True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

(Another Ask This Old House inspired question)

On 2/11/2012 2:39 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

(Another Ask This Old House inspired question)

It eliminates the waste by providing near instant hot water

On 2/11/2012 1:39 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

(Another Ask This Old House inspired question)

unless it:
a. runs all the time or
b. is a passive gravity system

the whole idea of the passive system which will work in any house with a
water heater below the level the fixtures are on, is INSTANT hot water.
We had it introduced to us in 1970 when my parents built on to their
house. It worked (and still works) great!


--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Feb 11, 2:48*pm, RBM wrote:
On 2/11/2012 2:39 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

(Another Ask This Old House inspired question)

It eliminates the waste by providing near instant hot water

How?

Here's the situation shown on Ask This Old House:

The homeowner had a tankless water heater installed. It was installed
at the opposite end of the house from the second floor bathroom and
the plumber used 3/4" pipe from the unit to the bathroom. The
homeowner used a stop watch to show that it took a full minute to
drain all of the cold water out of the pipe before there was hot water
at the fixture.

A recirculating pump with a push-button control (and a remote for a
second bathroom) was installed under the bathroom sink.

How would a recirculating pump speed up the emptying of the pipes? It
still has to pull all of the cold water out of the pipes before hot
water could reach the faucet. Does it move the water at a rate much
faster than the normal water pressure in the house can move it? If so,
wouldn't that faster flow rate be too fast for the tankless water
heater to heat it up?

DerbyDad03 wrote:
True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?


If the pump pumps more water through the pipe than your low flow faucet passes,
it will decrease the time. So it depends on the pump you choose, in relation to
the faucet.

On 2/11/2012 3:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Feb 11, 2:48 pm, wrote:
On 2/11/2012 2:39 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

(Another Ask This Old House inspired question)

It eliminates the waste by providing near instant hot water

How?

Here's the situation shown on Ask This Old House:

The homeowner had a tankless water heater installed. It was installed
at the opposite end of the house from the second floor bathroom and
the plumber used 3/4" pipe from the unit to the bathroom. The
homeowner used a stop watch to show that it took a full minute to
drain all of the cold water out of the pipe before there was hot water
at the fixture.

A recirculating pump with a push-button control (and a remote for a
second bathroom) was installed under the bathroom sink.

How would a recirculating pump speed up the emptying of the pipes? It
still has to pull all of the cold water out of the pipes before hot
water could reach the faucet. Does it move the water at a rate much
faster than the normal water pressure in the house can move it? If so,
wouldn't that faster flow rate be too fast for the tankless water
heater to heat it up?

I don't know that one would work with a tankless heater because the
tankless needs flow for the heat to come on. The type of loop I
generally see is connected to a standard hot water tank. It has a bronze
circulator pump controlled by an aquastat. In circulating the hot water
off of the top of the tank, it keeps the entire loop hot

In article ,
DerbyDad03 wrote:

It eliminates the waste by providing near instant hot water

How?

Here's the situation shown on Ask This Old House:

The homeowner had a tankless water heater installed. It was installed
at the opposite end of the house from the second floor bathroom and
the plumber used 3/4" pipe from the unit to the bathroom. The
homeowner used a stop watch to show that it took a full minute to
drain all of the cold water out of the pipe before there was hot water
at the fixture.

A recirculating pump with a push-button control (and a remote for a
second bathroom) was installed under the bathroom sink.

How would a recirculating pump speed up the emptying of the pipes? It
still has to pull all of the cold water out of the pipes before hot
water could reach the faucet. Does it move the water at a rate much
faster than the normal water pressure in the house can move it? If so,
wouldn't that faster flow rate be too fast for the tankless water
heater to heat it up?

when watching that episode it took approximately 60 seconds without the pump and
what seemed to me to be much, much less time after she pushed the button

of course if the recirculating pump pumps more gpms than the tankless produces
then it doesn't make sense

On Feb 11, 4:09*pm, RBM wrote:
On 2/11/2012 3:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:









On Feb 11, 2:48 pm, *wrote:
On 2/11/2012 2:39 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

(Another Ask This Old House inspired question)

It eliminates the waste by providing near instant hot water

How?

Here's the situation shown on Ask This Old House:

The homeowner had a tankless water heater installed. It was installed
at the opposite end of the house from the second floor bathroom and
the plumber used 3/4" pipe from the unit to the bathroom. The
homeowner used a stop watch to show that it took a full minute to
drain all of the cold water out of the pipe before there was hot water
at the fixture.

A recirculating pump with a push-button control (and a remote for a
second bathroom) was installed under the bathroom sink.

How would a recirculating pump speed up the emptying of the pipes? It
still has to pull all of the cold water out of the pipes before hot
water could reach the faucet. Does it move the water at a rate much
faster than the normal water pressure in the house can move it? If so,
wouldn't that faster flow rate be too fast for the tankless water
heater to heat it up?

I don't know that one would work with a tankless heater because the
tankless needs flow for the heat to come on. The type of loop I
generally see is connected to a standard hot water tank. It has a bronze
circulator pump controlled by an aquastat. In circulating the hot water
off of the top of the tank, it keeps the entire loop hot

The pump did cause flow since it was pulling water from the pipe
connected to the tankless heater and pushing it down the cold water
pipe.

However, the fact that he installed a button and told her "When you
want hot water, push the button and the pump will come on\" is what
makes me ask the question.

Here's the exact part of the episode that prompted my question:

Before he installed the pump, it took a full minute to get hot water
to the sink. After he installed the pump, he pushed the button and
said "Did you hear the pump turn on?" (homeowner says "Yes") a few
(TV) seconds later he says "OK, now the pump is off." He opened the
faucet and got hot water.

I said to the wife: "BS. It's still going to take a full minute to
empty the pipes. There must have been some hot water in the pipe to
begin with or it wouldn't have gotten to the faucet that quickly."

There was no mention of on/off cycles keeping hot water in the pipes
or a timer or anything like that. Keeping hot water in that length of
3/4 pipe would probably defeat the efficiency gains of using a
tankless heater. OK, maybe not completely, but you see my point.

On Feb 11, 11:39*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

(Another Ask This Old House inspired question)

Depends on how the hot water piping is arranged and whether the pump
runs at command or all the time.

Consider a house that is designed with a hot water loop and the pump
runs 24/7 (or more practically 16/7).
Let's say you have ~ 10 feet of 1/2" copper tubing from the hot water
loop to the faucet.
If the faucet flows about 1 gpm of hot water...... the cold water in
the 10' of copper tube will clear in about 7 seconds.
In this arrangement you reduce wait time AND the amount of cold water
down the drain (about a pint)

If the house is set up with a "chile pepper" style pump that pumps the
cooled hot water back to the water heater or into the local cold water
line on a demand basis..... then evey little or no time will be saved
but water will not be wasted.

A "chile pepper" style pump that is temperature controlled will save
both water & time but will consume more water heating energy (just
like the 24/7 hot water loop but somewhat less).

So.....you can have:
1) hot water fast
2) energy savings
3) water savings

but it's hard to have all three unless you have an instant hot water
heater VERY close to point of use....... it's all about trade offs.

cheers
Bob

On Feb 11, 4:29*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Feb 11, 4:09*pm, RBM wrote:





On 2/11/2012 3:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Feb 11, 2:48 pm, *wrote:
On 2/11/2012 2:39 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

(Another Ask This Old House inspired question)

It eliminates the waste by providing near instant hot water

How?

Here's the situation shown on Ask This Old House:

The homeowner had a tankless water heater installed. It was installed
at the opposite end of the house from the second floor bathroom and
the plumber used 3/4" pipe from the unit to the bathroom. The
homeowner used a stop watch to show that it took a full minute to
drain all of the cold water out of the pipe before there was hot water
at the fixture.

A recirculating pump with a push-button control (and a remote for a
second bathroom) was installed under the bathroom sink.

How would a recirculating pump speed up the emptying of the pipes? It
still has to pull all of the cold water out of the pipes before hot
water could reach the faucet. Does it move the water at a rate much
faster than the normal water pressure in the house can move it? If so,
wouldn't that faster flow rate be too fast for the tankless water
heater to heat it up?

I don't know that one would work with a tankless heater because the
tankless needs flow for the heat to come on. The type of loop I
generally see is connected to a standard hot water tank. It has a bronze
circulator pump controlled by an aquastat. In circulating the hot water
off of the top of the tank, it keeps the entire loop hot

The pump did cause flow since it was pulling water from the pipe
connected to the tankless heater and pushing it down the cold water
pipe.

However, the fact that he installed a button and told her "When you
want hot water, push the button and the pump will come on\" is what
makes me ask the question.

Here's the exact part of the episode that prompted my question:

Before he installed the pump, it took a full minute to get hot water
to the sink. After he installed the pump, he pushed the button and
said "Did you hear the pump turn on?" (homeowner says "Yes") a few
(TV) seconds later he says "OK, now the pump is off." He opened the
faucet and got hot water.

I said to the wife: "BS. It's still going to take a full minute to
empty the pipes. There must have been some hot water in the pipe to
begin with or it wouldn't have gotten to the faucet that quickly."

There was no mention of on/off cycles keeping hot water in the pipes
or a timer or anything like that. Keeping hot water in that length of
3/4 pipe would probably defeat the efficiency gains of using a
tankless heater. OK, maybe not completely, but you see my point.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Agree with RBM. If it's connected to a button, then I
doubt there is going to be a huge difference in the time
it takes for the hot water to arrive. The pump could
move the water a bit faster than just running the tap,
but it's still going to take time to get there.
If it has a timer and temp sensor, then it can have
hot water there during the hours you set it for with
zero wait. Always thought this would be a good
application for a motion sensor. As soon as you
walk in the bathroom it gets the pump going.

On 2/11/2012 4:29 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Feb 11, 4:09 pm, wrote:
On 2/11/2012 3:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:









On Feb 11, 2:48 pm, wrote:
On 2/11/2012 2:39 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

(Another Ask This Old House inspired question)

It eliminates the waste by providing near instant hot water

How?

Here's the situation shown on Ask This Old House:

The homeowner had a tankless water heater installed. It was installed
at the opposite end of the house from the second floor bathroom and
the plumber used 3/4" pipe from the unit to the bathroom. The
homeowner used a stop watch to show that it took a full minute to
drain all of the cold water out of the pipe before there was hot water
at the fixture.

A recirculating pump with a push-button control (and a remote for a
second bathroom) was installed under the bathroom sink.

How would a recirculating pump speed up the emptying of the pipes? It
still has to pull all of the cold water out of the pipes before hot
water could reach the faucet. Does it move the water at a rate much
faster than the normal water pressure in the house can move it? If so,
wouldn't that faster flow rate be too fast for the tankless water
heater to heat it up?

I don't know that one would work with a tankless heater because the
tankless needs flow for the heat to come on. The type of loop I
generally see is connected to a standard hot water tank. It has a bronze
circulator pump controlled by an aquastat. In circulating the hot water
off of the top of the tank, it keeps the entire loop hot

The pump did cause flow since it was pulling water from the pipe
connected to the tankless heater and pushing it down the cold water
pipe.

However, the fact that he installed a button and told her "When you
want hot water, push the button and the pump will come on\" is what
makes me ask the question.

Here's the exact part of the episode that prompted my question:

Before he installed the pump, it took a full minute to get hot water
to the sink. After he installed the pump, he pushed the button and
said "Did you hear the pump turn on?" (homeowner says "Yes") a few
(TV) seconds later he says "OK, now the pump is off." He opened the
faucet and got hot water.

I said to the wife: "BS. It's still going to take a full minute to
empty the pipes. There must have been some hot water in the pipe to
begin with or it wouldn't have gotten to the faucet that quickly."

There was no mention of on/off cycles keeping hot water in the pipes
or a timer or anything like that. Keeping hot water in that length of
3/4 pipe would probably defeat the efficiency gains of using a
tankless heater. OK, maybe not completely, but you see my point.

I see, and wire these in mcmansions. I don't believe the word
"efficient" has anything to do with the process. Impatient, maybe, but
not efficient.

DerbyDad03 wrote:

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

True - but as in most things in life, it's a trade off. A recirculating pump
keeps the water in the hot water line hot so that when you open a faucet on that
line you get hot water immediately and don't have to let the faucet run for a
while.

You can also do things to minimize the energy use. Ours is on a timer so that
hot water is available immediately in the morning and evening. The rest of teh
day you have to run the tap for a period of time. You can also wire push button
timers at each location.

DerbyDad03 wrote:

Does it move the water at a rate much
faster than the normal water pressure in the house can move it?

Modern faucets are infected with Energy Star disease. This means they only pass
water at 2.5gpm, or if they have the particularly virulent Water Sense disease,
1.75gpm.

A recirculating pump can move much more than that.

On Feb 11, 1:39*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.


Many such systems use a sensor or a timer to keep the entire loop of
pipe hot (pipe is of course insulated). I think my approach will be
either a button or maybe a motion detector.

Bob F wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?


If the pump pumps more water through the pipe than your low flow
faucet passes, it will decrease the time. So it depends on the pump
you choose, in relation to the faucet.

FWIW, I have mine set up with a push button on the wall. Push it and the pump
runs for 2 minutes. Walk into the bathroom, and push the button first thing.
Half a minute or so later the water is hot within 2 seconds after you turn on
the faucet.

DerbyDad03 wrote:
True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

(Another Ask This Old House inspired question)


Timers, buttons, pumps, valves we have come a long ways from the old
days when water was heated in buckets on the stove top for the once a
week bath.
I solved my wait for faster hot water in the kitchen by running one
line under the floor to the kitchen sink straight as possible from the
HWT. Looks like its about 25 feet of pipe run now, 1/2 inch CPVC.
instead of maybe 40 feet of old steel pipe that had lots of deposit
build up. I just timed it, 15-20 seconds for the hot water to show up
another 3 seconds for it to be as hot as it's gonna be.
Works for me.

On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 12:10:41 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

snip
Here's the situation shown on Ask This Old House:

The homeowner had a tankless water heater installed. It was installed
at the opposite end of the house from the second floor bathroom and
the plumber used 3/4" pipe from the unit to the bathroom. The
homeowner used a stop watch to show that it took a full minute to
drain all of the cold water out of the pipe before there was hot water
at the fixture.

A recirculating pump with a push-button control (and a remote for a
second bathroom) was installed under the bathroom sink.

How would a recirculating pump speed up the emptying of the pipes? It
still has to pull all of the cold water out of the pipes before hot
water could reach the faucet. Does it move the water at a rate much
faster than the normal water pressure in the house can move it? If so,
wouldn't that faster flow rate be too fast for the tankless water
heater to heat it up?

I think the idea is that you press the button when you first enter the
bathroom. By the time you have... umm.... taken care of business, or
are ready to get in the shower, the pump has done it's job and you
have hot water.

You could also use a timer to run the pump for your normal shower
time, with the button as a secondary trigger. Some of the recirc
pumps sense the water temp and stop pumping when the hot water
arrives, so it wouldn't run continuously during the timed perior.

Could also tie to the light switch or even a motion sensor.

As far as flow rate, you could easily double the rate of a typical
shower head and not be an issue with a tankless, as they are always
sized to handle multiple fixtures at the same time. That would cut the
time in half.

Paul F.

DerbyDad03 wrote in news:c6bf74f6-abd6-4f62-
:

True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the
waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

(Another Ask This Old House inspired question)

A friend of mine has a setup exactly like the one installed in Ask
TOH but with some extras. It is important to understand that it is
NOT a recirculationg pump one would normally think of. It does
recirculate the wayer, but NOT directly back to the water heater,
but vack into the plumbing system of the house. A few years back IIRC
onASkTOH, a recirculating pump was installed for a tank type hot
water heater. That system did send water back to the heater's tank.
(Someone correct me on this if I am wrong)

My friend's contractor gave him this expplanation on using the
system:

The button (and remote button inthe next bathroom) is there for you
to push IN ANTICIPATION of hot water. It causes water to flow thru
the water heater, thus causing the heat exchanger to begin heating
water and then moving toward the point of demand. The cold water it
is displacing is sent back into the house's plumbing system and not
down the drain. My friend's pump is set to shut off when the pump
input water temp is at the desired temperature. He also had an
indicator light (not sure where) put in to indicate pump activity.
(He had a failure of something in the heater such that the heat never
came on and the pump ran on and on, but since it was hidden behind
towels and such, he never heard it running).

The system does save money, but mostly on gas to heat the water, and
less on water coming into the house and then down the drain.

My understanding is that a properly installed circulator both:

1) Reduces time to get hot water from a faucet
2) [therefore.....] reduces waste

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

(Another Ask This Old House inspired question)

Wow, sounds like you're talking about over age 50 prostates. "Only delivers
zzz flow rate, and empties in xxx minutes while standing over the bowl."

I'm soon to be needing one of them recirculating pumps. Cut down on my
prostate time.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Robert Neville" wrote in message
news
Modern faucets are infected with Energy Star disease. This means they only
pass
water at 2.5gpm, or if they have the particularly virulent Water Sense
disease,
1.75gpm.

A recirculating pump can move much more than that.

On Feb 11, 7:39*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

(Another Ask This Old House inspired question)

Large buildings have domestic hot watercirculating pumps.
This is so that a lot of cold water does not have to be drawn before
the hot water becomes available.

However, there are huge heat losses from the hot water pipework as
water is constantly circulated in the same way as a heating system.

On Feb 11, 8:10*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Feb 11, 2:48*pm, RBM wrote:

On 2/11/2012 2:39 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

(Another Ask This Old House inspired question)

It eliminates the waste by providing near instant hot water

How?

Here's the situation shown on Ask This Old House:

The homeowner had a tankless water heater installed. It was installed
at the opposite end of the house from the second floor bathroom and
the plumber used 3/4" pipe from the unit to the bathroom. The
homeowner used a stop watch to show that it took a full minute to
drain all of the cold water out of the pipe before there was hot water
at the fixture.

A recirculating pump with a push-button control (and a remote for a
second bathroom) was installed under the bathroom sink.

How would a recirculating pump speed up the emptying of the pipes? It
still has to pull all of the cold water out of the pipes before hot
water could reach the faucet. Does it move the water at a rate much
faster than the normal water pressure in the house can move it? If so,
wouldn't that faster flow rate be too fast for the tankless water
heater to heat it up?

It is not appropiate to tankless hot water systems, only to stored
systems.

On Feb 12, 2:16*am, harry wrote:
On Feb 11, 8:10*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:





On Feb 11, 2:48*pm, RBM wrote:

On 2/11/2012 2:39 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

(Another Ask This Old House inspired question)

It eliminates the waste by providing near instant hot water

How?

Here's the situation shown on Ask This Old House:

The homeowner had a tankless water heater installed. It was installed
at the opposite end of the house from the second floor bathroom and
the plumber used 3/4" pipe from the unit to the bathroom. The
homeowner used a stop watch to show that it took a full minute to
drain all of the cold water out of the pipe before there was hot water
at the fixture.

A recirculating pump with a push-button control (and a remote for a
second bathroom) was installed under the bathroom sink.

How would a recirculating pump speed up the emptying of the pipes? It
still has to pull all of the cold water out of the pipes before hot
water could reach the faucet. Does it move the water at a rate much
faster than the normal water pressure in the house can move it? If so,
wouldn't that faster flow rate be too fast for the tankless water
heater to heat it up?

It is not appropiate to tankless hot water systems, only to stored
systems.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Iit's just as appropriate to tankless as to storage type
heaters. It's just an issue of where the heater is located. If
you have a storage type at the far end of the house from a
bathroom, it's going to take a long time for hot water to get there.
Replace it with a tankless and you have exactly the same
problem.

How can one guy be wrong on so many things?

On Feb 11, 10:03*pm, John Carter wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote in news:c6bf74f6-abd6-4f62-
:



True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the
waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

(Another Ask This Old House inspired question)

A friend of mine has a setup exactly like the one installed in Ask
TOH but with some extras. It is important to understand that it is
NOT a recirculationg pump one would normally think of. *It does
recirculate the wayer, but NOT directly back to *the water heater,
but vack into the plumbing system of the house.

Which is one of the big problems with them. You wind up with
tepid water from the water heater in the cold water lines. Not
a problem if it's feeding a shower, but if it's the cold water line
for the kitchen that it winds up in, then when you draw what
you think is fresh water you could be in for a surprise. Where
the water winds up depends on the path the water takes
back and what else is on that path.



A few years back IIRC
onASkTOH, a recirculating pump was installed for a tank type hot
water heater. *That system did send water back to the heater's tank.
(Someone correct me on this if I am wrong)

Don't know about TOH, but it's certainly been done. During
construction
it would be very easy to do.




My friend's contractor gave him this expplanation on using the
system:

The button (and remote button inthe next bathroom) is there for you
to push IN ANTICIPATION of hot water. *It causes water to flow thru
the water heater, thus causing the heat exchanger to begin heating
water and then moving toward the point of demand. *The cold water it
is displacing is sent back into the house's plumbing system and not
down the drain. *My friend's pump is set to shut off when the pump
input water temp is at the desired temperature. *He also had an
indicator light (not sure where) put in to indicate pump activity.
(He had a failure of something in the heater such that the heat never
came on and the pump ran on and on, but since it was hidden behind
towels and such, he never heard it running).

The system does save money, but mostly on gas to heat the water, and
less on water coming into the house and then down the drain.

I guess you save some gas from the fact that the water that's been
sitting in the line and is at say 65F goes back to the water heater
instead of using say 50F incoming water. But in the grand scheme
of things, I don't think it amounts to much. And of course if you
use
a timer or keep it available 24/7, then you wind up using more energy.

wrote:
On Feb 11, 10:03 pm, John Carter wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote in news:c6bf74f6-abd6-4f62-
:



True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the
waste caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

(Another Ask This Old House inspired question)

A friend of mine has a setup exactly like the one installed in Ask
TOH but with some extras. It is important to understand that it is
NOT a recirculationg pump one would normally think of. It does
recirculate the wayer, but NOT directly back to the water heater,
but vack into the plumbing system of the house.

Which is one of the big problems with them. You wind up with
tepid water from the water heater in the cold water lines. Not
a problem if it's feeding a shower, but if it's the cold water line
for the kitchen that it winds up in, then when you draw what
you think is fresh water you could be in for a surprise. Where
the water winds up depends on the path the water takes
back and what else is on that path.

That's only a problem if there isn't a second "return" line for the pumped
water.

harry wrote:
On Feb 11, 7:39 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

(Another Ask This Old House inspired question)

Large buildings have domestic hot watercirculating pumps.
This is so that a lot of cold water does not have to be drawn before
the hot water becomes available.

However, there are huge heat losses from the hot water pipework as
water is constantly circulated in the same way as a heating system.

Which, in the winter, is just a little extra heat replaceing heat to be provided
by the furnace. In the summer, it's heat fighting the A/C, if any.

On Feb 12, 8:46*am, "
wrote:
On Feb 12, 2:16*am, harry wrote:









On Feb 11, 8:10*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Feb 11, 2:48*pm, RBM wrote:

On 2/11/2012 2:39 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

(Another Ask This Old House inspired question)

It eliminates the waste by providing near instant hot water

How?

Here's the situation shown on Ask This Old House:

The homeowner had a tankless water heater installed. It was installed
at the opposite end of the house from the second floor bathroom and
the plumber used 3/4" pipe from the unit to the bathroom. The
homeowner used a stop watch to show that it took a full minute to
drain all of the cold water out of the pipe before there was hot water
at the fixture.

A recirculating pump with a push-button control (and a remote for a
second bathroom) was installed under the bathroom sink.

How would a recirculating pump speed up the emptying of the pipes? It
still has to pull all of the cold water out of the pipes before hot
water could reach the faucet. Does it move the water at a rate much
faster than the normal water pressure in the house can move it? If so,
wouldn't that faster flow rate be too fast for the tankless water
heater to heat it up?

It is not appropiate to tankless hot water systems, only to stored
systems.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Iit's just as appropriate to tankless as to storage type
heaters. * It's just an issue of where the heater is located. *If
you have a storage type at the far end of the house from a
bathroom, it's going to take a long time for hot water to get there.
Replace it with a tankless and you have exactly the same
problem.

How can one guy be wrong on so many things?

Practice?

On Feb 11, 2:57*pm, Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/11/2012 1:39 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

(Another Ask This Old House inspired question)

unless it:
a. runs all the time or
b. is a passive gravity system

the whole idea of the passive system which will work in any house with a
water heater below the level the fixtures are on, is INSTANT hot water.
* We had it introduced to us in 1970 when my parents built on to their
house. *It worked (and still works) great!

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

But these waste a lot of heat because they are continuously
circulating. We have a second home in Fl and the water heater is at
one end of the house and 3 bathrooms at the other. it can be a pretty
good wait for the hot water to come up so I installed one that you hit
a switch to call up the hot water. I mounted the switch by the the
light switch in the bedroom figuring this would give the pump a bit of
a head start before you made it to the bathroom.

On 2/12/2012 3:42 PM, JIMMIE wrote:
On Feb 11, 2:57 pm, Steve wrote:
On 2/11/2012 1:39 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

(Another Ask This Old House inspired question)

unless it:
a. runs all the time or
b. is a passive gravity system

the whole idea of the passive system which will work in any house with a
water heater below the level the fixtures are on, is INSTANT hot water.
We had it introduced to us in 1970 when my parents built on to their
house. It worked (and still works) great!

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

But these waste a lot of heat because they are continuously
circulating. We have a second home in Fl and the water heater is at
one end of the house and 3 bathrooms at the other. it can be a pretty
good wait for the hot water to come up so I installed one that you hit
a switch to call up the hot water. I mounted the switch by the the
light switch in the bedroom figuring this would give the pump a bit of
a head start before you made it to the bathroom.

the 'waste' is minimal during cooling season. and zero during heating
season. It's about instant hot water, not about energy. I could really
give a big rats ass if my gas bill goes up by 85 cents a month to have
instant hot. Thanks for your input. The pump setups don't save anything.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

Steve Barker wrote:
the 'waste' is minimal during cooling season. and zero during heating
season. It's about instant hot water, not about energy. I could
really give a big rats ass if my gas bill goes up by 85 cents a month
to have instant hot. Thanks for your input. The pump setups don't
save anything.

Mine certainly does.

On 2/12/2012 6:30 PM, Bob F wrote:
Steve Barker wrote:
the 'waste' is minimal during cooling season. and zero during heating
season. It's about instant hot water, not about energy. I could
really give a big rats ass if my gas bill goes up by 85 cents a month
to have instant hot. Thanks for your input. The pump setups don't
save anything.

Mine certainly does.



i can't imagine what it saves. it's not time or energy.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/12/2012 6:30 PM, Bob F wrote:
Steve Barker wrote:
the 'waste' is minimal during cooling season. and zero during
heating season. It's about instant hot water, not about energy. I
could really give a big rats ass if my gas bill goes up by 85 cents
a month to have instant hot. Thanks for your input. The pump
setups don't save anything.

Mine certainly does.



i can't imagine what it saves. it's not time or energy.

Time and water. Push the button as I enter the bathroom. Water is hot
immediately when I turn on the faucet after using the toilet, with no waste down
the drain.

"Bob F" wrote in message
...
Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/12/2012 6:30 PM, Bob F wrote:
Steve Barker wrote:
the 'waste' is minimal during cooling season. and zero during
heating season. It's about instant hot water, not about energy. I
could really give a big rats ass if my gas bill goes up by 85 cents
a month to have instant hot. Thanks for your input. The pump
setups don't save anything.

Mine certainly does.



i can't imagine what it saves. it's not time or energy.

Time and water. Push the button as I enter the bathroom. Water is hot
immediately when I turn on the faucet after using the toilet, with no
waste down the drain.
Also, if you have a septic system less water down the drain is better for
its longevity.

R

On Feb 12, 5:46*am, "
wrote:
On Feb 12, 2:16*am, harry wrote:









On Feb 11, 8:10*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Feb 11, 2:48*pm, RBM wrote:

On 2/11/2012 2:39 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

(Another Ask This Old House inspired question)

It eliminates the waste by providing near instant hot water

How?

Here's the situation shown on Ask This Old House:

The homeowner had a tankless water heater installed. It was installed
at the opposite end of the house from the second floor bathroom and
the plumber used 3/4" pipe from the unit to the bathroom. The
homeowner used a stop watch to show that it took a full minute to
drain all of the cold water out of the pipe before there was hot water
at the fixture.

A recirculating pump with a push-button control (and a remote for a
second bathroom) was installed under the bathroom sink.

How would a recirculating pump speed up the emptying of the pipes? It
still has to pull all of the cold water out of the pipes before hot
water could reach the faucet. Does it move the water at a rate much
faster than the normal water pressure in the house can move it? If so,
wouldn't that faster flow rate be too fast for the tankless water
heater to heat it up?

It is not appropiate to tankless hot water systems, only to stored
systems.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Iit's just as appropriate to tankless as to storage type
heaters. * It's just an issue of where the heater is located. *If
you have a storage type at the far end of the house from a
bathroom, it's going to take a long time for hot water to get there.
Replace it with a tankless and you have exactly the same
problem.

How can one guy be wrong on so many things?

How can one guy be wrong on so many things?

Consistently faulty thinking?

cheers
Bob

On Feb 12, 8:34*pm, Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/12/2012 6:30 PM, Bob F wrote:

Steve Barker wrote:
the 'waste' is minimal during cooling season. *and zero during heating
season. *It's about instant hot water, not about energy. *I could
really give a big rats ass if my gas bill goes up by 85 cents a month
to have instant hot. *Thanks for your input. *The pump setups don't
save anything.

Mine certainly does.

i can't imagine what it saves. *it's not time or energy.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

In the case of the ATOH situation, it saves a full minute's worth of
water at whatever flow rate the sink faucet is.

On 2/12/2012 10:13 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Feb 12, 8:34 pm, Steve wrote:
On 2/12/2012 6:30 PM, Bob F wrote:

Steve Barker wrote:
the 'waste' is minimal during cooling season. and zero during heating
season. It's about instant hot water, not about energy. I could
really give a big rats ass if my gas bill goes up by 85 cents a month
to have instant hot. Thanks for your input. The pump setups don't
save anything.

Mine certainly does.

i can't imagine what it saves. it's not time or energy.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

In the case of the ATOH situation, it saves a full minute's worth of
water at whatever flow rate the sink faucet is.

if it's a really long run , that might be a half gallon. Not enough
savings to offset having to run that pump.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Feb 12, 6:10*pm, "Bob F" wrote:
harry wrote:
On Feb 11, 7:39 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

(Another Ask This Old House inspired question)

Large buildings have domestic hot watercirculating pumps.
This is so that a lot of cold water does not have to be drawn before
the hot water becomes available.

However, there are huge heat losses from the hot water pipework as
water is constantly circulated in the same way as a heating system.

Which, in the winter, is just a little extra heat replaceing heat to be provided
by the furnace. In the summer, it's heat fighting the A/C, if any.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This is victorian engineered.
The pipework is often not in the living space
The standing losses are typically doubled or trebled.
Big savings can be made if hot water is generated locally and as
required.

On Feb 12, 6:24*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Feb 12, 8:46*am, "
wrote:





On Feb 12, 2:16*am, harry wrote:

On Feb 11, 8:10*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Feb 11, 2:48*pm, RBM wrote:

On 2/11/2012 2:39 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

(Another Ask This Old House inspired question)

It eliminates the waste by providing near instant hot water

How?

Here's the situation shown on Ask This Old House:

The homeowner had a tankless water heater installed. It was installed
at the opposite end of the house from the second floor bathroom and
the plumber used 3/4" pipe from the unit to the bathroom. The
homeowner used a stop watch to show that it took a full minute to
drain all of the cold water out of the pipe before there was hot water
at the fixture.

A recirculating pump with a push-button control (and a remote for a
second bathroom) was installed under the bathroom sink.

How would a recirculating pump speed up the emptying of the pipes? It
still has to pull all of the cold water out of the pipes before hot
water could reach the faucet. Does it move the water at a rate much
faster than the normal water pressure in the house can move it? If so,
wouldn't that faster flow rate be too fast for the tankless water
heater to heat it up?

It is not appropiate to tankless hot water systems, only to stored
systems.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Iit's just as appropriate to tankless as to storage type
heaters. * It's just an issue of where the heater is located. *If
you have a storage type at the far end of the house from a
bathroom, it's going to take a long time for hot water to get there.
Replace it with a tankless and you have exactly the same
problem.

How can one guy be wrong on so many things?

Practice?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well we are talking about American primitives I suppose.

On Feb 12, 9:42*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
On Feb 11, 2:57*pm, Steve Barker wrote:





On 2/11/2012 1:39 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

True or False?

A hot water recirculating pump won't decrease the amount of time it
takes to get hot water to a fixture, it will only eliminate the waste
caused by the water running down the drain.

True, right?

(Another Ask This Old House inspired question)

unless it:
a. runs all the time or
b. is a passive gravity system

the whole idea of the passive system which will work in any house with a
water heater below the level the fixtures are on, is INSTANT hot water.
* We had it introduced to us in 1970 when my parents built on to their
house. *It worked (and still works) great!

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

But these waste a lot of heat because they are continuously
circulating. We have a second home in Fl and the water heater is at
one end of the house and 3 bathrooms at the other. it can be a pretty
good wait for the hot water to come up so I installed one that you hit
a switch to call up the hot water. I mounted the switch by the the
light switch in the bedroom figuring this would give the pump a bit of
a head start before you made it to the bathroom.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Exactly so.

On Feb 13, 5:08*am, Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/12/2012 10:13 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:





On Feb 12, 8:34 pm, Steve *wrote:
On 2/12/2012 6:30 PM, Bob F wrote:

Steve Barker wrote:
the 'waste' is minimal during cooling season. *and zero during heating
season. *It's about instant hot water, not about energy. *I could
really give a big rats ass if my gas bill goes up by 85 cents a month
to have instant hot. *Thanks for your input. *The pump setups don't
save anything.

Mine certainly does.

i can't imagine what it saves. *it's not time or energy.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

In the case of the ATOH situation, it saves a full minute's worth of
water at whatever flow rate the sink faucet is.

if it's a really long run , that might be a half gallon. *Not enough
savings to offset having to run that pump.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If it's a large building, the water might never get hot.
Not appropriate to the domestic house unless your name's Saddam
Hussein.