On 12/31/2016 9:31 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 10:07:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 5:19:07 PM UTC-5,

Did you run gas lines to all 3 locations?

I have gas lines in every room in the house


Now that is very unusual and costly. And even if you do have gas in every
room, I would expect that venting gas water heaters in any room
would not be trivial.


I didn't run them. The house was built in the late-1800's/early-1900's
and all rooms were lit by gas, the latest and greatest at the time.
Subsequent modifications were just to cap the gas pipes at the point
they exit the wall and install electric light beside them. The gas was
also used for heating with individual gas fires in most fireplaces.
Somewhat unsafe given that it was coal gas, the gas stoves lacked
pilot lights, and I don't think they had even invented oxygen
depletion sensors at the time. I still have one (unused) in one
bathroom.

As to venting the gas WH's, not too expensive. All those fireplaces
had chimneys which, when open, provided good draft. But even if you
didn't have easy access to a chimney a hole drilled in the wall will
provide sufficient venting provided you install a "Power Vent" WH
which cost about $200 more than a regular generic. I did this in the
main bathroom. I could have installed one that not only vents the WH
but also pulls in combustion air from outside but IIRC that would have
added $400 or so.

You do realize that you're talking about a very unusual house.
What percent of housing do you think has gas run to every room
for lighting because it's from the 1800s? I'd suspect very
few that had it, still have it. And I'd also wonder about the
safety of gas piping that old. And putting in a vent for a
water heater isn't nearly as simple as you make it sound. If
you get lucky and there is a closet or similar location on an outside
wall and that outside wall is not objectionable for a vent, then
it's easy. But even then, you lose the closet. Want to give up
your bathroom closet? And if it's not an outside wall or the
wall is on the front of the house, then it gets difficult or
impossible real fast.


And even if that old house DID have gas to every room as knucklehead
claims, the lines would likely be smaller than necessary to supply a
sufficient gas flow for a gas HWH let alone a demand water heater. The
capacity of gas lines varies. Think wiring gauge and its ability to
carry 10, 15, 20 amps, etc.

Regardless, somebody has forgotten the OP's desire to accomplish this
mission on the cheap.

On 12/31/2016 5:49 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 12/31/2016 9:31 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 10:07:24 PM UTC-5,
wrote:
trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 5:19:07 PM UTC-5,


Did you run gas lines to all 3 locations?

I have gas lines in every room in the house


Now that is very unusual and costly. And even if you do have gas in
every
room, I would expect that venting gas water heaters in any room
would not be trivial.


I didn't run them. The house was built in the late-1800's/early-1900's
and all rooms were lit by gas, the latest and greatest at the time.
Subsequent modifications were just to cap the gas pipes at the point
they exit the wall and install electric light beside them. The gas was
also used for heating with individual gas fires in most fireplaces.
Somewhat unsafe given that it was coal gas, the gas stoves lacked
pilot lights, and I don't think they had even invented oxygen
depletion sensors at the time. I still have one (unused) in one
bathroom.

As to venting the gas WH's, not too expensive. All those fireplaces
had chimneys which, when open, provided good draft. But even if you
didn't have easy access to a chimney a hole drilled in the wall will
provide sufficient venting provided you install a "Power Vent" WH
which cost about $200 more than a regular generic. I did this in the
main bathroom. I could have installed one that not only vents the WH
but also pulls in combustion air from outside but IIRC that would have
added $400 or so.

You do realize that you're talking about a very unusual house.
What percent of housing do you think has gas run to every room
for lighting because it's from the 1800s? I'd suspect very
few that had it, still have it. And I'd also wonder about the
safety of gas piping that old. And putting in a vent for a
water heater isn't nearly as simple as you make it sound. If
you get lucky and there is a closet or similar location on an outside
wall and that outside wall is not objectionable for a vent, then
it's easy. But even then, you lose the closet. Want to give up
your bathroom closet? And if it's not an outside wall or the
wall is on the front of the house, then it gets difficult or
impossible real fast.


And even if that old house DID have gas to every room as knucklehead
claims, the lines would likely be smaller than necessary to supply a
sufficient gas flow for a gas HWH let alone a demand water heater. The
capacity of gas lines varies. Think wiring gauge and its ability to
carry 10, 15, 20 amps, etc.

Regardless, somebody has forgotten the OP's desire to accomplish this
mission on the cheap.


My grandmother's house had gas to most every room. Going from memory,
it may have been about 3/8". That is large enough for a small heater.
I'm also aware that all the piping was disconnected for at least 60 or
70 years. I'd not trust it.

trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 10:07:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 5:19:07 PM UTC-5,

Did you run gas lines to all 3 locations?

I have gas lines in every room in the house

You do realize that you're talking about a very unusual house.
What percent of housing do you think has gas run to every room
for lighting because it's from the 1800s? I'd suspect very
few that had it, still have it.

Actually a lot in NYC. Based on my experience when looking at houses
before I bought mine gas lighting (unused) was ubiquitous.

And I'd also wonder about the
safety of gas piping that old.

The gas company tested the place for gas leaks (some sort of
smell-o-vision meter) when I moved in. The real estate agent suggested
I report smelling gas so the technician came out for free.

And putting in a vent for a
water heater isn't nearly as simple as you make it sound. If
you get lucky and there is a closet or similar location on an outside
wall and that outside wall is not objectionable for a vent, then
it's easy. But even then, you lose the closet. Want to give up
your bathroom closet? And if it's not an outside wall or the
wall is on the front of the house, then it gets difficult or
impossible real fast.

You don't have to be immediately beside the shower to achieve the
objective.

I don't suggest everyone has the space but if you do, it's a lot
better in the long term.

On 12/27/2016 3:44 PM, T wrote:
Hi All,

A customer sent me this:

Needed: A unit that would allow remote manual operation of a
standard household Hot Water Recirculating Pump from up to
six locations within the house; i.e., kitchen, bathrooms,
utility room, etc., anywhere hot water is needed, eliminating
the need to run the hot water tap until the hot water arrives.
This is the alternative to a timed or constant running Hot
Water Recirculating Pump.

Said he is going broke having to keep the hot water running all
the time.

Any of you guys have an experience with this kind of thing?

Many thanks,
-T


When I built my system. I put in a time delay relay, actuated by a low
voltage push button in each relevant location. I set the relay for a few
seconds longer than the longest time it needs to run to get hot water
where it needs to be.

On 12/28/2016 7:53 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Dec 2016 13:28:16 +0000, Stormin' Norman
wrote:

On Tue, 27 Dec 2016 15:44:45 -0800, T wrote:

Hi All,

A customer sent me this:

Needed: A unit that would allow remote manual operation of a
standard household Hot Water Recirculating Pump from up to
six locations within the house; i.e., kitchen, bathrooms,
utility room, etc., anywhere hot water is needed, eliminating
the need to run the hot water tap until the hot water arrives.
This is the alternative to a timed or constant running Hot
Water Recirculating Pump.

Said he is going broke having to keep the hot water running all
the time.

Any of you guys have an experience with this kind of thing?


If the goal is to save energy and waste as little water as possible
while at the same time having warm - hot water available quickly, then
I would ensure the hot water pipes are as well insulated as possible
and put a timer on the pump and try running it for 5 minutes every 30
- 60 minutes. That will keep warm water in the pipes but not run the
pump continuously and save a tremendous amount of energy.

The wasteful aspect of the above solution is you will be dumping the
cool water from the pipes back into the hot water heater, reducing the
temperature causing it to fire up.

This should give your customer a good ROI with a reasonable compromise
in function and not represent a huge project.

If you want to give him exactly what he asked for there exist remote
control AC outlets, install one for the pump and buy multiple remotes.
I don't think this is a great solution as you will either need to put
a run timer on the pump or the customer will need to remember to shut
off the pump when he is finished, this would be a problem when washing
dishes or clothes. It would also mean he will have to wait for the
water to circulate and or waste the water that has been sitting in the
pipes.


The bottom line on these things is they save water and waste energy in
the summer time. In the winter you are heating the house anyway so the
heat is not wasted. (in places where you heat the house in the winter)
You can get very high efficiency pumps so that is moot and again the
energy ends up heating your house anyway.
Summer with the A/C on is the worst case lose/lose to save a little
water. It still may be worth doing if you are in a dry place like
California where they are basically out of water but energy is
expensive there too.
Remember we will run out of water long before we run out of oil.


Virtually no waste at all with a simple time delay relay that you push a
button to activate when you walk in the bathroom. 20 seconds later you
can turn on the water and it is hot in 1 second.

On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 22:21:32 -0500, wrote:

trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 10:07:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 5:19:07 PM UTC-5,

Did you run gas lines to all 3 locations?

I have gas lines in every room in the house

You do realize that you're talking about a very unusual house.
What percent of housing do you think has gas run to every room
for lighting because it's from the 1800s? I'd suspect very
few that had it, still have it.

Actually a lot in NYC. Based on my experience when looking at houses
before I bought mine gas lighting (unused) was ubiquitous.

And I'd also wonder about the
safety of gas piping that old.

The gas company tested the place for gas leaks (some sort of
smell-o-vision meter) when I moved in. The real estate agent suggested
I report smelling gas so the technician came out for free.

And putting in a vent for a
water heater isn't nearly as simple as you make it sound. If
you get lucky and there is a closet or similar location on an outside
wall and that outside wall is not objectionable for a vent, then
it's easy. But even then, you lose the closet. Want to give up
your bathroom closet? And if it's not an outside wall or the
wall is on the front of the house, then it gets difficult or
impossible real fast.

You don't have to be immediately beside the shower to achieve the
objective.

I don't suggest everyone has the space but if you do, it's a lot
better in the long term.
a 3/8" gas line will run a gas tea kettle - - -