What types of things
require permits or inspectors? I recently painted some walls, replaced
a toilet, and added a light fixture outside my garage. I have other
things on my agenda for the next few years and I can't see why I would
pay someone to inspect my work. With regards to plumbing, if you don't
do it right you get immediate notification in the form of a leak. The
electrical stuff seems pretty trivial to me since I am an electrical
engineer with a masters degree. Although I must admit to having to
look up the correct wire gauge for the spotlight I added outside my
garage. A follow up question would be what if the previous owner did
something without getting a permit or getting the work inspected?
Would I be responsible for paying for those things?


Kinda a tangent here, but I'd be curious to see what percentage of work
done that required a permit actually did get a permit.
I'm gonna guess that its below 50%

Dave

Greg O wrote:
"Oh_Jeeze" wrote in message
oups.com...

Here's a silly question... so why would you pay for a permit and/or
inspector to inspect work you do inside your home?


Most areas do not need permits to paint, change a light fixture, replace a
toilet, that type of thing.
Any changes or additions to wiring, or plumbing probably need a permit. Any
stuctural work to the home will most likely need a permit. New windows,
roof, furnace in our area need a permit.

It is kind of a mixed blessing. If you do a upgrade to your house that needs
a permit, and you do, the liability falls to the inspections office when
they sigh off and ok the work. If you don't get and inspection, and your
house burns down from a poor wiring job, or bad furnace install, good luck
collecting insurance! The liability just fell on you!
Many fear that it tips of the city to raise your taxes, it may. I also know
of many homes that have had major remodels, additions put on, and the city
tax dept never paid any attention!
Pull a permit, CYA!
Greg



I am afraid that you are mistaken about the permit authority
assuming liability. They assume no liability whatsoever.

As a previous poster said, your insurance will still cover you if
you do something stupid. They won't cover you if you do something
that is intended to defraud them, but mistakes are still covered,
after all, isn't that the definition of accident?

So to summarize, pulling a permit transfers NO liability to the
city, county, etc.

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

What types of things
require permits or inspectors?

The kinds of things which can be noticed by nosey neighbors who call
the city on you.

Otherwise, forget it.

What types of things
require permits or inspectors?

The kinds of things which can be noticed by nosey neighbors who call
the city on you.

Otherwise, forget it.

"Oh_Jeeze" wrote:

Here's a silly question... so why would you pay for a permit and/or
inspector to inspect work you do inside your home? Before someone
scolds me keep this in mind, I am a first time homeowner and I have
only been living in my home for a few months. What types of things
require permits or inspectors?

Depends on the jurisdiction. In general, large things like new roofs,
new electrical panels, decks, additions, etc, require permits. Repairs
and decorating don't. Like in my case, a replacement furnace doesn't
need a permit, unless you are changing the type of furnace, like going
from oil to gas.

As to why do people do it? Because if you don't have a permit, and the
authorities are upset, you can be required to rip out all the work, get
a permit, and re-do it. Or they can condemn the house as unsuitable for
living in.

Call your local building department, and ask. (or visit their web site,
if they are on-line like they should be these days).

garage. A follow up question would be what if the previous owner did
something without getting a permit or getting the work inspected?
Would I be responsible for paying for those things?

If you have a condition that is wrong, you may need to pull a permit and
fix it.

In general no, you buy a house as is, and the previous owners problems
are now yours. That is why a pre-purchase house inspection is such a
good idea, so you know what problems you are acquiring.

By "in general" I mean I'm not a lawyer that is familiar with your
localities laws.

Here's a silly question... so why would you pay for a permit and/or
inspector to inspect work you do inside your home? Before someone

Largely because the people with the guns and badges say you
have to do it.

Oh_Jeeze wrote:
Here's a silly question... so why would you pay for a permit and/or
inspector to inspect work you do inside your home?

Because it's the law, and often they can spot something wrong that you
missed.

Because if the worse happens and it was the result of your work and the
insurance company finds out, you may find yourself without insurance to pay
for the damage.

Because when it comes time to sell, you could end up in trouble.

Before someone
scolds me keep this in mind, I am a first time homeowner and I have
only been living in my home for a few months. What types of things
require permits or inspectors?

Depends on the local laws.

I recently painted some walls,
replaced a toilet, and added a light fixture outside my garage. I
have other things on my agenda for the next few years and I can't see
why I would pay someone to inspect my work. With regards to
plumbing, if you don't do it right you get immediate notification in
the form of a leak.

Not always. It is the stuff you don't think of or know about that will
cause problems. For example using two different metals in a connection
without insulation, may not leak right away but come two years later, it
could be a big problem.

The electrical stuff seems pretty trivial to me
since I am an electrical engineer with a masters degree.

There are a lot of things in the code, local or national that you would
not think of, but if pointed out to you, at least you would be able to
understand, maybe after the fire and death of a loved one.

Although I
must admit to having to look up the correct wire gauge for the
spotlight I added outside my garage. A follow up question would be
what if the previous owner did something without getting a permit or
getting the work inspected? Would I be responsible for paying for
those things?

Depends on local codes.

--
Joseph Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

if it was something done before you bought the house, the insurance company
should have sent an inspector over when you applied for coverage. they
should have told you if there is any situation(s) they have a problem with.

randy

Hi,
Insurance coverage? If you did something without permit/inspection and
something happens(like fire), you won't be covered.
Tony

From: "Ron"


You probably wouldn't need a permit for most home repairs, but home
modifications might need permits. Some reasons for permits: 1. to make sure
the contractor has done the work properly.

Example- I purchased a home where the original homeowner hired a hack to
install a 6' patio door. The header was undersized and was resting on only one
jack stud on one side of the door, and toenailed into an original stud on the
other side.

2. Make sure the modifications
are safe. 3. Insurance companies are not in business to hand out money. If
they discover you've modified your home without permits, and/or not up to
code, you might be denied your claim. Remember, your house plans might be on
file with your building agency and the insurance co. has access to them.

But this is relevant only if it can be undeniably determined that your
un-permitted, un-inspected work was indeed the cause of the loss.


Electrical circuitry in a home is not complicated, but the codes are not
intuitive, they can be tricky, and your masters degree won't help you that
much. That's the reason for getting permits---to make sure the job is done
to code.

There are certian tell-tale signs which can indicate very easily that a
handy-homeowner or a hack or a professional did some added work.


Check with your inspector to find out what you need permits for and for what
work has been done in the past. They would probably want the work done to
code. The building agencies that I've dealt with have been reasonable in
that respect.
Ron

"Oh_Jeeze" wrote in message
roups.com...
Before someone
scolds me keep this in mind, I am a first time homeowner and I have
only been living in my home for a few months. What types of things
require permits or inspectors? I recently painted some walls, replaced
a toilet, and added a light fixture outside my garage. I have other
things on my agenda for the next few years and I can't see why I would
pay someone to inspect my work. With regards to plumbing, if you don't
do it right you get immediate notification in the form of a leak. The
electrical stuff seems pretty trivial to me since I am an electrical
engineer with a masters degree. Although I must admit to having to
look up the correct wire gauge for the spotlight I added outside my
garage. A follow up question would be what if the previous owner did
something without getting a permit or getting the work inspected?
Would I be responsible for paying for those things?

This question is best asked of your local code enforcement
office.

Pop

Oh_Jeeze wrote:
Here's a silly question... so why would you pay for a permit
and/or
inspector to inspect work you do inside your home? Before
someone
scolds me keep this in mind, I am a first time homeowner and I
have
only been living in my home for a few months. What types of
things
require permits or inspectors? I recently painted some walls,
replaced a toilet, and added a light fixture outside my garage.
I
have other things on my agenda for the next few years and I
can't see
why I would pay someone to inspect my work. With regards to
plumbing, if you don't do it right you get immediate
notification in
the form of a leak. The electrical stuff seems pretty trivial
to me
since I am an electrical engineer with a masters degree.
Although I
must admit to having to look up the correct wire gauge for the
spotlight I added outside my garage. A follow up question
would be
what if the previous owner did something without getting a
permit or
getting the work inspected? Would I be responsible for paying
for
those things?

--
--
One should not be so p-h-i-l-o-p-o-L-e-m-i-c
lest they be seen as disputatious.

BFD! Having a degree means you know how to read a book and memorize.
It
does not mean you have the manual dexterity to make a proper
connection. It
does not mean you know how to properly route a wire, mount a box, and
a lot
of other practical applications that must be done manually. You may
or may
not have those skills. In my experience, teachers are some of the
worst
when it comes to doing physical work. Knowing that you need a hammer
to hit
a nail does not mean you actually hit the target.

Having a masters degree means that I understand electricity, electric,
and electronic components many orders of magnitude better than most
people. I know it's easy for someone who does not understand the
engineering process or what engineers do to become easily confused. My
8yrs of experience have been spent in a practical engineering
environment. So, not only do design but when need be I can make proper
connections, route wires, and mount boxes. I can hammer a nail too.
WIPPIE! Maybe if I were a wet eared engineer fresh out of college with
no practical experience would I not have the ability to connect a
circuit. But hey, as for your other advice, thanks for the repeating
everything "zxcvbob" pointed out.

xrongor wrote:
if it was something done before you bought the house, the insurance
company
should have sent an inspector over when you applied for coverage.
they
should have told you if there is any situation(s) they have a problem
with.

randy

Hi,
Insurance coverage? If you did something without permit/inspection
and
something happens(like fire), you won't be covered.
Tony


Thanks guys, I wouldn't put anything past the insurance companies.
Maybe they will pay, maybe they won't but I'm not really willing to
take the chance. It never hurts to have a second pair of eyes.
However, I wonder how someone would be able to tell the difference
between a newly installed charcoaled electrical addition and an old
charcoaled electrical addition. They would have to send a super
inspector at the time I bought the house to check if every wire burried
behind drywall is up to code. My insurance company basically sent
someone over to check that the property really exsisted and to check
the distance to the nearest fire hydrant.

There is not that much about electricity as such that one needs to
know to route wires etc. The main source of NEC and codes and such,
is
accumulated bad experience, knowing what kinds of things can go
wrong.

If you try to "route wires" without consulting with that body of
experience, you may repeat some mistakes that you simply forgot to
think about. Troubles that you would no doubt understand once they
are
brought to your attention, but may not necessarily recognize at the
time of making decision.

I am not insinuating that you in fact want to do it without reading
codes and how to books. Merely stating that it is necessary.

If you are a handy person, who read books on residential electricity,
I would be greatly surprised if you were incapable of doing a great
electrical job on most everything.

i



I completely agree!

Ignoramus13229 wrote:
My understanding is that insurance MAY not cover any damage due to
un-permitted work. Say you install an electrical circuit improperly,
and it starts a fire. Then, perhaps coverage would be denied. Another
example, say you install an electrical circuit improperly, and your
drunk guest falls asleep with a cigarette and starts a fire. You would
be covered.

Among all my friends who do electrical work around their homes, I do
not know anyone who would ever get permits for simple eletrical work.

i

We just got finished with a house that the homeowner was redoing his
own roof. No permit, nothing. He tore off the roof, felt and
flashing down to the decking, THEN called for materials to be delivered!

Five days of rain later, the materials were delivered to the
jobsite, but not before 68,000 bucks worth of damage to the interior
of the house.

Like I said, we just finished up,... and picked up our final check
from his insurance company, minus his 2500.00 deductable which he
paid. I have done many jobs like this and have never seen an
insurance adjuster flinch at paying a claim. We had a job where a
house burned down due to an overloaded outlet. (12 items plugged
into a dual receptacle, including a microwave) The adjuster
listened to the homeowner talk about the cause of the fire and how
he had learned a valuable lesson, etc. Insurance paid for
everything except the deductable.

Shall I go on?

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

"Oh_Jeeze" wrote in message

Having a masters degree means that I understand electricity, electric,
and electronic components many orders of magnitude better than most
people. I know it's easy for someone who does not understand the
engineering process or what engineers do to become easily confused.


No, I'm not confused at all. I have engineers in the family, I deal with
lots of engineers. Some are geniuses, some are twits. Happens in every
walk of life. I don't get impressed by the wall paper but by your
accomplishments. You only told me about the wall paper you have.


Maybe if I were a wet eared engineer fresh out of college with
no practical experience would I not have the ability to connect a
circuit.

Now why do you denigrate recent graduates? Some have lots of practical
experience and can run rings around the paper hangers.


But hey, as for your other advice, thanks for the repeating
everything "zxcvbob" pointed out.

As an engineer with a masters pedigree, you must know how news servers work.
You probably know that I did not see his post before I sent mine. Anyway,
I'm glad I could reinforce what he had to say. Engineers like lots of
redundancy.

Hey, you never told us what railroad?????

On 9 Jan 2005 20:43:19 -0800, "Oh_Jeeze"
wrote:

Here's a silly question... so why would you pay for a permit and/or
inspector to inspect work you do inside your home? Before someone
scolds me keep this in mind, I am a first time homeowner and I have
only been living in my home for a few months. What types of things
require permits or inspectors? I recently painted some walls, replaced
a toilet, and added a light fixture outside my garage. I have other
things on my agenda for the next few years and I can't see why I would
pay someone to inspect my work. With regards to plumbing, if you don't
do it right you get immediate notification in the form of a leak. The
electrical stuff seems pretty trivial to me since I am an electrical
engineer with a masters degree. Although I must admit to having to
look up the correct wire gauge for the spotlight I added outside my
garage. A follow up question would be what if the previous owner did
something without getting a permit or getting the work inspected?
Would I be responsible for paying for those things?

Locally, replacing fixtures, as in your toilet or lamp doesn't require
a permit. Relocating a pipe or outlet would. But unless you live
here, whatever's required here doesn't matter to you.

Jeff

In article , ignoramus5713
@NOSPAM.5713.invalid says...


I have to wonder though, how come it burned down and why did the
circuit breaker not do its job.

Various possibilities.

Hook a lot of items up to a light-duty extension cord and the cord
itself can overheat even though the circuit isn't up to the breaker's
capacity.

Have a lot of items plugged into a multi-outlet tap and the weight of
the cords can pull it part-way out of the wall, reducing the size of the
connection and making the outlet overheat.

Could just be a cheap breaker panel with breakers that don't trip when
they should. Do a google search on breakers and you'll find references
to brands known to have that problem -- I've seen a 15A breaker not trip
when carrying more than 20A load.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Books for Bicycle Mechanics and Tinkerers:
http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/bikebooks.html

wrote:


Here's a silly question... so why would you pay for a permit and/or
inspector to inspect work you do inside your home? Before someone


Largely because the people with the guns and badges say you
have to do it.

The time they start giving those guy badges, I'm running to
the hills for safety. Some of the inspectors are very nice
and knowledable, but some are downright dumb ****s. Oops! I
thought you meant the cops.

Ignoramus5713 wrote:
On 10 Jan 2005 23:12:39 GMT, HaHaHa wrote:

There are certian tell-tale signs which can indicate very easily that a
handy-homeowner or a hack or a professional did some added work.


Would you give some examples of such signs?

i

Yeah, like a wall being more than 3/4" off vertical from top
to bottom. Wait, that was my new carefully built, with
permits, and inspected house built by professionals.
Didn't notice it until I installed a wood stove and dropped
a plumbob for the chimney.

My point is that poorly done doesn't mean that a
non-professional, unlicensed person did it. If you do
careful neat work that is correct, the inspector might
notice but will likely figure it was done by a professional.

I have several friend that have receive highly complimentary
statements from inspectors on their electrical, plumbing, or
other work, indicating that it was far above the standards
done by professionals. Not unusual or unexpected if you
work carefully as the usual trade person doesn't have the
time to be exceptionally careful.

Oh, yeah, we looked for about 2 months and finally selected
this house as the best location and construction from what
we had visited. After 6 months and climbing up on the roof
to install the chimney for that wood stove, I finally notice
that there was no cap on a section of the roof. No water
problem because the shingles were overlapped, but still.
One call and the roofer sent is son out immediately to fix
it. Seems there was some mix up each (father and son)
thought the other had finished the cap. I may have made
some visual errors (no one notices) when I reroofed years
later, but it doesn't leak and I sure didn't leave the cap off.

Oh, I forgot the pieces of wood left in the furnace plenum,
because somebody was too lazy to pull them out after another
stupid person dropped them in there. Lots of stories of
screw ups in other houses.

Nope, you won't have a bit a problem if you are halfway neat
and follow what responsible people at your local supply
houses tell you.

In article , Joshua Putnam wrote:
In article , ignoramus5713
@NOSPAM.5713.invalid says...


I have to wonder though, how come it burned down and why did the
circuit breaker not do its job.

Various possibilities.

Hook a lot of items up to a light-duty extension cord and the cord
itself can overheat even though the circuit isn't up to the breaker's
capacity.

The safety department at IBM has a show-and-tell every year in the Research
division. They had disassembled an outlet strip with a massive power cord
to show the inside. Each outlet was connected to the previous one with
#22 wire. Needless to say, the outlet strip was half melted. The power
cord was #14 and had a 15 amp circuit breaker on the strip.

"If you see one of these outlet strips in a lab, throw it away immediately
and come get a replacement from the stock room." The new ones are bright
yellow and use #12 wire throughout.

They also ding you if they find any outlet strip being used for more than
a few weeks. You're supposed to call maintenance and have real outlets
installed. Extension cords are not permitted at all.


--
"De inimico non loquaris sed cogites."

In many states home seller's are obligated to reveal to potential buyers
any problems or substandard issues with the house. Work done without
permits would be among the things that must be revealed.

Oh_Jeeze wrote:
Here's a silly question... so why would you pay for a permit and/or
inspector to inspect work you do inside your home? Before someone
scolds me keep this in mind, I am a first time homeowner and I have
only been living in my home for a few months. What types of things
require permits or inspectors? I recently painted some walls, replaced
a toilet, and added a light fixture outside my garage. I have other
things on my agenda for the next few years and I can't see why I would
pay someone to inspect my work. With regards to plumbing, if you don't
do it right you get immediate notification in the form of a leak. The
electrical stuff seems pretty trivial to me since I am an electrical
engineer with a masters degree. Although I must admit to having to
look up the correct wire gauge for the spotlight I added outside my
garage. A follow up question would be what if the previous owner did
something without getting a permit or getting the work inspected?
Would I be responsible for paying for those things?

Really, like what kind of work? Changing a light fixture? Replacing a
door? A new sink? Everywhere I know work of that type can be done by
the homeowner without a permit or inspection. If permits were required
for most home work, there wouldn't be enough inspectors to handle it.

Certainly you do need permits for improvements that are structural, a
new septic system, well, etc, but I don't think the new homeowner was
contemplating that level of work.

I found this thread quite interesting. In 2 different cities, I have
had
numerous cases where inspectors have signed off on improperly
done work.

My 2 cents: NEVER count on a city inspector saving you from
a bad contractor. The inspector is there for the city's benefit,
not yours.

Thanks guys, I wouldn't put anything past the insurance companies.
Maybe they will pay, maybe they won't but I'm not really willing to
take the chance. It never hurts to have a second pair of eyes.
However, I wonder how someone would be able to tell the difference
between a newly installed charcoaled electrical addition and an old
charcoaled electrical addition. They would have to send a super
inspector at the time I bought the house to check if every wire burried
behind drywall is up to code. My insurance company basically sent
someone over to check that the property really exsisted and to check
the distance to the nearest fire hydrant.


Recently Romex wire changed the sheath color depending on the wire
gauge. So if you were in a ten year old house full of standard ol'
white Romex cables and one pretty new yellow romex cable burned down
the house they have a clue where to start looking. Also if they find
anything you did without permit it sets precedent that you do
electrical work in your home and don't necessarily get a permit. I've
seen an insurance company use this logic in court on a case where a
large plant was destroyed by fire.

Even with that said I have never heard a verifiable case of homeowners
insurance denying coverage for even a stupid mistake.

Steve B.

Steve B. wrote:
Thanks guys, I wouldn't put anything past the insurance companies.
Maybe they will pay, maybe they won't but I'm not really willing to
take the chance. It never hurts to have a second pair of eyes.
However, I wonder how someone would be able to tell the difference
between a newly installed charcoaled electrical addition and an old
charcoaled electrical addition. They would have to send a super
inspector at the time I bought the house to check if every wire burried
behind drywall is up to code. My insurance company basically sent
someone over to check that the property really exsisted and to check
the distance to the nearest fire hydrant.



Recently Romex wire changed the sheath color depending on the wire
gauge. So if you were in a ten year old house full of standard ol'
white Romex cables and one pretty new yellow romex cable burned down
the house they have a clue where to start looking. Also if they find
anything you did without permit it sets precedent that you do
electrical work in your home and don't necessarily get a permit. I've
seen an insurance company use this logic in court on a case where a
large plant was destroyed by fire.

Even with that said I have never heard a verifiable case of homeowners
insurance denying coverage for even a stupid mistake.

Steve B.

I am a firefighter and during the mid eighties I was called to testify
in just such a case. I wish I could remember the name of the insurance
company and the exact date but alas I cannot. It was admittedly an
extreme example but the homeowner had refinished his basement and for
his electrical outlets he had used one inch deep communications boxes
and the replacement only two wire outlets. The fire actually originated
at a box were a freezer was plugged in using an adapter. The basement
was finished with paneling fastened directly to the studs which made a
very fast and very hot fire. In spite of those conditions we made a dam
good stop and held the fire to the basement level. The only damage
above other than some minor smoke was from the process of searching for
hidden fire by opening up the walls behind the base boards to check for
extension. The basement and contents were a total loss and much of the
first floor's structural support had to be rebuilt. The home owners
problems with his insurance carrier began with their review of the fire
cause and origin report from the county fire marshal's office. They
then sent an investigator of their own and declined the claim. The
insurance company called several firefighters to testify but we never
got to do so. The judge refused to let it go to trial once the
plaintiff home owner admitted to having done the electrical work without
a permit and his attorney could not offer an alternative explanation of
the cause of the fire. The judge said that it was a legal absurdity to
attempt to collect an insurance award for the consequences of your own
unlawful act. I lost a mornings work but I got a new uniform out of the
deal.
--
Tom H

On 9 Jan 2005 20:43:19 -0800, "Oh_Jeeze"
wrote:

Here's a silly question... so why would you pay for a permit and/or
inspector to inspect work you do inside your home? Before someone
scolds me keep this in mind, I am a first time homeowner and I have
only been living in my home for a few months. What types of things
require permits or inspectors? I recently painted some walls, replaced
a toilet, and added a light fixture outside my garage. I have other
things on my agenda for the next few years and I can't see why I would
pay someone to inspect my work. With regards to plumbing, if you don't
do it right you get immediate notification in the form of a leak. The
electrical stuff seems pretty trivial to me since I am an electrical
engineer with a masters degree. Although I must admit to having to
look up the correct wire gauge for the spotlight I added outside my
garage. A follow up question would be what if the previous owner did
something without getting a permit or getting the work inspected?
Would I be responsible for paying for those things?


Permits vary greatly depending where you live. Check your local laws.
If you put up a shed or install a fence without a permit, the city may
fine you and make you take it down. If something was added
incorrectly and you attempt to sell the house, it might become an
issue and stop or delay the sale process. Use common sense and think
safety. A good home repair manual will clue you in on what things
may require a permit.

wrote:
I found this thread quite interesting. In 2 different cities, I have
had
numerous cases where inspectors have signed off on improperly
done work.

My 2 cents: NEVER count on a city inspector saving you from
a bad contractor. The inspector is there for the city's benefit,
not yours.

That seems to be correct. I posted this same question to some people
that I work with at lunch and the consensus was that an inspector's
signature does not guarantee that the work is done correctly regardless
of whether it was done by a contractor or a novice.

in my location, depends mostly on the amount being spent on any remodel
activity.


"Oh_Jeeze" wrote in message
oups.com...
Here's a silly question... so why would you pay for a permit and/or
inspector to inspect work you do inside your home? Before someone
scolds me keep this in mind, I am a first time homeowner and I have
only been living in my home for a few months. What types of things
require permits or inspectors? I recently painted some walls, replaced
a toilet, and added a light fixture outside my garage. I have other
things on my agenda for the next few years and I can't see why I would
pay someone to inspect my work. With regards to plumbing, if you don't
do it right you get immediate notification in the form of a leak. The
electrical stuff seems pretty trivial to me since I am an electrical
engineer with a masters degree. Although I must admit to having to
look up the correct wire gauge for the spotlight I added outside my
garage. A follow up question would be what if the previous owner did
something without getting a permit or getting the work inspected?
Would I be responsible for paying for those things?

Where I live, one can do any plumbing and electrical without permits (may
require inspection if reconnection of service is needed) for ones own
proerty if residential.One has to be a licensed electrician to do work as
the primary person doing the work for others or any commercial work. Still
no permit required unless reconnection of service (or some major remodels,
but that is covered under building permits)

I have know other locations in other states requireing a licensed
electrician to do the work if to be covered under insurance.


"Greg O" wrote in message
...

"Oh_Jeeze" wrote in message
oups.com...
Here's a silly question... so why would you pay for a permit and/or
inspector to inspect work you do inside your home?

Most areas do not need permits to paint, change a light fixture, replace a
toilet, that type of thing.
Any changes or additions to wiring, or plumbing probably need a permit.
Any
stuctural work to the home will most likely need a permit. New windows,
roof, furnace in our area need a permit.

It is kind of a mixed blessing. If you do a upgrade to your house that
needs
a permit, and you do, the liability falls to the inspections office when
they sigh off and ok the work. If you don't get and inspection, and your
house burns down from a poor wiring job, or bad furnace install, good luck
collecting insurance! The liability just fell on you!
Many fear that it tips of the city to raise your taxes, it may. I also
know
of many homes that have had major remodels, additions put on, and the city
tax dept never paid any attention!
Pull a permit, CYA!
Greg

As you can see, there are as many answers as there are locations. Each
governmental entity decides for itself what work needs to be permitted.

I'm not antagonistic about our local building department. Most of their
people know what they are doing, and all of them know more than I do. I
once asked them just when a permit was necessary, and they admitted it
was not clear. Decorating doesn't require a permit; changing electrical
fixtures doesn't; replacing a gas water heater does; replacing a gas
stove or drier doesn't. If I have a question as to whether a permit is
needed, I call and ask. Once I added some outlets, which required a
permit. When they came out for final inspection, he said I had to put
bushings at the ends of the conduit; I would have if I knew to, but I
didn't, so I had to go back and put in bushings. When I did that, I put
them into the installations that were here when I bought the house, too,
as apparently they weren't required when that work was done. My
electrical is grounded to the water supply, so the inspector checked to
see if there was a jumper across the water meter (there was, but only
because I had recently read about it in the newspaper and put it in
myself). When I pointed that out, the inspector said that requirement
was fairly new, but he always checked it even when the work was on a
different part of the electrical system.

Interestingly, in my town, some tradesmen can become certified as
self-inspectors, and when you use one of them, they don't have to get a
permit, nor is there an inspection, but somehow the building department
has come to an agreement that those registered tradesmen will meet code
on everything they do.

In any event, permits here are inexpensive, and I take some comfort in
knowing that someone who knows more than me is giving me advice.

Incidentally, I was a lawyer until I retired, and those people talking
about insurance companies denying claims for damages caused by
unpermitted work are absolutely correct. They are not in business to
give away money.

Oh_Jeeze wrote:
Here's a silly question... so why would you pay for a permit and/or
inspector to inspect work you do inside your home? Before someone
scolds me keep this in mind, I am a first time homeowner and I have
only been living in my home for a few months. What types of things
require permits or inspectors? I recently painted some walls, replaced
a toilet, and added a light fixture outside my garage. I have other
things on my agenda for the next few years and I can't see why I would
pay someone to inspect my work. With regards to plumbing, if you don't
do it right you get immediate notification in the form of a leak. The
electrical stuff seems pretty trivial to me since I am an electrical
engineer with a masters degree. Although I must admit to having to
look up the correct wire gauge for the spotlight I added outside my
garage. A follow up question would be what if the previous owner did
something without getting a permit or getting the work inspected?
Would I be responsible for paying for those things?


--
SPAMBLOCK NOTICE! To reply to me, delete the h from apkh.net, if it is
there.