A few miscellaneious questions, if you can help me. The first are more
important. At the end, it's just curiosity. If you answer any of them,
it will help. If it matters, I live in Baltimore.


How do I know if the burner in my 1979 Carrier furnace is Beckett or
not? I don't see a name other than Carrier anywhere.


My control unit is giving me trouble, but now is not a good time to buy
a whole new furnace . If it fails, do I need to buy the exact model
control unti from Carrier, or can I use a fancy new thing like this
which costs** only $72.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beckett-7505...em19f402 066f
Are these things fairly universal?
Or even something like this
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honeywell-R8...em35d3f6 cf2c

**Way back in 1983, the supply house wanted $260 dollars for a
control unit, but eventually suggested a separate power-supply
transformer for $10, which is still working fine. .
About the first control above it says "Replaces Honeywell R7184A,
R8184G, and Carlin 48245, 40200, 42230, and 50200", but maybe that's
EXACT replacement, and I can still mount it for my furnace??


A friend in a nearby townhouse with the same furnace thinks his furnace
### would fire better with new electrodes. Ours are curved but online
we can only find straight. Does it matter, as long as the tips end up
where the curved tips do? And can the
electrodes be bad, anyhow? They don't seem any shorter now than they
were 10 years ago, and even if they're shorter, can't they be bent
closer? I have the diagram that gives distances. Seems to me it's
broken insulators that wouldl be the problem. But to buy new
insulators, no one gives the diameter, only that they're Beckett, and
two reviews of Amazon-sold electrodes said they didn't fit. (Didn't
they mean the insulators didn't fit??)


Everything I've seen shows that there should be a filter, the size of a
V-8 engine oil filter, in the line between the tank and the furnace.
Yet I don't have one, and in 31 years, I've never had a problem with a
nozzle clogging in less than 2 years. (Most were routinely replaced at
one year, but two years I couldn't get an apointment and I let an extra
year go by.) I've used several different oil companies over the last
31 years. How am I so lucky that I don't need a filter? Or what?


On the left side of the burner, where the oil comes in, as part of the
pump, I think they have something they call an oil filter. It's only 2
pieces of metal. How much filtering can that do? Does it just chop up
clumps of oil??? Hard to believe there are clumps, and hard to believe
chopping them up would make them small enough not to clog the nozzle,
but that's the only thing I can think of. I looked into this "filter"
20 years ago, and saw no sign of clumps, only a light coating of oil.


I see now that new ones have digital displays and electronic controls.
What do they do better than my 1979 control board does, that has iirc
two transistors, two resistors, a relay, and a red button?

What and where is the air tube? They refer to this a lot. Maybe I
don't have one on a '79 furnace?

There's been a lot of talk about increased furnace efficiency, but
that's really for gas, isn't it? dividing the output BTUs given in the
manual by the input BTUs, I get 80% and iiuc the new oil furnaces are
only 82 or 83% efficient. That's a 2.5 or 3.8% increase, only.


Obviously I have no use for this but what does it mean?
"4 Used Commercial Units Available
4.0-13.6 gph Max nozzle-size 8.0 gph"
If the max nozzle-size is 8gph, what is the bit about 13 that's right
before that?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CF1400-Becke...em27e22a 5c08


Thanks a lot for any help you can give.

On 11/15/2014 3:02 PM, micky wrote:
A few miscellaneious questions, if you can help me. The first are more
important. At the end, it's just curiosity. If you answer any of them,
it will help. If it matters, I live in Baltimore.


How do I know if the burner in my 1979 Carrier furnace is Beckett or
not? I don't see a name other than Carrier anywhere.

CY: Look on the web for pictures, that might give
you indication. Riellow is one other brand to
compare.


My control unit is giving me trouble, but now is not a good time to buy
a whole new furnace . If it fails, do I need to buy the exact model
control unti from Carrier, or can I use a fancy new thing like this
which costs** only $72.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beckett-7505...em19f402 066f
Are these things fairly universal?
Or even something like this
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honeywell-R8...em35d3f6 cf2c

**Way back in 1983, the supply house wanted $260 dollars for a
control unit, but eventually suggested a separate power-supply
transformer for $10, which is still working fine. .
About the first control above it says "Replaces Honeywell R7184A,
R8184G, and Carlin 48245, 40200, 42230, and 50200", but maybe that's
EXACT replacement, and I can still mount it for my furnace??

CY: Don't know.



A friend in a nearby townhouse with the same furnace thinks his furnace
### would fire better with new electrodes. Ours are curved but online
we can only find straight. Does it matter, as long as the tips end up
where the curved tips do?

CY: I don't know, but I doubt there is much difference.


And can the
electrodes be bad, anyhow? They don't seem any shorter now than they
were 10 years ago, and even if they're shorter, can't they be bent
closer? I have the diagram that gives distances. Seems to me it's
broken insulators that wouldl be the problem. But to buy new
insulators, no one gives the diameter, only that they're Beckett, and
two reviews of Amazon-sold electrodes said they didn't fit. (Didn't
they mean the insulators didn't fit??)

CY: I'd also expect the porcelean to crack or break.



Everything I've seen shows that there should be a filter, the size of a
V-8 engine oil filter, in the line between the tank and the furnace.
Yet I don't have one, and in 31 years, I've never had a problem with a
nozzle clogging in less than 2 years. (Most were routinely replaced at
one year, but two years I couldn't get an apointment and I let an extra
year go by.) I've used several different oil companies over the last
31 years. How am I so lucky that I don't need a filter? Or what?

CY: Not sure. You might have a good oil supplier, or
the pickup tube might be way over the bottom of the
tank.



On the left side of the burner, where the oil comes in, as part of the
pump, I think they have something they call an oil filter. It's only 2
pieces of metal. How much filtering can that do? Does it just chop up
clumps of oil??? Hard to believe there are clumps, and hard to believe
chopping them up would make them small enough not to clog the nozzle,
but that's the only thing I can think of. I looked into this "filter"
20 years ago, and saw no sign of clumps, only a light coating of oil.


I see now that new ones have digital displays and electronic controls.
What do they do better than my 1979 control board does, that has iirc
two transistors, two resistors, a relay, and a red button?

What and where is the air tube? They refer to this a lot. Maybe I
don't have one on a '79 furnace?

There's been a lot of talk about increased furnace efficiency, but
that's really for gas, isn't it? dividing the output BTUs given in the
manual by the input BTUs, I get 80% and iiuc the new oil furnaces are
only 82 or 83% efficient. That's a 2.5 or 3.8% increase, only.


CY: Ed Pawlowski wrote that his new oil furnace
saved him a pile of fuel the first year.


Obviously I have no use for this but what does it mean?
"4 Used Commercial Units Available
4.0-13.6 gph Max nozzle-size 8.0 gph"
If the max nozzle-size is 8gph, what is the bit about 13 that's right
before that?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CF1400-Becke...em27e22a 5c08


Thanks a lot for any help you can give.



--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Saturday, November 15, 2014 5:54:23 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/15/2014 3:02 PM, micky wrote:
A few miscellaneious questions, if you can help me. The first are more
important. At the end, it's just curiosity. If you answer any of them,
it will help. If it matters, I live in Baltimore.


How do I know if the burner in my 1979 Carrier furnace is Beckett or
not? I don't see a name other than Carrier anywhere.

CY: Look on the web for pictures, that might give
you indication. Riellow is one other brand to
compare.



I'd be surprised if a Carrier furnace had anything but a Carrier
burner, assuming it's original.




My control unit is giving me trouble, but now is not a good time to buy
a whole new furnace . If it fails, do I need to buy the exact model
control unti from Carrier, or can I use a fancy new thing like this
which costs** only $72.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beckett-7505...em19f402 066f
Are these things fairly universal?
Or even something like this
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honeywell-R8...em35d3f6 cf2c

**Way back in 1983, the supply house wanted $260 dollars for a
control unit, but eventually suggested a separate power-supply
transformer for $10, which is still working fine. .
About the first control above it says "Replaces Honeywell R7184A,
R8184G, and Carlin 48245, 40200, 42230, and 50200", but maybe that's
EXACT replacement, and I can still mount it for my furnace??

CY: Don't know.



A friend in a nearby townhouse with the same furnace thinks his furnace
### would fire better with new electrodes. Ours are curved but online
we can only find straight. Does it matter, as long as the tips end up
where the curved tips do?

CY: I don't know, but I doubt there is much difference.


What does "fire better" mean? If it lights up reliably, doesn't go bang,
then the electrodes are working OK.




And can the
electrodes be bad, anyhow? They don't seem any shorter now than they
were 10 years ago, and even if they're shorter, can't they be bent
closer? I have the diagram that gives distances. Seems to me it's
broken insulators that wouldl be the problem. But to buy new
insulators, no one gives the diameter, only that they're Beckett, and
two reviews of Amazon-sold electrodes said they didn't fit. (Didn't
they mean the insulators didn't fit??)

CY: I'd also expect the porcelean to crack or break.



Everything I've seen shows that there should be a filter, the size of a
V-8 engine oil filter, in the line between the tank and the furnace.
Yet I don't have one, and in 31 years, I've never had a problem with a
nozzle clogging in less than 2 years. (Most were routinely replaced at
one year, but two years I couldn't get an apointment and I let an extra
year go by.) I've used several different oil companies over the last
31 years. How am I so lucky that I don't need a filter? Or what?

CY: Not sure. You might have a good oil supplier, or
the pickup tube might be way over the bottom of the
tank.


Agree, who knows. It should have a fuel filter, but I have seen some
installs that don't too.




On the left side of the burner, where the oil comes in, as part of the
pump, I think they have something they call an oil filter. It's only 2
pieces of metal. How much filtering can that do? Does it just chop up
clumps of oil??? Hard to believe there are clumps, and hard to believe
chopping them up would make them small enough not to clog the nozzle,
but that's the only thing I can think of. I looked into this "filter"
20 years ago, and saw no sign of clumps, only a light coating of oil.


I see now that new ones have digital displays and electronic controls.
What do they do better than my 1979 control board does, that has iirc
two transistors, two resistors, a relay, and a red button?

What and where is the air tube? They refer to this a lot. Maybe I
don't have one on a '79 furnace?

There's been a lot of talk about increased furnace efficiency, but
that's really for gas, isn't it? dividing the output BTUs given in the
manual by the input BTUs, I get 80% and iiuc the new oil furnaces are
only 82 or 83% efficient. That's a 2.5 or 3.8% increase, only.


CY: Ed Pawlowski wrote that his new oil furnace
saved him a pile of fuel the first year.


Two things. First oil furnaces are available with efficiencies well
into the 90's. How much more they cost, IDK. Second, the fact that a
25 year old beast has a rating plate that says it's 80% and what it's
really running at could be very different.

Given all the uncertainties and unknowns, if Micky wants to keep this
one going, the best thing may be to have it serviced by a pro, get his
opinion on the options to replace the control unit, find out what else
is wrong with it, etc. Probably better
to pay a couple hundred bucks now, instead of having no heat when in
the middle of winter.

On 11/15/2014 6:25 PM, trader_4 wrote:

CY: Look on the web for pictures, that might give
you indication. Riellow is one other brand to
compare.



I'd be surprised if a Carrier furnace had anything but a Carrier
burner, assuming it's original.


Carrier uses both Beckett and Riello burners. Never made their own to
my knowledge






What does "fire better" mean? If it lights up reliably, doesn't go bang,
then the electrodes are working OK.

Yes. Here is tips on how to set them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6i2x08oI4o






Given all the uncertainties and unknowns, if Micky wants to keep this
one going, the best thing may be to have it serviced by a pro, get his
opinion on the options to replace the control unit, find out what else
is wrong with it, etc. Probably better
to pay a couple hundred bucks now, instead of having no heat when in
the middle of winter.


Sometimes paying a pro is the cheapest way to get it done. I'm all for
saving money and DIY but we all have limits to our knowledge and ability.

There are usually some good rebates and incentives to modernize too I
got a Fed and a State rebate and the state offered 0% financing on my
system. Savings in oil cost paid for the payments so in a way it was a
"free" upgrade.

On Saturday, November 15, 2014 6:50:08 PM UTC-6, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Sometimes paying a pro is the cheapest way to get it done. I'm all for
saving money and DIY but we all have limits to our knowledge and ability.

There are usually some good rebates and incentives to modernize too I
got a Fed and a State rebate and the state offered 0% financing on my
system. Savings in oil cost paid for the payments so in a way it was a
"free" upgrade.

pssst...he won't "get" this!

What is going wrong with your control unit that makes you want to replace it

They are pretty simple

Usual problems would be with the high voltage transformer which by the way can be very dangerous to work with and is not really part of the control unit

Other usual problem is with the flame sensing electric eye

The rest is a few relays and the 24 volt xformer


What problem are you having




Mark

Yours is the simpler post to answer, so you're first.

On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 18:47:45 -0800 (PST), wrote:

What is going wrong with your control unit that makes you want to replace it

Late last winter, it stopped turning the furnace on. I took off the
cover and noted the relay and that when I pushed the relay down with a
wood stick, the furnace went on. Letting it run for an hour, or two if
it's cold, once a day, works fine except if the night is especially
cold. I have a whole spare burner, from when a neighbor replaced his
identical furnace, so I have a spare control unit, but I don't KNOW that
the control unit is good. Possibly, that's why he bought the new
furnace.**

They are pretty simple

Usual problems would be with the high voltage transformer which by the way can be very dangerous to work with and is not really part of the control unit

That seems to have failed just a couple years ago, and I replaced it
with my spare.

Other usual problem is with the flame sensing electric eye

I wipe that off whenever there is trouble, but it's never been dirty.
There is a spare one on the spare burner, if I need it.

The rest is a few relays and the 24 volt xformer

The 24volt xformer failed 6 weeks after I bought the house. The house
was only 4 years old. I had 3 guests from NYC. I was the first one
to have bought a house, so I felt like a big shot. Saturday at noon on
July 4th weekend, the AC failed, because the 24v transformer failed.
Sunday morning at 8 the water stopped.*** and Sunday at noon, ALL the
electricity failed. **** More below

What problem are you having

Nothing yet, but I had planned to replace the control unit today, or
soon, so the thermostat will control the heat again. Then it occurred
to me in more terms that maybe the spare one won't work. I know myself
and I won't want to go back to my manual system. And even though $72
is a lot to spend on a furnace this old, it's better than rushing to buy
a whole new furnace at the most expensive time of the year. Plus I'd
have to clean the basement to give them room to work.

So if I put the spare in and it doesn't work, I wanted to know if one of
the ones online would work for me.



And since yesterday I found this for only 40
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honeywell-R8...em35d3f6 cf2c
It says Beckett but it seems to me it's an On/Off switch and all it has
to do is accept input from the thermostat, the CD sensor, and maybe
something else, and send output to the fan motors and the ignition
trasnformer, but that all the decisions, all the temperature settings,
are made by other things embedded in the furnace that wouldn't be
changed, and that just about any control unit will replace any other.
(I don't have a solenoid on my oil pump.)

And this one for $127 even has the same arrangement of connection screws
as mine does!
http://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-R818...ustomerReviews

For some reason, I've sort of given up plans that this would work, a
Beckett 7505A 0000 GeniSys
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beckett-7505...em19f402 066f
$72 + 10 shipping at this Amazaon store but only 52 dollars + ???
shipping at Newegg. (I thought they just sold computer stuff. )

Mark

**(I asked him if I could have the burner, and he asked the furnace guy,
and both said yes. I should have asked if it worked. Don't remember.
A couple years ago, I used its ignition tranformer, when I think mine
broke. (I generally have a hard time believeing things are broken. I
have an all-in-one printer here that someone gave me because all it did
was display a code, and I can't throw it away because I'm sure if it
sits in my house for long enough, it will start working. Maybe this
feeling comes from my fixing so many things, from the age of 8, without
knowing what I did. But my ignition transformer must have broken
because when I replaced it, the furnace worked again)


***The builder didn't take many shortcuts, cut he did on the water
pipes. The gravel may be too coarse, but for sure, he used the wrong
pipes. They should be somewhat flexible and they're not, so when a
truck drives over a place where the pipe is on the corner of some
gravel, the pipe breaks. It's happened about 6 times in the last 31
years. The water mains circle the n'hood, and there are 6 or 10 or so
valves and it was designed when there was a leak that only two valves
would be turned off so only 1/6 or 1/10th, 60 or 36 degrees of the
circle, would be without water, but for some reason the plumbers always
say they can't do that and everyone goes without water.

****It's a 4 hour drive back to NYC. I think the guests stayed until
Monday afternoon or night, but now I'm not sure how, if the electricty
failed on Sunday, as I recall. I know we ate our meals out, and it
might not have been that hot, and I guess we were out except when
sleeping. . I will have to call one of them to remind me. The
electricity failed because the transformer that supplies 8 townhouses
failed, probably because everyone was using AC.

I also had trouble with the reset button for a while. I thought it was
a relay, and I looked for a relay that fit the spot, one with a built-in
button like some do have. Couldn't find one, but eventually the device
starting working fine again and has done so for 25 more years. I'm
dumbfounded by this. But ever since these two control unit episodes, I
had my eyes open for a junk one. I missed two or three, that were by
the curb when I was going out and gone by the time I got home, but I got
one before I needed it.

On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 17:38:15 -0500, micky
wrote:

Yours is the simpler post to answer, so you're first.

On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 18:47:45 -0800 (PST), wrote:

What is going wrong with your control unit that makes you want to replace it

Late last winter, it stopped turning the furnace on. I took off the
cover and noted the relay and that when I pushed the relay down with a
wood stick, the furnace went on. Letting it run for an hour, or two if
it's cold, once a day, works fine except if the night is especially
cold. I have a whole spare burner, from when a neighbor replaced his
identical furnace, so I have a spare control unit, but I don't KNOW that
the control unit is good. Possibly, that's why he bought the new
furnace.**

They are pretty simple

Usual problems would be with the high voltage transformer which by the way can be very dangerous to work with and is not really part of the control unit

That seems to have failed just a couple years ago, and I replaced it
with my spare.

Other usual problem is with the flame sensing electric eye

I wipe that off whenever there is trouble, but it's never been dirty.
There is a spare one on the spare burner, if I need it.

The rest is a few relays and the 24 volt xformer

The 24volt xformer failed 6 weeks after I bought the house. The house
was only 4 years old. I had 3 guests from NYC. I was the first one
to have bought a house, so I felt like a big shot. Saturday at noon on
July 4th weekend, the AC failed, because the 24v transformer failed.
Sunday morning at 8 the water stopped.*** and Sunday at noon, ALL the
electricity failed. **** More below

What problem are you having

Nothing yet, but I had planned to replace the control unit today, or
soon, so the thermostat will control the heat again. Then it occurred
to me in more terms that maybe the spare one won't work. I know myself
and I won't want to go back to my manual system. And even though $72
is a lot to spend on a furnace this old, it's better than rushing to buy
a whole new furnace at the most expensive time of the year. Plus I'd
have to clean the basement to give them room to work.

So if I put the spare in and it doesn't work, I wanted to know if one of
the ones online would work for me.



And since yesterday I found this for only 40
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honeywell-R8...em35d3f6 cf2c
It says Beckett but it seems to me it's an On/Off switch and all it has
to do is accept input from the thermostat, the CD sensor, and maybe
something else, and send output to the fan motors and the ignition
trasnformer, but that all the decisions, all the temperature settings,
are made by other things embedded in the furnace that wouldn't be
changed, and that just about any control unit will replace any other.
(I don't have a solenoid on my oil pump.)

And this one for $127 even has the same arrangement of connection screws
as mine does!
http://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-R818...ustomerReviews

For some reason, I've sort of given up plans that this would work, a
Beckett 7505A 0000 GeniSys
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beckett-7505...em19f402 066f
$72 + 10 shipping at this Amazaon store but only 52 dollars + ???
shipping at Newegg. (I thought they just sold computer stuff. )

Mark

**(I asked him if I could have the burner, and he asked the furnace guy,
and both said yes. I should have asked if it worked. Don't remember.
A couple years ago, I used its ignition tranformer, when I think mine
broke. (I generally have a hard time believeing things are broken. I
have an all-in-one printer here that someone gave me because all it did
was display a code, and I can't throw it away because I'm sure if it
sits in my house for long enough, it will start working. Maybe this
feeling comes from my fixing so many things, from the age of 8, without
knowing what I did. But my ignition transformer must have broken
because when I replaced it, the furnace worked again)


***The builder didn't take many shortcuts, cut he did on the water
pipes. The gravel may be too coarse, but for sure, he used the wrong
pipes. They should be somewhat flexible and they're not, so when a
truck drives over a place where the pipe is on the corner of some
gravel, the pipe breaks. It's happened about 6 times in the last 31
years. The water mains circle the n'hood, and there are 6 or 10 or so
valves and it was designed when there was a leak that only two valves
would be turned off so only 1/6 or 1/10th, 60 or 36 degrees of the
circle, would be without water, but for some reason the plumbers always
say they can't do that and everyone goes without water.

****It's a 4 hour drive back to NYC. I think the guests stayed until
Monday afternoon or night, but now I'm not sure how, if the electricty
failed on Sunday, as I recall. I know we ate our meals out, and it
might not have been that hot, and I guess we were out except when
sleeping. . I will have to call one of them to remind me. The
electricity failed because the transformer that supplies 8 townhouses
failed, probably because everyone was using AC.

I also had trouble with the reset button for a while. I thought it was
a relay, and I looked for a relay that fit the spot, one with a built-in
button like some do have. Couldn't find one, but eventually the device
starting working fine again and has done so for 25 more years. I'm
dumbfounded by this. But ever since these two control unit episodes, I
had my eyes open for a junk one. I missed two or three, that were by
the curb when I was going out and gone by the time I got home, but I got
one before I needed it.
You HAVE the spare control board. How hard can it be to swap it in
and see if it works? If it does work, Hakuna Matata.

If it doesn't work you are no further behind and you can start looking
for a new board.

On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 19:27:23 -0500, wrote:


I also had trouble with the reset button for a while. I thought it was
a relay, and I looked for a relay that fit the spot, one with a built-in
button like some do have. Couldn't find one, but eventually the device
starting working fine again and has done so for 25 more years. I'm
dumbfounded by this. But ever since these two control unit episodes, I
had my eyes open for a junk one. I missed two or three, that were by
the curb when I was going out and gone by the time I got home, but I got
one before I needed it.
You HAVE the spare control board. How hard can it be to swap it in
and see if it works? If it does work, Hakuna Matata.

If it doesn't work you are no further behind and you can start looking
for a new board.

Well it's not just the question as I asked it.

It probably will work, but I'd like to understand the difference from
one control panel to the next. It seems to me that they are basically
the same.

Now some burner oil pumps have solenoids, and they need a control unit
that is set up for that, but those control units are still backwards
compatible.

And I gather that some control units delay oil spray until they sense
the ignition spark. That helps prevent unburned oil in the bottom of
the firebox. Even though my furnace wasn't built that way, it might
work with mine, but it doesn't matter since none of the units I've seen
for sale have that delay feature.

But I can see why the question looked purposeless. Sorry.

micky wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 19:27:23 -0500, wrote:


I also had trouble with the reset button for a while. I thought it was
a relay, and I looked for a relay that fit the spot, one with a built-in
button like some do have. Couldn't find one, but eventually the device
starting working fine again and has done so for 25 more years. I'm
dumbfounded by this. But ever since these two control unit episodes, I
had my eyes open for a junk one. I missed two or three, that were by
the curb when I was going out and gone by the time I got home, but I got
one before I needed it.
You HAVE the spare control board. How hard can it be to swap it in
and see if it works? If it does work, Hakuna Matata.

If it doesn't work you are no further behind and you can start looking
for a new board.

Well it's not just the question as I asked it.

It probably will work, but I'd like to understand the difference from
one control panel to the next. It seems to me that they are basically
the same.

Now some burner oil pumps have solenoids, and they need a control unit
that is set up for that, but those control units are still backwards
compatible.

And I gather that some control units delay oil spray until they sense
the ignition spark. That helps prevent unburned oil in the bottom of
the firebox. Even though my furnace wasn't built that way, it might
work with mine, but it doesn't matter since none of the units I've seen
for sale have that delay feature.

But I can see why the question looked purposeless. Sorry.

Hmmm,
While asking all these questions and not trying any thing how could
you learn things? Sorry I am unable to help you, I never had oil burning
furnace. Cold? We just had almost 2 weeks long minus 20C weather with
snow. Are you this cold? Today it is normal, minus 4C.

On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 18:47:11 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

micky wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 19:27:23 -0500, wrote:


I also had trouble with the reset button for a while. I thought it was
a relay, and I looked for a relay that fit the spot, one with a built-in
button like some do have. Couldn't find one, but eventually the device
starting working fine again and has done so for 25 more years. I'm
dumbfounded by this. But ever since these two control unit episodes, I
had my eyes open for a junk one. I missed two or three, that were by
the curb when I was going out and gone by the time I got home, but I got
one before I needed it.
You HAVE the spare control board. How hard can it be to swap it in
and see if it works? If it does work, Hakuna Matata.

If it doesn't work you are no further behind and you can start looking
for a new board.

Well it's not just the question as I asked it.

It probably will work, but I'd like to understand the difference from
one control panel to the next. It seems to me that they are basically
the same.

Now some burner oil pumps have solenoids, and they need a control unit
that is set up for that, but those control units are still backwards
compatible.

And I gather that some control units delay oil spray until they sense
the ignition spark. That helps prevent unburned oil in the bottom of
the firebox. Even though my furnace wasn't built that way, it might
work with mine, but it doesn't matter since none of the units I've seen
for sale have that delay feature.

But I can see why the question looked purposeless. Sorry.

Hmmm,
While asking all these questions and not trying any thing how could
you learn things?

Well I'm not going to buy these things at 72 or 125 just to see if
they'll work.

Sorry I am unable to help you, I never had oil burning
furnace. Cold? We just had almost 2 weeks long minus 20C weather with
snow. Are you this cold? Today it is normal, minus 4C.

That's 23^ US iiac. That's pretty cold for now. Later in the winter
it may seem warm.

The temp here at 9:30PM EST is 37, going down to... well it's going to
get warmer later, in preparation for tomorrow. an almost warm day except
it's going to rain all day.

That's something different in Centigrade. I guess it's 1/2 C

On Sunday, November 16, 2014 9:35:37 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
you learn things?

Well I'm not going to buy these things at 72 or 125 just to see if
they'll work.


Keep in mind if you buy them, if they are not the right part,
even if you can't return them, you can sell them on Ebay. Some of
them are used on Ebay to begin with. I've done that with parts.
Sometimes I've even made money by selling it later for more than
I paid for it.

On Mon, 17 Nov 2014 05:26:45 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, November 16, 2014 9:35:37 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
you learn things?

Well I'm not going to buy these things at 72 or 125 just to see if
they'll work.


Keep in mind if you buy them, if they are not the right part,
even if you can't return them, you can sell them on Ebay. Some of
them are used on Ebay to begin with. I've done that with parts.
Sometimes I've even made money by selling it later for more than
I paid for it.

True, but I'll never get around to doing that. I have things of my own
now I could sell on Ebay. It's the boxing and wrapping that slows me
down. Maybe the UPS store would do that?

After I posted, I accidentally came across the very same control unit I
have, rebuilt, for $65,

This whole thread isn't just for me, but for my neighbor who seems to
have less money than I do. He told me 9 days ago that he was out of
oil until last Thursday and was depending on room heaters, and that his
(DSL?) modem broke and he was looking for another one and using his
phone for email. And that he didn't want to pay the (rather high,
iirc**) charge the oil guy wanted for yearly maintenance on the furnace
even though he thought the electrodes were bad and last it was running,
he never turned it off because it he thought it woudln't restart (Yes, a
misunderstanding, and I asked if he didn't get too hot but he was on to
another subject. .)

And for all the things he needs, he expresses interest in parts from my
spare burner. OTOH, when he borrowed my bathtub stem socket, it took 3
months and 3 reminders for him to return it, and I'm not willing to give
or lend him any spare parts on the theory he'll replace them before or
even when I need them. But I am willing to do online research, find
parts, find how things work, etc.



**Though the oil price was only $2.00 a gallon. My tank is full or
maybe I'd buy some.

On Monday, November 17, 2014 1:13:01 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Mon, 17 Nov 2014 05:26:45 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, November 16, 2014 9:35:37 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
you learn things?

Well I'm not going to buy these things at 72 or 125 just to see if
they'll work.


Keep in mind if you buy them, if they are not the right part,
even if you can't return them, you can sell them on Ebay. Some of
them are used on Ebay to begin with. I've done that with parts.
Sometimes I've even made money by selling it later for more than
I paid for it.

True, but I'll never get around to doing that. I have things of my own
now I could sell on Ebay. It's the boxing and wrapping that slows me
down. Maybe the UPS store would do that?


They will, but they charge an arm and a leg. I went in there one day a
few years ago. I needed a box for something. The closest thing they had
was a box intended to ship a notebook PC. It was a box with some foam.
I think they wanted ~$35 for just the box. I think they charge a lot more
that the UPS terminal to ship stuff too. Which is why I either use USPS
or go to the UPS terminal.


After I posted, I accidentally came across the very same control unit I
have, rebuilt, for $65,

This whole thread isn't just for me, but for my neighbor who seems to
have less money than I do. He told me 9 days ago that he was out of
oil until last Thursday and was depending on room heaters, and that his
(DSL?) modem broke and he was looking for another one and using his
phone for email. And that he didn't want to pay the (rather high,
iirc**) charge the oil guy wanted for yearly maintenance on the furnace
even though he thought the electrodes were bad and last it was running,
he never turned it off because it he thought it woudln't restart (Yes, a
misunderstanding, and I asked if he didn't get too hot but he was on to
another subject. .)


That doesn't compute. I mean how long could he possibly leave it on?
I guess you could heat the house up an extra 5 degrees. I can see doing
that on an emergency basis. But overall, it would seem it wouldn't be
too long before the extra oil cost as much as the repair. And even then,
it only reduces the number of start-ups.





And for all the things he needs, he expresses interest in parts from my
spare burner. OTOH, when he borrowed my bathtub stem socket, it took 3
months and 3 reminders for him to return it, and I'm not willing to give
or lend him any spare parts on the theory he'll replace them before or
even when I need them. But I am willing to do online research, find
parts, find how things work, etc.



**Though the oil price was only $2.00 a gallon. My tank is full or
maybe I'd buy some.

At least it's finally coming down a bit and in time for winter.

On 11/17/2014 1:12 PM, micky wrote:
And for all the things he needs, he expresses interest in parts from my
spare burner. OTOH, when he borrowed my bathtub stem socket, it took 3
months and 3 reminders for him to return it, and I'm not willing to give
or lend him any spare parts on the theory he'll replace them before or
even when I need them. But I am willing to do online research, find
parts, find how things work, etc.


I've been guilty now and again of being too
generous with parts and time and such. Some
folks never quite figure out how to take care
of self.


-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

well i guess the jist of what you want is to have a ready to go wroking spare controller.

so either way, if you get one that is not an exaxt replacement, or you get a used one and don't KNOW if it works, the only way to know for sure if it will work is to try it.

But since it is cold out now, I would suggest you follow the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it rule"

Maybe watch on ebay and try to buy some used controller that is a close match to yours, then in the SPRING try it out. If it doesn't work or you have problems getting it all back toether, it won't be an emergency. With a few spare controllers you can swap parts etc to get two working ones.

I wouldn't mess with a working furnace at this time of the seasons. Wait till spring. Collect your parts now.

Mark

On Mon, 17 Nov 2014 14:56:20 -0800 (PST), wrote:

well i guess the jist of what you want is to have a ready to go wroking spare controller.

so either way, if you get one that is not an exaxt replacement, or you get a used one and don't KNOW if it works, the only way to know for sure if it will work is to try it.

But since it is cold out now, I would suggest you follow the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it rule"

Maybe watch on ebay and try to buy some used controller that is a close match to yours, then in the SPRING try it out. If it doesn't work or you have problems getting it all back toether, it won't be an emergency. With a few spare controllers you can swap parts etc to get two working ones.

I wouldn't mess with a working furnace at this time of the seasons. Wait till spring. Collect your parts now.

Mark

This was supposed to have been done in the summer. But as early as July
I realized I had too much outside work to do to finish that before
winter. Most of my improvements to my car never got started.

On Mon, 17 Nov 2014 13:46:44 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:


This whole thread isn't just for me, but for my neighbor who seems to
have less money than I do. He told me 9 days ago that he was out of
oil until last Thursday and was depending on room heaters, and that his
(DSL?) modem broke and he was looking for another one and using his
phone for email. And that he didn't want to pay the (rather high,
iirc**) charge the oil guy wanted for yearly maintenance on the furnace
even though he thought the electrodes were bad and last it was running,
he never turned it off because it he thought it woudln't restart (Yes, a
misunderstanding, and I asked if he didn't get too hot but he was on to
another subject. .)


That doesn't compute. I mean how long could he possibly leave it on?

I wondered about that too, but I don't feel he's conducive to follow-up
questions, or I asked one and got no answer.

I guess you could heat the house up an extra 5 degrees. I can see doing
that on an emergency basis. But overall, it would seem it wouldn't be
too long before the extra oil cost as much as the repair. And even then,
it only reduces the number of start-ups.

I haven't heard from him since he got the oil delivered**, except the
night before he told me he must not have been out of oil because he
turned the furnace on and it ran. This also means it started by itself,
so he doesn't need electrodes, at least not totally, and they don't need
that much adjustment (he said he'd done that, but I was going to look at
them.) and he doesn't need an ignition transformer, which I think he had
expressed interest in.

**That's another annying thing. He told me he wanted me to come over
after the oil came but never called to say, Forget it. That's the
second, maybe third time. So he doesn't get parts, and the second time
I lent him the bathtub socket, I said if it's not back by tomorrow (the
time he had said) I'm going to but a set at HD and you'll owe me $22.
That time he returned the tool in 45 minutes. So maybe things will
work out!

One thing he didn't know, and people used to gas furnaces and propane
torches wouldnt' know is that the ignition in an oil furnace fires all
the time the furnace is running.


And for all the things he needs, he expresses interest in parts from my
spare burner. OTOH, when he borrowed my bathtub stem socket, it took 3
months and 3 reminders for him to return it, and I'm not willing to give
or lend him any spare parts on the theory he'll replace them before or
even when I need them. But I am willing to do online research, find
parts, find how things work, etc.

**Though the oil price was only $2.00 a gallon. My tank is full or
maybe I'd buy some.

At least it's finally coming down a bit and in time for winter.

Yes, I don't know what my regular supplier is charging, but I'm sure
it's less than before.

On Monday, November 17, 2014 7:56:55 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Mon, 17 Nov 2014 13:46:44 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:


This whole thread isn't just for me, but for my neighbor who seems to
have less money than I do. He told me 9 days ago that he was out of
oil until last Thursday and was depending on room heaters, and that his
(DSL?) modem broke and he was looking for another one and using his
phone for email. And that he didn't want to pay the (rather high,
iirc**) charge the oil guy wanted for yearly maintenance on the furnace
even though he thought the electrodes were bad and last it was running,
he never turned it off because it he thought it woudln't restart (Yes, a
misunderstanding, and I asked if he didn't get too hot but he was on to
another subject. .)


That doesn't compute. I mean how long could he possibly leave it on?

I wondered about that too, but I don't feel he's conducive to follow-up
questions, or I asked one and got no answer.

I guess you could heat the house up an extra 5 degrees. I can see doing
that on an emergency basis. But overall, it would seem it wouldn't be
too long before the extra oil cost as much as the repair. And even then,
it only reduces the number of start-ups.

I haven't heard from him since he got the oil delivered**, except the
night before he told me he must not have been out of oil because he
turned the furnace on and it ran. This also means it started by itself,
so he doesn't need electrodes, at least not totally, and they don't need
that much adjustment (he said he'd done that, but I was going to look at
them.) and he doesn't need an ignition transformer, which I think he had
expressed interest in.



It sounds like he's letting the tank go empty, or almost empty. IMO,
that may have more to do with his problems than electrodes. An empty
tank, quickly filled, then the furnace started, probably results in a lot
more crap, water, etc being drawn into the furnace. You also said your
furnace doesn't have a filter, does his?

Also where the tank is located makes a difference. In my experience,
furnaces with underground tanks, either buried outside or in a basement,
are less problem prone than ones with a 275 gallon tank sitting outside.
The temp cycling leads to more condensation.

On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 15:02:59 -0500, micky
wrote:

A friend in a nearby townhouse with the same furnace thinks his furnace
### would fire better with new electrodes. Ours are curved but online
we can only find straight. Does it matter, as long as the tips end up
where the curved tips do? And can the
electrodes be bad, anyhow? They don't seem any shorter now than they
were 10 years ago, and even if they're shorter, can't they be bent
closer? I have the diagram that gives distances. Seems to me it's
broken insulators that wouldl be the problem. But to buy new
insulators, no one gives the diameter, only that they're Beckett, and
two reviews of Amazon-sold electrodes said they didn't fit. (Didn't
they mean the insulators didn't fit??)


NEW nice pointy electrodes in my burner made a big differance in how
it lights and fires. Very difficult to bend in my experience you
loosen the clamp and turn them to adjust the distance.

Got mine from Keith supply online.

Remove 333 to reply.
Randy

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

On Tue, 18 Nov 2014 04:51:50 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, November 17, 2014 7:56:55 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Mon, 17 Nov 2014 13:46:44 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:


This whole thread isn't just for me, but for my neighbor who seems to
have less money than I do. He told me 9 days ago that he was out of
oil until last Thursday and was depending on room heaters, and that his
(DSL?) modem broke and he was looking for another one and using his
phone for email. And that he didn't want to pay the (rather high,
iirc**) charge the oil guy wanted for yearly maintenance on the furnace
even though he thought the electrodes were bad and last it was running,
he never turned it off because it he thought it woudln't restart (Yes, a
misunderstanding, and I asked if he didn't get too hot but he was on to
another subject. .)


That doesn't compute. I mean how long could he possibly leave it on?

I wondered about that too, but I don't feel he's conducive to follow-up
questions, or I asked one and got no answer.

I guess you could heat the house up an extra 5 degrees. I can see doing
that on an emergency basis. But overall, it would seem it wouldn't be
too long before the extra oil cost as much as the repair. And even then,
it only reduces the number of start-ups.

I haven't heard from him since he got the oil delivered**, except the
night before he told me he must not have been out of oil because he
turned the furnace on and it ran. This also means it started by itself,
so he doesn't need electrodes, at least not totally, and they don't need
that much adjustment (he said he'd done that, but I was going to look at
them.) and he doesn't need an ignition transformer, which I think he had
expressed interest in.

Interest in my spare transformer, when I hadn't said I'd used it
already.



It sounds like he's letting the tank go empty, or almost empty. IMO,

I think he's short of money. He works a full and a part time job, and
his wife works full time, but there are many ways to run out of money.

He said his desktop computer isn't connected to the Net becaue he needs
a modem (and he reads his email, etc. on his phone) and I asked, Do you
have DSL, dial-up, and I got the impression it's DSL, so I said, if your
modem is broken, Verizon will give you a new one for free. But he
didn't reply.

that may have more to do with his problems than electrodes. An empty
tank, quickly filled, then the furnace started, probably results in a lot
more crap, water, etc being drawn into the furnace. You also said your
furnace doesn't have a filter, does his?

He said it did. I figure it was added by a maintenance or repair man
after the house was built. OTOH, I had yearly maintenance for a long
time and no one suggested it to me. Maybe that's because I had more
junk in the laundry room, and the guys couldn't just bend down and look
under the tank and see that there was no filter. OT3H, they could
certainly see there was no filter at the furnace, which is where the
drawings always show them to be.

Also where the tank is located makes a difference. In my experience,
furnaces with underground tanks, either buried outside or in a basement,
are less problem prone than ones with a 275 gallon tank sitting outside.
The temp cycling leads to more condensation.

I've heard that. I'm glad that ours are in our basements.

On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 19:50:11 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Sorry it took so long to reply.

On 11/15/2014 6:25 PM, trader_4 wrote:

CY: Look on the web for pictures, that might give
you indication. Riellow is one other brand to
compare.



I'd be surprised if a Carrier furnace had anything but a Carrier
burner, assuming it's original.


Carrier uses both Beckett and Riello burners. Never made their own to
my knowledge

Thanks.

My oil tube and eletrode assembly has two triangular spikes coming out
of the otherwise circular plate. Do you know if Riello has that too?

I looked all over the web for Riello, I didn't see any parts that looked
like mine, except the nozzles, but I didn't see many pictures of the
parts I know well, like the nozzle assembly.

Also, most of the Riello were painted red. The one image under Riello
that looked familar when traced to the page it came from turned out to
be Beckett after all. I think I have a Beckett.




What does "fire better" mean? If it lights up reliably, doesn't go bang,
then the electrodes are working OK.

Yes. Here is tips on how to set them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6i2x08oI4o

Nothing in here about electroides, but interesting still.

IIunderestoodC, he tested the transformer by opening it up and then he
had about 45 seconds before the safety swtich shut things down to check
the spark, and it went across to the screwdriver (which rested on the
other HV terminal ) It didnt' take him 45 seconds though, only 10. He
didnt' seem to worry about the 10 seconds of oil spray that would end in
the bottom of the firebox. ??

I hadn't thought of testing this way. When I replaced my ign. xformer,
i only guessed that it was bad since the furnace wasn't working.


Given all the uncertainties and unknowns, if Micky wants to keep this
one going, the best thing may be to have it serviced by a pro, get his
opinion on the options to replace the control unit, find out what else
is wrong with it, etc. Probably better
to pay a couple hundred bucks now, instead of having no heat when in
the middle of winter.


Sometimes paying a pro is the cheapest way to get it done. I'm all for
saving money and DIY but we all have limits to our knowledge and ability.

That's so true.

There are usually some good rebates and incentives to modernize too I
got a Fed and a State rebate and the state offered 0% financing on my
system. Savings in oil cost paid for the payments so in a way it was a
"free" upgrade.

Now is just not a good time to get a new furnace.

On Tue, 18 Nov 2014 09:01:18 -0500, Randy333
wrote:

On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 15:02:59 -0500, micky
wrote:

A friend in a nearby townhouse with the same furnace thinks his furnace
### would fire better with new electrodes. Ours are curved but online
we can only find straight. Does it matter, as long as the tips end up
where the curved tips do? And can the
electrodes be bad, anyhow? They don't seem any shorter now than they
were 10 years ago, and even if they're shorter, can't they be bent
closer? I have the diagram that gives distances. Seems to me it's
broken insulators that wouldl be the problem. But to buy new
insulators, no one gives the diameter, only that they're Beckett, and
two reviews of Amazon-sold electrodes said they didn't fit. (Didn't
they mean the insulators didn't fit??)


NEW nice pointy electrodes in my burner made a big differance in how
it lights and fires.

No kidding! Makes sense now that you've said it. Thanks.

I know about lightning rods and that they need points. I've read other
stuff about points. How could I not notice that I need points.

.....I just looked at the ones I took out a couple years ago. No points
at all!! They're like a round pencil that has never been sharpened.
The closest thing to a point is where the end meets the side!

....Now that I think about it, I might not have needed the spare ignition
transformer. Maybe the old one would have worked if I'd had points!!
(I'm glad i saved it.)

Very difficult to bend in my experience you

I did notice that, But for some reason, I thought either I had bent
them enough (when perhaps I hadn't bent them at all) or that they didn't
need bendnig after all. I figured the next time I'd put them in the
vice to bend them. And I could file points on them too.

loosen the clamp and turn them to adjust the distance.

Got mine from Keith supply online.

Didn't know about them. This is very good, the first set of electrodes
with the other end looking like mine (flat metal tabs). Now it's easy
enough to transfer that part off the old electrodes, but it's still
feels good to find someone who sells just what I use. More important,
unlike the other (very few) electrode listings I've seen, this site
gives the dimensions for the porcelain insulators. So I don't have to
just hope they'll be like mine. And the insulator diameters are not all
the same, 9/16, 7/16, and 1/2.
..... Mine are 1/2".

Something like http://keithspecialty.com/k/66-091.htmI Keith's lists
3 curved ones, like mine**, though all different lengths, none of which
are the same as either of mine. I guess it matters most where the tips
end up. **Although now I notice that in the owners manual that came
with the furnace, the diagram about measurements, the electrodes are not
curved, they're bent. This is how I got the idea that all that matters
is where the tips end up! ???

Flat bus bars are sold separately.

And though this supplier is near nothing, 20 miles from the closest
towns, which are Indiana and Punxatawny, and 50 miles from Johnstown and
Altoona, they're only 200 miles from me, so shipping will probably be
pretty quick, not that I'm in a hurry this time.

Thanks again.

Remove 333 to reply.
Randy

On 11/19/2014 11:31 AM, micky wrote:
On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 19:50:11 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Sorry it took so long to reply.

On 11/15/2014 6:25 PM, trader_4 wrote:

CY: Look on the web for pictures, that might give
you indication. Riello is one other brand to
compare.


Carrier uses both Beckett and Riello burners. Never made their own to
my knowledge

Thanks.

My oil tube and eletrode assembly has two triangular spikes coming out
of the otherwise circular plate. Do you know if Riello has that too?

I looked all over the web for Riello, I didn't see any parts that looked
like mine, except the nozzles, but I didn't see many pictures of the
parts I know well, like the nozzle assembly.

Also, most of the Riello were painted red. The one image under Riello
that looked familar when traced to the page it came from turned out to
be Beckett after all. I think I have a Beckett.


Some years ago, I did take two courses in oil burner
service. I've done little with that knowledge, and
it's mostly all forgotten. Do wish I could be more
assistance.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Wednesday, November 19, 2014 3:24:32 PM UTC-6, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Some years ago, I did take two courses in oil burner
service. I've done little with that knowledge, and
it's mostly all forgotten. Do wish I could be more
assistance.

....a pointless response...are you looking for pity?

On Wed, 19 Nov 2014 10:44:16 -0500, micky
wrote:

On Tue, 18 Nov 2014 04:51:50 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, November 17, 2014 7:56:55 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Mon, 17 Nov 2014 13:46:44 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:


This whole thread isn't just for me, but for my neighbor who seems to
have less money than I do. He told me 9 days ago that he was out of
oil until last Thursday and was depending on room heaters, and that his
(DSL?) modem broke and he was looking for another one and using his
phone for email. And that he didn't want to pay the (rather high,
iirc**) charge the oil guy wanted for yearly maintenance on the furnace
even though he thought the electrodes were bad and last it was running,
he never turned it off because it he thought it woudln't restart (Yes, a
misunderstanding, and I asked if he didn't get too hot but he was on to
another subject. .)


That doesn't compute. I mean how long could he possibly leave it on?

I wondered about that too, but I don't feel he's conducive to follow-up
questions, or I asked one and got no answer.

I guess you could heat the house up an extra 5 degrees. I can see doing
that on an emergency basis. But overall, it would seem it wouldn't be
too long before the extra oil cost as much as the repair. And even then,
it only reduces the number of start-ups.

I haven't heard from him since he got the oil delivered**, except the
night before he told me he must not have been out of oil because he
turned the furnace on and it ran. This also means it started by itself,
so he doesn't need electrodes, at least not totally, and they don't need
that much adjustment (he said he'd done that, but I was going to look at
them.) and he doesn't need an ignition transformer, which I think he had
expressed interest in.

Interest in my spare transformer, when I hadn't said I'd used it
already.



It sounds like he's letting the tank go empty, or almost empty. IMO,

I think he's short of money. He works a full and a part time job, and
his wife works full time, but there are many ways to run out of money.

He said his desktop computer isn't connected to the Net becaue he needs
a modem (and he reads his email, etc. on his phone) and I asked, Do you
have DSL, dial-up, and I got the impression it's DSL, so I said, if your
modem is broken, Verizon will give you a new one for free. But he
didn't reply.

that may have more to do with his problems than electrodes. An empty
tank, quickly filled, then the furnace started, probably results in a lot
more crap, water, etc being drawn into the furnace. You also said your
furnace doesn't have a filter, does his?

He said it did. I figure it was added by a maintenance or repair man
after the house was built. OTOH, I had yearly maintenance for a long
time and no one suggested it to me. Maybe that's because I had more
junk in the laundry room, and the guys couldn't just bend down and look
under the tank and see that there was no filter. OT3H, they could
certainly see there was no filter at the furnace, which is where the
drawings always show them to be.

Also where the tank is located makes a difference. In my experience,
furnaces with underground tanks, either buried outside or in a basement,
are less problem prone than ones with a 275 gallon tank sitting outside.
The temp cycling leads to more condensation.

I've heard that. I'm glad that ours are in our basements.

Until the stinking thing springs a leak -----. And virtually every
fuel oil filter I've ever seen was right at the outlet of the tank.

On Wednesday, November 19, 2014 9:09:26 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wed, 19 Nov 2014 10:44:16 -0500, micky
wrote:

On Tue, 18 Nov 2014 04:51:50 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, November 17, 2014 7:56:55 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Mon, 17 Nov 2014 13:46:44 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:


This whole thread isn't just for me, but for my neighbor who seems to
have less money than I do. He told me 9 days ago that he was out of
oil until last Thursday and was depending on room heaters, and that his
(DSL?) modem broke and he was looking for another one and using his
phone for email. And that he didn't want to pay the (rather high,
iirc**) charge the oil guy wanted for yearly maintenance on the furnace
even though he thought the electrodes were bad and last it was running,
he never turned it off because it he thought it woudln't restart (Yes, a
misunderstanding, and I asked if he didn't get too hot but he was on to
another subject. .)


That doesn't compute. I mean how long could he possibly leave it on?

I wondered about that too, but I don't feel he's conducive to follow-up
questions, or I asked one and got no answer.

I guess you could heat the house up an extra 5 degrees. I can see doing
that on an emergency basis. But overall, it would seem it wouldn't be
too long before the extra oil cost as much as the repair. And even then,
it only reduces the number of start-ups.

I haven't heard from him since he got the oil delivered**, except the
night before he told me he must not have been out of oil because he
turned the furnace on and it ran. This also means it started by itself,
so he doesn't need electrodes, at least not totally, and they don't need
that much adjustment (he said he'd done that, but I was going to look at
them.) and he doesn't need an ignition transformer, which I think he had
expressed interest in.

Interest in my spare transformer, when I hadn't said I'd used it
already.



It sounds like he's letting the tank go empty, or almost empty. IMO,

I think he's short of money. He works a full and a part time job, and
his wife works full time, but there are many ways to run out of money.

He said his desktop computer isn't connected to the Net becaue he needs
a modem (and he reads his email, etc. on his phone) and I asked, Do you
have DSL, dial-up, and I got the impression it's DSL, so I said, if your
modem is broken, Verizon will give you a new one for free. But he
didn't reply.

that may have more to do with his problems than electrodes. An empty
tank, quickly filled, then the furnace started, probably results in a lot
more crap, water, etc being drawn into the furnace. You also said your
furnace doesn't have a filter, does his?

He said it did. I figure it was added by a maintenance or repair man
after the house was built. OTOH, I had yearly maintenance for a long
time and no one suggested it to me. Maybe that's because I had more
junk in the laundry room, and the guys couldn't just bend down and look
under the tank and see that there was no filter. OT3H, they could
certainly see there was no filter at the furnace, which is where the
drawings always show them to be.

Also where the tank is located makes a difference. In my experience,
furnaces with underground tanks, either buried outside or in a basement,
are less problem prone than ones with a 275 gallon tank sitting outside.
The temp cycling leads to more condensation.

I've heard that. I'm glad that ours are in our basements.

Until the stinking thing springs a leak -----. And virtually every
fuel oil filter I've ever seen was right at the outlet of the tank.

Even then you're probably better off. I've never heard of a tank suddenly
bursting wide open. Typically they start with a small leak. I'd rather
have a small leak in a basement where I'll see and smell it and be able
to deal with it before big trouble results. With it buried, you typically
don't find the leak until there is massive ground contamination and a
$50K bill.

On Tue, 18 Nov 2014 09:01:18 -0500, Randy333
wrote:

On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 15:02:59 -0500, micky
wrote:

A friend in a nearby townhouse with the same furnace thinks his furnace
### would fire better with new electrodes. Ours are curved but online
we can only find straight. Does it matter, as long as the tips end up
where the curved tips do? And can the
electrodes be bad, anyhow? They don't seem any shorter now than they
were 10 years ago, and even if they're shorter, can't they be bent
closer? I have the diagram that gives distances. Seems to me it's
broken insulators that wouldl be the problem. But to buy new
insulators, no one gives the diameter, only that they're Beckett, and
two reviews of Amazon-sold electrodes said they didn't fit. (Didn't
they mean the insulators didn't fit??)

Posted and mailed because I'm correcting my mistake of yesterday.


NEW nice pointy electrodes in my burner made a big differance in how

Today I called Keith Supply and he was very nice, answered 2 or 3
questions, and he told me that not all electrodes are pointy. at all.

So all my excitement over pointiness yesterday was, it seems, for
nothing. (In the meantime, I sharpened one of 4 spare electrodes to a
point, so now it's a tiny bit shorter than it was, I think.)

But thanks a lot for the referral. I'm going to order about 20
dollars worth of stuff from him, and maybe more later. My new furnace
will be oil too.


While I"m here,
I put my stick on the control-until relay pointed end down this time,
and it seems to have found the sweet spot. That is, the furnace is
running normally for the past 26 hours.

I'd forgotten since last march but the problem is that the relay
energizes but the winding or the current through it isn't strong enough
to pull the armature down. So I would push it down with the stick (a
stake pounded into the ground used for an advertising sign illegally on
public property.) and when the house was hot enough, I'd remove the
stake.

I seem to have put the stake so it just makes up for the weakness in the
electro-magnet.




it lights and fires. Very difficult to bend in my experience you
loosen the clamp and turn them to adjust the distance.

Got mine from Keith supply online.

Remove 333 to reply.
Randy

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

On Thursday, November 20, 2014 9:53:21 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Tue, 18 Nov 2014 09:01:18 -0500, Randy333
wrote:

On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 15:02:59 -0500, micky
wrote:

A friend in a nearby townhouse with the same furnace thinks his furnace
### would fire better with new electrodes. Ours are curved but online
we can only find straight. Does it matter, as long as the tips end up
where the curved tips do? And can the
electrodes be bad, anyhow? They don't seem any shorter now than they
were 10 years ago, and even if they're shorter, can't they be bent
closer? I have the diagram that gives distances. Seems to me it's
broken insulators that wouldl be the problem. But to buy new
insulators, no one gives the diameter, only that they're Beckett, and
two reviews of Amazon-sold electrodes said they didn't fit. (Didn't
they mean the insulators didn't fit??)

Posted and mailed because I'm correcting my mistake of yesterday.


NEW nice pointy electrodes in my burner made a big differance in how

Today I called Keith Supply and he was very nice, answered 2 or 3
questions, and he told me that not all electrodes are pointy. at all.

So all my excitement over pointiness yesterday was, it seems, for
nothing. (In the meantime, I sharpened one of 4 spare electrodes to a
point, so now it's a tiny bit shorter than it was, I think.)

But thanks a lot for the referral. I'm going to order about 20
dollars worth of stuff from him, and maybe more later. My new furnace
will be oil too.


While I"m here,
I put my stick on the control-until relay pointed end down this time,
and it seems to have found the sweet spot. That is, the furnace is
running normally for the past 26 hours.

I'd forgotten since last march but the problem is that the relay
energizes but the winding or the current through it isn't strong enough
to pull the armature down. So I would push it down with the stick (a
stake pounded into the ground used for an advertising sign illegally on
public property.) and when the house was hot enough, I'd remove the
stake.

I seem to have put the stake so it just makes up for the weakness in the
electro-magnet.



It's probably been said before and it should be very obvious, but just
for the record, what you're doing is bypassing an important safety system
on a malfunctioning oil furnace that you're fiddling with. A furnace
that apparently has multiple problems.
And you're not doing it for 5 mins to test, while you're standing there
watching it, you're apparently doing it for
26 hours, during which time the furnace shuts down, then restarts, etc. Presumably you and possibly others are even asleep while this is going on.
It sounds like a possible very bad event waiting to happen.

On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 15:02:59 -0500, micky
wrote:


On the left side of the burner, where the oil comes in, as part of the
pump, I think they have something they call an oil filter. It's only 2

My memory was bad. They call it an oil strainer, not an oil filter.

They sell replacement strainers for some furnaces, depending on the oil
pump attached to the burner, that look like little rat-wheels, cylinders
less than an inch high, with a diameter about 2 nches, made of some
strainer material,

http://keithspecialty.com/k/66-340.htm or
http://keithspecialty.com/k/66-342.htm

but they don't look like anything in my furnace. I suspect some
so-called technician removed the strainer and didn't replace it either
before I bought the house, or maybe even almost right in front of me
without telling me. Those guys tick me off.

pieces of metal. How much filtering can that do? Does it just chop up
clumps of oil??? Hard to believe there are clumps, and hard to believe
chopping them up would make them small enough not to clog the nozzle,
but that's the only thing I can think of. I looked into this "filter"
20 years ago, and saw no sign of clumps, only a light coating of oil.

On Fri, 21 Nov 2014 04:34:41 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, November 20, 2014 9:53:21 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Tue, 18 Nov 2014 09:01:18 -0500, Randy333
wrote:

On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 15:02:59 -0500, micky
wrote:

A friend in a nearby townhouse with the same furnace thinks his furnace
### would fire better with new electrodes. Ours are curved but online
we can only find straight. Does it matter, as long as the tips end up
where the curved tips do? And can the
electrodes be bad, anyhow? They don't seem any shorter now than they
were 10 years ago, and even if they're shorter, can't they be bent
closer? I have the diagram that gives distances. Seems to me it's
broken insulators that wouldl be the problem. But to buy new
insulators, no one gives the diameter, only that they're Beckett, and
two reviews of Amazon-sold electrodes said they didn't fit. (Didn't
they mean the insulators didn't fit??)

Posted and mailed because I'm correcting my mistake of yesterday.


NEW nice pointy electrodes in my burner made a big differance in how

Today I called Keith Supply and he was very nice, answered 2 or 3
questions, and he told me that not all electrodes are pointy. at all.

So all my excitement over pointiness yesterday was, it seems, for
nothing. (In the meantime, I sharpened one of 4 spare electrodes to a
point, so now it's a tiny bit shorter than it was, I think.)

But thanks a lot for the referral. I'm going to order about 20
dollars worth of stuff from him, and maybe more later. My new furnace
will be oil too.


While I"m here,
I put my stick on the control-until relay pointed end down this time,
and it seems to have found the sweet spot. That is, the furnace is
running normally for the past 26 hours.

I'd forgotten since last march but the problem is that the relay
energizes but the winding or the current through it isn't strong enough
to pull the armature down. So I would push it down with the stick (a
stake pounded into the ground used for an advertising sign illegally on
public property.) and when the house was hot enough, I'd remove the
stake.

I seem to have put the stake so it just makes up for the weakness in the
electro-magnet.



It's probably been said before and it should be very obvious, but just

No, it hasn't been. Thank you.

for the record, what you're doing is bypassing an important safety system
on a malfunctioning oil furnace that you're fiddling with. A furnace
that apparently has multiple problems.

No, it only has one problem. Failure to make heat when the thermostat
calls for it. (I had written "failure to respond to the thermostat"
but it does respond. It energizes the relay winding somewhat, just not
enough.)

If you read again the questions I started the thread with, they were
about planning ahead, understaning the past, and for the sake of my
friend with the same furnace.

And you're not doing it for 5 mins to test, while you're standing there
watching it, you're apparently doing it for
26 hours, during which time the furnace shuts down, then restarts, etc.

Oh, you're talking about the last 26 hours. I"m not bypassing any
safety systems now**. The relay is dependant on being energized by the
closing of the thermostat. And all the other parts like the safety
switch are at work too. All the stick does in this position is make up
for the weak relay winding.magnetism***, but the relay still only closes
when the winding is energized, and it opens when the winding isn't.

***(weak either because the winding is partially shorted -- which would
be easier to believe if the wire were finer -- or because some other
part is limiting the input to the relay winding.)

**I was bypassing the safety switch when I put the stick at the edge of
the relay armature, when the weight of the stick and its location with
maximum leverage was enough to hold the armature down no matter what.
But that I only did for an hour or two while I sat in the next room
working on the computer. When I would get noticeably warm, I'd turn it
off (remove the stick). I didn't go upstairs for fear I'd forget to go
back.

Presumably you and possibly others are even asleep while this is going on.

I'll check again but if there were others here, I would know about it.
;-)

It sounds like a possible very bad event waiting to happen.

If I die, I'll post about it. ..... Hmm. If I stop posting soon, you
can figure it killed me.

Thanks.

On Friday, November 21, 2014 9:06:25 PM UTC-6, micky wrote:

If you read again the questions I started the thread with, they were
about planning ahead, understaning the past, and for the sake of my
friend with the same furnace.

I'll check again but if there were others here, I would know about it.

If I die, I'll post about it. ..... Hmm. If I stop posting soon, you
can figure it killed me.

One can only hope! 8^)

No one can follow your blathering anyway...I've worked on a few oil furnaces, one was my own before we got NG here in the boonies. They have all had filters next to the furnace like this: http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2ecf6610.jpg

I've also seen dozens of basements with oil furnaces and the same filter set-up!

On Fri, 21 Nov 2014 20:31:54 -0800 (PST), bob_villa
wrote:

I've worked on a few oil furnace=
s, one was my own before we got NG here in the boonies. They have all had f=
ilters next to the furnace like this: http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x=
430/BenDarrenBach/Oil_fltr_zps2ecf6610.jpg

Yeah, I know what an oil filter looks like.

I've also seen dozens of basements with oil furnaces and the same filter se=
t-up!

That's why it's strange that I don't have one. And perhaps stranger
yet that it's never caused a problem.


Did you email me directly in the last week or two? I got an email
from "bob_villa", with a different email address, and I wondered later
if that were you, ??

Does the relay have enough pull to HOLD the contact but not pull it in?

Can you measure the voltage at the felay coil?
Is it AC Or DC at the telay, make sure you use the correct meter.
I would guess it is AC

If you have other controllers to canabalize, can you replace the relay?
Mark

On Sun, 23 Nov 2014 07:18:39 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Does the relay have enough pull to HOLD the contact but not pull it in?

Yes.

Can you measure the voltage at the felay coil?
Is it AC Or DC at the telay, make sure you use the correct meter.
I would guess it is AC

Yes, it's AC, but there's no way to measure the voltage. It's on a
circuit board that sits 1/2" above the metal bottom of the unit. It's
soldered in. Well, maybe I could take the board out of the metal
box. You're right, if I can, I should do that and take measurements
before I disconnect everything. Maybe this is why I've been stalling***

If you have other controllers to canabalize, can you replace the relay?
Mark

I have a whole other controller that I don't know for sure works** but
it probably does. But I've been ***stalling for some reason about
putting it in. One reason is probably that there are 12 wires that
have to be reconnected, and even after making a drawing and taking a
picture, I have the feeling I will screw up. All the colored wires
are black now, plus senior moments maybe, since I've made a few repair
mistakes in the last year.

After I replace it, I'm going to try to figure out what is wrong with
it.

**I have a whole other burner that the owner across the street gave me
when he replaced his identical furnace with a new one. There's a
chance that he replaced it because this part failed, but I believe I
asked him if the furnace worked and he said yes.

On Sunday, November 23, 2014 11:43:11 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Sun, 23 Nov 2014 07:18:39 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Does the relay have enough pull to HOLD the contact but not pull it in?

Yes.

maybe you can adjust the spring pull or contact spacing so it will have enough pull to pull it in agasint a lighter spring of less distance...

but again, maybe you should wait until spring if it is basically working now....


actually it's probably time for you to get some help on the scene in person either from a pro or a more knowledgable DIY.

Mark

On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 07:08:08 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Sunday, November 23, 2014 11:43:11 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Sun, 23 Nov 2014 07:18:39 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Does the relay have enough pull to HOLD the contact but not pull it in?

Yes.

maybe you can adjust the spring pull or contact spacing so it will have enough pull to pull it in agasint a lighter spring of less distance...

I think there's only one spring and it pulls the armature contacts away
from the fixed ones.

Here's what the whole thing looks like:
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTEzNlg3MzY=/z/FlYAAOSwGvhT8o2g/$_1.JPG
Shift-mouse-wheel makes it bigger, though it's been sold and I don't
know how long the image will still be there.

This one is one version newer than mine. It has an LED to show when
it's in lockout, the small parts aren't identical, and the circuit board
isn't held in place by bent metal tabs, like in mine.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honeywell-R8...em2a2720 3da6
This is the same thing
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honeywell-R8...em27cbc7 064c
They both have mouse-over-zoom.

The first owner of the house saved the owners manual to everything, even
the bathroom fans, as well as the washer and dryer and dishwasher and
garbage disposal, and the furnace/AC which is probably the most
important one. And it includes two diagrams, A) for the
burner/thermostat/fan-relay/etc., the whole system, and B) an internal
wiring diagram of the control unit and the thermostat.

Here are two diagrams, on page 11, figure 6, but don't knock yourself
out on this stuff. I've spent hours studying the diagrams and the rest
of the pdf file.
http://dms.hvacpartners.com/docs/100...06/58H-5SI.pdf
Page 11 is the only page where the image is tilted.
The top diagram on page 10, figure 5, is basically the same thing, but
heat only, no AC, so maybe it makes things simpler.

Diagram B isn't quite complete. The control until has two transistors,
two resistors and a ceramic capacitor that aren't shown on the diagram.
And there is a little clear plastic box with a button (that the Reset
button presses on when pushed) which the schematic calls Solid State
Switch and shows 4 wires going into it. (Maybe I'm supposed to know that
in that SSSwitch are also the transistors, etc.) Two of those 4 wires
also connect to the two sides of the power relay winding, so I think
somewhere in that SSSwitch is the secret to what I suspect is a lower
voltage than normal. .

but again, maybe you should wait until spring if it is basically working now....

Well it was fun at the end of last winter turning on and off the furnace
by hand for a couple weeks. And it was fun again the start of this
winter. And it's fun finding the sweet spot for the stick that makes it
run on its own. But I think soon it will be no more fun and I'll
replace the control unit.


actually it's probably time for you to get some help on the scene in person either from a pro or a more knowledgable DIY.

Alas, I'm the most knowledgeable DIY I know. Many of the people I know
don't know how to fix a thing, and the rest specialize. ;-) None
specialize in furnaces, especially oil furnaces. (I did have
occasions to help a friend who maintains a large old auditorium building
(3 stories high, extends from one street to the next one) He kept
suspecting boxes attached to the boiler, but when I got home and looked
up their name and model on the net, they were ancillary things. He
either fixed it or called a repairman. So I didn't' fix it but I saved
him from replacing things that were not broken. And I was able to
explain to him how they worked and how the boiler control circuits
worked better than he had known before.

As to pros, on the first few annual maintenance visits by pros, they
used gauges to measure the stack temperature, and maybe the CO2
percentage, etc.

But somewhere along the line they stopped using gauges. They just
vacuumed the flue, replaced the nozzle, looked at the flame, put in one
of those things that burns any oil that has collected at the bottom of
the firebox, and they were done. I had the smallest shop-vac they sold
and I had to buy a new bigger shopvac to get one that would accept soot
filters, but after I got that, I could do three of the four things they
did.**

Back when servicemen did come out, I suppose if I had told the person on
the phone I wanted someone who would check things with the gauges, they
would have sent one for the same price, but I didn't think of that then,
and I've gotten to feel that if they ask someone, Do you use the gauges,
he's say "Yes" whether he does or not, and if they send him, if he
normally doesn't use them, he'll pretend to use them. and I'll be no
better off. (Wait till I post what the Toyota dealer did and you'll
see why I'm so cynical.)

In 2010 and 2012, I called my oil supplier to make an appointment for
someone to service the furnace. I probably called in September. Each
time she told me that they were booked up. I don't remember if I had
told her I was for years by then an oil-delivery customer. I asked,
Could you call me when you have time, and each time, she very nicely
said she would. But she never did.

I'm fed up with the pros around here.


**Recently I bought some of those oil-burning things, but I haven't used
one yet. (I have a 0.75 gallon/hour nozzle, and the control unit trips
after 45 seconds without flame, and if that happens, in that time, 45
seconds, 3/80ths of a gallon = 3/5ths of a cup, gets sprayed But I
haven't had a lockout in 5 or 10 years.


Mark

On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 23:06:59 -0500, micky
wrote:

(I did have
occasions to help a friend who maintains a large old auditorium building
(3 stories high, extends from one street to the next one) He kept

5 stories actually, not counting the cupola. Construction took several
years, ending in 1928. They're on their second furnace however.

The building is not used much, and never by anywhere near the 1000
people it was designed to seat, so it was hard to justify a whole new
furnace, but I think they came up with a plan for a new heating system
for the part they do use.

suspecting boxes attached to the boiler, but when I got home and looked
up their name and model on the net, they were ancillary things. He
either fixed it or called a repairman. So I didn't' fix it but I saved
him from replacing things that were not broken. And I was able to
explain to him how they worked and how the boiler control circuits
worked better than he had known before.

On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 17:38:15 -0500, micky
wrote:


I also had trouble with the reset button for a while. I thought it was
a relay, and I looked for a relay that fit the spot, one with a built-in
button like some do have. Couldn't find one, but eventually the device
starting working fine again and has done so for 25 more years. I'm
dumbfounded by this.

I combined two stories, I think, or just mixed up this one.

I think I'm talking here about the actual relay, not the other thing I
know now is the safety switch, which I may have also had trouble with on
another occasion.

But ever since these two control unit episodes, I
had my eyes open for a junk one. I missed two or three, that were by
the curb when I was going out and gone by the time I got home, but I got
one before I needed it.

I also took the spare parts, capacitor, maybe the contactor, from an
identical condensing unit being junked, but only used a plastic circular
disk that later broke on mine.

here is a diagram of the control unit wiring
https://customer.honeywell.com/resou.../GIF/m1559.gif

if you are manually pressing down the relay to start the burner THEN YOU ARE DEFEATING ONE OF THE SAFTEY FEATURES.

I would do this only in an emergency and only if you were there to monitor the burner the entire time it is running and turn it OFF if the flame goes out. One purpose of the saftey is to prevent a situation where the burner continuous to run when the flame is out. This pumps oil that is not burned into the box. The oil is not burned and accumulates in the box. If an exceesive amount of oil accumulates in the box, the next time the burner is started the ignition can set off ALL THE ACCUMULATED OIL AT ONCE. You can understand why this is bad. Do not defeat the saftey.

The controller uses the CAD cell (electric eye) on the left to verify the flame. If the flame is out, the saftey switch heater get energized and after a time delay the saftey switch turns off and this turns off the current to your realy which is K1 on the diagram.

If yoru realy won't pull in at the start, something is wrong with the saftey switch. The current to initially pull in K1 flows thgh the saftey switch heater. Thus something may be wrong with the saftey, and it prevents the controller from starting. It is a fail safe desgn and if you press in the relay by hand, you are defeating the fail safe.

Mark





Mark