I share a well with my neighbor we have 2 dwelling condo. My unit concest
of myself, and her unit has 3 people as of now. We share the following
which are all connected to my electric
Meter... well pump, water conditioner system, electric base board heater
that keeps the pump room warm during the winter all in a room in my
garage. Also a sprinkle system that shared on the front property. It's a
50/50 shared property. She had nationally agreed with hand shake when
she bought the unit next to me back November 2014, I came up with a
charge $ 50.00 which she agreed and was paying this till past May 2015
she stopped paying her monthly obligation To me. I was willing to drop
the price down, she putting up a fight. She is reneging On everything, I
had no choice put to seek legal advice and the issue is still not
resolved. She wanted to use a kill- a- watt gizmo in my garage, I'm
Not her landlord to be checking each day that this gizmo is functioning
Right, and again given her the convenience Every month timeing this and
that off my electric bill. I think not... It's not the long term solution,
especially if I want to sell my unit no one wants to be involved with a
gizmo. Then my neighbors chopped up with a internet chart from Runstone
Electric Association energy from
Alexandra M,N from 2014, We live here in New Jersey not M,N. The chart
says it varies from family to family. She only wants to pay $ 15.00 a
month for her Calculations We're wrong from that chart, also there was
no mention how much a sprinkler system runs on electric, my neighbor has
no idea.... I think the best solution would be a second well... Do you
have any other ideas, well can be costly, she would have to pay half
since it's a shared property..

--

On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 12:44:13 AM UTC-5, NG wrote:
I share a well with my neighbor we have 2 dwelling condo. My unit concest
of myself, and her unit has 3 people as of now. We share the following
which are all connected to my electric
Meter... well pump, water conditioner system, electric base board heater
that keeps the pump room warm during the winter all in a room in my
garage. Also a sprinkle system that shared on the front property. It's a
50/50 shared property. She had nationally agreed with hand shake when
she bought the unit next to me back November 2014, I came up with a
charge $ 50.00 which she agreed and was paying this till past May 2015
she stopped paying her monthly obligation To me. I was willing to drop
the price down, she putting up a fight. She is reneging On everything, I
had no choice put to seek legal advice and the issue is still not
resolved. She wanted to use a kill- a- watt gizmo in my garage, I'm
Not her landlord to be checking each day that this gizmo is functioning
Right, and again given her the convenience Every month timeing this and
that off my electric bill. I think not... It's not the long term solution,
especially if I want to sell my unit no one wants to be involved with a
gizmo. Then my neighbors chopped up with a internet chart from Runstone
Electric Association energy from
Alexandra M,N from 2014, We live here in New Jersey not M,N. The chart
says it varies from family to family. She only wants to pay $ 15.00 a
month for her Calculations We're wrong from that chart, also there was
no mention how much a sprinkler system runs on electric, my neighbor has
no idea.... I think the best solution would be a second well... Do you
have any other ideas, well can be costly, she would have to pay half
since it's a shared property..

--

Simple, disconnect her from the system. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Mean Monster

You should be talking to her, not to us. We
don't even know what you pay for electricity.
$250/month? More? Less? Where I live $50/month
for what you describe seems very high. My last bill
was $47. (Though we don't leave things on when
we're not using them; we don't have AC or
microwave; we have gas for heat and stove.)
$15 sounds about right to me. If I had to guess I'd say
you were gouging them. But I'm not in your condo
association and don't know the details. What if $15
is not enough and it should be $20? Who cares?
$5/month. You're thinking of paying a lawyer to take
it to court over that? It sounds to me like you and
the neighbor need better communication.

On 09/13/2015 12:44 AM, NG wrote:
I share a well with my neighbor we have 2 dwelling condo. My unit concest
of myself, and her unit has 3 people as of now. We share the following
which are all connected to my electric Meter... well pump, water
conditioner system, electric base board heater
that keeps the pump room warm during the winter all in a room in my
garage. Also a sprinkle system that shared on the front property. It's a
50/50 shared property. She had nationally agreed with hand shake when
she bought the unit next to me back November 2014, I came up with a
charge $ 50.00 which she agreed and was paying this till past May 2015

....

What do the actual legal ownership documents of the property state
regarding the well (if anything)?

If there isn't some written contract you're basically on your own as at
present the well is on your meter and you're the one responsible for
that meter.

It is, of course, reasonable that costs for shared utilities be shared,
but that arrangement should have been formalized prior to occupancy and
a way to enforce it made then.

The solution in the present situation case would likely be based on
putting the well on its own meter and also installing water metering to
ratio the use between the two properties if you've not willing to just
use the suggested usage meter and back that from the monthly bill which
would roughly accomplish the same objective. Unless you have some basis
for ratioing the water usage to cause different split you could try
compute some ratio based on occupancy considering how much the
landscaping might be as a fraction of the total that, I presume, would
be 50:50. And, of course, the agreement needs to also cover shared
maintenance costs and repairs, not just monthly operational cost.

You can, of course, go to small claims court to recover past owings;
you'll have to draft a contract going forward and after the sale instead
of as part of that transaction it'll likely be somewhat more difficult.
I've no idea on the actual legal rights; that would, I suspect be
based on locality and you'll probably do need some advice from a
professional there on how to proceed.

The cleanest going forward certainly would be to split the utilities
entirely with separate wells but that'll no doubt be more expensive in
the short term for both and undoubtedly more expensive going forward as
well as each property then will have full maintenance costs of a system
rather than sharing for one.

On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 8:11:00 AM UTC-5, Mayayana wrote:
You should be talking to her, not to us. We
don't even know what you pay for electricity.
$250/month? More? Less? Where I live $50/month
for what you describe seems very high. My last bill
was $47. (Though we don't leave things on when
we're not using them; we don't have AC or
microwave; we have gas for heat and stove.)
$15 sounds about right to me. If I had to guess I'd say
you were gouging them. But I'm not in your condo
association and don't know the details. What if $15
is not enough and it should be $20? Who cares?
$5/month. You're thinking of paying a lawyer to take
it to court over that? It sounds to me like you and
the neighbor need better communication.

I agree (for the most part), but she will be using the well, with multiple people, more than he.

On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 9:11:00 AM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
You should be talking to her, not to us. We
don't even know what you pay for electricity.
$250/month? More? Less?
Where I live $50/month
for what you describe seems very high.

If it's just the operating costs, I agree. But who pays
if the pump needs to be replaced? The well stops producing?
The sprinkler system needs maintenance? If all those are
treated as split costs if and when they occur, then $50
a month for electric to run what's on that list does sound
like a lot of money. I would also hope the electric heater
is just keeping the temp reasonably above freezing.
I wouldn't think the total operating cost for both units
is $50 a month, except maybe in the coldest winter months
when the electric heater is running.

Killawatt thing would solve it, but you'd have to do some
temporary rewiring to get those loads on it and probably have
to do them one at a time. The sprinkler system controller
is negligible, the well pump part of that is what matters.

Interesting that this was in place and nothing in the closing
documents address how it's going to be handled? It's just
a very bad arrangement. Even if it's spelled out, it's still
ripe for trouble, as he's learned.

NG writes:

I share a well with my neighbor we have 2 dwelling condo. My unit concest
of myself, and her unit has 3 people as of now. We share the following
which are all connected to my electric Meter... well pump, water
conditioner system, electric base board heater
that keeps the pump room warm during the winter all in a room in my
garage. Also a sprinkle system that shared on the front property. It's a
50/50 shared property. She had nationally agreed with hand shake when
she bought the unit next to me back November 2014, I came up with a
charge $ 50.00 which she agreed and was paying this till past May 2015
she stopped paying her monthly obligation To me. I was willing to drop
the price down, she putting up a fight. She is reneging On everything, I
had no choice put to seek legal advice and the issue is still not
resolved. She wanted to use a kill- a- watt gizmo in my garage, I'm
Not her landlord to be checking each day that this gizmo is
functioning Right, and again given her the convenience Every month
timeing this and
that off my electric bill. I think not... It's not the long term solution,
especially if I want to sell my unit no one wants to be involved with a
gizmo. Then my neighbors chopped up with a internet chart from Runstone
Electric Association energy from
Alexandra M,N from 2014, We live here in New Jersey not M,N. The chart
says it varies from family to family. She only wants to pay $ 15.00 a
month for her Calculations We're wrong from that chart, also there was
no mention how much a sprinkler system runs on electric, my neighbor has
no idea.... I think the best solution would be a second well... Do you
have any other ideas, well can be costly, she would have to pay half
since it's a shared property..

So, you are overcharging her for her half share of the electricity and
if she wants to measure actual usage you come up with:

"I'm not her landlord".
"checking each day that this gizmo is functioning Right"

No sympathy here.

--
Dan Espen

I share a well with my neighbor we have 2 dwelling condo. My unit concest
of myself, and her unit has 3 people as of now. We share the following
which are all connected to my electric
Meter... well pump, water conditioner system, electric base board heater
that keeps the pump room warm during the winter all in a room in my
garage. Also a sprinkle system that shared on the front property. It's a
50/50 shared property. She had nationally agreed with hand shake when
she bought the unit next to me back November 2014, I came up with a
charge $ 50.00 which she agreed and was paying this till past May 2015
she stopped paying her monthly obligation To me. I was willing to drop
the price down, she putting up a fight. She is reneging On everything, I
had no choice put to seek legal advice and the issue is still not
resolved. She wanted to use a kill- a- watt gizmo in my garage, I'm
Not her landlord to be checking each day that this gizmo is functioning
Right, and again given her the convenience Every month timeing this and
that off my electric bill. I think not... It's not the long term solution,
especially if I want to sell my unit no one wants to be involved with a
gizmo. Then my neighbors chopped up with a internet chart from Runstone
Electric Association energy from
Alexandra M,N from 2014, We live here in New Jersey not M,N. The chart
says it varies from family to family. She only wants to pay $ 15.00 a
month for her Calculations We're wrong from that chart, also there was
no mention how much a sprinkler system runs on electric, my neighbor has
no idea.... I think the best solution would be a second well... Do you
have any other ideas, well can be costly, she would have to pay half
since it's a shared property..

--

Is there no mention of this arrangement in the property deeds?

I think it would be easier and cheaper to put in a separate electric meter for the common elements. Another thought is to have your own private water meters installed. Get a quote from a plumber and maybe they can be installed where everyone can read them.

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

On 09/13/2015 8:49 AM, trader_4 wrote:
....

If it's just the operating costs, I agree. But who pays
if the pump needs to be replaced? The well stops producing?
The sprinkler system needs maintenance? If all those are
treated as split costs if and when they occur, then $50
a month for electric to run what's on that list does sound
like a lot of money. ...

The well here is on separate meter and during summer months can reach
nearly $200 if sprinklers are run significantly and even during winter
$50 isn't unheard of. So on average that might be about right here
altho I've not totaled up for any number of years to see what a
long-term average might be. Of course, there's a pretty sizable yard
area and garden here so it's likely a larger usage and that's total not
just half, but may not be as far out of line as one might
think...particularly if count something for the maintenance going
forward, etc., ...

But it is a nightmare arrangement.

Neighboring place up the road a ways sold off a corner of the ground
around the homestead (farm house and associated outbuildings corral
area, etc., the original dairyman who built the place died and the widow
kept the farm ground but had sold the roughly 20A); the new buyer
cleverly made sure the boundaries included the well; the seller wasn't
wary (and apparently either just did the deal himself or had an equally
bonehead lawyer) and let it go that way.

Within a month of moving in, the new guy cut the line serving the other
property off and that was that...the original owner ended up drilling a
new well.

--

"NG" wrote in message
oups.com...
I share a well with my neighbor we have 2 dwelling condo. My unit concest
of myself, and her unit has 3 people as of now. We share the following
which are all connected to my electric Meter... well pump, water
conditioner system, electric base board heater
that keeps the pump room warm during the winter all in a room in my
garage. Also a sprinkle system that shared on the front property. It's a
50/50 shared property. She had nationally agreed with hand shake when
she bought the unit next to me back November 2014, I came up with a
charge $ 50.00 which she agreed and was paying this till past May 2015
she stopped paying her monthly obligation To me. I was willing to drop
the price down, she putting up a fight. She is reneging On everything, I
had no choice put to seek legal advice and the issue is still not
resolved. She wanted to use a kill- a- watt gizmo in my garage, I'm
Not her landlord to be checking each day that this gizmo is functioning
Right, and again given her the convenience Every month timeing this and
that off my electric bill. I think not... It's not the long term solution,
especially if I want to sell my unit no one wants to be involved with a
gizmo. Then my neighbors chopped up with a internet chart from Runstone
Electric Association energy from
Alexandra M,N from 2014, We live here in New Jersey not M,N. The chart
says it varies from family to family. She only wants to pay $ 15.00 a
month for her Calculations We're wrong from that chart, also there was
no mention how much a sprinkler system runs on electric, my neighbor has
no idea.... I think the best solution would be a second well... Do you
have any other ideas, well can be costly, she would have to pay half
since it's a shared property..


Your first mistake was buying your home without knowing what the deal is.

Your second mistake was agreeing to anything with your neighbor.

Your third mistake was not checking your property records to see what the
deal is, hopefully there is something documented.

Your fifth mistake is not taking a mathematical approach to this.

Your sixth mistake is thinking some sort of measurement to figure out actual
costs.

Your seventh mistake is not considering maintenance costs in addition to
electric costs.

The idea of a separate well is expensive, that is why there is a shared
well.

The idea of separate utility billing for the well is also expensive. In
addition to the cost of an electrician, in my neck of the woods the utility
company gouges you for a new service. REALLY gouges you.

The idea of separate utility billing also does not deal with quantity of
water used or maintenance costs.

You need to do some math and see what is what. That is AFTER you look at
the property records to see what is, hopefully, documented. (this may just
say all costs will be shared, which puts you back to square one, with the
option of turning her off totally ruled out, if it is not already due to a
prescriptive easement theory).

You should consider a reserve account both you and your neighbor pay into
for maintenance costs.

You are right to be aware that this is going to be a problem when you sell
your condo, not just at the present.

Is this part of a larger condo complex? Are there other shared wells or
systems (whether or not you or your neighbor are part of them)?

"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 09/13/2015 8:49 AM, trader_4 wrote:
...

If it's just the operating costs, I agree. But who pays
if the pump needs to be replaced? The well stops producing?
The sprinkler system needs maintenance? If all those are
treated as split costs if and when they occur, then $50
a month for electric to run what's on that list does sound
like a lot of money. ...

The well here is on separate meter and during summer months can reach
nearly $200 if sprinklers are run significantly and even during winter $50
isn't unheard of. So on average that might be about right here altho I've
not totaled up for any number of years to see what a long-term average
might be. Of course, there's a pretty sizable yard area and garden here
so it's likely a larger usage and that's total not just half, but may not
be as far out of line as one might think...particularly if count something
for the maintenance going forward, etc., ...

But it is a nightmare arrangement.

Neighboring place up the road a ways sold off a corner of the ground
around the homestead (farm house and associated outbuildings corral area,
etc., the original dairyman who built the place died and the widow kept
the farm ground but had sold the roughly 20A); the new buyer cleverly made
sure the boundaries included the well; the seller wasn't wary (and
apparently either just did the deal himself or had an equally bonehead
lawyer) and let it go that way.

Within a month of moving in, the new guy cut the line serving the other
property off and that was that...the original owner ended up drilling a
new well.


That could have been the intent of both parties from the outset.

On 9/13/2015 1:44 AM, NG wrote:
I share a well with my neighbor we have 2 dwelling condo. My unit concest
of myself, and her unit has 3 people as of now. We share the following
which are all connected to my electric Meter... well pump, water
conditioner system, electric base board heater
that keeps the pump room warm during the winter all in a room in my
garage. Also a sprinkle system that shared on the front property. It's a
50/50 shared property. She had nationally agreed with hand shake when
she bought the unit next to me back November 2014, I came up with a
charge $ 50.00 which she agreed and was paying this till past May 2015
she stopped paying her monthly obligation To me. I was willing to drop
the price down, she putting up a fight. She is reneging On everything, I
had no choice put to seek legal advice and the issue is still not
resolved. She wanted to use a kill- a- watt gizmo in my garage, I'm
Not her landlord to be checking each day that this gizmo is functioning
Right, and again given her the convenience Every month timeing this and
that off my electric bill. I think not... It's not the long term solution,
especially if I want to sell my unit no one wants to be involved with a
gizmo.

Long term, a separate meter would be the solution. Short term the Kill
a watt is a cheap solution.

You are battling over $600 a year. You can probably involve a lawyer
and quickly spend $6000 or more so better you come up with a solution
you can live with. You can buy a meter that is easily attached and can
be read independent of your home meter so nothing had to be coordinated.
You read it once a month and split the bill. You should also work out
how to pay for the inevitable repairs to the system. Put a few bucks
into a fund every month until you have enough to cover a new pump so you
don't take a big hit at one time.

On 09/13/2015 9:15 AM, taxed and spent wrote:
wrote in message ...
On 09/13/2015 8:49 AM, trader_4 wrote:
...

If it's just the operating costs, I agree. But who pays
if the pump needs to be replaced? The well stops producing?
The sprinkler system needs maintenance? If all those are
treated as split costs if and when they occur, then $50
a month for electric to run what's on that list does sound
like a lot of money. ...

The well here is on separate meter and during summer months can reach
nearly $200 if sprinklers are run significantly and even during winter $50
isn't unheard of. So on average that might be about right here altho I've
not totaled up for any number of years to see what a long-term average
might be. Of course, there's a pretty sizable yard area and garden here
so it's likely a larger usage and that's total not just half, but may not
be as far out of line as one might think...particularly if count something
for the maintenance going forward, etc., ...

But it is a nightmare arrangement.

Neighboring place up the road a ways sold off a corner of the ground
around the homestead (farm house and associated outbuildings corral area,
etc., the original dairyman who built the place died and the widow kept
the farm ground but had sold the roughly 20A); the new buyer cleverly made
sure the boundaries included the well; the seller wasn't wary (and
apparently either just did the deal himself or had an equally bonehead
lawyer) and let it go that way.

Within a month of moving in, the new guy cut the line serving the other
property off and that was that...the original owner ended up drilling a
new well.


That could have been the intent of both parties from the outset.

No, I know very well it wasn't the seller's intent whatsoever or he
would have dug the well prior to coming home from work one afternoon to
discover he had no water...

--

On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 10:05:55 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 09/13/2015 8:49 AM, trader_4 wrote:
...

If it's just the operating costs, I agree. But who pays
if the pump needs to be replaced? The well stops producing?
The sprinkler system needs maintenance? If all those are
treated as split costs if and when they occur, then $50
a month for electric to run what's on that list does sound
like a lot of money. ...

The well here is on separate meter and during summer months can reach
nearly $200 if sprinklers are run significantly and even during winter
$50 isn't unheard of. So on average that might be about right here
altho I've not totaled up for any number of years to see what a
long-term average might be. Of course, there's a pretty sizable yard
area and garden here so it's likely a larger usage and that's total not
just half, but may not be as far out of line as one might
think...particularly if count something for the maintenance going
forward, etc., ...


A 1hp pump runs about 7 amps, ~1700 watts. Using 13 cents/kwh that's
22 cents an hour. Water 5 hours and it's $1.10 Assuming you water
3 times a week, that would be $3.30, or $13 a month. If you watered
10 hours at a time, it's still $26 a month. I don't see how you get
near $200 unless it's a much bigger system. Given that it's a condo
with a shared well, seems the watering would probably be closer to
the $13 to $26 a month. And that's for the whole thing.

The heater could be running more than that, but it's for just a few
months. Also it's probably not too much for the heater, because he
says it's a room in the garage, so I'm thinking it's more like closet
size.



But it is a nightmare arrangement.


That's for sure. It could work OK if you have a reasonable neighbor
and the relationship doesn't go south for some other reasons, etc.
Even then it could lead to disagreement, one wants to water every day,
the other 2x a week, etc.
But for sure if ownership changes on either side, who knows who
the new owner will be. Clearly this special arrangement should be
spelled out, probably in the closing documents for both units.
I would suspect that this shared well was probably added after the condos
were originally built and sold.

On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 9:15:16 AM UTC-5, taxed and spent wrote:

Your first mistake was buying your home without knowing what the deal is.

Your second mistake was agreeing to anything with your neighbor.

Your third mistake was not checking your property records to see what the
deal is, hopefully there is something documented.

Your fifth mistake is not taking a mathematical approach to this.

Your sixth mistake is thinking some sort of measurement to figure out actual
costs.

Your seventh mistake is not considering maintenance costs in addition to
electric costs.

....your 1st mistake...not having a 4th!

Two water meters and one electric meter. Done!

"bob_villa" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 9:15:16 AM UTC-5, taxed and spent wrote:

Your first mistake was buying your home without knowing what the deal is.

Your second mistake was agreeing to anything with your neighbor.

Your third mistake was not checking your property records to see what the
deal is, hopefully there is something documented.

Your fifth mistake is not taking a mathematical approach to this.

Your sixth mistake is thinking some sort of measurement to figure out
actual
costs.

Your seventh mistake is not considering maintenance costs in addition to
electric costs.

...your 1st mistake...not having a 4th!



That is an exercise left to the student.

"Answer Man" wrote in message
...
Two water meters and one electric meter. Done!

it will take YEARS to pay for those with the savings to be had by the
neighbor, cutting $50/month down to whatever.

On 9/13/2015 8:49 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 9:11:00 AM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
You should be talking to her, not to us. We
don't even know what you pay for electricity.
$250/month? More? Less?
Where I live $50/month
for what you describe seems very high.

If it's just the operating costs, I agree. But who pays
if the pump needs to be replaced? The well stops producing?
The sprinkler system needs maintenance? If all those are
treated as split costs if and when they occur, then $50
a month for electric to run what's on that list does sound
like a lot of money. I would also hope the electric heater
is just keeping the temp reasonably above freezing.
I wouldn't think the total operating cost for both units
is $50 a month, except maybe in the coldest winter months
when the electric heater is running.

Killawatt thing would solve it, but you'd have to do some
temporary rewiring to get those loads on it and probably have
to do them one at a time. The sprinkler system controller
is negligible, the well pump part of that is what matters.

Interesting that this was in place and nothing in the closing
documents address how it's going to be handled? It's just
a very bad arrangement. Even if it's spelled out, it's still
ripe for trouble, as he's learned.

Plus 1 - In an arrangement such as this ALL expenses need to be
calculated. Some may be fixed (heat to prevent freezing in that room)
others will be variable, e.g amount of water pumped for the unit with 3+
vs. your unit, etc.

You say you need legal advice and I would agree. Problem is you won't
get it here. Contact an attorney NOW, before you do anything else, and
get his/her advice. Do NOT disconnect the neighbor without checking
first with the attorney.

Expense? Sure but the MOST expensive question you can ask your attorney
is "Did I do the right thing?" Chances are great that the answer is
"No!" and the remedy will cost you far more than the advice going into
this would have cost.

"Unquestionably Confused" wrote in message
...
On 9/13/2015 8:49 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 9:11:00 AM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
You should be talking to her, not to us. We
don't even know what you pay for electricity.
$250/month? More? Less?
Where I live $50/month
for what you describe seems very high.

If it's just the operating costs, I agree. But who pays
if the pump needs to be replaced? The well stops producing?
The sprinkler system needs maintenance? If all those are
treated as split costs if and when they occur, then $50
a month for electric to run what's on that list does sound
like a lot of money. I would also hope the electric heater
is just keeping the temp reasonably above freezing.
I wouldn't think the total operating cost for both units
is $50 a month, except maybe in the coldest winter months
when the electric heater is running.

Killawatt thing would solve it, but you'd have to do some
temporary rewiring to get those loads on it and probably have
to do them one at a time. The sprinkler system controller
is negligible, the well pump part of that is what matters.

Interesting that this was in place and nothing in the closing
documents address how it's going to be handled? It's just
a very bad arrangement. Even if it's spelled out, it's still
ripe for trouble, as he's learned.

Plus 1 - In an arrangement such as this ALL expenses need to be
calculated. Some may be fixed (heat to prevent freezing in that room)
others will be variable, e.g amount of water pumped for the unit with 3+
vs. your unit, etc.

You say you need legal advice and I would agree. Problem is you won't get
it here. Contact an attorney NOW, before you do anything else, and get
his/her advice. Do NOT disconnect the neighbor without checking first
with the attorney.

Expense? Sure but the MOST expensive question you can ask your attorney
is "Did I do the right thing?" Chances are great that the answer is "No!"
and the remedy will cost you far more than the advice going into this
would have cost.



Save some money.

Look at the property documents to see what if anything it says. The most it
will say is the well is shared and expenses will be shared. It won't have a
dollar amount.

Do the proper analysis. Put a kw meter on and keep track for a month. Try
to figure how much each household uses. Do the math. Get with your
neighbor and come to an agreement. Or sue in small claims court, using your
figures.

Note: cost will vary over the year. In winter, less water used, more
heating to prevent freezing.

Maintenance will be a bigger problem, down the road.

Why go to a lawyer before you have done these things?

On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 11:47:07 AM UTC-4, Unquestionably Confused wrote:


Plus 1 - In an arrangement such as this ALL expenses need to be
calculated. Some may be fixed (heat to prevent freezing in that room)
others will be variable, e.g amount of water pumped for the unit with 3+
vs. your unit, etc.

You say you need legal advice and I would agree. Problem is you won't
get it here. Contact an attorney NOW, before you do anything else, and
get his/her advice. Do NOT disconnect the neighbor without checking
first with the attorney.

Expense? Sure but the MOST expensive question you can ask your attorney
is "Did I do the right thing?" Chances are great that the answer is
"No!" and the remedy will cost you far more than the advice going into
this would have cost.

Probably the worst thing here that shows what happens is that
the neighbor just stopped paying altogether. I can see her
saying the $50 is too high, it very likely is, unless that front
lawn is huge and they water it a lot, which doesn't sound too
likely for a condo. In that position, I might say it's only worth
$X and just start paying that. Not paying at all shows she's a
real skunk.

Also, funny that in this whole long description of the problem,
we don't know what the total electric bill even is, which is
very relevant. I'm thinking
there is a reason for that..... Also, we don't know on what,
if anything, the $50 initially agreed to payment was based on.
That says that the total cost is $100 a month, and if it's just
for operating costs, that sounds high to me.

Running a well pump for water for a condo with 3 people in it
shouldn't amount to much. The biggest component would be
watering the lawn, where the pump is running constantly for
a considerable period of time. Even watering a small lawn
can take 2000 gallons.

He also referenced some chart from some utility in MN, might
be interesting to see what the chart actually shows, but
I would suspect he's right that it's probably not relevant.
That kind of stuff varies all over the map.

On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 12:04:50 PM UTC-4, taxed and spent wrote:
"Unquestionably Confused" wrote in message
...
On 9/13/2015 8:49 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 9:11:00 AM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
You should be talking to her, not to us. We
don't even know what you pay for electricity.
$250/month? More? Less?
Where I live $50/month
for what you describe seems very high.

If it's just the operating costs, I agree. But who pays
if the pump needs to be replaced? The well stops producing?
The sprinkler system needs maintenance? If all those are
treated as split costs if and when they occur, then $50
a month for electric to run what's on that list does sound
like a lot of money. I would also hope the electric heater
is just keeping the temp reasonably above freezing.
I wouldn't think the total operating cost for both units
is $50 a month, except maybe in the coldest winter months
when the electric heater is running.

Killawatt thing would solve it, but you'd have to do some
temporary rewiring to get those loads on it and probably have
to do them one at a time. The sprinkler system controller
is negligible, the well pump part of that is what matters.

Interesting that this was in place and nothing in the closing
documents address how it's going to be handled? It's just
a very bad arrangement. Even if it's spelled out, it's still
ripe for trouble, as he's learned.

Plus 1 - In an arrangement such as this ALL expenses need to be
calculated. Some may be fixed (heat to prevent freezing in that room)
others will be variable, e.g amount of water pumped for the unit with 3+
vs. your unit, etc.

You say you need legal advice and I would agree. Problem is you won't get
it here. Contact an attorney NOW, before you do anything else, and get
his/her advice. Do NOT disconnect the neighbor without checking first
with the attorney.

Expense? Sure but the MOST expensive question you can ask your attorney
is "Did I do the right thing?" Chances are great that the answer is "No!"
and the remedy will cost you far more than the advice going into this
would have cost.



Save some money.

Look at the property documents to see what if anything it says. The most it
will say is the well is shared and expenses will be shared. It won't have a
dollar amount.

Do the proper analysis. Put a kw meter on and keep track for a month. Try
to figure how much each household uses. Do the math. Get with your
neighbor and come to an agreement. Or sue in small claims court, using your
figures.

Note: cost will vary over the year. In winter, less water used, more
heating to prevent freezing.

Maintenance will be a bigger problem, down the road.

Why go to a lawyer before you have done these things?

I agree, I'd try to work it out. The neighbor asking for a killawatt
measurement isn't totally unreasonable. I took it like you did, that
it could be used to take some measurements for a few months, not long
term. But even that would require some rewiring to do and since the
thing is in his unit, would the neighbor believe and accept the results?
When it's at the point where she's stopped paying altogether, it's not
good......

I'd be curious on the history of this, how it came to be, etc.

On 9/13/2015 11:42 AM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Answer Man" wrote in message
...
Two water meters and one electric meter. Done!

it will take YEARS to pay for those with the savings to be had by the
neighbor, cutting $50/month down to whatever.



Nah, it is about the same as one visit to the lawyer.
EKM is one outfit that has electric meters under $100.

Watts has a water meter you can get for $60. For an hour or two of time
and less than $250 in material you are set. Now just agree on a rate
and maintenance fund, non-returnable if one party moves away.

On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 12:19:39 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/13/2015 11:42 AM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Answer Man" wrote in message
...
Two water meters and one electric meter. Done!

it will take YEARS to pay for those with the savings to be had by the
neighbor, cutting $50/month down to whatever.



Nah, it is about the same as one visit to the lawyer.
EKM is one outfit that has electric meters under $100.

Watts has a water meter you can get for $60. For an hour or two of time
and less than $250 in material you are set. Now just agree on a rate
and maintenance fund, non-returnable if one party moves away.

He doesn't need a water meter, just to measure the electric used
by the well pump and room heater. He mentioned a Killawatt, but
AFAIK they only do 120V and the well pump is likely 240V so
one like you suggest would work.

"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 12:04:50 PM UTC-4, taxed and spent wrote:
"Unquestionably Confused" wrote in message
...
On 9/13/2015 8:49 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 9:11:00 AM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
You should be talking to her, not to us. We
don't even know what you pay for electricity.
$250/month? More? Less?
Where I live $50/month
for what you describe seems very high.

If it's just the operating costs, I agree. But who pays
if the pump needs to be replaced? The well stops producing?
The sprinkler system needs maintenance? If all those are
treated as split costs if and when they occur, then $50
a month for electric to run what's on that list does sound
like a lot of money. I would also hope the electric heater
is just keeping the temp reasonably above freezing.
I wouldn't think the total operating cost for both units
is $50 a month, except maybe in the coldest winter months
when the electric heater is running.

Killawatt thing would solve it, but you'd have to do some
temporary rewiring to get those loads on it and probably have
to do them one at a time. The sprinkler system controller
is negligible, the well pump part of that is what matters.

Interesting that this was in place and nothing in the closing
documents address how it's going to be handled? It's just
a very bad arrangement. Even if it's spelled out, it's still
ripe for trouble, as he's learned.

Plus 1 - In an arrangement such as this ALL expenses need to be
calculated. Some may be fixed (heat to prevent freezing in that room)
others will be variable, e.g amount of water pumped for the unit with
3+
vs. your unit, etc.

You say you need legal advice and I would agree. Problem is you won't
get
it here. Contact an attorney NOW, before you do anything else, and get
his/her advice. Do NOT disconnect the neighbor without checking first
with the attorney.

Expense? Sure but the MOST expensive question you can ask your
attorney
is "Did I do the right thing?" Chances are great that the answer is
"No!"
and the remedy will cost you far more than the advice going into this
would have cost.



Save some money.

Look at the property documents to see what if anything it says. The most
it
will say is the well is shared and expenses will be shared. It won't
have a
dollar amount.

Do the proper analysis. Put a kw meter on and keep track for a month.
Try
to figure how much each household uses. Do the math. Get with your
neighbor and come to an agreement. Or sue in small claims court, using
your
figures.

Note: cost will vary over the year. In winter, less water used, more
heating to prevent freezing.

Maintenance will be a bigger problem, down the road.

Why go to a lawyer before you have done these things?

I agree, I'd try to work it out. The neighbor asking for a killawatt
measurement isn't totally unreasonable. I took it like you did, that
it could be used to take some measurements for a few months, not long
term. But even that would require some rewiring to do and since the
thing is in his unit, would the neighbor believe and accept the results?
When it's at the point where she's stopped paying altogether, it's not
good......

I'd be curious on the history of this, how it came to be, etc.

He could use hour meters, easier to tap in.

I wonder if his electricity company charged on tiered rates.

Here is the history of this:

I recently bought one of a two unit condo. Near closing, I learned that the
water well and the lawn irrigation was shared with the other condo, and was
under his control and on his utility bill. We verbally agreed I would pay
$50 per month, but I didn't know how that was figured - I just wanted to
close. I knew it would be possible to determine how much electricity was
used and we could do a proper calculation.

Now, this neighbor is having nothing to do with any such calculations. It
is $50 per month, tough beans! Based on advise from others, and my own
common sense, I did some research and rough calculations, and think $15 per
month is the right number. I gave this information to my neighbor, hoping
he would accept it or more likely come up with his own numbers based on
actual electricity usage. But NO. It is still "tough beans, $50" with him.

Since I already paid him for three months ($150) at the fictitious monthly
rate, I figure I have paid for 10 months of actual cost. I will pay him
nothing more for the next seven months, to use up my credit with him, and
then I will begin to pay him $15 per month. Of course, if he comes up with
some actual data and actual math showing a different number, I will be
reasonable.

Be careful who your neighbors are, especially when you are sharing something
with them!

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 9/13/2015 11:42 AM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Answer Man" wrote in message
...
Two water meters and one electric meter. Done!

it will take YEARS to pay for those with the savings to be had by the
neighbor, cutting $50/month down to whatever.



Nah, it is about the same as one visit to the lawyer.
EKM is one outfit that has electric meters under $100.

Watts has a water meter you can get for $60. For an hour or two of time
and less than $250 in material you are set. Now just agree on a rate and
maintenance fund, non-returnable if one party moves away.

you are suggesting submetering. I was replying to the previous posts saying
put this on separate utility company meter.

"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 12:19:39 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/13/2015 11:42 AM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Answer Man" wrote in message
...
Two water meters and one electric meter. Done!

it will take YEARS to pay for those with the savings to be had by the
neighbor, cutting $50/month down to whatever.



Nah, it is about the same as one visit to the lawyer.
EKM is one outfit that has electric meters under $100.

Watts has a water meter you can get for $60. For an hour or two of time
and less than $250 in material you are set. Now just agree on a rate
and maintenance fund, non-returnable if one party moves away.

He doesn't need a water meter, just to measure the electric used
by the well pump and room heater. He mentioned a Killawatt, but
AFAIK they only do 120V and the well pump is likely 240V so
one like you suggest would work.

If one condo uses much more water than the other, but perhaps not worth the
bother.

On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 11:17:23 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 10:05:55 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 09/13/2015 8:49 AM, trader_4 wrote:
...

If it's just the operating costs, I agree. But who pays
if the pump needs to be replaced? The well stops producing?
The sprinkler system needs maintenance? If all those are
treated as split costs if and when they occur, then $50
a month for electric to run what's on that list does sound
like a lot of money. ...

The well here is on separate meter and during summer months can reach
nearly $200 if sprinklers are run significantly and even during winter
$50 isn't unheard of. So on average that might be about right here
altho I've not totaled up for any number of years to see what a
long-term average might be. Of course, there's a pretty sizable yard
area and garden here so it's likely a larger usage and that's total not
just half, but may not be as far out of line as one might
think...particularly if count something for the maintenance going
forward, etc., ...


A 1hp pump runs about 7 amps, ~1700 watts. Using 13 cents/kwh that's
22 cents an hour. Water 5 hours and it's $1.10 Assuming you water
3 times a week, that would be $3.30, or $13 a month. If you watered
10 hours at a time, it's still $26 a month. I don't see how you get
near $200 unless it's a much bigger system. Given that it's a condo
with a shared well, seems the watering would probably be closer to
the $13 to $26 a month. And that's for the whole thing.


Actually, on second thought, I think my numbers are high. A 1hp, 240V
motor pulls about 7 amps, but part of that is reactive current, so
it's less than 1700 watts. If you just did a 100% efficient conversion
from 1 hp to watts, it would be just 750W. The motor isn't 100%
efficient, but it's not a resistive load either, so somewhere in
between, maybe 1000 watts is more reasonable? If so, then using my
previous numbers, it would 13 cents an hour or 65 cents to water the
lawn for 5 hours. Do it three times a week, it's ~ $8 a month.
Ten hours of watering, 3 times a week for a month would be ~$16.
Unless I'm missing something here....

On 9/13/2015 12:25 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 12:19:39 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/13/2015 11:42 AM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Answer Man" wrote in message
...
Two water meters and one electric meter. Done!

it will take YEARS to pay for those with the savings to be had by the
neighbor, cutting $50/month down to whatever.



Nah, it is about the same as one visit to the lawyer.
EKM is one outfit that has electric meters under $100.

Watts has a water meter you can get for $60. For an hour or two of time
and less than $250 in material you are set. Now just agree on a rate
and maintenance fund, non-returnable if one party moves away.

He doesn't need a water meter, just to measure the electric used
by the well pump and room heater. He mentioned a Killawatt, but
AFAIK they only do 120V and the well pump is likely 240V so
one like you suggest would work.


He doesn't need it to find the power use, but with a meter you can
fairly apportion the costs to each user. One may be 80% of the costs
and only paying half.

I work with a guy that is on a well supplying 4 houses. They have a
meter and divide everything equally, including maintenance. Works for
them as it is set up independent of the houses.

On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 12:57:44 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

He doesn't need it to find the power use, but with a meter you can
fairly apportion the costs to each user. One may be 80% of the costs
and only paying half.


Yes, I see your point. I wasn't focusing on the water usage difference
between the two units. It depends on how involved you want to get.
They could start with just measuring the electric, like you suggested.
I'm betting they will find that it's nowhere near $100 a month.
If it's more like $40 a month, then maybe they can just split it
or do $25 versus $15, etc.

I work with a guy that is on a well supplying 4 houses. They have a
meter and divide everything equally, including maintenance. Works for
them as it is set up independent of the houses.

Just splitting it equally would be my inclination too, because
I don't think there is a huge difference and much of it is
the lawn and heater which are equal.

On 09/13/2015 9:33 AM, dpb wrote:
....

Within a month of moving in, the new guy cut the line serving the other
property off and that was that...the original owner ended up drilling a
new well.


That could have been the intent of both parties from the outset.

No, I know very well it wasn't the seller's intent whatsoever or he
would have dug the well prior to coming home from work one afternoon to
discover he had no water...
....

Although it became very clear after the fact it was indeed the intent of
the purcharser all along...

--

On 09/13/2015 11:42 AM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Answer Man" wrote in message
...
Two water meters and one electric meter. Done!

it will take YEARS to pay for those with the savings to be had by the
neighbor, cutting $50/month down to whatever.



It's not about savings. If you are going to charge *me* for electricity
and/or water, you had better accurately meter it.
Guessing ain't good enough for me.

"Answer Man" wrote in message
...
On 09/13/2015 11:42 AM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Answer Man" wrote in message
...
Two water meters and one electric meter. Done!

it will take YEARS to pay for those with the savings to be had by the
neighbor, cutting $50/month down to whatever.



It's not about savings. If you are going to charge *me* for electricity
and/or water, you had better accurately meter it.
Guessing ain't good enough for me.



Yes, but if they are sharing the electricity, they damn well be sharing the
cost of figuring out what the share is. So, if a whole new utility service
is required, the neighbor will be paying at least half of it. That puts
"being reasonable" in a new light.

OP is making up numbers out of his butt. If he develops some real numbers,
the neighbor would be a dope to require a lot of infrastructure to get the
estimate down to a gnat's ass.

replying to Mayayana , NG wrote:
mayayana wrote:

You should be talking to her, not to us. We
don't even know what you pay for electricity.
$250/month? More? Less? Where I live $50/month
for what you describe seems very high. My last bill
was $47. (Though we don't leave things on when
we're not using them; we don't have AC or
microwave; we have gas for heat and stove.)
$15 sounds about right to me. If I had to guess I'd say
you were gouging them. But I'm not in your condo
association and don't know the details. What if $15
is not enough and it should be $20? Who cares?
$5/month. You're thinking of paying a lawyer to take
it to court over that? It sounds to me like you and
the neighbor need better communication.


First, off I came across this site last night, and there was another
person on here that had a similar situation.
So that's when I wrote in. I pay well over $ 250 a month on electric
bills to answer your question. She agreed 0n the $ 50 way before she went
to settlement. And sign away excepting All terms and conditions on this
shared property Then 7 months later she came at me very hostile, I wanted
to work something out with her she turned down the offer, she should of
did all her homework before she signed at settlement.

--

replying to trader_4 , NG wrote:
trader4 wrote:

If it's just the operating costs, I agree. But who pays
if the pump needs to be replaced? The well stops producing?
The sprinkler system needs maintenance? If all those are
treated as split costs if and when they occur, then $50
a month for electric to run what's on that list does sound
like a lot of money. I would also hope the electric heater
is just keeping the temp reasonably above freezing.
I wouldn't think the total operating cost for both units
is $50 a month, except maybe in the coldest winter months
when the electric heater is running.
Killawatt thing would solve it, but you'd have to do some
temporary rewiring to get those loads on it and probably have
to do them one at a time. The sprinkler system controller
is negligible, the well pump part of that is what matters.
Interesting that this was in place and nothing in the closing
documents address how it's going to be handled? It's just
a very bad arrangement. Even if it's spelled out, it's still
ripe for trouble, as he's learned.


Every thing is spell out in our condo agreement by laws, I actually use
to have solar panels that took care of all cost, I didn't have to worry
about asking for money for these shared expenses. I had to get a new roof
and no more solar panels. Anyway the person that sold his unit to her,
told me to come up with a dollar amount to charge her. She totally agreed
on the dollar amount, and went right to settlement And signed away on
this as is property. I have a very large yard in the front and the
sprinkler system runs twice day. Sorry I didn't mention that above.. Yes
it is a very bad set up here..

--

"NG" wrote in message
roups.com...
replying to trader_4 , NG wrote:
trader4 wrote:

If it's just the operating costs, I agree. But who pays if the pump
needs to be replaced? The well stops producing? The sprinkler system
needs maintenance? If all those are treated as split costs if and when
they occur, then $50 a month for electric to run what's on that list does
sound like a lot of money. I would also hope the electric heater is just
keeping the temp reasonably above freezing. I wouldn't think the total
operating cost for both units is $50 a month, except maybe in the coldest
winter months when the electric heater is running. Killawatt thing would
solve it, but you'd have to do some temporary rewiring to get those loads
on it and probably have to do them one at a time. The sprinkler system
controller is negligible, the well pump part of that is what matters.
Interesting that this was in place and nothing in the closing documents
address how it's going to be handled? It's just a very bad arrangement.
Even if it's spelled out, it's still ripe for trouble, as he's learned.


Every thing is spell out in our condo agreement by laws, I actually use
to have solar panels that took care of all cost, I didn't have to worry
about asking for money for these shared expenses. I had to get a new roof
and no more solar panels. Anyway the person that sold his unit to her,
told me to come up with a dollar amount to charge her. She totally agreed
on the dollar amount, and went right to settlement And signed away on
this as is property. I have a very large yard in the front and the
sprinkler system runs twice day. Sorry I didn't mention that above.. Yes
it is a very bad set up here..

so the fact that it was the seller who pulled a number out of his butt is
somehow better than you being the one who pulled the number out of your
butt?

On 9/13/2015 2:44 PM, NG wrote:

I pay well over $ 250 a month on electric
bills to answer your question. She agreed 0n the $ 50 way before she went
to settlement. And sign away excepting All terms and conditions on this
shared property Then 7 months later she came at me very hostile, I wanted
to work something out with her she turned down the offer, she should of
did all her homework before she signed at settlement.


She probably thought it was fair, but someone got her ear and filled her
with the idea you were cheating her. Brother, father, nosy friend is
likely the blame.

Compared to city rates, what you asked for does not seem outlandish. My
town city water and sewer is about $700 a year.

On Sun, 13 Sep 2015 09:40:40 -0700, "taxed and spent"
wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 9/13/2015 11:42 AM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Answer Man" wrote in message
...
Two water meters and one electric meter. Done!

it will take YEARS to pay for those with the savings to be had by the
neighbor, cutting $50/month down to whatever.



Nah, it is about the same as one visit to the lawyer.
EKM is one outfit that has electric meters under $100.

Watts has a water meter you can get for $60. For an hour or two of time
and less than $250 in material you are set. Now just agree on a rate and
maintenance fund, non-returnable if one party moves away.

you are suggesting submetering. I was replying to the previous posts saying
put this on separate utility company meter.

You can buy a power meter for the well-house too - surplus from the
electric utility is one source - not read or charged separately by the
utility. Determine the cost ratio by the usage ratio (water meters) or
by some other agreed-on formula.

On Sun, 13 Sep 2015 14:37:48 -0400, Answer Man
wrote:

On 09/13/2015 11:42 AM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Answer Man" wrote in message
...
Two water meters and one electric meter. Done!

it will take YEARS to pay for those with the savings to be had by the
neighbor, cutting $50/month down to whatever.



It's not about savings. If you are going to charge *me* for electricity
and/or water, you had better accurately meter it.
Guessing ain't good enough for me.

If the neighbour agreed to $50 a month at purchace, and paid $50 a
month for a period of time, and nothing has changed, why start to
dissagree now????

The option ,if there is nothing in the condo agreement, is to install
a second well and split the cost . To be fair, a 50-50 split would
include a new well pump for both wells with the procedes of the sale
of the old pump split evenly.

This would be quite expensive for both parties, but WOULD solve the
problem permanently. The condo agreement would also need to be
ammended.

On Sun, 13 Sep 2015 18:44:01 +0000, NG
wrote:

replying to Mayayana , NG wrote:
mayayana wrote:

You should be talking to her, not to us. We
don't even know what you pay for electricity.
$250/month? More? Less? Where I live $50/month
for what you describe seems very high. My last bill
was $47. (Though we don't leave things on when
we're not using them; we don't have AC or
microwave; we have gas for heat and stove.)
$15 sounds about right to me. If I had to guess I'd say
you were gouging them. But I'm not in your condo
association and don't know the details. What if $15
is not enough and it should be $20? Who cares?
$5/month. You're thinking of paying a lawyer to take
it to court over that? It sounds to me like you and
the neighbor need better communication.


First, off I came across this site last night, and there was another
person on here that had a similar situation.
So that's when I wrote in. I pay well over $ 250 a month on electric
bills to answer your question. She agreed 0n the $ 50 way before she went
to settlement. And sign away excepting All terms and conditions on this
shared property Then 7 months later she came at me very hostile, I wanted
to work something out with her she turned down the offer, she should of
did all her homework before she signed at settlement.
+1, at least.