On 9/13/2015 1:37 PM, Answer Man wrote:
On 09/13/2015 11:42 AM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Answer Man" wrote in message
...
Two water meters and one electric meter. Done!

it will take YEARS to pay for those with the savings to be had by the
neighbor, cutting $50/month down to whatever.



It's not about savings. If you are going to charge *me* for electricity
and/or water, you had better accurately meter it.
Guessing ain't good enough for me.



Here's the deal...

1) We don't know what the total cost to the OP is and, I suspect,
neither does he.

2) Assuming there was no well to share. What would it cost each of
them? A family of four using 100 gallons per person each day will pay
on average $34.29 a month in Phoenix compared to $65.47 for the same
amount in Boston. (pulled off the web, but some will be higher, some lower)

3) If the OP paid for the well, pump, water softener, and baseboard heat
in the pressure tank room or whatever, he's got a LOT of skin in the
game before the first glass of water is drawn in the neighbors condo.

4) There are three people in the neighbor's condo and one in the OP's.
Are you really going to argue that their usage is equal?

5) When you consider the capital improvements just to HAVE the well,
pump, water conditioner, etc. AND the monthly recurring cost for
electricity and salt and then look at what the average city water bill
is, that $50 is not a bad deal.

6) Finally, and where he screwed up, was he should have had the
agreement reduced to writing. Period. They had an agreement. I'm not
saying that it was a good agreement or a bad agreement. It doesn't
appear that it was contingent upon who used what or how much the
electricity costs turned out to be. It was, more or less, "If you will
provide me with water, I will pay you $50/mo.)

7) Now the neighbor says "F**k you! I'm not paying anything"

They could have "agreed" at the outset for the neighbor to pay $200 a
month and that's fine and had it been reduced to a contract the courts
would uphold it and the neighbor would be on the hook for that amount.
You can negotiate anything and you can contract to do anything. Once
you do, you're liable.

replying to trader_4 , NG wrote:
trader4 wrote:

Probably the worst thing here that shows what happens is that
the neighbor just stopped paying altogether. I can see her
saying the $50 is too high, it very likely is, unless that front
lawn is huge and they water it a lot, which doesn't sound too
likely for a condo. In that position, I might say it's only worth
$X and just start paying that. Not paying at all shows she's a
real skunk.
Also, funny that in this whole long description of the problem,
we don't know what the total electric bill even is, which is
very relevant. I'm thinking
there is a reason for that..... Also, we don't know on what,
if anything, the $50 initially agreed to payment was based on.
That says that the total cost is $100 a month, and if it's just
for operating costs, that sounds high to me.
Running a well pump for water for a condo with 3 people in it
shouldn't amount to much. The biggest component would be
watering the lawn, where the pump is running constantly for
a considerable period of time. Even watering a small lawn
can take 2000 gallons.
He also referenced some chart from some utility in MN, might
be interesting to see what the chart actually shows, but
I would suspect he's right that it's probably not relevant.
That kind of stuff varies all over the map.


Ok maybe $50 was a little much but at the time she didn't think so. She
had a lot of time to think about it before she went to settlement, I would
have been more then happy to make adjustments. Then 7 months later she
came off very hostile to me as a neighbor. My electric bill are way over $
250 a month. And we share a very large yard that requires The sprinkler
system to run twice a day or more. My place before I bought it was one
house that got divided in two. I need to she a chart here in jersey not
out west... It's not a easy thing here and we're not on talking terms.
So I had to work with my attorney on this problem..

--

replying to Unquestionably Confused , NG wrote:
puzzled2 wrote:

Plus 1 - In an arrangement such as this ALL expenses need to be
calculated. Some may be fixed (heat to prevent freezing in that room)
others will be variable, e.g amount of water pumped for the unit with 3+
vs. your unit, etc.
You say you need legal advice and I would agree. Problem is you won't
get it here. Contact an attorney NOW, before you do anything else, and
get his/her advice. Do NOT disconnect the neighbor without checking
first with the attorney.
Expense? Sure but the MOST expensive question you can ask your attorney
is "Did I do the right thing?" Chances are great that the answer is
"No!" and the remedy will cost you far more than the advice going into
this would have cost.


Trust me I wasn't looking for legal advice on this website not by no
means. I'm already dealing with a attorney on this situation, it hasn't
been easy, my neighbor came off very hostile from the very start. I do
have a very large yard and water 2 or maybe 3 times a day. She seem to
agree on the charge that was presented to her way before she went to
settlement.

--

On 9/13/2015 11:39 AM, taxed and spent wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 12:04:50 PM UTC-4, taxed and spent wrote:
"Unquestionably Confused" wrote in message
...
On 9/13/2015 8:49 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 9:11:00 AM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
You should be talking to her, not to us. We
don't even know what you pay for electricity.
$250/month? More? Less?
Where I live $50/month
for what you describe seems very high.

If it's just the operating costs, I agree. But who pays
if the pump needs to be replaced? The well stops producing?
The sprinkler system needs maintenance? If all those are
treated as split costs if and when they occur, then $50
a month for electric to run what's on that list does sound
like a lot of money. I would also hope the electric heater
is just keeping the temp reasonably above freezing.
I wouldn't think the total operating cost for both units
is $50 a month, except maybe in the coldest winter months
when the electric heater is running.

Killawatt thing would solve it, but you'd have to do some
temporary rewiring to get those loads on it and probably have
to do them one at a time. The sprinkler system controller
is negligible, the well pump part of that is what matters.

Interesting that this was in place and nothing in the closing
documents address how it's going to be handled? It's just
a very bad arrangement. Even if it's spelled out, it's still
ripe for trouble, as he's learned.

Plus 1 - In an arrangement such as this ALL expenses need to be
calculated. Some may be fixed (heat to prevent freezing in that room)
others will be variable, e.g amount of water pumped for the unit with
3+
vs. your unit, etc.

You say you need legal advice and I would agree. Problem is you won't
get
it here. Contact an attorney NOW, before you do anything else, and get
his/her advice. Do NOT disconnect the neighbor without checking first
with the attorney.

Expense? Sure but the MOST expensive question you can ask your
attorney
is "Did I do the right thing?" Chances are great that the answer is
"No!"
and the remedy will cost you far more than the advice going into this
would have cost.



Save some money.

Look at the property documents to see what if anything it says. The most
it
will say is the well is shared and expenses will be shared. It won't
have a
dollar amount.

Do the proper analysis. Put a kw meter on and keep track for a month.
Try
to figure how much each household uses. Do the math. Get with your
neighbor and come to an agreement. Or sue in small claims court, using
your
figures.

Note: cost will vary over the year. In winter, less water used, more
heating to prevent freezing.

Maintenance will be a bigger problem, down the road.

Why go to a lawyer before you have done these things?

I agree, I'd try to work it out. The neighbor asking for a killawatt
measurement isn't totally unreasonable. I took it like you did, that
it could be used to take some measurements for a few months, not long
term. But even that would require some rewiring to do and since the
thing is in his unit, would the neighbor believe and accept the results?
When it's at the point where she's stopped paying altogether, it's not
good......

I'd be curious on the history of this, how it came to be, etc.

He could use hour meters, easier to tap in.

I wonder if his electricity company charged on tiered rates.

Here is the history of this:

I recently bought one of a two unit condo. Near closing, I learned that the
water well and the lawn irrigation was shared with the other condo, and was
under his control and on his utility bill. We verbally agreed I would pay
$50 per month, but I didn't know how that was figured - I just wanted to
close. I knew it would be possible to determine how much electricity was
used and we could do a proper calculation.

Now, this neighbor is having nothing to do with any such calculations. It
is $50 per month, tough beans! Based on advise from others, and my own
common sense, I did some research and rough calculations, and think $15 per
month is the right number. I gave this information to my neighbor, hoping
he would accept it or more likely come up with his own numbers based on
actual electricity usage. But NO. It is still "tough beans, $50" with him.

Since I already paid him for three months ($150) at the fictitious monthly
rate, I figure I have paid for 10 months of actual cost. I will pay him
nothing more for the next seven months, to use up my credit with him, and
then I will begin to pay him $15 per month. Of course, if he comes up with
some actual data and actual math showing a different number, I will be
reasonable.

Per the original post " I was willing to drop
the price down, she putting up a fight. She is reneging On everything, "

Why do you say that the OP says "Tough Beans?" Even though, under the
circumstances, the court will likely say that he's entitled to just that.

On Sun, 13 Sep 2015 09:39:27 -0700, "taxed and spent"
wrote:


"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 12:04:50 PM UTC-4, taxed and spent wrote:
"Unquestionably Confused" wrote in message
...
On 9/13/2015 8:49 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 9:11:00 AM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
You should be talking to her, not to us. We
don't even know what you pay for electricity.
$250/month? More? Less?
Where I live $50/month
for what you describe seems very high.

If it's just the operating costs, I agree. But who pays
if the pump needs to be replaced? The well stops producing?
The sprinkler system needs maintenance? If all those are
treated as split costs if and when they occur, then $50
a month for electric to run what's on that list does sound
like a lot of money. I would also hope the electric heater
is just keeping the temp reasonably above freezing.
I wouldn't think the total operating cost for both units
is $50 a month, except maybe in the coldest winter months
when the electric heater is running.

Killawatt thing would solve it, but you'd have to do some
temporary rewiring to get those loads on it and probably have
to do them one at a time. The sprinkler system controller
is negligible, the well pump part of that is what matters.

Interesting that this was in place and nothing in the closing
documents address how it's going to be handled? It's just
a very bad arrangement. Even if it's spelled out, it's still
ripe for trouble, as he's learned.

Plus 1 - In an arrangement such as this ALL expenses need to be
calculated. Some may be fixed (heat to prevent freezing in that room)
others will be variable, e.g amount of water pumped for the unit with
3+
vs. your unit, etc.

You say you need legal advice and I would agree. Problem is you won't
get
it here. Contact an attorney NOW, before you do anything else, and get
his/her advice. Do NOT disconnect the neighbor without checking first
with the attorney.

Expense? Sure but the MOST expensive question you can ask your
attorney
is "Did I do the right thing?" Chances are great that the answer is
"No!"
and the remedy will cost you far more than the advice going into this
would have cost.



Save some money.

Look at the property documents to see what if anything it says. The most
it
will say is the well is shared and expenses will be shared. It won't
have a
dollar amount.

Do the proper analysis. Put a kw meter on and keep track for a month.
Try
to figure how much each household uses. Do the math. Get with your
neighbor and come to an agreement. Or sue in small claims court, using
your
figures.

Note: cost will vary over the year. In winter, less water used, more
heating to prevent freezing.

Maintenance will be a bigger problem, down the road.

Why go to a lawyer before you have done these things?

I agree, I'd try to work it out. The neighbor asking for a killawatt
measurement isn't totally unreasonable. I took it like you did, that
it could be used to take some measurements for a few months, not long
term. But even that would require some rewiring to do and since the
thing is in his unit, would the neighbor believe and accept the results?
When it's at the point where she's stopped paying altogether, it's not
good......

I'd be curious on the history of this, how it came to be, etc.

He could use hour meters, easier to tap in.

I wonder if his electricity company charged on tiered rates.

Here is the history of this:

I recently bought one of a two unit condo. Near closing, I learned that the
water well and the lawn irrigation was shared with the other condo, and was
under his control and on his utility bill. We verbally agreed I would pay
$50 per month, but I didn't know how that was figured - I just wanted to
close. I knew it would be possible to determine how much electricity was
used and we could do a proper calculation.

Now, this neighbor is having nothing to do with any such calculations. It
is $50 per month, tough beans! Based on advise from others, and my own
common sense, I did some research and rough calculations, and think $15 per
month is the right number. I gave this information to my neighbor, hoping
he would accept it or more likely come up with his own numbers based on
actual electricity usage. But NO. It is still "tough beans, $50" with him.

Since I already paid him for three months ($150) at the fictitious monthly
rate, I figure I have paid for 10 months of actual cost. I will pay him
nothing more for the next seven months, to use up my credit with him, and
then I will begin to pay him $15 per month. Of course, if he comes up with
some actual data and actual math showing a different number, I will be
reasonable.

Be careful who your neighbors are, especially when you are sharing something
with them!

In the hurry to close youcontracted to pay $50 per month for your
share of the water supply expenses.

The time to do your homework was before closing the deal, not after
rethinking it for 3 months. A deal is a deal. You are getting
unmetered water for a fixed price, from a well and pump system you do
not need to warry about - you do not need to maintain it or repair it
if it fails. Any normal, reasonable water usage is worth $50 per
month.

The other interesting question is what is the arrangement for sewer
services? Are you on a septic system? Is it shared too? Who pays for
the repairs?

Common elements of a condominium corporation, and proper reserves to
pay for their maintenance is the one MAJOR thing that condominium
buyers NEED to check into before purchase. Are there condo fees? What
do they cover? Sounds to me that wherever you are located, the condo
rules are pretty "loosey Goosey".

Condominiums can be a whole lot more headache than HOAs - for sure.

On 09/13/2015 01:44 AM, NG wrote:
I share a well with my neighbor we have 2 dwelling condo. My unit concest
of myself, and her unit has 3 people as of now.

What happens when your neighbor or one of her guests gets sick from the
well water you are effectively selling her?

Are you having the water professionally* tested periodically?
(Professionally does not mean the idiot in the orange vest at HD.)

Are you taking any steps to ensure the water is safe?

Do you have business liability insurance to cover your ass?

"Unquestionably Confused" wrote in message
...
On 9/13/2015 11:39 AM, taxed and spent wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 12:04:50 PM UTC-4, taxed and spent
wrote:
"Unquestionably Confused" wrote in message
...
On 9/13/2015 8:49 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 9:11:00 AM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
You should be talking to her, not to us. We
don't even know what you pay for electricity.
$250/month? More? Less?
Where I live $50/month
for what you describe seems very high.

If it's just the operating costs, I agree. But who pays
if the pump needs to be replaced? The well stops producing?
The sprinkler system needs maintenance? If all those are
treated as split costs if and when they occur, then $50
a month for electric to run what's on that list does sound
like a lot of money. I would also hope the electric heater
is just keeping the temp reasonably above freezing.
I wouldn't think the total operating cost for both units
is $50 a month, except maybe in the coldest winter months
when the electric heater is running.

Killawatt thing would solve it, but you'd have to do some
temporary rewiring to get those loads on it and probably have
to do them one at a time. The sprinkler system controller
is negligible, the well pump part of that is what matters.

Interesting that this was in place and nothing in the closing
documents address how it's going to be handled? It's just
a very bad arrangement. Even if it's spelled out, it's still
ripe for trouble, as he's learned.

Plus 1 - In an arrangement such as this ALL expenses need to be
calculated. Some may be fixed (heat to prevent freezing in that room)
others will be variable, e.g amount of water pumped for the unit with
3+
vs. your unit, etc.

You say you need legal advice and I would agree. Problem is you won't
get
it here. Contact an attorney NOW, before you do anything else, and
get
his/her advice. Do NOT disconnect the neighbor without checking first
with the attorney.

Expense? Sure but the MOST expensive question you can ask your
attorney
is "Did I do the right thing?" Chances are great that the answer is
"No!"
and the remedy will cost you far more than the advice going into this
would have cost.



Save some money.

Look at the property documents to see what if anything it says. The
most
it
will say is the well is shared and expenses will be shared. It won't
have a
dollar amount.

Do the proper analysis. Put a kw meter on and keep track for a month.
Try
to figure how much each household uses. Do the math. Get with your
neighbor and come to an agreement. Or sue in small claims court, using
your
figures.

Note: cost will vary over the year. In winter, less water used, more
heating to prevent freezing.

Maintenance will be a bigger problem, down the road.

Why go to a lawyer before you have done these things?

I agree, I'd try to work it out. The neighbor asking for a killawatt
measurement isn't totally unreasonable. I took it like you did, that
it could be used to take some measurements for a few months, not long
term. But even that would require some rewiring to do and since the
thing is in his unit, would the neighbor believe and accept the results?
When it's at the point where she's stopped paying altogether, it's not
good......

I'd be curious on the history of this, how it came to be, etc.

He could use hour meters, easier to tap in.

I wonder if his electricity company charged on tiered rates.

Here is the history of this:

I recently bought one of a two unit condo. Near closing, I learned that
the
water well and the lawn irrigation was shared with the other condo, and
was
under his control and on his utility bill. We verbally agreed I would
pay
$50 per month, but I didn't know how that was figured - I just wanted to
close. I knew it would be possible to determine how much electricity was
used and we could do a proper calculation.

Now, this neighbor is having nothing to do with any such calculations.
It
is $50 per month, tough beans! Based on advise from others, and my own
common sense, I did some research and rough calculations, and think $15
per
month is the right number. I gave this information to my neighbor,
hoping
he would accept it or more likely come up with his own numbers based on
actual electricity usage. But NO. It is still "tough beans, $50" with
him.

Since I already paid him for three months ($150) at the fictitious
monthly
rate, I figure I have paid for 10 months of actual cost. I will pay him
nothing more for the next seven months, to use up my credit with him, and
then I will begin to pay him $15 per month. Of course, if he comes up
with
some actual data and actual math showing a different number, I will be
reasonable.

Per the original post " I was willing to drop
the price down, she putting up a fight. She is reneging On everything, "

because the OP is not necesarily to be believed. He keeps adding stuff.
And what is this "Everything" she is reneging on? There is somethign else?
Hmm.


Why do you say that the OP says "Tough Beans?" Even though, under the
circumstances, the court will likely say that he's entitled to just that.

no, the court is going to look long term. $50 will be too little some day.
The court will say what the documents should have - sharing actual cost.

"Juan Abogado" wrote in message
...
On 09/13/2015 01:44 AM, NG wrote:
I share a well with my neighbor we have 2 dwelling condo. My unit
concest
of myself, and her unit has 3 people as of now.

What happens when your neighbor or one of her guests gets sick from the
well water you are effectively selling her?

Are you having the water professionally* tested periodically?
(Professionally does not mean the idiot in the orange vest at HD.)

Are you taking any steps to ensure the water is safe?

Do you have business liability insurance to cover your ass?

excellent points.

"Juan Abogado" wrote in message
...
On 09/13/2015 01:44 AM, NG wrote:
I share a well with my neighbor we have 2 dwelling condo. My unit
concest
of myself, and her unit has 3 people as of now.

What happens when your neighbor or one of her guests gets sick from the
well water you are effectively selling her?

Are you having the water professionally* tested periodically?
(Professionally does not mean the idiot in the orange vest at HD.)

Are you taking any steps to ensure the water is safe?

Do you have business liability insurance to cover your ass?

What happens when there is a system problem at 2 in the morning?

Or when you are off on that two week cruise you are finally taking?

Man oh man.

On 9/13/2015 2:52 PM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Unquestionably Confused" wrote in message
...
[snip]

$50 per month, but I didn't know how that was figured - I just wanted to
close. I knew it would be possible to determine how much electricity was
used and we could do a proper calculation.

Now, this neighbor is having nothing to do with any such calculations.
It
is $50 per month, tough beans! Based on advise from others, and my own
common sense, I did some research and rough calculations, and think $15
per
month is the right number. I gave this information to my neighbor,
hoping
he would accept it or more likely come up with his own numbers based on
actual electricity usage. But NO. It is still "tough beans, $50" with
him.

Since I already paid him for three months ($150) at the fictitious
monthly
rate, I figure I have paid for 10 months of actual cost. I will pay him
nothing more for the next seven months, to use up my credit with him, and
then I will begin to pay him $15 per month. Of course, if he comes up
with
some actual data and actual math showing a different number, I will be
reasonable.

Per the original post " I was willing to drop
the price down, she putting up a fight. She is reneging On everything, "

because the OP is not necesarily to be believed. He keeps adding stuff.
And what is this "Everything" she is reneging on? There is somethign else?
Hmm.


Why do you say that the OP says "Tough Beans?" Even though, under the
circumstances, the court will likely say that he's entitled to just that.

no, the court is going to look long term. $50 will be too little some day.
The court will say what the documents should have - sharing actual cost.

No, the court will look at that which is within the four corners of the
contract. Unlike most liberals the court will only decide if the
contract is enforceable, not decide to ensure that one party or the
other benefits in some way other than originally intended.

You've heard it said by others here that on the face of it - considering
the OP's stake in the game, as it were, and water rates they experience,
that $50/mo for an unmetered supply of water is not unreasonable.

I get it that the neighbor no longer wishes to pay $50, but on the face
of it (and I'm not reading into this as you are by calling the OP
unbelievable), she hasn't made any counter offer. Given what I've said
and what I'm sure than any attorney looking at the same facts (anyone
raise their hand?g), if he wanted to be a gigantic pr*ck, he could
tell her to pound sand even if she offered him $49.50/mo.

SHE agreed to a contract price and now she doesn't want to pay it. What
part of a contract do you not understand. There has been no mention of
fraud or an illegal transaction which, as I see it, would be the only
thing capable of voiding the contract.

Are you so dense as to believe that if you came over to my house in
response to a Craigslist post for a shiny, low mileage 2012 Corvette I
was selling for $55,000 and purchased it, you could demand your money
back or stop paying for it four months later because a) you no longer
like climbing in and out of it, or b) you grew tired of the wind in your
hair? Mind you, the car is pristine, has low miles and is in perfect
mechanical condition.

If so, what alternate universe do you live in?

On 9/13/2015 3:01 PM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Juan Abogado" wrote in message
...
On 09/13/2015 01:44 AM, NG wrote:
I share a well with my neighbor we have 2 dwelling condo. My unit
concest
of myself, and her unit has 3 people as of now.

What happens when your neighbor or one of her guests gets sick from the
well water you are effectively selling her?

Are you having the water professionally* tested periodically?
(Professionally does not mean the idiot in the orange vest at HD.)

Are you taking any steps to ensure the water is safe?

Do you have business liability insurance to cover your ass?

What happens when there is a system problem at 2 in the morning?

Or when you are off on that two week cruise you are finally taking?

Man oh man.


Both are excellent points and go right back to what I opined earlier.
The time for an attorney is BEFORE you act - and that goes to both the
OP and the neighbor. Now that you have both pointed out other areas of
liability we haven't even discussed, is $50 a month still a bad deal?

On 9/13/2015 4:41 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:



no, the court is going to look long term. $50 will be too little some
day.
The court will say what the documents should have - sharing actual cost.

No, the court will look at that which is within the four corners of the
contract. Unlike most liberals the court will only decide if the
contract is enforceable, not decide to ensure that one party or the
other benefits in some way other than originally intended.

You've heard it said by others here that on the face of it - considering
the OP's stake in the game, as it were, and water rates they experience,
that $50/mo for an unmetered supply of water is not unreasonable.

I get it that the neighbor no longer wishes to pay $50, but on the face
of it (and I'm not reading into this as you are by calling the OP
unbelievable), she hasn't made any counter offer. Given what I've said
and what I'm sure than any attorney looking at the same facts (anyone
raise their hand?g), if he wanted to be a gigantic pr*ck, he could
tell her to pound sand even if she offered him $49.50/mo.

SHE agreed to a contract price and now she doesn't want to pay it. What
part of a contract do you not understand. There has been no mention of
fraud or an illegal transaction which, as I see it, would be the only
thing capable of voiding the contract.


Nothing in writing though. Judge Judy would toss it out.

In the contract there should be an agreed upon maintenance or breakdown
system to get it up and running if one owner is away. That would
prevent a future problem. Something like: We both agree to call Bob's
Pump Service and pay his bill.

"Unquestionably Confused" wrote in message
...
On 9/13/2015 2:52 PM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Unquestionably Confused" wrote in message
...
[snip]

$50 per month, but I didn't know how that was figured - I just wanted
to
close. I knew it would be possible to determine how much electricity
was
used and we could do a proper calculation.

Now, this neighbor is having nothing to do with any such calculations.
It
is $50 per month, tough beans! Based on advise from others, and my own
common sense, I did some research and rough calculations, and think $15
per
month is the right number. I gave this information to my neighbor,
hoping
he would accept it or more likely come up with his own numbers based on
actual electricity usage. But NO. It is still "tough beans, $50" with
him.

Since I already paid him for three months ($150) at the fictitious
monthly
rate, I figure I have paid for 10 months of actual cost. I will pay
him
nothing more for the next seven months, to use up my credit with him,
and
then I will begin to pay him $15 per month. Of course, if he comes up
with
some actual data and actual math showing a different number, I will be
reasonable.

Per the original post " I was willing to drop
the price down, she putting up a fight. She is reneging On everything,
"

because the OP is not necesarily to be believed. He keeps adding stuff.
And what is this "Everything" she is reneging on? There is somethign
else?
Hmm.


Why do you say that the OP says "Tough Beans?" Even though, under the
circumstances, the court will likely say that he's entitled to just
that.

no, the court is going to look long term. $50 will be too little some
day.
The court will say what the documents should have - sharing actual cost.

No, the court will look at that which is within the four corners of the
contract. Unlike most liberals the court will only decide if the contract
is enforceable, not decide to ensure that one party or the other benefits
in some way other than originally intended.

You've heard it said by others here that on the face of it - considering
the OP's stake in the game, as it were, and water rates they experience,
that $50/mo for an unmetered supply of water is not unreasonable.

I get it that the neighbor no longer wishes to pay $50, but on the face of
it (and I'm not reading into this as you are by calling the OP
unbelievable), she hasn't made any counter offer. Given what I've said
and what I'm sure than any attorney looking at the same facts (anyone
raise their hand?g), if he wanted to be a gigantic pr*ck, he could tell
her to pound sand even if she offered him $49.50/mo.

SHE agreed to a contract price and now she doesn't want to pay it. What
part of a contract do you not understand. There has been no mention of
fraud or an illegal transaction which, as I see it, would be the only
thing capable of voiding the contract.

Are you so dense as to believe that if you came over to my house in
response to a Craigslist post for a shiny, low mileage 2012 Corvette I was
selling for $55,000 and purchased it, you could demand your money back or
stop paying for it four months later because a) you no longer like
climbing in and out of it, or b) you grew tired of the wind in your hair?
Mind you, the car is pristine, has low miles and is in perfect mechanical
condition.

If so, what alternate universe do you live in?


I live in the not so alternative universe where there is not only Contract
Law, but Real Property Law, and things like easements, including
prescriptive easements. And where judges are involved not just with
remedies at law but with remedies in equity.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 9/13/2015 4:41 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:



no, the court is going to look long term. $50 will be too little some
day.
The court will say what the documents should have - sharing actual cost.

No, the court will look at that which is within the four corners of the
contract. Unlike most liberals the court will only decide if the
contract is enforceable, not decide to ensure that one party or the
other benefits in some way other than originally intended.

You've heard it said by others here that on the face of it - considering
the OP's stake in the game, as it were, and water rates they experience,
that $50/mo for an unmetered supply of water is not unreasonable.

I get it that the neighbor no longer wishes to pay $50, but on the face
of it (and I'm not reading into this as you are by calling the OP
unbelievable), she hasn't made any counter offer. Given what I've said
and what I'm sure than any attorney looking at the same facts (anyone
raise their hand?g), if he wanted to be a gigantic pr*ck, he could
tell her to pound sand even if she offered him $49.50/mo.

SHE agreed to a contract price and now she doesn't want to pay it. What
part of a contract do you not understand. There has been no mention of
fraud or an illegal transaction which, as I see it, would be the only
thing capable of voiding the contract.


Nothing in writing though. Judge Judy would toss it out.

Judge Judy would get a lot more facts out on the table. And probably call
them both liars!

On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 4:41:51 PM UTC-4, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 9/13/2015 2:52 PM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Unquestionably Confused" wrote in message
...
[snip]

$50 per month, but I didn't know how that was figured - I just wanted to
close. I knew it would be possible to determine how much electricity was
used and we could do a proper calculation.

Now, this neighbor is having nothing to do with any such calculations.
It
is $50 per month, tough beans! Based on advise from others, and my own
common sense, I did some research and rough calculations, and think $15
per
month is the right number. I gave this information to my neighbor,
hoping
he would accept it or more likely come up with his own numbers based on
actual electricity usage. But NO. It is still "tough beans, $50" with
him.

Since I already paid him for three months ($150) at the fictitious
monthly
rate, I figure I have paid for 10 months of actual cost. I will pay him
nothing more for the next seven months, to use up my credit with him, and
then I will begin to pay him $15 per month. Of course, if he comes up
with
some actual data and actual math showing a different number, I will be
reasonable.

Per the original post " I was willing to drop
the price down, she putting up a fight. She is reneging On everything, "

because the OP is not necesarily to be believed. He keeps adding stuff.
And what is this "Everything" she is reneging on? There is somethign else?
Hmm.


Why do you say that the OP says "Tough Beans?" Even though, under the
circumstances, the court will likely say that he's entitled to just that.

no, the court is going to look long term. $50 will be too little some day.
The court will say what the documents should have - sharing actual cost.

No, the court will look at that which is within the four corners of the
contract. Unlike most liberals the court will only decide if the
contract is enforceable, not decide to ensure that one party or the
other benefits in some way other than originally intended.

You've heard it said by others here that on the face of it - considering
the OP's stake in the game, as it were, and water rates they experience,
that $50/mo for an unmetered supply of water is not unreasonable.

I get it that the neighbor no longer wishes to pay $50, but on the face
of it (and I'm not reading into this as you are by calling the OP
unbelievable), she hasn't made any counter offer. Given what I've said
and what I'm sure than any attorney looking at the same facts (anyone
raise their hand?g), if he wanted to be a gigantic pr*ck, he could
tell her to pound sand even if she offered him $49.50/mo.

SHE agreed to a contract price and now she doesn't want to pay it. What
part of a contract do you not understand. There has been no mention of
fraud or an illegal transaction which, as I see it, would be the only
thing capable of voiding the contract.

Are you so dense as to believe that if you came over to my house in
response to a Craigslist post for a shiny, low mileage 2012 Corvette I
was selling for $55,000 and purchased it, you could demand your money
back or stop paying for it four months later because a) you no longer
like climbing in and out of it, or b) you grew tired of the wind in your
hair? Mind you, the car is pristine, has low miles and is in perfect
mechanical condition.

If so, what alternate universe do you live in?

I'd say the price is about the only thing we know about the contract,
which was almost certainly a verbal one. I doubt she agreed to pay
$50 in perpetuity. More likely they discussed sharing the cost, he
said something like "How about $50 a month? And she said OK." I'm
not sure that means either party is bound to that price forever. Seems
more likely to me that a court would interpret that as $50 was the
price as long as they were both OK with it and wanted the arrangement
to continue.

Your CL one time car purchase isn't a fair analogy. A better example
would be someone shows up at your door and says I can supply you with
a 10 gallons of bottled water every week for $10. You say, OK.
Does that mean you're locked into buying 10 gallons of water from
him at $10 forever?

On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 3:45:40 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Sep 2015 09:39:27 -0700, "taxed and spent"
wrote:


"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 12:04:50 PM UTC-4, taxed and spent wrote:
"Unquestionably Confused" wrote in message
...
On 9/13/2015 8:49 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 9:11:00 AM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
You should be talking to her, not to us. We
don't even know what you pay for electricity.
$250/month? More? Less?
Where I live $50/month
for what you describe seems very high.

If it's just the operating costs, I agree. But who pays
if the pump needs to be replaced? The well stops producing?
The sprinkler system needs maintenance? If all those are
treated as split costs if and when they occur, then $50
a month for electric to run what's on that list does sound
like a lot of money. I would also hope the electric heater
is just keeping the temp reasonably above freezing.
I wouldn't think the total operating cost for both units
is $50 a month, except maybe in the coldest winter months
when the electric heater is running.

Killawatt thing would solve it, but you'd have to do some
temporary rewiring to get those loads on it and probably have
to do them one at a time. The sprinkler system controller
is negligible, the well pump part of that is what matters.

Interesting that this was in place and nothing in the closing
documents address how it's going to be handled? It's just
a very bad arrangement. Even if it's spelled out, it's still
ripe for trouble, as he's learned.

Plus 1 - In an arrangement such as this ALL expenses need to be
calculated. Some may be fixed (heat to prevent freezing in that room)
others will be variable, e.g amount of water pumped for the unit with
3+
vs. your unit, etc.

You say you need legal advice and I would agree. Problem is you won't
get
it here. Contact an attorney NOW, before you do anything else, and get
his/her advice. Do NOT disconnect the neighbor without checking first
with the attorney.

Expense? Sure but the MOST expensive question you can ask your
attorney
is "Did I do the right thing?" Chances are great that the answer is
"No!"
and the remedy will cost you far more than the advice going into this
would have cost.



Save some money.

Look at the property documents to see what if anything it says. The most
it
will say is the well is shared and expenses will be shared. It won't
have a
dollar amount.

Do the proper analysis. Put a kw meter on and keep track for a month.
Try
to figure how much each household uses. Do the math. Get with your
neighbor and come to an agreement. Or sue in small claims court, using
your
figures.

Note: cost will vary over the year. In winter, less water used, more
heating to prevent freezing.

Maintenance will be a bigger problem, down the road.

Why go to a lawyer before you have done these things?

I agree, I'd try to work it out. The neighbor asking for a killawatt
measurement isn't totally unreasonable. I took it like you did, that
it could be used to take some measurements for a few months, not long
term. But even that would require some rewiring to do and since the
thing is in his unit, would the neighbor believe and accept the results?
When it's at the point where she's stopped paying altogether, it's not
good......

I'd be curious on the history of this, how it came to be, etc.

He could use hour meters, easier to tap in.

I wonder if his electricity company charged on tiered rates.

Here is the history of this:

I recently bought one of a two unit condo. Near closing, I learned that the
water well and the lawn irrigation was shared with the other condo, and was
under his control and on his utility bill. We verbally agreed I would pay
$50 per month, but I didn't know how that was figured - I just wanted to
close. I knew it would be possible to determine how much electricity was
used and we could do a proper calculation.

Now, this neighbor is having nothing to do with any such calculations. It
is $50 per month, tough beans! Based on advise from others, and my own
common sense, I did some research and rough calculations, and think $15 per
month is the right number. I gave this information to my neighbor, hoping
he would accept it or more likely come up with his own numbers based on
actual electricity usage. But NO. It is still "tough beans, $50" with him.

Since I already paid him for three months ($150) at the fictitious monthly
rate, I figure I have paid for 10 months of actual cost. I will pay him
nothing more for the next seven months, to use up my credit with him, and
then I will begin to pay him $15 per month. Of course, if he comes up with
some actual data and actual math showing a different number, I will be
reasonable.

Be careful who your neighbors are, especially when you are sharing something
with them!

In the hurry to close youcontracted to pay $50 per month for your
share of the water supply expenses.


Once again Clare is lost in space. The OP didn't contract to pay,
the OP contracted to receive $50 per month for the shared water
service.




The time to do your homework was before closing the deal, not after
rethinking it for 3 months. A deal is a deal. You are getting
unmetered water for a fixed price, from a well and pump system you do
not need to warry about - you do not need to maintain it or repair it
if it fails. Any normal, reasonable water usage is worth $50 per
month.


We don't know what was agreed to regarding who pays for repairs, a new
well, etc. Could be the OP is solely responsible, could be they
agreed to split that too.

On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 3:44:05 PM UTC-4, NG wrote:
replying to trader_4 , NG wrote:
trader4 wrote:

Probably the worst thing here that shows what happens is that
the neighbor just stopped paying altogether. I can see her
saying the $50 is too high, it very likely is, unless that front
lawn is huge and they water it a lot, which doesn't sound too
likely for a condo. In that position, I might say it's only worth
$X and just start paying that. Not paying at all shows she's a
real skunk.
Also, funny that in this whole long description of the problem,
we don't know what the total electric bill even is, which is
very relevant. I'm thinking
there is a reason for that..... Also, we don't know on what,
if anything, the $50 initially agreed to payment was based on.
That says that the total cost is $100 a month, and if it's just
for operating costs, that sounds high to me.
Running a well pump for water for a condo with 3 people in it
shouldn't amount to much. The biggest component would be
watering the lawn, where the pump is running constantly for
a considerable period of time. Even watering a small lawn
can take 2000 gallons.
He also referenced some chart from some utility in MN, might
be interesting to see what the chart actually shows, but
I would suspect he's right that it's probably not relevant.
That kind of stuff varies all over the map.


Ok maybe $50 was a little much but at the time she didn't think so. She
had a lot of time to think about it before she went to settlement, I would
have been more then happy to make adjustments. Then 7 months later she
came off very hostile to me as a neighbor. My electric bill are way over $
250 a month.

Is that with or without AC? I can see that bill in peak summer.
I'm in NJ here too, electric rate is 13 cents, and I'm only paying
about $170 a month in summer on a 3100 sq ft house. Winter it's
around that too. With no heat, no AC, it's more like $100 a month.
If you're at way over $250, whatever that means, I'd say something
is wrong.



And we share a very large yard that requires The sprinkler
system to run twice a day or more.

There's something that's very wrong. A lawn only needs to be
watered two or three times a week in summer. Running it twice
a day or more? is nuts, because you want to water it deeply just once
when it needs it, putting down about 1/2". If you're watering
in lightly several times every day, each time you're wasting
water wetting the grass,
getting it started, instead of watering it fully once. Also it
should be timed to end about 6AM, so you're watering it when
evaporation will be lowest.



My place before I bought it was one
house that got divided in two. I need to she a chart here in jersey not
out west... It's not a easy thing here and we're not on talking terms.
So I had to work with my attorney on this problem..


Why didn't you take her up on the Killawatt type idea?
You probably can't use a Killawatt because the pump is likely
240V, but as Ed pointed out, you can get meters for $100
that will measure it. Seems she had a somewhat reasonable idea.
Could have said, OK we'll meter it for 3 months, you pay
for half the cost of the meter set up. Then you'd have some real
numbers instead of totally winging it.
How is a lawyer going to figure out what a fair split should be?
He knows less than the two of you. Lawyers are real good at
running up bills in situations like this.

And who set up this nutty thing in a condo to begin with?
The well should have been part of the common property,
common expenses.

On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 2:44:06 PM UTC-4, NG wrote:
replying to trader_4 , NG wrote:
trader4 wrote:

If it's just the operating costs, I agree. But who pays
if the pump needs to be replaced? The well stops producing?
The sprinkler system needs maintenance? If all those are
treated as split costs if and when they occur, then $50
a month for electric to run what's on that list does sound
like a lot of money. I would also hope the electric heater
is just keeping the temp reasonably above freezing.
I wouldn't think the total operating cost for both units
is $50 a month, except maybe in the coldest winter months
when the electric heater is running.
Killawatt thing would solve it, but you'd have to do some
temporary rewiring to get those loads on it and probably have
to do them one at a time. The sprinkler system controller
is negligible, the well pump part of that is what matters.
Interesting that this was in place and nothing in the closing
documents address how it's going to be handled? It's just
a very bad arrangement. Even if it's spelled out, it's still
ripe for trouble, as he's learned.


Every thing is spell out in our condo agreement by laws,

If it is, then what does it say? What's spelled out in the
master deeds and bylaws is extremely important.



I actually use
to have solar panels that took care of all cost, I didn't have to worry
about asking for money for these shared expenses. I had to get a new roof
and no more solar panels. Anyway the person that sold his unit to her,
told me to come up with a dollar amount to charge her. She totally agreed
on the dollar amount, and went right to settlement And signed away on
this as is property. I have a very large yard in the front and the
sprinkler system runs twice day. Sorry I didn't mention that above.. Yes
it is a very bad set up here..


Like I said before, sprinkler system running for a lawn twice or
more a day, something is very wrong there. Should be putting down
~1" of water total a week, dividing it up in 2 or 3 waterings.
Does your neighbor have anything to say about that? If I saw
you watering inappropriately like a madman, I might be wondering
how much of the well expense is for that.

On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 9:50:12 AM UTC-4, net cop wrote:
NG writes:

I share a well with my neighbor we have 2 dwelling condo. My unit concest
of myself, and her unit has 3 people as of now. We share the following
which are all connected to my electric Meter... well pump, water
conditioner system, electric base board heater
that keeps the pump room warm during the winter all in a room in my
garage. Also a sprinkle system that shared on the front property. It's a
50/50 shared property. She had nationally agreed with hand shake when
she bought the unit next to me back November 2014, I came up with a
charge $ 50.00 which she agreed and was paying this till past May 2015
she stopped paying her monthly obligation To me. I was willing to drop
the price down, she putting up a fight. She is reneging On everything, I
had no choice put to seek legal advice and the issue is still not
resolved. She wanted to use a kill- a- watt gizmo in my garage, I'm
Not her landlord to be checking each day that this gizmo is
functioning Right, and again given her the convenience Every month
timeing this and
that off my electric bill. I think not... It's not the long term solution,
especially if I want to sell my unit no one wants to be involved with a
gizmo. Then my neighbors chopped up with a internet chart from Runstone
Electric Association energy from
Alexandra M,N from 2014, We live here in New Jersey not M,N. The chart
says it varies from family to family. She only wants to pay $ 15.00 a
month for her Calculations We're wrong from that chart, also there was
no mention how much a sprinkler system runs on electric, my neighbor has
no idea.... I think the best solution would be a second well... Do you
have any other ideas, well can be costly, she would have to pay half
since it's a shared property..

So, you are overcharging her for her half share of the electricity and
if she wants to measure actual usage you come up with:

"I'm not her landlord".
"checking each day that this gizmo is functioning Right"

No sympathy here.

--
Dan Espen

I thought that her offer to somehow meter the electric usage,
whether temporarily to get some numbers for a few months or
permanently, at least showed the neighbor wasn't being a total
ass. It sounds less expensive than starting a legal war.....

On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 12:19:39 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/13/2015 11:42 AM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Answer Man" wrote in message
...
Two water meters and one electric meter. Done!

it will take YEARS to pay for those with the savings to be had by the
neighbor, cutting $50/month down to whatever.



Nah, it is about the same as one visit to the lawyer.
EKM is one outfit that has electric meters under $100.

Watts has a water meter you can get for $60. For an hour or two of time
and less than $250 in material you are set. Now just agree on a rate
and maintenance fund, non-returnable if one party moves away.

That assumes that you do the work yourself. I agree, you or I
could do it cheaply. But..... This is a multi unit condo and I'm
not sure that in NJ you can do your own electrical/plumbing work that
requires a permit in that case. Especially when you have a hostile
neighbor. So, in this case, even if he has the skills, it's
probably a job for a pro. Still, when the neighbor suggested the
Killawatt idea, I would have looked into a metering solution that
would fix the whole thing, asked her if she was willing to pay half
the cost of the work, etc...... That might have made the $50 look
better.

Also, OP just posted for the first time something about the condo
legal documents covering this? What's up with that? That would
seem to be the most relevant thing at this point, what it says
about this.

On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 2:42:02 PM UTC-4, taxed and spent wrote:
"Answer Man" wrote in message
...
On 09/13/2015 11:42 AM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Answer Man" wrote in message
...
Two water meters and one electric meter. Done!

it will take YEARS to pay for those with the savings to be had by the
neighbor, cutting $50/month down to whatever.



It's not about savings. If you are going to charge *me* for electricity
and/or water, you had better accurately meter it.
Guessing ain't good enough for me.



Yes, but if they are sharing the electricity, they damn well be sharing the
cost of figuring out what the share is. So, if a whole new utility service
is required, the neighbor will be paying at least half of it. That puts
"being reasonable" in a new light.

+1


OP is making up numbers out of his butt. If he develops some real numbers,
the neighbor would be a dope to require a lot of infrastructure to get the
estimate down to a gnat's ass.

The problem would seem to be that developing real numbers that
are acceptable isn't a cheap or easy thing.

On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 3:39:57 PM UTC-4, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 9/13/2015 1:37 PM, Answer Man wrote:
On 09/13/2015 11:42 AM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Answer Man" wrote in message
...
Two water meters and one electric meter. Done!

it will take YEARS to pay for those with the savings to be had by the
neighbor, cutting $50/month down to whatever.



It's not about savings. If you are going to charge *me* for electricity
and/or water, you had better accurately meter it.
Guessing ain't good enough for me.



Here's the deal...

1) We don't know what the total cost to the OP is and, I suspect,
neither does he.

2) Assuming there was no well to share. What would it cost each of
them? A family of four using 100 gallons per person each day will pay
on average $34.29 a month in Phoenix compared to $65.47 for the same
amount in Boston. (pulled off the web, but some will be higher, some lower)

3) If the OP paid for the well, pump, water softener, and baseboard heat
in the pressure tank room or whatever, he's got a LOT of skin in the
game before the first glass of water is drawn in the neighbors condo.


Good point on the water softener, I had overlooked that. I've never
had one, but it typically requires putting salt in, servicing it, etc.
Given the OP is paying for it, likely lugging the bags around,
doing the work, $50 starts to sound quite reasonable to me. And if
there is no agreement that the other party is responsible for repairs,
pump replacement, softener replacement, etc, then it's probably a
bargain.




4) There are three people in the neighbor's condo and one in the OP's.
Are you really going to argue that their usage is equal?

5) When you consider the capital improvements just to HAVE the well,
pump, water conditioner, etc. AND the monthly recurring cost for
electricity and salt and then look at what the average city water bill
is, that $50 is not a bad deal.


+1


6) Finally, and where he screwed up, was he should have had the
agreement reduced to writing. Period. They had an agreement. I'm not
saying that it was a good agreement or a bad agreement. It doesn't
appear that it was contingent upon who used what or how much the
electricity costs turned out to be. It was, more or less, "If you will
provide me with water, I will pay you $50/mo.)

+1


7) Now the neighbor says "F**k you! I'm not paying anything"


The OP said that he's watering the lawn 2 or 3 times a day. I wonder
if the neighbor had any input on that insanity and if that might
be one thing that lead to wondering where the money is going, who's
really using it, etc.

On 9/13/2015 5:56 PM, trader_4 wrote:


Also, OP just posted for the first time something about the condo
legal documents covering this? What's up with that? That would
seem to be the most relevant thing at this point, what it says
about this.


Yes, makes all of out postings irrelevant it it is already spelled out.
That is the written contract making the rules, if there are any in place.

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 13 Sep 2015 05:44:03 +0000, NG
wrote:

I share a well with my neighbor we have 2 dwelling condo. My unit concest
of myself, and her unit has 3 people as of now. We share the following
which are all connected to my electric

Are you sure she wants it, or would insist on, using the kill-o-wattt,
for every month. If I were in her shoes, I'd want some real idea of
how much it cost to run the pump, and I'd want to measure each one for a
week or two or maybe a month or 2 or 3 momths, but after that, I'd agree
on a price and just pay it, Note how much electicity is now per KwH,
and if it goes up enough to warrant redoing the arithmetic, raise the
price by the same percentage. WRite all this down so if you ever end
up in small claims court you'll have a record. After you've gathered
data for months, give her two copies and have her sign one and return it
to you.

Meter... well pump, water conditioner system, electric base board heater

You definitely need to use your litle meter on the pump. Most people
have no idea how much their pump is running, and how much more it runs
when the lawn is watered. And how much electricity that takes and how
much that costs. That's what she wants to know and I don't blame her.

For all she knows, you've been making a 35 dollar profit on her, over
400 dollars a year.

Does the water conditioner system require electricity? It does require
chemicals iiuc.

The baseboard heater runs a lot more in the winter than the summer, but
the electric company ought to be able to tell you how much it costs to
heat a room the size of your pump room. Would the room be heated if
there were no pump in it? Do you have other things that are just for
you in that room. If yes and yes, than you have to pay more than half
of the cost of the heat. If No and No, than split it down the middle.

that keeps the pump room warm during the winter all in a room in my
garage. Also a sprinkle system that shared on the front property. It's a

That takes almost no electricity, right. The timer and the valve
transformer. You can put the little Kill-o-Watt meter on that for a
a couple weeks, and extrapolate to the whole summer, then either charge
more in the summer or average it out for the year.

Just like the cost for the baseboard heater, firguure out how much it
costs per season and eiither charge more in the winter or average it out
for the whole year.

50/50 shared property. She had nationally agreed with hand shake when
she bought the unit next to me back November 2014, I came up with a
charge $ 50.00 which she agreed and was paying this till past May 2015

When she bought her condo she was in a great mood and agreed to
whatever, but now she's had time to think and she wonders if she's
overpaying. I don't blame her.

she stopped paying her monthly obligation To me. I was willing to drop

Maybe she' having financial problems and the fight is just an excuse to
not pay, but I think you should still meter the pump for a month or
more, and the sprinkler system for a week or more (assuming its a week
that you actually sprinkle.) make detailed notes about start and stop**
settings and how you calculate the expense. And when you're done send
it to her with a new calculation of what she should pay every month.

It may be that she's overpaid ever since she moved in.

**Does she have access to the pump room. If not***, maybe you should
send her a note, a text on the phone seems like a good place to make a
record of it, that you're going to be plugging in the kill-o-watt meter
at 10AM Sunday if she'd like to watch and you can note the readings
together, and every Sunday at 10, you'll write down t he results, if she
wants to be there. And say when you'll switch to the sprinkler system,
one of thosse sundays at 10, of course. Find a day and time that's
convenient for both of you. If she never gets back to you, that will be
her failing.

***Even if she has access, that just makes it less necessary for her to
be there when you take your readings. She can come an hour later and
make her own readings and they should be similar to the ones you take ,
and write down. Or if she comes a day later, they should be 1/7th of
the way between your start and a week later. But this is more
calculations and it would be best if you were there together to write
everything down. You should do that, and maybe she should too., sort of
like counting votes as tallied on the back of mechanical voting
machines, all three poll watchers either write down what's there or look
on the official originally blank form to see what the other has written.

the price down, she putting up a fight. She is reneging On everything, I
had no choice put to seek legal advice and the issue is still not
resolved. She wanted to use a kill- a- watt gizmo in my garage, I'm
Not her landlord to be checking each day that this gizmo is functioning
Right, and again given her the convenience Every month timeing this and
that off my electric bill.I think not... It's not the long term solution,

I don't think she wants that.

especially if I want to sell my unit no one wants to be involved with a
gizmo. Then my neighbors chopped up with a internet chart from Runstone
Electric Association energy from
Alexandra M,N from 2014, We live here in New Jersey not M,N. The chart

She showing you the sort of thing she wants. You can get the same chart
for NJ. If you can't find it call the power company and ask them. Or
call the property management compnay that the condos use. They probably
manage more than one property and even if they don't, they might have
this or they'll go find it. That's part of their job, although they may
want to charge extra!!

says it varies from family to family. She only wants to pay $ 15.00 a

So she's offered 15. So that makes the chance that she's in financial
problems much less. 15 might be right. How do you know it's not?

month for her Calculations We're wrong from that chart, also there was
no mention how much a sprinkler system runs on electric, my neighbor has

I haven't read the other replies, but I'll bet they'll say it costs
barely any elecricity to run the sprinkler system, and the only thing
that does cost is running the pump.

no idea.... I think the best solution would be a second well... Do you

Are you crazy?

have any other ideas, well can be costly, she would have to pay half
since it's a shared property..

And you'd have to pay the other half.

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 13 Sep 2015 18:44:01 +0000, NG
wrote:

replying to Mayayana , NG wrote:
mayayana wrote:

You should be talking to her, not to us. We
don't even know what you pay for electricity.
$250/month? More? Less? Where I live $50/month
for what you describe seems very high. My last bill
was $47. (Though we don't leave things on when
we're not using them; we don't have AC or
microwave; we have gas for heat and stove.)
$15 sounds about right to me. If I had to guess I'd say
you were gouging them. But I'm not in your condo
association and don't know the details. What if $15
is not enough and it should be $20? Who cares?
$5/month. You're thinking of paying a lawyer to take
it to court over that? It sounds to me like you and
the neighbor need better communication.


First, off I came across this site last night, and there was another
person on here that had a similar situation.
So that's when I wrote in. I pay well over $ 250 a month on electric
bills to answer your question. She agreed 0n the $ 50 way before she went
to settlement. And sign away excepting All terms and conditions on this
shared property Then 7 months later she came at me very hostile, I wanted

Maybe someone riled her up about the bill she's paying you on the same
day her boss yelled at her and her boyfirend dumped her.

to work something out with her she turned down the offer, she should of
did all her homework before she signed at settlement.

She signed a contrac with YOU? Even though you were not the seller of
the condo she bought?

What's the term of the contract? It's not forever, is it?

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 13 Sep 2015 13:07:13 -0500, dpb
wrote:

On 09/13/2015 9:33 AM, dpb wrote:
...

Within a month of moving in, the new guy cut the line serving the other
property off and that was that...the original owner ended up drilling a
new well.


That could have been the intent of both parties from the outset.

No, I know very well it wasn't the seller's intent whatsoever or he
would have dug the well prior to coming home from work one afternoon to
discover he had no water...

I thought the seller was a widow. Who is "he"?
...

Although it became very clear after the fact it was indeed the intent of
the purcharser all along...

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 13 Sep 2015 14:39:52 -0500, Unquestionably
Confused wrote:


7) Now the neighbor says "F**k you! I'm not paying anything"

No. She's offering 15 dollars a month. He put that at the end
somewhere, so I think a lot of people missed it.

They could have "agreed" at the outset for the neighbor to pay $200 a
month and that's fine and had it been reduced to a contract the courts
would uphold it and the neighbor would be on the hook for that amount.
You can negotiate anything and you can contract to do anything. Once
you do, you're liable.

Usually, but not forever. If no time peiiod is specified, the court
will assume a reasonable time. Like maybe a year. Or maybe less.
Then they get to renegotiate.

And his efforts with the salt bags should be considered, as well as that
there are 3 people in the other unit..

On 09/13/2015 03:47 PM, Juan Abogado wrote:
On 09/13/2015 01:44 AM, NG wrote:
I share a well with my neighbor we have 2 dwelling condo. My unit concest
of myself, and her unit has 3 people as of now.

What happens when your neighbor or one of her guests gets sick from the well water you are effectively selling her?

Are you having the water professionally* tested periodically?
(Professionally does not mean the idiot in the orange vest at HD.)

Are you taking any steps to ensure the water is safe?

Do you have business liability insurance to cover your ass?

Wow, hadn't considered that. That changes everything.

The well must be owned by the condo assoc and on it's own official service drop with its own meter.
Electric service and other maintenance costs need to be billed to condo assoc.
Water meters need to be installed to determine each users share of the bill.
Water softener needs to be serviced/maintained by paid third party.

This ditz sure opened up an expensive can of worms!

NG wrote:
replying to Unquestionably Confused , NG wrote:
puzzled2 wrote:

Plus 1 - In an arrangement such as this ALL expenses need to be
calculated. Some may be fixed (heat to prevent freezing in that
room) others will be variable, e.g amount of water pumped for the
unit with 3+ vs. your unit, etc.
You say you need legal advice and I would agree. Problem is you
won't get it here. Contact an attorney NOW, before you do anything
else, and get his/her advice. Do NOT disconnect the neighbor
without checking first with the attorney.
Expense? Sure but the MOST expensive question you can ask your
attorney is "Did I do the right thing?" Chances are great that the
answer is "No!" and the remedy will cost you far more than the
advice going into this would have cost.


Trust me I wasn't looking for legal advice on this website not by no
means. I'm already dealing with a attorney on this situation, it
hasn't been easy, my neighbor came off very hostile from the very
start. I do have a very large yard and water 2 or maybe 3 times a
day.

Unless you have a brand new lawn, you are over watering.

On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 2:56:36 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 13 Sep 2015 05:44:03 +0000, NG
wrote:

I share a well with my neighbor we have 2 dwelling condo. My unit concest
of myself, and her unit has 3 people as of now. We share the following
which are all connected to my electric

Are you sure she wants it, or would insist on, using the kill-o-wattt,
for every month. If I were in her shoes, I'd want some real idea of
how much it cost to run the pump, and I'd want to measure each one for a
week or two or maybe a month or 2 or 3 momths, but after that, I'd agree
on a price and just pay it,

That's what I would think is reasonable too. But, you can't do it with
a simple Killawatt either, it's very likely 240V and it's surely hard
wired in. Plus, it's a multifamily building, in which case I don't think
you can legally do your own electric work either, especially with the
hostile neighbor. Also, we don't know if the OP is even capable of doing
the work himself anyway. So, it could cost quite a bit to get this done
by an electrician and probably just as much to do it temporarily as permanent.


Note how much electicity is now per KwH,
and if it goes up enough to warrant redoing the arithmetic, raise the
price by the same percentage. WRite all this down so if you ever end
up in small claims court you'll have a record. After you've gathered
data for months, give her two copies and have her sign one and return it
to you.

Meter... well pump, water conditioner system, electric base board heater


In which case it gets more complicated to rewire to a power
meter and more costly.



You definitely need to use your litle meter on the pump.

Unlikely he's going to use a Killawatt on the pump.


Most people
have no idea how much their pump is running, and how much more it runs
when the lawn is watered. And how much electricity that takes and how
much that costs. That's what she wants to know and I don't blame her.


He also said he waters the lawn 2 or 3 times every day. I'm thinking
that might have lead her to wonder what's going on, what it's costing,
etc. Would be interesting to know if that subject ever came up.



For all she knows, you've been making a 35 dollar profit on her, over
400 dollars a year.

Does the water conditioner system require electricity? It does require
chemicals iiuc.


Adding the salt, buying it, hauling it home, are one reason why
$50 a month doesn't sound high to me anymore. I hadn't factored
that in. Also, $50 is perfectly reasonable if the neighbor has no
shared responsibility for repair, replacement costs. The pump
could fail tomorrow and the OP could have a $1000 expense. If
all that's on the OP, $50 is more than reasonable. Also, who
paid for this well to begin with?



The baseboard heater runs a lot more in the winter than the summer,

That's for sure, it's zero in summer.

but
the electric company ought to be able to tell you how much it costs to
heat a room the size of your pump room. Would the room be heated if
there were no pump in it? Do you have other things that are just for
you in that room. If yes and yes, than you have to pay more than half
of the cost of the heat. If No and No, than split it down the middle.

that keeps the pump room warm during the winter all in a room in my
garage. Also a sprinkle system that shared on the front property. It's a

That takes almost no electricity, right. The timer and the valve
transformer. You can put the little Kill-o-Watt meter on that for a
a couple weeks, and extrapolate to the whole summer, then either charge
more in the summer or average it out for the year.

What that's using is negligible. It's just a wallwart.
Who pays to blow the sprinkler system out each Fall,
who pays for repairs to it or who does that stuff themselves
instead of paying someone, would be more important.



Just like the cost for the baseboard heater, firguure out how much it
costs per season and eiither charge more in the winter or average it out
for the whole year.

50/50 shared property.




She had nationally agreed with hand shake when
she bought the unit next to me back November 2014, I came up with a
charge $ 50.00 which she agreed and was paying this till past May 2015

When she bought her condo she was in a great mood and agreed to
whatever, but now she's had time to think and she wonders if she's
overpaying. I don't blame her.

Some here claim she agreed to a contract with the OP and she's
stuck forever, a court would force her to keep paying the $50, etc.
I say from what I've heard so far, no time period was ever specified,
so the contract was good as long as each party was OK with it.
It's kind of like a guy coming to your house selling bottled water
and you verbally agree to take 10 gallons a week from him for $10.
Does that mean you're contractually bound forever? Of course not.



she stopped paying her monthly obligation To me. I was willing to drop

Maybe she' having financial problems and the fight is just an excuse to
not pay, but I think you should still meter the pump for a month or
more, and the sprinkler system for a week or more (assuming its a week
that you actually sprinkle.) make detailed notes about start and stop**
settings and how you calculate the expense. And when you're done send
it to her with a new calculation of what she should pay every month.


And who pays for the cost of installing all the necessary metering?
I'd only do it if she agrees to split the cost and also agrees to
split the cost of repairs to the various components, not just the
operating cost.


It may be that she's overpaid ever since she moved in.

As I see it, she would have overpaid only if she was sending
him more than the $50 a month. That was the agreed on amount.
There was no agreement or requirement to accurately split the cost.
He offered her water at $50 a month, she accepted.
How about if he finds out that it's actually costing him more than $100
and he wants her to now pay him the difference for each month
retroactively? And if the agreement never included the shared cost
of the well to begin with, repairs on it, repairs on the sprinkler
system, water softner maintenance, etc, then she has absolutely
zero reason to even claim that $50 is unreasonable.





no idea.... I think the best solution would be a second well... Do you

Are you crazy?

A second well would be the best solution for the OP if it's determined
the lady who doesn't want to pay is the one who has to pay for it.



have any other ideas, well can be costly, she would have to pay half
since it's a shared property..

And you'd have to pay the other half.

Without the condo master deed, the bylaws and knowing the whole history
of how this came to be, it's not clear who would have to pay for what.

On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 3:35:13 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 13 Sep 2015 14:39:52 -0500, Unquestionably
Confused wrote:


7) Now the neighbor says "F**k you! I'm not paying anything"

No. She's offering 15 dollars a month. He put that at the end
somewhere, so I think a lot of people missed it.

They could have "agreed" at the outset for the neighbor to pay $200 a
month and that's fine and had it been reduced to a contract the courts
would uphold it and the neighbor would be on the hook for that amount.
You can negotiate anything and you can contract to do anything. Once
you do, you're liable.

Usually, but not forever. If no time peiiod is specified, the court
will assume a reasonable time. Like maybe a year. Or maybe less.
Then they get to renegotiate.


I don't think a court would even consider a "reasonable" time period.
If there was no time period agreed to, I'd say the contract is good for
as long as both parties are OK with it. Say a guy comes to your house
selling bottled water. You just agree to take 10 gallons a week, for $10.
How long does that bind either party for? I'd say the same thing, as long
as both parties are still OK with it.

All these problems are very good reasons why one should never get
into this kind of thing to begin with. And if somehow you do, for
sure when you're agreeing to something like this, there should be
a written, signed contract in place. If I were the OP, I'd have a
section in there stating that I was not responsible for water quality,
for any service interruption due to power loss, eqpt failure, etc.
And it should also spell out who is responsible for paying for the
repair and/or replacement of these systems.

dadiOH wrote:
NG wrote:
replying to Unquestionably Confused , NG wrote:
puzzled2 wrote:

Plus 1 - In an arrangement such as this ALL expenses need to be
calculated. Some may be fixed (heat to prevent freezing in that
room) others will be variable, e.g amount of water pumped for the
unit with 3+ vs. your unit, etc.
You say you need legal advice and I would agree. Problem is you
won't get it here. Contact an attorney NOW, before you do anything
else, and get his/her advice. Do NOT disconnect the neighbor
without checking first with the attorney.
Expense? Sure but the MOST expensive question you can ask your
attorney is "Did I do the right thing?" Chances are great that the
answer is "No!" and the remedy will cost you far more than the
advice going into this would have cost.


Trust me I wasn't looking for legal advice on this website not by no
means. I'm already dealing with a attorney on this situation, it
hasn't been easy, my neighbor came off very hostile from the very
start. I do have a very large yard and water 2 or maybe 3 times a
day.

What kinda yard needs 2-3 times watering a day?
You just seeded it?


Unless you have a brand new lawn, you are over watering.

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...
dadiOH wrote:
NG wrote:
replying to Unquestionably Confused , NG wrote:
puzzled2 wrote:

Plus 1 - In an arrangement such as this ALL expenses need to be
calculated. Some may be fixed (heat to prevent freezing in that
room) others will be variable, e.g amount of water pumped for the
unit with 3+ vs. your unit, etc.
You say you need legal advice and I would agree. Problem is you
won't get it here. Contact an attorney NOW, before you do anything
else, and get his/her advice. Do NOT disconnect the neighbor
without checking first with the attorney.
Expense? Sure but the MOST expensive question you can ask your
attorney is "Did I do the right thing?" Chances are great that the
answer is "No!" and the remedy will cost you far more than the
advice going into this would have cost.


Trust me I wasn't looking for legal advice on this website not by no
means. I'm already dealing with a attorney on this situation, it
hasn't been easy, my neighbor came off very hostile from the very
start. I do have a very large yard and water 2 or maybe 3 times a
day.

What kinda yard needs 2-3 times watering a day?
You just seeded it?


Unless you have a brand new lawn, you are over watering.



He has a large yard and maybe his 2-3 times a day is watering in phases.
Hard to tell with the dribble of facts and nonsense from this OP.

On 09/14/2015 12:20 PM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Tony wrote in message
...
....

...I do have a very large yard and water 2 or maybe 3 times a
day.

What kinda yard needs 2-3 times watering a day?
You just seeded it?

Unless you have a brand new lawn, you are over watering.

He has a large yard and maybe his 2-3 times a day is watering in phases.
....

Or, similar to here, it's large and don't have a fixed system so use
multiple lawn tractor-style sprinklers...in dry spells they run
essentially constantly as it takes several days to cover the area so
it's time to start over when finish one pass.

--

On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 1:20:39 PM UTC-4, taxed and spent wrote:
"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...
dadiOH wrote:
NG wrote:
replying to Unquestionably Confused , NG wrote:
puzzled2 wrote:

Plus 1 - In an arrangement such as this ALL expenses need to be
calculated. Some may be fixed (heat to prevent freezing in that
room) others will be variable, e.g amount of water pumped for the
unit with 3+ vs. your unit, etc.
You say you need legal advice and I would agree. Problem is you
won't get it here. Contact an attorney NOW, before you do anything
else, and get his/her advice. Do NOT disconnect the neighbor
without checking first with the attorney.
Expense? Sure but the MOST expensive question you can ask your
attorney is "Did I do the right thing?" Chances are great that the
answer is "No!" and the remedy will cost you far more than the
advice going into this would have cost.


Trust me I wasn't looking for legal advice on this website not by no
means. I'm already dealing with a attorney on this situation, it
hasn't been easy, my neighbor came off very hostile from the very
start. I do have a very large yard and water 2 or maybe 3 times a
day.

What kinda yard needs 2-3 times watering a day?
You just seeded it?


Unless you have a brand new lawn, you are over watering.



He has a large yard and maybe his 2-3 times a day is watering in phases.
Hard to tell with the dribble of facts and nonsense from this OP.

Large front yard and condo does not compute, generally. And even if it
is very large, why would you water 2-3 times a day, instead of just
continuous, start to finish?

On 09/14/2015 12:48 PM, trader_4 wrote:
....

Large front yard and condo does not compute, generally. And even if it
is very large, why would you water 2-3 times a day, instead of just
continuous, start to finish?

Specifics can always destroy generalities...


Being in an area with its own well and as was stated it started as a
single dwelling which has been subdivided instead of being built as a
condo in a more confined area, it doesn't seem unlikely at all to me
that it might very well (so to speak ) be situated on a sizable lot.

Now, if indeed there is a "sprinkler system" and by that it means it's a
fixed system rather than the poor man's version of the tracking
sprinkler following the hose pattern, it would seem that perhaps the
controller is set up wrong to be running as frequently as is rather than
thoroughly watering a given section. But then again, maybe its actually
even larger and the zones are that many...who knows for sure?

--

There are submetering outfits. I worked for one a decade ago. I loved
Kill-a-watt. Want one for heat. Was looking at doppler flow meters.
COuldn't find a used one cheap enough that I would enjoy opening up and
playing with it. Water does have some magnetism, and the magnetic meters may
be getting good and cheap enough.

We got meters from India and China. THe best wudda been to send the signal
thru the power grid itself, except everywhere you get a transformer you lose
the signal (which is why power firms never got into internet). Some will use
a phone or internet line to send the meter reading in. As I understand it the
future is using RFID to read the meters as you drive (or drone fly) by the
unit. I've seen meter reading drone ads in engineering mags.

Anyone good with Parallax boards and Adruino? (email me) I got an HVAC
tri-corder project on the back burner some HVAC engineers talked me into a
few years ago. Problem is, as soon as we make it, you know the Chinese will
flood us with a five buck version. Use infrared to measure temperature,
ultrasound to measure flow rates, and magnetism to measure electricity and
maybe flow.


- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Phooey on GUI: Windows for subprime Bimbos]

dpb wrote:
On 09/14/2015 12:48 PM, trader_4 wrote:
...

Large front yard and condo does not compute, generally. And even if it
is very large, why would you water 2-3 times a day, instead of just
continuous, start to finish?

Specifics can always destroy generalities...


Being in an area with its own well and as was stated it started as a
single dwelling which has been subdivided instead of being built as a
condo in a more confined area, it doesn't seem unlikely at all to me
that it might very well (so to speak ) be situated on a sizable lot.

Now, if indeed there is a "sprinkler system" and by that it means it's a
fixed system rather than the poor man's version of the tracking
sprinkler following the hose pattern, it would seem that perhaps the
controller is set up wrong to be running as frequently as is rather than
thoroughly watering a given section. But then again, maybe its actually
even larger and the zones are that many...who knows for sure?

--
My cabin is situated on a bare land condo. We have community well for
all. But I drilled my own one. Condo should have by law, a board and
government approved condo by-law where I live. No problem between
owners at all. Nothing like OP's problem can occur.

On 09/14/2015 2:08 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
....

My cabin is situated on a bare land condo. We have community well for
all. But I drilled my own one. Condo should have by law, a board and
government approved condo by-law where I live. No problem between
owners at all. Nothing like OP's problem can occur.

I'd guess the OP's arrangement is simply a duplex, not really a "condo"
at all by the legal definition...

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 09/14/2015 2:08 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
...

My cabin is situated on a bare land condo. We have community well for
all. But I drilled my own one. Condo should have by law, a board and
government approved condo by-law where I live. No problem between
owners at all. Nothing like OP's problem can occur.

I'd guess the OP's arrangement is simply a duplex, not really a "condo" at
all by the legal definition...


It could be. Given how sloppy the OP has been with all of these postings, I
bet there is something in the chain of title saying the well is shared and
costs are to be shared. Now all he has to do is figure an accurate way to
share costs, not just keep using the number someone pulled out of their
butt.

And is the yard shared? Who pays for that (not just the water)?