We have a 400 foot building that we refer to as the back house. It has
electrical, phone, heat and a fireplace. No plumbing. The idiots who owned
this house before built it and much like everything else they did, they
screwed this up as well. I think.

We just had a new roof put on that building and the house and are getting
ready to have them painted. But the painter noticed several pieces of
siding that were rotting on the back house. We knew of two but there were
three more pieces.

Husband didn't like the price that the painter (he also does siding,
windows, roofs, etc.) had quoted so decided to do this himself.

Well... Long story short, whoever built this building just slapped the
siding up over the 2 x 4's which is likely why it is rotting. Daughter said
she thought there should be Tyvek up underneath. My mom thought tar paper.
I looked online and it said specifically for a shed which is basically what
this is, to use house wrap. Not sure what house wrap is.

So my question is... How bad is it not to have anything underneath? And
what (if anything) should be underneath? The building is mainly used for
storage of seasonal items and we don't really have a lot of those. Also
some lawn equipment but we have a gardener now so we don't use those things.
We do have a garden shed on the side of the house so any of the smaller
things are in there. Lawn mower won't fit though.

I would hate to have to pull all of the siding off and do this over. We
don't even need a building this big. Husband had intended to put in a floor
(floor currently is cement) and walls but gave up after putting a wee bit of
insulation and wallboard around the fireplace. His friend had suggested
putting in beadboard over some insulation so that it wouldn't have to be
painted. But I can't see that happening now as we no longer have a way to
haul stuff like that.

If we leave it like it is... Would this be a really bad thing? We've been
here for almost 10 years now. I kept sweeping out dead worms by the
fireplace and there were tons of spiders in there. I sprayed for those and
no more. But I figured out how they were getting in. There was a hole
rotted all the way through by the fireplace.

Oh and we are in WA state. I saw someone else here mention that this siding
is sometimes used in the Northwest. My parent's house has it and it was
built in 1962. House is still standing and their siding never rotted. I
think husband helped in rotting two pieces of ours when he pulled off some
gutter. Why? No clue. New gutter has since been installed but the damage
already occurred. Painter said we might need to replace a couple of other
sections of gutter but wasn't sure that was the cause of the damage.

Julie,

Did the painter offer a guess as to the rot?
Tyvek is a house wrap. It's not clear to me why you would use house wrap
or insulation on a structure that is basically storage. You do not mention
sheathing. Is the building sheathed with something? It's not just a bunch of
2x4s covered in siding, right?

Dave M.

"Julie Bove" wrote in message


Well... Long story short, whoever built this building just slapped the
siding up over the 2 x 4's which is likely why it is rotting. Daughter
said she thought there should be Tyvek up underneath. My mom thought tar
paper. I looked online and it said specifically for a shed which is
basically what this is, to use house wrap. Not sure what house wrap is.

Tyvec is house wrap.

So my question is... How bad is it not to have anything underneath? And
what (if anything) should be underneath?

Tyvec et al is to minimize air intrusion/flow...to make a house more air
tight. It's presence or lack of same has nothing to do with siding or
sheathing rotting. However, its presence may help keep the internal
structure - the studs - from rotting by keeping water away from them.

I can think of no reason why you would need house wrap (or tar paper) on a
shed/storage building.




at race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"dadiOH" wrote in :

Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

You must be dreaming on that asking price. No wonder it hasn't sold in
three years.

On Thursday, June 26, 2014 7:21:26 AM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
"Julie Bove" wrote in message





Well... Long story short, whoever built this building just slapped the

siding up over the 2 x 4's which is likely why it is rotting. Daughter

said she thought there should be Tyvek up underneath. My mom thought tar

paper. I looked online and it said specifically for a shed which is

basically what this is, to use house wrap. Not sure what house wrap is.



Tyvec is house wrap.



So my question is... How bad is it not to have anything underneath? And

what (if anything) should be underneath?



Tyvec et al is to minimize air intrusion/flow...to make a house more air

tight. It's presence or lack of same has nothing to do with siding or

sheathing rotting. However, its presence may help keep the internal

structure - the studs - from rotting by keeping water away from them.



I can think of no reason why you would need house wrap (or tar paper) on a

shed/storage building.


Seems you cited a reason, ie to keep any water that gets past
the siding from rotting the studs. And if water gets inside the
wall cavity, it's likely to remain there longer, possibly rotting
the siding from the inside. With Tyvek, any that get in doesn't
go far, it runs down and out.

On Thursday, June 26, 2014 4:41:25 AM UTC-4, Julie Bove wrote:
We have a 400 foot building that we refer to as the back house. It has

electrical, phone, heat and a fireplace. No plumbing. The idiots who owned

this house before built it and much like everything else they did, they

screwed this up as well. I think.



We just had a new roof put on that building and the house and are getting

ready to have them painted. But the painter noticed several pieces of

siding that were rotting on the back house. We knew of two but there were

three more pieces.



Husband didn't like the price that the painter (he also does siding,

windows, roofs, etc.) had quoted so decided to do this himself.



Well... Long story short, whoever built this building just slapped the

siding up over the 2 x 4's which is likely why it is rotting. Daughter said

she thought there should be Tyvek up underneath. My mom thought tar paper.

I looked online and it said specifically for a shed which is basically what

this is, to use house wrap. Not sure what house wrap is.



So my question is... How bad is it not to have anything underneath? And

what (if anything) should be underneath?

I would have put Tyvek, ie housewrap on it. In the past, tar paper
was used for similar purpose. It forms a water barrier, so any water
that gets past the siding doesn't go deep into the wall cavity. Any
water that gets to the Tyvek, runs down it and out. When water gets
deep inside, it can lead to rot, like you have.




The building is mainly used for

storage of seasonal items and we don't really have a lot of those. Also

some lawn equipment but we have a gardener now so we don't use those things.

We do have a garden shed on the side of the house so any of the smaller

things are in there. Lawn mower won't fit though.



I would hate to have to pull all of the siding off and do this over. We

don't even need a building this big. Husband had intended to put in a floor

(floor currently is cement) and walls but gave up after putting a wee bit of

insulation and wallboard around the fireplace. His friend had suggested

putting in beadboard over some insulation so that it wouldn't have to be

painted. But I can't see that happening now as we no longer have a way to

haul stuff like that.



If we leave it like it is... Would this be a really bad thing?

Impossible to say without knowing more. We don't know how badly
rotted those sections are, what % of the total siding they are,
if the studs behind it are rotting too, etc. And what's the alternative?
To paint over rotting siding?

The usual procedure here is to pull one of the bad panels and
see what's going on behind.

David Martel wrote:
Julie,

Did the painter offer a guess as to the rot?
Tyvek is a house wrap. It's not clear to me why you would use house
wrap or insulation on a structure that is basically storage. You do not
mention sheathing. Is the building sheathed with something? It's not
just a bunch of 2x4s covered in siding, right?

Dave M.
Hi,
Just siding pieces hung on bare 2x4s? I never saw that done???? pro
painter does just good painting work. Sounds like he is jack of all but
master of none. I don't like trade person like that. Sounds like he's a
handyman.

Julie Bove wrote:
We have a 400 foot building that we refer to as the back house. It has
electrical, phone, heat and a fireplace. No plumbing. The idiots who
owned this house before built it and much like everything else they did,
they screwed this up as well. I think.

Hi,
And you bought the place? Screwed up place? Back house is screwed up?
what else? Sounds like the structure is in unfinished stage from the
original plan whatever it was. Maybe it meant to be a guest house when
finished. My daughter's second house in the Rockies has a fully finished
structure like that. Just like one bedroom apartment. When folks come
visit, they stay there comfortably.

"Zaky Waky" wrote in message

"dadiOH" wrote in :

Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

You must be dreaming on that asking price.

I know, way too low.

No wonder it hasn't sold in
three years.

Haven't been trying, it has always been leased.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"David Martel" wrote in message
...
Julie,

Did the painter offer a guess as to the rot?
Tyvek is a house wrap. It's not clear to me why you would use house wrap
or insulation on a structure that is basically storage. You do not mention
sheathing. Is the building sheathed with something? It's not just a bunch
of 2x4s covered in siding, right?

I'm not really sure what sheathing is. It did look like it was just the 2 x
4s with siding over it.

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...
David Martel wrote:
Julie,

Did the painter offer a guess as to the rot?
Tyvek is a house wrap. It's not clear to me why you would use house
wrap or insulation on a structure that is basically storage. You do not
mention sheathing. Is the building sheathed with something? It's not
just a bunch of 2x4s covered in siding, right?

Dave M.
Hi,
Just siding pieces hung on bare 2x4s? I never saw that done???? pro
painter does just good painting work. Sounds like he is jack of all but
master of none. I don't like trade person like that. Sounds like he's a
handyman.

The painter didn't build the building. He is my neighbor. I trust his
work. He has done work for us before.

"dadiOH" wrote in message
...
"Julie Bove" wrote in message


Well... Long story short, whoever built this building just slapped the
siding up over the 2 x 4's which is likely why it is rotting. Daughter
said she thought there should be Tyvek up underneath. My mom thought tar
paper. I looked online and it said specifically for a shed which is
basically what this is, to use house wrap. Not sure what house wrap is.

Tyvec is house wrap.

So my question is... How bad is it not to have anything underneath? And
what (if anything) should be underneath?

Tyvec et al is to minimize air intrusion/flow...to make a house more air
tight. It's presence or lack of same has nothing to do with siding or
sheathing rotting. However, its presence may help keep the internal
structure - the studs - from rotting by keeping water away from them.

I can think of no reason why you would need house wrap (or tar paper) on a
shed/storage building.

I see. I did look up sheathing. I don't know if that is there or not. We
have a piece of it in the garage so they did use it somewhere. It is
possible that my husband removed that along with the siding. Perhaps I just
didn't see it.

"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, June 26, 2014 7:21:26 AM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
"Julie Bove" wrote in message





Well... Long story short, whoever built this building just slapped the

siding up over the 2 x 4's which is likely why it is rotting. Daughter

said she thought there should be Tyvek up underneath. My mom thought
tar

paper. I looked online and it said specifically for a shed which is

basically what this is, to use house wrap. Not sure what house wrap
is.



Tyvec is house wrap.



So my question is... How bad is it not to have anything underneath?
And

what (if anything) should be underneath?



Tyvec et al is to minimize air intrusion/flow...to make a house more air

tight. It's presence or lack of same has nothing to do with siding or

sheathing rotting. However, its presence may help keep the internal

structure - the studs - from rotting by keeping water away from them.



I can think of no reason why you would need house wrap (or tar paper) on
a

shed/storage building.


Seems you cited a reason, ie to keep any water that gets past
the siding from rotting the studs. And if water gets inside the
wall cavity, it's likely to remain there longer, possibly rotting
the siding from the inside. With Tyvek, any that get in doesn't
go far, it runs down and out.

Thanks!

"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, June 26, 2014 4:41:25 AM UTC-4, Julie Bove wrote:
We have a 400 foot building that we refer to as the back house. It has

electrical, phone, heat and a fireplace. No plumbing. The idiots who
owned

this house before built it and much like everything else they did, they

screwed this up as well. I think.



We just had a new roof put on that building and the house and are getting

ready to have them painted. But the painter noticed several pieces of

siding that were rotting on the back house. We knew of two but there
were

three more pieces.



Husband didn't like the price that the painter (he also does siding,

windows, roofs, etc.) had quoted so decided to do this himself.



Well... Long story short, whoever built this building just slapped the

siding up over the 2 x 4's which is likely why it is rotting. Daughter
said

she thought there should be Tyvek up underneath. My mom thought tar
paper.

I looked online and it said specifically for a shed which is basically
what

this is, to use house wrap. Not sure what house wrap is.



So my question is... How bad is it not to have anything underneath? And

what (if anything) should be underneath?

I would have put Tyvek, ie housewrap on it. In the past, tar paper
was used for similar purpose. It forms a water barrier, so any water
that gets past the siding doesn't go deep into the wall cavity. Any
water that gets to the Tyvek, runs down it and out. When water gets
deep inside, it can lead to rot, like you have.




The building is mainly used for

storage of seasonal items and we don't really have a lot of those. Also

some lawn equipment but we have a gardener now so we don't use those
things.

We do have a garden shed on the side of the house so any of the smaller

things are in there. Lawn mower won't fit though.



I would hate to have to pull all of the siding off and do this over. We

don't even need a building this big. Husband had intended to put in a
floor

(floor currently is cement) and walls but gave up after putting a wee bit
of

insulation and wallboard around the fireplace. His friend had suggested

putting in beadboard over some insulation so that it wouldn't have to be

painted. But I can't see that happening now as we no longer have a way
to

haul stuff like that.



If we leave it like it is... Would this be a really bad thing?

Impossible to say without knowing more. We don't know how badly
rotted those sections are, what % of the total siding they are,
if the studs behind it are rotting too, etc. And what's the alternative?
To paint over rotting siding?

The usual procedure here is to pull one of the bad panels and
see what's going on behind.

It didn't look like the studs were rotting. The siding was all rotting at
the very bottom. Two pieces I presumed because he had pulled off the
section of gutter that was there. The building remained like that until he
saw the rotted siding and then he put more gutter up.

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...
Julie Bove wrote:
We have a 400 foot building that we refer to as the back house. It has
electrical, phone, heat and a fireplace. No plumbing. The idiots who
owned this house before built it and much like everything else they did,
they screwed this up as well. I think.

Hi,
And you bought the place? Screwed up place? Back house is screwed up? what
else? Sounds like the structure is in unfinished stage from the original
plan whatever it was. Maybe it meant to be a guest house when
finished. My daughter's second house in the Rockies has a fully finished
structure like that. Just like one bedroom apartment. When folks come
visit, they stay there comfortably.

Everything about this place is screwed up. The guy who did the inspection
on it did us no favors. He said things were fine when they weren't. Roof
stapled on. Every time we had hard wind, shingles blew off. Plumbing
problems galore. Something badly wrong in the kitchen but unless we open
the wall up, we won't know what. Plumbers have said that either they
dropped something in the pipe, jugging it up or it makes a sharp turn.
Either way, the kitchen sink is very prone to clogs. I've been told not to
use the garbage disposal at all.

Electrical all messed up. Not sure why. Neither the electrician nor Mr.
Handyman could figure that out. But Mr. Handyman at least cut the power to
one outlet and that keeps the GFI from tripping.

We also have standing water under the house.

"trader_4" wrote in message

On Thursday, June 26, 2014 7:21:26 AM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:

I can think of no reason why you would need house wrap (or tar paper)
on a

shed/storage building.


Seems you cited a reason, ie to keep any water that gets past
the siding from rotting the studs. And if water gets inside the
wall cavity, it's likely to remain there longer, possibly rotting
the siding from the inside. With Tyvek, any that get in doesn't
go far, it runs down and out.

If its like most sheds I've seen, there is no wall cavity; i.e., no inside
covering. And I'm not so sure about the efficacy of Tyvek...

Three, four years ago I had occasion to remove a bunch of windows from a
house where the builders were dummies. The windows had been put in so that
the sill had no slope and did not extend beyond the siding. For this
reason - and others - water poured into the wall whenever it rained. All
was removed, repaired and rebuilt.

The house had been wrapped with Tyvek but - at least in the repaired areas -
it had disintegrated.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

I would agree with dadiOH. Tyvek is a wind barrier.
It's irrelevant in your situation. If you don't generally
heat the building then installing Tyvek would be a big
job with no benefit. You need to replace the rotted
T-111, which is cheap and easy to do. If necessary,
deal with whatever might be causing the rot. If water
gets in over the long term there will be rot. Tyvek won't
stop that.

There's nothing wrong with T-111 over studs. I'm
assuming you don't have insulation in the wall. Maybe
the inside wall is wood paneling or some such? If you
ever decided to upgrade the building you could use
the T-111 as sheathing and put siding over it -- with
or without putting Tyvek underneath. But Tyvek is
only to stop drafts. It's not worth spending a lot of
money on unless you use a lot of heat and you can wrap
the whole building.

On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 22:38:25 -0700, "Julie Bove"
wrote:


"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...
Julie Bove wrote:
We have a 400 foot building that we refer to as the back house. It has
electrical, phone, heat and a fireplace. No plumbing. The idiots who
owned this house before built it and much like everything else they did,
they screwed this up as well. I think.

Hi,
And you bought the place? Screwed up place? Back house is screwed up? what
else? Sounds like the structure is in unfinished stage from the original
plan whatever it was. Maybe it meant to be a guest house when
finished. My daughter's second house in the Rockies has a fully finished
structure like that. Just like one bedroom apartment. When folks come
visit, they stay there comfortably.

Everything about this place is screwed up. The guy who did the inspection
on it did us no favors. He said things were fine when they weren't. Roof
stapled on. Every time we had hard wind, shingles blew off. Plumbing
problems galore. Something badly wrong in the kitchen but unless we open
the wall up, we won't know what. Plumbers have said that either they
dropped something in the pipe, jugging it up or it makes a sharp turn.
Either way, the kitchen sink is very prone to clogs. I've been told not to
use the garbage disposal at all.

Electrical all messed up. Not sure why. Neither the electrician nor Mr.
Handyman could figure that out. But Mr. Handyman at least cut the power to
one outlet and that keeps the GFI from tripping.

We also have standing water under the house.

People have been known to sue their home inspector, and those with a
good case have won.

I don't know what all a home inspector is obligated to find, but surely
some of these things.

Julie.

It's common to frame a house with 2x4s. After the framing is up the
framing is covered with plywood sheets on the outside and perhaps drywall on
the inside. House wrap (or tar paper) is stapled to the sheathing to prevent
drafts. Then siding is put on to protect the walls from rain' Without
sheathing the house wrap will flap in the wind and quickly fail. Go to a few
local building sites abd see if house are sheathed in your locale. I think
you shed is really shoddy construction
This has nothing to do with your rot problem, though. I'd urge you to
figure out why there is rot and fix that. I'd not insulate or bead board
this building.

Dave M.

I have T1-11 as sheathing on my 10 year old back porch. I have replaced
sections of T 1-11 for rot at the bottom of the panel where it meets the
roof line of the house.
The rot problem seems to be the result of my use of stain rather than
latex paint for the first 6 years of the porch existence along with
questionable flashing installation.

Steve

On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 21:08:52 -0400, Steve Stone
wrote:

I have T1-11 as sheathing on my 10 year old back porch. I have replaced
sections of T 1-11 for rot at the bottom of the panel where it meets the
roof line of the house.
The rot problem seems to be the result of my use of stain rather than
latex paint for the first 6 years of the porch existence along with
questionable flashing installation.

Steve
The biggest problem will be the flashing - and sealing the cut
edges. Stain should protect the siding just fine.

"David Martel" wrote in message
...
Julie.

It's common to frame a house with 2x4s. After the framing is up the
framing is covered with plywood sheets on the outside and perhaps drywall
on the inside. House wrap (or tar paper) is stapled to the sheathing to
prevent drafts. Then siding is put on to protect the walls from rain'
Without sheathing the house wrap will flap in the wind and quickly fail.
Go to a few local building sites abd see if house are sheathed in your
locale. I think you shed is really shoddy construction
This has nothing to do with your rot problem, though. I'd urge you to
figure out why there is rot and fix that. I'd not insulate or bead board
this building.

Tyvek is used here. I know this because the house next door which I have
named the Winchester Mystery House Part 2 had Tyvek up for many years on the
side that faces the side of my house. The wind eventually whipped it down.

I am sure that the building wasn't done right. Not sure about the rot
except for where husband pulled the gutter down.

"Steve Stone" wrote in message
...
I have T1-11 as sheathing on my 10 year old back porch. I have replaced
sections of T 1-11 for rot at the bottom of the panel where it meets the
roof line of the house.
The rot problem seems to be the result of my use of stain rather than
latex paint for the first 6 years of the porch existence along with
questionable flashing installation.

Steve

Ah. Hmmm... Well all flashing has been replaced when we got the new roof.
And this wasn't stained but painted.

"Mayayana" wrote in message
...
I would agree with dadiOH. Tyvek is a wind barrier.
It's irrelevant in your situation. If you don't generally
heat the building then installing Tyvek would be a big
job with no benefit. You need to replace the rotted
T-111, which is cheap and easy to do. If necessary,
deal with whatever might be causing the rot. If water
gets in over the long term there will be rot. Tyvek won't
stop that.

There's nothing wrong with T-111 over studs. I'm
assuming you don't have insulation in the wall. Maybe
the inside wall is wood paneling or some such? If you
ever decided to upgrade the building you could use
the T-111 as sheathing and put siding over it -- with
or without putting Tyvek underneath. But Tyvek is
only to stop drafts. It's not worth spending a lot of
money on unless you use a lot of heat and you can wrap
the whole building.

There are no inside walls or insulation except for a tiny portion around the
fireplace which my husband put in.

Originally he was going to make it for a place for his friends to come over
and play poker in. But that never happened. So it's just for storage.

"micky" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 22:38:25 -0700, "Julie Bove"
wrote:


"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...
Julie Bove wrote:
We have a 400 foot building that we refer to as the back house. It has
electrical, phone, heat and a fireplace. No plumbing. The idiots who
owned this house before built it and much like everything else they
did,
they screwed this up as well. I think.

Hi,
And you bought the place? Screwed up place? Back house is screwed up?
what
else? Sounds like the structure is in unfinished stage from the original
plan whatever it was. Maybe it meant to be a guest house when
finished. My daughter's second house in the Rockies has a fully finished
structure like that. Just like one bedroom apartment. When folks come
visit, they stay there comfortably.

Everything about this place is screwed up. The guy who did the inspection
on it did us no favors. He said things were fine when they weren't. Roof
stapled on. Every time we had hard wind, shingles blew off. Plumbing
problems galore. Something badly wrong in the kitchen but unless we open
the wall up, we won't know what. Plumbers have said that either they
dropped something in the pipe, jugging it up or it makes a sharp turn.
Either way, the kitchen sink is very prone to clogs. I've been told not
to
use the garbage disposal at all.

Electrical all messed up. Not sure why. Neither the electrician nor Mr.
Handyman could figure that out. But Mr. Handyman at least cut the power
to
one outlet and that keeps the GFI from tripping.

We also have standing water under the house.

People have been known to sue their home inspector, and those with a
good case have won.

I don't know what all a home inspector is obligated to find, but surely
some of these things.

It's probably too late to do that. We bought this place nearly 10 years
ago.

"dadiOH" wrote in message
...
"trader_4" wrote in message

On Thursday, June 26, 2014 7:21:26 AM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:

I can think of no reason why you would need house wrap (or tar paper)
on a

shed/storage building.


Seems you cited a reason, ie to keep any water that gets past
the siding from rotting the studs. And if water gets inside the
wall cavity, it's likely to remain there longer, possibly rotting
the siding from the inside. With Tyvek, any that get in doesn't
go far, it runs down and out.

If its like most sheds I've seen, there is no wall cavity; i.e., no inside
covering. And I'm not so sure about the efficacy of Tyvek...

Three, four years ago I had occasion to remove a bunch of windows from a
house where the builders were dummies. The windows had been put in so
that the sill had no slope and did not extend beyond the siding. For this
reason - and others - water poured into the wall whenever it rained. All
was removed, repaired and rebuilt.

The house had been wrapped with Tyvek but - at least in the repaired
areas - it had disintegrated.

This same window thing happened to a woman I know. Was expensive to fix.

Hi Julie,

We have a 400 foot building that we refer to as the back house.
the painter noticed several pieces of siding that were rotting
on the back house. We knew of two but there were three more pieces.
whoever built this building just slapped the siding up over the
2 x 4's which is likely why it is rotting.

It is standard practice to install T-111 siding directly to the studs. It
serves dual functions as structural sheathing and siding.

The most likely scenarios I can think of for the rot a

1. The siding is too close to the ground. It should be at least 6" from
the ground, or moisture and splashback from the ground will wick up the
bottom of the sheets causing them to rot at the bottom.

2. There should be metal "z-flashing" anywhere you have a horizontal seam
between sheets. This typically occurs on gable ends where you have siding
in the triangular area in the gable above the normal siding. Without the
flashing, water can run down the wall into the horizontal seam and inside
the wall. The flashing ensures that any water that finds it's way into
the seam is directed to the exterior of the building.

3. Trim around doors, windows, or other openings are not caulked or
flashed properly.

4. The stain on the siding has not been maintained properly.

5. It's possible the T-111 siding is of poor quality. The stuff they used
on our old mobile home was basically just particle board (not plywood or
OSB) and was easily damaged by water. However, it can still perform well
if it is flashed and maintained properly.

Daughter said she thought there should be Tyvek up underneath. My mom
thought tar paper. I looked online and it said specifically for a shed
which is basically what this is, to use house wrap.

Tyvek (AKA house wrap) or tar paper are not really needed behind T-111
siding. Plywood siding typically has shiplapped edges that prevent water
and air from entering at the vertical joints between sheets. It is also
installed so that the sheet edges land on a stud, which would further
reduce any water infiltration.

I would hate to have to pull all of the siding off and do this over.

There's no reason to replace all of the siding. Just replace the sheets
that are damaged.

If we leave it like it is... Would this be a really bad thing?

The problem will only continue to get worse. Fix it now while it's still
a small repair. Wait and it will cost you more in the future. Not to
mention, moisture problems will attract insects, including ants and
termites that can further damage the structure.

While it is wise to fix everything as soon as possible, you could always
replace a sheet or two as time and money allows. I would start with the
areas that are the most damaged and work towards the rest.

Oh and we are in WA state. I saw someone else here mention that this
siding is sometimes used in the Northwest. My parent's house has it
and it was built in 1962.

I live in Washington State also. We used rough sawn plywood (basically T-
111 without the grooves) when we built our house back in 2003/2004:

http://www.watsondiy.com/2003house.htm

Our siding is applied directly to the studs as yours is. 10 years later,
stained with a semi-opaque stain every five years, and no sign of rot.

Take care,

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

"HerHusband" wrote in message


I live in Washington State also. We used rough sawn plywood (basically T-
111 without the grooves) when we built our house back in 2003/2004:

http://www.watsondiy.com/2003house.htm

You did a HELLUVA job!!

Nice having an apparently knowledgeable co-worker too. My wife helps -
fetches stuff...cleans grout sponges...holds while I nail...etc. - but has
never quite grasped concepts

A question about your shower tile. I'm going to be doing one pretty soon,
want to use black tile, preferably 6x6. It seems to be getting scarce; for
example, I am told that Florida Tile has totally discontinued wall tile.
What I CAN find is much more expensive per sq.ft. than floor tiles. OK, I
could use the larger floor tiles, I don't mind cutting, but trim tiles can
be scarce. And expensive.

I see that your shower wall tiles are butted to wood. All sides? If not,
how did you handle the edge? Same question for the edge between the tub
platform and black tile.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

I live in Washington State also. We used rough sawn plywood
(basically T- 111 without the grooves) when we built our house back
in 2003/2004:
http://www.watsondiy.com/2003house.htm

You did a HELLUVA job!!

Thanks, we really enjoy it.

Nice having an apparently knowledgeable co-worker too. My wife helps
- fetches stuff...cleans grout sponges...holds while I nail...etc. -
but has never quite grasped concepts

Yep, my wife loves to do construction work too. She doesn't always know the
proper steps to take, but given a little instruction she'll be off and
running on her own.

Unlike the stories I've heard from many couples, we had a great time
building our house together. We also spent the last 10 years remodeling her
parents house together. It helps that we have similar design tastes.

A question about your shower tile. I'm going to be doing one pretty
soon, want to use black tile, preferably 6x6. It seems to be getting
scarce; for example, I am told that Florida Tile has totally
discontinued wall tile.

I can't say I've seen black tile locally, but I wasn't really looking for
it either.

We looked at several tile stores, but ended up buying ours from Home Depot
and Lowes. I think we got the green tile from Lowes, and the tan tile from
Home Depot, but after ten years I'm not sure now. As with most things,
those styles aren't available anymore. I did buy a few extra boxes of each
tile to have on hand if we need to replace a tile in the future.

I could use the larger floor tiles, I don't mind cutting, but trim
tiles can be scarce. And expensive.

Yep, trim tiles (bullnose, etc.) were not available for the tiles we chose.
It wasn't a huge problem since we were covering most of the edges with wood
anyway.

For the shampoo bottle niche in the second bath, I used an angle grinder to
round over the edges of the tiles. It actually worked rather well since the
tile was nearly 1/4" thick.

I didn't do that with the tile on the edge of our master tub deck. Visually
it looks fine, but there is a semi-sharp edge if you were to fall against
it or something. It hasn't been an issue for us.

I see that your shower wall tiles are butted to wood. All sides?

The tile extends out past the areas that get wet and butt into the drywall.
Then I have cedar trim covering the seam.

If not, how did you handle the edge?

There are quite a few detail photos in my old message thread on the John
Bridge tile forum:

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...ad.php?t=12876

Take care,

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 05:51:59 +0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

Hi Julie,

BTW, T1-11 comes in at least two patterns, that is, the widths of the
bands that make up the design. When I wanted a matching sheet to
replace one that had cracked, HDepot didn't have that pattern but Lowes
did, or vice versa. If they hadn't had it, I would have looked at
lumber yards And I got exactly the same pattern.

IIRC, I had earlier needed a piece to rebuild the small privacy fence
around the small front patio. I definitiely wanted that to match since
it adjoined my next door neighbor's fence and there are matching fences
all down the street. I found it at the first store I went to, but I
think they didn't have it 10 years later. I think that means they
changed suppliers, and all I had to do was find someone who used the
same supplier. which turned out to be Lowes. Hmmm Actually neither
Lowes nor HD existed when I bought my house or 10 years later, but that
doesn't change the story

We have a 400 foot building that we refer to as the back house.
the painter noticed several pieces of siding that were rotting
on the back house. We knew of two but there were three more pieces.
whoever built this building just slapped the siding up over the
2 x 4's which is likely why it is rotting.

It is standard practice to install T-111 siding directly to the studs. It
serves dual functions as structural sheathing and siding.

The most likely scenarios I can think of for the rot a

1. The siding is too close to the ground. It should be at least 6" from
the ground, or moisture and splashback from the ground will wick up the
bottom of the sheets causing them to rot at the bottom.

2. There should be metal "z-flashing" anywhere you have a horizontal seam
between sheets. This typically occurs on gable ends where you have siding
in the triangular area in the gable above the normal siding. Without the
flashing, water can run down the wall into the horizontal seam and inside
the wall. The flashing ensures that any water that finds it's way into
the seam is directed to the exterior of the building.

I agree with you, but FTR, my house doesn't have the flashing and there
hasn't been any water damage, probably not even that one sheet (out of 6
similar ones) mentioned above. Maybe it has to do with which way the
wind blows here or the trees that might stop the wind at the gable end
of the house, or lots of other things, so I'm not saying that z-flashing
shouldn't be installled**, just that one should not assume its absence
is the problem. She should try to go quickly, but slow enough to figure
out the actual problem.

**I didnt' know about Z-flashing until I read this post, so all I know
is what I read in this post.

......

Our siding is applied directly to the studs as yours is. 10 years later,
stained with a semi-opaque stain every five years, and no sign of rot.

Mine's 35 years old and in good condition except where,. during bad
years, I didn't restatin it often enough.


Take care,

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

Micky,

BTW, T1-11 comes in at least two patterns, that is, the widths of the
bands that make up the design.

That's a good recommendation to measure what spacing you have before you
shop for replacements!

I have seen sheets with the grooves every 4" as well as the more common
8" spacing. I've even seen sheets with alternating 4" spacing and 8"
spacing, though it has been a while since I've seen one of those.

I've also noticed variations in texture. Rough sawn seems to mean
different things to different plywood companies. Thankfully, once it's
stained or painted to match, the texture isn't as noticeable unless you
have two different sheets butted up next to each other.

The original poster will also need to verify the thickness of the plywood
before they buy replacements.

I agree with you, but FTR, my house doesn't have the flashing and
there hasn't been any water damage, probably not even that one sheet
(out of 6 similar ones) mentioned above.

Sometimes the upper sheets on a gable end overlap the lower wall. That
basically serves the same purpose to keep water out of the joint.

Maybe it has to do with which way the wind blows here or the trees that
might stop the wind at the gable end of the house

If you have decent roof overhangs and the gable isn't real tall, it's
probably sheltered from the majority of the rain. It would only get wet
when rain is blown at the wall and may have time to dry out in between.

It's also possible the joint is caulked?

I'm not saying that z-flashing shouldn't be installed, just that one
should not assume its absence is the problem.

Missing z-flashing is probably not a huge issue, but if no other
explanation can be found it's something to look at.

Mine's 35 years old and in good condition except where, during bad
years, I didn't restain it often enough.

We sprayed on our stain the first time (without backbrushing). Since it
mostly just sat on the surface, it only lasted about five years before I
had to restain. The second time around I used a roller to apply the
stain. It took about the same amount of time, but the penetration and
coverage was much nicer. It will be interesting to see if it lasts longer
this time. So far it's not showing any signs of wear.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

"HerHusband" wrote in message

I live in Washington State also. We used rough sawn plywood
(basically T- 111 without the grooves) when we built our house back
in 2003/2004:
http://www.watsondiy.com/2003house.htm

You did a HELLUVA job!!

Thanks, we really enjoy it.

Nice having an apparently knowledgeable co-worker too. My wife helps
- fetches stuff...cleans grout sponges...holds while I nail...etc. -
but has never quite grasped concepts

Yep, my wife loves to do construction work too. She doesn't always know
the proper steps to take, but given a little instruction she'll be off and
running on her own.

Unlike the stories I've heard from many couples, we had a great time
building our house together. We also spent the last 10 years remodeling
her parents house together. It helps that we have similar design tastes.

A question about your shower tile. I'm going to be doing one pretty
soon, want to use black tile, preferably 6x6. It seems to be getting
scarce; for example, I am told that Florida Tile has totally
discontinued wall tile.

I can't say I've seen black tile locally, but I wasn't really looking for
it either.

We looked at several tile stores, but ended up buying ours from Home Depot
and Lowes. I think we got the green tile from Lowes, and the tan tile from
Home Depot, but after ten years I'm not sure now. As with most things,
those styles aren't available anymore. I did buy a few extra boxes of each
tile to have on hand if we need to replace a tile in the future.

I could use the larger floor tiles, I don't mind cutting, but trim
tiles can be scarce. And expensive.

Yep, trim tiles (bullnose, etc.) were not available for the tiles we
chose. It wasn't a huge problem since we were covering most of the edges
with wood anyway.

For the shampoo bottle niche in the second bath, I used an angle grinder
to round over the edges of the tiles. It actually worked rather well
since the tile was nearly 1/4" thick.

I didn't do that with the tile on the edge of our master tub deck.
Visually it looks fine, but there is a semi-sharp edge if you were to
fall against it or something. It hasn't been an issue for us.

I see that your shower wall tiles are butted to wood. All sides?

The tile extends out past the areas that get wet and butt into the
drywall. Then I have cedar trim covering the seam.

If not, how did you handle the edge?

There are quite a few detail photos in my old message thread on the John
Bridge tile forum:

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...ad.php?t=12876

Take care,

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

Thanks, appreciated.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

HerHusband wrote:

....snip...


http://www.watsondiy.com/2003house.htm

Our siding is applied directly to the studs as yours is. 10 years later,
stained with a semi-opaque stain every five years, and no sign of rot.

Take care,

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

Great video and nice pictures.

I love the open shower in the bathroom. Is there no toilet in that room?

http://www.watsondiy.com/2003house.htm

Great video and nice pictures.

Thanks!

I love the open shower in the bathroom.
Is there no toilet in that room?

The toilet is behind the door on the right, as you walk into the master
bath.

Our shower is 6'x6' with a shower head and valve on each wall of the back
corner. The entire bathroom has a waterproofing membrane, so no door or
shower curtain is needed.

We framed the shower floor 2" lower so the mud bed can slope down from the
rest of the bathroom floor. This allows proper drainage without needing a
curb to contain the water.

We built our house with the intent to stay here the rest of our lives. So
we tried to design it with wheelchair access in mind. Single level home,
36" doors throughout, and no shower curb. We would still need to build a
ramp on the exterior of the building if it ever comes to that, but the
inside is mostly ready to go.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

On Friday, June 27, 2014 8:44:35 AM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
I would agree with dadiOH. Tyvek is a wind barrier.



It's also a moisture barrier. It stops moisture from penetrating
further into the wall cavity. Is it essential for a shed, no.
But that doesn't mean that all it does is block wind.




It's irrelevant in your situation. If you don't generally

heat the building then installing Tyvek would be a big

job with no benefit.

It's trivial to install Tyvek when installing siding. No one
is suggesting that she rip off perfectly good siding to put
in Tyvek, but if sections or even all the siding needs to be
replaced, if I were building the shed, I'd put it in. On the other
hand, if you're only going to live there 10 years and/or don't care,
then you don't have to use it either.



You need to replace the rotted

T-111, which is cheap and easy to do. If necessary,

deal with whatever might be causing the rot. If water

gets in over the long term there will be rot. Tyvek won't

stop that.


It would stop the studs from being rotted. And maybe lessen
the chance of the siding rotting. Which is worse? A wall cavity
where water that gets past the siding goes deep inside? Or a
wall cavity where the water hits the Tyvek and runs down, instead
of going in?




There's nothing wrong with T-111 over studs. I'm

assuming you don't have insulation in the wall. Maybe

the inside wall is wood paneling or some such? If you

ever decided to upgrade the building you could use

the T-111 as sheathing and put siding over it -- with

or without putting Tyvek underneath. But Tyvek is

only to stop drafts.

Wrong again.

It's not worth spending a lot of

money on unless you use a lot of heat and you can wrap

the whole building.

| I would agree with dadiOH. Tyvek is a wind barrier.
|
| It's also a moisture barrier. It stops moisture from penetrating
| further into the wall cavity. Is it essential for a shed, no.
| But that doesn't mean that all it does is block wind.
|

If it blocked moisture that would be a problem. The
whole point is to let water vapor through while blocking
wind. In a typical scenario there's a plastic vapor
barrier on the inside. If Tyvek blocked moisture then
any that got through would be trapped between the
two layers. You'd have a mold farm in your insulation.

It's not only not essential for a shed. It would
be a waste of work and money. You're just complicating
the issue unnecessarily. If there's rot in the T-111 then
it needs to be dealt with. Putting any moisture barrier
behind it, on the outside of the studs, would be asking
for more trouble.

HerHusband wrote:
Micky,

BTW, T1-11 comes in at least two patterns, that is, the widths of the
bands that make up the design.

That's a good recommendation to measure what spacing you have before you
shop for replacements!

I have seen sheets with the grooves every 4" as well as the more common
8" spacing. I've even seen sheets with alternating 4" spacing and 8"
spacing, though it has been a while since I've seen one of those.

I've also noticed variations in texture. Rough sawn seems to mean
different things to different plywood companies. Thankfully, once it's
stained or painted to match, the texture isn't as noticeable unless you
have two different sheets butted up next to each other.


There is also a product from LP called SmartSide that looks very much like
rough sawn T1-11 but is actually a composite material that is supposed to
be insect and moisture resistant.

http://www.lpcorp.com/smartside/panel/

My shed kit came with siding and trim made with that material.

http://handyhome.com/marco-series/kingston8x8/

(I paid $250 for an open box kit at HD. After buying the flooring and
roofing material (which isn't included in the kit) and a few extra studs to
add sill plates (sill plates aren't used if the kit is built per the
instructions, but I wanted the walls built the right way) my total cost was
still less than just the kit itself if bought at the regular price.)

On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 19:07:56 +0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

Micky,

BTW, T1-11 comes in at least two patterns, that is, the widths of the
bands that make up the design.

That's a good recommendation to measure what spacing you have before you
shop for replacements!

I have seen sheets with the grooves every 4" as well as the more common
8" spacing. I've even seen sheets with alternating 4" spacing and 8"
spacing, though it has been a while since I've seen one of those.

I've also noticed variations in texture. Rough sawn seems to mean
different things to different plywood companies. Thankfully, once it's
stained or painted to match, the texture isn't as noticeable unless you
have two different sheets butted up next to each other.

Even when the deign is quite similar, I've seen two different designs.

The original poster will also need to verify the thickness of the plywood
before they buy replacements.

Right. And different thicknesses.

I agree with you, but FTR, my house doesn't have the flashing and
there hasn't been any water damage, probably not even that one sheet
(out of 6 similar ones) mentioned above.

Sometimes the upper sheets on a gable end overlap the lower wall. That
basically serves the same purpose to keep water out of the joint.

Yeah, I checked. They do.

Maybe it has to do with which way the wind blows here or the trees that
might stop the wind at the gable end of the house

If you have decent roof overhangs and the gable isn't real tall, it's

No. The overhang is just the thickness of a 1x6 and he gable varies
from zero to 7 feet tall.

probably sheltered from the majority of the rain. It would only get wet
when rain is blown at the wall and may have time to dry out in between.

It's also possible the joint is caulked?

No.

I'm not saying that z-flashing shouldn't be installed, just that one
should not assume its absence is the problem.

Missing z-flashing is probably not a huge issue, but if no other
explanation can be found it's something to look at.

For sure.

Mine's 35 years old and in good condition except where, during bad
years, I didn't restain it often enough.

We sprayed on our stain the first time (without backbrushing). Since it
mostly just sat on the surface, it only lasted about five years before I
had to restain. The second time around I used a roller to apply the
stain. It took about the same amount of time, but the penetration and
coverage was much nicer. It will be interesting to see if it lasts longer
this time. So far it's not showing any signs of wear.

I used a roller and a long extension the first and only time. I sort
of thought one of my next-door neighbor's would be gung ho siding, and
we'd get the same thing so it matched, like we did with the roof. But
no one has brought it up with any seriousness.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

On Saturday, June 28, 2014 7:06:18 PM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
| I would agree with dadiOH. Tyvek is a wind barrier.

|

| It's also a moisture barrier. It stops moisture from penetrating

| further into the wall cavity. Is it essential for a shed, no.

| But that doesn't mean that all it does is block wind.

|



If it blocked moisture that would be a problem.


http://www.dupont.com/products-and-s...m-product.html

"DuPont(tm) Tyvek(R) HomeWrap(R) is the original house wrap. It holds out air and bulk water, while allowing interior moisture vapor to escape, promoting drying within the wall systems, and helping prevent water damage and mold. "



The

whole point is to let water vapor through while blocking

wind.





In a typical scenario there's a plastic vapor

barrier on the inside. If Tyvek blocked moisture then

any that got through would be trapped between the

two layers. You'd have a mold farm in your insulation.



"DuPont(tm) Tyvek(R) HomeWrap(R) is the original house wrap. It holds out air and bulk water, while allowing interior moisture vapor to escape, promoting drying within the wall systems, and helping prevent water damage and mold. "

Note the part about "bulk water".



It's not only not essential for a shed. It would

be a waste of work and money. You're just complicating

the issue unnecessarily. If there's rot in the T-111 then

it needs to be dealt with. Putting any moisture barrier

behind it, on the outside of the studs, would be asking

for more trouble.

I didn't say it was essential. But it doesn't cost much and it's
added protection. And at least I understand what Tyvek does.
Feel free to admit you're wrong, or keep digging your hole, your
choice.

|
http://www.dupont.com/products-and-s...m-product.html
|
| "DuPont(tm) Tyvek(R) HomeWrap(R) is the original house wrap. It holds out
air and bulk water, while allowing interior moisture vapor to escape,
promoting drying within the wall systems, and helping prevent water damage
and mold. "
|
| I didn't say it was essential. But it doesn't cost much and it's
| added protection. And at least I understand what Tyvek does.
| Feel free to admit you're wrong, or keep digging your hole, your
| choice.

So you advocate taking all of the T-111 off of the shed to
put Tyvek underneath, despite that the shed is not normally
heated (and doesn't even have an interior wall) in hopes that
any water actually running under the T-111 will be prevented
from getting through?

I simply can't see the sense in that. I also wouldn't depend on
Tyvek to prevent water soaking through. (The term "bulk water"
is ambiguous. I know that Tyvek will stop water flow, like a bucket
of liquid water thrown at it. I'm not confident it would stop water
soaking through to a stud in a scenario where the siding is staying
wet. That sounds like creative marketing on the part of DuPont to
me. They're exploiting peoples' fear of water damage with a vague
and largely irrelevant claim. Water *flowing* around or under siding
is a rare situation, and would be somewhat of an emergency. Tyvek
underneath is not a cure for that. Tyvek's to stop wind. Siding is to
stop water.)
What about just dealing with the siding? Water shouldn't be
getting through in the first place.

Hopefully Julie Bove, and anyone else dealing with a similar
situation, can filter through all the responses here and come
up with a good solution. All I can say is that I hope she doesn't
take down her siding to put up Tyvek because I think that would
be an expensive waste of time and money for absolutely no
gain.

I guess that's a shortcoming of advice forums. When one
doesn't have confidence in any one person to know the
answer, one can end up with far too many answers and not
enough solutions.