In article ,
says...



On Sun, 11 Sep 2016 13:16:55 -0700, "Checkmate, DoW #1" wrote:

...

Even if there was an afterlife, I want no part of it.

You don't have that power, dude. There IS an afterlife
and you will experience it. If you don't repent you
will experience hell and then the oblivion you wish for.

God gave you free will so you have free will to choose
between hell or heaven. At this time you are choosing
hell but there is still time to rethink your errant
decision.

As for Pandora, how can she claim she loved her husband?
If she loved her husband then she would make the correct
choice so she might be with him again. Oftentimes men
or women *get religion* just prior to their death. It
could be that Pandora's husband is in heaven waiting
for her. How will he feel when she dies and goes down
instead of up?

What makes you think your god has any interest in you beyond that of a
lab rat? Has he ever spoken to you? Has he ever even let his existence
be known to you, or have you been content to take the word of others who
don't know any more about the existence of god than you do? Did your
god give you a brain to think for yourself, or are you willing to
delegate that responsibility to others to do the thinking for you? Is
your christian god any better than the muslim's allah god? Both seem to
like their followers to murder those of different religions. It seems
that nobody's god wants any competition. Get it through your thick
head... there is no afterlife! What you see is all you get. If you
want to waste it praying to a god that never hears or answers you,
that's your delusion.

--

Checkmate, Royal Order of the DoW #1, and Official Ko0K Wrangler
AUK Hammer of Thor award, Feb. 2012 (Pre-Burnore)
Destroyer of the AUK Ko0k Vote (Post-Burnore)
Originator of the "Dance for me" (tm) lame
Copyright © 2016
all rights reserved

In article ,
says...



On Sat, 10 Sep 2016 11:43:55 -0700, "Colonel Edmund J. Burke" wrote:

On 9/10/2016 11:31 AM, Taxed and Spent wrote:
On 9/10/2016 10:15 AM, wrote:
I thought LED bulbs were supposed to last for many years. I put on in my
barn about 2 years ago. It's on all the time as a safety light. It only
uses about 5 watts so I'm not concerned about energy usage. (25W
equivlent).

All of a sudden it has gotten real dim, and it flickers. I'm wondering
what caused that? I know it cant be fixed and needs to be replaced, but
I did not think the LED bulbs were supposed to fail for many years.

When I shut it off, it stays lit for a few seconds after the switch is
OFF, so I imagine there is a capacitor in it, but obviously that cap is
working..... But it's less than half as bright as it used to be, and
flickers.



try it in a different socket.


Well, fellas...... This sad story sorta is like life for us old farts.
We last [hopefully] fer many years ourselves, ya know. Then, one day we
start gettin' a might tuckered out, if ya follow me. We start gittin'
dim ourselves, and in a way you could say we, too, start to flicker.
Eventually we just kinda wink out all together, ya know; and it's--like
they say--the Final Curtain. Folks left behind, they might cry a little
at first; but soon enough they forget about us. In a few more years
nobuddy even remembers us. Such is the temperance of existence.

Amen (and boo hoo)


A LED is a Light Emitting Diode. As such is only
works up if current is supplied to the correct
side of the circuit.

For Alternating Current as used in a barn the AC
must be "rectified" so it all goes the same way.
This being the case, the LED bulb probably has a
failing rectifier (which also consists of diodes)
in its internal circuitry.

I use 12-volt DC LEDs in my fine yacht so I don't
experience this lubberly LED failure like you rabble
who dwell ashore in your foul smelling hovels.

Do you even know what a full wave bridge is?

--

Checkmate, Royal Order of the DoW #1, and Official Ko0K Wrangler
AUK Hammer of Thor award, Feb. 2012 (Pre-Burnore)
Destroyer of the AUK Ko0k Vote (Post-Burnore)
Originator of the "Dance for me" (tm) lame
Copyright © 2016
all rights reserved

On Sun, 11 Sep 2016 13:16:55 -0700, Checkmate, DoW #1 wrote:

In article ,
says...



On Sun, 11 Sep 2016 12:17:14 -0700, Checkmate, DoW #1 wrote:

In article ,
says...



On Sat, 10 Sep 2016 20:59:32 -0700, "Checkmate, DoW #1"
wrote:
In article ,
says...
On Sat, 10 Sep 2016 12:58:53 -0700, "Checkmate, DoW #1"
wrote:
In article ,
says...
On 9/10/2016 11:31 AM, Taxed and Spent wrote:
On 9/10/2016 10:15 AM, wrote:
I thought LED bulbs were supposed to last for many years. I
put on in my barn about 2 years ago. It's on all the time
as a safety light. It only uses about 5 watts so I'm not
concerned about energy usage. (25W equivlent).

All of a sudden it has gotten real dim, and it flickers.
I'm wondering what caused that? I know it cant be fixed and
needs to be replaced, but I did not think the LED bulbs
were supposed to fail for many years.

When I shut it off, it stays lit for a few seconds after
the switch is OFF, so I imagine there is a capacitor in it,
but obviously that cap is working..... But it's less than
half as bright as it used to be, and flickers.

try it in a different socket.

Well, fellas...... This sad story sorta is like life for us
old farts. We last [hopefully] fer many years ourselves, ya
know. Then, one day we start gettin' a might tuckered out, if
ya follow me. We start gittin' dim ourselves, and in a way
you could say we, too, start to flicker. Eventually we just
kinda wink out all together, ya know; and it's--like they
say--the Final Curtain. Folks left behind, they might cry a
little at first; but soon enough they forget about us. In a
few more years nobuddy even remembers us. Such is the
temperance of existence.

Amen (and boo hoo)

The living should envy the dead.

What's to envy. You freaking heathen non-believers seem to think
when one dies there is nothing after it.

Bible-thumpers like you, and camel jockeys who believe in their
little slice of heaven are fools. This is it. You won't be going
anywhere after you die. Your body will simply release all its
atoms to become other things.


That means you think nothingness is better than life.

Stick around long enough, and you will too. The so-called Happy
Times will soon be over.

OMG but that's such retarded thinking.

It only make sense that the living envy the dead if one believes
in Jesus Christ and his promise of everlasting life if one
believes in Him. I envy those who died and achieved everlasting
life but I sure feel badly for those who actively reject Jesus
Christ and for that rejection end up with nothing but some time
spent in hell before God destroys that last bastion of non
believers and all who dwell there.

What will you do in your heaven all day, Greg? Will you sit around
on a cloud joyfully plucking a harp? You and your fellow fools
believe in something that you don't even have any concept of. Can
you even begin to describe what your mythical heaven is supposed to
be like? Eternal bliss would be a curse, not a blessing. Thank
your god that once you're dead, you'll never know you were conned
your entire life.

What can I say other than I will pray for your endangered soul and
fervently hope you repent before it's too late.

Thanks, but there's no need for you to waste any time praying for my
soul. Nobody ever hears those prayers anyway.

No need for him to waste his time praying for me either. People who
believe in an after life and/or some godly being are just plain
delusional. I say, live your life now and make the best of it. It's
all we have.

Even if there was an afterlife, I want no part of it.

From what religious nutcases tell me, IT sounds pretty boring.

On Sun, 11 Sep 2016 16:50:17 -0400, Sir Gregory Hall, Esq. wrote:

On Sun, 11 Sep 2016 13:16:55 -0700, "Checkmate, DoW #1"
wrote:

...

Even if there was an afterlife, I want no part of it.

You don't have that power, dude. There IS an afterlife and you will
experience it. If you don't repent you will experience hell and then the
oblivion you wish for.

God gave you free will so you have free will to choose between hell or
heaven. At this time you are choosing hell but there is still time to
rethink your errant decision.

As for Pandora, how can she claim she loved her husband?

I do not need to prove it to you of all people.

If she loved her husband then she would make the correct choice so she
might be with him again. Oftentimes men or women *get religion* just
prior to their death. It could be that Pandora's husband is in heaven
waiting for her. How will he feel when she dies and goes down instead of
up?

He didn't go anywhere and neither will I.

On Sun, 11 Sep 2016 15:51:51 -0700, Checkmate, DoW #1 wrote:

In article ,
says...



On Sun, 11 Sep 2016 13:16:55 -0700, "Checkmate, DoW #1"
wrote:

...

Even if there was an afterlife, I want no part of it.

You don't have that power, dude. There IS an afterlife and you will
experience it. If you don't repent you will experience hell and then
the oblivion you wish for.

God gave you free will so you have free will to choose between hell or
heaven. At this time you are choosing hell but there is still time to
rethink your errant decision.

As for Pandora, how can she claim she loved her husband?
If she loved her husband then she would make the correct choice so she
might be with him again. Oftentimes men or women *get religion* just
prior to their death. It could be that Pandora's husband is in heaven
waiting for her. How will he feel when she dies and goes down instead
of up?

What makes you think your god has any interest in you beyond that of a
lab rat? Has he ever spoken to you? Has he ever even let his existence
be known to you, or have you been content to take the word of others who
don't know any more about the existence of god than you do? Did your
god give you a brain to think for yourself, or are you willing to
delegate that responsibility to others to do the thinking for you? Is
your christian god any better than the muslim's allah god? Both seem to
like their followers to murder those of different religions. It seems
that nobody's god wants any competition. Get it through your thick
head... there is no afterlife! What you see is all you get. If you
want to waste it praying to a god that never hears or answers you,
that's your delusion.

Indeed.

Its also called a pontoon bridge. Anyone who it not dim knows that.

A full wave bridge is necessary to keep LEDs above bigger waves.

LEDs work best when a constant current source is beneath that bridge. Current must be constant and only in one direction (always a DC or downstream current).

On Sunday, September 11, 2016 at 2:14:50 PM UTC-4, FromTheRafters wrote:
trader_4 pretended :
On Saturday, September 10, 2016 at 10:17:50 PM UTC-4, T wrote:
On 09/10/2016 12:41 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
tolerance for MTBF

Hi Ed,

That is not what MBTF means. If the bulb had, say 1000 hour
MBTF, it would mean that you put 1000 bulbs in a test bench
and ran them for an hour. Only one failed. MBTF does not
tell you anything about the second and so forth hours.



This is just nuts. You can't get any meaningful MTBF by the method
you just described. What you showed was taking 1000 bulbs and testing
them for just an hour. That isn't predictive of MTBF over the life
of the bulbs. Following that method with say an ordinary incandescent,
you'd come away with the impression that they hardly every fail at all,
because incandescents rarely fail in the first hour and it has little
to do with how long they last in service. (In reality what you'd be
measuring is the infant mortality by your 1 hour method)


You find MTBF by testing the devices continuously over many hours,
finding out how many fail at 100 hours, 1000 hours, 10,000 hours
and then determining on average how many hours you get before failure.
Ed has it right, MTBF, properly calculated, is the average number of
hours that you get from an LED before it fails. In your bulb example,
you only tested one bulb to the failure point, in essence you have a
sample size of one.

"MBTF does not tell you anything about the second and so forth hours."

Of course it does. If we know that a bulb or an engine has an MTBF
of 20,000 hours, then we know that on average, that's how many hours
they go between failures. The device is very unlikely to fail at
two hours, or two hundred hours, but has a high failure rate at 20,000
hours. Are you telling us that MTBF only tells you about the first
hour?


(I did MBTF analysis for the military.)

That's scary. And if that's the case, why is it that every time you've
used the term here, you keep posting "MBTF", when it's actually MTBF?

I'm glad somebody noticed. The 'mean' time of a single failure is
exactly the time of that failure and is basically useless as a measure.


+1


I would think that they could test 100 items until maybe 25 of them
failed and get the mean time from that selection of failures.

That would be getting closer to the real number, but even that gives you
an MTBF number that is too low. That's because you're only counting
the 25 that failed and not counting the 75 that were still working OK.
You know the MTBF based on averaging the number of hours it took for
those 25 to fail is a lower number than what you would calculate based on
averaging what you'd get from all 100. Knowing something about
the physics of whatever the system is, eg that it would typically follow
a bathtub shape curve, you could use some statistical methods to generate
a better estimate of the real MTBF based on the results of just 25 failing
out of 100 and stopping the test at that point.

On 9/11/2016 4:07 PM, Checkmate, DoW #1 wrote:
In article ,
says...



On Sat, 10 Sep 2016 11:43:55 -0700, "Colonel Edmund J. Burke" wrote:

On 9/10/2016 11:31 AM, Taxed and Spent wrote:
On 9/10/2016 10:15 AM, wrote:
I thought LED bulbs were supposed to last for many years. I put on in my
barn about 2 years ago. It's on all the time as a safety light. It only
uses about 5 watts so I'm not concerned about energy usage. (25W
equivlent).

All of a sudden it has gotten real dim, and it flickers. I'm wondering
what caused that? I know it cant be fixed and needs to be replaced, but
I did not think the LED bulbs were supposed to fail for many years.

When I shut it off, it stays lit for a few seconds after the switch is
OFF, so I imagine there is a capacitor in it, but obviously that cap is
working..... But it's less than half as bright as it used to be, and
flickers.



try it in a different socket.


Well, fellas...... This sad story sorta is like life for us old farts.
We last [hopefully] fer many years ourselves, ya know. Then, one day we
start gettin' a might tuckered out, if ya follow me. We start gittin'
dim ourselves, and in a way you could say we, too, start to flicker.
Eventually we just kinda wink out all together, ya know; and it's--like
they say--the Final Curtain. Folks left behind, they might cry a little
at first; but soon enough they forget about us. In a few more years
nobuddy even remembers us. Such is the temperance of existence.

Amen (and boo hoo)


A LED is a Light Emitting Diode. As such is only
works up if current is supplied to the correct
side of the circuit.

For Alternating Current as used in a barn the AC
must be "rectified" so it all goes the same way.
This being the case, the LED bulb probably has a
failing rectifier (which also consists of diodes)
in its internal circuitry.

I use 12-volt DC LEDs in my fine yacht so I don't
experience this lubberly LED failure like you rabble
who dwell ashore in your foul smelling hovels.

Do you even know what a full wave bridge is?


Chekky? Didn't John Luc Picard do that on Star Trek?

T writes:
On 09/10/2016 12:41 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
tolerance for MTBF

Hi Ed,

That is not what MBTF means. If the bulb had, say 1000 hour
MBTF, it would mean that you put 1000 bulbs in a test bench
and ran them for an hour. Only one failed. MBTF does not
tell you anything about the second and so forth hours.
(I did MBTF analysis for the military.)

Yet, you can't even spell the acronym correctly.

MTBF - Mean Time Between Failures

"The predicted elapsed time betwen inherent failures of a system
during operation".

Of course, in a system that can't be repaired, such as an LED
A19 bulb, the proper acronym is MTTF (Mean Time To Failure).

Note that it is incorrect to extrapolate MTBF to give an estimate
of the life time of a component, because of the much higher failure
rate during end-of-life.

Note also the first term is 'Mean', which implies failures on
either side of the computed MTBF can be expected.

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 14:04:21 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

T writes:
On 09/10/2016 12:41 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
tolerance for MTBF

Hi Ed,

That is not what MBTF means. If the bulb had, say 1000 hour
MBTF, it would mean that you put 1000 bulbs in a test bench
and ran them for an hour. Only one failed. MBTF does not
tell you anything about the second and so forth hours.
(I did MBTF analysis for the military.)

Yet, you can't even spell the acronym correctly.

MTBF - Mean Time Between Failures

"The predicted elapsed time betwen inherent failures of a system
during operation".

Of course, in a system that can't be repaired, such as an LED
A19 bulb, the proper acronym is MTTF (Mean Time To Failure).

Note that it is incorrect to extrapolate MTBF to give an estimate
of the life time of a component, because of the much higher failure
rate during end-of-life.

Note also the first term is 'Mean', which implies failures on
either side of the computed MTBF can be expected.
Actually the highest failure rate per unit time is when the product
is new. "infant mortality" is a bigger issue than "old age".

I guess technically you are mabee correct, because just before they
fail - at whatever age, they are "approachiung end-of-life"

Predicting "end of life" becomes the issue. We had all kinds of
trouble with LED MR16 or GU10 (whichever the 12 volt ones are) so we
went back to halogens - these are in a 14-20 foot mceiling. They have
been in a month now, and already 3 out of 54? are dead.......

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 12:55:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 14:04:21 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

T writes:
On 09/10/2016 12:41 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
tolerance for MTBF

Hi Ed,

That is not what MBTF means. If the bulb had, say 1000 hour
MBTF, it would mean that you put 1000 bulbs in a test bench
and ran them for an hour. Only one failed. MBTF does not
tell you anything about the second and so forth hours.
(I did MBTF analysis for the military.)

Yet, you can't even spell the acronym correctly.

MTBF - Mean Time Between Failures

"The predicted elapsed time betwen inherent failures of a system
during operation".

Of course, in a system that can't be repaired, such as an LED
A19 bulb, the proper acronym is MTTF (Mean Time To Failure).

Note that it is incorrect to extrapolate MTBF to give an estimate
of the life time of a component, because of the much higher failure
rate during end-of-life.

Note also the first term is 'Mean', which implies failures on
either side of the computed MTBF can be expected.
Actually the highest failure rate per unit time is when the product
is new. "infant mortality" is a bigger issue than "old age".


If that were true, then there would be a huge scrap bucket at the
factory, with most of the product coming off the line failing.
Sure there is a higher failure rate in infancy than in
the middle of life, but the highest failure rate is at the end of
life when they are almost all failing.




I guess technically you are mabee correct, because just before they
fail - at whatever age, they are "approachiung end-of-life"


IDK what the difference here is between technically correct and
just correct.

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 12:55:38 -0400, wrote:

We had all kinds of
trouble with LED MR16 or GU10 (whichever the 12 volt ones are) so we
went back to halogens - these are in a 14-20 foot mceiling. They have
been in a month now, and already 3 out of 54? are dead.......

All I know is LEDs can't take heat. Halogen bulbs can. Maybe it is hot up
there?

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 16:27:51 -0400, Don Wiss
wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 12:55:38 -0400, wrote:

We had all kinds of
trouble with LED MR16 or GU10 (whichever the 12 volt ones are) so we
went back to halogens - these are in a 14-20 foot mceiling. They have
been in a month now, and already 3 out of 54? are dead.......

All I know is LEDs can't take heat. Halogen bulbs can. Maybe it is hot up
there?

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).
It's a bit warmer up there than at floor level but that doesnt
explain why the halogens are letting go even more quickly than the
LEDs did - - -

writes:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 16:27:51 -0400, Don Wiss
wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 12:55:38 -0400, wrote:

We had all kinds of
trouble with LED MR16 or GU10 (whichever the 12 volt ones are) so we
went back to halogens - these are in a 14-20 foot mceiling. They have
been in a month now, and already 3 out of 54? are dead.......

All I know is LEDs can't take heat. Halogen bulbs can. Maybe it is hot up
there?

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).
It's a bit warmer up there than at floor level but that doesnt
explain why the halogens are letting go even more quickly than the
LEDs did - - -

because heat rises, and halogens create a lot more of it, particularly
base-up.

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 23:22:58 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 16:27:51 -0400, Don Wiss
wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 12:55:38 -0400, wrote:

We had all kinds of
trouble with LED MR16 or GU10 (whichever the 12 volt ones are) so we
went back to halogens - these are in a 14-20 foot mceiling. They have
been in a month now, and already 3 out of 54? are dead.......

All I know is LEDs can't take heat. Halogen bulbs can. Maybe it is hot up
there?

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).
It's a bit warmer up there than at floor level but that doesnt
explain why the halogens are letting go even more quickly than the
LEDs did - - -
Just lost a 4th halogen this morning - - -

On Tue, 13 Sep 2016 13:01:32 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 16:27:51 -0400, Don Wiss
wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 12:55:38 -0400, wrote:

We had all kinds of
trouble with LED MR16 or GU10 (whichever the 12 volt ones are) so we
went back to halogens - these are in a 14-20 foot mceiling. They have
been in a month now, and already 3 out of 54? are dead.......

All I know is LEDs can't take heat. Halogen bulbs can. Maybe it is hot up
there?

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).
It's a bit warmer up there than at floor level but that doesnt
explain why the halogens are letting go even more quickly than the
LEDs did - - -

because heat rises, and halogens create a lot more of it, particularly
base-up.
I was replying to "All I know is LEDs can't take heat. Halogen
bulbs can. " -- and noting the halogens are dropping like flies - even
moreso than the terrible results we had with LEDs.

Life expectancy of a halogen in normal service is determined by filament temperature (ie voltage) and hours of operation. Monitor for high voltage or voltage variations that cause intensity to change. If on a properly wired circuit, that bulb should not change intensity even as other major appliances power cycle.

An abnormal event is, for example, traffic on a floor above that bulb. Incandescent bulbs fail pre-maturely with vibrations only when hot (powered).

Vince Foster posted for all of us...



On 09/10/2016 01:15 PM, wrote:
I thought LED bulbs were supposed to last for many years. I put on in my
barn about 2 years ago. It's on all the time as a safety light. It only
uses about 5 watts so I'm not concerned about energy usage. (25W
equivlent).

All of a sudden it has gotten real dim, and it flickers. I'm wondering
what caused that? I know it cant be fixed and needs to be replaced, but
I did not think the LED bulbs were supposed to fail for many years.

When I shut it off, it stays lit for a few seconds after the switch is
OFF, so I imagine there is a capacitor in it, but obviously that cap is
working..... But it's less than half as bright as it used to be, and
flickers.

By your own account, the bulb lasted about 17,000 hours. You cheapasscow, WTF do you want?

STFU and go buy another one.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/60W-Equiv...27ND/206587566

I was going to post a reply like this but too lazy to figure out how many
hours in the year. The bulb probably didn't have a longevity on the package
so it means FOREVER in his mind.

--
Tekkie

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 10:22:54 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 16:27:51 -0400, Don Wiss
wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 12:55:38 -0400, wrote:

We had all kinds of
trouble with LED MR16 or GU10 (whichever the 12 volt ones are) so we
went back to halogens - these are in a 14-20 foot mceiling. They have
been in a month now, and already 3 out of 54? are dead.......

All I know is LEDs can't take heat. Halogen bulbs can. Maybe it is hot up
there?

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).
It's a bit warmer up there than at floor level but that doesnt
explain why the halogens are letting go even more quickly than the
LEDs did - - -

It more of a function of bulb and light fixture design. If a bulb is rated "Base Up" and the fixture is ventilated, a halogen, CFL or LED lamp should have no problems. The less expensive bulbs aren't going to be rated for base up operation and will have a reduced life expectancy. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Lit Monster

FWIW, for some reason these vintage-style LED bulbs run very cool,
about 85F was the max when I checked them with my infrared thermometer.Â* Â*

https://www.amazon.com/Feit-BPST19-L.../dp/B00TSU72L8

On Tue, 13 Sep 2016 21:50:33 +0200, westom
wrote:


;3623656 Wrote:

Just lost a 4th halogen this morning - - -

Life expectancy of a halogen in normal service is determined by filament
temperature (ie voltage) and hours of operation. Monitor for high
voltage or voltage variations that cause intensity to change. If on a
properly wired circuit, that bulb should not change intensity even as
other major appliances power cycle.

An abnormal event is, for example, traffic on a floor above that bulb.
Incandescent bulbs fail pre-maturely with vibrations only when hot
(powered).
50 bulbs on 3 circuits - 2 on each of 2 circuits have failed within
less than 6 weeks. No electrical problems - voltage varies less than 5
volts over a typical day. No heavy equipment loads except for the AC -
which runs on a different panel. All the fixtures have magnetic
transformewrs (not switch mode) It is a single story building built
on slab.

On Tue, 13 Sep 2016 14:54:32 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 10:22:54 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 16:27:51 -0400, Don Wiss
wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 12:55:38 -0400, wrote:

We had all kinds of
trouble with LED MR16 or GU10 (whichever the 12 volt ones are) so we
went back to halogens - these are in a 14-20 foot mceiling. They have
been in a month now, and already 3 out of 54? are dead.......

All I know is LEDs can't take heat. Halogen bulbs can. Maybe it is hot up
there?

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).
It's a bit warmer up there than at floor level but that doesnt
explain why the halogens are letting go even more quickly than the
LEDs did - - -

It more of a function of bulb and light fixture design. If a bulb is rated "Base Up" and the fixture is ventilated, a halogen, CFL or LED lamp should have no problems. The less expensive bulbs aren't going to be rated for base up operation and will have a reduced life expectancy. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Lit Monster
ALL MR16 bulbs are rated for base up - it is almost the only way
they are EVER used.

On Tuesday, September 13, 2016 at 7:34:21 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 13 Sep 2016 14:54:32 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 10:22:54 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 16:27:51 -0400, Don Wiss
wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 12:55:38 -0400, wrote:

We had all kinds of
trouble with LED MR16 or GU10 (whichever the 12 volt ones are) so we
went back to halogens - these are in a 14-20 foot mceiling. They have
been in a month now, and already 3 out of 54? are dead.......

All I know is LEDs can't take heat. Halogen bulbs can. Maybe it is hot up
there?

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).
It's a bit warmer up there than at floor level but that doesnt
explain why the halogens are letting go even more quickly than the
LEDs did - - -

It more of a function of bulb and light fixture design. If a bulb is rated "Base Up" and the fixture is ventilated, a halogen, CFL or LED lamp should have no problems. The less expensive bulbs aren't going to be rated for base up operation and will have a reduced life expectancy. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Lit Monster

ALL MR16 bulbs are rated for base up - it is almost the only way
they are EVER used.

Is it an office building or industrial plant? What manufacturer produces the bulbs you use? Are the old fixtures well ventilated? Are the bulbs failing at a faster rate than the older industrial/commercial 130 volt incandescent lamps? It's puzzling as to why you're having such high failure rate. ヽ(。_°)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Inquisitive Monster

On Tue, 13 Sep 2016 21:19:29 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 13, 2016 at 7:34:21 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 13 Sep 2016 14:54:32 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 10:22:54 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 16:27:51 -0400, Don Wiss
wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 12:55:38 -0400, wrote:

We had all kinds of
trouble with LED MR16 or GU10 (whichever the 12 volt ones are) so we
went back to halogens - these are in a 14-20 foot mceiling. They have
been in a month now, and already 3 out of 54? are dead.......

All I know is LEDs can't take heat. Halogen bulbs can. Maybe it is hot up
there?

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).
It's a bit warmer up there than at floor level but that doesnt
explain why the halogens are letting go even more quickly than the
LEDs did - - -

It more of a function of bulb and light fixture design. If a bulb is rated "Base Up" and the fixture is ventilated, a halogen, CFL or LED lamp should have no problems. The less expensive bulbs aren't going to be rated for base up operation and will have a reduced life expectancy. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Lit Monster

ALL MR16 bulbs are rated for base up - it is almost the only way
they are EVER used.

Is it an office building or industrial plant? What manufacturer produces the bulbs you use? Are the old fixtures well ventilated? Are the bulbs failing at a faster rate than the older industrial/commercial 130 volt incandescent lamps? It's puzzling as to why you're having such high failure rate. ?(?_°)?

[8~{} Uncle Inquisitive Monster
Built as a commercial strip plaza, converted at time of construction
to high end office space - 7 years old. Has never had incandescent
lighting. Has some "U" shaped flourescents - have replaced, if memory
serves me correctly, 3 of them There are some incandescents in
washrooms and "accent lighting" as well as a Chandelier - I've
replaced half of the bulbs excluding the chandelier, and quite a few
in the chandelier - havesince relamped it with LEDs - have had a few
failures, bur not a high rate They are base down. I don't have the
brand of the halogens handy but they were purchaced from my normal
electric supply house, Torbram Electric.

The fixtures are mounted in suspended ceiling, vented to the open
space above (minimum 4 feet clearance to roof decking)

On 09/11/2016 05:17 AM, songbird wrote:
wrote:
...songbird asked...

check the wiring too...

It's not the wiring - its cheapassed chinese electronics rearing
it's ugly head again. Proper circuit design and assembly yields LED
lights that last for years. Cheapassed engineering and sloppy assembly
yields LED lights that can last as little as 100 hours.

You got that! CFL's will last a log time too, but no
one will spend the necessary money on one to achieve it.

White LED's are actually more fragile than you would think.
You have to get the heat out or they lose their ability
to shed light. Colored ones can take a lot more heat.

If the
engineering is OK and only the assembly is slipshod, you may get about
1 in 10 (as I did on a large installation) lasting 3 or more years

ok,

just that i had a direct wired LED light fail, but
it was actually the wiring that went instead, which
i didn't check until after i'd returned the unit and
put the replacement in and it still didn't work.


songbird


Hi Songbird,

I am an Electrical Engineer. You are not off track.
You are following best practice in troubleshooting.
Clare is just looking at what is most probable.
There is just a tiny bit of cross talk here.

Basically, your advice was spot on. If a fresh
bulb doesn't change the symptom, or trying the
suspect bulb out on another wiring run and the
bulb works properly, it is the wiring and could
be a danger to the structure.

Now, back to my zucchini!

-T

On 09/11/2016 12:59 PM, Roy wrote:
Thanks, but there's no need for you to waste any time praying for my
soul. Nobody ever hears those prayers anyway.

No need for him to waste his time praying for me either. People who
believe in an after life and/or some godly being are just plain
delusional. I say, live your life now and make the best of it. It's all
we have.

Exactly, we think alike on this.

And you'll be spending so much time shaking the hands
of all your friends, you won't realize you are in the
eternal golf course, except for the heat.

:-)

On 09/11/2016 11:14 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:


Yup. The already do that. It is called the "bath tub curve".
More at Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve

We studied it in college.

There is a common misconception that MTBF means how long
it will last. It is pretty useless for determining
longevity. Folks often mix up "Mean Time to Failure
(MTTF)" with MTBF.

On 09/12/2016 09:55 AM, wrote:
Actually the highest failure rate per unit time is when the product
is new. "infant mortality" is a bigger issue than "old age".

Actually they resemble each other. It is called the
"bathtub curve". More at Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve

On 09/12/2016 07:04 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
T writes:
On 09/10/2016 12:41 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
tolerance for MTBF

Hi Ed,

That is not what MBTF means. If the bulb had, say 1000 hour
MBTF, it would mean that you put 1000 bulbs in a test bench
and ran them for an hour. Only one failed. MBTF does not
tell you anything about the second and so forth hours.
(I did MBTF analysis for the military.)

Yet, you can't even spell the acronym correctly.

And "YOU" never make a typo? Oh pardon me!


MTBF - Mean Time Between Failures

"The predicted elapsed time betwen inherent failures of a system
during operation".

Oh no you misspelled "between"! Oh My Gosh!!!! A TYPO,
A TYPO, A TYPO !!! You must have gone to the same publik
skool I went to! AAAAAAHHHHHHHH !!!!!

You also gave a superficial definition. The full definition
is
Mean time between failures (MTBF). The total functioning
life of a population of an item divided by the total number
of failures within the population during the measurement
interval. The definition holds for time, cycles, miles,
events, or other measures of life units.
--DOD-HDBK-791, page 215

You missed the "measurement interval". It is one hour. I have
done this professionally for the military. There is much more to
it than the superficial definition you gave. And it does lead
to a lot of misunderstandings, like yours. The general public
does not realize the tables you use to look these things up (also
published by the miliary) are all based on one hour. You
are relying on the work of others to come up with your
predictions. Intervals other than an hour would require
all kinds of math manipulations to combine it with MTBF of other
parts analyzed in your prediction. You are not just analyzing
one part by itself, you can just look that up.


Note that it is incorrect to extrapolate MTBF to give an estimate
of the life time of a component, because of the much higher failure
rate during end-of-life.

It is improper to interpolate Mean Time To Failure (MTTF)
with with MTBF do to the way MTBF is calculated.

And, I do not mean to poke the condescending in the eye, but
infant Mortality and Old Age Failure (Wear Out Failure)
match each other (one is the inverse of the other). It
is called the Bathtub curve.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve

Now you can go back happily condescending about all
our typos, not yours, of course.

And yes, I had to study all the above ****.

T explained :
On 09/11/2016 11:14 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:


Yup. The already do that. It is called the "bath tub curve".
More at Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve

We studied it in college.

There is a common misconception that MTBF means how long
it will last. It is pretty useless for determining
longevity. Folks often mix up "Mean Time to Failure
(MTTF)" with MTBF.

The name pretty much says it all, but like many other things, applying
it outside of its intended range gives erroneous results.

On 09/14/2016 06:24 PM, FromTheRafters wrote:
T explained :
On 09/11/2016 11:14 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:


Yup. The already do that. It is called the "bath tub curve".
More at Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve

We studied it in college.

There is a common misconception that MTBF means how long
it will last. It is pretty useless for determining
longevity. Folks often mix up "Mean Time to Failure
(MTTF)" with MTBF.

The name pretty much says it all, but like many other things, applying
it outside of its intended range gives erroneous results.

You would never believe how much sticking your finger in the
wind is involved in MTBF predictions too.

If you want to know what the manufacturer really thinks,
look at his warranty. On the above bathtub
curve, we were taught in college to set the warranty
at 90% of the useful lifespan.

On 09/14/2016 10:00 PM, T wrote:
On 09/11/2016 11:14 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:


Yup. The already do that. It is called the "bath tub curve".
More at Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve

We studied it in college.

There is a common misconception that MTBF means how long
it will last. It is pretty useless for determining
longevity. Folks often mix up "Mean Time to Failure
(MTTF)" with MTBF.


Fact: Manufacturers use acronyms to confuse and deceive people.

On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 6:00:50 PM UTC-4, T wrote:
On 09/11/2016 11:14 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:


Yup. The already do that. It is called the "bath tub curve".
More at Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve

We studied it in college.

There is a common misconception that MTBF means how long
it will last. It is pretty useless for determining
longevity. Folks often mix up "Mean Time to Failure
(MTTF)" with MTBF.

In the case of an LED light, which is what we are discussing,
MTBF and MTTF are the same, because there is no repair. In a
repairable system, where it's not scrapped at first failure,
you can repair it, then continue to measure the time to the
next failure. With an LED bulb the first failure is essentially
the last

On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 6:46:41 PM UTC-4, T wrote:
On 09/12/2016 07:04 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
T writes:
On 09/10/2016 12:41 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
tolerance for MTBF

Hi Ed,

That is not what MBTF means. If the bulb had, say 1000 hour
MBTF, it would mean that you put 1000 bulbs in a test bench
and ran them for an hour. Only one failed. MBTF does not
tell you anything about the second and so forth hours.
(I did MBTF analysis for the military.)

Yet, you can't even spell the acronym correctly.

And "YOU" never make a typo? Oh pardon me!


It's sure odd that you made the same "typo" four times in a row
in the same post and never once got it right. What are the odds
of that?




MTBF - Mean Time Between Failures

"The predicted elapsed time betwen inherent failures of a system
during operation".

Oh no you misspelled "between"! Oh My Gosh!!!! A TYPO,
A TYPO, A TYPO !!! You must have gone to the same publik
skool I went to! AAAAAAHHHHHHHH !!!!!

You also gave a superficial definition. The full definition
is
Mean time between failures (MTBF). The total functioning
life of a population of an item divided by the total number
of failures within the population during the measurement
interval. The definition holds for time, cycles, miles,
events, or other measures of life units.
--DOD-HDBK-791, page 215

You missed the "measurement interval". It is one hour.

What a buffoon. The measurement interval is exactly that, how long the
system if being measured for failures. You have a jet engine being tested,
you clock how long it is before a failure occurs. Typically it's measured
in hours, but it's not "one hour", it as long as the test goes on,
which is typically tens of thousands of hours. And your own reference
says it can be measured in miles, cycles, etc. How does that translate
to your "one hour"? So, even your own cite says you don't know what
you're talking about.

I have
done this professionally for the military.

That's scary.

There is much more to
it than the superficial definition you gave. And it does lead
to a lot of misunderstandings, like yours. The general public
does not realize the tables you use to look these things up (also
published by the miliary) are all based on one hour. You
are relying on the work of others to come up with your
predictions.

ROFL

Intervals other than an hour would require
all kinds of math manipulations to combine it with MTBF of other
parts analyzed in your prediction. You are not just analyzing
one part by itself, you can just look that up.



So we can only test light bulbs, LEDs, jet engines for a measurement
interval of one hour? Good grief


Note that it is incorrect to extrapolate MTBF to give an estimate
of the life time of a component, because of the much higher failure
rate during end-of-life.

It is improper to interpolate Mean Time To Failure (MTTF)
with with MTBF do to the way MTBF is calculated.

And, I do not mean to poke the condescending in the eye, but
infant Mortality and Old Age Failure (Wear Out Failure)
match each other (one is the inverse of the other). It
is called the Bathtub curve.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve

Now you can go back happily condescending about all
our typos, not yours, of course.

And yes, I had to study all the above ****.

Sadly you didn't even learn the basics.

On 09/15/2016 02:04 AM, GOWGN wrote:
On 09/14/2016 10:00 PM, T wrote:
On 09/11/2016 11:14 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:


Yup. The already do that. It is called the "bath tub curve".
More at Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve

We studied it in college.

There is a common misconception that MTBF means how long
it will last. It is pretty useless for determining
longevity. Folks often mix up "Mean Time to Failure
(MTTF)" with MTBF.


Fact: Manufacturers use acronyms to confuse and deceive people.


Ha! I can tell you don't work for marketing! :-)

There is no end to the bull ****e that marketing smothers
us in a constant basis.

trader_4 has brought this to us :
On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 6:46:41 PM UTC-4, T wrote:
On 09/12/2016 07:04 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
T writes:
On 09/10/2016 12:41 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
tolerance for MTBF

Hi Ed,

That is not what MBTF means. If the bulb had, say 1000 hour
MBTF, it would mean that you put 1000 bulbs in a test bench
and ran them for an hour. Only one failed. MBTF does not
tell you anything about the second and so forth hours.
(I did MBTF analysis for the military.)

Yet, you can't even spell the acronym correctly.

It's not really an acronym.

And "YOU" never make a typo? Oh pardon me!

It's sure odd that you made the same "typo" four times in a row
in the same post and never once got it right. What are the odds
of that?

Use the MWBT (Mean Words Between Typos) formula [See Appendix E], just
add up all of the words in intervals between the starting typo and
between subsequent typos and divide by the number of typo events
recorded excluding the starting typo. It comes to about 14.33 WPT
(Words Per Typo) I think.

Be advised, small data sets may give suboptimum results and excluding
the 'warm-up' period and the 'past bedtime' period is recommended for
the best results.

What a buffoon. The measurement interval is exactly that, how long the
system if being measured for failures.

Not just "how long the system if[sic] being measured for failures", but
where. The idea is to exclude the outliers of 'infant failure' and
'system age wearout' by getting the data set from the steady rate of
midlife operation from the nearly flat bottom of the bathtub curve.

So we can only test light bulbs, LEDs, jet engines for a measurement
interval of one hour? Good grief

It would certainly speed up the process, and marketing would just love
the great looking numbers. No need to test them for *two* hours when
you get such good results from one hour.

On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 1:34:37 PM UTC-5, T wrote:
On 09/15/2016 02:04 AM, GOWGN wrote:
On 09/14/2016 10:00 PM, T wrote:
On 09/11/2016 11:14 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:

Yup. The already do that. It is called the "bath tub curve".
More at Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve

We studied it in college.

There is a common misconception that MTBF means how long
it will last. It is pretty useless for determining
longevity. Folks often mix up "Mean Time to Failure
(MTTF)" with MTBF.

Fact: Manufacturers use acronyms to confuse and deceive people.

Ha! I can tell you don't work for marketing! :-)

There is no end to the bull ****e that marketing smothers
us in a constant basis.

That's how we wound up with our Affirmative Action Gay Muslim President. Pure marketing and media manipulation. ¯\_à²*_à²*_/¯

[8~{} Uncle Ad Monster

On 09/15/2016 06:34 PM, T wrote:
On 09/15/2016 02:04 AM, GOWGN wrote:
On 09/14/2016 10:00 PM, T wrote:
On 09/11/2016 11:14 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:


Yup. The already do that. It is called the "bath tub curve".
More at Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve

We studied it in college.

There is a common misconception that MTBF means how long
it will last. It is pretty useless for determining
longevity. Folks often mix up "Mean Time to Failure
(MTTF)" with MTBF.


Fact: Manufacturers use acronyms to confuse and deceive people.


Ha! I can tell you don't work for marketing! :-)

There is no end to the bull ****e that marketing smothers
us in a constant basis.

In my opinion, Shop-Vac fudges the specs a bit.

https://www.shopvacstore.com/the-sho...p-details.aspx

They claim 6 peak horsepower yet their specs also state 120 Volts and 11.8 Amps.

So how does a 1416 watt motor yield 6HP?
Last I knew, a 100% efficient motor would yield 1 HP at 746 watts so this Shop-Vac is actually less than 2 HP.

On 09/16/2016 12:09 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 1:34:37 PM UTC-5, T wrote:
On 09/15/2016 02:04 AM, GOWGN wrote:
On 09/14/2016 10:00 PM, T wrote:
On 09/11/2016 11:14 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:

Yup. The already do that. It is called the "bath tub curve".
More at Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve

We studied it in college.

There is a common misconception that MTBF means how long
it will last. It is pretty useless for determining
longevity. Folks often mix up "Mean Time to Failure
(MTTF)" with MTBF.

Fact: Manufacturers use acronyms to confuse and deceive people.

Ha! I can tell you don't work for marketing! :-)

There is no end to the bull ****e that marketing smothers
us in a constant basis.

That's how we wound up with our Affirmative Action Gay Muslim President. Pure marketing and media manipulation. ¯\_à²*_à²*_/¯

[8~{} Uncle Ad Monster


Truer word that make me puke

trader_4 has brought this to us :
snip quoted Left Wing drivel /snip

On 09/15/2016 12:27 PM, FromTheRafters wrote:
It would certainly speed up the process, and marketing would just love
the great looking numbers. No need to test them for *two* hours when you
get such good results from one hour.

Hi Rafters,

I once asked how the military came up with the numbers.
I don't remember exactly what I got back, but the
term "Fudge Factor" had to apply. I do believe they
did things like speed up aging by heating the guys and then
used formulas to extrapolate the numbers back to room
temperature. Different types of parts had different
formulas. Iron versus silicon, for instance.
Or something like that.


Here is a good example of where MTBF means nothing:

https://www-ssl.intel.com/content/da...-530-brief.pdf

"Life Expectancy: 1.2 million hours Mean Time
Between Failures (MTBF)"


Does anyone actually think that the average lifespan is
137 YEARS? Oh brother. The metal would corrode by then.
The silicone in the transistors would start dripping
and turning back into glass.

The real "Life Expectancy" would be the warranty, which
is five years. And five years is good for such drives.
But 137 years does sound a lot better to the marketing
weasels.

-T

Hmmm. I wonder if I made any typos. AAAAAHHHHHHH !!!!