Kayak storage on the beach.

Kind of like this:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1081497...81736115293042
except replacing the two pavers under each 2x6 with a cinder block.

I would like to secure the 2x6's to the cinder blocks so the boards
don't squirm around when loading/positioning the kayak.

I am thinking two blue masonry screws at each contact area. But a
little voice is saying "That's fine for just hanging something but in
this case they will split the cinder blocks when torque is applied"

How does this sound to Those Who Know?

Push-comes-to-shove, lashing.

Better solutions?
--
Pete Cresswell

On 8/29/2015 10:14 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Kayak storage on the beach.

Kind of like this:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1081497...81736115293042
except replacing the two pavers under each 2x6 with a cinder block.

Google claims page not found.

I would like to secure the 2x6's to the cinder blocks so the boards
don't squirm around when loading/positioning the kayak.

I am thinking two blue masonry screws at each contact area. But a
little voice is saying "That's fine for just hanging something but in
this case they will split the cinder blocks when torque is applied"

How does this sound to Those Who Know?

Push-comes-to-shove, lashing.

Better solutions?

I've been fastening cinder blocks to "block fences", lately. My
prefered method is to drill a hole in the block with a hammer-drill.
The hole diameter is large enough to accommodate the *head* of a bolt!

Then, fill the hole with an epoxy (I like "SET-PAC EZ" but there are
many others, depending on how strong you need the bond). And, set the
bolt head into the hole -- using a jig to keep it standing in the
correct orientation (e.g., drill a hole in a scrap piece of lumber just
large enough for the THREADS of the bolt; set the board ON the cinderblock
with the threads protuding through UP the hole)

Once set, you can position your board (or whatever) on the bolt and
secure with a large flat washer and nut.

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 13:14:49 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Kayak storage on the beach.

Kind of like this:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1081497...81736115293042
except replacing the two pavers under each 2x6 with a cinder block.

I would like to secure the 2x6's to the cinder blocks so the boards
don't squirm around when loading/positioning the kayak.

I am thinking two blue masonry screws at each contact area. But a
little voice is saying "That's fine for just hanging something but in
this case they will split the cinder blocks when torque is applied"

How does this sound to Those Who Know?

Push-comes-to-shove, lashing.

Better solutions?
You can use tap cons but they do not really hold that well in concrete
blocks. The block is too soft. Squirting some epoxy in the hole and
then snugging up the tap con is better.

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 13:14:49 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Kayak storage on the beach.

Kind of like this:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1081497...81736115293042
except replacing the two pavers under each 2x6 with a cinder block.

I would like to secure the 2x6's to the cinder blocks so the boards
don't squirm around when loading/positioning the kayak.

I am thinking two blue masonry screws at each contact area. But a
little voice is saying "That's fine for just hanging something but in
this case they will split the cinder blocks when torque is applied"

How does this sound to Those Who Know?

Push-comes-to-shove, lashing.

Better solutions?

Can't see the link photo. Look at:

http://www.liquidnails.com/products/construction-adhesive-LN903

Or urethane caulk is used in cars. buses and train construction. It
will adhere to "a ball of lard". Don't get it on you or your clothes.
You have to chew it off

One brand:

http://www.dap.com/product_details.aspx?BrandID=28&SubcatID=6

(PeteCresswell) posted for all of us...



Kayak storage on the beach.

Kind of like this:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1081497...81736115293042
except replacing the two pavers under each 2x6 with a cinder block.

Sorry, that page not found...

I would like to secure the 2x6's to the cinder blocks so the boards
don't squirm around when loading/positioning the kayak.

I am thinking two blue masonry screws at each contact area. But a
little voice is saying "That's fine for just hanging something but in
this case they will split the cinder blocks when torque is applied"

How does this sound to Those Who Know?

Push-comes-to-shove, lashing.

Better solutions?

Not being able to see your pix I will give estiguess.
How much do they weight and how many? Horizontal or vertical?
Tapcons (the blue screws) would likely work. Epoxy method by one poster
would work but $$$ All thread rod through the block might work. Like most
projects a little engineering is involved.

Shame I can't see the pix...

--
Tekkie

Per Tekkie®:

Shame I can't see the pix...

Try now.

First pic:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1081497...90642238079874

I think either Picasa has been moving the furniture around or it's been
so long since I started a new album that I forgot... either way, that
album had defaulted to Private access. Hopefully Public now.
--
Pete Cresswell

On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 20:48:25 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per Tekkie®:

Shame I can't see the pix...

Try now.

First pic:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1081497...90642238079874

I think either Picasa has been moving the furniture around or it's been
so long since I started a new album that I forgot... either way, that
album had defaulted to Private access. Hopefully Public now.

I mentioned liquid nails construction adhesive, It will stick wood to
blocks Pick your poison

On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 20:48:25 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per Tekkie®:

Shame I can't see the pix...

Try now.

First pic:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1081497...90642238079874

I think either Picasa has been moving the furniture around or it's been
so long since I started a new album that I forgot... either way, that
album had defaulted to Private access. Hopefully Public now.

I would attach 2x4's or 1x2's to the boards to straddle the blocks.
Bolting or gluing the 2x6's to the blocks makes them hard to move,
since you've more than doubled the weight.

On 8/30/2015 5:48 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Tekkie®:

Shame I can't see the pix...

Try now.

First pic:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1081497...90642238079874

I think either Picasa has been moving the furniture around or it's been
so long since I started a new album that I forgot... either way, that
album had defaulted to Private access. Hopefully Public now.

Does this "jig" remain in one place? Or, does it need to be "portable"?

How long are the 2x6's (I assume this corresponds to the width of
the kayak?)

On 8/30/2015 6:29 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 20:48:25 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per Tekkie®:

Shame I can't see the pix...

Try now.

First pic:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1081497...90642238079874

I think either Picasa has been moving the furniture around or it's been
so long since I started a new album that I forgot... either way, that
album had defaulted to Private access. Hopefully Public now.

I would attach 2x4's or 1x2's to the boards to straddle the blocks.
Bolting or gluing the 2x6's to the blocks makes them hard to move,
since you've more than doubled the weight.

If the 2x6 only needs to be restrained side-to-side, front-to-back,
rotate the blocks so the cavities are on top. Then, put ~5x5 inch
"nubs" on the underside of the 2x6 to fit within the hollows of
the cinder blocks. This will keep the boards from shifting -- but
not prevent them from being lifted off the blocks.

Note that you might wish to use "half blocks", instead. I don't
doubt they would adequately support the kayak's weight as well
as the full blocks -- yet would be half the size/weight (and
still have a single cavity that could be exploited by these "nubs")

On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 21:45:49 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 8/30/2015 6:29 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 20:48:25 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per Tekkie®:

Shame I can't see the pix...

Try now.

First pic:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1081497...90642238079874

I think either Picasa has been moving the furniture around or it's been
so long since I started a new album that I forgot... either way, that
album had defaulted to Private access. Hopefully Public now.

I would attach 2x4's or 1x2's to the boards to straddle the blocks.
Bolting or gluing the 2x6's to the blocks makes them hard to move,
since you've more than doubled the weight.

If the 2x6 only needs to be restrained side-to-side, front-to-back,
rotate the blocks so the cavities are on top. Then, put ~5x5 inch
"nubs" on the underside of the 2x6 to fit within the hollows of
the cinder blocks. This will keep the boards from shifting -- but
not prevent them from being lifted off the blocks.

Note that you might wish to use "half blocks", instead. I don't
doubt they would adequately support the kayak's weight as well
as the full blocks -- yet would be half the size/weight (and
still have a single cavity that could be exploited by these "nubs")


Best solution yet.

On Sunday, August 30, 2015 at 9:05:29 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 20:48:25 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per TekkieŽ:

Shame I can't see the pix...

Try now.

First pic:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1081497...90642238079874

I think either Picasa has been moving the furniture around or it's been
so long since I started a new album that I forgot... either way, that
album had defaulted to Private access. Hopefully Public now.

I mentioned liquid nails construction adhesive, It will stick wood to
blocks Pick your poison

+1

Simple and for this application all that's needed.

Per Vic Smith:
If the 2x6 only needs to be restrained side-to-side, front-to-back,
rotate the blocks so the cavities are on top. Then, put ~5x5 inch
"nubs" on the underside of the 2x6 to fit within the hollows of
the cinder blocks. This will keep the boards from shifting -- but
not prevent them from being lifted off the blocks.

Note that you might wish to use "half blocks", instead. I don't
doubt they would adequately support the kayak's weight as well
as the full blocks -- yet would be half the size/weight (and
still have a single cavity that could be exploited by these "nubs")


Best solution yet.

It occurred to me, but I had two reservations:

1) Part of the idea of this setup *is* to make it hard to move.
Heavier is better and I will apply the fastenings on-site.
We're thinking bored kids and the occasional nighttime drunks
here....

2) I have zero experience with sand, but it seemed like flipping them
hollows-side-up/down would accelerate any tendency for them to
sink into the sand.... less surface area...


Right now, my breadboard implementation is using blue screws and
it seems solid enough. Installation time comes, I'll remove the
screws and flip the blocks over and drill fresh holes.

I think Liquid Nails construction adhesive is also going to come into
the picture because experimentation with placing/removing the boat
indicates a need for some padding.

Got some of that Norsk multipurpose flooring (the stuff with the
scalloped edges so squares can be joined) laying around. It seems
pretty durable, so I'll Liquid-Nail it in place for the final setup.
--
Pete Cresswell

Per Don Y:
Does this "jig" remain in one place? Or, does it need to be "portable"?
Just the opposite: Harder-to-Move = Better

How long are the 2x6's (I assume this corresponds to the width of
the kayak?)

Haven't arrived at the final width yet. The restraining blocks are
the width of the kayak - the ideal being to have it nestle in there
and not have any room to wiggle back-and-forth in the wind.

Got to wait for the arrival of some beach wheels to see if I need for
the 2x6's to extend out on at least one side to make flipping the hull
upside-down on to the 2x6's easier.
--
Pete Cresswell

On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 10:05:00 AM UTC-4, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Best solution yet.

It occurred to me, but I had two reservations:

1) Part of the idea of this setup *is* to make it hard to move.
Heavier is better and I will apply the fastenings on-site.
We're thinking bored kids and the occasional nighttime drunks
here....

Then flip the hollows up, fill with rockcrete or sandcrete, insert a large bolt while still wet. Something like a 5/8 inch bolt six inches long, with the head sunk far enough to let the threaded end through your board, tighten a nut on top.

On 8/31/2015 7:09 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Don Y:
Does this "jig" remain in one place? Or, does it need to be "portable"?
Just the opposite: Harder-to-Move = Better

But, it's still *temporary*? I.e., you don't want to pour a footing
and make a permanent structure out of it?

How long are the 2x6's (I assume this corresponds to the width of
the kayak?)

Haven't arrived at the final width yet. The restraining blocks are
the width of the kayak - the ideal being to have it nestle in there
and not have any room to wiggle back-and-forth in the wind.

So, no point in replacing 2x6's with 2x4's (to conserve on weight -- as
in "portable")?

I.e., The kayak gets *stored* there? (you're not just *setting* it
there while you resurface the underside, etc.)

Got to wait for the arrival of some beach wheels to see if I need for
the 2x6's to extend out on at least one side to make flipping the hull
upside-down on to the 2x6's easier.

What sort of weight is involved? Is there merit to leaning the kayak
on its side (probably less chance of damage than "tipping it on its
bow/stern") and *sliding* something under it; then, lowering the
kayak down in place?

On 8/31/2015 7:04 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Vic Smith:
If the 2x6 only needs to be restrained side-to-side, front-to-back,
rotate the blocks so the cavities are on top. Then, put ~5x5 inch
"nubs" on the underside of the 2x6 to fit within the hollows of
the cinder blocks. This will keep the boards from shifting -- but
not prevent them from being lifted off the blocks.

Note that you might wish to use "half blocks", instead. I don't
doubt they would adequately support the kayak's weight as well
as the full blocks -- yet would be half the size/weight (and
still have a single cavity that could be exploited by these "nubs")


Best solution yet.

It occurred to me, but I had two reservations:

1) Part of the idea of this setup *is* to make it hard to move.
Heavier is better and I will apply the fastenings on-site.
We're thinking bored kids and the occasional nighttime drunks
here....

2) I have zero experience with sand, but it seemed like flipping them
hollows-side-up/down would accelerate any tendency for them to
sink into the sand.... less surface area...

If that were a problem, you could fill the blocks with cement/concrete
(with the exception of a "recess" near the top).

I'd be more worried about *blowing* sand piling up against the blocks
and kayak as it would effectively be acting as a windbreak.

Right now, my breadboard implementation is using blue screws and
it seems solid enough. Installation time comes, I'll remove the
screws and flip the blocks over and drill fresh holes.

You can also fasten a small "nailing surface" (screwing surface?)
to each block *permanently* and then attach/remove the actual
boards from *that*.

I think Liquid Nails construction adhesive is also going to come into
the picture because experimentation with placing/removing the boat
indicates a need for some padding.

Note that any adhesive will fail when the wood starts to rot.
You'll end up with splinters of wood adhering to the blocks
and the bulk of the lumber flaking off.

You could explore the synthetic wood products (they're sort of
plastic like) to see how they might work.

Got some of that Norsk multipurpose flooring (the stuff with the
scalloped edges so squares can be joined) laying around. It seems
pretty durable, so I'll Liquid-Nail it in place for the final setup.

On 8/31/2015 9:07 AM, TimR wrote:
On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 10:05:00 AM UTC-4, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Best solution yet.

It occurred to me, but I had two reservations:

1) Part of the idea of this setup *is* to make it hard to move. Heavier is
better and I will apply the fastenings on-site. We're thinking bored kids
and the occasional nighttime drunks here....

Then flip the hollows up, fill with rockcrete or sandcrete, insert a large
bolt while still wet. Something like a 5/8 inch bolt six inches long, with
the head sunk far enough to let the threaded end through your board, tighten
a nut on top.

The problem I've found with (galvanized) bolts used like this is
the nut invariably breaks the zinc coating on the threads and,
as such, the nut/threads eventually rust. So, I only use this
sort of hardware outdoors when I don't EVER intend to loosen the
nut!

(PeteCresswell) posted for all of us...



Per Tekkie®:

Shame I can't see the pix...

Try now.

First pic:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1081497...90642238079874

I think either Picasa has been moving the furniture around or it's been
so long since I started a new album that I forgot... either way, that
album had defaulted to Private access. Hopefully Public now.

I see it now... Any posted answer will most likely work.

--
Tekkie

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 17:26:49 -0400, Tekkie®
wrote:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1081497...90642238079874

I think either Picasa has been moving the furniture around or it's been
so long since I started a new album that I forgot... either way, that
album had defaulted to Private access. Hopefully Public now.

I see it now... Any posted answer will most likely work.

If the local area has high wind conditions, there is always the option
to use solid blocks vs standard CBS blocks with the cavities.

In one hurricane, I filled my aluminum small boat with water to hold
it down.

Per Don Y:

You could explore the synthetic wood products (they're sort of
plastic like) to see how they might work.

That is what I intend to use once this thing proves itself conceptually.

I was at Home Depot today looking at deck material, but the stuff I saw
was kind of thin - maybe 3/4" actual max thickness, and not that wide.

How about treated lumber (the stuff that's green)?
--
Pete Cresswell

Per Don Y:
I.e., The kayak gets *stored* there? (you're not just *setting* it
there while you resurface the underside, etc.)

Correct: bring it down in early sprint, take it home when daylight
savings time ends.

What sort of weight is involved? Is there merit to leaning the kayak
on its side (probably less chance of damage than "tipping it on its
bow/stern") and *sliding* something under it; then, lowering the
kayak down in place?

106#.... I've practiced rolling it sideways on the blocks and that's
pretty easy. In fact, I think it might be exactly what you are
suggesting with "leaning the kayak on it's side".

Just want to make sure it's still easy when it's on the beach wheels...
In fact, I am hoping for it to be easier.
--
Pete Cresswell

Per Oren:
If the local area has high wind conditions, there is always the option
to use solid blocks vs standard CBS blocks with the cavities.

In one hurricane, I filled my aluminum small boat with water to hold
it down.

Heavy weather is my biggest reservation. I'm up *here* and the kayak
is down *there*... 80+ miles away.

But I think that can be mitigated by choosing my season - check out the
weather history and limit myself to months when storms are rare. Dunno
what months those are yet.... but the data's out there.

OTOH, the owner of the windsurfing shop next to which this is going to
happen owes me big-time because I set up and maintain the IP cams that
people watch to see how things are on the bay.... so if I leave a key
with him and he's actually open when a storm is on the way....

--
Pete Cresswell

On 8/31/2015 4:25 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Don Y:

You could explore the synthetic wood products (they're sort of
plastic like) to see how they might work.

That is what I intend to use once this thing proves itself conceptually.

I was at Home Depot today looking at deck material, but the stuff I saw
was kind of thin - maybe 3/4" actual max thickness, and not that wide.

Yes, the thickness (and price!) was my lament -- I need some 4x12's.

How about treated lumber (the stuff that's green)?

See my "Roof dry rot" thread of 8/19. J Burns suggests treating with
a borate solution may give protection. OTOH, you'll also have to deal
with salt spray...

On 8/31/2015 4:29 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

What sort of weight is involved? Is there merit to leaning the kayak
on its side (probably less chance of damage than "tipping it on its
bow/stern") and *sliding* something under it; then, lowering the
kayak down in place?

106#.... I've practiced rolling it sideways on the blocks and that's
pretty easy. In fact, I think it might be exactly what you are
suggesting with "leaning the kayak on it's side".

Yes. I assume tipping it (while upside down) onto its bow would
put too much strain on too small a part of the boat? Otherwise,
you could hold/prop it up and "wheel" the support under it, then
ease the stern down onto the "trailer" (for want of a better word)

Just want to make sure it's still easy when it's on the beach wheels...
In fact, I am hoping for it to be easier.

Keep in mind that your own footing will be dubious in the sand.
Big/bulky things tend to get a mind of their own (imagine it being windy!)

Per Don Y:
How about treated lumber (the stuff that's green)?

See my "Roof dry rot" thread of 8/19. J Burns suggests treating with
a borate solution may give protection. OTOH, you'll also have to deal
with salt spray...

Sounds to me like the path of least resistance is to just let them rot
and replace as needed. The consequences of failure are seem to be
zero.
--
Pete Cresswell

On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 4:51:27 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
The problem I've found with (galvanized) bolts used like this is
the nut invariably breaks the zinc coating on the threads and,
as such, the nut/threads eventually rust. So, I only use this
sort of hardware outdoors when I don't EVER intend to loosen the
nut!
I didn't think of that, that's a good point.

I wonder if it would be worth wrapping the threads with teflon tape. I know people who do that, not to prevent a leak but to lubricate the fastener and allow easy removal later.

On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 7:25:43 PM UTC-4, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Don Y:

You could explore the synthetic wood products (they're sort of
plastic like) to see how they might work.

That is what I intend to use once this thing proves itself conceptually.

I was at Home Depot today looking at deck material, but the stuff I saw
was kind of thin - maybe 3/4" actual max thickness, and not that wide.


I assume you've heard of screws? ;-)

Two 3/4" boards, screwed together become 1.5" thick, three is 2.25" and so on.

Screwing the layers together in a running bond pattern could get you any width you desired. If it must be "square" at the edges, boards ripped in half would fill the gaps.

http://www.ecostonenw.com/8x8_offset.jpg

On 9/1/2015 10:51 AM, TimR wrote:
On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 4:51:27 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
The problem I've found with (galvanized) bolts used like this is the nut
invariably breaks the zinc coating on the threads and, as such, the
nut/threads eventually rust. So, I only use this sort of hardware
outdoors when I don't EVER intend to loosen the nut!

I didn't think of that, that's a good point.

I learned the hard way. : I was "too clever, by half" when I made
the valve manifolds for the irrigation system. Instead of "cheap,
crappy PVC", I opted for galvanized pipe! (This will be more durable!)

Over time, all of the threaded fittings rusted. So, I recently replaced
them with solvent welded PVC.

I wonder if it would be worth wrapping the threads with teflon tape. I know
people who do that, not to prevent a leak but to lubricate the fastener and
allow easy removal later.

On 9/1/2015 5:47 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Don Y:
How about treated lumber (the stuff that's green)?

See my "Roof dry rot" thread of 8/19. J Burns suggests treating with
a borate solution may give protection. OTOH, you'll also have to deal
with salt spray...

Sounds to me like the path of least resistance is to just let them rot
and replace as needed. The consequences of failure are seem to be
zero.

Except that they may have failed just before you need to set the kayak
*on* them (at the start of the season) *or* just before you need
to get the kayak *off* them. If the previous solutions that did NOT
attach the board to the blocks were rejected, this suggests a board
"falling off" would likewise not be desirable.