On Thu, 1 Oct 2015 05:45:28 -0700, Colon Edmund Burke of Ladyboise,
Idaho wrote:

On 10/1/2015 1:19 AM, Ian Jackson wrote:
The USA finally takes to roundabouts.
http://nyti.ms/1N3v0tI

When I was visiting some friends in Sandy Eggo, they took me down to
Tijuana where they have these traffic circles. It was a fun time to sit
and watch the cars on the merry-go-round. ;-)

You need roundabouts like the Magic Rpundabout in Hemel Hemptsead!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVeAhmvNFIU

NEMO wrote:
On Thu, 1 Oct 2015 05:45:28 -0700, Colon Edmund Burke of Ladyboise,
Idaho wrote:

On 10/1/2015 1:19 AM, Ian Jackson wrote:
The USA finally takes to roundabouts.
http://nyti.ms/1N3v0tI

When I was visiting some friends in Sandy Eggo, they took me down to
Tijuana where they have these traffic circles. It was a fun time to sit
and watch the cars on the merry-go-round. ;-)

You need roundabouts like the Magic Rpundabout in Hemel Hemptsead!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVeAhmvNFIU

We have one on the other side of freeway. another subdivision. When I go
there, i notice people living in the surrounding neighborhood don't even
know how to use it.

On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 22:25:33 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

When I was visiting some friends in Sandy Eggo, they took me down to
Tijuana where they have these traffic circles. It was a fun time to sit
and watch the cars on the merry-go-round. ;-)

You need roundabouts like the Magic Rpundabout in Hemel Hemptsead!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVeAhmvNFIU

We have one on the other side of freeway. another subdivision. When I go
there, i notice people living in the surrounding neighborhood don't even
know how to use it.

They put in some of them not far from my home. I absolutely hate them.
I'll drive a couple miles further or drive thru alleys just to avoid the
damn things. I think they are completely assinine. About 20 families
lost their homes and a dozen businesses were shoved out, so that the
city could rip down all those buildings to build a TRIPLE roundabout. It
used to be a simple stop light, where it took a minute sitting at the
light. Now it takes 5 minutes to manuver around that goddamn thing, and
uses 3 times as much gas. The city spent millions of dollars to build
that moronic thing so they could save a couple hundred dollars of
electricity to power the stop light.

I have not found one person in that city that wanted it before they
built it, and not one person that likes it now. But their idiot
politicians built it anyway!

You literally have to drive about 3 or 4 blocks past the original stop
light, then drive back those 3 or 4 blocks to turn onto that cross road.

One guy who lives there said "they hired all the town's drunks, got them
very drunk, and let them design it while they were intoxicated".

I fully agree!

In message ,
writes
On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 22:25:33 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

When I was visiting some friends in Sandy Eggo, they took me down to
Tijuana where they have these traffic circles. It was a fun time to sit
and watch the cars on the merry-go-round. ;-)

You need roundabouts like the Magic Rpundabout in Hemel Hemptsead!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVeAhmvNFIU

The virtue of having several mini-roundabouts around the periphery of a
large roundabout is that it breaks up the traffic, and also slows it
down.

Bearing in mind that in the UK, you have to give way ("yield") to
traffic to your the right (already on a roundabout), this gives those
entering junctions a fairly even chance of joining the traffic flow. The
disadvantage of large roundabouts is that traffic already the roundabout
can travel at a considerable speed, or get bunched up (or both). This
makes it difficult for anyone trying to enter the traffic flow.

We have one on the other side of freeway. another subdivision. When I go
there, i notice people living in the surrounding neighborhood don't even
know how to use it.

They put in some of them not far from my home. I absolutely hate them.
I'll drive a couple miles further or drive thru alleys just to avoid the
damn things. I think they are completely assinine. About 20 families
lost their homes and a dozen businesses were shoved out, so that the
city could rip down all those buildings to build a TRIPLE roundabout. It
used to be a simple stop light, where it took a minute sitting at the
light. Now it takes 5 minutes to manuver around that goddamn thing, and
uses 3 times as much gas. The city spent millions of dollars to build
that moronic thing so they could save a couple hundred dollars of
electricity to power the stop light.

The whole idea of roundabouts is to try to prevent traffic having to
stop. Could it be that many drivers in your benighted country haven't
yet learned how to use them properly? Maybe you don't have the necessary
skills and discipline to know when to keep going (if you can), and when
to give way (if you can't)?

I have not found one person in that city that wanted it before they
built it, and not one person that likes it now. But their idiot
politicians built it anyway!

You literally have to drive about 3 or 4 blocks past the original stop
light, then drive back those 3 or 4 blocks to turn onto that cross road.

One guy who lives there said "they hired all the town's drunks, got them
very drunk, and let them design it while they were intoxicated".

I fully agree!

I have to admit that roundabouts do have their limitations.

If traffic is too heavy, they can clog up, and things are then worse
than having traffic lights. The simplistic fix is to install lights,
giving you the best/worst of both worlds.

Unfortunately, in the UK, local authority traffic planners often seem
pretty dim (I suspect many don't/can't drive). They often don't seem to
realise that traffic lights may not really be necessary on some of the
roundabouts where they have decided to install them. And even if they
are necessary at peak traffic times, they can actually be switched off
when their use is not warranted. OK, there are some part-time lights,
but they are surprisingly rare.

However, in the UK, roundabouts are generally considered to be 'a good
thing'. We pour scorn on those that have so far failed to realise their
obvious advantages. I would suggest you have a quick look at the British
Highway Code, and you'll see how to use them. Of course, as we drive on
the correct side of the road over here, where necessary you'll have to
swap left for right, and vice versa. Start at Section 4 (page 81, para
184).
http://bit.ly/1Oi1T4t






--

In message , Ian Jackson
writes


I would suggest you have a quick look at the British Highway Code, and
you'll see how to use them. Of course, as we drive on the correct side
of the road over here, where necessary you'll have to swap left for
right, and vice versa. Start at Section 4 (page 81, para 184).
http://bit.ly/1Oi1T4t

And this video might also help.
http://bit.ly/1OjbOZf








--
Ian

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 6:28:06 AM UTC-5, Ian Jackson wrote:

In message , Ian Jackson
writes


I would suggest you have a quick look at the British Highway Code, and
you'll see how to use them. Of course, as we drive on the correct side
of the road over here, where necessary you'll have to swap left for
right, and vice versa. Start at Section 4 (page 81, para 184).
http://bit.ly/1Oi1T4t

And this video might also help.
http://bit.ly/1OjbOZf

Ian


Now I fully understand why many people hate them.

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 5:30:04 AM UTC-4, wrote:


I don't see any evidence that there is any movement to go to
traffic circles here in the USA. In NJ, we've been slowly going
the opposite way. They have been in use here for over half a
century, but starting about 25 years ago, they stopped doing new
ones and have been slowly taking out the remaining ones. Very
few left here now.

On Tue, 6 Oct 2015 11:45:00 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message ,
writes
On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 22:25:33 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

When I was visiting some friends in Sandy Eggo, they took me down to
Tijuana where they have these traffic circles. It was a fun time to sit
and watch the cars on the merry-go-round. ;-)

You need roundabouts like the Magic Rpundabout in Hemel Hemptsead!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVeAhmvNFIU

The virtue of having several mini-roundabouts around the periphery of a
large roundabout is that it breaks up the traffic, and also slows it
down.

Bearing in mind that in the UK, you have to give way ("yield") to
traffic to your the right (already on a roundabout), this gives those
entering junctions a fairly even chance of joining the traffic flow. The
disadvantage of large roundabouts is that traffic already the roundabout
can travel at a considerable speed, or get bunched up (or both). This
makes it difficult for anyone trying to enter the traffic flow.

We have one on the other side of freeway. another subdivision. When I go
there, i notice people living in the surrounding neighborhood don't even
know how to use it.

They put in some of them not far from my home. I absolutely hate them.
I'll drive a couple miles further or drive thru alleys just to avoid the
damn things. I think they are completely assinine. About 20 families
lost their homes and a dozen businesses were shoved out, so that the
city could rip down all those buildings to build a TRIPLE roundabout. It
used to be a simple stop light, where it took a minute sitting at the
light. Now it takes 5 minutes to manuver around that goddamn thing, and
uses 3 times as much gas. The city spent millions of dollars to build
that moronic thing so they could save a couple hundred dollars of
electricity to power the stop light.

The whole idea of roundabouts is to try to prevent traffic having to
stop. Could it be that many drivers in your benighted country haven't
yet learned how to use them properly? Maybe you don't have the necessary
skills and discipline to know when to keep going (if you can), and when
to give way (if you can't)?

I have not found one person in that city that wanted it before they
built it, and not one person that likes it now. But their idiot
politicians built it anyway!

You literally have to drive about 3 or 4 blocks past the original stop
light, then drive back those 3 or 4 blocks to turn onto that cross road.

One guy who lives there said "they hired all the town's drunks, got them
very drunk, and let them design it while they were intoxicated".

I fully agree!

I have to admit that roundabouts do have their limitations.

If traffic is too heavy, they can clog up, and things are then worse
than having traffic lights. The simplistic fix is to install lights,
giving you the best/worst of both worlds.

Unfortunately, in the UK, local authority traffic planners often seem
pretty dim (I suspect many don't/can't drive). They often don't seem to
realise that traffic lights may not really be necessary on some of the
roundabouts where they have decided to install them. And even if they
are necessary at peak traffic times, they can actually be switched off
when their use is not warranted. OK, there are some part-time lights,
but they are surprisingly rare.

However, in the UK, roundabouts are generally considered to be 'a good
thing'. We pour scorn on those that have so far failed to realise their
obvious advantages. I would suggest you have a quick look at the British
Highway Code, and you'll see how to use them. Of course, as we drive on
the correct side of the road over here, where necessary you'll have to
swap left for right, and vice versa. Start at Section 4 (page 81, para
184).
http://bit.ly/1Oi1T4t






They work fine until traffic overloads them, then it is just a
cluster****

The main excuse I hear in the US that makes any sense at all is they
are a traffic calming device that slows people down. That is not
really a popular idea unless it is in front of your house.

DC is full of them but the typical bumper to bumper traffic forced
them to install lights on them and then you have that "worst of both
worlds". They tunneled under the worst of them.

Yes the rules are the same and everyone understands the car in the
circle has the right of way but when the circle is full because the
road up stream of you is full, there is no getting on the circle. Than
that road backs up and pretty soon you have the classic grid lock
where nobody is moving..

On 10/6/2015 12:25 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:
NEMO wrote:
On Thu, 1 Oct 2015 05:45:28 -0700, Colon Edmund Burke of Ladyboise,
Idaho wrote:

On 10/1/2015 1:19 AM, Ian Jackson wrote:
The USA finally takes to roundabouts.
http://nyti.ms/1N3v0tI

When I was visiting some friends in Sandy Eggo, they took me down to
Tijuana where they have these traffic circles. It was a fun time to sit
and watch the cars on the merry-go-round. ;-)

You need roundabouts like the Magic Rpundabout in Hemel Hemptsead!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVeAhmvNFIU

We have one on the other side of freeway. another subdivision. When I go
there, i notice people living in the surrounding neighborhood don't even
know how to use it.
They, or it, works really fine here in western NC, except ... we have
many drivers that drive the way they did when all the roads here were
cow paths. I have seen people come to a complete stop before entering
even though there are yield signs at every road. They also creep
through a 2 MPH. That all said, as I said in the beginning, it does
work well. It is a pretty busy area as there is a big Super WM and
another small strip mall.

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 9:05:25 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 6 Oct 2015 11:45:00 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message ,
writes
On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 22:25:33 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

When I was visiting some friends in Sandy Eggo, they took me down to
Tijuana where they have these traffic circles. It was a fun time to sit
and watch the cars on the merry-go-round. ;-)

You need roundabouts like the Magic Rpundabout in Hemel Hemptsead!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVeAhmvNFIU

The virtue of having several mini-roundabouts around the periphery of a
large roundabout is that it breaks up the traffic, and also slows it
down.

Bearing in mind that in the UK, you have to give way ("yield") to
traffic to your the right (already on a roundabout), this gives those
entering junctions a fairly even chance of joining the traffic flow. The
disadvantage of large roundabouts is that traffic already the roundabout
can travel at a considerable speed, or get bunched up (or both). This
makes it difficult for anyone trying to enter the traffic flow.

We have one on the other side of freeway. another subdivision. When I go
there, i notice people living in the surrounding neighborhood don't even
know how to use it.

They put in some of them not far from my home. I absolutely hate them.
I'll drive a couple miles further or drive thru alleys just to avoid the
damn things. I think they are completely assinine. About 20 families
lost their homes and a dozen businesses were shoved out, so that the
city could rip down all those buildings to build a TRIPLE roundabout. It
used to be a simple stop light, where it took a minute sitting at the
light. Now it takes 5 minutes to manuver around that goddamn thing, and
uses 3 times as much gas. The city spent millions of dollars to build
that moronic thing so they could save a couple hundred dollars of
electricity to power the stop light.

The whole idea of roundabouts is to try to prevent traffic having to
stop. Could it be that many drivers in your benighted country haven't
yet learned how to use them properly? Maybe you don't have the necessary
skills and discipline to know when to keep going (if you can), and when
to give way (if you can't)?

I have not found one person in that city that wanted it before they
built it, and not one person that likes it now. But their idiot
politicians built it anyway!

You literally have to drive about 3 or 4 blocks past the original stop
light, then drive back those 3 or 4 blocks to turn onto that cross road.

One guy who lives there said "they hired all the town's drunks, got them
very drunk, and let them design it while they were intoxicated".

I fully agree!

I have to admit that roundabouts do have their limitations.

If traffic is too heavy, they can clog up, and things are then worse
than having traffic lights. The simplistic fix is to install lights,
giving you the best/worst of both worlds.

Unfortunately, in the UK, local authority traffic planners often seem
pretty dim (I suspect many don't/can't drive). They often don't seem to
realise that traffic lights may not really be necessary on some of the
roundabouts where they have decided to install them. And even if they
are necessary at peak traffic times, they can actually be switched off
when their use is not warranted. OK, there are some part-time lights,
but they are surprisingly rare.

However, in the UK, roundabouts are generally considered to be 'a good
thing'. We pour scorn on those that have so far failed to realise their
obvious advantages. I would suggest you have a quick look at the British
Highway Code, and you'll see how to use them. Of course, as we drive on
the correct side of the road over here, where necessary you'll have to
swap left for right, and vice versa. Start at Section 4 (page 81, para
184).
http://bit.ly/1Oi1T4t






They work fine until traffic overloads them, then it is just a
cluster****

The main excuse I hear in the US that makes any sense at all is they
are a traffic calming device that slows people down. That is not
really a popular idea unless it is in front of your house.

DC is full of them but the typical bumper to bumper traffic forced
them to install lights on them and then you have that "worst of both
worlds". They tunneled under the worst of them.

Yes the rules are the same and everyone understands the car in the
circle has the right of way but when the circle is full because the
road up stream of you is full, there is no getting on the circle. Than
that road backs up and pretty soon you have the classic grid lock
where nobody is moving..

Regarding who has the right-of-way, here in NJ, I thought the rule was
what you stated, that the car in the circle has it. But I recently lost
that debate. Turns out under NJ law there is no standard as to which
car has the ROW, and it's based on what is locally accepted at each
circle based on traffic flow, etc. I know that sounds crazy and IDK
how you could resolve who is at fault, etc, but that's what it is here.

In message ,
trader_4 writes



Regarding who has the right-of-way, here in NJ, I thought the rule was
what you stated, that the car in the circle has it. But I recently lost
that debate. Turns out under NJ law there is no standard as to which
car has the ROW, and it's based on what is locally accepted at each
circle based on traffic flow, etc. I know that sounds crazy and IDK
how you could resolve who is at fault, etc, but that's what it is here.

You lot really ought to get your traffic sorted out. You're as bad as
the French (or at least how they used to be). They (and many other
European countries) had a fiercely guarded 'priority to the right' rule
that was preserved long after roundabouts were introduced in a large
scale. This meant that when traffic was heavy, circulating traffic could
have great difficulty leaving the roundabout. On my first visit to Paris
by car, I had to go around the Arc de Triomphe roundabout (La Place de
l'Etoile) three times before I could force an exit. Fortunately, these
days there are far fewer priorities to the right, and nearly all road
junctions are appropriately signed - even though many 'priorities to the
left' are marked not as 'Priority to the left', but instead cryptically
as "You do not have priority'!

In the USA, I'm amazed to the no-priority '4-way stop' crossroads. The
rule seems to be that the guy who thinks he got there first assumes he
has priority. That said, when driving over there, driving is normally a
pleasure, and the drivers tend to be somewhat more considerate than here
in the UK and in Continental Europe.
--
Ian

On 10/6/2015 9:56 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 9:05:25 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 6 Oct 2015 11:45:00 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message ,
writes
On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 22:25:33 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

When I was visiting some friends in Sandy Eggo, they took me down to
Tijuana where they have these traffic circles. It was a fun time to sit
and watch the cars on the merry-go-round. ;-)

You need roundabouts like the Magic Rpundabout in Hemel Hemptsead!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVeAhmvNFIU

The virtue of having several mini-roundabouts around the periphery of a
large roundabout is that it breaks up the traffic, and also slows it
down.

Bearing in mind that in the UK, you have to give way ("yield") to
traffic to your the right (already on a roundabout), this gives those
entering junctions a fairly even chance of joining the traffic flow. The
disadvantage of large roundabouts is that traffic already the roundabout
can travel at a considerable speed, or get bunched up (or both). This
makes it difficult for anyone trying to enter the traffic flow.

We have one on the other side of freeway. another subdivision. When I go
there, i notice people living in the surrounding neighborhood don't even
know how to use it.

They put in some of them not far from my home. I absolutely hate them.
I'll drive a couple miles further or drive thru alleys just to avoid the
damn things. I think they are completely assinine. About 20 families
lost their homes and a dozen businesses were shoved out, so that the
city could rip down all those buildings to build a TRIPLE roundabout. It
used to be a simple stop light, where it took a minute sitting at the
light. Now it takes 5 minutes to manuver around that goddamn thing, and
uses 3 times as much gas. The city spent millions of dollars to build
that moronic thing so they could save a couple hundred dollars of
electricity to power the stop light.

The whole idea of roundabouts is to try to prevent traffic having to
stop. Could it be that many drivers in your benighted country haven't
yet learned how to use them properly? Maybe you don't have the necessary
skills and discipline to know when to keep going (if you can), and when
to give way (if you can't)?

I have not found one person in that city that wanted it before they
built it, and not one person that likes it now. But their idiot
politicians built it anyway!

You literally have to drive about 3 or 4 blocks past the original stop
light, then drive back those 3 or 4 blocks to turn onto that cross road.

One guy who lives there said "they hired all the town's drunks, got them
very drunk, and let them design it while they were intoxicated".

I fully agree!

I have to admit that roundabouts do have their limitations.

If traffic is too heavy, they can clog up, and things are then worse
than having traffic lights. The simplistic fix is to install lights,
giving you the best/worst of both worlds.

Unfortunately, in the UK, local authority traffic planners often seem
pretty dim (I suspect many don't/can't drive). They often don't seem to
realise that traffic lights may not really be necessary on some of the
roundabouts where they have decided to install them. And even if they
are necessary at peak traffic times, they can actually be switched off
when their use is not warranted. OK, there are some part-time lights,
but they are surprisingly rare.

However, in the UK, roundabouts are generally considered to be 'a good
thing'. We pour scorn on those that have so far failed to realise their
obvious advantages. I would suggest you have a quick look at the British
Highway Code, and you'll see how to use them. Of course, as we drive on
the correct side of the road over here, where necessary you'll have to
swap left for right, and vice versa. Start at Section 4 (page 81, para
184).
http://bit.ly/1Oi1T4t






They work fine until traffic overloads them, then it is just a
cluster****

The main excuse I hear in the US that makes any sense at all is they
are a traffic calming device that slows people down. That is not
really a popular idea unless it is in front of your house.

DC is full of them but the typical bumper to bumper traffic forced
them to install lights on them and then you have that "worst of both
worlds". They tunneled under the worst of them.

Yes the rules are the same and everyone understands the car in the
circle has the right of way but when the circle is full because the
road up stream of you is full, there is no getting on the circle. Than
that road backs up and pretty soon you have the classic grid lock
where nobody is moving..

Regarding who has the right-of-way, here in NJ, I thought the rule was
what you stated, that the car in the circle has it. But I recently lost
that debate. Turns out under NJ law there is no standard as to which
car has the ROW, and it's based on what is locally accepted at each
circle based on traffic flow, etc. I know that sounds crazy and IDK
how you could resolve who is at fault, etc, but that's what it is here.


It's the same as in the UK except here in US it is traffic on your left
which is already in the round-about as you enter.

I dislike them too, maybe because we have so few of them and are not
used to the routine.

Visitor from UK was ****ed that we did not have them. He missed a turn
and there was no round-about to help him out.

In message , Frank "frank
writes





Visitor from UK was ****ed that we did not have them. He missed a turn
and there was no round-about to help him out.

I'm not surprised. In rural Pennsylvania, at an otherwise deserted
crossroads, I was obliged to sit waiting for ages until the apparently
un-triggered traffic lights decided to get around to changing to green.

In the UK, it's not unusual to find roundabouts even on small roads.
What was originally a T-junction or a crossroads is often converted
simply by having a (say) 3' diameter white 'blob' (sometimes very
slightly domed) painted in the centre. The approach roads each have the
mini-roundabout sign, and all drivers know that, if necessary, they have
to give way to a vehicle approaching (or cutting across them) from their
right. There's never any "I got here first" debacle, and rarely any need
to install traffic lights.
--
Ian

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 10:58:42 AM UTC-4, Ian Jackson wrote:


In the USA, I'm amazed to the no-priority '4-way stop' crossroads. The
rule seems to be that the guy who thinks he got there first assumes he
has priority. That said, when driving over there, driving is normally a
pleasure, and the drivers tend to be somewhat more considerate than here
in the UK and in Continental Europe.
--
Ian

AT 4 way stops, it's not no-priority. It's as you described. If a car
gets there first, it has the priority. If they all get there about the
same time, the the driver to your right has the right of way. Same rule
applies for boats crossing paths, if a boat is crossing your path from
the right, it has the right of way. Boat and aircraft lights are set
up consistent with that, so one craft sees green, the other red.

On 10/6/2015 10:30 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 10:58:42 AM UTC-4, Ian Jackson wrote:


In the USA, I'm amazed to the no-priority '4-way stop' crossroads. The
rule seems to be that the guy who thinks he got there first assumes he
has priority. That said, when driving over there, driving is normally a
pleasure, and the drivers tend to be somewhat more considerate than here
in the UK and in Continental Europe.
--
Ian

AT 4 way stops, it's not no-priority. It's as you described. If a car
gets there first, it has the priority. If they all get there about the
same time, the the driver to your right has the right of way. Same rule
applies for boats crossing paths, if a boat is crossing your path from
the right, it has the right of way. Boat and aircraft lights are set
up consistent with that, so one craft sees green, the other red.

If they all get there at the same time, how do you determine which is
the "right" one? Everyone has a driver to the right side of them. I
suspect that the driver who has the biggest or most beat up vehicle gets
the right-of-way.

On 2015-10-06, wrote:

They put in some of them not far from my home. I absolutely hate them.
I'll drive a couple miles further or drive thru alleys just to avoid the
damn things. I think they are completely assinine. About 20 families
lost their homes and a dozen businesses were shoved out, so that the
city could rip down all those buildings to build a TRIPLE roundabout. It
used to be a simple stop light, where it took a minute sitting at the
light. Now it takes 5 minutes to manuver around that goddamn thing, and
uses 3 times as much gas. The city spent millions of dollars to build
that moronic thing so they could save a couple hundred dollars of
electricity to power the stop light.

I have not found one person in that city that wanted it before they
built it, and not one person that likes it now. But their idiot
politicians built it anyway!

Yep!

I've driven in CA all my life and have never seen a roundabout
.....until about 10 yrs ago. Whatta nightmare! I saw a 3 lane
roundabout in Boston about 35 yrs ago and it was a complete
clusterf*ck. Now, they are experimenting with them out West and I see
zero advantage.

nb

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 11:01:44 AM UTC-4, Frank wrote:
On 10/6/2015 9:56 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 9:05:25 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 6 Oct 2015 11:45:00 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message ,
writes
On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 22:25:33 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

When I was visiting some friends in Sandy Eggo, they took me down to
Tijuana where they have these traffic circles. It was a fun time to sit
and watch the cars on the merry-go-round. ;-)

You need roundabouts like the Magic Rpundabout in Hemel Hemptsead!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVeAhmvNFIU

The virtue of having several mini-roundabouts around the periphery of a
large roundabout is that it breaks up the traffic, and also slows it
down.

Bearing in mind that in the UK, you have to give way ("yield") to
traffic to your the right (already on a roundabout), this gives those
entering junctions a fairly even chance of joining the traffic flow. The
disadvantage of large roundabouts is that traffic already the roundabout
can travel at a considerable speed, or get bunched up (or both). This
makes it difficult for anyone trying to enter the traffic flow.

We have one on the other side of freeway. another subdivision. When I go
there, i notice people living in the surrounding neighborhood don't even
know how to use it.

They put in some of them not far from my home. I absolutely hate them.
I'll drive a couple miles further or drive thru alleys just to avoid the
damn things. I think they are completely assinine. About 20 families
lost their homes and a dozen businesses were shoved out, so that the
city could rip down all those buildings to build a TRIPLE roundabout. It
used to be a simple stop light, where it took a minute sitting at the
light. Now it takes 5 minutes to manuver around that goddamn thing, and
uses 3 times as much gas. The city spent millions of dollars to build
that moronic thing so they could save a couple hundred dollars of
electricity to power the stop light.

The whole idea of roundabouts is to try to prevent traffic having to
stop. Could it be that many drivers in your benighted country haven't
yet learned how to use them properly? Maybe you don't have the necessary
skills and discipline to know when to keep going (if you can), and when
to give way (if you can't)?

I have not found one person in that city that wanted it before they
built it, and not one person that likes it now. But their idiot
politicians built it anyway!

You literally have to drive about 3 or 4 blocks past the original stop
light, then drive back those 3 or 4 blocks to turn onto that cross road.

One guy who lives there said "they hired all the town's drunks, got them
very drunk, and let them design it while they were intoxicated".

I fully agree!

I have to admit that roundabouts do have their limitations.

If traffic is too heavy, they can clog up, and things are then worse
than having traffic lights. The simplistic fix is to install lights,
giving you the best/worst of both worlds.

Unfortunately, in the UK, local authority traffic planners often seem
pretty dim (I suspect many don't/can't drive). They often don't seem to
realise that traffic lights may not really be necessary on some of the
roundabouts where they have decided to install them. And even if they
are necessary at peak traffic times, they can actually be switched off
when their use is not warranted. OK, there are some part-time lights,
but they are surprisingly rare.

However, in the UK, roundabouts are generally considered to be 'a good
thing'. We pour scorn on those that have so far failed to realise their
obvious advantages. I would suggest you have a quick look at the British
Highway Code, and you'll see how to use them. Of course, as we drive on
the correct side of the road over here, where necessary you'll have to
swap left for right, and vice versa. Start at Section 4 (page 81, para
184).
http://bit.ly/1Oi1T4t






They work fine until traffic overloads them, then it is just a
cluster****

The main excuse I hear in the US that makes any sense at all is they
are a traffic calming device that slows people down. That is not
really a popular idea unless it is in front of your house.

DC is full of them but the typical bumper to bumper traffic forced
them to install lights on them and then you have that "worst of both
worlds". They tunneled under the worst of them.

Yes the rules are the same and everyone understands the car in the
circle has the right of way but when the circle is full because the
road up stream of you is full, there is no getting on the circle. Than
that road backs up and pretty soon you have the classic grid lock
where nobody is moving..

Regarding who has the right-of-way, here in NJ, I thought the rule was
what you stated, that the car in the circle has it. But I recently lost
that debate. Turns out under NJ law there is no standard as to which
car has the ROW, and it's based on what is locally accepted at each
circle based on traffic flow, etc. I know that sounds crazy and IDK
how you could resolve who is at fault, etc, but that's what it is here.


It's the same as in the UK except here in US it is traffic on your left
which is already in the round-about as you enter.

That is what I found confusing about the video posted above. It appears to
me that driver's entering the round-about to go right have the right of way.
Notice the stop blocks for traffic in the "inner circle". Those vehicles
stop and allow traffic from outside the round-about to go in front of them.

However, traffic in the "outer circle" seem to have the right of way over
driver's entering to go left.

I guess it has to be that way otherwise traffic that enters from the "bottom" might get half way in and then be forced to wait, blocking traffic
coming from their right.


I dislike them too, maybe because we have so few of them and are not
used to the routine.

They removed traffic lights at 4 consecutive intersections and installed
roundabouts on a road near my house. I have to either take that road or
cross it to get into my neighborhood. They are a Godsend. In addition to the
roundabouts, they reduced the road from 2 lanes in each direction to 1 and
added curves that force drivers to slow down as they approach the
roundabouts. 45 MPH in between the roundabouts, 15 MPH once inside. Only
"rookies" actually accelerate to 45 because you have to break hard almost
as soon as you reach that speed. People that travel the road consistently
get up to about 30-35 and then take their foot off the gas, coasting to a
nice easy approach.

The road goes to the lake shore where there are restaurants, an amusement park, bars, etc. Sometimes it is fairly busy, sometimes it is basically
empty except for those that live in the neighborhoods that border the road.

The installation of the roundabouts and reconfiguration of the road
eliminated the accident laden drag racing from light to light that used to occur. It also eliminated the need for us that frequent the road to sit at
traffic lights in the late evening or early morning when there isn't another
vehicle in sight.

The noise level is down because of the slower traffic and no accelerations
from dead stops. There are no more morning or evening backups at the lights
during our "rush minutes". (I grew up in NYC, so I know rush hours. What we
have here are *not* rush hours.) Vehicles towing boats can typically cruise
right through on weekends without having to stop and then get back up to
speed, only to have to stop at the next traffic signal.

I am quite happy with them.


Visitor from UK was ****ed that we did not have them. He missed a turn
and there was no round-about to help him out.

On 10/6/2015 10:49 AM, Mr.Emann wrote:
On 10/6/2015 10:30 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 10:58:42 AM UTC-4, Ian Jackson wrote:


In the USA, I'm amazed to the no-priority '4-way stop' crossroads. The
rule seems to be that the guy who thinks he got there first assumes he
has priority. That said, when driving over there, driving is
normally a
pleasure, and the drivers tend to be somewhat more considerate than
here
in the UK and in Continental Europe.
--
Ian

AT 4 way stops, it's not no-priority. It's as you described. If a car
gets there first, it has the priority. If they all get there about the
same time, the the driver to your right has the right of way. Same
rule
applies for boats crossing paths, if a boat is crossing your path from
the right, it has the right of way. Boat and aircraft lights are set
up consistent with that, so one craft sees green, the other red.

If they all get there at the same time, how do you determine which is
the "right" one? Everyone has a driver to the right side of them. I
suspect that the driver who has the biggest or most beat up vehicle
gets the right-of-way.

The joke here in Minnesota: What do you get when you have four drivers
at a four-way? Answer: A picnic. That's 'cause we'll spend an
eternity trying to out-polite the others:

"After you."
"No, after you."
"Oh, no, really. I'm in no hurry. You go first."
"But I'm afraid of looking rude. You first."
"Are you sure? Really, you first."
"Actually, I think that guy gets to go first."

And on and on and on and on...cheesus, I could scream. Just GO already.

Roundabouts are FAR better than four-ways. Luckily, Minnesota is
rapidly expanding their use. They make a hell of a lot more sense and
most of the time, they shorten wait times. Of course, you still have
the idiots who insist on treating them like four-ways, stopping at
every exit while they're within the roundabout.

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 11:49:54 AM UTC-4, Mr.Emann wrote:
On 10/6/2015 10:30 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 10:58:42 AM UTC-4, Ian Jackson wrote:


In the USA, I'm amazed to the no-priority '4-way stop' crossroads. The
rule seems to be that the guy who thinks he got there first assumes he
has priority. That said, when driving over there, driving is normally a
pleasure, and the drivers tend to be somewhat more considerate than here
in the UK and in Continental Europe.
--
Ian

AT 4 way stops, it's not no-priority. It's as you described. If a car
gets there first, it has the priority. If they all get there about the
same time, the the driver to your right has the right of way. Same rule
applies for boats crossing paths, if a boat is crossing your path from
the right, it has the right of way. Boat and aircraft lights are set
up consistent with that, so one craft sees green, the other red.

If they all get there at the same time, how do you determine which is
the "right" one? Everyone has a driver to the right side of them. I
suspect that the driver who has the biggest or most beat up vehicle gets
the right-of-way.

....or the most aggressive driver or maybe just the one who makes the first
move. "I'll go, OK?"

All it takes is for one driver to inch forward to start the action. In most
cases, the others let him go and the normal "driver on the right" pattern
takes over. It's a maximum of 4 cars and a few seconds between first and
last, so it's rarely an issue. If someone wants to be an a-hole, let 'em.

On 2015-10-06, Moe DeLoughan wrote:

The joke here in Minnesota: What do you get when you have four drivers
at a four-way? Answer: A picnic. That's 'cause we'll spend an
eternity trying to out-polite the others:

"After you."
"No, after you."
"Oh, no, really. I'm in no hurry. You go first."
"But I'm afraid of looking rude. You first."
"Are you sure? Really, you first."
"Actually, I think that guy gets to go first."

And on and on and on and on...cheesus, I could scream. Just GO already.

LOL!.....

Reminds me of an episode of Portlandia (S1:E9?). The two ppl come to
a stop and start that very same "you go" silliness. It runs on
endlessly, even past the point where an ancient Yugo automobile slips
through the same intersection while the original two are still
out-politing each other.

You go.
No. You go.
No. You go......

I've experienced the same thing, here, in the rural CO Rockies. As a
CA native, it drives me crazy when a local gets to an intersection
before I do, then starts with those "you go" hand signals. Arrghh!!
Still, it's better than being center-punched by a stop sign/light
runner.


nb

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 11:03:53 AM UTC-5, notbob wrote:
On 2015-10-06, wrote:

They put in some of them not far from my home. I absolutely hate them.
I'll drive a couple miles further or drive thru alleys just to avoid the
damn things. I think they are completely assinine. About 20 families
lost their homes and a dozen businesses were shoved out, so that the
city could rip down all those buildings to build a TRIPLE roundabout. It
used to be a simple stop light, where it took a minute sitting at the
light. Now it takes 5 minutes to manuver around that goddamn thing, and
uses 3 times as much gas. The city spent millions of dollars to build
that moronic thing so they could save a couple hundred dollars of
electricity to power the stop light.

I have not found one person in that city that wanted it before they
built it, and not one person that likes it now. But their idiot
politicians built it anyway!

Yep!

I've driven in CA all my life and have never seen a roundabout
....until about 10 yrs ago. Whatta nightmare! I saw a 3 lane
roundabout in Boston about 35 yrs ago and it was a complete
clusterf*ck. Now, they are experimenting with them out West and I see
zero advantage.

nb

It's the Moonbats infesting government who think The U.S. should be more like Europe just as our goofy President wants. O_o

[8~{} Uncle Round Monster

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 12:12:39 PM UTC-4, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
On 10/6/2015 10:49 AM, Mr.Emann wrote:
On 10/6/2015 10:30 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 10:58:42 AM UTC-4, Ian Jackson wrote:


In the USA, I'm amazed to the no-priority '4-way stop' crossroads. The
rule seems to be that the guy who thinks he got there first assumes he
has priority. That said, when driving over there, driving is
normally a
pleasure, and the drivers tend to be somewhat more considerate than
here
in the UK and in Continental Europe.
--
Ian

AT 4 way stops, it's not no-priority. It's as you described. If a car
gets there first, it has the priority. If they all get there about the
same time, the the driver to your right has the right of way. Same
rule
applies for boats crossing paths, if a boat is crossing your path from
the right, it has the right of way. Boat and aircraft lights are set
up consistent with that, so one craft sees green, the other red.

If they all get there at the same time, how do you determine which is
the "right" one? Everyone has a driver to the right side of them. I
suspect that the driver who has the biggest or most beat up vehicle
gets the right-of-way.

The joke here in Minnesota: What do you get when you have four drivers
at a four-way? Answer: A picnic. That's 'cause we'll spend an
eternity trying to out-polite the others:

"After you."
"No, after you."
"Oh, no, really. I'm in no hurry. You go first."
"But I'm afraid of looking rude. You first."
"Are you sure? Really, you first."
"Actually, I think that guy gets to go first."

And on and on and on and on...cheesus, I could scream. Just GO already.

Roundabouts are FAR better than four-ways. Luckily, Minnesota is
rapidly expanding their use. They make a hell of a lot more sense and
most of the time, they shorten wait times. Of course, you still have
the idiots who insist on treating them like four-ways, stopping at
every exit while they're within the roundabout.

Yeah, we get them on occasion in our roundabouts. Sometimes you can't tell
if they don't understand the ROW process or if they do but they don't trust
the incoming driver. Sometimes it's obvious. You are stopped to give them
the ROW and then they stop and look at you. All you can do is shake your
head and wave them on.

The other situation is when you are in the roundabout and a driver is
approaching too fast. You know that in order for them to give you the ROW
they are going to have to brake hard. The trick there is to keep your speed
up in the roundabout but still leave yourself room to brake and let them
go by if they don't stop.

I get a strong sense of satisfaction when I know that the incoming driver
was trying to bully me by not slowing down and I time it just right so
he has to brake hard. You can tell by their eyes.

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 11:12:39 AM UTC-5, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
On 10/6/2015 10:49 AM, Mr.Emann wrote:
On 10/6/2015 10:30 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 10:58:42 AM UTC-4, Ian Jackson wrote:


In the USA, I'm amazed to the no-priority '4-way stop' crossroads. The
rule seems to be that the guy who thinks he got there first assumes he
has priority. That said, when driving over there, driving is
normally a
pleasure, and the drivers tend to be somewhat more considerate than
here
in the UK and in Continental Europe.
--
Ian

AT 4 way stops, it's not no-priority. It's as you described. If a car
gets there first, it has the priority. If they all get there about the
same time, the the driver to your right has the right of way. Same
rule
applies for boats crossing paths, if a boat is crossing your path from
the right, it has the right of way. Boat and aircraft lights are set
up consistent with that, so one craft sees green, the other red.

If they all get there at the same time, how do you determine which is
the "right" one? Everyone has a driver to the right side of them. I
suspect that the driver who has the biggest or most beat up vehicle
gets the right-of-way.

The joke here in Minnesota: What do you get when you have four drivers
at a four-way? Answer: A picnic. That's 'cause we'll spend an
eternity trying to out-polite the others:

"After you."
"No, after you."
"Oh, no, really. I'm in no hurry. You go first."
"But I'm afraid of looking rude. You first."
"Are you sure? Really, you first."
"Actually, I think that guy gets to go first."

And on and on and on and on...cheesus, I could scream. Just GO already.

Roundabouts are FAR better than four-ways. Luckily, Minnesota is
rapidly expanding their use. They make a hell of a lot more sense and
most of the time, they shorten wait times. Of course, you still have
the idiots who insist on treating them like four-ways, stopping at
every exit while they're within the roundabout.

Here in Alabamastan, we have yield signs that "most" people know how to use.^_^

[8~{} Uncle Driving Monster

On 10/06/2015 12:12 PM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:

In the USA, I'm amazed to the no-priority '4-way stop' crossroads. The
rule seems to be that the guy who thinks he got there first assumes he
has priority. That said, when driving over there, driving is
normally a
pleasure, and the drivers tend to be somewhat more considerate than
here
in the UK and in Continental Europe.


AT 4 way stops, it's not no-priority. It's as you described. If a car
gets there first, it has the priority. If they all get there about the
same time, the the driver to your right has the right of way. Same
rule
applies for boats crossing paths, if a boat is crossing your path from
the right, it has the right of way. Boat and aircraft lights are set
up consistent with that, so one craft sees green, the other red.

If they all get there at the same time, how do you determine which is
the "right" one? Everyone has a driver to the right side of them. I
suspect that the driver who has the biggest or most beat up vehicle
gets the right-of-way.

The joke here in Minnesota: What do you get when you have four drivers
at a four-way? Answer: A picnic. That's 'cause we'll spend an eternity
trying to out-polite the others:

"After you."
"No, after you."
"Oh, no, really. I'm in no hurry. You go first."
"But I'm afraid of looking rude. You first."
"Are you sure? Really, you first."
"Actually, I think that guy gets to go first."

That's how it used to be in the UK 50 years ago.

Perce

On 10/6/2015 9:12 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:

The joke here in Minnesota: What do you get when you have four drivers at a
four-way? Answer: A picnic. That's 'cause we'll spend an eternity trying to
out-polite the others:

"After you."
"No, after you."
"Oh, no, really. I'm in no hurry. You go first."
"But I'm afraid of looking rude. You first."
"Are you sure? Really, you first."
"Actually, I think that guy gets to go first."

And on and on and on and on...cheesus, I could scream. Just GO already.

Ha! Entirely different experience for me (East coast). There, the
trick was to master the art of "not noticing" the other guy! If
you made eye contact, he *knew* you saw him and, as such, immediately
assumed the upper hand! :

Roundabouts are FAR better than four-ways. Luckily, Minnesota is rapidly
expanding their use. They make a hell of a lot more sense and most of the time,
they shorten wait times. Of course, you still have the idiots who insist on
treating them like four-ways, stopping at every exit while they're within the
roundabout.

On 6 Oct 2015 16:03:46 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2015-10-06, wrote:

They put in some of them not far from my home. I absolutely hate them.
I'll drive a couple miles further or drive thru alleys just to avoid the
damn things. I think they are completely assinine. About 20 families
lost their homes and a dozen businesses were shoved out, so that the
city could rip down all those buildings to build a TRIPLE roundabout. It
used to be a simple stop light, where it took a minute sitting at the
light. Now it takes 5 minutes to manuver around that goddamn thing, and
uses 3 times as much gas. The city spent millions of dollars to build
that moronic thing so they could save a couple hundred dollars of
electricity to power the stop light.

I have not found one person in that city that wanted it before they
built it, and not one person that likes it now. But their idiot
politicians built it anyway!

Yep!

I've driven in CA all my life and have never seen a roundabout
....until about 10 yrs ago. Whatta nightmare! I saw a 3 lane
roundabout in Boston about 35 yrs ago and it was a complete
clusterf*ck. Now, they are experimenting with them out West and I see
zero advantage.

nb

If anything, they are a drain on local businesses. Some people go
elsewhere to shop, because they dont want to drive on the roundabout.
And since it's the main intersection in the small city I mentioned, you
cant avoid it, unless you drive several miles longer to avoid it, or use
all the alleys. One gas station/convenience store is right in the middle
of that roundabout. They lost over half their business during the
construcion of the roundabout, and it's never returned to what it was
before.

I found a way to get, and leave the station using all alleys, and that
is what I do. I see a lor of people using the alleys to go to that
station.

I dont know if those taking "Drivers Education" in the schools are
getting educated on roundabout use, but those of us who have driven for
years, have no idea what to do on them. If I confront another car, I
just let the other car go, even if I have to stop. I'm not in that big
of a hurry to get anywhere, nor am I a rude driver. But like I said,
I'll do almost anything to avoid getting onto the roundabout in the
first place.

On Tue, 6 Oct 2015 16:23:55 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message , Frank "frank
writes





Visitor from UK was ****ed that we did not have them. He missed a turn
and there was no round-about to help him out.

I'm not surprised. In rural Pennsylvania, at an otherwise deserted
crossroads, I was obliged to sit waiting for ages until the apparently
un-triggered traffic lights decided to get around to changing to green.

In the UK, it's not unusual to find roundabouts even on small roads.
What was originally a T-junction or a crossroads is often converted
simply by having a (say) 3' diameter white 'blob' (sometimes very
slightly domed) painted in the centre. The approach roads each have the
mini-roundabout sign, and all drivers know that, if necessary, they have
to give way to a vehicle approaching (or cutting across them) from their
right. There's never any "I got here first" debacle, and rarely any need
to install traffic lights.

We were in New Zealand in the spring and it is basically like the UK.
They have roundabouts everywhere and they work fine, until you get to
Auckland in rush hour traffic. Then you have the problem that the
traffic that gets to the circle first is the only ones that get to
play. If that is a steady stream of bumper to bumper cars, nobody else
can get in.
They seem to fix it by putting a light a block away to create a gap
but if there are a lot of people turning on from the cross street, you
still have the same problem.
Most of the people in NZ are pretty calm and courteous but Auckland
looks like it is full of New Yorkers.

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 12:30:47 PM UTC-4, notbob wrote:
On 2015-10-06, Moe DeLoughan wrote:

The joke here in Minnesota: What do you get when you have four drivers
at a four-way? Answer: A picnic. That's 'cause we'll spend an
eternity trying to out-polite the others:

"After you."
"No, after you."
"Oh, no, really. I'm in no hurry. You go first."
"But I'm afraid of looking rude. You first."
"Are you sure? Really, you first."
"Actually, I think that guy gets to go first."

And on and on and on and on...cheesus, I could scream. Just GO already.

LOL!.....

Reminds me of an episode of Portlandia (S1:E9?). The two ppl come to
a stop and start that very same "you go" silliness. It runs on
endlessly, even past the point where an ancient Yugo automobile slips
through the same intersection while the original two are still
out-politing each other.

You go.
No. You go.
No. You go......

I've experienced the same thing, here, in the rural CO Rockies. As a
CA native, it drives me crazy when a local gets to an intersection
before I do, then starts with those "you go" hand signals. Arrghh!!
Still, it's better than being center-punched by a stop sign/light
runner.


nb

I recall a story about a set of very polite twins that weren't born until
they were in their mid-twenties.

Uncle Monster wrote:
On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 11:12:39 AM UTC-5, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
On 10/6/2015 10:49 AM, Mr.Emann wrote:
On 10/6/2015 10:30 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 10:58:42 AM UTC-4, Ian Jackson wrote:


In the USA, I'm amazed to the no-priority '4-way stop' crossroads. The
rule seems to be that the guy who thinks he got there first assumes he
has priority. That said, when driving over there, driving is
normally a
pleasure, and the drivers tend to be somewhat more considerate than
here
in the UK and in Continental Europe.
--
Ian

AT 4 way stops, it's not no-priority. It's as you described. If a car
gets there first, it has the priority. If they all get there about the
same time, the the driver to your right has the right of way. Same
rule
applies for boats crossing paths, if a boat is crossing your path from
the right, it has the right of way. Boat and aircraft lights are set
up consistent with that, so one craft sees green, the other red.

If they all get there at the same time, how do you determine which is
the "right" one? Everyone has a driver to the right side of them. I
suspect that the driver who has the biggest or most beat up vehicle
gets the right-of-way.

The joke here in Minnesota: What do you get when you have four drivers
at a four-way? Answer: A picnic. That's 'cause we'll spend an
eternity trying to out-polite the others:

"After you."
"No, after you."
"Oh, no, really. I'm in no hurry. You go first."
"But I'm afraid of looking rude. You first."
"Are you sure? Really, you first."
"Actually, I think that guy gets to go first."

And on and on and on and on...cheesus, I could scream. Just GO already.

Roundabouts are FAR better than four-ways. Luckily, Minnesota is
rapidly expanding their use. They make a hell of a lot more sense and
most of the time, they shorten wait times. Of course, you still have
the idiots who insist on treating them like four-ways, stopping at
every exit while they're within the roundabout.

Here in Alabamastan, we have yield signs that "most" people know how to use.^_^

[8~{} Uncle Driving Monster

And the people who slows down to merge in the freeway merge lane.

wrote:
On 6 Oct 2015 16:03:46 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2015-10-06, wrote:

They put in some of them not far from my home. I absolutely hate them.
I'll drive a couple miles further or drive thru alleys just to avoid the
damn things. I think they are completely assinine. About 20 families
lost their homes and a dozen businesses were shoved out, so that the
city could rip down all those buildings to build a TRIPLE roundabout. It
used to be a simple stop light, where it took a minute sitting at the
light. Now it takes 5 minutes to manuver around that goddamn thing, and
uses 3 times as much gas. The city spent millions of dollars to build
that moronic thing so they could save a couple hundred dollars of
electricity to power the stop light.

I have not found one person in that city that wanted it before they
built it, and not one person that likes it now. But their idiot
politicians built it anyway!

Yep!

I've driven in CA all my life and have never seen a roundabout
....until about 10 yrs ago. Whatta nightmare! I saw a 3 lane
roundabout in Boston about 35 yrs ago and it was a complete
clusterf*ck. Now, they are experimenting with them out West and I see
zero advantage.

nb

If anything, they are a drain on local businesses. Some people go
elsewhere to shop, because they dont want to drive on the roundabout.
And since it's the main intersection in the small city I mentioned, you
cant avoid it, unless you drive several miles longer to avoid it, or use
all the alleys. One gas station/convenience store is right in the middle
of that roundabout. They lost over half their business during the
construcion of the roundabout, and it's never returned to what it was
before.

I found a way to get, and leave the station using all alleys, and that
is what I do. I see a lor of people using the alleys to go to that
station.

I dont know if those taking "Drivers Education" in the schools are
getting educated on roundabout use, but those of us who have driven for
years, have no idea what to do on them. If I confront another car, I
just let the other car go, even if I have to stop. I'm not in that big
of a hurry to get anywhere, nor am I a rude driver. But like I said,
I'll do almost anything to avoid getting onto the roundabout in the
first place.


Roundboutphobia?, LOL!

Bearing in mind that in the UK, you have to give way ("yield") to
traffic to your the right (already on a roundabout), this gives those
entering junctions a fairly even chance of joining the traffic flow

When I drove in the UK, instead of keeping the left/right thing straight, it is easier to remember....

the guy already in the circle has the right of way.

New Jersey has had traffic circles for years and has been working to remove them. They are kind of insane on 60 mph highways, but not so bad on local roads.

Mark

In message , Moe DeLoughan
writes
On 10/6/2015 10:49 AM, Mr.Emann wrote:
On 10/6/2015 10:30 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 10:58:42 AM UTC-4, Ian Jackson wrote:


In the USA, I'm amazed to the no-priority '4-way stop' crossroads. The
rule seems to be that the guy who thinks he got there first assumes he
has priority. That said, when driving over there, driving is
normally a
pleasure, and the drivers tend to be somewhat more considerate than
here
in the UK and in Continental Europe.
--
Ian

AT 4 way stops, it's not no-priority. It's as you described. If a car
gets there first, it has the priority. If they all get there about the
same time, the the driver to your right has the right of way. Same
rule
applies for boats crossing paths, if a boat is crossing your path from
the right, it has the right of way. Boat and aircraft lights are set
up consistent with that, so one craft sees green, the other red.

If they all get there at the same time, how do you determine which is
the "right" one? Everyone has a driver to the right side of them. I
suspect that the driver who has the biggest or most beat up vehicle
gets the right-of-way.

The joke here in Minnesota: What do you get when you have four drivers
at a four-way? Answer: A picnic. That's 'cause we'll spend an eternity
trying to out-polite the others:

"After you."
"No, after you."
"Oh, no, really. I'm in no hurry. You go first."
"But I'm afraid of looking rude. You first."
"Are you sure? Really, you first."
"Actually, I think that guy gets to go first."

And on and on and on and on...cheesus, I could scream. Just GO already.

Roundabouts are FAR better than four-ways. Luckily, Minnesota is
rapidly expanding their use. They make a hell of a lot more sense and
most of the time, they shorten wait times. Of course, you still have
the idiots who insist on treating them like four-ways, stopping at
every exit while they're within the roundabout.

Actually, the 4-way stop lock-up isn't as silly as at it sounds. It
could equally apply to our UK mini-roundabouts - especially a 4-way one.
The other similarity is that despite driving on the other side of the
road, we also give way to the vehicle on the right.
--
Ian

In message , Percival P. Cassidy
writes
On 10/06/2015 12:12 PM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:

In the USA, I'm amazed to the no-priority '4-way stop' crossroads. The
rule seems to be that the guy who thinks he got there first assumes he
has priority. That said, when driving over there, driving is
normally a
pleasure, and the drivers tend to be somewhat more considerate than
here
in the UK and in Continental Europe.


AT 4 way stops, it's not no-priority. It's as you described. If a car
gets there first, it has the priority. If they all get there about the
same time, the the driver to your right has the right of way. Same
rule
applies for boats crossing paths, if a boat is crossing your path from
the right, it has the right of way. Boat and aircraft lights are set
up consistent with that, so one craft sees green, the other red.

If they all get there at the same time, how do you determine which is
the "right" one? Everyone has a driver to the right side of them. I
suspect that the driver who has the biggest or most beat up vehicle
gets the right-of-way.

The joke here in Minnesota: What do you get when you have four drivers
at a four-way? Answer: A picnic. That's 'cause we'll spend an eternity
trying to out-polite the others:

"After you."
"No, after you."
"Oh, no, really. I'm in no hurry. You go first."
"But I'm afraid of looking rude. You first."
"Are you sure? Really, you first."
"Actually, I think that guy gets to go first."

That's how it used to be in the UK 50 years ago.

Not by law. Most roads used to have some priority signage or road
marking. The introduction of mini-roundabouts meant that, in many cases,
the larger (or busier road) no longer needed to have priority.




--
Ian

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 12:12:39 PM UTC-4, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
On 10/6/2015 10:49 AM, Mr.Emann wrote:
On 10/6/2015 10:30 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 10:58:42 AM UTC-4, Ian Jackson wrote:


In the USA, I'm amazed to the no-priority '4-way stop' crossroads. The
rule seems to be that the guy who thinks he got there first assumes he
has priority. That said, when driving over there, driving is
normally a
pleasure, and the drivers tend to be somewhat more considerate than
here
in the UK and in Continental Europe.
--
Ian

AT 4 way stops, it's not no-priority. It's as you described. If a car
gets there first, it has the priority. If they all get there about the
same time, the the driver to your right has the right of way. Same
rule
applies for boats crossing paths, if a boat is crossing your path from
the right, it has the right of way. Boat and aircraft lights are set
up consistent with that, so one craft sees green, the other red.

If they all get there at the same time, how do you determine which is
the "right" one? Everyone has a driver to the right side of them. I
suspect that the driver who has the biggest or most beat up vehicle
gets the right-of-way.

The joke here in Minnesota: What do you get when you have four drivers
at a four-way? Answer: A picnic. That's 'cause we'll spend an
eternity trying to out-polite the others:

"After you."
"No, after you."
"Oh, no, really. I'm in no hurry. You go first."
"But I'm afraid of looking rude. You first."
"Are you sure? Really, you first."
"Actually, I think that guy gets to go first."

And on and on and on and on...cheesus, I could scream. Just GO already.

Roundabouts are FAR better than four-ways. Luckily, Minnesota is
rapidly expanding their use. They make a hell of a lot more sense and
most of the time, they shorten wait times. Of course, you still have
the idiots who insist on treating them like four-ways, stopping at
every exit while they're within the roundabout.

MythBusters did a test of 4-ways vs. roundabouts. They determined that in a
15 minute period, a 4-way intersection allowed an average of 385 cars
through while a roundabout allowed 460 cars through, an increase of about 20%.

http://www.wimp.com/testroundabout/

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 1:51:06 PM UTC-4, Tony Hwang wrote:

And the people who slows down to merge in the freeway merge lane.

Slowing down isn't the worst of it. Some years ago I had a string of
incidents where I was behind someone (always the same guy) "merging"
onto the freeway. He came to a full stop at the end of the ramp.
I had to have my car's horn replaced twice.

Cindy Hamilton

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 6:45:18 AM UTC-4, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message ,
writes
On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 22:25:33 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

When I was visiting some friends in Sandy Eggo, they took me down to
Tijuana where they have these traffic circles. It was a fun time to sit
and watch the cars on the merry-go-round. ;-)

You need roundabouts like the Magic Rpundabout in Hemel Hemptsead!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVeAhmvNFIU

The virtue of having several mini-roundabouts around the periphery of a
large roundabout is that it breaks up the traffic, and also slows it
down.

Bearing in mind that in the UK, you have to give way ("yield") to
traffic to your the right (already on a roundabout), this gives those
entering junctions a fairly even chance of joining the traffic flow. The
disadvantage of large roundabouts is that traffic already the roundabout
can travel at a considerable speed, or get bunched up (or both). This
makes it difficult for anyone trying to enter the traffic flow.

We have one on the other side of freeway. another subdivision. When I go
there, i notice people living in the surrounding neighborhood don't even
know how to use it.

They put in some of them not far from my home. I absolutely hate them.
I'll drive a couple miles further or drive thru alleys just to avoid the
damn things. I think they are completely assinine. About 20 families
lost their homes and a dozen businesses were shoved out, so that the
city could rip down all those buildings to build a TRIPLE roundabout. It
used to be a simple stop light, where it took a minute sitting at the
light. Now it takes 5 minutes to manuver around that goddamn thing, and
uses 3 times as much gas. The city spent millions of dollars to build
that moronic thing so they could save a couple hundred dollars of
electricity to power the stop light.

The whole idea of roundabouts is to try to prevent traffic having to
stop. Could it be that many drivers in your benighted country haven't
yet learned how to use them properly? Maybe you don't have the necessary
skills and discipline to know when to keep going (if you can), and when
to give way (if you can't)?

I have not found one person in that city that wanted it before they
built it, and not one person that likes it now. But their idiot
politicians built it anyway!

You literally have to drive about 3 or 4 blocks past the original stop
light, then drive back those 3 or 4 blocks to turn onto that cross road.

One guy who lives there said "they hired all the town's drunks, got them
very drunk, and let them design it while they were intoxicated".

I fully agree!

I have to admit that roundabouts do have their limitations.

If traffic is too heavy, they can clog up, and things are then worse
than having traffic lights. The simplistic fix is to install lights,
giving you the best/worst of both worlds.

Unfortunately, in the UK, local authority traffic planners often seem
pretty dim (I suspect many don't/can't drive). They often don't seem to
realise that traffic lights may not really be necessary on some of the
roundabouts where they have decided to install them. And even if they
are necessary at peak traffic times, they can actually be switched off
when their use is not warranted. OK, there are some part-time lights,
but they are surprisingly rare.

However, in the UK, roundabouts are generally considered to be 'a good
thing'. We pour scorn on those that have so far failed to realise their
obvious advantages. I would suggest you have a quick look at the British
Highway Code, and you'll see how to use them. Of course, as we drive on
the correct side of the road over here, where necessary you'll have to
swap left for right, and vice versa. Start at Section 4 (page 81, para
184).
http://bit.ly/1Oi1T4t




Ben Thanh Roundabout, Saigon

Cars, buses, trucks, motor scooters, bicycles and pedestrians.

What could possibly go wrong?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQfR56TZ6F0

In message ,
DerbyDad03 writes




MythBusters did a test of 4-ways vs. roundabouts. They determined that in a
15 minute period, a 4-way intersection allowed an average of 385 cars
through while a roundabout allowed 460 cars through, an increase of about 20%.

http://www.wimp.com/testroundabout/

Absolutely brilliant!

Even though the drivers were allowed a 30 minute warm-up session before
the roundabout test, some might still not have been as comfortable with
them as they might have been. Given a bit more time to get used to them,
the roundabout throughput could well have be even higher. It stands to
reason that they will usually be more efficient then 4-way stops. Aren't
the Americans to know the phrase "We hold these truths to be self
evident"?





--
Ian

On Tue, 6 Oct 2015 11:49:33 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 12:12:39 PM UTC-4, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
On 10/6/2015 10:49 AM, Mr.Emann wrote:
On 10/6/2015 10:30 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 10:58:42 AM UTC-4, Ian Jackson wrote:


In the USA, I'm amazed to the no-priority '4-way stop' crossroads. The
rule seems to be that the guy who thinks he got there first assumes he
has priority. That said, when driving over there, driving is
normally a
pleasure, and the drivers tend to be somewhat more considerate than
here
in the UK and in Continental Europe.
--
Ian

AT 4 way stops, it's not no-priority. It's as you described. If a car
gets there first, it has the priority. If they all get there about the
same time, the the driver to your right has the right of way. Same
rule
applies for boats crossing paths, if a boat is crossing your path from
the right, it has the right of way. Boat and aircraft lights are set
up consistent with that, so one craft sees green, the other red.

If they all get there at the same time, how do you determine which is
the "right" one? Everyone has a driver to the right side of them. I
suspect that the driver who has the biggest or most beat up vehicle
gets the right-of-way.

The joke here in Minnesota: What do you get when you have four drivers
at a four-way? Answer: A picnic. That's 'cause we'll spend an
eternity trying to out-polite the others:

"After you."
"No, after you."
"Oh, no, really. I'm in no hurry. You go first."
"But I'm afraid of looking rude. You first."
"Are you sure? Really, you first."
"Actually, I think that guy gets to go first."

And on and on and on and on...cheesus, I could scream. Just GO already.

Roundabouts are FAR better than four-ways. Luckily, Minnesota is
rapidly expanding their use. They make a hell of a lot more sense and
most of the time, they shorten wait times. Of course, you still have
the idiots who insist on treating them like four-ways, stopping at
every exit while they're within the roundabout.

MythBusters did a test of 4-ways vs. roundabouts. They determined that in a
15 minute period, a 4-way intersection allowed an average of 385 cars
through while a roundabout allowed 460 cars through, an increase of about 20%.

http://www.wimp.com/testroundabout/


I've never seen a four-way stop that gets heavy traffic volume.
All of them around here are in residential areas. And I'm including
my experience in the entire Chicago metro area.
A circle would take up real estate.
I hate the 4 ways in any case when there are other cars there.
Too much out-politing each other or over-caution.
Many times somebody sits at the intersecting street waiting for me to
come to a full stop, when I'm obviously stopping.
I've actually stopped and continued on many times before they could
figure out what's going on.

On 10/6/2015 12:33 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Tue, 6 Oct 2015 11:49:33 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 12:12:39 PM UTC-4, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
On 10/6/2015 10:49 AM, Mr.Emann wrote:
On 10/6/2015 10:30 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 10:58:42 AM UTC-4, Ian Jackson wrote:


In the USA, I'm amazed to the no-priority '4-way stop' crossroads. The
rule seems to be that the guy who thinks he got there first assumes he
has priority. That said, when driving over there, driving is
normally a
pleasure, and the drivers tend to be somewhat more considerate than
here
in the UK and in Continental Europe.
--
Ian

AT 4 way stops, it's not no-priority. It's as you described. If a car
gets there first, it has the priority. If they all get there about the
same time, the the driver to your right has the right of way. Same
rule
applies for boats crossing paths, if a boat is crossing your path from
the right, it has the right of way. Boat and aircraft lights are set
up consistent with that, so one craft sees green, the other red.

If they all get there at the same time, how do you determine which is
the "right" one? Everyone has a driver to the right side of them. I
suspect that the driver who has the biggest or most beat up vehicle
gets the right-of-way.

The joke here in Minnesota: What do you get when you have four drivers
at a four-way? Answer: A picnic. That's 'cause we'll spend an
eternity trying to out-polite the others:

"After you."
"No, after you."
"Oh, no, really. I'm in no hurry. You go first."
"But I'm afraid of looking rude. You first."
"Are you sure? Really, you first."
"Actually, I think that guy gets to go first."

And on and on and on and on...cheesus, I could scream. Just GO already.

Roundabouts are FAR better than four-ways. Luckily, Minnesota is
rapidly expanding their use. They make a hell of a lot more sense and
most of the time, they shorten wait times. Of course, you still have
the idiots who insist on treating them like four-ways, stopping at
every exit while they're within the roundabout.

MythBusters did a test of 4-ways vs. roundabouts. They determined that in a
15 minute period, a 4-way intersection allowed an average of 385 cars
through while a roundabout allowed 460 cars through, an increase of about 20%.

http://www.wimp.com/testroundabout/


I've never seen a four-way stop that gets heavy traffic volume.

Such an intersection would typically have a *light*. A 4-way *stop*
allows drivers to decide when to cross the intersection -- instead of
a "dumb light" (that, even if it has sensors in the road, stands a
50% chance of making you wait, needlessly)

All of them around here are in residential areas. And I'm including
my experience in the entire Chicago metro area.
A circle would take up real estate.
I hate the 4 ways in any case when there are other cars there.
Too much out-politing each other or over-caution.

Here, too often it is a stop for only one direction of traffic.
And, that direction often neglects to stop ("I don't see anyone coming
so I'll just blow through this stop sign")

There are parts of town where the property owners haven't maintained
clear sight lanes so you can't see cross traffic until you are essentially
*in* the intersection -- too late if that cross traffic has opted
not to stop.

Many times somebody sits at the intersecting street waiting for me to
come to a full stop, when I'm obviously stopping.
I've actually stopped and continued on many times before they could
figure out what's going on.

"Hesitation", IME, is a root cause of many accidents. Don't arrogantly
assume you're always right (in the right of way) but, also, don't always
assume you *aren't*... or, that the other guy won't heed his traffic
controls.

Be vigilant and assertive.

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 10:30:19 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 10:58:42 AM UTC-4, Ian Jackson wrote:


In the USA, I'm amazed to the no-priority '4-way stop' crossroads. The
rule seems to be that the guy who thinks he got there first assumes he
has priority. That said, when driving over there, driving is normally a
pleasure, and the drivers tend to be somewhat more considerate than here
in the UK and in Continental Europe.
--
Ian

AT 4 way stops, it's not no-priority. It's as you described. If a car
gets there first, it has the priority. If they all get there about the
same time, the the driver to your right has the right of way.


You explained it perfectly!