If you are not willing to protect yourself/family
you should not expect anyone to do so for you.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/am...rticle/2596052

On 7/10/2016 6:16 AM, burfordTjustice wrote:
If you are not willing to protect yourself/family
you should not expect anyone to do so for you.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/am...rticle/2596052

Actually, there is a very good reason that persons who hold a concealed
carry permit tend to carry their firearms at all times. Concealed carry
classes are very informative, and I would strongly suggest people attend
one, simply for the information value.

These classes recommend that deadly force should always be considered a
last ditch effort and the permit holder should first make every attempt
to avoid a confrontation. Vigilance is taught, both for home invasions
and incidents that might occur outside the home.

But the main reason for a permit holder to carry consistently is to
cover himself should he ever appear in court following a deadly force
incident. Better to be able to say that you're a licensed permit holder
and that you carry your gun every day, where you are legally allowed to
carry it. Comes off much better than saying something like you thought
something might happen so you decided to take your gun with you that day.

On 7/10/2016 4:16 AM, burfordTjustice wrote:
If you are not willing to protect yourself/family
you should not expect anyone to do so for you.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/am...rticle/2596052



Thanks fer the advice, Buford. It's a lot like saying 'There ain't no
one or no thing watching over us.' Common sense says that a feller can
only rely on hisself, when the goin' gits tough. At these times it's
the tough that git goin'.
Just sayin'.

Sincerely,
Colonel Edmund J. Burke
U.S. Army, ret.

SeaNymph wrote :
On 7/10/2016 6:16 AM, burfordTjustice wrote:
If you are not willing to protect yourself/family
you should not expect anyone to do so for you.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/am...rticle/2596052

Actually, there is a very good reason that persons who hold a concealed carry
permit tend to carry their firearms at all times. Concealed carry classes
are very informative, and I would strongly suggest people attend one, simply
for the information value.

These classes recommend that deadly force should always be considered a last
ditch effort and the permit holder should first make every attempt to avoid a
confrontation. Vigilance is taught, both for home invasions and incidents
that might occur outside the home.

But the main reason for a permit holder to carry consistently is to cover
himself should he ever appear in court following a deadly force incident.
Better to be able to say that you're a licensed permit holder and that you
carry your gun every day, where you are legally allowed to carry it. Comes
off much better than saying something like you thought something might happen
so you decided to take your gun with you that day.

Also, if a cop stops you it is better to say that you have a permit and
keep your hands in plain sight than to say "I've got a gun" and reach
for your permit.

On Sun, 10 Jul 2016 11:03:43 -0400, FromTheRafters
wrote:

Also, if a cop stops you it is better to say that you have a permit and
keep your hands in plain sight than to say "I've got a gun" and reach
for your permit.

Check your state law. Some states require you to tell the officer that
you're armed, some do not, until he/she ask you specifically.

On 07/10/2016 08:02 AM, SeaNymph wrote:
On 7/10/2016 6:16 AM, burfordTjustice wrote:
If you are not willing to protect yourself/family
you should not expect anyone to do so for you.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/am...rticle/2596052

Actually, there is a very good reason that persons who hold a concealed carry permit tend to carry their firearms at all times.

Employer restricts firearms at work. If I carried one to work, I'd have to leave a firearm unattended in my car.

Concealed carry classes are very informative, and I would strongly suggest people attend one, simply for the information value.


The government should offer self-paced online classes with final exam at a testing center. They think everyone has a 9-5 job with no other commitments after 5pm.

These classes recommend that deadly force should always be considered a last ditch effort and the permit holder should first make every attempt to avoid a confrontation. Vigilance is taught, both for home invasions and incidents that might occur
outside the home.

True. As much as we'd all like to get the drop on a criminal and play Dirty Harry, one wrong decision and *you* could wind up in prison.

But the main reason for a permit holder to carry consistently is to cover himself should he ever appear in court following a deadly force incident. Better to be able to say that you're a licensed permit holder and that you carry your gun every day,
where you are legally allowed to carry it. Comes off much better than saying something like you thought something might happen so you decided to take your gun with you that day.

Oren explained on 7/10/2016 :
On Sun, 10 Jul 2016 11:03:43 -0400, FromTheRafters
wrote:

Also, if a cop stops you it is better to say that you have a permit and
keep your hands in plain sight than to say "I've got a gun" and reach
for your permit.

Check your state law. Some states require you to tell the officer that
you're armed, some do not, until he/she ask you specifically.

Yes, but don't say it and reach for *anything*.

On 07/10/2016 09:16 AM, Bernard Getz wrote:
The government should offer self-paced online classes with final exam at
a testing center. They think everyone has a 9-5 job with no other
commitments after 5pm.


Which government is that? CCW are issued by the states. Self paced? I
can't speak for other states but in this one if you can't absorb the
material presented in an hour or two you shouldn't be carrying anything,
included scissors with sharp points.

On 7/10/2016 1:10 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 07/10/2016 09:16 AM, Bernard Getz wrote:
The government should offer self-paced online classes with final exam at
a testing center. They think everyone has a 9-5 job with no other
commitments after 5pm.


Which government is that? CCW are issued by the states. Self paced? I can't speak for other states but in this one if you can't absorb the
material presented in an hour or two you shouldn't be carrying anything, included scissors with sharp points.

Here the gun board requires 2 hrs a night for 10 nights. There is an ongoing yearly 2 hr refresher class as well. YMMV.

On 7/10/2016 10:03 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:
SeaNymph wrote :
On 7/10/2016 6:16 AM, burfordTjustice wrote:
If you are not willing to protect yourself/family
you should not expect anyone to do so for you.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/am...rticle/2596052


Actually, there is a very good reason that persons who hold a
concealed carry permit tend to carry their firearms at all times.
Concealed carry classes are very informative, and I would strongly
suggest people attend one, simply for the information value.

These classes recommend that deadly force should always be considered
a last ditch effort and the permit holder should first make every
attempt to avoid a confrontation. Vigilance is taught, both for home
invasions and incidents that might occur outside the home.

But the main reason for a permit holder to carry consistently is to
cover himself should he ever appear in court following a deadly force
incident. Better to be able to say that you're a licensed permit
holder and that you carry your gun every day, where you are legally
allowed to carry it. Comes off much better than saying something like
you thought something might happen so you decided to take your gun
with you that day.

Also, if a cop stops you it is better to say that you have a permit and
keep your hands in plain sight than to say "I've got a gun" and reach
for your permit.

That's another point that was made, more than once, in the class. If
you're stopped at night, turn on your dome light and put both your hands
on the steering wheel, in plain sight.

Makes sense to me.

On 7/10/2016 10:16 AM, Bernard Getz wrote:
On 07/10/2016 08:02 AM, SeaNymph wrote:
On 7/10/2016 6:16 AM, burfordTjustice wrote:
If you are not willing to protect yourself/family
you should not expect anyone to do so for you.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/am...rticle/2596052


Actually, there is a very good reason that persons who hold a
concealed carry permit tend to carry their firearms at all times.

Employer restricts firearms at work. If I carried one to work, I'd have
to leave a firearm unattended in my car.

We discussed this and the simple answer is, if "work" includes the
parking lot, leave your gun at home. If not, they make small safes that
will fit under your seat, leave the gun in there.

On 07/10/2016 01:53 PM, Sol Zahl wrote:
On 7/10/2016 1:10 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 07/10/2016 09:16 AM, Bernard Getz wrote:
The government should offer self-paced online classes with final exam at
a testing center. They think everyone has a 9-5 job with no other
commitments after 5pm.


Which government is that? CCW are issued by the states. Self paced? I
can't speak for other states but in this one if you can't absorb the
material presented in an hour or two you shouldn't be carrying
anything, included scissors with sharp points.

Here the gun board requires 2 hrs a night for 10 nights. There is an
ongoing yearly 2 hr refresher class as well. YMMV.

My M definitely did vary. I took the course a few years ago out of
curiosity. It was a Saturday class, perhaps 7 hours in all including
lunch and driving over to the range for live fire exercises. I'm no
expert but I found I knew more about firearms than most of the
attendees. I'd been target shooting most of my life while some had very
recently purchased their firearm or were contemplating the purchase.

fwiw, I never did apply for the CCW. If I do carry a firearm, it's in
the back country where a CCW is not required. Even in town where open
carry is legal I don't have a urgent need to go grocery shopping with a
..45 on my hip.

A local sporting goods store also offers Saturday training sessions for
a Utah CCW. I'm not sure how that works but apparently Utah has more
reciprocal agreements than Montana and offers permits to non-residents.

On 07/10/2016 02:54 PM, SeaNymph wrote:
That's another point that was made, more than once, in the class. If
you're stopped at night, turn on your dome light and put both your hands
on the steering wheel, in plain sight.

I do that as a matter of course even without a CCW. I was amused when
after one friendly interaction that resulted in a warning ticket when
the officer asked me if there were any guns or knives in my vehicle that
he should know about. "No, sir!". Meanwhile I was thinking "Give me a
few minutes and I'll work up an inventory. Should I start with the
SpyderCo in my back pocket?"

I figure a traffic stop is a lot more stressful for the cop than me and
there's no reason to raise his adrenalin levels.

On 7/10/2016 11:16 AM, Bernard Getz wrote:

Employer restricts firearms at work. If I carried one to work, I'd have
to leave a firearm unattended in my car.


They sell key or combination lock boxes for vehicles. Many fit under the
seat.




True. As much as we'd all like to get the drop on a criminal and play
Dirty Harry, one wrong decision and *you* could wind up in prison.


Depends on the state. I always recommend people getting into the habit
of using their cell phone video recorder or at the least, the audio
recorder if they plan to interact.

On 7/10/2016 4:56 PM, SeaNymph wrote:
On 7/10/2016 10:16 AM, Bernard Getz wrote:
On 07/10/2016 08:02 AM, SeaNymph wrote:
On 7/10/2016 6:16 AM, burfordTjustice wrote:
If you are not willing to protect yourself/family
you should not expect anyone to do so for you.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/am...rticle/2596052


Actually, there is a very good reason that persons who hold a
concealed carry permit tend to carry their firearms at all times.

Employer restricts firearms at work. If I carried one to work, I'd have
to leave a firearm unattended in my car.

We discussed this and the simple answer is, if "work" includes the parking lot, leave your gun at home. If not, they make small safes that will
fit under your seat, leave the gun in there.



Is the safe locked/secured to the car?

On 07/10/2016 05:33 PM, Sol Zahl wrote:


Is the safe locked/secured to the car?

It can be. Can it be removed? Sure. Have firearms ever been stolen from
locked safes in police cruisers? Yes. Like anything the purpose is to
discourage casual theft.

On Sun, 10 Jul 2016 15:33:00 -0600
rbowman wrote:

I was amused when
after one friendly interaction that resulted in a warning ticket


How many times you been stopped?

On 7/10/2016 4:33 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 07/10/2016 02:54 PM, SeaNymph wrote:
That's another point that was made, more than once, in the class. If
you're stopped at night, turn on your dome light and put both your hands
on the steering wheel, in plain sight.

I do that as a matter of course even without a CCW. I was amused when
after one friendly interaction that resulted in a warning ticket when
the officer asked me if there were any guns or knives in my vehicle that
he should know about. "No, sir!". Meanwhile I was thinking "Give me a
few minutes and I'll work up an inventory. Should I start with the
SpyderCo in my back pocket?"

I figure a traffic stop is a lot more stressful for the cop than me and
there's no reason to raise his adrenalin levels.

Well, we were told in the class that it's better for you to tell the
officer, right away, that you're carrying. Explain that you have a
concealed carry permit, and tell him where the gun is.

On 7/10/2016 4:23 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 07/10/2016 01:53 PM, Sol Zahl wrote:
On 7/10/2016 1:10 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 07/10/2016 09:16 AM, Bernard Getz wrote:
The government should offer self-paced online classes with final
exam at
a testing center. They think everyone has a 9-5 job with no other
commitments after 5pm.


Which government is that? CCW are issued by the states. Self paced? I
can't speak for other states but in this one if you can't absorb the
material presented in an hour or two you shouldn't be carrying
anything, included scissors with sharp points.

Here the gun board requires 2 hrs a night for 10 nights. There is an
ongoing yearly 2 hr refresher class as well. YMMV.

My M definitely did vary. I took the course a few years ago out of
curiosity. It was a Saturday class, perhaps 7 hours in all including
lunch and driving over to the range for live fire exercises. I'm no
expert but I found I knew more about firearms than most of the
attendees. I'd been target shooting most of my life while some had very
recently purchased their firearm or were contemplating the purchase.

fwiw, I never did apply for the CCW. If I do carry a firearm, it's in
the back country where a CCW is not required. Even in town where open
carry is legal I don't have a urgent need to go grocery shopping with a
.45 on my hip.

A local sporting goods store also offers Saturday training sessions for
a Utah CCW. I'm not sure how that works but apparently Utah has more
reciprocal agreements than Montana and offers permits to non-residents.


Lot of reciprocity in most places. The Minnesota permit is recognized
by 27 states and you can add another 10 or so if you want to pay the
price of Florida permit.

On 7/10/2016 5:01 PM, Meanie wrote:
On 7/10/2016 11:16 AM, Bernard Getz wrote:

Employer restricts firearms at work. If I carried one to work, I'd have
to leave a firearm unattended in my car.


They sell key or combination lock boxes for vehicles. Many fit under the
seat.




True. As much as we'd all like to get the drop on a criminal and play
Dirty Harry, one wrong decision and *you* could wind up in prison.


Depends on the state. I always recommend people getting into the habit
of using their cell phone video recorder or at the least, the audio
recorder if they plan to interact.

The rules in each state are vastly differently for the use of deadly
force. Coming from Texas, I was surprised at how different things are
in Minnesota.

Another point that was made during the class was that any interview with
law enforcement, following a deadly force incident, should not be held
unless you have a lawyer present. We were told to inform the officers
that we would cooperate fully but wanted to wait until our lawyer arrived.

On 07/11/2016 04:15 AM, burfordTjustice wrote:
On Sun, 10 Jul 2016 15:33:00 -0600
rbowman wrote:

I was amused when
after one friendly interaction that resulted in a warning ticket


How many times you been stopped?


I don't know. Maybe 10 times in my life. Sometimes I got a ticket,
sometimes not. I never got shot though.

On 7/11/2016 7:50 AM, SeaNymph wrote:
On 7/10/2016 4:23 PM, rbowman wrote:

A local sporting goods store also offers Saturday training sessions for
a Utah CCW. I'm not sure how that works but apparently Utah has more
reciprocal agreements than Montana and offers permits to non-residents.


Lot of reciprocity in most places. The Minnesota permit is recognized
by 27 states and you can add another 10 or so if you want to pay the
price of Florida permit.


Why is it that a RKBA (which the Constitution says
may not be infringed) needs a permit at all? Why
do some states refuse to recognize the RKBA of
other states?

While the right to drive a motor vehicle (which is
not protected by the Constitution) has reciprocity
in all 50 states, Canada, and Mexico?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 7/11/2016 9:28 AM, rbowman wrote:

How many times you been stopped?


I don't know. Maybe 10 times in my life. Sometimes I got a ticket,
sometimes not. I never got shot though.

Did you have heavy beat rap music playing,
and did you call the cop a mofo mofo? If
you want to get shot, you really have to
work hard, now days.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 06:52:41 -0500
SeaNymph wrote:

On 7/10/2016 5:01 PM, Meanie wrote:
On 7/10/2016 11:16 AM, Bernard Getz wrote:

Employer restricts firearms at work. If I carried one to work, I'd
have to leave a firearm unattended in my car.


They sell key or combination lock boxes for vehicles. Many fit
under the seat.




True. As much as we'd all like to get the drop on a criminal and
play Dirty Harry, one wrong decision and *you* could wind up in
prison.


Depends on the state. I always recommend people getting into the
habit of using their cell phone video recorder or at the least, the
audio recorder if they plan to interact.

The rules in each state are vastly differently for the use of deadly
force. Coming from Texas, I was surprised at how different things
are in Minnesota.

Another point that was made during the class was that any interview
with law enforcement, following a deadly force incident, should not
be held unless you have a lawyer present. We were told to inform the
officers that we would cooperate fully but wanted to wait until our
lawyer arrived.


Exactly and that should be tomorrow or the next day.
What you think you know when hyped up after a shooting
and what you know 24-48 hours later after you calm
down can be entirely different.
So if you say something at the scene and again at another
interview and they are different..big issue.

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 07:28:54 -0600
rbowman wrote:

On 07/11/2016 04:15 AM, burfordTjustice wrote:
On Sun, 10 Jul 2016 15:33:00 -0600
rbowman wrote:

I was amused when
after one friendly interaction that resulted in a warning ticket


How many times you been stopped?


I don't know. Maybe 10 times in my life. Sometimes I got a ticket,
sometimes not. I never got shot though.

That is amazing, I have only been stopped once ever.
Do you drive like a maniac?

On 7/11/2016 8:30 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 7/11/2016 7:50 AM, SeaNymph wrote:
On 7/10/2016 4:23 PM, rbowman wrote:

A local sporting goods store also offers Saturday training sessions for
a Utah CCW. I'm not sure how that works but apparently Utah has more
reciprocal agreements than Montana and offers permits to non-residents.


Lot of reciprocity in most places. The Minnesota permit is recognized
by 27 states and you can add another 10 or so if you want to pay the
price of Florida permit.


Why is it that a RKBA (which the Constitution says
may not be infringed) needs a permit at all? Why
do some states refuse to recognize the RKBA of
other states?

While the right to drive a motor vehicle (which is
not protected by the Constitution) has reciprocity
in all 50 states, Canada, and Mexico?

Well, I can't answer that question. Imo, it's just a way for the
government to attempt to track and control it's citizens.

On 7/11/2016 10:37 AM, burfordTjustice wrote:
On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 06:52:41 -0500
SeaNymph wrote:

On 7/10/2016 5:01 PM, Meanie wrote:
On 7/10/2016 11:16 AM, Bernard Getz wrote:

Employer restricts firearms at work. If I carried one to work, I'd
have to leave a firearm unattended in my car.


They sell key or combination lock boxes for vehicles. Many fit
under the seat.




True. As much as we'd all like to get the drop on a criminal and
play Dirty Harry, one wrong decision and *you* could wind up in
prison.


Depends on the state. I always recommend people getting into the
habit of using their cell phone video recorder or at the least, the
audio recorder if they plan to interact.

The rules in each state are vastly differently for the use of deadly
force. Coming from Texas, I was surprised at how different things
are in Minnesota.

Another point that was made during the class was that any interview
with law enforcement, following a deadly force incident, should not
be held unless you have a lawyer present. We were told to inform the
officers that we would cooperate fully but wanted to wait until our
lawyer arrived.


Exactly and that should be tomorrow or the next day.
What you think you know when hyped up after a shooting
and what you know 24-48 hours later after you calm
down can be entirely different.
So if you say something at the scene and again at another
interview and they are different..big issue.

And that's exactly why the advice is offered. Apparently, the
adrenaline dump is quite severe.

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 10:45:08 -0500
SeaNymph wrote:

On 7/11/2016 10:37 AM, burfordTjustice wrote:
On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 06:52:41 -0500
SeaNymph wrote:

On 7/10/2016 5:01 PM, Meanie wrote:
On 7/10/2016 11:16 AM, Bernard Getz wrote:

Employer restricts firearms at work. If I carried one to work,
I'd have to leave a firearm unattended in my car.


They sell key or combination lock boxes for vehicles. Many fit
under the seat.




True. As much as we'd all like to get the drop on a criminal and
play Dirty Harry, one wrong decision and *you* could wind up in
prison.


Depends on the state. I always recommend people getting into the
habit of using their cell phone video recorder or at the least,
the audio recorder if they plan to interact.

The rules in each state are vastly differently for the use of
deadly force. Coming from Texas, I was surprised at how different
things are in Minnesota.

Another point that was made during the class was that any interview
with law enforcement, following a deadly force incident, should not
be held unless you have a lawyer present. We were told to inform
the officers that we would cooperate fully but wanted to wait
until our lawyer arrived.


Exactly and that should be tomorrow or the next day.
What you think you know when hyped up after a shooting
and what you know 24-48 hours later after you calm
down can be entirely different.
So if you say something at the scene and again at another
interview and they are different..big issue.

And that's exactly why the advice is offered. Apparently, the
adrenaline dump is quite severe.


Indeed. Even a game hunter gets a dump after a kill,
except for snakes and spiders.

On 07/11/2016 09:39 AM, burfordTjustice wrote:
That is amazing, I have only been stopped once ever.
Do you drive like a maniac?

I've been known to although I'm slowing down in my old age. Of course it
helps that the interstate speed limit is up to 80 around here. I've even
been stopped for a defective tail light. I got a fixit ticket and the
trooper relieved me of my switchblade. He needed a new toy.

When I was a young long-haired hippie freak I got stopped a few times on
general principles. Profiling and police harassment, dontcha know. Now
I'm an old long-haired hippie freak and they don't bother me as much.
Except for the TSA.

I got pulled over about five years ago for defective tail lights again.
That time I had to explain very slowly that just because my headlights
were on didn't mean my tail lights should be on. Fortunately my current
ride doesn't have the stupid daytime headlights thing.

On 07/11/2016 09:45 AM, SeaNymph wrote:

And that's exactly why the advice is offered. Apparently, the
adrenaline dump is quite severe.

I'm not too fond of his sheepdog analogies but Grossman's books like 'On
Killing' or 'On Combat' is a good read if you're planning to kill someone.

http://www.chl-plus.com/Lt_Col_Dave_...of_killing.htm

If you dump your bowels and bladder along with your adrenaline, you
aren't the Lone Ranger. Then there's the tunnel vision, time warp, and
other goodies. He's done a lot of training and talked to a lot of people
over the years. Many of them don't really know what the hell happened.
They piece together a story from the fragments they remember which may
not match reality. They're not lying, they were just off in an alternate
universe.

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 19:22:13 -0600
rbowman wrote:

On 07/11/2016 09:39 AM, burfordTjustice wrote:
That is amazing, I have only been stopped once ever.
Do you drive like a maniac?

I've been known to although I'm slowing down in my old age. Of course
it helps that the interstate speed limit is up to 80 around here.
I've even been stopped for a defective tail light. I got a fixit
ticket and the trooper relieved me of my switchblade. He needed a new
toy.

When I was a young long-haired hippie freak I got stopped a few times
on general principles. Profiling and police harassment, dontcha know.
Now I'm an old long-haired hippie freak and they don't bother me as
much. Except for the TSA.

I got pulled over about five years ago for defective tail lights
again. That time I had to explain very slowly that just because my
headlights were on didn't mean my tail lights should be on.
Fortunately my current ride doesn't have the stupid daytime
headlights thing.



LOL....great start to the day..Thanks

SeaNymph
Mon, 11 Jul 2016 11:48:58 GMT in alt.politics.scorched-earth, wrote:

Well, we were told in the class that it's better for you to tell
the officer, right away, that you're carrying. Explain that you
have a concealed carry permit, and tell him where the gun is.

Makes sense, too. Wouldn't want anyone potentially being shot over a
misunderstanding.


--
MID:
Hmmm. I most certainly don't understand how I can access a copy of a
zip file but then not be able to unzip it so I can watch it. That
seems VERY clever!
http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?ID=145716711400