On Wed, 07 Dec 2016 18:04:43 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 21:35:20 -0000 (UTC), Leon Schneider
wrote:

wrote on Wed, 07 Dec 2016 14:57:20 -0500:

You got'er Cotter. Just tighten with a socket wrench.

Thanks.

I wonder which is better *quality*?

I suspect neither is better than the other.

I would "guess" (ASSume) that the one with nuts is *heavier* (which is a
bad thing) and more expensive (another bad thing).

I doubt it seals any better on a steel wheel (guessing again though).

Does it seal better on an alloy wheel?
The aluminum bolt ins are, if anything, only a few gramms heavier
than the rubber ones. They do seal better on boyh steel and alloy
because the rubber seal is compressed much more positively than the
rubber stem, forming a VERY tight seal.They are a bit more expensive -
I think I paid something like $1.50 each for the bolt-ins. Rubber
ones are about $1.30 on e-bay and $2.00 at the tire shop - so it's
pretty much a toss-up - and they last for years.

Curb damage is not an issue with either if you use short stems - and
with expensive alloy rims I stay well away from curbs anyway.
Sorry - I just checked again, and you can buy the chinese rubber
snap-ins for about $0.50 apiece on e-bay - if you don't care what
quality the rubber is.

Leon Schneider wrote:
Paul in Houston TX wrote on Wed, 07 Dec 2016 12:11:05 -0600:

If you're going to be doing tens, hundreds, or thousands of wheels then
get the best tool that you can afford. Usually that means the most expensive.

I appreciate the insight but you hit a sore point with me so please don't
take my diatribe below personally - but I've heard too many people say what
you just said, which I think is the wrong approach entirely.

You don't approach a tool from a cost perspective; you approach a tool from
the quality of results perspective.

I realize you said "usually", so, I agree that you're already on board,
when I say that choosing tool-quality by cost is entirely the wrong logic,
but the other half of what you said is the correct logic, which is to use
the best tool if you need it.

Whether or not it is expensive is completly meaningless (most people simply
*assume* expensive stuff is better becuase it's a simple number and they
can handle numbers but they can't handle myriad technical details when
comparing two different tools).

For example, a 100K dollar alignment system may not be any more accurate
than a $500 alignment system, but it does stuff that the shop needs, e.g.,
it allows dumber people to operate it and it allows hands-free measurements
and it allows cars to be easily ramped on and off and it allows printing of
the results, etc.

None of that has any bearing on the quality of the results and all of that
raises the expense of the machine such that the local morons down the
street think you have to buy an alignment tool for 100K dollars just to get
a "good" alignment.

You can get a good alignment for probably 100 dollars in tools, and
certainly for 500 dollars in tools; but it won't have all that time-saving
stuff (where for a mechanic, time is money).

In contrast to your point, it may very well be that a $100 cellphone gets
you as good an alignment as a $100K alignment tool.

The only thing that matters is the quality of the results.
The cost of the tool isn't a factor in the quality of the results.

To the point, I'm not positive yet because I haven't done it, but I would
bet that the quality of results from using a nail inside the tire valve
when seating it is as good as the quality of results from using that $25
grooved swivel-head lever tool just as the quality of results when removing
the valve with a utility knife is probably as good as the quality of
results when using that fancy tool.

PS: I didn't aim this *at* you, but at the team becuase too many people use
"cost" of things as a "quality" measurement - and it's never the case.
People just use "cost" because they don't understand quality but they
understand numbers such as numbers of dollars. But it's the wrong way of
looking at tools (it's a factor though).

That was a good analysis. Thank you.
My thoughts were from a mechanics viewpoint. I no longer do that work but
did for many years professionally.
What I found was that a $3 wrench would last one or two uses but a similar
$20 wrench would last a life time. I still have my Proto, Snap-On, and Mac
after 40 years and they still work fine. The cheap Chinese junk lasts a week at most.
Poor quality steel, poor quality manufacturing, but they look splendid when first
purchased. I will continue to buy the best if I intend on keeping them.
I buy Chinese junk for use at remote locations for a few days and then
give it away or throw away before I fly home.

On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 21:35:23 -0000 (UTC), Leon Schneider

You can get a good alignment for probably 100 dollars in tools, and
certainly for 500 dollars in tools; but it won't have all that time-saving
stuff (where for a mechanic, time is money).

In contrast to your point, it may very well be that a $100 cellphone gets
you as good an alignment as a $100K alignment tool.

There is a cellphone alignment tool? I have done the string and measuring
tape thing (and generally been more satisfied with it than I have been by
sending it to shops with expensive tools operated by high school kids),
but I'd be willing to spend a couple hundred dollars to do a better job.
Tell me more!
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Wed, 07 Dec 2016 17:42:10 -0600, Paul in Houston TX
wrote:

Leon Schneider wrote:
Paul in Houston TX wrote on Wed, 07 Dec 2016 12:11:05 -0600:

If you're going to be doing tens, hundreds, or thousands of wheels then
get the best tool that you can afford. Usually that means the most expensive.

I appreciate the insight but you hit a sore point with me so please don't
take my diatribe below personally - but I've heard too many people say what
you just said, which I think is the wrong approach entirely.

You don't approach a tool from a cost perspective; you approach a tool from
the quality of results perspective.

I realize you said "usually", so, I agree that you're already on board,
when I say that choosing tool-quality by cost is entirely the wrong logic,
but the other half of what you said is the correct logic, which is to use
the best tool if you need it.

Whether or not it is expensive is completly meaningless (most people simply
*assume* expensive stuff is better becuase it's a simple number and they
can handle numbers but they can't handle myriad technical details when
comparing two different tools).

For example, a 100K dollar alignment system may not be any more accurate
than a $500 alignment system, but it does stuff that the shop needs, e.g.,
it allows dumber people to operate it and it allows hands-free measurements
and it allows cars to be easily ramped on and off and it allows printing of
the results, etc.

None of that has any bearing on the quality of the results and all of that
raises the expense of the machine such that the local morons down the
street think you have to buy an alignment tool for 100K dollars just to get
a "good" alignment.

You can get a good alignment for probably 100 dollars in tools, and
certainly for 500 dollars in tools; but it won't have all that time-saving
stuff (where for a mechanic, time is money).

In contrast to your point, it may very well be that a $100 cellphone gets
you as good an alignment as a $100K alignment tool.

The only thing that matters is the quality of the results.
The cost of the tool isn't a factor in the quality of the results.

To the point, I'm not positive yet because I haven't done it, but I would
bet that the quality of results from using a nail inside the tire valve
when seating it is as good as the quality of results from using that $25
grooved swivel-head lever tool just as the quality of results when removing
the valve with a utility knife is probably as good as the quality of
results when using that fancy tool.

PS: I didn't aim this *at* you, but at the team becuase too many people use
"cost" of things as a "quality" measurement - and it's never the case.
People just use "cost" because they don't understand quality but they
understand numbers such as numbers of dollars. But it's the wrong way of
looking at tools (it's a factor though).

That was a good analysis. Thank you.
My thoughts were from a mechanics viewpoint. I no longer do that work but
did for many years professionally.
What I found was that a $3 wrench would last one or two uses but a similar
$20 wrench would last a life time. I still have my Proto, Snap-On, and Mac
after 40 years and they still work fine. The cheap Chinese junk lasts a week at most.
Poor quality steel, poor quality manufacturing, but they look splendid when first
purchased. I will continue to buy the best if I intend on keeping them.
I buy Chinese junk for use at remote locations for a few days and then
give it away or throw away before I fly home.
Skinned knuckles are worth more than a couple bucks. You don't have
to spend big bucks on Snap-On tools to get decent tools. - and you
don't need to buy knuckle-busters to get "reasonably priced" tools.

In Canada we are never far from a "Canadian Tire" store and they
almost always have something decent on sale that will do the job
without breaking either the bank or your knuckles.

wrote on Wed, 07 Dec 2016 18:06:20 -0500:

Just make sure the repair is done properly. Anything bigger than a
nail hole I consider to be NOT REPAIRABLE on today's radial tires.
(and I spent many years in the auto repair and tire businesses)

I do have one question about that tire repair but this is probably not the
thread for it.

But since you brought it up...

1. Here is my patch kit on top of the holed tire.
http://i.cubeupload.com/TE6Td2.jpg
2. One question I have is what's the difference between a "radial" patch
and a patch that doesn't *say* it's radial?
http://i.cubeupload.com/0Q8NO3.jpg
3. Here is the hole from a screw, shown from the inside of the tire
http://i.cubeupload.com/8XKp9m.jpg
(yes, I know the rubber chafed from driving on it for a mile when low)
4. Here is the final picture of the patch
(yes, I know that the t-shaped patch would have been better)
http://i.cubeupload.com/JWrrfh.jpg

I have a bunch of technical questions, but before I ask them, I do know
that the tire is toast and that the t-shaped patch would have been better.

The only reason I didn't put in the t-shaped patch was that I didn't feel
like reaming out the hole, since the hole was so tiny I could barely get
that tent-pole stringing wire through it that you see in this pictu
http://i.cubeupload.com/8XKp9m.jpg

My *technical* questions are the following:

1. What the heck is the difference between the patches in the patch kit
labeled "radial" and the very similar looking patches not labeled radial?

2. Would a drill work as a reamer? Those hand tools are a bear to use.

3. Where can I get more tubes of that cement? It always seems that these
are single-use only (no matter how large they are) because when I need
them, they're always dried up.

Paul in Houston TX wrote on Wed, 07 Dec 2016 17:42:10 -0600:

That was a good analysis. Thank you.

I appreciate that you didn't take my rant personally as it is a diatribe
I've given often, which is that quality and cost are two different things,
and they are essentially unrelated.

A perfect example, by the way, is the cost of fruits when they're NOT in
season. The cost is high when the quality sucks and the cost is low when
the quality is good.

Same with airfare. The cost is low when nobody is flying (i.e., the quality
is high) and the cost is high when everyone is flying (i.e., the quality is
low).

My point is that price bears no direct relationship to quality but people
*use price* as a substitute for the quality metric.

My thoughts were from a mechanics viewpoint. I no longer do that work but
did for many years professionally.

I can't help but agree that if you change tire valves all day, every day,
the cost of the tool doesn't matter one bit. What matters is how well the
tool helps you do the job fast and efficient.

Therefore, since cost isn't at all a concern, the *price* of that tool will
likely be high (because of the lack of downward pressure on pricing). Also
that tool may have a lot of engineering in it to eke out the last iota of
speed and efficiency in removing and replacing valves.

But that type of speed and efficiency doesn't generally play a role in
backyard mechanic metrics. For a backyard mechanic, it could well be that
storage costs outweight tool-quality metrics, for example.

What I found was that a $3 wrench would last one or two uses but a similar
$20 wrench would last a life time. I still have my Proto, Snap-On, and Mac
after 40 years and they still work fine.

I agree. My Craftsman wrenches were bought in the 70s and they're still the
same now as they were then. I'm glad I bought them. Same with my floor jack
and 6-ton jack stands, having gone through very many lesser quality
versions over the years (most of which failed at some point).

The cheap Chinese junk lasts a week at most.

You say cheap but what you mean is low quality.
Low quality junk only lasts a week at most.
I agree with that concept.

For example, I never buy those yellow-and-black screwdrivers they sell in
grocery stores. They all suck, right? But my point isn't that they suck
because they're cheap.

My point is that they suck because they suck.
That they suck has nothing whatsoever to do with the price.

They suck at any price.

Poor quality steel, poor quality manufacturing, but they look splendid when first
purchased. I will continue to buy the best if I intend on keeping them.
I buy Chinese junk for use at remote locations for a few days and then
give it away or throw away before I fly home.

Again, junk sucks because it's junk.
It matters not what price you paid for it.

My only beef is that people *think* price is an indicator of quality.
It is not.

Quality is an indicator of quality.
But that takes technical thought to figure out quality.

People use price (which is just a number) as a substitute for technical
merit.

wrote on Wed, 07 Dec 2016 18:08:56 -0500:

I have long held to the position "never buy the cheapest or the most
expensive, because you will be overpaying for either one"

While that makes sense from a general sense, one of my beefs with people is
that they can't handle technical detail, so they grasp at straws to
something (anything) that they can handle.

Anyone can handle numbers.

So they buy a battery, for example, by "warranty" for heaven's sake!

It's so easy for them to "compare" a battery that has a warranty of, say,
12 months versus a warranty of, say, 24 months, that they grasp at straws
thinking that the warranty defines the difference between teh batteries.

Likewise, they buy tires by warranty, which is ridiculous to say the least.

When they have *nothing* else that they know to compare things, then they
compare by *price* (which is just as ridiculous).

Price is only one of very many factors. Often price is meaningless.

For example, the price paid for one airline seat can be double the price
paid for the one next to it. The price paid for a tomato at one store can
be double the price of another tomato. The price paid for a valve stem on
the ern could be ten cents versus the price I paid, which is something like
five or six bucks.

In all those cases, the price is NOT an indication of quality.
Quality is an indication of quality.

But most people are so stupid that all they can do is compare prices.

I'm not saying you are such a person but it's a long-time beef with me that
teh dumber the person, the more they think that price equates to quality.

It doesn't.
Quality equates to quality.

But that takes brains to assess.

wrote on Wed, 07 Dec 2016 17:53:48 -0500:

and the inch, foot, mile, fehrenheit temperatures, lbs and ounces and
tons (as compared to tonnes)and a whole lot of other measurements you
did NOT change.. Your fluid measure was changed to short-change the
brits.

Until this very moment, I had alays thought a tonne was just a British
spelling of ton!

wrote on Wed, 07 Dec 2016 17:59:25 -0500:

I had 4 stems crack and loose air on the trip. They were all nice
short stems less than a year old, installed with the new tires by the
tire shop. It ends up they were crappy chinese crap stems, but 4 for 4
is BAD. I have alloy rims for summer and winter wheels on the truck -
all with bolt-ins. I have bolt-ins on the summer alloys for the
Tautus. I bought a set of used snows on alloys for the Taurus this
fall. They stiull have the rubber cores, but I have a set of bolt-ins
sitting in the wings - ready to go in.

Depending on the year, I saw a recall on about 6 million of the most common
valve stems for that exact problem.

The manufacturer even reimbursed people for new tires.

It's an NHTSA recall.

wrote on Wed, 07 Dec 2016 18:12:53 -0500:

Sorry - I just checked again, and you can buy the chinese rubber
snap-ins for about $0.50 apiece on e-bay - if you don't care what
quality the rubber is.

The problem with price is that you can get anything for any price in that i
paid about $2 each for the four valve stems I bought where on the net
they're probably 20 cents each.

My point on price is that the stems are exact the same quality at two
dollars as they are for twenty cents.

What you're paying for is not the quality of the valve stems, and, it
seems, from my experience, you almost never (if ever) get good quality
stuff at a auto parts store (where I bought mine).

wrote on Wed, 07 Dec 2016 18:04:43 -0500:

They do seal better on boyh steel and alloy
because the rubber seal is compressed much more positively than the
rubber stem, forming a VERY tight seal.

That what I would have thought.
Thanks for confirming that the quality of seal is better.

wrote on Wed, 07 Dec 2016 21:34:34 -0500:

In Canada we are never far from a "Canadian Tire" store and they
almost always have something decent on sale that will do the job
without breaking either the bank or your knuckles.

That is another "proof" of my point that price is meaningless when
comparing quality of objects.

The quality of an object whether or not it is on sale, is the same, right?

That's proof alone that price is not an indicator of quality.
Never was.
Never will be.

Price *is* an indicator; but not of quality.

Scott Dorsey wrote on 7 Dec 2016 21:06:25 -0500:

There is a cellphone alignment tool? I have done the string and measuring
tape thing (and generally been more satisfied with it than I have been by
sending it to shops with expensive tools operated by high school kids),
but I'd be willing to spend a couple hundred dollars to do a better job.
Tell me more!

There are three jobs almost nobody does at home, all three of which I'd
love to learn how to do because they can't be as hard as people think:
1. Paint your car
2. Replace & balance tires
3. Align your suspension

Depending on the car, the suspension issue is twofold:
a. You have to *understand* what you're doing
b. You have to *measure* what you've got

An alignment, like changing oil, should be done as often as you can do it,
but, like changing oil, in reality, alignments are done far less than
people say they do them.

Why?
Because they're expensive (about $100 on sale where I live but I know the
price varies greatly) and they take effort (an hour minimum but more like
three hours from leaving the house to getting back to the house).

The main problem people have with alignment is self made.
They *think* they need a tool that costs $100K.

But that $100K one-man-operated alignment tool has, just as an example, a
$20K lift and a $10K laser system and $30K of software to handle all cars
and a $5,000 printer option, etc.

None of which a home garage mechanic needs.
That tool is made for a different purpose - which is to get a huge variety
of cars in and out of that shop in no time fast by one guy.

Also, that $100K tool measures stuff that you can't do anything about, such
as tracking and ackerman angles and steering axis inclination, etc.

My sedan only has 3 settable items:
a. Front toe
b. Rear camber
c. Rear toe

That's it. Nothing else is adjustable (although camber plates can be put
nio the front struts).

So, from that perspective, home tool only needs to measure toe & camber.
Nothing else.

Toe is relatively easy, especially with a helper.
So is camber.

Camber is just an angle, and toe is just a distance.
Smartphones can measure angles easily.

I just googled for Android angle-measurement apps and these came up:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...ode.clinometer
https://play.google.com/store/apps/d....anglemeterpro
https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...ira.protractor
https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...ode.isetsquare
etc.

The only thing a home owner needs are knowledge and jigs.

The lack of knowledge is the *real* reason most homeowners don't do
alignment at home, but the lack of jigs slows them down.

For example, you need a jig to measure the midpoint of the tire treads
wheel to wheel (or worse, wheel to centerline of the vehicle).

And you need camber plates (yes there are redneck methods) to adjust
camber.

But the *real* reason most people don't do a home alignment is that you
have to *think* real hard to do it because the measurements are *always* in
the wrong units from what you're measuring.

This post is long enough, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 02:37:42 -0000 (UTC), Leon Schneider
wrote:

wrote on Wed, 07 Dec 2016 18:06:20 -0500:

Just make sure the repair is done properly. Anything bigger than a
nail hole I consider to be NOT REPAIRABLE on today's radial tires.
(and I spent many years in the auto repair and tire businesses)

I do have one question about that tire repair but this is probably not the
thread for it.

But since you brought it up...

1. Here is my patch kit on top of the holed tire.
http://i.cubeupload.com/TE6Td2.jpg
2. One question I have is what's the difference between a "radial" patch
and a patch that doesn't *say* it's radial?
http://i.cubeupload.com/0Q8NO3.jpg
3. Here is the hole from a screw, shown from the inside of the tire
http://i.cubeupload.com/8XKp9m.jpg
(yes, I know the rubber chafed from driving on it for a mile when low)
4. Here is the final picture of the patch
(yes, I know that the t-shaped patch would have been better)
http://i.cubeupload.com/JWrrfh.jpg

I have a bunch of technical questions, but before I ask them, I do know
that the tire is toast and that the t-shaped patch would have been better.

The only reason I didn't put in the t-shaped patch was that I didn't feel
like reaming out the hole, since the hole was so tiny I could barely get
that tent-pole stringing wire through it that you see in this pictu
http://i.cubeupload.com/8XKp9m.jpg

My *technical* questions are the following:

1. What the heck is the difference between the patches in the patch kit
labeled "radial" and the very similar looking patches not labeled radial?

2. Would a drill work as a reamer? Those hand tools are a bear to use.

3. Where can I get more tubes of that cement? It always seems that these
are single-use only (no matter how large they are) because when I need
them, they're always dried up.


The radial tire patch is a re-enforced patch - a tube patch is not -
it needs to stretch with the tube. I have not seen a "non-radial" tire
carcass patch in years. A radial tire needs to be patched "all the way
through" - plug the hole and seal the liner. Combination patches are
best. I have been "guilty" of patching nail punctures with a simple
plug - and gotten away with it.
The reamer in a tire shop is usually mounted in an air operated "die
grinder" or drill.

An alternative to a "plugpatch" is installing a plug, then buffing the
interior and putting a patch over it.

No patch within an inch of the edge of the tread, or in the sidewall.

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 02:44:16 -0000 (UTC), Leon Schneider
wrote:

wrote on Wed, 07 Dec 2016 17:53:48 -0500:

and the inch, foot, mile, fehrenheit temperatures, lbs and ounces and
tons (as compared to tonnes)and a whole lot of other measurements you
did NOT change.. Your fluid measure was changed to short-change the
brits.

Until this very moment, I had alays thought a tonne was just a British
spelling of ton!
A TONNE is a metric ton, or a "long ton" - 1000 Kg or 2200 lbs.

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 02:44:19 -0000 (UTC), Leon Schneider
wrote:

wrote on Wed, 07 Dec 2016 18:12:53 -0500:

Sorry - I just checked again, and you can buy the chinese rubber
snap-ins for about $0.50 apiece on e-bay - if you don't care what
quality the rubber is.

The problem with price is that you can get anything for any price in that i
paid about $2 each for the four valve stems I bought where on the net
they're probably 20 cents each.

My point on price is that the stems are exact the same quality at two
dollars as they are for twenty cents.

They MIGHT be. They might not. And looking at them they will look the
same. Without knowing their provenence or DNA, you don't know.
Buying from a reliable supplier gives you a better chance of getting
the "good stuff"

What you're paying for is not the quality of the valve stems, and, it
seems, from my experience, you almost never (if ever) get good quality
stuff at a auto parts store (where I bought mine).

We have been our own worst enemy, because we systematically shop by
price. The auto parts stores, just like Walmart, carry what YOU as the
consumer wants - low price. (Which usually translates to low quality
on non-perishables)

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 03:03:53 -0000 (UTC), Leon Schneider
wrote:

wrote on Wed, 07 Dec 2016 21:34:34 -0500:

In Canada we are never far from a "Canadian Tire" store and they
almost always have something decent on sale that will do the job
without breaking either the bank or your knuckles.

That is another "proof" of my point that price is meaningless when
comparing quality of objects.

The quality of an object whether or not it is on sale, is the same, right?

That's proof alone that price is not an indicator of quality.
Never was.
Never will be.

Price *is* an indicator; but not of quality.
"you only get what you pay for - and then only if you are lucky"
pretty well defines today's market place.

Generally speeking we overpay for junk - because it costs the same to
warehouse and inventory junk as it does quality goods. The price we
pay for goods includes the cost of the goods (which varies with
quality, to some extent) plus the cost of warehousing, inventory, and
handling - which is the same for junk as for jewels.

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 03:03:55 -0000 (UTC), Leon Schneider
wrote:

Scott Dorsey wrote on 7 Dec 2016 21:06:25 -0500:

There is a cellphone alignment tool? I have done the string and measuring
tape thing (and generally been more satisfied with it than I have been by
sending it to shops with expensive tools operated by high school kids),
but I'd be willing to spend a couple hundred dollars to do a better job.
Tell me more!

There are three jobs almost nobody does at home, all three of which I'd
love to learn how to do because they can't be as hard as people think:
1. Paint your car
2. Replace & balance tires
3. Align your suspension

Trust me, painting your car is a lot harder than it looks -
particularly to do a decent job "at home"

Replacing and balancing tires requires either reasonable equipment or
a lot of sweat and sometimes blood and tears to go with it. Doing a
proper accurate ballance job requires complex equipment.

Alignment is another story - not hard to measure and adjust toe. Not
terribly hard to check camber, but measuring caster requires special
tools.

Depending on the car, the suspension issue is twofold:
a. You have to *understand* what you're doing
b. You have to *measure* what you've got

An alignment, like changing oil, should be done as often as you can do it,
but, like changing oil, in reality, alignments are done far less than
people say they do them.

Alignments on today's vehicles really only need to be done if the
vehicle is damaged. or parts are replaced. They don't "go out of
alignment" unless something bends or wears.

Why?
Because they're expensive (about $100 on sale where I live but I know the
price varies greatly) and they take effort (an hour minimum but more like
three hours from leaving the house to getting back to the house).

The main problem people have with alignment is self made.
They *think* they need a tool that costs $100K.

But that $100K one-man-operated alignment tool has, just as an example, a
$20K lift and a $10K laser system and $30K of software to handle all cars
and a $5,000 printer option, etc.

None of which a home garage mechanic needs.
That tool is made for a different purpose - which is to get a huge variety
of cars in and out of that shop in no time fast by one guy.

Also, that $100K tool measures stuff that you can't do anything about, such
as tracking and ackerman angles and steering axis inclination, etc.

My sedan only has 3 settable items:
a. Front toe
b. Rear camber
c. Rear toe

That's it. Nothing else is adjustable (although camber plates can be put
nio the front struts).

And if you cannot measure the caster and camber you don't know if
there is anything wrong - but your tires wear and the car pulls to the
left or right. You can't tell if the car is tracking properly or if it
has a bent or twisted uni-body or sub frame.
I've had to shift the subframe to balance the canber on many a vehicle
- and I've had to grind out mounting holes to tweak and shift parts to
optimize alignment on many vehicles. I've had to replace struts and
spindles to get alignment back into spec after someone kissed a curb
or bounced through a pothole - or after colission repairs that were
not done properly - very often on vehicles someone had recently
purchased - not knowing it had been previously damaged.

So, from that perspective, home tool only needs to measure toe & camber.
Nothing else.

Toe is relatively easy, especially with a helper.
So is camber.

Camber is just an angle, and toe is just a distance.
Smartphones can measure angles easily.

And not always terribly accurately - and you still need to know the
car is sitting level to start with -

I just googled for Android angle-measurement apps and these came up:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...ode.clinometer
https://play.google.com/store/apps/d....anglemeterpro
https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...ira.protractor
https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...ode.isetsquare
etc.

The only thing a home owner needs are knowledge and jigs.

The lack of knowledge is the *real* reason most homeowners don't do
alignment at home, but the lack of jigs slows them down.

For example, you need a jig to measure the midpoint of the tire treads
wheel to wheel (or worse, wheel to centerline of the vehicle).

What do you need that for? The inner edge of the rim or the outer
edge of the rim works just as well, if not better than the "center of
the tread" and is how real alignment equipment works - and it checks
to make sure the rim is "true" and compensates if it is not - - -

And you need camber plates (yes there are redneck methods) to adjust
camber.

But the *real* reason most people don't do a home alignment is that you
have to *think* real hard to do it because the measurements are *always* in
the wrong units from what you're measuring.

This post is long enough, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Only less than 1 in 1000 people is "capable" of doing a proper
alignment without proper equipment - and only about 1 in 4 (being
charitable here) mechanics can do it WITH the proper equipment.


That's my story - and I'm sticking to IT. As a former mechanic and
former service manager and shop foreman who has had a few very good
front end men, and a lot more who would starve to death doing it flat
rate and choke on their come-backs.

You are obviously a lot less fussy than the average customer.

wrote on Thu, 08 Dec 2016 00:19:22 -0500:

A TONNE is a metric ton, or a "long ton" - 1000 Kg or 2200 lbs.

Thanks. I didn't know that. It never occurred to me to look.

So I will remember that by thinking that a tonne is "longer" than a ton by
two characters, or 200 pounds!

wrote on Thu, 08 Dec 2016 00:23:31 -0500:

We have been our own worst enemy, because we systematically shop by
price. The auto parts stores, just like Walmart, carry what YOU as the
consumer wants - low price. (Which usually translates to low quality
on non-perishables)

Yup. We agree. I've seen people buy EE friction grade (cold/hot) brake pads
for more money than FF or GG pads cost. They don't know what they're doing,
and the auto part store guy doesn't know any more either.

Pretty much, I go to the auto parts store for stuff that I need now, and
that's pretty much all I get there.

Certainly I never buy any replacement parts there (e.g., never an
alternator or a radiator) but I might get belts there if I need them now.

wrote on Thu, 08 Dec 2016 00:15:44 -0500:

The radial tire patch is a re-enforced patch - a tube patch is not -
it needs to stretch with the tube.

But how do you know a radial patch by sight and look and feel?
Is there a way to tell?

I have not seen a "non-radial" tire
carcass patch in years.

I'm not sure what that means.
Are you saying all patches sold in the auto parts stores are radial?

A radial tire needs to be patched "all the way
through" - plug the hole and seal the liner. Combination patches are
best. I have been "guilty" of patching nail punctures with a simple
plug - and gotten away with it.

Your advice is fair that you have to patch the inside, seal the hole, and
ensure the belts aren't sharp. Nonetheless, both of us have gotten away
with "just" a plug and just a patch.

The reamer in a tire shop is usually mounted in an air operated "die
grinder" or drill.

I figured a "drill" might tear up the belts a bit too much though.
But the bit they use in tire shops seems like something we all should have
at home because it makes a screw puncture a standard size and it smoothes
out the belt tear I would think.

An alternative to a "plugpatch" is installing a plug, then buffing the
interior and putting a patch over it.

I like that idea, in that you install the standard plug, and then you cut
and grind it flush, and then patch over that to protect the inside.

I need to find where to get, for homeowners, small amounts of that black
goop they paste over the patch when they're done, at a tire shop.

I'm sure I can find industrial sizes, but we patch one tire a year, so,
small amounts are all that is needed (a few ounces).

No patch within an inch of the edge of the tread, or in the sidewall.

Yup. Too much flexing going on there.

wrote on Thu, 08 Dec 2016 00:27:15 -0500:

"you only get what you pay for - and then only if you are lucky"
pretty well defines today's market place.

Actually, I disagree completely that "you get what you pay for", since
again, that's saying that quality and price are locked in step, and they're
just not.

Here, in California, it's a million bucks for a 2000 sq foot POS house.
In Texas, that house would be 50K or less.

The quality is the same.
The price is very different.

You really get what OTHER PEOPLE PAY FOR, in that the way economics 101
works is that the price of something is based on what other (idiots mostly)
are willing to pay for.

So, for example, at Safeway, the lettuce is 2 dollars a head consistently
whereas at Trader Joes, it's 1 dollar a head for the same quality lettuce.

How the hell can Safeway charge double?
The answer is that OTHER PEOPLE are buying that lettuce.

If Trader Joe was out of lettuce, I'd be stuck paying what OTHER PEOPLE pay
for if I wanted or needed a head of lettuce.

The quality would be the same in both cases.

Generally speeking we overpay for junk - because it costs the same to
warehouse and inventory junk as it does quality goods. The price we
pay for goods includes the cost of the goods (which varies with
quality, to some extent) plus the cost of warehousing, inventory, and
handling - which is the same for junk as for jewels.

I agree with you that manufacturing is only part of the total cost of an
object. In some cases, manufacturing is almost nothing, and where storage
is the biggest expense.

Take o-rings for example. How much do they really cost? How much do they
sell for in the auto-parts store? The expense is not in manufacturing since
they make tens of thousands at a time. The expense is in everything else,
as you noted.

Even in the case of tires, look at the expense in California:
Tire itself = about 100 bucks
Sales tax = about ten percent of that
Eco fees = about five or six bucks
Shipping from Tire Rack = about 16 bucks each (UPS ground)
Installation & balancing = about 20 bucks each
Disposal fee = about 3 bucks each
California tax on the disposal fee = about a quarter but do they have to
tax everything?
etc.

wrote on Thu, 08 Dec 2016 00:46:06 -0500:

Trust me, painting your car is a lot harder than it looks -
particularly to do a decent job "at home"

Fair enough assessment.

Replacing and balancing tires requires either reasonable equipment

Harbor Freight has everything you need, for under $200 overall.
Out here, that's about 10 tires to break even on the tools.
But the best thing is that you get the job done right when you do it
yourself, because I have NEVER seen a tire-changing job done correctly yet
at the tire shops. Not once.

Alignment is another story - not hard to measure and adjust toe. Not
terribly hard to check camber, but measuring caster requires special
tools.

Depends on the vehicle, but my sedan only has adjustments for rear camber
and front-and-back toe, so, for me, that's all I'd need to measure.

Alignments on today's vehicles really only need to be done if the
vehicle is damaged. or parts are replaced. They don't "go out of
alignment" unless something bends or wears.

I'm not so sure of that, because any good pothole can knock something off
alignment but I can't argue the issue becuase I don't really know. I just
know that I've seen it recommended to get the suspension aligned with each
new set of tires (which is about every two years).

And if you cannot measure the caster and camber you don't know if
there is anything wrong - but your tires wear and the car pulls to the
left or right. You can't tell if the car is tracking properly or if it
has a bent or twisted uni-body or sub frame.

As you stated, if you have owned the car, then you know pretty much only
have to deal with alignment drifting out of whack over time so a check of
only toe and camber will do for cars, such as mine, that have no other
adjustments anyway.

However, if you're buying a car, then by all means, have the tracking,
steering axis inclination, ride height, etc., all checked at an alighment
shop who has the tools to measure anything and everything.

But at home, my hypothesis is that only camber and toe need to be measured
for my car (and many others) since that's all you can adjust anyway.

Both can be measured with home tools to reasonable accuracy (is my
hypothesis); but I haven't tried it myself yet.

And not always terribly accurately - and you still need to know the
car is sitting level to start with -

Fair enough that you need a level garage (or you need to level the car by
using linoleum tiles under the wheels). And you have to set the vehicle
ride height (which, for my car, requires about 500 pounds of weight).

But all of that is doable in a home garage.

What do you need that for? The inner edge of the rim or the outer
edge of the rim works just as well, if not better than the "center of
the tread" and is how real alignment equipment works - and it checks
to make sure the rim is "true" and compensates if it is not - - -

This is a good point. I have always done my toe to the centerpoint line
scribed on both tires, especially when it's to the centerpoint of the
underside of the vehicle - but - to your point - any reference measurement
can be used.

To my point, it's just a measurement of distance, and it doesn't have to be
to the ten thousandths of an inch - so it just has to be a decently good
measurement, which is certainly doable in a home garage.

The problem I have run into most is that you can't get a straight string
across the underside of the car becuase of protruding stuff but that's why
a C-shaped jig would work for that.

Only less than 1 in 1000 people is "capable" of doing a proper
alignment without proper equipment - and only about 1 in 4 (being
charitable here) mechanics can do it WITH the proper equipment.

I think aproximately zero cars are aligned correctly, based only on my
experience with my car at "normal" alignement shops. So, again, if you want
your car's alignment to be done right, you often have to do it yourself
(or, in my case, you have to bring your own weights to the shop!).

That's my story - and I'm sticking to IT. As a former mechanic and
former service manager and shop foreman who has had a few very good
front end men, and a lot more who would starve to death doing it flat
rate and choke on their come-backs.

You are obviously a lot less fussy than the average customer.

Heh heh ... I'm the shop's worst nightmare.
The reason is that I WATCH what they do.

I have NEVER in my entire life, for example, seen a tire installed corretly
at a tire shop. Not once. I can give you a littany of errors that they
make, and they have thrice given me the job for free because I had to
complain to their management.

Never once have I seen a shop do my model of vehicle properly for alignment
either.

In both cases (alignment and tires), if you want it done right, then you
have to do it yourself. So, while I do very much respect your advice and
judgement, the one thing I have to tell you is that I'm fussy as hell when
I'm paying someone else to do THEIR job right (and no mechanic ever does).

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 06:43:57 -0000 (UTC), Leon Schneider
wrote:

wrote on Thu, 08 Dec 2016 00:23:31 -0500:

We have been our own worst enemy, because we systematically shop by
price. The auto parts stores, just like Walmart, carry what YOU as the
consumer wants - low price. (Which usually translates to low quality
on non-perishables)

Yup. We agree. I've seen people buy EE friction grade (cold/hot) brake pads
for more money than FF or GG pads cost. They don't know what they're doing,
and the auto part store guy doesn't know any more either.

Pretty much, I go to the auto parts store for stuff that I need now, and
that's pretty much all I get there.

Certainly I never buy any replacement parts there (e.g., never an
alternator or a radiator) but I might get belts there if I need them now.
In my experience I can usually buy my Ford parts cheaper (or at least
the same price for the same quality) at the dealers.

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 06:43:58 -0000 (UTC), Leon Schneider
wrote:

wrote on Thu, 08 Dec 2016 00:15:44 -0500:

The radial tire patch is a re-enforced patch - a tube patch is not -
it needs to stretch with the tube.

But how do you know a radial patch by sight and look and feel?
Is there a way to tell?

Real easy. 99.9% of the time it will just say "radial repair patch"
on it.
I have not seen a "non-radial" tire
carcass patch in years.

I'm not sure what that means.
Are you saying all patches sold in the auto parts stores are radial?
Or inner tube patches, more likely.

A radial tire needs to be patched "all the way
through" - plug the hole and seal the liner. Combination patches are
best. I have been "guilty" of patching nail punctures with a simple
plug - and gotten away with it.

Your advice is fair that you have to patch the inside, seal the hole, and
ensure the belts aren't sharp. Nonetheless, both of us have gotten away
with "just" a plug and just a patch.

The reamer in a tire shop is usually mounted in an air operated "die
grinder" or drill.

I figured a "drill" might tear up the belts a bit too much though.

Not a "drill bit" - a "reamer"
But the bit they use in tire shops seems like something we all should have
at home because it makes a screw puncture a standard size and it smoothes
out the belt tear I would think.

An alternative to a "plugpatch" is installing a plug, then buffing the
interior and putting a patch over it.

I like that idea, in that you install the standard plug, and then you cut
and grind it flush, and then patch over that to protect the inside.

I need to find where to get, for homeowners, small amounts of that black
goop they paste over the patch when they're done, at a tire shop.

Much farther ahead to just pay to have it done properly. ( you DO
know that concept, righthe amount of materials you need to buy, and
the FACT that those supplies deteriorate with age and most likely will
be useless the next time you need it, means you are cheaper long-term
to pay to have it done in the first place unless you get a LOT of
punctures.

I'm sure I can find industrial sizes, but we patch one tire a year, so,
small amounts are all that is needed (a few ounces).

As said above - you will NEVER come out ahead by buying the stuff and
keeping it on hand for one or two punctures a year - or one every year
or two.

No patch within an inch of the edge of the tread, or in the sidewall.

Yup. Too much flexing going on there.
And too close to the edge of the belt.

I find it mildly ammusing that 2 falacies pervade usenet.
The first is that it's always cheaper to buy on-line
and
The second is that it's always cheaper to do it yourself.

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 06:43:59 -0000 (UTC), Leon Schneider
wrote:

wrote on Thu, 08 Dec 2016 00:27:15 -0500:

"you only get what you pay for - and then only if you are lucky"
pretty well defines today's market place.

Actually, I disagree completely that "you get what you pay for", since
again, that's saying that quality and price are locked in step, and they're
just not.

READ for Crypes sakes!!!! I said you ONLY get what you pay for -

Here, in California, it's a million bucks for a 2000 sq foot POS house.
In Texas, that house would be 50K or less.

The quality is the same.
The price is very different.

As is the location - which has a lot to do with VALUE. It is VALUE
that you are looking for - not quality.
Value is the quality/price ratio.
If you want to live in Taft or any of a hundred or more hell-holes in
California you can buy your house for less than you can build it for
too. The HOUSE quality may be the same, but the neighbourhood sure
isn't. There's a REASON people won't pay as much for the house in Taft
, or any of the other little california outposts as they will in the
valley, or the bay area.

You really get what OTHER PEOPLE PAY FOR, in that the way economics 101
works is that the price of something is based on what other (idiots mostly)
are willing to pay for.

The VALUE of something is also sometimes described as what the
highest bidder is willing to pay for something at any given time and
place.

So, for example, at Safeway, the lettuce is 2 dollars a head consistently
whereas at Trader Joes, it's 1 dollar a head for the same quality lettuce.

How the hell can Safeway charge double?
The answer is that OTHER PEOPLE are buying that lettuce.

If Trader Joe was out of lettuce, I'd be stuck paying what OTHER PEOPLE pay
for if I wanted or needed a head of lettuce.

Trader Joe's cost of inventory and handling are MUCH lower than the
supermarket.. The "level of service" is also different. For some
people that changes the "value" of shopping at Trader Joes vs the
supermarket.

The quality would be the same in both cases.

Generally speeking we overpay for junk - because it costs the same to
warehouse and inventory junk as it does quality goods. The price we
pay for goods includes the cost of the goods (which varies with
quality, to some extent) plus the cost of warehousing, inventory, and
handling - which is the same for junk as for jewels.

I agree with you that manufacturing is only part of the total cost of an
object. In some cases, manufacturing is almost nothing, and where storage
is the biggest expense.

Take o-rings for example. How much do they really cost? How much do they
sell for in the auto-parts store? The expense is not in manufacturing since
they make tens of thousands at a time. The expense is in everything else,
as you noted.

Even in the case of tires, look at the expense in California:
Tire itself = about 100 bucks
Sales tax = about ten percent of that
Eco fees = about five or six bucks
Shipping from Tire Rack = about 16 bucks each (UPS ground)
Installation & balancing = about 20 bucks each
Disposal fee = about 3 bucks each
California tax on the disposal fee = about a quarter but do they have to
tax everything?
etc.
You want to buy tires in Ontario (Canada, not California)

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 06:44:01 -0000 (UTC), Leon Schneider
wrote:

wrote on Thu, 08 Dec 2016 00:46:06 -0500:

Trust me, painting your car is a lot harder than it looks -
particularly to do a decent job "at home"

Fair enough assessment.

Replacing and balancing tires requires either reasonable equipment

Harbor Freight has everything you need, for under $200 overall.
Out here, that's about 10 tires to break even on the tools.
But the best thing is that you get the job done right when you do it
yourself, because I have NEVER seen a tire-changing job done correctly yet
at the tire shops. Not once.

Well, I'll respectfully dissagree. There is NO WAY you can
"dynamically" ballance a tire on a $200 Harbour Fright ballancer. All
you can do is static balance it - which might be ok on an old 4x4 or a
Yugo. Balancing the tire from the inside to outside, or quadrant to
quadrant is REQUIRED for a good high speed balance.

I've had cars where 1/4 ounce of dynamic inbalance caused a tire
shimmy on a customer's car (admittedly at well over the legal speed
limit.) Can't get that fine with a bubble balancer.

Alignment is another story - not hard to measure and adjust toe. Not
terribly hard to check camber, but measuring caster requires special
tools.

Depends on the vehicle, but my sedan only has adjustments for rear camber
and front-and-back toe, so, for me, that's all I'd need to measure.

It's what you CAN'T adjust that you need to measure!!! If parts are
worn or bent, you don't know unless you can measure.

Alignments on today's vehicles really only need to be done if the
vehicle is damaged. or parts are replaced. They don't "go out of
alignment" unless something bends or wears.

I'm not so sure of that, because any good pothole can knock something off
alignment but I can't argue the issue becuase I don't really know. I just
know that I've seen it recommended to get the suspension aligned with each
new set of tires (which is about every two years).

A good pothole can BEND things. Adjustments can compensate for some
of that damage.

And if you cannot measure the caster and camber you don't know if
there is anything wrong - but your tires wear and the car pulls to the
left or right. You can't tell if the car is tracking properly or if it
has a bent or twisted uni-body or sub frame.

As you stated, if you have owned the car, then you know pretty much only
have to deal with alignment drifting out of whack over time so a check of
only toe and camber will do for cars, such as mine, that have no other
adjustments anyway.

If you own the car and hit a bad pothole YOU can knock the caster
out. If YOU own the car and slide into a curb, you can tweak the
uni-body, knocking the track out. You can do all kinds of things tht
CAN change the alignment parrameters you cannot measure - and just
because they are not "adjustable" doesn't mean they are not important,
or that they cannot be fixed.

I KNOW. I did that stuff for a living for over twenty years. There are
many ways to correct "non-adjustable" adjustments.

However, if you're buying a car, then by all means, have the tracking,
steering axis inclination, ride height, etc., all checked at an alighment
shop who has the tools to measure anything and everything.

But at home, my hypothesis is that only camber and toe need to be measured
for my car (and many others) since that's all you can adjust anyway.

Both can be measured with home tools to reasonable accuracy (is my
hypothesis); but I haven't tried it myself yet.

And not always terribly accurately - and you still need to know the
car is sitting level to start with -

Fair enough that you need a level garage (or you need to level the car by
using linoleum tiles under the wheels). And you have to set the vehicle
ride height (which, for my car, requires about 500 pounds of weight).

But all of that is doable in a home garage.

What do you need that for? The inner edge of the rim or the outer
edge of the rim works just as well, if not better than the "center of
the tread" and is how real alignment equipment works - and it checks
to make sure the rim is "true" and compensates if it is not - - -

This is a good point. I have always done my toe to the centerpoint line
scribed on both tires, especially when it's to the centerpoint of the
underside of the vehicle - but - to your point - any reference measurement
can be used.

No, not just ANY reference. Any ACCURATE refference. The car isn't a
Bimmer by chance????

To my point, it's just a measurement of distance, and it doesn't have to be
to the ten thousandths of an inch - so it just has to be a decently good
measurement, which is certainly doable in a home garage.


It needs to be accurate to within .01 degrees on many cars. That is
pretty "granular"

The problem I have run into most is that you can't get a straight string
across the underside of the car becuase of protruding stuff but that's why
a C-shaped jig would work for that.
Boy, you are sounding an awfull lot like the guy asking about using
his cell phone to align his Bimmer.
Only less than 1 in 1000 people is "capable" of doing a proper
alignment without proper equipment - and only about 1 in 4 (being
charitable here) mechanics can do it WITH the proper equipment.

I think aproximately zero cars are aligned correctly, based only on my
experience with my car at "normal" alignement shops. So, again, if you want
your car's alignment to be done right, you often have to do it yourself
(or, in my case, you have to bring your own weights to the shop!).

You have absolutely ZERO chance of aligning your car anywhere NEAR as
close to correct as even the worst alignment shop - and I can assure
you EVERY car that left my shop after an alignment WAS properly
aligned. Every one that left my brother's alignment rack was also
properly aligned. Every one road trested after the alignment as well.

And exactly what weights are you bringing yo the "alignment shop"?

That's my story - and I'm sticking to IT. As a former mechanic and
former service manager and shop foreman who has had a few very good
front end men, and a lot more who would starve to death doing it flat
rate and choke on their come-backs.

You are obviously a lot less fussy than the average customer.

Heh heh ... I'm the shop's worst nightmare.
The reason is that I WATCH what they do.

I have NEVER in my entire life, for example, seen a tire installed corretly
at a tire shop. Not once. I can give you a littany of errors that they
make, and they have thrice given me the job for free because I had to
complain to their management.

You are the kind of customer that I would "fire" by the second time
you came into the shop. If you don't trust your mechanic, get the hell
out and stay out.

You think you are smarter than everyone else - and you are a cheap=ass
on top of it all.

What do YOU do for a living????
Like I told a doctor customer of mine who bitched because it took 2
tries to fix an intermittent problem on his expensive car - I
guarantee my work and fix my mistakes - you just bury yours. That shut
the wize-ass up!!.

Never once have I seen a shop do my model of vehicle properly for alignment
either.

In both cases (alignment and tires), if you want it done right, then you
have to do it yourself. So, while I do very much respect your advice and
judgement, the one thing I have to tell you is that I'm fussy as hell when
I'm paying someone else to do THEIR job right (and no mechanic ever does).

And YOU are going to do it right without the equipment and ebven the
knowlege of how to do it?? And I don't mean watching You-tube videos.

Your disrespect of my first chosen profession is duly noted - and one
reason many GOOD mechanics have left the business - leaving guys like
you to fend for yourself. I took enough abuse in just under 25 years
to do me for the rest of my life. -which is why I'll soon be retiring
from my "second chosen profession" after 27 years

In article ,
says...

small amounts are all that is needed (a few ounces).

As said above - you will NEVER come out ahead by buying the stuff and
keeping it on hand for one or two punctures a year - or one every year
or two.

No patch within an inch of the edge of the tread, or in the sidewall.

Yup. Too much flexing going on there.
And too close to the edge of the belt.

I find it mildly ammusing that 2 falacies pervade usenet.
The first is that it's always cheaper to buy on-line
and
The second is that it's always cheaper to do it yourself.

The last tires I bought were form a place that repairs them and rotates
them for 'free'. My wife did something and bent a rim. I brought them
a rim and they replaced the tire and ballanced it for free.

I think I have had one flat in about 12 years not counting that bent
rim.

posted for all of us...



On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 06:44:01 -0000 (UTC), Leon Schneider
wrote:

wrote on Thu, 08 Dec 2016 00:46:06 -0500:

Trust me, painting your car is a lot harder than it looks -
particularly to do a decent job "at home"

Fair enough assessment.

Replacing and balancing tires requires either reasonable equipment

Harbor Freight has everything you need, for under $200 overall.
Out here, that's about 10 tires to break even on the tools.
But the best thing is that you get the job done right when you do it
yourself, because I have NEVER seen a tire-changing job done correctly yet
at the tire shops. Not once.

Well, I'll respectfully dissagree. There is NO WAY you can
"dynamically" ballance a tire on a $200 Harbour Fright ballancer. All
you can do is static balance it - which might be ok on an old 4x4 or a
Yugo. Balancing the tire from the inside to outside, or quadrant to
quadrant is REQUIRED for a good high speed balance.

I've had cars where 1/4 ounce of dynamic inbalance caused a tire
shimmy on a customer's car (admittedly at well over the legal speed
limit.) Can't get that fine with a bubble balancer.

Alignment is another story - not hard to measure and adjust toe. Not
terribly hard to check camber, but measuring caster requires special
tools.

Depends on the vehicle, but my sedan only has adjustments for rear camber
and front-and-back toe, so, for me, that's all I'd need to measure.

It's what you CAN'T adjust that you need to measure!!! If parts are
worn or bent, you don't know unless you can measure.

Alignments on today's vehicles really only need to be done if the
vehicle is damaged. or parts are replaced. They don't "go out of
alignment" unless something bends or wears.

I'm not so sure of that, because any good pothole can knock something off
alignment but I can't argue the issue becuase I don't really know. I just
know that I've seen it recommended to get the suspension aligned with each
new set of tires (which is about every two years).

A good pothole can BEND things. Adjustments can compensate for some
of that damage.

And if you cannot measure the caster and camber you don't know if
there is anything wrong - but your tires wear and the car pulls to the
left or right. You can't tell if the car is tracking properly or if it
has a bent or twisted uni-body or sub frame.

As you stated, if you have owned the car, then you know pretty much only
have to deal with alignment drifting out of whack over time so a check of
only toe and camber will do for cars, such as mine, that have no other
adjustments anyway.

If you own the car and hit a bad pothole YOU can knock the caster
out. If YOU own the car and slide into a curb, you can tweak the
uni-body, knocking the track out. You can do all kinds of things tht
CAN change the alignment parrameters you cannot measure - and just
because they are not "adjustable" doesn't mean they are not important,
or that they cannot be fixed.

I KNOW. I did that stuff for a living for over twenty years. There are
many ways to correct "non-adjustable" adjustments.

However, if you're buying a car, then by all means, have the tracking,
steering axis inclination, ride height, etc., all checked at an alighment
shop who has the tools to measure anything and everything.


Oh Clare, lower your blood pressure. I believe it is the alignment troll.
They are cheap asses whom think they know it all and can fix it for free
with everybody else's help. I am surprised they don't invite people over to
help them (actually do the work). Alignment racks are a thing of beauty
these days. Rather than strings and bubbles they use lasers. Out of specs
are printed out and adjustments verified. This guy is jabbering about nuts
on valve stems???

--
Tekkie

=?iso-8859-15?Q?Tekkie=AE?= wrote:
They are cheap asses whom think they know it all and can fix it for free
with everybody else's help. I am surprised they don't invite people over to
help them (actually do the work). Alignment racks are a thing of beauty
these days. Rather than strings and bubbles they use lasers. Out of specs
are printed out and adjustments verified. This guy is jabbering about nuts
on valve stems???

The problem, at least here, is that there are very few shops that can actually
do a competent alignment.

We used to have a place called Davis Alignment Service that had both some
laser systems and some mechanical measurement gear from the sixties, and
you could go in and expect to drive away with either a solid alignment or
a good diagnosis about why the car isn't going to align properly. You
could explain how you wanted the car to feel and they could adjust the
alignment to match your request.

Today what we have are shops that have automatic digital alignment systems.
They put the car on the system, it prints out some numbers, they put in
some shims and drive the car off. Tie rod ends bad? They won't notice,
they'll put some shims in anyway. You want a little more oversteer? They
will look at you like some kind of alien. "The factory manual says we
are supposed to set this parameter to this and we won't set it any other
way."

Because it's very difficult now to find someone who can actually align the
vehicle who knows what they are doing, a lot of people are interested in
doing alignment at home. Can you blame them?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."