If the clutch engages late in the pedal uplift cycle, if I want the clutch
to engage sooner, do I move the master cylinder rod locknut stop point
toward the firewall, or toward the driver's foot?

On 11/11/2017 08:46 AM, harry newton wrote:
If the clutch engages late in the pedal uplift cycle, if I want the clutch
to engage sooner, do I move the master cylinder rod locknut stop point
toward the firewall, or toward the driver's foot?

How tall is the driver?

replying to harry newton, Iggy wrote:
Yes or whichever way works, there are different setups. But, you need to leave
some slack so the pressure plate can release, so you don't burn through the
clutch very prematurely. However, if everything was fine up until recently
then you need a clutch-job as your pressure plate's springs are fatigued and
it's nothing to do with cable stretch.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...n-1150768-.htm

On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 08:51:43 -0500, Gary wrote:

On 11/11/2017 08:46 AM, harry newton wrote:
If the clutch engages late in the pedal uplift cycle, if I want the clutch
to engage sooner, do I move the master cylinder rod locknut stop point
toward the firewall, or toward the driver's foot?

How tall is the driver?


Neither. The adjustment needs to be made at the slave cyl end - if
adjustment is even possible. Most current vehicles are "self
adjusting" - in which case you need a new clutch.

On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 15:44:07 GMT, Iggy
m wrote:

replying to harry newton, Iggy wrote:
Yes or whichever way works, there are different setups. But, you need to leave
some slack so the pressure plate can release, so you don't burn through the
clutch very prematurely. However, if everything was fine up until recently
then you need a clutch-job as your pressure plate's springs are fatigued and
it's nothing to do with cable stretch.


There goes Iggy again -- if there is a "master cyl" there IS NO CABLE
- and it's not weak clutch springs, it's a worn out clutch disk.

He who is Clare Snyder said on Sat, 11 Nov 2017 15:19:54 -0500:

If the clutch engages late in the pedal uplift cycle, if I want the clutch
to engage sooner, do I move the master cylinder rod locknut stop point
toward the firewall, or toward the driver's foot?

How tall is the driver?


Neither. The adjustment needs to be made at the slave cyl end - if
adjustment is even possible. Most current vehicles are "self
adjusting" - in which case you need a new clutch.

Thanks for your advice, which I appreciate, and where I relize I provided
no pictures so everyone had to guess, which won't help so here are some
photos.

Here is the clutch slave cylinder:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/8.jpg

Here is a picture of the only adjustment there is in the clutch mechanism:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/5.jpg

To get rid of a spongy feel, I rebuilt the slave cylinder:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/4.jpg

And I rebuilt the clutch master cylinder:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/1.jpg

And then I bench bled both:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/2.jpg

Using high quality DOT 4 fluid:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/3.jpg

But the clutch now suddenly engages late in the pedal uplift cycle.

There is nothing that can be adjusted at the slave cylinder.

The only adjustment is the bolt that attaches the clutch pedal to the
clutch master cylinder.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/6.jpg

The only adjustment there is to twist the rod and lock it in place with the
locknut.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/7.jpg

But which way engages the clutch sooner?

On 11/11/2017 2:54 PM, harry newton wrote:
He who is Clare Snyder said on Sat, 11 Nov 2017 15:19:54 -0500:

If the clutch engages late in the pedal uplift cycle, if I want the
clutch
to engage sooner, do I move the master cylinder rod locknut stop point
toward the firewall, or toward the driver's foot?

How tall is the driver?


*Neither. The adjustment* needs to be made at the slave cyl end - if
adjustment is even possible.* Most current vehicles are "self
adjusting" - in which case you need a new clutch.

Thanks for your advice, which I appreciate, and where I relize I provided
no pictures so everyone had to guess, which won't help so here are some
photos.

Here is the clutch slave cylinder:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/8.jpg

Here is a picture of the only adjustment there is in the clutch
mechanism:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/5.jpg

To get rid of a spongy feel, I rebuilt the slave cylinder:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/4.jpg

And I rebuilt the clutch master cylinder:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/1.jpg

And then I bench bled both:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/2.jpg

Using high quality DOT 4 fluid:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/3.jpg

But the clutch now suddenly engages late in the pedal uplift cycle.

There is nothing that can be adjusted at the slave cylinder.
The only adjustment is the bolt that attaches the clutch pedal to the
clutch master cylinder.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/6.jpg

The only adjustment there is to twist the rod and lock it in place
with the
locknut.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/7.jpg

But which way engages the clutch sooner?

* Shorten the rod . BUT as Clare said , some are self-adjusting and it
may come right back to where you are now . I had an 89 Chevy p/u that
never really released the clutch properly , even after slave/master
replacement . I figure the arm was bent inside the bell housing or
something . FWIW I discovered with that truck that the best way to get
ALL the bubbles out of the system was to pump fluid in thru the slave
bleed port . Pushes them up to the master , a direction they want to go
anyway .

* --

* Snag

On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 20:54:19 +0000 (UTC), harry newton
wrote:

He who is Clare Snyder said on Sat, 11 Nov 2017 15:19:54 -0500:

If the clutch engages late in the pedal uplift cycle, if I want the clutch
to engage sooner, do I move the master cylinder rod locknut stop point
toward the firewall, or toward the driver's foot?

How tall is the driver?


Neither. The adjustment needs to be made at the slave cyl end - if
adjustment is even possible. Most current vehicles are "self
adjusting" - in which case you need a new clutch.

Thanks for your advice, which I appreciate, and where I relize I provided
no pictures so everyone had to guess, which won't help so here are some
photos.

Here is the clutch slave cylinder:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/8.jpg

Here is a picture of the only adjustment there is in the clutch mechanism:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/5.jpg

To get rid of a spongy feel, I rebuilt the slave cylinder:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/4.jpg

And I rebuilt the clutch master cylinder:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/1.jpg

And then I bench bled both:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/2.jpg

Using high quality DOT 4 fluid:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/3.jpg

But the clutch now suddenly engages late in the pedal uplift cycle.

There is nothing that can be adjusted at the slave cylinder.

The only adjustment is the bolt that attaches the clutch pedal to the
clutch master cylinder.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/6.jpg

The only adjustment there is to twist the rod and lock it in place with the
locknut.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/7.jpg

But which way engages the clutch sooner?


Like I said.
Youhave a "self adjusting" hydraulic clutch. There IS NO height
adjustment. The pedal adjustment is toi be set so there is a small
clearance between the push-rod and the push rod seat of the M/C.
"shortening" the push rod will drop the pedal but will have no effect
on the clutch engagement.Your clutch is worn out

(retired auto mechanic speaking)

replying to Clare Snyder, Iggy wrote:
Wow, not at all correct! But, that's all I get from you any which way. By the
way, clutch disks are meant to be ground all of the way down and more with no
driver perception by a working-properly pressure plate.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...n-1150768-.htm

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 00:14:02 GMT, Iggy
m wrote:

replying to Clare Snyder, Iggy wrote:
Wow, not at all correct! But, that's all I get from you any which way. By the
way, clutch disks are meant to be ground all of the way down and more with no
driver perception by a working-properly pressure plate.
Believe what you want. I've been a mechanic for decades, and
replaced a LOT of clutches on vehicles from Minis to Loadstars, and
small tractors to large loaders. The first symptom of a failing clutch
is engaging close to the top. The second symtom is not having enough
"up travel" to engage. When the pedal gets too high on any vehicle
with a non-adjustable (aka "self adjusting") hydraulic linkage, it's
clutch time - pure and simple.

On 11/11/2017 7:33 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 00:14:02 GMT, Iggy
m wrote:

replying to Clare Snyder, Iggy wrote:
Wow, not at all correct! But, that's all I get from you any which way. By the
way, clutch disks are meant to be ground all of the way down and more with no
driver perception by a working-properly pressure plate.
Believe what you want. I've been a mechanic for decades, and
replaced a LOT of clutches on vehicles from Minis to Loadstars, and
small tractors to large loaders. The first symptom of a failing clutch
is engaging close to the top. The second symptom is not having enough
"up travel" to engage. When the pedal gets too high on any vehicle
with a non-adjustable (aka "self adjusting") hydraulic linkage, it's
clutch time - pure and simple.


Are you saying that with only 50 years experience working on cars you
know more than Iggy? Anyone that hangs sheetrock horizontally would be
challenged adjusting a clutch.

replying to Clare Snyder, Iggy wrote:
Yes, you agreed with my conclusion that he needed a clutch-job and no fooling
around with the pedal. And FYI, Volvo, Ford, Honda, etc. all had cables as
well as both cylinders at some time. I tried to cover all bases with no year,
make, model, pictures nor experience level known. But, to say the clutch isn't
a system and you'd only pop in a new clutch disk is ridiculous, foolish and
professionally irresponsible.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...n-1150768-.htm

He who is Clare Snyder said on Sat, 11 Nov 2017 17:36:46 -0500:

The only adjustment there is to twist the rod and lock it in place with the
locknut.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/7.jpg

But which way engages the clutch sooner?

Like I said.
Youhave a "self adjusting" hydraulic clutch.

Thanks. I admit. I'm confused. I obviously need to read up on clutches
because I did not realize that my clutch is a self-adjusting clutch.

And, to tell you the truth, honestly, I understand your words, but I don't
understand the adjustment at all.

Now I'm more confused than ever, because I don't see the difference between
a "self adjusting clutch" and a "not adjusting clutch".

There IS NO height adjustment.

I understand your words, but I don't understand (yet), why they bother with
a pedal adjustment then.

I hear what you're saying below though, and I'm trying to faithfully figure
out why you adjust what you adjust.

Here is a picture of what you're saying, I think, the adjustment is for:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/12/pushrod.jpg

The pedal adjustment is to be set so there is a small
clearance between the push-rod and the push rod seat of the M/C.

Hmmm.... how do we MEASURE what it should be when we're upside down in the
footwell?

What do we measure?

"shortening" the push rod will drop the pedal but will have no effect
on the clutch engagement.Your clutch is worn out

I'm not at all disagreeing since I clearly don't know what I'm doing.
I'm also clear that I'm confused because I _thought_ the one adjustment
there is was for when the clutch engages.

If that one adjustment is only for the master cylinder pushrod clearance,
what's the implication if it's adjusted wrong versus right?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/12/pushrod.jpg

He who is Iggy said on Sun, 12 Nov 2017 03:44:05 GMT:

Yes, you agreed with my conclusion that he needed a clutch-job and no fooling
around with the pedal. And FYI, Volvo, Ford, Honda, etc. all had cables as
well as both cylinders at some time. I tried to cover all bases with no year,
make, model, pictures nor experience level known. But, to say the clutch isn't
a system and you'd only pop in a new clutch disk is ridiculous, foolish and
professionally irresponsible.

Since there is this discussion which I didn't understand at first, I just
now did some looking up on this cable things where it seems there are two
completely different clutch systems.
1. mechanical
2. hydraulic
https://mechanics.stackexchange.com/questions/1799/difference-between-mechanical-and-hydraulic-clutches#1818

Where it says, with respect to adjusting:
"Mechanical clutches have a cable for actuation, and typically
need adjusting throughout the life of the clutch. Hydraulically
actuated clutches tend to be self-adjusting"

He who is Clare Snyder said on Sat, 11 Nov 2017 19:33:08 -0500:

The first symptom of a failing clutch
is engaging close to the top. The second symtom is not having enough
"up travel" to engage. When the pedal gets too high on any vehicle
with a non-adjustable (aka "self adjusting") hydraulic linkage, it's
clutch time - pure and simple.

I agree with Clare that there are no wires in this setup that I can see.

Following what I can visually see, there is just the clutch pedal, the
pedal-to-master-cylinder adjustable pushrod, then the clutch master
cylinder, and then the slave cylinder, and then a lever sticking out of the
transmission.

I'm listening to this conversation with rapt attention though, because I
had a spongy pedal which sometimes had no back force until I pumped the
pedal, which was solved by rebuilding both the clutch master cylinder and
the clutch slave cylinder.

My inspection of the slave cylinder seal condition lends me to believe that
my original problem may have been that fluid was leaking past the seals,
since the fluid level in the clutch master cylinder was stable (but blacker
than black).

It's only after solving the spongy pedal that I noticed that the clutch is
engaging at almost the last inch or two of the pedal return cycle.

Obviously I thought this was an adjustment problem, which Clare tells me it
is not.

I don't know the history of this car so I can't assume anything about the
clutch other than what I can measure or feel.

The clutch engages late, but it engages without slipping (I think).
At least if it's slipping, I'm not noticing that it's slipping.

I'm not sure what do to, but I guess only a visual inspection will tell for
sure, is that my only option?

He who is harry newton said on Sun, 12 Nov 2017 05:49:00 +0000 (UTC):

Following what I can visually see, there is just the clutch pedal, the
pedal-to-master-cylinder adjustable pushrod, then the clutch master
cylinder, and then the slave cylinder, and then a lever sticking out of the
transmission.

I just watched this video, which explains what happens after that lever.
https://youtu.be/FfjGohWy-OU?t=207

He who is harry newton said on Sun, 12 Nov 2017 05:23:21 +0000 (UTC):

I hear what you're saying below though, and I'm trying to faithfully figure
out why you adjust what you adjust.

I google around based on your hints, where I think you might be trying to
tell me about what this guy calls "end play" here.
https://youtu.be/oggi9_LJ2n8?t=65

replying to harry newton, Iggy wrote:
Yep, Clare was right that you don't have a cable and I, of course, agree after
receiving the pictures. But, we differ on what a Clutch-Job entails, which we
both agree should remedy your now single problem. I feel any Clutch-Job should
include a complete Clutch Set and not just the Clutch Disc.

In light of this being a used car you've recently acquired, I'd strongly
suggest that you get a Professional Clutch-Job performed. As, it requires
proper disassembly, experience, handling and installation. They may find your
fork, flywheel, transmission shaft and/or a seal need attention.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...n-1150768-.htm

On 11/11/17 7:46 AM, harry newton wrote:
If the clutch engages late in the pedal uplift cycle, if I want the clutch
to engage sooner, do I move the master cylinder rod locknut stop point
toward the firewall, or toward the driver's foot?

Why not try adjusting it to see what happens? Mark the nut and rod
with a Sharpie or a paint marker. You'll be able to keep track of how much
you've changed things and will be able to return them to their original
position.

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 05:23:21 +0000 (UTC), harry newton
wrote:

He who is Clare Snyder said on Sat, 11 Nov 2017 17:36:46 -0500:

The only adjustment there is to twist the rod and lock it in place with the
locknut.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/11/7.jpg

But which way engages the clutch sooner?

Like I said.
Youhave a "self adjusting" hydraulic clutch.

Thanks. I admit. I'm confused. I obviously need to read up on clutches
because I did not realize that my clutch is a self-adjusting clutch.

And, to tell you the truth, honestly, I understand your words, but I don't
understand the adjustment at all.

Now I'm more confused than ever, because I don't see the difference between
a "self adjusting clutch" and a "not adjusting clutch".

No difference. There is no manual adjustment. Period

There IS NO height adjustment.

I understand your words, but I don't understand (yet), why they bother with
a pedal adjustment then.
That adjustment is for initial setup so the cyl returns to it's fully
returned position, so the compensating ports in the master cyl are not
covered by the "cup" or "seal" on the piston with your foot off the
clutch.

I hear what you're saying below though, and I'm trying to faithfully figure
out why you adjust what you adjust.

Here is a picture of what you're saying, I think, the adjustment is for:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/12/pushrod.jpg

The pedal adjustment is to be set so there is a small
clearance between the push-rod and the push rod seat of the M/C.

Hmmm.... how do we MEASURE what it should be when we're upside down in the
footwell?

What do we measure?

Tou just wiggle the rod. It should be free of the cyl piston
"socket". On manycars there is a "return stop" that adjusts the hight
of the un-depressed pedal by limiting how high the return spring can
pull the pedal. On some cars it is incorporated with the "clutch
safety" starter inhibit switch, which also chuts off cruise control
when you step oin the clutch.

If the clutch return stop is adjusted, the push rod must also be
adjusted to maintain that small clearance between the rod and the M/C

"shortening" the push rod will drop the pedal but will have no effect
on the clutch engagement.Your clutch is worn out

I'm not at all disagreeing since I clearly don't know what I'm doing.
I'm also clear that I'm confused because I _thought_ the one adjustment
there is was for when the clutch engages.

If that one adjustment is only for the master cylinder pushrod clearance,
what's the implication if it's adjusted wrong versus right?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/12/pushrod.jpg

Too loose and the rod will fall out of the cyl, and you will alsp
loose "stroke" on the cyl - meaning you may not be able to fully
release the clutch. Too little clearance (negative clearance, or
preload) prevents the slave cyl from fully returning, because the
fluid pressure in the system is never released. This can cause the
release bearing to wear out and can also, in severe cases, prevent the
clutch from fully engaging

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 07:03:28 +0000 (UTC), harry newton
wrote:

He who is harry newton said on Sun, 12 Nov 2017 05:23:21 +0000 (UTC):

I hear what you're saying below though, and I'm trying to faithfully figure
out why you adjust what you adjust.

I google around based on your hints, where I think you might be trying to
tell me about what this guy calls "end play" here.
https://youtu.be/oggi9_LJ2n8?t=65
Yes, it can be called end blay

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 03:44:05 GMT, Iggy
m wrote:

replying to Clare Snyder, Iggy wrote:
Yes, you agreed with my conclusion that he needed a clutch-job and no fooling
around with the pedal. And FYI, Volvo, Ford, Honda, etc. all had cables as
well as both cylinders at some time. I tried to cover all bases with no year,
make, model, pictures nor experience level known. But, to say the clutch isn't
a system and you'd only pop in a new clutch disk is ridiculous, foolish and
professionally irresponsible.
Listen idiot - where did I say I'd only installa disk????????
I said it is the wear on the disk - NOT the pressure plate or
springs, that causes the release point of the clutch th "climb" -
requiring the replacement of the clutch. Matched clutch sts are
aboiut the only way the average customer will be able to buy the
clutch parts required. Sure, you can go to a speed shop and buy all
the separate bits if you are bvuilding a custom clutch - but let's be
real - OK Iggy???

You REALLY want me on your case???????

If not, READ and UNDERSTAND what uis being said before spouting off
and looking TOTALLY stupid.

Man is born ignorant. Remaining ignorant is a conscious choice.

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 05:48:58 +0000 (UTC), harry newton
wrote:

He who is Iggy said on Sun, 12 Nov 2017 03:44:05 GMT:

Yes, you agreed with my conclusion that he needed a clutch-job and no fooling
around with the pedal. And FYI, Volvo, Ford, Honda, etc. all had cables as
well as both cylinders at some time. I tried to cover all bases with no year,
make, model, pictures nor experience level known. But, to say the clutch isn't
a system and you'd only pop in a new clutch disk is ridiculous, foolish and
professionally irresponsible.

Since there is this discussion which I didn't understand at first, I just
now did some looking up on this cable things where it seems there are two
completely different clutch systems.
1. mechanical
2. hydraulic
https://mechanics.stackexchange.com/questions/1799/difference-between-mechanical-and-hydraulic-clutches#1818

Where it says, with respect to adjusting:
"Mechanical clutches have a cable for actuation, and typically
need adjusting throughout the life of the clutch. Hydraulically
actuated clutches tend to be self-adjusting"
Correct.
And before cable actuated clutches were "full mechanical" linkages
with push rods and bell-vcranks and pivots and all manner of JiunJiu
that needed regular lubrication and ajustment to
keep the system from falling apart.

Keep searching and reading, and you will learn. Just don't be like
Iggy.

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 05:49:00 +0000 (UTC), harry newton
wrote:

He who is Clare Snyder said on Sat, 11 Nov 2017 19:33:08 -0500:

The first symptom of a failing clutch
is engaging close to the top. The second symtom is not having enough
"up travel" to engage. When the pedal gets too high on any vehicle
with a non-adjustable (aka "self adjusting") hydraulic linkage, it's
clutch time - pure and simple.

I agree with Clare that there are no wires in this setup that I can see.

Following what I can visually see, there is just the clutch pedal, the
pedal-to-master-cylinder adjustable pushrod, then the clutch master
cylinder, and then the slave cylinder, and then a lever sticking out of the
transmission.

I'm listening to this conversation with rapt attention though, because I
had a spongy pedal which sometimes had no back force until I pumped the
pedal, which was solved by rebuilding both the clutch master cylinder and
the clutch slave cylinder.

My inspection of the slave cylinder seal condition lends me to believe that
my original problem may have been that fluid was leaking past the seals,
since the fluid level in the clutch master cylinder was stable (but blacker
than black).

The fluid can "bypass" the pressure seal in the MASTER cyl, causing
poor actuation with no fluid loss with some master cyl designs.

The more common problem is air leaking in past the seal when the
piston is retracting, so air gets into the system, In many systems the
air can find it's way back up through the master cyl when the pedalis
pumped, temporarily restoring clutch action. Other times, pumping the
pedal simply compresses the air into a small enough bubble that the
bedal becomes significantly firmer - untill the pedal is released and
the pressure is drained off through the compensator port in the
master.

It's only after solving the spongy pedal that I noticed that the clutch is
engaging at almost the last inch or two of the pedal return cycle.

Obviously I thought this was an adjustment problem, which Clare tells me it
is not.

I don't know the history of this car so I can't assume anything about the
clutch other than what I can measure or feel.

The clutch engages late, but it engages without slipping (I think).
At least if it's slipping, I'm not noticing that it's slipping.

I'm not sure what do to, but I guess only a visual inspection will tell for
sure, is that my only option?


Put the car into high gear when moving at low speed and step on the
gas. If the clutch is totally worn out it will slip - the engine
willspeed up without speeding up the car. If this happens get it fixed
NOW. If it is not slipping, just take it easy on the clutch and it MAY
go a long time yet.

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 13:14:01 GMT, Iggy
m wrote:

replying to harry newton, Iggy wrote:
Yep, Clare was right that you don't have a cable and I, of course, agree after
receiving the pictures. But, we differ on what a Clutch-Job entails, which we
both agree should remedy your now single problem. I feel any Clutch-Job should
include a complete Clutch Set and not just the Clutch Disc.


And I NEVER said otherwize, Iggy. Don't put words in my mouth.

I did this professionally for half my life, including teaching the
trade at both secondary and post-secondary (trade) level.

In light of this being a used car you've recently acquired, I'd strongly
suggest that you get a Professional Clutch-Job performed. As, it requires
proper disassembly, experience, handling and installation. They may find your
fork, flywheel, transmission shaft and/or a seal need attention.

On a front wheel drive car, DEFINITELY not a job for a novice DIY.

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 07:41:13 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 11/11/17 7:46 AM, harry newton wrote:
If the clutch engages late in the pedal uplift cycle, if I want the clutch
to engage sooner, do I move the master cylinder rod locknut stop point
toward the firewall, or toward the driver's foot?

Why not try adjusting it to see what happens? Mark the nut and rod
with a Sharpie or a paint marker. You'll be able to keep track of how much
you've changed things and will be able to return them to their original
position.


Good experience - good way to do it - but won't solve the problem if
he has a problem.

He who is Dean Hoffman said on Sun, 12 Nov 2017 07:41:13 -0600:

Why not try adjusting it to see what happens? Mark the nut and rod
with a Sharpie or a paint marker. You'll be able to keep track of how much
you've changed things and will be able to return them to their original
position.

It's great advice where disconnecting the pedal from the pushrod isn't hard
at all, but, upside down with only one elbow getting in there and not a lot
of light either, is harder than you might think.

I have to say it took me about as long to connect that pushrod as it took
to bench bleed the clutch release cylinder, which was at least an hour
each.

Bench bleeding sounds so simple, but the hose falls off, the fluid leaks
all over, the jar tips over, etc.. Once you get the technique down, you can
bleed in a few minutes but it takes you an hour to get the technique right,
and you have to make your own plugs, which took me another hour because the
first two types leaked under pressure.

In perfect hindsight, I would recommend two things for bench bleeding that
I didn't have on hand.

1. A VERY SOFT clear hose on the end (last half inch), connected to a VERY
HARD clear hose in the middle (next five inches). Mine was too hard on the
end to seal against the bleed screw and too soft and slippery on where my
hand held it down to allow me to put force on it to make it seal.

2. Extra bleed screws (three would be perfect because the clutch release
cylinder needs two and the clutch master cylinder needs two but you already
have one).

Have any of you bench bled these things?
It's all technique ... which if you have wrong ... it's just a mess.
(ask me how I know this)

He who is Clare Snyder said on Sun, 12 Nov 2017 14:46:47 -0500:

And I NEVER said otherwize, Iggy. Don't put words in my mouth.

I did this professionally for half my life, including teaching the
trade at both secondary and post-secondary (trade) level.

I looked up what parts are needed to buy as a kit which seem to be the
clutch disk (which is sold by foot pounds) and the pressure plate, which is
the main part of the kit.

The other parts of the kit seem to be two bearings (pilot & release) and a
tool for putting the clutch in straight.

For tools, I can borrow the special jack and I already have assorted
circle-clip pliers and bearing pullers (where you always need a few
plier-like tools like that because of fit issues) and it looks like I also
need to pick up some 1/2-inch socket extension bars a few feet long for the
top transmission bolts.

On a front wheel drive car, DEFINITELY not a job for a novice DIY

Then I'm lucky because this is not a front wheel drive vehicle.

Google says the step are to jack the car, support the transmission,
disconnect anything hanging off it, unbolt it from the engine, check the
flywheel, pull the pressure plate, pull the clutch, pilot bearing, release
bearing, and then replace with new parts.

The only thing that is confusing to me is that one reference I found said
that you must add a "spacer" if you machine the flywheel, but I don't see
any parts called spacers.

Do you have more information what a flywheel spacer is?
How would you know if it's needed or how thick it should be if it is?

He who is harry newton said on Sun, 12 Nov 2017 05:48:58 +0000 (UTC):

https://mechanics.stackexchange.com/questions/1799/difference-between-mechanical-and-hydraulic-clutches#1818

Where it says, with respect to adjusting:
"Mechanical clutches have a cable for actuation, and typically
need adjusting throughout the life of the clutch. Hydraulically
actuated clutches tend to be self-adjusting"

Yet this says that Toyota hydraulic clutches are adjustable.
https://ctttransmissions.com/techtalk/a-common-toyota-truck-clutch-problem/

So it's confusing to me.

He who is Clare Snyder said on Sun, 12 Nov 2017 14:36:40 -0500:

The more common problem is air leaking in past the seal when the
piston is retracting, so air gets into the system, In many systems the
air can find it's way back up through the master cyl when the pedalis
pumped, temporarily restoring clutch action. Other times, pumping the
pedal simply compresses the air into a small enough bubble that the
bedal becomes significantly firmer - untill the pedal is released and
the pressure is drained off through the compensator port in the
master.

Along the lines of bleeding out air, it took me an hour, and maybe even two
hours to finally get the technique down for bench bleeding.

The first thing I realized I needed were three spare bleeder screws, where
I tried to make my own stops out of cork, but they were a mess, so I went
to wood, but it would have been best to have a set of spare bleeder screws!
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/12/a.jpg

Another mistake I made which cost me time was that the master cylinder
can't easily be bench bled with the open-top technique because it squirts
all over the place when you push the pushrod hard to bleed out the air.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/12/b.jpg

After about 10 or 15 minutes of that hassle, I opted to take the clutch
slave release cylinder bleed screw (which was the only one I had) to plug
up the hole (the wooden dowels were leaking too much) and then I just
looped a cut length of hose from that ancillary bleed screw back into the
reservoir.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/12/c.jpg

That was the only technique that worked, so if you know of a better way to
bench bleed a clutch master cylinder, please let me know because the videos
make is look a lot easier and a far less slippery mess than it was for me.

He who is Clare Snyder said on Sun, 12 Nov 2017 14:47:45 -0500:

Good experience - good way to do it - but won't solve the problem if
he has a problem.

One problem I did wrong, I just realized from looking at my pictures is
that I put the paper gasket back on wrong. What does that gasket do, and
would putting it on wrong cause a problem?

Here is a picture of the gasket in the original position:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/12/1.jpg

That paper gasket separates the clutch master cylinder from the firewall:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/12/2.jpg

The clutch master cylinder rebuilt kit didn't come with one so I was forced
to re-use the old one (which was torn a bit on one side):
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/12/3.jpg

I didn't take a picture of how I put it back but I put it back UNDER the
rubber boot and not OVER the rubber boot which I see now in the pictures is
how it should have been.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/12/4.jpg

What does that paper gasket do and will the fact I put it on under the
rubber boot instead of over the rubber boot cause a problem?

He who is Clare Snyder said on Sun, 12 Nov 2017 14:26:20 -0500:

Man is born ignorant. Remaining ignorant is a conscious choice.

I'm trying not to be ignorant so I would like to ask you a question about
the clutch slave cylinder bench bleeding process.

I admit I made an entire sloppy messy slippery mess of the whole process,
which easily took me an hour until I got a technique down right that worked
in a few minutes.

My first big mistake was in not knowing I needed extra bleed screws so I
had to make my own, none of which worked very well.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/12/x0.jpg

My second mistake was in not being able to fill the clutch slave release
cylinder with fluid because you it doesn't have a nice reservoir like the
clutch master cylinder has:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/12/x1c3a6f.jpg

My third mistake was that you have to somehow pre-fill the hose with fluid
without losing that fluid when you connect it because the clutch slave
cylinder just doesn't hold a lot of fluid.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/12/x2.jpg

Not pictured is the 15-minute washing of my eyes (clutch fluid burns, and
do not ask me how I know that) because I didn't wear goggles and the first
press of the clutch slave cylinder with a phillips screwdriver squirts far
more powerfully than you might think it does!

So I took another fifteen minutes to fashion a catch jar out of a Costco
gummibears vitamin jar where the hose was too short (because I had cut it
to make the clutch master cylinder loop prior):
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/12/x3.jpg

Where finally I got the job done by hooking the funnel on the end of the
hose and just holding that up in the air with one hand and then pushing in
the clutch slave cylinder piston with a phillips screwdriver (not pictured
because I was using both hands at the time).

All that effort was wasted, because it's not easy getting the clutch slave
cylinder back on the car without losing all that fluid anyway, so, in the
end, it was a total waste of time to bench bleed the clutch slave cylinder
because my technique was just all wrong.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/12/x4.jpg

So I have to ask for your advice on technique.

Given that bench bleeding the clutch master cylinder is a piece of cake
compared to bench bleeding the clutch slave cylinder, and given that
reinstalling the clutch master cylinder is also a piece of cake compared to
the clutch slave cylinder, and given that the clutch master cylinder
reservoir handles a lot of drips but not the clutch slave cylinder.......

Would you ever recommend bench bleeding the clutch slave cylinder?

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 22:15:00 +0000 (UTC), harry newton
wrote:

He who is Clare Snyder said on Sun, 12 Nov 2017 14:47:45 -0500:

Good experience - good way to do it - but won't solve the problem if
he has a problem.

One problem I did wrong, I just realized from looking at my pictures is
that I put the paper gasket back on wrong. What does that gasket do, and
would putting it on wrong cause a problem?

Here is a picture of the gasket in the original position:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/12/1.jpg

That paper gasket separates the clutch master cylinder from the firewall:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/12/2.jpg

The clutch master cylinder rebuilt kit didn't come with one so I was forced
to re-use the old one (which was torn a bit on one side):
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/12/3.jpg

I didn't take a picture of how I put it back but I put it back UNDER the
rubber boot and not OVER the rubber boot which I see now in the pictures is
how it should have been.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/12/4.jpg

What does that paper gasket do and will the fact I put it on under the
rubber boot instead of over the rubber boot cause a problem?


Noit critical- it is to seal the joint between the M/C and firewall
to keep dirt and water out of the cabin.

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 21:54:48 +0000 (UTC), harry newton
wrote:

He who is Dean Hoffman said on Sun, 12 Nov 2017 07:41:13 -0600:

Why not try adjusting it to see what happens? Mark the nut and rod
with a Sharpie or a paint marker. You'll be able to keep track of how much
you've changed things and will be able to return them to their original
position.

It's great advice where disconnecting the pedal from the pushrod isn't hard
at all, but, upside down with only one elbow getting in there and not a lot
of light either, is harder than you might think.

I have to say it took me about as long to connect that pushrod as it took
to bench bleed the clutch release cylinder, which was at least an hour
each.

Bench bleeding sounds so simple, but the hose falls off, the fluid leaks
all over, the jar tips over, etc.. Once you get the technique down, you can
bleed in a few minutes but it takes you an hour to get the technique right,
and you have to make your own plugs, which took me another hour because the
first two types leaked under pressure.

In perfect hindsight, I would recommend two things for bench bleeding that
I didn't have on hand.

1. A VERY SOFT clear hose on the end (last half inch), connected to a VERY
HARD clear hose in the middle (next five inches). Mine was too hard on the
end to seal against the bleed screw and too soft and slippery on where my
hand held it down to allow me to put force on it to make it seal.

2. Extra bleed screws (three would be perfect because the clutch release
cylinder needs two and the clutch master cylinder needs two but you already
have one).

Have any of you bench bled these things?
It's all technique ... which if you have wrong ... it's just a mess.
(ask me how I know this)
Bench bleeding a BRAKE master is important. Bench bleeding a clutch
master is generally just a waste of time - and the slabe usually a
total waste. With no "residual pressure" valve, MOST hydraulic
clutches will almost totally "gravity bleed". Won't work if the slave
is higher than the master - or at least the reservoir.

He who is Clare Snyder said on Sun, 12 Nov 2017 22:55:56 -0500:

Noit critical- it is to seal the joint between the M/C and firewall
to keep dirt and water out of the cabin.

Whew! If it's just to keep dirt and water out of the cabin, I'm not
worried.

I know they don't put stuff there for nothing, so, it had to do something.

I guess I should keep spare "gasket material" on hand for such things.
This paper is pretty thin.

Do you keep gasket material on hand?
Do you just get it at the parts stores ahead of time?

He who is Clare Snyder said on Sun, 12 Nov 2017 23:05:57 -0500:

Bench bleeding a BRAKE master is important. Bench bleeding a clutch
master is generally just a waste of time - and the slabe usually a
total waste. With no "residual pressure" valve, MOST hydraulic
clutches will almost totally "gravity bleed". Won't work if the slave
is higher than the master - or at least the reservoir.

Thanks for that advice.

It was very simple to bench bleed the clutch master cylinder, where all I
did (after a few failed methods) was borrow the bleeder valve from the
slave and use that to loop a hose back into the reservoir like this.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/12/c.jpg

The only minor problem is that you need that bleed valve for the clutch
slave cylinder, so you still have to plug the hole somehow to store it for
the time that you're working on the clutch slave cylinder and before you
put it back in the car.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/11/12/b.jpg

Bench bleeding the clutch slave cylinder was, in effect, a waste of time
because it was very hard by way of comparison and I lost it all when
putting the clutch slave cylinder back on the vehicle anyway.

Luckily, as you said, bleeding the whole thing once I bolted it together
wasn't at all hard, so, in the future, I'd just skip the bench bleeding
altogether I think.

Clare Snyder posted for all of us...



On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 00:14:02 GMT, Iggy
m wrote:

replying to Clare Snyder, Iggy wrote:
Wow, not at all correct! But, that's all I get from you any which way. By the
way, clutch disks are meant to be ground all of the way down and more with no
driver perception by a working-properly pressure plate.
Believe what you want. I've been a mechanic for decades, and
replaced a LOT of clutches on vehicles from Minis to Loadstars, and
small tractors to large loaders. The first symptom of a failing clutch
is engaging close to the top. The second symtom is not having enough
"up travel" to engage. When the pedal gets too high on any vehicle
with a non-adjustable (aka "self adjusting") hydraulic linkage, it's
clutch time - pure and simple.

+ oooh maybe 150 and gaining

--
Tekkie

Ed Pawlowski posted for all of us...



On 11/11/2017 7:33 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 00:14:02 GMT, Iggy
m wrote:

replying to Clare Snyder, Iggy wrote:
Wow, not at all correct! But, that's all I get from you any which way. By the
way, clutch disks are meant to be ground all of the way down and more with no
driver perception by a working-properly pressure plate.
Believe what you want. I've been a mechanic for decades, and
replaced a LOT of clutches on vehicles from Minis to Loadstars, and
small tractors to large loaders. The first symptom of a failing clutch
is engaging close to the top. The second symptom is not having enough
"up travel" to engage. When the pedal gets too high on any vehicle
with a non-adjustable (aka "self adjusting") hydraulic linkage, it's
clutch time - pure and simple.


Are you saying that with only 50 years experience working on cars you
know more than Iggy? Anyone that hangs sheetrock horizontally would be
challenged adjusting a clutch.

Maybe Zaggy adjusted the short bus clutch...

--
Tekkie

He who is Tekkie+AK4- said on Mon, 13 Nov 2017 16:13:08 -0500:

When the pedal gets too high on any vehicle
with a non-adjustable (aka "self adjusting") hydraulic linkage, it's
clutch time - pure and simple.

+- oooh maybe 150 and gaining

The original problem (spongy feel) is solved but that just highlighed the
new problem, which is the engagement being very late in the cycle of the
non-adjustable clutch, merely means that, eventually, it won't engage, I
guess.

Given that, I'll be looking at clutch kits to buy (clutch disc, pressure
plate, pilot & throwout bearings, & aligner tool), where my first searches
seem to pull up a heck of a lot of brand discussion and pound discussion.

I guess my first question is about foot pounds.

The stock clutch is an Aisin brand 900 foot pounds clutch which the
aftermarket seems to frown upon (although they say get OEM parts a lot
too).
http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/aisin-seco-clutch-kits.html

The Marlin Crawler clutch is 1200 foot pounds, where I'm not sure what that
means in terms of better or worse.

Other brands are Duralast, Luk, Exedy, & XTR at prices for the entire kit
of from $50 to $300 for the same parts, from Amazon, Ebay, Autozone, Marlin
Crawler, etc.

Any advice where to aim, mainly at the foot pounds first, since that's a
spec?

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 04:20:00 +0000 (UTC), harry newton
wrote:

He who is Clare Snyder said on Sun, 12 Nov 2017 22:55:56 -0500:

Noit critical- it is to seal the joint between the M/C and firewall
to keep dirt and water out of the cabin.

Whew! If it's just to keep dirt and water out of the cabin, I'm not
worried.

I know they don't put stuff there for nothing, so, it had to do something.

I guess I should keep spare "gasket material" on hand for such things.
This paper is pretty thin.

Do you keep gasket material on hand?
Do you just get it at the parts stores ahead of time?
I always have SOME around, and in a pinch it's as close as an empty
cerial box. Soak with gasket shellac and it's golden