I have a older outlet that I'm replacing with a newer style. My outlet has 2
wires a red and black one what side does each go to I have no ground wire. The
house is probably 80 years old with old wiring

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...s-1133668-.htm

On 6/3/2017 12:44 PM, Raymond wrote:
I have a older outlet that I'm replacing with a newer style. My outlet
has 2
wires a red and black one what side does each go to I have no ground
wire. The
house is probably 80 years old with old wiring


Old wiring can be hit or miss. Black is usually the hot and the other
neutral. Use a tester to be sure.

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 12:44:05 PM UTC-4, Raymond wrote:
I have a older outlet that I'm replacing with a newer style. My outlet has 2
wires a red and black one what side does each go to I have no ground wire. The
house is probably 80 years old with old wiring

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...s-1133668-.htm

I'd test it using a meter or test light. Between one wire and a ground
point, eg cold water pipe, you should have 120V. That is the hot.
The other may show some lesser voltage. The hot wire goes to the
receptacle side with the smaller opening, typically brass screw on
that side too.

You could also pull off the cover on the panel and see where the reds
and blacks land there.

In article ,
Raymond m wrote:

I have a older outlet that I'm replacing with a newer style. My outlet has 2
wires a red and black one what side does each go to I have no ground wire. The
house is probably 80 years old with old wiring

Raymond-

I assume you are in the U.S., working with a 120 Volt outlet. My first
thought would be that Black was hot and Red was neutral. But because of
the age of your wiring, you can not be sure without performing some kind
of test or looking at which wire is connected to the fuse at the fuse
box.

There is a neon test light available, made with a neon bulb in series
with a high value ballast resistor. Its two "test leads" would normally
be plugged into an outlet. The neon bulb would light if there was power
in the outlet. You can also use such a test light to see which of the
outlet's wires is hot. You hold one of the two test leads in your hand,
and touch the other lead to one of the wires. The hot wire will cause
the neon bulb to glow dimly.
Reference:
http://www.thecircuitdetective.com/neon_circuit_testers.htm

In modern outlet wiring, the hot wire is connected to the brass-colored
terminal (Narrow Slot). The neutral wire is connected to the
silver-colored terminal (Wide Slot).

Fred

On Sat, 03 Jun 2017 16:44:02 GMT, Raymond m wrote:

I have a older outlet that I'm replacing with a newer style. My outlet has 2
wires a red and black one what side does each go to I have no ground wire. The
house is probably 80 years old with old wiring

Why are you replacing the receptacle? Does the old receptacle not firmly hold a plug in it, or are you
changing it so it will accommodate a newer plug with a ground? If the latter, by code you must add a ground
wire. That could get difficult and/or expensive for the novice very quickly.

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 2:01:08 PM UTC-4, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Sat, 03 Jun 2017 16:44:02 GMT, Raymond m wrote:

I have a older outlet that I'm replacing with a newer style. My outlet has 2
wires a red and black one what side does each go to I have no ground wire. The
house is probably 80 years old with old wiring

Why are you replacing the receptacle? Does the old receptacle not firmly hold a plug in it, or are you
changing it so it will accommodate a newer plug with a ground? If the latter, by code you must add a ground
wire. That could get difficult and/or expensive for the novice very quickly.

That's not true. It's code compliant to replace an old two wire,
ungrounded receptacle with a 3 wire grounded type receptacle as long
as it's protected by an upstream GFCI and marked as "GFCI protected,
no eqpt ground".

On Sat, 03 Jun 2017 16:44:02 GMT, Raymond
m wrote:

I have a older outlet that I'm replacing with a newer style. My outlet has 2
wires a red and black one what side does each go to I have no ground wire. The
house is probably 80 years old with old wiring

Without knowing where you are, this may be hard to answer. In the UK,
black was neutral 80 years ago. Red was 230v

Fred McKenzie
Sat, 03
Jun 2017 17:31:58 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

In article ,
Raymond m
wrote:

I have a older outlet that I'm replacing with a newer style. My
outlet has 2 wires a red and black one what side does each go to
I have no ground wire. The house is probably 80 years old with
old wiring

Raymond-

I assume you are in the U.S., working with a 120 Volt outlet. My
first thought would be that Black was hot and Red was neutral.
But because of the age of your wiring, you can not be sure without
performing some kind of test or looking at which wire is connected
to the fuse at the fuse box.

There is a neon test light available, made with a neon bulb in
series with a high value ballast resistor. Its two "test leads"
would normally be plugged into an outlet. The neon bulb would
light if there was power in the outlet. You can also use such a
test light to see which of the outlet's wires is hot. You hold
one of the two test leads in your hand, and touch the other lead
to one of the wires. The hot wire will cause the neon bulb to
glow dimly. Reference:
http://www.thecircuitdetective.com/neon_circuit_testers.htm

Why not just invest in a 'ticker' (non contact voltage tester)
instead? They aren't that expensive and will quickly tell you which
wire is your 'hot' one vs the neutral one. Without any possible risk
to yourself in the process.

Get it near the red wire if it turns green and beeps, you have
voltage present. Likewise with your black wire. If both wires causes
it to beep, you might be dealing with a 240volt circuit, use a
multimeter to confirm this.

Do not attempt to test the wires if they're beside each other,
you'll get a false reading. You should instead opt to test at each
side of the outlet near the screws where the wires connect, instead.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Too...1SEN/100661787


--
Nope, I can't go to hell.
Satan still has a restraining order against me.
https://tekrider.net/pages/david-brooks-stalker.php

Diesel
news:XnsA78A3873E7B3FHT1@uX38qky0spPb6I8v9zTx9lokl 86L2RvRCAa160X4J.h7
8EHa89mg4767 Sun, 04 Jun 2017 09:23:06 GMT in alt.home.repair,
wrote:

Get it near the red wire if it turns green and beeps, you have
voltage present. Likewise with your black wire. If both wires
causes it to beep, you might be dealing with a 240volt circuit,
use a multimeter to confirm this.

Oops. turns red. Sorry.



--
Nope, I can't go to hell.
Satan still has a restraining order against me.
https://tekrider.net/pages/david-brooks-stalker.php

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 12:44:05 PM UTC-4, Raymond wrote:
I have a older outlet that I'm replacing with a newer style. My outlet has 2
wires a red and black one what side does each go to I have no ground wire. The
house is probably 80 years old with old wiring


After reading the suggestions in the other posts, if you are able to determine which wire is which,
e.g. black is hot, red is neutral, you should then mark the last inch or so of the red wire with
white electrical tape or white paint. Do this at both ends. This is a common practice used to
avoid confusion for those that come along later or even you if you disconnect the wires in
the future and forget where they go, especially in the panel where you might remove
multiple wires at the same time.

On 6/3/2017 2:09 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 2:01:08 PM UTC-4, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Sat, 03 Jun 2017 16:44:02 GMT, Raymond m wrote:

I have a older outlet that I'm replacing with a newer style. My outlet has 2
wires a red and black one what side does each go to I have no ground wire. The
house is probably 80 years old with old wiring
Why are you replacing the receptacle? Does the old receptacle not firmly hold a plug in it, or are you
changing it so it will accommodate a newer plug with a ground? If the latter, by code you must add a ground
wire. That could get difficult and/or expensive for the novice very quickly.
That's not true. It's code compliant to replace an old two wire,
ungrounded receptacle with a 3 wire grounded type receptacle as long
as it's protected by an upstream GFCI and marked as "GFCI protected,
no eqpt ground".


Nonsense, just bond the neutral to the ground. It all lands on the neutral/ground buss in the panel anyway.

Yah, I know, code requires a separate ground wire but that's just a distinction without a difference.

On Sun, 4 Jun 2017 05:57:52 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 12:44:05 PM UTC-4, Raymond wrote:
I have a older outlet that I'm replacing with a newer style. My outlet has 2
wires a red and black one what side does each go to I have no ground wire. The
house is probably 80 years old with old wiring


After reading the suggestions in the other posts, if you are able to determine which wire is which,
e.g. black is hot, red is neutral, you should then mark the last inch or so of the red wire with
white electrical tape or white paint. Do this at both ends. This is a common practice used to
avoid confusion for those that come along later or even you if you disconnect the wires in
the future and forget where they go, especially in the panel where you might remove
multiple wires at the same time.

If it turns out the OP is in UK, make that blue ;-)

On 6/3/2017 9:44 AM, Raymond wrote:
I have a older outlet that I'm replacing with a newer style. My outlet has 2
wires a red and black one what side does each go to I have no ground wire. The
house is probably 80 years old with old wiring


Stick the black one up yer ass and whistle Dixie.

On Sunday, June 4, 2017 at 9:43:43 AM UTC-4, Megg A. Hertz wrote:
On 6/3/2017 2:09 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 2:01:08 PM UTC-4, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Sat, 03 Jun 2017 16:44:02 GMT, Raymond m wrote:

I have a older outlet that I'm replacing with a newer style. My outlet has 2
wires a red and black one what side does each go to I have no ground wire. The
house is probably 80 years old with old wiring
Why are you replacing the receptacle? Does the old receptacle not firmly hold a plug in it, or are you
changing it so it will accommodate a newer plug with a ground? If the latter, by code you must add a ground
wire. That could get difficult and/or expensive for the novice very quickly.
That's not true. It's code compliant to replace an old two wire,
ungrounded receptacle with a 3 wire grounded type receptacle as long
as it's protected by an upstream GFCI and marked as "GFCI protected,
no eqpt ground".


Nonsense, just bond the neutral to the ground. It all lands on the neutral/ground buss in the panel anyway.

Yah, I know, code requires a separate ground wire but that's just a distinction without a difference.

There are real and significant differences, some of which have been discussed here. And
as I just pointed out, in this application code doesn't require a separate ground, a gfci is permissible. Too cheap to buy one gfci for a circuit?

On 6/4/2017 5:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, June 4, 2017 at 9:43:43 AM UTC-4, Megg A. Hertz wrote:
On 6/3/2017 2:09 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 2:01:08 PM UTC-4, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Sat, 03 Jun 2017 16:44:02 GMT, Raymond m wrote:

I have a older outlet that I'm replacing with a newer style. My outlet has 2
wires a red and black one what side does each go to I have no ground wire. The
house is probably 80 years old with old wiring
Why are you replacing the receptacle? Does the old receptacle not firmly hold a plug in it, or are you
changing it so it will accommodate a newer plug with a ground? If the latter, by code you must add a ground
wire. That could get difficult and/or expensive for the novice very quickly.
That's not true. It's code compliant to replace an old two wire,
ungrounded receptacle with a 3 wire grounded type receptacle as long
as it's protected by an upstream GFCI and marked as "GFCI protected,
no eqpt ground".

Nonsense, just bond the neutral to the ground. It all lands on the neutral/ground buss in the panel anyway.

Yah, I know, code requires a separate ground wire but that's just a distinction without a difference.
There are real and significant differences, some of which have been discussed here. And
as I just pointed out, in this application code doesn't require a separate ground, a gfci is permissible. Too cheap to buy one gfci for a circuit?


Why waste hundreds of feet of copper when a 1 inch jumper from neutral to ground screw can solve the problem? A 30-40 amp stove or dryer doesn't need a separate ground so neither does a 20 amp outlet.

On Sun, 4 Jun 2017 21:31:05 -0400, Trent
wrote:

On 6/4/2017 5:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, June 4, 2017 at 9:43:43 AM UTC-4, Megg A. Hertz wrote:
On 6/3/2017 2:09 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 2:01:08 PM UTC-4, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Sat, 03 Jun 2017 16:44:02 GMT, Raymond m wrote:

I have a older outlet that I'm replacing with a newer style. My outlet has 2
wires a red and black one what side does each go to I have no ground wire. The
house is probably 80 years old with old wiring
Why are you replacing the receptacle? Does the old receptacle not firmly hold a plug in it, or are you
changing it so it will accommodate a newer plug with a ground? If the latter, by code you must add a ground
wire. That could get difficult and/or expensive for the novice very quickly.
That's not true. It's code compliant to replace an old two wire,
ungrounded receptacle with a 3 wire grounded type receptacle as long
as it's protected by an upstream GFCI and marked as "GFCI protected,
no eqpt ground".

Nonsense, just bond the neutral to the ground. It all lands on the neutral/ground buss in the panel anyway.

Yah, I know, code requires a separate ground wire but that's just a distinction without a difference.
There are real and significant differences, some of which have been discussed here. And
as I just pointed out, in this application code doesn't require a separate ground, a gfci is permissible. Too cheap to buy one gfci for a circuit?


Why waste hundreds of feet of copper when a 1 inch jumper from neutral to ground screw can solve the problem? A 30-40 amp stove or dryer doesn't need a separate ground so neither does a 20 amp outlet.
If you swap the neutral and an ungrounded conductor, the stove or
dryer will not work. If someone swaps the neutral and ungrounded
conductor on a 120v circuit, everything still works, until someone
gets killed because the frame of the equipment is 120v above ground.

On 6/4/2017 7:51 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 4 Jun 2017 21:31:05 -0400, Trent
wrote:

On 6/4/2017 5:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, June 4, 2017 at 9:43:43 AM UTC-4, Megg A. Hertz wrote:
On 6/3/2017 2:09 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 2:01:08 PM UTC-4, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Sat, 03 Jun 2017 16:44:02 GMT, Raymond m wrote:

I have a older outlet that I'm replacing with a newer style. My outlet has 2
wires a red and black one what side does each go to I have no ground wire. The
house is probably 80 years old with old wiring
Why are you replacing the receptacle? Does the old receptacle not firmly hold a plug in it, or are you
changing it so it will accommodate a newer plug with a ground? If the latter, by code you must add a ground
wire. That could get difficult and/or expensive for the novice very quickly.
That's not true. It's code compliant to replace an old two wire,
ungrounded receptacle with a 3 wire grounded type receptacle as long
as it's protected by an upstream GFCI and marked as "GFCI protected,
no eqpt ground".

Nonsense, just bond the neutral to the ground. It all lands on the neutral/ground buss in the panel anyway.

Yah, I know, code requires a separate ground wire but that's just a distinction without a difference.
There are real and significant differences, some of which have been discussed here. And
as I just pointed out, in this application code doesn't require a separate ground, a gfci is permissible. Too cheap to buy one gfci for a circuit?


Why waste hundreds of feet of copper when a 1 inch jumper from neutral to ground screw can solve the problem? A 30-40 amp stove or dryer doesn't need a separate ground so neither does a 20 amp outlet.
If you swap the neutral and an ungrounded conductor, the stove or
dryer will not work. If someone swaps the neutral and ungrounded
conductor on a 120v circuit, everything still works, until someone
gets killed because the frame of the equipment is 120v above ground.



who said "swap"?

On Sunday, June 4, 2017 at 10:52:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 4 Jun 2017 21:31:05 -0400, Trent
wrote:

On 6/4/2017 5:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, June 4, 2017 at 9:43:43 AM UTC-4, Megg A. Hertz wrote:
On 6/3/2017 2:09 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 2:01:08 PM UTC-4, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Sat, 03 Jun 2017 16:44:02 GMT, Raymond m wrote:

I have a older outlet that I'm replacing with a newer style. My outlet has 2
wires a red and black one what side does each go to I have no ground wire. The
house is probably 80 years old with old wiring
Why are you replacing the receptacle? Does the old receptacle not firmly hold a plug in it, or are you
changing it so it will accommodate a newer plug with a ground? If the latter, by code you must add a ground
wire. That could get difficult and/or expensive for the novice very quickly.
That's not true. It's code compliant to replace an old two wire,
ungrounded receptacle with a 3 wire grounded type receptacle as long
as it's protected by an upstream GFCI and marked as "GFCI protected,
no eqpt ground".

Nonsense, just bond the neutral to the ground. It all lands on the neutral/ground buss in the panel anyway.

Yah, I know, code requires a separate ground wire but that's just a distinction without a difference.
There are real and significant differences, some of which have been discussed here. And
as I just pointed out, in this application code doesn't require a separate ground, a gfci is permissible. Too cheap to buy one gfci for a circuit?


Why waste hundreds of feet of copper when a 1 inch jumper from neutral to ground screw can solve the problem? A 30-40 amp stove or dryer doesn't need a separate ground so neither does a 20 amp outlet.
If you swap the neutral and an ungrounded conductor, the stove or
dryer will not work. If someone swaps the neutral and ungrounded
conductor on a 120v circuit, everything still works, until someone
gets killed because the frame of the equipment is 120v above ground.

Plus, the stove or dryer circuit is a homerun. The typical 120v circuit is Daisy chained through multiple receptacles, switches, etc which all kinds of amateur hacks fiddle with frequently. Very easy for a wire to get disconnected and if it's the shared neutral and ground with his one inch jumper, you wind up with appliance metal cases energized.

On 06/04/2017 10:51 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 4 Jun 2017 21:31:05 -0400, Trent
wrote:

On 6/4/2017 5:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, June 4, 2017 at 9:43:43 AM UTC-4, Megg A. Hertz wrote:
On 6/3/2017 2:09 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 2:01:08 PM UTC-4, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Sat, 03 Jun 2017 16:44:02 GMT, Raymond m wrote:

I have a older outlet that I'm replacing with a newer style. My outlet has 2
wires a red and black one what side does each go to I have no ground wire. The
house is probably 80 years old with old wiring
Why are you replacing the receptacle? Does the old receptacle not firmly hold a plug in it, or are you
changing it so it will accommodate a newer plug with a ground? If the latter, by code you must add a ground
wire. That could get difficult and/or expensive for the novice very quickly.
That's not true. It's code compliant to replace an old two wire,
ungrounded receptacle with a 3 wire grounded type receptacle as long
as it's protected by an upstream GFCI and marked as "GFCI protected,
no eqpt ground".
Nonsense, just bond the neutral to the ground. It all lands on the neutral/ground buss in the panel anyway.

Yah, I know, code requires a separate ground wire but that's just a distinction without a difference.
There are real and significant differences, some of which have been discussed here. And
as I just pointed out, in this application code doesn't require a separate ground, a gfci is permissible. Too cheap to buy one gfci for a circuit?

Why waste hundreds of feet of copper when a 1 inch jumper from neutral to ground screw can solve the problem? A 30-40 amp stove or dryer doesn't need a separate ground so neither does a 20 amp outlet.
If you swap the neutral and an ungrounded conductor, the stove or
dryer will not work. If someone swaps the neutral and ungrounded
conductor on a 120v circuit, everything still works, until someone
gets killed because the frame of the equipment is 120v above ground.


Well duh! Of course you'll likely kill someone if you start swapping wires.

On 06/05/2017 03:37 AM, trader_4 wrote:
Plus, the stove or dryer circuit is a homerun. The typical 120v circuit is Daisy chained through multiple receptacles, switches, etc which all kinds of amateur hacks fiddle with frequently. Very easy for a wire to get disconnected and if it's the shared neutral and ground with his one inch jumper, you wind up with appliance metal cases energized.


If you're going to argue that a 3-wire stove is "safe" then you must
also acknowledge that a 2-wire receptacle (with a neutral to ground
bond) is "safe" as well.

I think we both agree that a stupid homeowner/handyman can come along
and **** it up and make a ****ing dangerous mess.

On Monday, June 5, 2017 at 5:09:27 AM UTC-4, ralph wrote:
On 06/05/2017 03:37 AM, trader_4 wrote:
Plus, the stove or dryer circuit is a homerun. The typical 120v circuit is Daisy chained through multiple receptacles, switches, etc which all kinds of amateur hacks fiddle with frequently. Very easy for a wire to get disconnected and if it's the shared neutral and ground with his one inch jumper, you wind up with appliance metal cases energized.


If you're going to argue that a 3-wire stove is "safe" then you must
also acknowledge that a 2-wire receptacle (with a neutral to ground
bond) is "safe" as well..

No I don't acknowledge it for the reasons cited. Neither does the NEC, which hasn't allowed 3 wire for new work stoves and dryers for decades.



I think we both agree that a stupid homeowner/handyman can come along
and **** it up and make a ****ing dangerous mess.

The odds of that happening on a dedicated homerun stove or dryer circuit is much less than on typical lighting and receptacle circuits which are Daisy chained and screwed around with by amateurs way more than stove circuits.

..


Nonsense, just bond the neutral to the ground. It all lands on the neutral/ground buss in the panel anyway.



bad advice


if your combined ground /neutral wire should develop an open fault, you will apply 120V onto the frame of the appliance.

so you will cause the exact danger the ground is supposed to protect against.

On Monday, June 5, 2017 at 4:31:54 AM UTC-4, jak wrote:
On 06/04/2017 10:51 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 4 Jun 2017 21:31:05 -0400, Trent
wrote:

On 6/4/2017 5:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, June 4, 2017 at 9:43:43 AM UTC-4, Megg A. Hertz wrote:
On 6/3/2017 2:09 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 2:01:08 PM UTC-4, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Sat, 03 Jun 2017 16:44:02 GMT, Raymond m wrote:

I have a older outlet that I'm replacing with a newer style. My outlet has 2
wires a red and black one what side does each go to I have no ground wire. The
house is probably 80 years old with old wiring
Why are you replacing the receptacle? Does the old receptacle not firmly hold a plug in it, or are you
changing it so it will accommodate a newer plug with a ground? If the latter, by code you must add a ground
wire. That could get difficult and/or expensive for the novice very quickly.
That's not true. It's code compliant to replace an old two wire,
ungrounded receptacle with a 3 wire grounded type receptacle as long
as it's protected by an upstream GFCI and marked as "GFCI protected,
no eqpt ground".
Nonsense, just bond the neutral to the ground. It all lands on the neutral/ground buss in the panel anyway.

Yah, I know, code requires a separate ground wire but that's just a distinction without a difference.
There are real and significant differences, some of which have been discussed here. And
as I just pointed out, in this application code doesn't require a separate ground, a gfci is permissible. Too cheap to buy one gfci for a circuit?

Why waste hundreds of feet of copper when a 1 inch jumper from neutral to ground screw can solve the problem? A 30-40 amp stove or dryer doesn't need a separate ground so neither does a 20 amp outlet.
If you swap the neutral and an ungrounded conductor, the stove or
dryer will not work. If someone swaps the neutral and ungrounded
conductor on a 120v circuit, everything still works, until someone
gets killed because the frame of the equipment is 120v above ground.


Well duh! Of course you'll likely kill someone if you start swapping wires.

You don't have to swap wires for a shared neutral and ground to present
line voltage at the case of a metal appliance. All that is required is
for the neutral/ground to become disconnected somewhere along it's route.
And for the typical 120V circuit, that route can include many switches,
receptacles, junctions, etc. All you need is for one back-stab connection
to come loose and everything down stream with a metal case can become
energized.

On Sun, 4 Jun 2017 20:05:23 -0700, Taxed and Spent
wrote:

On 6/4/2017 7:51 PM, wrote:

Why waste hundreds of feet of copper when a 1 inch jumper from neutral to ground screw can solve the problem? A 30-40 amp stove or dryer doesn't need a separate ground so neither does a 20 amp outlet.
If you swap the neutral and an ungrounded conductor, the stove or
dryer will not work. If someone swaps the neutral and ungrounded
conductor on a 120v circuit, everything still works, until someone
gets killed because the frame of the equipment is 120v above ground.



who said "swap"?

It happens a lot, particularly on old 2 wire systems. Before polarized
plugs became the norm (~1970s), it was not even important to keep the
hot and neutral straight. When I was a kid, there was no silver screw
on the receptacles in our house and both slots were the same size.
(house built in the 40s)

On 6/5/2017 10:30 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 4 Jun 2017 20:05:23 -0700, Taxed and Spent
wrote:

On 6/4/2017 7:51 PM, wrote:

Why waste hundreds of feet of copper when a 1 inch jumper from neutral to ground screw can solve the problem? A 30-40 amp stove or dryer doesn't need a separate ground so neither does a 20 amp outlet.
If you swap the neutral and an ungrounded conductor, the stove or
dryer will not work. If someone swaps the neutral and ungrounded
conductor on a 120v circuit, everything still works, until someone
gets killed because the frame of the equipment is 120v above ground.



who said "swap"?

It happens a lot, particularly on old 2 wire systems. Before polarized
plugs became the norm (~1970s), it was not even important to keep the
hot and neutral straight. When I was a kid, there was no silver screw
on the receptacles in our house and both slots were the same size.
(house built in the 40s)



but that was not what was being discussed here.

On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 10:38:02 -0700, Taxed and Spent
wrote:

On 6/5/2017 10:30 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 4 Jun 2017 20:05:23 -0700, Taxed and Spent
wrote:

On 6/4/2017 7:51 PM, wrote:

Why waste hundreds of feet of copper when a 1 inch jumper from neutral to ground screw can solve the problem? A 30-40 amp stove or dryer doesn't need a separate ground so neither does a 20 amp outlet.
If you swap the neutral and an ungrounded conductor, the stove or
dryer will not work. If someone swaps the neutral and ungrounded
conductor on a 120v circuit, everything still works, until someone
gets killed because the frame of the equipment is 120v above ground.



who said "swap"?

It happens a lot, particularly on old 2 wire systems. Before polarized
plugs became the norm (~1970s), it was not even important to keep the
hot and neutral straight. When I was a kid, there was no silver screw
on the receptacles in our house and both slots were the same size.
(house built in the 40s)



but that was not what was being discussed here.

If you went to one of those houses and bootlegged a neutral/ground
connection, that is exactly what we are talking about. If the ground
is present (50s and later), why bother?

On 06/05/2017 12:30 PM, wrote:

[snip]

It happens a lot, particularly on old 2 wire systems. Before polarized
plugs became the norm (~1970s), it was not even important to keep the
hot and neutral straight. When I was a kid, there was no silver screw
on the receptacles in our house and both slots were the same size.
(house built in the 40s)


IIRC the only place I've seen non-polarized 120V plugs or receptacles
recently is on miniature holiday lights. Maybe that's to keep you from
using the receptacle on the end of the string for anything but another
light string.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Orthodoxy means not thinking -- not needing to think. Orthodoxy is
unconsciousness" -- George Orwell

On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 16:48:32 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 06/05/2017 12:30 PM, wrote:

[snip]

It happens a lot, particularly on old 2 wire systems. Before polarized
plugs became the norm (~1970s), it was not even important to keep the
hot and neutral straight. When I was a kid, there was no silver screw
on the receptacles in our house and both slots were the same size.
(house built in the 40s)


IIRC the only place I've seen non-polarized 120V plugs or receptacles
recently is on miniature holiday lights. Maybe that's to keep you from
using the receptacle on the end of the string for anything but another
light string.

I have some old stuff with switches or lamp holders in them that have
nonpolarized plugs. That is pretty much worst case.
I also found a couple of 18ga non-polarized extension cords in my
mom's stuff. I put them in with the christmas stuff, just for those
cheap lights with 20-22 ga wire.

On Monday, June 5, 2017 at 5:48:36 PM UTC-4, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 06/05/2017 12:30 PM, wrote:

[snip]

It happens a lot, particularly on old 2 wire systems. Before polarized
plugs became the norm (~1970s), it was not even important to keep the
hot and neutral straight. When I was a kid, there was no silver screw
on the receptacles in our house and both slots were the same size.
(house built in the 40s)


IIRC the only place I've seen non-polarized 120V plugs or receptacles
recently is on miniature holiday lights. Maybe that's to keep you from
using the receptacle on the end of the string for anything but another
light string.


Cell phone/iPad chargers

On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 19:35:24 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

IIRC the only place I've seen non-polarized 120V plugs or receptacles
recently is on miniature holiday lights. Maybe that's to keep you from
using the receptacle on the end of the string for anything but another
light string.


Cell phone/iPad chargers

.... or anything that is not polarity sensitive. The cheap christmas
lights get away with it because there is no switches or lamp holders
with a "shell".
The chargers are polarity agnostic too since they simply feed an
isolation transformer or a switching power supply. Most electronics
are the same way these days.

On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 10:38:02 -0700, Taxed and Spent
wrote:

On 6/5/2017 10:30 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 4 Jun 2017 20:05:23 -0700, Taxed and Spent
wrote:

On 6/4/2017 7:51 PM, wrote:

Why waste hundreds of feet of copper when a 1 inch jumper from neutral to ground screw can solve the problem? A 30-40 amp stove or dryer doesn't need a separate ground so neither does a 20 amp outlet.
If you swap the neutral and an ungrounded conductor, the stove or
dryer will not work. If someone swaps the neutral and ungrounded
conductor on a 120v circuit, everything still works, until someone
gets killed because the frame of the equipment is 120v above ground.



who said "swap"?

It happens a lot, particularly on old 2 wire systems. Before polarized
plugs became the norm (~1970s), it was not even important to keep the
hot and neutral straight. When I was a kid, there was no silver screw
on the receptacles in our house and both slots were the same size.
(house built in the 40s)



but that was not what was being discussed here.
Are you certain?

On Monday, June 5, 2017 at 11:30:18 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 19:35:24 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

IIRC the only place I've seen non-polarized 120V plugs or receptacles
recently is on miniature holiday lights. Maybe that's to keep you from
using the receptacle on the end of the string for anything but another
light string.


Cell phone/iPad chargers

... or anything that is not polarity sensitive. The cheap christmas
lights get away with it because there is no switches or lamp holders
with a "shell".
The chargers are polarity agnostic too since they simply feed an
isolation transformer or a switching power supply. Most electronics
are the same way these days.

What sucks is when you are up on a ladder attempting to connect one string to
another only to find that the plug from one set *is* polarized but the socket
is not.