I am trying to install gas lines to a new heater. I have existing 25 yo pipes.
http://memphis.craigslist.org/lbg/6282864510.html

1) I think I have three choices. What are the pros/cons of my approaches.

A) I can replace the 3/4 pipe after the reducer with a longer piece. Replace the pipe right before the spigot with a longer piece. Add a piece from the coupler to the gas insert.
I like this because it seems to avoid adding more joints, but upsets existing work.

B) [out-down-forward] I can add a pipe coming out of the heater to an elbow joint (or tee), run a pipe down to another elbow joint and to the left into the spigot.
This avoids touching as much of the current work.

C) [out-forward-down] I can run a pipe out of the heater to a elbow (preferable a tee valve with a plug in the far side), run a pipe forward to an elbow join and down into the spigot.
This too avoids touching as much of the current work.

2) Should I replace all the existing above ground pipe since I am working already. It has a bit of rust on it, but not too much. How much worse is this going to be in another 25 years if I don't replace it all now? Mind you, this is a lot more work, but I have someone helping me who has done a lot of piping as a maintenance man.

3) Should I put the pool heater up higher on 2" bricks to give me better access if I need to service it in the future without having to disconnect piping. It is on a concrete slab.

4) I was thinking of adding in a tee join with a plug in case I decide to add another connection in the future.

On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 10:48:51 PM UTC-4, Deodiaus wrote:
I am trying to install gas lines to a new heater. I have existing 25 yo pipes.
http://memphis.craigslist.org/lbg/6282864510.html

1) I think I have three choices. What are the pros/cons of my approaches.

A) I can replace the 3/4 pipe after the reducer with a longer piece. Replace the pipe right before the spigot with a longer piece. Add a piece from the coupler to the gas insert.
I like this because it seems to avoid adding more joints, but upsets existing work.

B) [out-down-forward] I can add a pipe coming out of the heater to an elbow joint (or tee), run a pipe down to another elbow joint and to the left into the spigot.
This avoids touching as much of the current work.

C) [out-forward-down] I can run a pipe out of the heater to a elbow (preferable a tee valve with a plug in the far side), run a pipe forward to an elbow join and down into the spigot.
This too avoids touching as much of the current work.

2) Should I replace all the existing above ground pipe since I am working already. It has a bit of rust on it, but not too much. How much worse is this going to be in another 25 years if I don't replace it all now? Mind you, this is a lot more work, but I have someone helping me who has done a lot of piping as a maintenance man.

3) Should I put the pool heater up higher on 2" bricks to give me better access if I need to service it in the future without having to disconnect piping. It is on a concrete slab.

4) I was thinking of adding in a tee join with a plug in case I decide to add another connection in the future.

I would replace most or all of the above ground pipe in that picture because I wouldn't want to look at it next to a new pool heater. I believe a sediment trap is required by code too. Is the rest of the underground galvanized wrapped and taped properly, to code? I've seen galvanized installed incorrectly underground fail, corroded away in just 5 years. I sure wouldn't take that job for $50 and it would be illegal here unless you're a licensed plumber. There are electrical safety issues too, eg the heater needs to be properly bonded. Having to ask how to do it, hiring someone off Craigslist for $50, to install a gas pool heater, doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

On 8/31/2017 3:32 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 10:48:51 PM UTC-4, Deodiaus wrote:
I am trying to install gas lines to a new heater. I have existing 25 yo pipes.
http://memphis.craigslist.org/lbg/6282864510.html

1) I think I have three choices. What are the pros/cons of my approaches.

A) I can replace the 3/4 pipe after the reducer with a longer piece. Replace the pipe right before the spigot with a longer piece. Add a piece from the coupler to the gas insert.
I like this because it seems to avoid adding more joints, but upsets existing work.

B) [out-down-forward] I can add a pipe coming out of the heater to an elbow joint (or tee), run a pipe down to another elbow joint and to the left into the spigot.
This avoids touching as much of the current work.

C) [out-forward-down] I can run a pipe out of the heater to a elbow (preferable a tee valve with a plug in the far side), run a pipe forward to an elbow join and down into the spigot.
This too avoids touching as much of the current work.

2) Should I replace all the existing above ground pipe since I am working already. It has a bit of rust on it, but not too much. How much worse is this going to be in another 25 years if I don't replace it all now? Mind you, this is a lot more work, but I have someone helping me who has done a lot of piping as a maintenance man.

3) Should I put the pool heater up higher on 2" bricks to give me better access if I need to service it in the future without having to disconnect piping. It is on a concrete slab.

4) I was thinking of adding in a tee join with a plug in case I decide to add another connection in the future.
I would replace most or all of the above ground pipe in that picture because I wouldn't want to look at it next to a new pool heater. I believe a sediment trap is required by code too. Is the rest of the underground galvanized wrapped and taped properly, to code? I've seen galvanized installed incorrectly underground fail, corroded away in just 5 years. I sure wouldn't take that job for $50 and it would be illegal here unless you're a licensed plumber. There are electrical safety issues too, eg the heater needs to be properly bonded. Having to ask how to do it, hiring someone off Craigslist for $50, to install a gas pool heater, doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

Â* AFAIK the current installation doesn't meet Shelby County building
codes , I'd have to ask a (former brother-in-law) plumbing inspector tp
be certain . He should re-plumb the whole thing with black iron pipe ,
and have it done by a licensed plumber - and 50 bucks ain't gonna cover
itÂ* . If MLG&W got a look at that mess his gas would be cut off until it
was corrected . Or maybe not , that's a "nice" neighborhood , unlike the
part of town where our house is .

Â* --

Â* Snag

On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 7:11:16 AM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 8/31/2017 3:32 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 10:48:51 PM UTC-4, Deodiaus wrote:
I am trying to install gas lines to a new heater. I have existing 25 yo pipes.
http://memphis.craigslist.org/lbg/6282864510.html

1) I think I have three choices. What are the pros/cons of my approaches.

A) I can replace the 3/4 pipe after the reducer with a longer piece. Replace the pipe right before the spigot with a longer piece. Add a piece from the coupler to the gas insert.
I like this because it seems to avoid adding more joints, but upsets existing work.

B) [out-down-forward] I can add a pipe coming out of the heater to an elbow joint (or tee), run a pipe down to another elbow joint and to the left into the spigot.
This avoids touching as much of the current work.

C) [out-forward-down] I can run a pipe out of the heater to a elbow (preferable a tee valve with a plug in the far side), run a pipe forward to an elbow join and down into the spigot.
This too avoids touching as much of the current work.

2) Should I replace all the existing above ground pipe since I am working already. It has a bit of rust on it, but not too much. How much worse is this going to be in another 25 years if I don't replace it all now? Mind you, this is a lot more work, but I have someone helping me who has done a lot of piping as a maintenance man.

3) Should I put the pool heater up higher on 2" bricks to give me better access if I need to service it in the future without having to disconnect piping. It is on a concrete slab.

4) I was thinking of adding in a tee join with a plug in case I decide to add another connection in the future.
I would replace most or all of the above ground pipe in that picture because I wouldn't want to look at it next to a new pool heater. I believe a sediment trap is required by code too. Is the rest of the underground galvanized wrapped and taped properly, to code? I've seen galvanized installed incorrectly underground fail, corroded away in just 5 years. I sure wouldn't take that job for $50 and it would be illegal here unless you're a licensed plumber. There are electrical safety issues too, eg the heater needs to be properly bonded. Having to ask how to do it, hiring someone off Craigslist for $50, to install a gas pool heater, doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

Â* AFAIK the current installation doesn't meet Shelby County building
codes , I'd have to ask a (former brother-in-law) plumbing inspector tp
be certain . He should re-plumb the whole thing with black iron pipe ,
and have it done by a licensed plumber - and 50 bucks ain't gonna cover
itÂ* . If MLG&W got a look at that mess his gas would be cut off until it
was corrected . Or maybe not , that's a "nice" neighborhood , unlike the
part of town where our house is .

Â* --

Â* Snag


I see it's missing a sediment trap, but that's the only thing not to code that I see. Galvanized is permitted here and it's what's used outside, above ground, here.

What's a fair price for a licensed person?

Are there special requirements for a plumber doing the work if he is working with gas instead of water? How do you verify a plumber's qualifications for working with a gas line and validate the insurance policy, i.e. prior to doing the work? Even if the insurance company acknowledges a policy in place, are there clauses that might exclude them from paying out? Do you run the paperwork through some sort of database which shows you if he is qualified and call up his insurance company to verify his credentials. I have heard that sometimes people let their policy lapse, especially if they don't have enough money to cover it. Is this something that is customary to validate? I don't recall anyone taking the effort to validate the credentials, but maybe its because most people fail to validate this. I keep hearing horror stories on my HMO bulletin about shoddy workmanship from places (usually builders and roofers) with a big local presence and wonder how that business survives.
I have checked people out with the BBB, but more times than not, the only way to get a bad rating with the BBB is if you don't pay your dues. That and the fact that the BBB usually sides with the dues paying member despite your having documentation. I have taken a roofer and car mechanic to small claims court and despite having his lost the judgment (not showing up), I find that I get robbed again by trying to collect on the judgment. The agency that offered to collect the payment wanted 50% of the settlement if they collected at all. Mostly, they would harass the delinquent payment in the hopes that he would be shamed to pay off. However, I heard from a lawyer that most people will just ignore you, as this is their best option.

How much for running three existing pipes without changing existing work upsteam?
How much for replacing the all the piping from above ground to the heater?
Is black iron or galvanized recommended?
What do you mean by properly bonded, bonded to the concrete slab? The previous one was on the slab directly.

On 8/31/2017 6:41 PM, Deodiaus wrote:
What's a fair price for a licensed person?

Are there special requirements for a plumber doing the work if he is working with gas instead of water? How do you verify a plumber's qualifications for working with a gas line and validate the insurance policy, i.e. prior to doing the work? Even if the insurance company acknowledges a policy in place, are there clauses that might exclude them from paying out?

Most towns require a permit and inspection for gas work. It is often
ignored on small jobs as it adds a lot to the cost to apply, then get
the permit and inspection.

It is easy to check for a license. Most will show you if asked or tell
you where to verify and some states you can go on line and type in a
name. Some states require a gass fitter license.

On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 6:45:39 PM UTC-4, Deodiaus wrote:
How much for running three existing pipes without changing existing work upsteam?
How much for replacing the all the piping from above ground to the heater?

Best thing to do is get two or three quotes from plumbers in your area.


Is black iron or galvanized recommended?

For outside, I'd use galvanized, that's what's used here in NJ.
There was a lot of debate on the merits of black pipe vs galvanized.
I'm not sure I ever understood the entire reasoning, but I think
some locations prohibited galvanized on the theory that the zinc
can flake off and possibly clog appliance orifices. It may have
been also based on some regions back in the day having nat gas
that was not as pure and which had some substance in it that reacted
with zinc. Galvanized is permitted here.

I wouldn't get hung up on the cost of replacing one part of what
you have in that pic versus all of it. Getting a plumber out,
doing one part of it, once he;s there, doing the rest shouldn't
make all that much difference in the cost. The pipe and fittings
don't amount to much and it goes pretty fast.



What do you mean by properly bonded, bonded to the concrete slab? The previous one was on the slab directly.

All the metal on that pool pad is required to be bonded together
electrically so that it's at the same potential. There should
be a heavy solid copper wire there connecting the pump, heater,
etc all together. There is a bonding terminal showing in the
pic you have of the new heater and the old one should have been
bonded when installed.

On 8/31/2017 4:10 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 8/31/2017 6:41 PM, Deodiaus wrote:
What's a fair price for a licensed person?

Are there special requirements for a plumber doing the work if he is
working with gas instead of water?Â* How do you verify a plumber's
qualifications for working with a gas line and validate the insurance
policy, i.e. prior to doing the work?Â* Even if the insurance company
acknowledges a policy in place, are there clauses that might exclude
them from paying out?

Most towns require a permit and inspection for gas work.Â* It is often
ignored on small jobs as it adds a lot to the cost to apply, then get
the permit and inspection.

It is easy to check for a license.Â* Most will show you if asked or tell
you where to verify and some states you can go on line and type in a
name.Â* Some states require a gass fitter license.

Not getting the permit, and having the work inspected by the inspector
after completion could result in insurance problems.

On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 6:41:31 PM UTC-4, Deodiaus wrote:
What's a fair price for a licensed person?

Are there special requirements for a plumber doing the work if he is working with gas instead of water? How do you verify a plumber's qualifications for working with a gas line and validate the insurance policy, i.e. prior to doing the work? Even if the insurance company acknowledges a policy in place, are there clauses that might exclude them from paying out? Do you run the paperwork through some sort of database which shows you if he is qualified and call up his insurance company to verify his credentials. I have heard that sometimes people let their policy lapse, especially if they don't have enough money to cover it. Is this something that is customary to validate? I don't recall anyone taking the effort to validate the credentials, but maybe its because most people fail to validate this. I keep hearing horror stories on my HMO bulletin about shoddy workmanship from places (usually builders and roofers) with a big local presence and wonder how that business survives.

All those are good questions. For something like this, I'd find someone
who's established, licensed as a plumber and appears reputable and see a certificate of insurance. IDK what the specific licensing reqts are for
gas vs water, but I would think any plumber that's licensed in your state
to do residential work would be licensed to do gas. Best thing to do is
ask around for people who are happy with the service they've received.
Also, Angie's List is now free, you could look there for ratings and
feedback. I didn't have much use for them when you had to pay, but
if it's free, it can't hurt to look.




I have checked people out with the BBB, but more times than not, the only way to get a bad rating with the BBB is if you don't pay your dues. That and the fact that the BBB usually sides with the dues paying member despite your having documentation. I have taken a roofer and car mechanic to small claims court and despite having his lost the judgment (not showing up), I find that I get robbed again by trying to collect on the judgment. The agency that offered to collect the payment wanted 50% of the settlement if they collected at all. Mostly, they would harass the delinquent payment in the hopes that he would be shamed to pay off. However, I heard from a lawyer that most people will just ignore you, as this is their best option.

I've heard similar about the BBB. I think you have to be pretty bad to get
a bad rating. And agree about the difficulty in collecting a judgment.
If it's a real business with a bank account and property, then it can
be done, assuming you're willing to put in the effort or pay someone else,
which then eats into what you get. Bigger problem is that the people
you need to go after the most, ie the shysters, not only don't show up
and ignore collections, but are judgment proof, ie their assets are
hidden, in someone else's name, etc.

On 8/31/2017 7:54 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 8/31/2017 4:10 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 8/31/2017 6:41 PM, Deodiaus wrote:
What's a fair price for a licensed person?

Are there special requirements for a plumber doing the work if he is
working with gas instead of water?Â* How do you verify a plumber's
qualifications for working with a gas line and validate the insurance
policy, i.e. prior to doing the work?Â* Even if the insurance company
acknowledges a policy in place, are there clauses that might exclude
them from paying out?

Most towns require a permit and inspection for gas work.Â* It is often
ignored on small jobs as it adds a lot to the cost to apply, then get
the permit and inspection.

It is easy to check for a license.Â* Most will show you if asked or
tell you where to verify and some states you can go on line and type
in a name.Â* Some states require a gass fitter license.

Not getting the permit, and having the work inspected by the inspector
after completion could result in insurance problems.

I've heard that but never saw evidence. If a permit was taken and
inspected on every job, Home Depot and Lowes would have been out of
business decades ago.

On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 8:19:57 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 8/31/2017 7:54 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 8/31/2017 4:10 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 8/31/2017 6:41 PM, Deodiaus wrote:
What's a fair price for a licensed person?

Are there special requirements for a plumber doing the work if he is
working with gas instead of water?Â* How do you verify a plumber's
qualifications for working with a gas line and validate the insurance
policy, i.e. prior to doing the work?Â* Even if the insurance company
acknowledges a policy in place, are there clauses that might exclude
them from paying out?

Most towns require a permit and inspection for gas work.Â* It is often
ignored on small jobs as it adds a lot to the cost to apply, then get
the permit and inspection.

It is easy to check for a license.Â* Most will show you if asked or
tell you where to verify and some states you can go on line and type
in a name.Â* Some states require a gass fitter license.

Not getting the permit, and having the work inspected by the inspector
after completion could result in insurance problems.

I've heard that but never saw evidence. If a permit was taken and
inspected on every job, Home Depot and Lowes would have been out of
business decades ago.

+1

On 8/31/2017 8:01 PM, trader_4 wrote:


All those are good questions. For something like this, I'd find someone
who's established, licensed as a plumber and appears reputable and see a certificate of insurance. IDK what the specific licensing reqts are for
gas vs water, but I would think any plumber that's licensed in your state
to do residential work would be licensed to do gas.

MA is the only state I know of that requires a gas fitter license but
most plumbers have it.

In my town I see a couple of trucks around for plumbing and electrical.
I've seen them around for years so I'd be comfortable with any of them.

On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 9:38:29 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 8/31/2017 8:01 PM, trader_4 wrote:


All those are good questions. For something like this, I'd find someone
who's established, licensed as a plumber and appears reputable and see a certificate of insurance. IDK what the specific licensing reqts are for
gas vs water, but I would think any plumber that's licensed in your state
to do residential work would be licensed to do gas.

MA is the only state I know of that requires a gas fitter license but
most plumbers have it.

In my town I see a couple of trucks around for plumbing and electrical.
I've seen them around for years so I'd be comfortable with any of them.

You can also DIY as long as you know what you're doing, at least here,
in the Peoples Republic of NJ. That's a fairly simple job. As I told
him previously, the part I'd be most concerned about is the underground
portion that you can't see, if it's steel. Today they do most of that
with poly which won't corrode. But even if he calls a plumber, I think
they would just go with what's above ground, not worry about what they
can't see.

I'm a little more nervous because I lived in a condo in the 80s where
within about 5 years of being built new, the gas pipe between the
meters and the units started to fail. People found out when their
furnaces went out. Those pipes looked like swiss cheese. If I
didn't see them myself, I wouldn't believe it could fail that badly,
that fast. And you could see why. The pipes had tar going around
the pipe about 80% of the way. They had poured tar over the black
pipe after it was in the trench, instead of properly coating it with
a brush. The bottom never got coated, it even had stones embedded
in it. It's supposed to be taped
and coated. But the poly stuff they use now eliminates all that.
We wound up having to replace pipes on 120 units, which included
having to cut the pavement, a real mess.

On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 6:52:22 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 6:45:39 PM UTC-4, Deodiaus wrote:
How much for running three existing pipes without changing existing work upsteam?
How much for replacing the all the piping from above ground to the heater?

Best thing to do is get two or three quotes from plumbers in your area.


Is black iron or galvanized recommended?

For outside, I'd use galvanized, that's what's used here in NJ.
There was a lot of debate on the merits of black pipe vs galvanized.
I'm not sure I ever understood the entire reasoning, but I think
some locations prohibited galvanized on the theory that the zinc
can flake off and possibly clog appliance orifices. It may have
been also based on some regions back in the day having nat gas
that was not as pure and which had some substance in it that reacted
with zinc. Galvanized is permitted here.

I wouldn't get hung up on the cost of replacing one part of what
you have in that pic versus all of it. Getting a plumber out,
doing one part of it, once he;s there, doing the rest shouldn't
make all that much difference in the cost. The pipe and fittings
don't amount to much and it goes pretty fast.



What do you mean by properly bonded, bonded to the concrete slab? The previous one was on the slab directly.

All the metal on that pool pad is required to be bonded together
electrically so that it's at the same potential. There should
be a heavy solid copper wire there connecting the pump, heater,
etc all together. There is a bonding terminal showing in the
pic you have of the new heater and the old one should have been
bonded when installed.


You never use galvanized pipe with natural gas around here. It's not allowed by the building inspection department. The gas company runs black iron pipe and paints it with light gray paint whenever it's outdoors. I've heard different reasons why galvanized pipe is not allowed raging from the zinc flakes off and clogs gas orifices to the zinc reacting with the NG producing a toxic byproduct. All I know is to never argue with the inspectors. I'd check the local building code. You can always call the city inspection department to find out but don't tell them where you live and use a fake name if you plan on doing any work without a permit. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Gassy Monster

On 8/31/2017 9:11 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 6:52:22 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 6:45:39 PM UTC-4, Deodiaus wrote:
How much for running three existing pipes without changing existing work upsteam?
How much for replacing the all the piping from above ground to the heater?
Best thing to do is get two or three quotes from plumbers in your area.


Is black iron or galvanized recommended?
For outside, I'd use galvanized, that's what's used here in NJ.
There was a lot of debate on the merits of black pipe vs galvanized.
I'm not sure I ever understood the entire reasoning, but I think
some locations prohibited galvanized on the theory that the zinc
can flake off and possibly clog appliance orifices. It may have
been also based on some regions back in the day having nat gas
that was not as pure and which had some substance in it that reacted
with zinc. Galvanized is permitted here.

I wouldn't get hung up on the cost of replacing one part of what
you have in that pic versus all of it. Getting a plumber out,
doing one part of it, once he;s there, doing the rest shouldn't
make all that much difference in the cost. The pipe and fittings
don't amount to much and it goes pretty fast.



What do you mean by properly bonded, bonded to the concrete slab? The previous one was on the slab directly.
All the metal on that pool pad is required to be bonded together
electrically so that it's at the same potential. There should
be a heavy solid copper wire there connecting the pump, heater,
etc all together. There is a bonding terminal showing in the
pic you have of the new heater and the old one should have been
bonded when installed.

You never use galvanized pipe with natural gas around here. It's not allowed by the building inspection department. The gas company runs black iron pipe and paints it with light gray paint whenever it's outdoors. I've heard different reasons why galvanized pipe is not allowed raging from the zinc flakes off and clogs gas orifices to the zinc reacting with the NG producing a toxic byproduct. All I know is to never argue with the inspectors. I'd check the local building code. You can always call the city inspection department to find out but don't tell them where you live and use a fake name if you plan on doing any work without a permit. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Gassy Monster

Â* Where the OP lives it's inspected by the county . But your point is
well taken . BTW , they have caller ID too , so he'd have to call from
somebody else's phone .

Â* --

Â* Snag

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 7:05:00 AM UTC-5, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 8/31/2017 9:11 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 6:52:22 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 6:45:39 PM UTC-4, Deodiaus wrote:
How much for running three existing pipes without changing existing work upsteam?
How much for replacing the all the piping from above ground to the heater?
Best thing to do is get two or three quotes from plumbers in your area..

Is black iron or galvanized recommended?
For outside, I'd use galvanized, that's what's used here in NJ.
There was a lot of debate on the merits of black pipe vs galvanized.
I'm not sure I ever understood the entire reasoning, but I think
some locations prohibited galvanized on the theory that the zinc
can flake off and possibly clog appliance orifices. It may have
been also based on some regions back in the day having nat gas
that was not as pure and which had some substance in it that reacted
with zinc. Galvanized is permitted here.

I wouldn't get hung up on the cost of replacing one part of what
you have in that pic versus all of it. Getting a plumber out,
doing one part of it, once he;s there, doing the rest shouldn't
make all that much difference in the cost. The pipe and fittings
don't amount to much and it goes pretty fast.

What do you mean by properly bonded, bonded to the concrete slab? The previous one was on the slab directly.
All the metal on that pool pad is required to be bonded together
electrically so that it's at the same potential. There should
be a heavy solid copper wire there connecting the pump, heater,
etc all together. There is a bonding terminal showing in the
pic you have of the new heater and the old one should have been
bonded when installed.

You never use galvanized pipe with natural gas around here. It's not allowed by the building inspection department. The gas company runs black iron pipe and paints it with light gray paint whenever it's outdoors. I've heard different reasons why galvanized pipe is not allowed raging from the zinc flakes off and clogs gas orifices to the zinc reacting with the NG producing a toxic byproduct. All I know is to never argue with the inspectors. I'd check the local building code. You can always call the city inspection department to find out but don't tell them where you live and use a fake name if you plan on doing any work without a permit. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Gassy Monster

Â* Where the OP lives it's inspected by the county . But your point is
well taken . BTW , they have caller ID too , so he'd have to call from
somebody else's phone .
Â* --
Â* Snag


One of the things I did when I was still able to work was telecom work. I'd take my butt-set and connect to a pair on a NIC behind a shopping center to make calls. I've opened a pedestal in a rural area to make a phone call before. Now with Skype you can make calls and with a little nefarious activity you can spoof phone numbers. If I'm not mistaken, there are still payphones at truck stops. Dang, I could be a good terrorist if I could walk. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Phone Monster

On 08/30/2017 10:48 PM, Deodiaus wrote:
2) Should I replace all the existing above ground pipe since I am working already. It has a bit of rust on it, but not too much. How much worse is this going to be in another 25 years if I don't replace it all now? Mind you, this is a lot more work, but I have someone helping me who has done a lot of piping as a maintenance man.


To prevent rust, spray the pipe and fittings with WD-40 as needed. Obviously you'll want to shut off nearby open flames first.

This brings up a good point, the 25 y.o. pipe buried from the meter to the pool heater distribution. If the above ground connection is showing as much rust, I dread to think how bad is the buried pipe. It seems as if they did a poor job of making sure that it didn't rust. Should I dig up parts of the pipe to inspect the rust damage or should I replace it all while I am working on this?
All of a sudden, this grew from replacing the final connection with 3 elbow joints to replacing 20 feet of piping, some of which runs under the driveway?

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 12:38:39 PM UTC-4, Deodiaus wrote:
This brings up a good point, the 25 y.o. pipe buried from the meter to the pool heater distribution. If the above ground connection is showing as much rust, I dread to think how bad is the buried pipe. It seems as if they did a poor job of making sure that it didn't rust. Should I dig up parts of the pipe to inspect the rust damage or should I replace it all while I am working on this?
All of a sudden, this grew from replacing the final connection with 3 elbow joints to replacing 20 feet of piping, some of which runs under the driveway?

The buried pipe is supposed to be wrapped in tape and coated with tar.
Back in the day, maybe it was just coated, IDK. If it was at least
coated properly, it's probably OK. Another factor is what are the
consequences if it leaked? If it was underground but inside a building
or close to a building, I'd be concerned. If it's outside, away from
the house, then I wouldn't worry about it. If it starts leaking you'll
find out some day by getting a whiff of gas. If you call a plumber,
you can see what they have to say. Today they typically use poly
for underground so you don't have the corrosion problem.

BTW, does any know where I can find a 3/4 inch 3 way corner joint made of iron or brass? I tried googling but all I see are ones made of PVC or a tee valve.
I was thinking of using one for the sediment trap?
Can't seem to find this as I thought it would be standard?
Also, the cut off valve for the gas is made of brass. I guess the one there must be painted over, as I thought that you didn't want to mix metals to avoid electrolysis.

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 8:58:27 PM UTC-4, Deodiaus wrote:
BTW, does any know where I can find a 3/4 inch 3 way corner joint made of iron or brass? I tried googling but all I see are ones made of PVC or a tee valve.
I was thinking of using one for the sediment trap?
Can't seem to find this as I thought it would be standard?
Also, the cut off valve for the gas is made of brass. I guess the one there must be painted over, as I thought that you didn't want to mix metals to avoid electrolysis.

IDK what a 3 way corner joint is. Sounds like a tee to me, which is
what's typically used for the trap. A tee, a short nipple, and a cap.
Brass valve with steel pipe, I don't think you have a choice. I have
a brass valve on my new furnace with black iron and it passed the plumbing
inspection.

On 8/31/2017 5:19 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 8/31/2017 7:54 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 8/31/2017 4:10 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 8/31/2017 6:41 PM, Deodiaus wrote:
What's a fair price for a licensed person?

Are there special requirements for a plumber doing the work if he is
working with gas instead of water?Â* How do you verify a plumber's
qualifications for working with a gas line and validate the
insurance policy, i.e. prior to doing the work?Â* Even if the
insurance company acknowledges a policy in place, are there clauses
that might exclude them from paying out?

Most towns require a permit and inspection for gas work.Â* It is often
ignored on small jobs as it adds a lot to the cost to apply, then get
the permit and inspection.

It is easy to check for a license.Â* Most will show you if asked or
tell you where to verify and some states you can go on line and type
in a name.Â* Some states require a gass fitter license.

Not getting the permit, and having the work inspected by the inspector
after completion could result in insurance problems.

I've heard that but never saw evidence.Â* If a permit was taken and
inspected on every job, Home Depot and Lowes would have been out of
business decades ago.

I had no problem buying supplies at those stores on my permitted gas
line projects.

On 9/1/2017 9:08 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 8/31/2017 5:19 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


Not getting the permit, and having the work inspected by the
inspector after completion could result in insurance problems.

I've heard that but never saw evidence.Â* If a permit was taken and
inspected on every job, Home Depot and Lowes would have been out of
business decades ago.

I had no problem buying supplies at those stores on my permitted gas
line projects.


Sure, but how many people in the store for DIY stuff had permits? How
many would be doing those jobs if they had to pay for a permit and
inspection?

If you had to replace a light switch, would you get a permit and have it
inspected? Change a light fixture?

On 9/2/2017 9:36 AM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 18:08:48 -0700, Bob F wrote:



Most towns require a permit and inspection for gas work.Â* It is often
ignored on small jobs as it adds a lot to the cost to apply, then get
the permit and inspection.

It is easy to check for a license.Â* Most will show you if asked or
tell you where to verify and some states you can go on line and type
in a name.Â* Some states require a gass fitter license.

Not getting the permit, and having the work inspected by the inspector
after completion could result in insurance problems.

I've heard that but never saw evidence.Â* If a permit was taken and
inspected on every job, Home Depot and Lowes would have been out of
business decades ago.

I had no problem buying supplies at those stores on my permitted gas
line projects.

I think Ed is suggesting that far fewer home projects would actually
be attempted if they all required and, there were a way to enforce the
obtaining of permits.

However, my interpretation of his statement could be wrong.



No, you are exactly right. Changing out a fixture goes from a 10 minute
DIY to a three day $100 project.

I just got back from the hardware store. The guy recommends using this copper flexible coated with plastic line. Is electrolysis corrosion an issue for copper and iron piping [which seems to be a common youtube presentation]? I see this done on hot water heaters.

On 9/2/2017 6:33 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/1/2017 9:08 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 8/31/2017 5:19 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


Not getting the permit, and having the work inspected by the
inspector after completion could result in insurance problems.

I've heard that but never saw evidence.Â* If a permit was taken and
inspected on every job, Home Depot and Lowes would have been out of
business decades ago.

I had no problem buying supplies at those stores on my permitted gas
line projects.


Sure, but how many people in the store for DIY stuff had permits?Â* How
many would be doing those jobs if they had to pay for a permit and
inspection?

If you had to replace a light switch, would you get a permit and have it
inspected?Â* Change a light fixture?

Would you want to buy a home that had gas piping done without
professional checking of it's quality?

On 9/2/2017 7:24 PM, Deodiaus wrote:
I just got back from the hardware store. The guy recommends using this copper flexible coated with plastic line. Is electrolysis corrosion an issue for copper and iron piping [which seems to be a common youtube presentation]? I see this done on hot water heaters.


Again, the best source of information on this is the guy who will
inspect it before you turn the gas on. I found the inspector to be a
great source of information on the best way to do things. And I am glad
I have the appropriate signed permit.

On 8/31/2017 6:54 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 9:38:29 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 8/31/2017 8:01 PM, trader_4 wrote:


All those are good questions. For something like this, I'd find someone
who's established, licensed as a plumber and appears reputable and see a certificate of insurance. IDK what the specific licensing reqts are for
gas vs water, but I would think any plumber that's licensed in your state
to do residential work would be licensed to do gas.

MA is the only state I know of that requires a gas fitter license but
most plumbers have it.

In my town I see a couple of trucks around for plumbing and electrical.
I've seen them around for years so I'd be comfortable with any of them.

You can also DIY as long as you know what you're doing, at least here,
in the Peoples Republic of NJ. That's a fairly simple job. As I told
him previously, the part I'd be most concerned about is the underground
portion that you can't see, if it's steel. Today they do most of that
with poly which won't corrode. But even if he calls a plumber, I think
they would just go with what's above ground, not worry about what they
can't see.

When I did underground piping, the inspector approved of the coated
black pipe I ended up going with, and wanted the joints appropriately
wrapped or coated before he inspected it. Then, after the inspection, I
could cover the pipe.

I'm a little more nervous because I lived in a condo in the 80s where
within about 5 years of being built new, the gas pipe between the
meters and the units started to fail. People found out when their
furnaces went out. Those pipes looked like swiss cheese. If I
didn't see them myself, I wouldn't believe it could fail that badly,
that fast. And you could see why. The pipes had tar going around
the pipe about 80% of the way. They had poured tar over the black
pipe after it was in the trench, instead of properly coating it with
a brush. The bottom never got coated, it even had stones embedded
in it. It's supposed to be taped
and coated. But the poly stuff they use now eliminates all that.
We wound up having to replace pipes on 120 units, which included
having to cut the pavement, a real mess.

On 9/1/2017 5:47 AM, wd wrote:
On 08/30/2017 10:48 PM, Deodiaus wrote:
2)Â* Should I replace all the existing above ground pipe since I am
working already.Â* It has a bit of rust on it, but not too much.Â* How
much worse is this going to be in another 25 years if I don't replace
it all now?Â* Mind you, this is a lot more work, but I have someone
helping me who has done a lot of piping as a maintenance man.


To prevent rust, spray the pipe and fittings with WD-40 as needed.
Obviously you'll want to shut off nearby open flames first.


I can think of a lot of better solutions than that.

On 8/31/2017 7:11 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 6:52:22 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 6:45:39 PM UTC-4, Deodiaus wrote:
How much for running three existing pipes without changing existing work upsteam?
How much for replacing the all the piping from above ground to the heater?

Best thing to do is get two or three quotes from plumbers in your area.


Is black iron or galvanized recommended?

For outside, I'd use galvanized, that's what's used here in NJ.
There was a lot of debate on the merits of black pipe vs galvanized.
I'm not sure I ever understood the entire reasoning, but I think
some locations prohibited galvanized on the theory that the zinc
can flake off and possibly clog appliance orifices. It may have
been also based on some regions back in the day having nat gas
that was not as pure and which had some substance in it that reacted
with zinc. Galvanized is permitted here.

I wouldn't get hung up on the cost of replacing one part of what
you have in that pic versus all of it. Getting a plumber out,
doing one part of it, once he;s there, doing the rest shouldn't
make all that much difference in the cost. The pipe and fittings
don't amount to much and it goes pretty fast.



What do you mean by properly bonded, bonded to the concrete slab? The previous one was on the slab directly.

All the metal on that pool pad is required to be bonded together
electrically so that it's at the same potential. There should
be a heavy solid copper wire there connecting the pump, heater,
etc all together. There is a bonding terminal showing in the
pic you have of the new heater and the old one should have been
bonded when installed.


You never use galvanized pipe with natural gas around here. It's not allowed by the building inspection department. The gas company runs black iron pipe and paints it with light gray paint whenever it's outdoors. I've heard different reasons why galvanized pipe is not allowed raging from the zinc flakes off and clogs gas orifices to the zinc reacting with the NG producing a toxic byproduct.

My understanding is that problems relate to the actual gas composition
where you are. Some gas companies dis-allow it.

On Saturday, September 2, 2017 at 9:24:13 PM UTC-5, Deodiaus wrote:
I just got back from the hardware store. The guy recommends using this copper flexible coated with plastic line. Is electrolysis corrosion an issue for copper and iron piping [which seems to be a common youtube presentation]? I see this done on hot water heaters.

What's a "hot water heater"? Is it a boiler? Why would you heat hot water unless you wished to make steam? At my home I have a "water heater" piped into my sinks and bathtub so I have hot water to wash dishes and my butt. Wow, I just thought what it would be like to have someone make a mistake and connect a bidet to the hot water supply. ¯\_(Š™ï¸¿Š™)_/¯

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwpD3USKEKw

[8~{} Uncle Heated Monster

On 09/02/2017 11:08 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 9/1/2017 5:47 AM, wd wrote:
On 08/30/2017 10:48 PM, Deodiaus wrote:
2) Should I replace all the existing above ground pipe since I am working already. It has a bit of rust on it, but not too much. How much worse is this going to be in another 25 years
if I don't replace it all now? Mind you, this is a lot more work, but I have someone helping me who has done a lot of piping as a maintenance man.


To prevent rust, spray the pipe and fittings with WD-40 as needed. Obviously you'll want to shut off nearby open flames first.


I can think of a lot of better solutions than that.


Care to share them? Or are you just being a dick?

On 9/2/2017 10:57 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 9/2/2017 6:33 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/1/2017 9:08 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 8/31/2017 5:19 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


Not getting the permit, and having the work inspected by the
inspector after completion could result in insurance problems.

I've heard that but never saw evidence.Â* If a permit was taken and
inspected on every job, Home Depot and Lowes would have been out of
business decades ago.

I had no problem buying supplies at those stores on my permitted gas
line projects.


Sure, but how many people in the store for DIY stuff had permits?Â* How
many would be doing those jobs if they had to pay for a permit and
inspection?

If you had to replace a light switch, would you get a permit and have
it inspected?Â* Change a light fixture?

Would you want to buy a home that had gas piping done without
professional checking of it's quality?

Sure, as long as it is done right. I hooked up my own dryer and a
couple of others for friends. In 50 years, no house has blown up. They
are done to code.

On Sunday, September 3, 2017 at 1:47:37 AM UTC-4, Bob F wrote:
On 8/31/2017 7:11 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 6:52:22 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 6:45:39 PM UTC-4, Deodiaus wrote:
How much for running three existing pipes without changing existing work upsteam?
How much for replacing the all the piping from above ground to the heater?

Best thing to do is get two or three quotes from plumbers in your area..


Is black iron or galvanized recommended?

For outside, I'd use galvanized, that's what's used here in NJ.
There was a lot of debate on the merits of black pipe vs galvanized.
I'm not sure I ever understood the entire reasoning, but I think
some locations prohibited galvanized on the theory that the zinc
can flake off and possibly clog appliance orifices. It may have
been also based on some regions back in the day having nat gas
that was not as pure and which had some substance in it that reacted
with zinc. Galvanized is permitted here.

I wouldn't get hung up on the cost of replacing one part of what
you have in that pic versus all of it. Getting a plumber out,
doing one part of it, once he;s there, doing the rest shouldn't
make all that much difference in the cost. The pipe and fittings
don't amount to much and it goes pretty fast.



What do you mean by properly bonded, bonded to the concrete slab? The previous one was on the slab directly.

All the metal on that pool pad is required to be bonded together
electrically so that it's at the same potential. There should
be a heavy solid copper wire there connecting the pump, heater,
etc all together. There is a bonding terminal showing in the
pic you have of the new heater and the old one should have been
bonded when installed.


You never use galvanized pipe with natural gas around here. It's not allowed by the building inspection department. The gas company runs black iron pipe and paints it with light gray paint whenever it's outdoors. I've heard different reasons why galvanized pipe is not allowed raging from the zinc flakes off and clogs gas orifices to the zinc reacting with the NG producing a toxic byproduct.

My understanding is that problems relate to the actual gas composition
where you are. Some gas companies dis-allow it.

That's what I said earlier. And it also may be that the restrictions went
into place long, long ago, when some areas of the country had gas sources
with impurities in it and today the gas source may be different, pure,
but the code hasn't there hasn't change. One thing is for sure, the
national codes allow galvanized. What parts of those codes each area
adopts or not is up to them.

On Saturday, September 2, 2017 at 10:24:13 PM UTC-4, Deodiaus wrote:
I just got back from the hardware store. The guy recommends using this copper flexible coated with plastic line. Is electrolysis corrosion an issue for copper and iron piping [which seems to be a common youtube presentation]? I see this done on hot water heaters.

Electrolysis generally happens in water, which supplies the electrolyte.
Gas transitions from steel to copper, brass, etc and I've never heard
of any dielectric unions, etc. Is that flexible line even of sufficient
size for the BTUs of the pool heater? They can be 250K, 400K, which
is like 4x a furnace. Is it rated for outdoor use? Whether codes allows
it or not, IDK. If it does, I would think it would have to be protected
from physical damage and if so, I don't see an advantage to just using
steel pipe. I have not seen it used here for a pool heater, but then
I haven't seen a lot of them either. You could probably use the
flex pipe made specifically for gas runs, ie the kind you can
run through a whole house, but AFAIK, that requires special tools
to work with. I looked into it awhile back for a project, but figured
it wasn't worth it and went with steel. But the only thing that matters
is what the local code is.

If it were me, I'd just either use what's there, with minimal change,
if it's in decent shape and looks OK or replace it with new steel.
How much is your time worth, figuring all this out? NAt gas isn't
very expensive here, but people with pool heaters wind up with bills
of $2K a season. Spending a few hundred to just get it done right
might be the best option.

On Sunday, September 3, 2017 at 9:58:01 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/2/2017 10:57 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 9/2/2017 6:33 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/1/2017 9:08 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 8/31/2017 5:19 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


Not getting the permit, and having the work inspected by the
inspector after completion could result in insurance problems.

I've heard that but never saw evidence.Â* If a permit was taken and
inspected on every job, Home Depot and Lowes would have been out of
business decades ago.

I had no problem buying supplies at those stores on my permitted gas
line projects.


Sure, but how many people in the store for DIY stuff had permits?Â* How
many would be doing those jobs if they had to pay for a permit and
inspection?

If you had to replace a light switch, would you get a permit and have
it inspected?Â* Change a light fixture?

Would you want to buy a home that had gas piping done without
professional checking of it's quality?

Sure, as long as it is done right. I hooked up my own dryer and a
couple of others for friends. In 50 years, no house has blown up. They
are done to code.

And regardless of what anyone wants, when you buy a house, you really
don't know who did what on much of it anyway. And if you're that
worried about it, then hire a plumber to go inspect it all. Make
that to inspect what you can see....

I'd hook that pool heater up myself, but then like you I'm comfortable
working with plumbing and know what I'm doing. When you give advice
here, you have no reference to how skilled someone else is. Where
you and I know how to tighten up a pipe, how tight it should be,
you'd find people here who have no clue and could either leave it
loose or over tighten it, or do something else that we know from
years of practical experience, if not the code, is not the right
way to do it. The OP pic, as I recall, there was no sediment trap
there on the old heater. I wonder who installed that? That's not
a big deal, probably worked fine without it. But if it's missing
it's a simple example of something that likely was not done right,
to code, etc. How much does it matter? IDK, but if you go to sell
the place and a home inspector saw it, he'd likely flag it and
then take a closer look at more stuff, that's one angle.

On 9/3/2017 5:53 AM, Bob Fart wrote:
On 09/02/2017 11:08 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 9/1/2017 5:47 AM, wd wrote:
On 08/30/2017 10:48 PM, Deodiaus wrote:
2)Â* Should I replace all the existing above ground pipe since I am
working already.Â* It has a bit of rust on it, but not too much.Â* How
much worse is this going to be in another 25 years if I don't
replace it all now?Â* Mind you, this is a lot more work, but I have
someone helping me who has done a lot of piping as a maintenance man.


To prevent rust, spray the pipe and fittings with WD-40 as needed.
Obviously you'll want to shut off nearby open flames first.


I can think of a lot of better solutions than that.


Care to share them?Â* Or are you just being a dick?


Pipe wrap, paint, galvanizing primer. WD 40 would be a very short term fix.