Hi All,

A customer sent me this:

Needed: A unit that would allow remote manual operation of a
standard household Hot Water Recirculating Pump from up to
six locations within the house; i.e., kitchen, bathrooms,
utility room, etc., anywhere hot water is needed, eliminating
the need to run the hot water tap until the hot water arrives.
This is the alternative to a timed or constant running Hot
Water Recirculating Pump.

Said he is going broke having to keep the hot water running all
the time.

Any of you guys have an experience with this kind of thing?

Many thanks,
-T

On 12/27/2016 3:44 PM, T wrote:
Hi All,

A customer sent me this:

Needed: A unit that would allow remote manual operation of a
standard household Hot Water Recirculating Pump from up to
six locations within the house; i.e., kitchen, bathrooms,
utility room, etc., anywhere hot water is needed, eliminating
the need to run the hot water tap until the hot water arrives.
This is the alternative to a timed or constant running Hot
Water Recirculating Pump.

Said he is going broke having to keep the hot water running all
the time.

Any of you guys have an experience with this kind of thing?

Many thanks,
-T



I am not so lazy as that, but I put a timer switch in the kitchen (close
to the water heater) so when I want to take a shower, I crank it for 5
or 10 minutes, then it shuts off.

They make some things that are flow sensors which turn on the pump, but
that would not work unless you are smart enough to just turn it on to
flow/start pump, then turn it off because you know what is happening
with the pump. The rest of your household will not get it.

So, you could put a switch at each of six locations, but that seems
silly to me.

On Tue, 27 Dec 2016 23:44:45 -0000, T wrote:

Hi All,

A customer sent me this:

Needed: A unit that would allow remote manual operation of a
standard household Hot Water Recirculating Pump from up to
six locations within the house; i.e., kitchen, bathrooms,
utility room, etc., anywhere hot water is needed, eliminating
the need to run the hot water tap until the hot water arrives.
This is the alternative to a timed or constant running Hot
Water Recirculating Pump.

Said he is going broke having to keep the hot water running all
the time.

Any of you guys have an experience with this kind of thing?

Many thanks,
-T

Stop wasting money on hot water, what's it for?

--
Father walks into his son's room and starts talking.
"Son, masturbating will cause you to go blind."
"But dad, I'm over here!"

On 12/27/2016 03:44 PM, T wrote:
Hi All,

A customer sent me this:

Needed: A unit that would allow remote manual operation of a
standard household Hot Water Recirculating Pump from up to
six locations within the house; i.e., kitchen, bathrooms,
utility room, etc., anywhere hot water is needed, eliminating
the need to run the hot water tap until the hot water arrives.
This is the alternative to a timed or constant running Hot
Water Recirculating Pump.

Said he is going broke having to keep the hot water running all
the time.

Any of you guys have an experience with this kind of thing?

Many thanks,
-T


The rest of his letter:

We have a hot water circulation system installed at
our home, but I turned it off as it ran 24 hours a
day. Not very efficient for sure.

"T" wrote in message news
Hi All,

A customer sent me this:

Needed: A unit that would allow remote manual operation of a
standard household Hot Water Recirculating Pump from up to
six locations within the house; i.e., kitchen, bathrooms,
utility room, etc., anywhere hot water is needed, eliminating
the need to run the hot water tap until the hot water arrives.
This is the alternative to a timed or constant running Hot
Water Recirculating Pump.

Said he is going broke having to keep the hot water running all
the time.

Any of you guys have an experience with this kind of thing?

Many thanks,
-T

Number one You should consider cost. Cost for installation and cost heating
water because running all the time heat loses through a pipes, will need to
be made up at all time. Unless you go into sophistication with regulators,
high temperature pump and pressure switches Tst. ETC. And Perhaps high
temperature Silicon impregnated foam Insulation. You are asking for very
expansive setup.

On 12/27/2016 04:24 PM, Tony944 wrote:


"T" wrote in message news
Hi All,

A customer sent me this:

Needed: A unit that would allow remote manual operation of a
standard household Hot Water Recirculating Pump from up to
six locations within the house; i.e., kitchen, bathrooms,
utility room, etc., anywhere hot water is needed, eliminating
the need to run the hot water tap until the hot water arrives.
This is the alternative to a timed or constant running Hot
Water Recirculating Pump.

Said he is going broke having to keep the hot water running all
the time.

Any of you guys have an experience with this kind of thing?

Many thanks,
-T

Number one You should consider cost. Cost for installation and cost
heating water because running all the time heat loses through a pipes,
will need to be made up at all time. Unless you go into sophistication
with regulators, high temperature pump and pressure switches Tst. ETC.
And Perhaps high temperature Silicon impregnated foam Insulation. You
are asking for very expansive setup.

That was my thought too. Thank you for the confirmation.

On Tue, 27 Dec 2016 15:44:45 -0800, T wrote:

Hi All,

A customer sent me this:

Needed: A unit that would allow remote manual operation of a
standard household Hot Water Recirculating Pump from up to
six locations within the house; i.e., kitchen, bathrooms,
utility room, etc., anywhere hot water is needed, eliminating
the need to run the hot water tap until the hot water arrives.
This is the alternative to a timed or constant running Hot
Water Recirculating Pump.

Said he is going broke having to keep the hot water running all
the time.

Any of you guys have an experience with this kind of thing?

Many thanks,
-T

This idea was popular years ago when energy was cheap and they did not
even use a pump. It will thermal siphon if you have a multi story home
with the water heater in the basement. You just plumb an extra pipe
from the hot water in the upstairs bathroom back down to the bottom of
the water heater. It can be a little 3/8" copper tube. My dad did it
at our house in the 50s.

On 12/27/2016 05:49 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Dec 2016 15:44:45 -0800, T wrote:

Hi All,

A customer sent me this:

Needed: A unit that would allow remote manual operation of a
standard household Hot Water Recirculating Pump from up to
six locations within the house; i.e., kitchen, bathrooms,
utility room, etc., anywhere hot water is needed, eliminating
the need to run the hot water tap until the hot water arrives.
This is the alternative to a timed or constant running Hot
Water Recirculating Pump.

Said he is going broke having to keep the hot water running all
the time.

Any of you guys have an experience with this kind of thing?

Many thanks,
-T

This idea was popular years ago when energy was cheap and they did not
even use a pump. It will thermal siphon if you have a multi story home
with the water heater in the basement. You just plumb an extra pipe
from the hot water in the upstairs bathroom back down to the bottom of
the water heater. It can be a little 3/8" copper tube. My dad did it
at our house in the 50s.


T
hank you!

On Tue, 27 Dec 2016 15:58:01 -0800, Taxed and Spent
wrote:

On 12/27/2016 3:44 PM, T wrote:
Hi All,

A customer sent me this:

Needed: A unit that would allow remote manual operation of a
standard household Hot Water Recirculating Pump from up to
six locations within the house; i.e., kitchen, bathrooms,
utility room, etc., anywhere hot water is needed, eliminating
the need to run the hot water tap until the hot water arrives.
This is the alternative to a timed or constant running Hot
Water Recirculating Pump.

Said he is going broke having to keep the hot water running all
the time.

Any of you guys have an experience with this kind of thing?

Many thanks,
-T



I am not so lazy as that, but I put a timer switch in the kitchen (close
to the water heater) so when I want to take a shower, I crank it for 5
or 10 minutes, then it shuts off.

They make some things that are flow sensors which turn on the pump, but
that would not work unless you are smart enough to just turn it on to
flow/start pump, then turn it off because you know what is happening
with the pump. The rest of your household will not get it.

So, you could put a switch at each of six locations, but that seems
silly to me.
normally open pusgbutton switches wired in parallel to control a low
voltage relay to run the pump - and possibly a solenoild valve to
prevent backflow with the pump shut off.

Needed: A unit that would allow remote manual operation of a
standard household Hot Water Recirculating Pump from up to
six locations within the house; i.e., kitchen, bathrooms,
utility room, etc., anywhere hot water is needed, eliminating
the need to run the hot water tap until the hot water arrives.
This is the alternative to a timed or constant running Hot
Water Recirculating Pump.
Said he is going broke having to keep the hot water running all
the time.
Any of you guys have an experience with this kind of thing?

Our water heater is about 40 feet from our master bath. Without a pump it
takes about two minutes for hot water to reach the shower. That's a lot
of water going down the drain just waiting for hot water.

So, I installed a simple hot water recirculating system in our house. The
pump is located at the hot water heater, and I have a small 1/2" line
that returns back from the furthest shower. With the pump running we get
hot water in less than 5 seconds.

Our pump is on a timer and only runs a few hours in the morning, and a
few hours in the evening, during the times we are most likely to need hot
water. Our pipes are located below the floor, but above the insulation.
So any heat loss just helps heat the house. We are all electric (heat,
hot water, lighting, etc.) and I have not noticed any significant
increase in our power usage compared to before we installed the
recirculating pump.

You could certainly install manual switches in each room instead of using
a timer. However, if the pump is still back at the water heater, you'll
still have to wait for the water to reach the faucet whether it's pushed
by the pump or standard water pressure. The point of the recirculating
pump is hot water is already at the fixture ready to go.

If the pipes are accessible, you could reduce heat loss by installing
foam pipe insulation.

You might be able to relocate the water heater so it is closer to the
rooms that use hot water the most (typically bathrooms).

Or, you could install a second water heater to serve rooms on the other
side of the house.

You could also install small point of use water heaters. This could give
you 5 gallons or so of hot water for things like washing hands, or
rinsing plates. If you need more hot water than that, you would have to
wait for the hot water to reach the fixture from the main water heater.

Of course, you would need to run new wiring and plumbing if you add or
relocate water heaters.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

Running a home hot water circulator continuously is stupid/expensive. Putting
pushbuttons at each bathroom/kitchen doesn't have to be, but it isn't going to
solve the delay problem, just reduce the waste of water which may or may not be
a concern. It doesn't solve the delay problem becuase the typical recirculating
pumps push about 1/2 the volume of water that a tap draws, so they take twice as
long to bring the hot water as running the faucet will. If you are trying to
retrofit something and running wires is a concern, look at Zwave devices hooked
up to a time delay relay.

We have a timer set to run for 90 minutes first thing in the morning. That
covers the usual shower range for the household. 60 minutes around 6PM to cover
kitching rinsing around dinner time, and 60 minutes around 9PM to cover the
dishwasher, evening bath use.

Covers 80% of the usual need and live with the occasional unusual need by
running the faucet.

If you are building a new house, pay attention to the plumber and how he's
running the loop for hot water. Ours decided to run through all the bedrooms and
then to the kitchen last. Not the most optimal route as popup demand is usually
in the kitchen.

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 27 Dec 2016 16:24:48 -0800, "Tony944"
wrote:



"T" wrote in message news
Hi All,

A customer sent me this:

Needed: A unit that would allow remote manual operation of a
standard household Hot Water Recirculating Pump from up to
six locations within the house; i.e., kitchen, bathrooms,
utility room, etc., anywhere hot water is needed, eliminating
the need to run the hot water tap until the hot water arrives.
This is the alternative to a timed or constant running Hot
Water Recirculating Pump.

Said he is going broke having to keep the hot water running all
the time.

Any of you guys have an experience with this kind of thing?

I have a friend who bought a house that was built by an architect, and
it has loads of bells and whistles, including this. I've thought a
little about potential cost, and I thought about sending her this
thread, but I'm not going to do that unless there is an easy solution.

Not only that, but the pump was broken when she bought the house, and
the home inspector didn't notice it. So she ended up spending hundreds
of dollars for a new pump.

Or that the generator didn't start automatically, iirc.

Many thanks,
-T

Number one You should consider cost. Cost for installation and cost heating
water because running all the time heat loses through a pipes, will need to

Well, in the winter it's like having electric heat, which is probably
more expensive than the main heat, but at the second half of spring and
the first half of fall, the waste heat is a total waste, and when it's
hot enough for AC it increases the AC bill. In fact, it gets hot enough
for AC earlier because of the heat from the constantly reheated water
pipes. Would it help and be worth it to use plastic pipes?

be made up at all time. Unless you go into sophistication with regulators,
high temperature pump and pressure switches Tst. ETC. And Perhaps high
temperature Silicon impregnated foam Insulation. You are asking for very
expansive setup.

And expensive too. After living in a ranch house and having cold water
at the far end of the house**, the first thing I did when I got here is
insulate the hot water pipe to the 2nd floor bathroom, where it showed
in the basement, about half the total length. It didn't make any
difference because it still cooled off while I slept for 8 hours or went
to work for 8 hours, or just went downstairs for 8 hours. I think
water in plastic pipe would also cool off in 8 hours.

**There the whole pipe was avaiable for insulation except that the crawl
space was a big mud hole, sticky mud that stuck to my shoes. I went
down there once the first year, and never again for the next 8.

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 27 Dec 2016 23:24:48 -0700, Arthur Conan
Doyle wrote:


Running a home hot water circulator continuously is stupid/expensive. Putting
pushbuttons at each bathroom/kitchen doesn't have to be, but it isn't going to
solve the delay problem, just reduce the waste of water which may or may not be
a concern. It doesn't solve the delay problem becuase the typical recirculating
pumps push about 1/2 the volume of water that a tap draws, so they take twice as
long to bring the hot water as running the faucet will. If you are trying to
retrofit something and running wires is a concern, look at Zwave devices hooked
up to a time delay relay.

We have a timer set to run for 90 minutes first thing in the morning. That
covers the usual shower range for the household. 60 minutes around 6PM to cover
kitching rinsing around dinner time, and 60 minutes around 9PM to cover the
dishwasher, evening bath use.

Covers 80% of the usual need and live with the occasional unusual need by
running the faucet.

If you are building a new house, pay attention to the plumber and how he's
running the loop for hot water. Ours decided to run through all the bedrooms and
then to the kitchen last. Not the most optimal route as popup demand is usually
in the kitchen.

OTOH, your dishes don't scream when they get cold water splashed on
them.

On Tue, 27 Dec 2016 15:44:45 -0800, T wrote:

Hi All,

A customer sent me this:

Needed: A unit that would allow remote manual operation of a
standard household Hot Water Recirculating Pump from up to
six locations within the house; i.e., kitchen, bathrooms,
utility room, etc., anywhere hot water is needed, eliminating
the need to run the hot water tap until the hot water arrives.
This is the alternative to a timed or constant running Hot
Water Recirculating Pump.

Said he is going broke having to keep the hot water running all
the time.

Any of you guys have an experience with this kind of thing?


If the goal is to save energy and waste as little water as possible
while at the same time having warm - hot water available quickly, then
I would ensure the hot water pipes are as well insulated as possible
and put a timer on the pump and try running it for 5 minutes every 30
- 60 minutes. That will keep warm water in the pipes but not run the
pump continuously and save a tremendous amount of energy.

The wasteful aspect of the above solution is you will be dumping the
cool water from the pipes back into the hot water heater, reducing the
temperature causing it to fire up.

This should give your customer a good ROI with a reasonable compromise
in function and not represent a huge project.

If you want to give him exactly what he asked for there exist remote
control AC outlets, install one for the pump and buy multiple remotes.
I don't think this is a great solution as you will either need to put
a run timer on the pump or the customer will need to remember to shut
off the pump when he is finished, this would be a problem when washing
dishes or clothes. It would also mean he will have to wait for the
water to circulate and or waste the water that has been sitting in the
pipes.

On 12/27/2016 6:44 PM, T wrote:
Hi All,

A customer sent me this:

Needed: A unit that would allow remote manual operation of a
standard household Hot Water Recirculating Pump from up to
six locations within the house; i.e., kitchen, bathrooms,
utility room, etc., anywhere hot water is needed, eliminating
the need to run the hot water tap until the hot water arrives.
This is the alternative to a timed or constant running Hot
Water Recirculating Pump.

Said he is going broke having to keep the hot water running all
the time.

Any of you guys have an experience with this kind of thing?

Many thanks,
-T

I haven't done this yet but I am planning it. I have a community well
for water and individual septic system. Running lots of water down the
drain to get hot water is not especially good for the septic system. My
plan is to use a water solenoid to dump water outside until it measures
a warm temperature. By outside, I was going to dump it into one of the
downspouts so it will follow the underground pipe to where it just
trickles down the hillside. This would be triggered by a motion
detector in the remote bathroom. As soon as the water reaches a warm
temperature, probably 110 or so, it would close the solenoid. I might
put in dual solenoids so if one gets 'stuck' the other will not just let
the water keep running. And, also a 'sanity timer' which would only
allow the solenoid open for a max of a few minutes. It's in my head but
haven't done it yet. In my case, it's not wasting water as the water
goes back to where is came from. Actually, it's the same as dumping it
into the septic tank, except that it will be automated and will not put
a load on the septic leach field.

On 12/27/2016 6:44 PM, T wrote:
Hi All,

A customer sent me this:

Needed: A unit that would allow remote manual operation of a
standard household Hot Water Recirculating Pump from up to
six locations within the house; i.e., kitchen, bathrooms,
utility room, etc., anywhere hot water is needed, eliminating
the need to run the hot water tap until the hot water arrives.
This is the alternative to a timed or constant running Hot
Water Recirculating Pump.

Said he is going broke having to keep the hot water running all
the time.

Any of you guys have an experience with this kind of thing?

Many thanks,
-T


Have an electrician (EEs aren't smart enough for this job) wire the recirculating pump to bathroom motion sensors.

When you enter the bathroom, the motion sensor turns the pump on. By the time you squeeze out a brick or two and you're ready to wash the digested potato salad from under your finger nails, the water should be hot.

On 12/28/2016 8:02 AM, Art Todesco wrote:
On 12/27/2016 6:44 PM, T wrote:
Hi All,

A customer sent me this:

Needed: A unit that would allow remote manual operation of a
standard household Hot Water Recirculating Pump from up to
six locations within the house; i.e., kitchen, bathrooms,
utility room, etc., anywhere hot water is needed, eliminating
the need to run the hot water tap until the hot water arrives.
This is the alternative to a timed or constant running Hot
Water Recirculating Pump.

Said he is going broke having to keep the hot water running all
the time.

Any of you guys have an experience with this kind of thing?

Many thanks,
-T

I haven't done this yet but I am planning it. I have a community well
for water and individual septic system. Running lots of water down the
drain to get hot water is not especially good for the septic system. My
plan is to use a water solenoid to dump water outside until it measures
a warm temperature. By outside, I was going to dump it into one of the
downspouts so it will follow the underground pipe to where it just
trickles down the hillside. This would be triggered by a motion
detector in the remote bathroom. As soon as the water reaches a warm
temperature, probably 110 or so, it would close the solenoid. I might
put in dual solenoids so if one gets 'stuck' the other will not just let
the water keep running. And, also a 'sanity timer' which would only
allow the solenoid open for a max of a few minutes. It's in my head but
haven't done it yet. In my case, it's not wasting water as the water
goes back to where is came from. Actually, it's the same as dumping it
into the septic tank, except that it will be automated and will not put
a load on the septic leach field.

It almost sounds as if the OP and you are looking for wet (and hot)
version of a "perpetual motion machine"

Why not just go with a Watts recirculating pump and install the bypass
at EACH point of use rather than just the furthest point from the hot
water heater?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Hot-Water-Recirculating-System-with-Built-In-Timer-500800/100426993
or http://tinyurl.com/jz6l92o

The electrical draw is nominal, installation relatively easy for a
homeowner with moderate skill set, and we waste no water.

If you REALLY want to be anal about it and not have it run other than
when you decide you want it running NOW, you can jerry-rig a wireless
remote to the unit and put a transmitter, like a garage door opener,
near each point of use.

I installed one several years ago and it's worked just fine. We have
ours on the built-in timer with a good-sized window of when we
anticipate we're most likely to want hot water available at the tap
immediately.

On Wed, 28 Dec 2016 13:28:16 +0000, Stormin' Norman
wrote:

On Tue, 27 Dec 2016 15:44:45 -0800, T wrote:

Hi All,

A customer sent me this:

Needed: A unit that would allow remote manual operation of a
standard household Hot Water Recirculating Pump from up to
six locations within the house; i.e., kitchen, bathrooms,
utility room, etc., anywhere hot water is needed, eliminating
the need to run the hot water tap until the hot water arrives.
This is the alternative to a timed or constant running Hot
Water Recirculating Pump.

Said he is going broke having to keep the hot water running all
the time.

Any of you guys have an experience with this kind of thing?


If the goal is to save energy and waste as little water as possible
while at the same time having warm - hot water available quickly, then
I would ensure the hot water pipes are as well insulated as possible
and put a timer on the pump and try running it for 5 minutes every 30
- 60 minutes. That will keep warm water in the pipes but not run the
pump continuously and save a tremendous amount of energy.

The wasteful aspect of the above solution is you will be dumping the
cool water from the pipes back into the hot water heater, reducing the
temperature causing it to fire up.

This should give your customer a good ROI with a reasonable compromise
in function and not represent a huge project.

If you want to give him exactly what he asked for there exist remote
control AC outlets, install one for the pump and buy multiple remotes.
I don't think this is a great solution as you will either need to put
a run timer on the pump or the customer will need to remember to shut
off the pump when he is finished, this would be a problem when washing
dishes or clothes. It would also mean he will have to wait for the
water to circulate and or waste the water that has been sitting in the
pipes.


The bottom line on these things is they save water and waste energy in
the summer time. In the winter you are heating the house anyway so the
heat is not wasted. (in places where you heat the house in the winter)
You can get very high efficiency pumps so that is moot and again the
energy ends up heating your house anyway.
Summer with the A/C on is the worst case lose/lose to save a little
water. It still may be worth doing if you are in a dry place like
California where they are basically out of water but energy is
expensive there too.
Remember we will run out of water long before we run out of oil.

micky wrote:

OTOH, your dishes don't scream when they get cold water splashed on
them.

On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 5:44:49 PM UTC-6, T wrote:
Hi All,

A customer sent me this:

Needed: A unit that would allow remote manual operation of a
standard household Hot Water Recirculating Pump from up to
six locations within the house; i.e., kitchen, bathrooms,
utility room, etc., anywhere hot water is needed, eliminating
the need to run the hot water tap until the hot water arrives.
This is the alternative to a timed or constant running Hot
Water Recirculating Pump.

Said he is going broke having to keep the hot water running all
the time.

Any of you guys have an experience with this kind of thing?

Many thanks,
-T

Convenience always costs more. Like a convenience store, the prices are higher. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Costly Monster

On 12/28/2016 9:02 AM, Art Todesco wrote:

I haven't done this yet but I am planning it. I have a community well
for water and individual septic system. Running lots of water down the
drain to get hot water is not especially good for the septic system. My
plan is to use a water solenoid to dump water outside until it measures
a warm temperature. By outside, I was going to dump it into one of the
downspouts so it will follow the underground pipe to where it just
trickles down the hillside. This would be triggered by a motion
detector in the remote bathroom. As soon as the water reaches a warm
temperature, probably 110 or so, it would close the solenoid. I might
put in dual solenoids so if one gets 'stuck' the other will not just let
the water keep running. And, also a 'sanity timer' which would only
allow the solenoid open for a max of a few minutes. It's in my head but
haven't done it yet. In my case, it's not wasting water as the water
goes back to where is came from. Actually, it's the same as dumping it
into the septic tank, except that it will be automated and will not put
a load on the septic leach field.

Sounds complex and wasteful just to get a little hot water. Hook the
toilet to the hot. Flush and the hot water will be inches from the
faucet.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Sounds complex and wasteful just to get a little hot water. Hook the
toilet to the hot. Flush and the hot water will be inches from the
faucet.

Always a trade-off between energy and water use. This solution by the way, can
be used where a sweating toilet tank is a problem.

On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 7:24:34 PM UTC-5, Tony944 wrote:
"T" wrote in message news
Hi All,

A customer sent me this:

Needed: A unit that would allow remote manual operation of a
standard household Hot Water Recirculating Pump from up to
six locations within the house; i.e., kitchen, bathrooms,
utility room, etc., anywhere hot water is needed, eliminating
the need to run the hot water tap until the hot water arrives.
This is the alternative to a timed or constant running Hot
Water Recirculating Pump.

Said he is going broke having to keep the hot water running all
the time.

Any of you guys have an experience with this kind of thing?

Many thanks,
-T

Number one You should consider cost. Cost for installation and cost heating
water because running all the time heat loses through a pipes, will need to
be made up at all time. Unless you go into sophistication with regulators,
high temperature pump and pressure switches Tst. ETC. And Perhaps high
temperature Silicon impregnated foam Insulation. You are asking for very
expansive setup.

Systems like that are readily available and don't cost a fortune either.
I've even seen them sold in Costco. "High temp impregnated foam insulation"?
ROFL Where do you come up with this stuff?

The simplest systems use a pump located at the farthest point.
It includes a temp sensor, so it only runs enough to keep the
water at the desired temp. Some have timers so that they only
run at times when water use is expected.

The big drawback is that unless you have a return line, these systems
pump the water back into the cold water side. So any faucet on
that cold water line, be it the kitchen sink, an ice maker, etc
will at times have stale hot water in them when water is first drawn.

On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 at 9:30:49 AM UTC-5, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 12/28/2016 8:02 AM, Art Todesco wrote:
On 12/27/2016 6:44 PM, T wrote:
Hi All,

A customer sent me this:

Needed: A unit that would allow remote manual operation of a
standard household Hot Water Recirculating Pump from up to
six locations within the house; i.e., kitchen, bathrooms,
utility room, etc., anywhere hot water is needed, eliminating
the need to run the hot water tap until the hot water arrives.
This is the alternative to a timed or constant running Hot
Water Recirculating Pump.

Said he is going broke having to keep the hot water running all
the time.

Any of you guys have an experience with this kind of thing?

Many thanks,
-T

I haven't done this yet but I am planning it. I have a community well
for water and individual septic system. Running lots of water down the
drain to get hot water is not especially good for the septic system. My
plan is to use a water solenoid to dump water outside until it measures
a warm temperature. By outside, I was going to dump it into one of the
downspouts so it will follow the underground pipe to where it just
trickles down the hillside. This would be triggered by a motion
detector in the remote bathroom. As soon as the water reaches a warm
temperature, probably 110 or so, it would close the solenoid. I might
put in dual solenoids so if one gets 'stuck' the other will not just let
the water keep running. And, also a 'sanity timer' which would only
allow the solenoid open for a max of a few minutes. It's in my head but
haven't done it yet. In my case, it's not wasting water as the water
goes back to where is came from. Actually, it's the same as dumping it
into the septic tank, except that it will be automated and will not put
a load on the septic leach field.

It almost sounds as if the OP and you are looking for wet (and hot)
version of a "perpetual motion machine"

Why not just go with a Watts recirculating pump and install the bypass
at EACH point of use rather than just the furthest point from the hot
water heater?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Hot-Water-Recirculating-System-with-Built-In-Timer-500800/100426993
or http://tinyurl.com/jz6l92o


Bingo. Some people act like this is something that's never been done
before, is hugely expensive, impractical, etc. Like I said, Costco
even sold them at one point.





The electrical draw is nominal, installation relatively easy for a
homeowner with moderate skill set, and we waste no water.

If you REALLY want to be anal about it and not have it run other than
when you decide you want it running NOW, you can jerry-rig a wireless
remote to the unit and put a transmitter, like a garage door opener,
near each point of use.


If you want to get creative a motion sensor that activated it when
someone walked into the bathroom would be ideal.



I installed one several years ago and it's worked just fine. We have
ours on the built-in timer with a good-sized window of when we
anticipate we're most likely to want hot water available at the tap
immediately.

Seems reasonable to me. My main beef with them is that without a
separate return line you wind up pumping tepid water from the hot
side into the cold line. And anyone pulling water from that line
will get it. If it's for a drink, the kitchen, ice maker, I wouldn't
like that aspect.

On 12/28/2016 4:18 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 at 9:30:49 AM UTC-5, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 12/28/2016 8:02 AM, Art Todesco wrote:
On 12/27/2016 6:44 PM, T wrote:
Hi All,

[SNIP]

It almost sounds as if the OP and you are looking for wet (and hot)
version of a "perpetual motion machine"

Why not just go with a Watts recirculating pump and install the bypass
at EACH point of use rather than just the furthest point from the hot
water heater?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Hot-Water-Recirculating-System-with-Built-In-Timer-500800/100426993
or http://tinyurl.com/jz6l92o


Bingo. Some people act like this is something that's never been done
before, is hugely expensive, impractical, etc. Like I said, Costco
even sold them at one point.




[SNIP II]

Seems reasonable to me. My main beef with them is that without a
separate return line you wind up pumping tepid water from the hot
side into the cold line. And anyone pulling water from that line
will get it. If it's for a drink, the kitchen, ice maker, I wouldn't
like that aspect.

I guess that I could have mentioned that, but in our house it's a
non-issue. Since we have softened water, the only water we drink in any
quantity (other than a quick swish of a small cup when brushing teeth)
is from an unsoftened water tap in the kitchen or from the ice
maker/water dispenser in the refrigerator. Both of those lines are hard
water and, thus, out of the loop.

Uncle Monster wrote:

On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 5:44:49 PM UTC-6, T wrote:

A customer sent me this:

Needed: A unit that would allow remote manual operation of a
standard household Hot Water Recirculating Pump from up to
six locations within the house; i.e., kitchen, bathrooms,
utility room, etc., anywhere hot water is needed, eliminating
the need to run the hot water tap until the hot water arrives.
This is the alternative to a timed or constant running Hot
Water Recirculating Pump.

Said he is going broke having to keep the hot water running all
the time.

Any of you guys have an experience with this kind of thing?

Many thanks,
-T

Convenience always costs more. Like a convenience store, the prices are higher. ?(?)?

[8~{} Uncle Costly Monster

I read all the replies to this IMO brain-dead, overly-complex and
highly-costly method to solve a simple problem.

The easy cost-effective solution is not to move heated water but
(presuming you can) move the power source. In my case it's gas. If you
have electric it's already there. Oil? Wake up to the 21st century.

Place the water heater in close proximity to the point of use. For my
main bathroom it's in a closet underneath. For the kitchen there's
another one in the basement right below. For the second bathroom it's
on the same floor in the next room (another closet). I also have them
plumbed so that any one heater can provide hot water for the entire
house in case one or even two break down.

I'm usually the first up in the morning and when I go in for my shower
I turn on the water, take off my gown, and lay out the floor mat. By
this time the water is steaming. 15 seconds maybe.

This setup also allows for two people to have a shower at the same
time and a third can run the dishwasher with no diminution in volume.

On 12/28/2016 8:24 PM, wrote:

I had old steel pipes with a lot of deposits and low volume. I
finally gathered up some CPVC 1/2 inch plastic pipe/fittings and a can
of glue and bit the bullet. I crawled under the house and ran a line
almost straight from the hot water tank to the kitchen sink. Now it
takes 9 seconds or less than a quart of water to get hot water at the
kitchen sink or dishwasher. The bathroom takes a while longer, no big
deal since the toilet paper holder has a radio.
Indoor plumbing, what a country!

On 12/28/2016 9:24 PM, wrote:
I read all the replies to this IMO brain-dead, overly-complex and
highly-costly method to solve a simple problem.

The easy cost-effective solution is not to move heated water but
(presuming you can) move the power source. In my case it's gas. If you
have electric it's already there. Oil? Wake up to the 21st century.

Place the water heater in close proximity to the point of use. For my
main bathroom it's in a closet underneath. For the kitchen there's
another one in the basement right below. For the second bathroom it's
on the same floor in the next room (another closet). I also have them
plumbed so that any one heater can provide hot water for the entire
house in case one or even two break down.


Before you break your arm patting yourself on the back, read the original requirements. The OP was looking to save money over a continuously running loop system. How does installing up to 6 water heaters, each with their own standby losses, save
operating cost?

On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 10:38:26 AM UTC-5, Penney Buck wrote:
On 12/28/2016 9:24 PM, wrote:
I read all the replies to this IMO brain-dead, overly-complex and
highly-costly method to solve a simple problem.

The easy cost-effective solution is not to move heated water but
(presuming you can) move the power source. In my case it's gas. If you
have electric it's already there. Oil? Wake up to the 21st century.

Place the water heater in close proximity to the point of use. For my
main bathroom it's in a closet underneath. For the kitchen there's
another one in the basement right below. For the second bathroom it's
on the same floor in the next room (another closet). I also have them
plumbed so that any one heater can provide hot water for the entire
house in case one or even two break down.


Before you break your arm patting yourself on the back, read the original requirements. The OP was looking to save money over a continuously running loop system. How does installing up to 6 water heaters, each with their own standby losses, save
operating cost?

And what makes anyone think that there is room, it's practical, to put
six water heaters in a typical house?

On Thu, 29 Dec 2016 09:49:51 -0800 (PST)
trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 10:38:26 AM UTC-5, Penney Buck
wrote:
On 12/28/2016 9:24 PM, wrote:
I read all the replies to this IMO brain-dead, overly-complex and
highly-costly method to solve a simple problem.

The easy cost-effective solution is not to move heated water but
(presuming you can) move the power source. In my case it's gas.
If you have electric it's already there. Oil? Wake up to the 21st
century.

Place the water heater in close proximity to the point of use.
For my main bathroom it's in a closet underneath. For the kitchen
there's another one in the basement right below. For the second
bathroom it's on the same floor in the next room (another
closet). I also have them plumbed so that any one heater can
provide hot water for the entire house in case one or even two
break down.


Before you break your arm patting yourself on the back, read the
original requirements. The OP was looking to save money over a
continuously running loop system. How does installing up to 6
water heaters, each with their own standby losses, save operating
cost?

And what makes anyone think that there is room, it's practical, to put
six water heaters in a typical house?

Do come to the 21st century ...tankless heaters are small
and awesome...electric or gas....**** you are so busy cry about
hillary getting her sick ass beat...you have lost total contact

On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 at 9:24:56 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Uncle Monster wrote:

On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 5:44:49 PM UTC-6, T wrote:

A customer sent me this:

Needed: A unit that would allow remote manual operation of a
standard household Hot Water Recirculating Pump from up to
six locations within the house; i.e., kitchen, bathrooms,
utility room, etc., anywhere hot water is needed, eliminating
the need to run the hot water tap until the hot water arrives.
This is the alternative to a timed or constant running Hot
Water Recirculating Pump.

Said he is going broke having to keep the hot water running all
the time.

Any of you guys have an experience with this kind of thing?

Many thanks,
-T

Convenience always costs more. Like a convenience store, the prices are higher. ?(?)?

[8~{} Uncle Costly Monster

I read all the replies to this IMO brain-dead, overly-complex and
highly-costly method to solve a simple problem.

The easy cost-effective solution is not to move heated water but
(presuming you can) move the power source. In my case it's gas. If you
have electric it's already there. Oil? Wake up to the 21st century.

The electric is already where? If you had installed 3 electric WH's
would the access to the power have already been where you needed it?
How much wiring do you have in your closets?

Did you run gas lines to all 3 locations? Did you include that cost
in the pay-back calculations along with the cost of the 3 WH's and the
cost of 3 standby losses? Remember, the main goal of the OP is to
save money, not just have instant hot water at every fixture.


Place the water heater in close proximity to the point of use. For my
main bathroom it's in a closet underneath. For the kitchen there's
another one in the basement right below. For the second bathroom it's
on the same floor in the next room (another closet). I also have them
plumbed so that any one heater can provide hot water for the entire
house in case one or even two break down.

I'm usually the first up in the morning and when I go in for my shower
I turn on the water, take off my gown, and lay out the floor mat. By
this time the water is steaming. 15 seconds maybe.

This setup also allows for two people to have a shower at the same
time and a third can run the dishwasher with no diminution in volume.

On Thu, 29 Dec 2016 09:49:51 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 10:38:26 AM UTC-5, Penney Buck wrote:
On 12/28/2016 9:24 PM, wrote:
I read all the replies to this IMO brain-dead, overly-complex and
highly-costly method to solve a simple problem.

The easy cost-effective solution is not to move heated water but
(presuming you can) move the power source. In my case it's gas. If you
have electric it's already there. Oil? Wake up to the 21st century.

Place the water heater in close proximity to the point of use. For my
main bathroom it's in a closet underneath. For the kitchen there's
another one in the basement right below. For the second bathroom it's
on the same floor in the next room (another closet). I also have them
plumbed so that any one heater can provide hot water for the entire
house in case one or even two break down.


Before you break your arm patting yourself on the back, read the original requirements. The OP was looking to save money over a continuously running loop system. How does installing up to 6 water heaters, each with their own standby losses, save
operating cost?

And what makes anyone think that there is room, it's practical, to put
six water heaters in a typical house?
Most houses do not have that many wet walls. It may be fairly easy to
break the hot water line at the far end of the house for a small
heater.
You could also put a 240v element in a smaller 120v heater so the
electrical requirements would be cut by 3/4. Recovery time would not
be important in an application like this. If you insulated this well,
it might not cost that much.

burfordTjustice wrote:

tankless heaters are small
and awesome...electric or gas

They may be awesome, but they aren't economical. They cost more to install and
more to maintain than storage heaters. They do have benefits - essentially
unlimited supply and less installation space, but you will pay more.

DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 at 9:24:56 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Uncle Monster wrote:

On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 5:44:49 PM UTC-6, T wrote:

I read all the replies to this IMO brain-dead, overly-complex and
highly-costly method to solve a simple problem.

The easy cost-effective solution is not to move heated water but
(presuming you can) move the power source. In my case it's gas. If you
have electric it's already there. Oil? Wake up to the 21st century.

The electric is already where? If you had installed 3 electric WH's
would the access to the power have already been where you needed it?
How much wiring do you have in your closets?

Where? At the house. Poorly worded perhaps, but my point was that some
people can't get NG, Propane costs too much, and oil lines are out of
the question.

Did you run gas lines to all 3 locations?

I have gas lines in every room in the house and in the case of the
bathrooms I was remodeling them so I was running all new electricity,
all new gas and new DWV. The heater and associated supply lines were
already there for the basement/cellar.

Did you include that cost
in the pay-back calculations along with the cost of the 3 WH's and the
cost of 3 standby losses? Remember, the main goal of the OP is to
save money, not just have instant hot water at every fixture.

It's not just to have instant hot water; it's to avoid complex and
expensive labor if anything breaks down as I know it will. My sons and
I can replace a WH in about two hours including buying it and picking
it up. The point of three WH's is also to avoid the dreaded "anxious
buyer and rapacious and non-anxious seller" syndrome. The plumbers and
even the big box stores know they've got you over a barrel when they
hear that your WH is kaput. No concessions whatsoever. You pay top
dollar and delivery is "When we feel like it."

I maintain the same policy with all appliances: two washer/dryers, two
refrigerators, two dishwashers, back-up heaters (gas) in all major
rooms, and window air conditioners so I always have at least one cool
room. The only thing I don't have in duplicate (at least) is the base
supply (gas and electricity) but they're too costly and hard to
install.

On 12/28/2016 11:00 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Hook the toilet to the hot. Flush and the hot water will be inches from
the faucet.

You funny bunny!

:-)

No one actually try this. The hot water will crack
a cold porcelain toilet.

On 12/27/2016 09:19 PM, HerHusband wrote:
Needed: A unit that would allow remote manual operation of a
standard household Hot Water Recirculating Pump from up to
six locations within the house; i.e., kitchen, bathrooms,
utility room, etc., anywhere hot water is needed, eliminating
the need to run the hot water tap until the hot water arrives.
This is the alternative to a timed or constant running Hot
Water Recirculating Pump.
Said he is going broke having to keep the hot water running all
the time.
Any of you guys have an experience with this kind of thing?

Our water heater is about 40 feet from our master bath. Without a pump it
takes about two minutes for hot water to reach the shower. That's a lot
of water going down the drain just waiting for hot water.

So, I installed a simple hot water recirculating system in our house. The
pump is located at the hot water heater, and I have a small 1/2" line
that returns back from the furthest shower. With the pump running we get
hot water in less than 5 seconds.

Our pump is on a timer and only runs a few hours in the morning, and a
few hours in the evening, during the times we are most likely to need hot
water. Our pipes are located below the floor, but above the insulation.
So any heat loss just helps heat the house. We are all electric (heat,
hot water, lighting, etc.) and I have not noticed any significant
increase in our power usage compared to before we installed the
recirculating pump.

You could certainly install manual switches in each room instead of using
a timer. However, if the pump is still back at the water heater, you'll
still have to wait for the water to reach the faucet whether it's pushed
by the pump or standard water pressure. The point of the recirculating
pump is hot water is already at the fixture ready to go.

If the pipes are accessible, you could reduce heat loss by installing
foam pipe insulation.

You might be able to relocate the water heater so it is closer to the
rooms that use hot water the most (typically bathrooms).

Or, you could install a second water heater to serve rooms on the other
side of the house.

You could also install small point of use water heaters. This could give
you 5 gallons or so of hot water for things like washing hands, or
rinsing plates. If you need more hot water than that, you would have to
wait for the hot water to reach the fixture from the main water heater.

Of course, you would need to run new wiring and plumbing if you add or
relocate water heaters.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com



Thank you! I forwarded the advice on to the customer

And what makes anyone think that there is room, it's practical, to put
six water heaters in a typical house?

There are plenty of small water heaters that are designed to be placed in a
cabinet or under a sink, such as this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-2-7-Gal...ric-Mini-Tank-
Heater/dp/B0148O658Y

Obviously, a small heater like that isn't going to supply all of your hot
water, but it would take care of most quick tasks. Washing your hands,
rinsing a dish, etc.

You could certainly install six of these small heaters in most houses, but
it wouldn't make financial sense. Six small heaters would cost $960, not to
mention the electrical and plumbing upgrades needed to support them.

A traditional recirculating system is easier to use, takes up less space,
and would probably be cheaper in the long run.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 5:19:07 PM UTC-5,

Did you run gas lines to all 3 locations?

I have gas lines in every room in the house


Now that is very unusual and costly. And even if you do have gas in every
room, I would expect that venting gas water heaters in any room
would not be trivial.

trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 5:19:07 PM UTC-5,

Did you run gas lines to all 3 locations?

I have gas lines in every room in the house


Now that is very unusual and costly. And even if you do have gas in every
room, I would expect that venting gas water heaters in any room
would not be trivial.


I didn't run them. The house was built in the late-1800's/early-1900's
and all rooms were lit by gas, the latest and greatest at the time.
Subsequent modifications were just to cap the gas pipes at the point
they exit the wall and install electric light beside them. The gas was
also used for heating with individual gas fires in most fireplaces.
Somewhat unsafe given that it was coal gas, the gas stoves lacked
pilot lights, and I don't think they had even invented oxygen
depletion sensors at the time. I still have one (unused) in one
bathroom.

As to venting the gas WH's, not too expensive. All those fireplaces
had chimneys which, when open, provided good draft. But even if you
didn't have easy access to a chimney a hole drilled in the wall will
provide sufficient venting provided you install a "Power Vent" WH
which cost about $200 more than a regular generic. I did this in the
main bathroom. I could have installed one that not only vents the WH
but also pulls in combustion air from outside but IIRC that would have
added $400 or so.

On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 10:07:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 5:19:07 PM UTC-5,

Did you run gas lines to all 3 locations?

I have gas lines in every room in the house


Now that is very unusual and costly. And even if you do have gas in every
room, I would expect that venting gas water heaters in any room
would not be trivial.


I didn't run them. The house was built in the late-1800's/early-1900's
and all rooms were lit by gas, the latest and greatest at the time.
Subsequent modifications were just to cap the gas pipes at the point
they exit the wall and install electric light beside them. The gas was
also used for heating with individual gas fires in most fireplaces.
Somewhat unsafe given that it was coal gas, the gas stoves lacked
pilot lights, and I don't think they had even invented oxygen
depletion sensors at the time. I still have one (unused) in one
bathroom.

As to venting the gas WH's, not too expensive. All those fireplaces
had chimneys which, when open, provided good draft. But even if you
didn't have easy access to a chimney a hole drilled in the wall will
provide sufficient venting provided you install a "Power Vent" WH
which cost about $200 more than a regular generic. I did this in the
main bathroom. I could have installed one that not only vents the WH
but also pulls in combustion air from outside but IIRC that would have
added $400 or so.

You do realize that you're talking about a very unusual house.
What percent of housing do you think has gas run to every room
for lighting because it's from the 1800s? I'd suspect very
few that had it, still have it. And I'd also wonder about the
safety of gas piping that old. And putting in a vent for a
water heater isn't nearly as simple as you make it sound. If
you get lucky and there is a closet or similar location on an outside
wall and that outside wall is not objectionable for a vent, then
it's easy. But even then, you lose the closet. Want to give up
your bathroom closet? And if it's not an outside wall or the
wall is on the front of the house, then it gets difficult or
impossible real fast.