I am wondering if prolonged cold spells substantially reduce the temperature
of the water entering a house from the city water service . . .

.. . . and if that's true, does that temperature drop translate into
increased stress on water heaters? My neighbor's just failed and last week
we had a water main rupture, too. I can't help but wonder if these are
temperature-related failures.

How would you go about measuring the inlet temperature of water? My thought
is to let the cold water run for about 3 minutes to "cold soak" the pipes
(copper, in my case, uninsulated, too) and then measure the temperature at
the tap.

Letting it run for 3 minutes produced 41.5F on two different digital
thermometers so I guess the answer to my question is that yes, the inlet
temperature varies based on the outside temps and quite a bit more than I
would have imagined. FWIW, it's about 29F outside and has been fairly cold
out for a few weeks.

I'd like to be able to monitor and log the inlet temperature, but it would
be hard to automate a 3 minute "cold soak" measurement like the one I just
took. I have a HomeVision home automation controller that would allow me to
attach a TI digital sensor to the inlet pipe where it enters the house in
the basement. I can log those temps to the PC but it would be a)
"contaminated" by the room heat and b) would vary substantially based on how
much water is or isn't flowing past the external sensor. I suppose I can
discard all but the lowest reading and perhaps put some insulation over the
sensor and around the pipe to reduce the effects of room heat on the sensor.

Thanks for your input in advance . . .

--
Bobby G.

In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:

I am wondering if prolonged cold spells substantially reduce the temperature
of the water entering a house from the city water service . . .

. . . and if that's true, does that temperature drop translate into
increased stress on water heaters? My neighbor's just failed and last week
we had a water main rupture, too. I can't help but wonder if these are
temperature-related failures.


I'm curious, lets say you prove that it is true. Short of moving to a
warmer climate, what do you intend to do about it? Seems like a lot of
work without much in the way of ROI.

In my case, the water in the pipes in the basement are colder than the
water entering the house. But that's because I keep my basement at
around 35 degrees in the winter. My water heater failed one summer, but
it was about 25 years old and likely due to fail anyway.

On Monday, February 10, 2014 11:40:30 AM UTC-5, Robert Green wrote:
I am wondering if prolonged cold spells substantially reduce the temperature

of the water entering a house from the city water service . . .

Yes. Our tap water varies from lukewarm in the summer to ice cold in the winter, in central Virginia.

On Monday, February 10, 2014 12:36:33 PM UTC-5, TimR wrote:
On Monday, February 10, 2014 11:40:30 AM UTC-5, Robert Green wrote:

I am wondering if prolonged cold spells substantially reduce the temperature



of the water entering a house from the city water service . . .



Yes. Our tap water varies from lukewarm in the summer to ice cold in the winter, in central Virginia.

In coming water is definitely colder here in suburban NJ in winter too.
That's why it's good to have automatic temp adjusting on washing
machines. The older ones just gave you cold, half and half for warm,
or hot. Newer/better ones mix it to the correct temp. In winter
mine adds some amount of hot water, even if you have it set to
cold.

On Monday, February 10, 2014 10:40:30 AM UTC-6, Robert Green wrote:
I am wondering if prolonged cold spells substantially reduce the temperature of the water entering a house from the city water service . . . . . . and if that's true, does that temperature drop translate into increased stress on water heaters? My neighbor's just failed and last week we had a water main rupture, too. I can't help but wonder if these are temperature-related failures. How would you go about measuring the inlet temperature of water? My thought is to let the cold water run for about 3 minutes to "cold soak" the pipes (copper, in my case, uninsulated, too) and then measure the temperature at the tap. Letting it run for 3 minutes produced 41.5F on two different digital thermometers so I guess the answer to my question is that yes, the inlet temperature varies based on the outside temps and quite a bit more than I would have imagined. FWIW, it's about 29F outside and has been fairly cold out for a few weeks. I'd like to be able to monitor and log the inlet temperature, but it would be hard to automate a 3 minute "cold soak" measurement like the one I just took. I have a HomeVision home automation controller that would allow me to attach a TI digital sensor to the inlet pipe where it enters the house in the basement. I can log those temps to the PC but it would be a) "contaminated" by the room heat and b) would vary substantially based on how much water is or isn't flowing past the external sensor. I suppose I can discard all but the lowest reading and perhaps put some insulation over the sensor and around the pipe to reduce the effects of room heat on the sensor. Thanks for your input in advance . . . -- Bobby G..

Here in suburban Chicagoland, there is almost always a rash of municipal water main breaks after a good cold snap, due to the water mains shrinking due to the scold temperatures that get down to the level of the installed pipes. Unless there are some strain reliefs periodically, the shrinkage causes stresses and the weakest one breaks. Stress relief usually takes the form of an "S" bend periodically.

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
I am wondering if prolonged cold spells substantially reduce the
temperature
of the water entering a house from the city water service . . .

. . . and if that's true, does that temperature drop translate into
increased stress on water heaters?
Bobby G.

If the water heater has to operate longer to bring the incoming water up to
temperature translates into " increased stress", then so be it. But that's
how it is supposed to work.
MLD

On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 11:40:30 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

I am wondering if prolonged cold spells substantially reduce the temperature
of the water entering a house from the city water service . . .

. . . and if that's true, does that temperature drop translate into
increased stress on water heaters? My neighbor's just failed and last week
we had a water main rupture, too. I can't help but wonder if these are
temperature-related failures.

How would you go about measuring the inlet temperature of water? My thought
is to let the cold water run for about 3 minutes to "cold soak" the pipes
(copper, in my case, uninsulated, too) and then measure the temperature at
the tap.

Letting it run for 3 minutes produced 41.5F on two different digital
thermometers so I guess the answer to my question is that yes, the inlet
temperature varies based on the outside temps and quite a bit more than I
would have imagined. FWIW, it's about 29F outside and has been fairly cold
out for a few weeks.

I'd like to be able to monitor and log the inlet temperature, but it would
be hard to automate a 3 minute "cold soak" measurement like the one I just
took. I have a HomeVision home automation controller that would allow me to
attach a TI digital sensor to the inlet pipe where it enters the house in
the basement. I can log those temps to the PC but it would be a)
"contaminated" by the room heat and b) would vary substantially based on how
much water is or isn't flowing past the external sensor. I suppose I can
discard all but the lowest reading and perhaps put some insulation over the
sensor and around the pipe to reduce the effects of room heat on the sensor.

Thanks for your input in advance . . .

Of course the water temps will be colder in cold weather, and this year
they are likely colder than usual. Many towns and cities have overhead
tower tanks. They are those huge tanks way up in the air that hold
water and provide pressure. It's cold up there. so that water gets darn
cold. I often wonder if there is some ice formation in those tanks,
despite constant flow in and out of them.

But colder water is not going to "stress" a water heater (unless it
freezes in a shut off heater). But it will make heating take longer and
cause an increase in gas usage (or electric if it's an elec. heater).

As for measuring the temp of the water, I cant think of any way except
to find the spigot closest to the incoming water, put some in a
container, and quickly insert a thermometer.

"Mark Storkamp" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:

I am wondering if prolonged cold spells substantially reduce the
temperature
of the water entering a house from the city water service . . .

. . . and if that's true, does that temperature drop translate into
increased stress on water heaters? My neighbor's just failed and last
week
we had a water main rupture, too. I can't help but wonder if these are
temperature-related failures.


I'm curious, lets say you prove that it is true. Short of moving to a
warmer climate, what do you intend to do about it? Seems like a lot of
work without much in the way of ROI.

Do you mean to say you can't think of *any* inexpensive or cost-free way to
reduce potential thermal stress on a water heater when the inlet temperature
goes very low? I can think of several off-hand.

In my case, the water in the pipes in the basement are colder than the
water entering the house. But that's because I keep my basement at
around 35 degrees in the winter.

That's pretty unusual for most homeowners I know.

--
Bobby G.

On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 15:17:49 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:



Do you mean to say you can't think of *any* inexpensive or cost-free way to
reduce potential thermal stress on a water heater when the inlet temperature
goes very low? I can think of several off-hand.


Our house - 60 years ago in Chicago - had a "tempering" tank.
An uninsulated, unheated tank of about the same size next to the HW
tank.
That's the only way to reduce HW tank inlet temp I can think of - that
makes sense and is cost effective,
Don't think it was used to reduce "stress."
Probably to increase capacity for a smaller water heater.
Or to sell the "tempering" tank.
Only reason to have one nowadays is perhaps to "temper" water
for the on-demand type heaters.

"TimR" wrote in message
...
On Monday, February 10, 2014 11:40:30 AM UTC-5, Robert Green wrote:
I am wondering if prolonged cold spells substantially reduce the
temperature

of the water entering a house from the city water service . . .

Yes. Our tap water varies from lukewarm in the summer to ice cold in the
winter, in central Virginia.

I used to notice things like this when I had a darkroom but it's been a long
time. I was surprised to read it at 41.5F. Does anyone know if well-water
is subject to the same temperature swings as municipal water?

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message news:cd7f8aa1-52e3-4c2f-8d47-

stuff snipped

In coming water is definitely colder here in suburban NJ in winter too.
That's why it's good to have automatic temp adjusting on washing
machines. The older ones just gave you cold, half and half for warm,
or hot. Newer/better ones mix it to the correct temp. In winter
mine adds some amount of hot water, even if you have it set to
cold.

In the winter I trim the washing machine "cold" valve to about half flow.
Takes longer to fill the tub but Ye Olde Kenmore has simple hot/warm/cold
settings and no capacity for automatic temperature adjustment. Since it's
set and forget operation, the longer fill times don't bother me much. I
think the next time the shower/diverter valve needs replacing, I will choose
a thermostatic unit. There's a chance of doing real damage if the shower
temperature drifts too much.

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message news:cad124f5-e6d5-4e63-a6b6-

stuff snipped

Here in suburban Chicagoland,

I love that term - I watch a lot of WGN reruns on cable so I always end up
watching the "Chicagoland" news inadvertently. The first time I heard the
term, I thought they were talking about some sort of amusement park.

there is almost always a rash of municipal water main breaks after a good
cold snap, due to the water mains shrinking due to the scold temperatures
that get down to the level of the installed pipes.

That was another question I had - how long does it take to "cold soak" the
ground. I've read alot about freeze lines but these pipe ruptures seem to
be occurring well below that level.

Unless there are some strain reliefs periodically, the shrinkage causes
stresses and the weakest one breaks. Stress relief usually takes the form
of an "S" bend periodically.

I don't know whether it's still true, but I recall seeing on TV that some
municipal water systems are so old they are still using wooden mains. I
guess I should ask Google.

CHELAN, Wash. - It has been 2,000 years since the Romans built their
aqueducts, and 200 years since Philadelphia began using cast-iron water
mains. But the 6-inch-wide city pipe that still delivers drinking water to a
block on Nixon Street here uses an even more primitive technology: wood. . .
..
Water officials say they believe that a handful of wooden water mains are
still in use in South Dakota, Alaska and Pennsylvania, among other places.
The old wood pipes offer a vivid reminder of the age and fragility of the
nation's drinking water systems, many of which rely heavily on old pipes
that often remain out of sight and mind - until they burst.

And they are bursting with alarming frequency in many areas these days,
particularly in systems coping with septuagenarian, octogenarian, and even
century-old pipes. There are an estimated 240,000 water main breaks each
year in the United States, according to the Environmental Protection Agency'
s Aging Water Infrastructure Research Program, and some water experts fear
that the problem is getting worse. Source:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/18/us/18water.html

When the water main on my street broke last week, the water people had a
prerecorded message on their emergency number saying they were working on
several large breaks in the area. So it does seem to follow the cold
weather. Repairing broken mains can't be fun to do when it's 15F and windy
out.

It turns out that a lot of "schmutz" got into the water pipes. I spent some
time today clearing out some nasty looking debris from the screens in the
bathroom and kitchen faucets. It seems the showerhead got hit, too. )-:
Probably time to consider a whole-house water filter. When I first moved
in, I found an acorn lodged in the kitchen faucet.

--
Bobby G.

"MLD" wrote in message ...
"Robert Green" wrote in message

stuff snipped

. . . and if that's true, does that temperature drop translate into
increased stress on water heaters?

If the water heater has to operate longer to bring the incoming water up
to
temperature translates into " increased stress", then so be it. But
that's
how it is supposed to work.

If NASA had a little foresight about the problems of cold weather, they
might not have dropped the Challenger into the ocean. If the USN had
realized what happens to ballast blow valves (as they were designed before
1963) at depth (they froze solid) the Thresher might not have sunk.

What I am concerned about is limiting the delta between the incoming very
cold water and the much warmer tank interior. There are several ways to go
about that.

I've already taken one step, which is to reduce the incoming pressure to the
whole house. That slows down the amount of water that can enter the water
heater and reduces the potential thermal stress.

I'm also going to turn the water heater's thermostat down just to lower the
over all temperature differential. The cooler the WH output, the lower the
delta between incoming and outgoing water.

A third action is to trim the hot water feed valve to the washing machine so
that it doesn't draw anywhere near the GPM of a wide open valve. It will
take longer to fill (will be measuring that as we do laundry) but it's not a
very big thing to wait an hour instead of 30 minutes for the laundry to be
done. It's not like I am outside in the bitter cold beating the clothes on
river rocks. (-:

A fourth action will be to avoid the HOT only wash cycle during bitter cold
months (we typically wash our LBL dog's blanket in hot water), thus further
slowing down the amount of cold water that's introduced into the tank
quickly and lowering the thermal "shock" to the heater.

If I wanted to spend money, I might look into a pre or post water heater
expansion tank or put aluminum fins on the pipe leading from the master
intake to the water heater. That's at least 25' feet of copper pipe that
could transfer some room heat into the incoming water, but I think that's
way overkill.

I think reducing the pressure and the temperature while taking care not to
draw enormous amounts of hot water will substantially reduce the thermal
differential and the risk of catastrophic failure from thermal stress. It
will be just my luck that it fails as a result of crud getting into the
lines from the recent water main break, but at least I will have tried. (-:

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message

stuff snipped

Of course the water temps will be colder in cold weather, and this year
they are likely colder than usual. Many towns and cities have overhead
tower tanks. They are those huge tanks way up in the air that hold
water and provide pressure. It's cold up there. so that water gets darn
cold. I often wonder if there is some ice formation in those tanks,
despite constant flow in and out of them.

That's an interesting point about water towers. What *does* keep them from
freezing in prolonged cold snaps?

I think you've made the case that inlet temperature can vary widely
depending on the nature of the municipal plumbing. I don't remember the tap
water in NYC ever being as cold as it is here in DC but then again, we're
much closer to the source of the water (the Potomac River) than NYC is to
theirs.

I believe a lot of that water comes to NYC in deep underground aqueducts.
Can't say for sure - just don't remember NYC tap water ever being this cold.
All I remember about the NY water system is that some towns along the
aqueducts are washing away because the old pipes are so leaky.

But colder water is not going to "stress" a water heater (unless it
freezes in a shut off heater). But it will make heating take longer and
cause an increase in gas usage (or electric if it's an elec. heater).

I think I have to take exception to that statement. Any increased
temperature differential is likely to be an increased source of stress. I
seem to recall a number of Liberty ships that broke in half and sank from
thermal issues arising from sailing missions to very cold Russian ports
during WWII. I'd ask my USN materials science engineer dad, but he's been
dead for quite a while. )-: I guess these guys will have to do:

http://www.plumbingpro.com/blog/cold...y-water-heater

So why do water heater fail more in winter?
As the temperature gets colder the water temperature also declines. This
forces the water heater to work harder and longer to get the water to that
temperature you like. It also causes more stress on the tank because the
water enters the water heater on the top but is forced to the bottom through
the dip tube, this means the top is hot and the bottom is colder this caused
the tank to flex. in winter there is a greater temperature differential than
in summer causing more flexing, another stress caused by colder water is
thermal expansion caused by the cold water being heated and expanding, as
the water expands it can create more pressure, if there no place for the
water to go. All these extra flexing and pressure will cause a water heater
at the end of it's life cycle to give up and die spewing water from it's
stressed tank down to to put out it's eternal pilot light.

As for measuring the temp of the water, I cant think of any way except
to find the spigot closest to the incoming water, put some in a
container, and quickly insert a thermometer.

That's given me an idea. I can tape a thermal sensor to the pipe where it
enters the house, wrap it in insulation and record those measurements while
I am simultaneously recording the temperature flowing from the tap that's
been opened for a few minutes. There should be a pretty consistent
relationship between the two readings - at least enough for me to map out an
interpolation table on my HomeVision controller.

I actually could even automate turning the water pressure down in the winter
because I have an electrically controlled main shutoff valve (right after
the manual shutoff) that can be adjusted to a partially closed position
based on the inlet temperature. As long as the pressure's enough to operate
the shower massager, it's OK with us. I could even automate the washing
machine hot and cold water valves to reduce the cold by 3/4 and the hot by
1/2 in the winter. Hmm, more "science experiments" as my wife so fondly
calls them.

Thanks, Caulky!

--
Bobby G.

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 15:17:49 -0500, "Robert Green"

stuff snipped

Do you mean to say you can't think of *any* inexpensive or cost-free way
to
reduce potential thermal stress on a water heater when the inlet
temperature
goes very low? I can think of several off-hand.

Our house - 60 years ago in Chicago - had a "tempering" tank.
An uninsulated, unheated tank of about the same size next to the HW
tank.
That's the only way to reduce HW tank inlet temp I can think of - that
makes sense and is cost effective,

By now you've probably read about the things I intend to experiment with to
nurse the heater along through the supercold weather. So far, so good with
the pressure drop and I am about to do a load of laundry to measure the fill
rate.

The shower massager still pulses (turns out to be an excellent informal
pressure gauge by accident!), the toilet's taking a little longer to fill
and the bathroom sink is unusually low-flow and probably indicates
something's amiss somewhere other than the screen. That fixed the low flow
in the kitchen but not in the bathroom. So reducing pressure as a test
actually had a diagnostic side effect. It really slowed down the flow from
screens clogged with spooge.

Don't think it was used to reduce "stress."

Probably not, but you're in a cold enough climate that you never know, IIRC.

Probably to increase capacity for a smaller water heater.

You said "next to" the heater - was it in line before the heater or after?
Before it might have indeed been a pretempering device.

Or to sell the "tempering" tank.

Yeah, what he just said. (-:

Only reason to have one nowadays is perhaps to "temper" water
for the on-demand type heaters.

Oh, 25 to 50 extra gallons of potable water on premises can't be a bad idea,
overall. In DC, we worry about dirty bombs and other "cakes baked" by those
with an anti-government agenda, foreign and domestic.

While I don't think thermal stress is a great contributor to the *overall*
wearing out of a water heater, what I've read so far convinces me that a
long bout of very unusually cold weather will kill off the weaker water
heaters in the herd. And by age alone, mine's a downer heater.

Speaking of euthanizing water heaters, how about that giraffe? I've already
read two different versions. Killed by shotgun, killed by boltgun. I love
the uncertainty of breaking news. (-:

Putting down "excess stock" makes me worry that one day when it's time to
retire the boss will say: "Vic, Bobby - your outtake interviews are in room
one" and Anton Chigur from "No Country For Old Men" will be waiting in there
with his compressed air tank. PFFFFT!

(Wouldn't that thing get all matted up with dried brain goo?)

--
Bobby G.

On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 19:33:24 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 15:17:49 -0500, "Robert Green"

stuff snipped

Do you mean to say you can't think of *any* inexpensive or cost-free way
to
reduce potential thermal stress on a water heater when the inlet
temperature
goes very low? I can think of several off-hand.

Our house - 60 years ago in Chicago - had a "tempering" tank.
An uninsulated, unheated tank of about the same size next to the HW
tank.
That's the only way to reduce HW tank inlet temp I can think of - that
makes sense and is cost effective,

By now you've probably read about the things I intend to experiment with to
nurse the heater along through the supercold weather. So far, so good with
the pressure drop and I am about to do a load of laundry to measure the fill
rate.

No, I'll go look.
Okay, you basically throttled down the input, and turned down the
water heat. Seems a drastic step to take to reduce the possibility
of thermal shock.
But tinker if you want to. Cant hurt unless you screw up the valve.
I did the throttling bit once with an old gas furnace that was
throwing too much heat up the stack, but that was a different case.
I think you're making too much of it.

The shower massager still pulses (turns out to be an excellent informal
pressure gauge by accident!), the toilet's taking a little longer to fill
and the bathroom sink is unusually low-flow and probably indicates
something's amiss somewhere other than the screen. That fixed the low flow
in the kitchen but not in the bathroom. So reducing pressure as a test
actually had a diagnostic side effect. It really slowed down the flow from
screens clogged with spooge.

Don't think it was used to reduce "stress."

Probably not, but you're in a cold enough climate that you never know, IIRC.

Probably to increase capacity for a smaller water heater.

You said "next to" the heater - was it in line before the heater or after?
Before it might have indeed been a pretempering device.


Before. I removed it when I put a new WH in. It was old, and just
another failure point.
BTW, the water temp at the Lake Michigan intake crib whence my water
originates, is currently 32 F.
Don't know what the cold water Temp in the house is.
Except it's pretty cold.

Or to sell the "tempering" tank.

Yeah, what he just said. (-:

Only reason to have one nowadays is perhaps to "temper" water
for the on-demand type heaters.

Oh, 25 to 50 extra gallons of potable water on premises can't be a bad idea,
overall. In DC, we worry about dirty bombs and other "cakes baked" by those
with an anti-government agenda, foreign and domestic.


You're probably better off with a tempering tank to serve that "need."
I did a quick look and didn't see anybody selling them.
You need a tank able to withstand municipal water pressure.
Costly.

While I don't think thermal stress is a great contributor to the *overall*
wearing out of a water heater, what I've read so far convinces me that a
long bout of very unusually cold weather will kill off the weaker water
heaters in the herd. And by age alone, mine's a downer heater.

Speaking of euthanizing water heaters, how about that giraffe? I've already
read two different versions. Killed by shotgun, killed by boltgun. I love
the uncertainty of breaking news. (-:

Putting down "excess stock" makes me worry that one day when it's time to
retire the boss will say: "Vic, Bobby - your outtake interviews are in room
one" and Anton Chigur from "No Country For Old Men" will be waiting in there
with his compressed air tank. PFFFFT!

(Wouldn't that thing get all matted up with dried brain goo?)

I haven't followed it, but wonder why they don't use birth control to
avoid "excess stock."
Saw that movie, but don't remember an air tank.
Sorry (-:

I guess it depends on the source of the water.

Winnipeg gets it's water from Shoal Lake, which is a lake about 60 miles north of Winnipeg in a pretty deserted area of the province. Shoal Lake freezes over in winter, so the water that's pumped out of it in winter is only a few degrees above freezing, which is much colder than it is during the summer. (see PS below)

However, cities like Phoenix, Arizona get their water from an underground aquifer, and their "cold" water would be expected to be at about the same temperature year round.

If you have a single lever shower faucet, just take note of what the faucet handle position is in summer and in winter. The hot water in your water heater will be the same temperature (or close to) year round, so that the difference in handle positions is entirely due to the warmer cold water in summer and colder cold water in winter.

Water main breaks aren't caused by the pipe shortening due to thermal contraction in the cold. Underground piping has O-rings at the joints allowing the pipes to move longitudinally into and out of the joint socket. Normally, in winter, the ground freezes to a certain depth which we call the "frost line". Water supply pipes and sewer lines will be buried well below that frost line so that the water in the pipes doesn't freeze in winter. But, what happens is that as moisture in the ground freezes and expands AT the depth of the frost line, ice "lenses" form. They are called ice lenses because of their shape; being thickest in the middle and thinnest at the edges. These ice lenses are very localized, typically being no more than about 100 feet in diameter. It's the downward pressure exerted by the water as it freezes to the bottom of the ice lens and expands that causes water pipes to break underground. The force of water expanding as it freezes is pushing down on the pipe one place, and as little as 20 or 30 feet away, you don't have that force on the pipe, and so the pipe bends. In a worst case situation, the bending gets bad enough that the pipe breaks.

PS: When I was a kid I wondered why all the fish in the lakes didn't suffocate in winter because of the ice that forms on the surface of the lake. The reason why they can breathe in winter is because sunlight gets through that snow and ice cap and the green algae in the water use photosynthesis to produce oxygen from CO2 from decaying plants and animals. It's much the same thing as trees do, only underwater and at frigid temperatures.

nestork wrote:
Robert Green;3195907 Wrote:
I am wondering if prolonged cold spells substantially reduce the
temperature of the water entering a house from the city water service .
. .

They definitely do.

Winnipeg gets it's water from Shoal Lake, which is a lake in the
Whiteshell Provincial Park about 60 miles from Winnipeg.

If you have a single lever shower faucet, just take note of what the
faucet handle position is in summer and in winter. The hot water in
your water heater will be the same temperature (or close to) year round,
so that the difference in handle positions is entirely due to the warmer
cold water in summer and colder cold water in winter.

Water main breaks aren't caused by the pipe shortening due to thermal
contraction in the cold. Normally, in winter, the ground freezes to a
certain depth which we call the "frost line". Water supply pipes and
sewer lines will be buried well below that frost line so that the water
in the pipes doesn't freeze. But, what happens is that as moisture in
the ground freezes and expands AT the depth of the frost line, ice
"lenses" form. They are called ice lenses because of their shape; being
thickest in the middle and thinnest at the edges. These ice lenses are
very localized, typically being no more than about 100 feet in diameter.
It's the downward pressure exerted by the water as it freezes to the
bottom of the ice lens and expands that causes water pipes to break
underground. The force of water expanding as it freezes is pushing down
on the pipe one place, and as little as 30 or 40 feet away, you don't
have that pressure, and so the pipe bends until it breaks.




Hi,
Here in Calgary, most house has water pressure gauge set at 60 psi when
water is running. Winter/summer, no difference. Our pipes are minimum
6 feet below ground. Is some one paranoia of something? Water heater is
designed to work normal under normal conditions. I wouldn't worry and
fiddle with it. If some one wants to experiment to prove some thing,
it'll take at least for the life of water tank with every thing
observed/measured documented. Also water main butrssting in cold weather
is due to rather from the ground heaving than freezing water
causing water lens.

On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 17:57:11 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

wrote in message

stuff snipped

Of course the water temps will be colder in cold weather, and this year
they are likely colder than usual. Many towns and cities have overhead
tower tanks. They are those huge tanks way up in the air that hold
water and provide pressure. It's cold up there. so that water gets darn
cold. I often wonder if there is some ice formation in those tanks,
despite constant flow in and out of them.

That's an interesting point about water towers. What *does* keep them from
freezing in prolonged cold snaps?

I've wondered that myself, particularly in small towns. In a large
city, where people stay up all night and busineses are open, a lot of
water is still being used at night. But in a small town, that could be
very little water use. I live near a small town. People darn near
"roll up the sidewalks" at night. Night time always has coldest temps
too. In this town, there re two bars that close at 2am. Once the bars
close, there is just the ONE all night convenience store/gas station.
There are no all night factories, or anything like that. Just a few
cops at the courthouse. Aside from a few people flushing toilets during
the night, there is little water usage. This town has those tall metal
towers too, fed by a deep well. Its never froze?


I think you've made the case that inlet temperature can vary widely
depending on the nature of the municipal plumbing. I don't remember the tap
water in NYC ever being as cold as it is here in DC but then again, we're
much closer to the source of the water (the Potomac River) than NYC is to
theirs.

I believe a lot of that water comes to NYC in deep underground aqueducts.
Can't say for sure - just don't remember NYC tap water ever being this cold.
All I remember about the NY water system is that some towns along the
aqueducts are washing away because the old pipes are so leaky.

Coming from a river, the water would be colder than from a well.

But colder water is not going to "stress" a water heater (unless it
freezes in a shut off heater). But it will make heating take longer and
cause an increase in gas usage (or electric if it's an elec. heater).

I think I have to take exception to that statement. Any increased
temperature differential is likely to be an increased source of stress. I
seem to recall a number of Liberty ships that broke in half and sank from
thermal issues arising from sailing missions to very cold Russian ports
during WWII. I'd ask my USN materials science engineer dad, but he's been
dead for quite a while. )-: I guess these guys will have to do:

http://www.plumbingpro.com/blog/cold...y-water-heater

So why do water heater fail more in winter?
As the temperature gets colder the water temperature also declines. This
forces the water heater to work harder and longer to get the water to that
temperature you like. It also causes more stress on the tank because the
water enters the water heater on the top but is forced to the bottom through
the dip tube, this means the top is hot and the bottom is colder this caused
the tank to flex. in winter there is a greater temperature differential than
in summer causing more flexing, another stress caused by colder water is
thermal expansion caused by the cold water being heated and expanding, as
the water expands it can create more pressure, if there no place for the
water to go. All these extra flexing and pressure will cause a water heater
at the end of it's life cycle to give up and die spewing water from it's
stressed tank down to to put out it's eternal pilot light.

I can see some truth to that. Yet, a water heater should be designed
for all of that. Yet, if it's old and weak, the extra heating and temp
variations could add more stress. It's just like people, old people
cant work as hard as younger ones. The extra pressure from expansion
should be handled by the relief valve, if that's working....

As for measuring the temp of the water, I cant think of any way except
to find the spigot closest to the incoming water, put some in a
container, and quickly insert a thermometer.

That's given me an idea. I can tape a thermal sensor to the pipe where it
enters the house, wrap it in insulation and record those measurements while
I am simultaneously recording the temperature flowing from the tap that's
been opened for a few minutes. There should be a pretty consistent
relationship between the two readings - at least enough for me to map out an
interpolation table on my HomeVision controller.

If you got metal pipes, that should work. Plastic may not be quite as
accurate, but still close.

What's a HomeVision controller?


I actually could even automate turning the water pressure down in the winter
because I have an electrically controlled main shutoff valve (right after
the manual shutoff) that can be adjusted to a partially closed position
based on the inlet temperature. As long as the pressure's enough to operate
the shower massager, it's OK with us. I could even automate the washing
machine hot and cold water valves to reduce the cold by 3/4 and the hot by
1/2 in the winter. Hmm, more "science experiments" as my wife so fondly
calls them.

Thanks, Caulky!

Welcome.... Id like to hear the results...

wrote in message

stuff snipped

That's an interesting point about water towers. What *does* keep them
from
freezing in prolonged cold snaps?

I've wondered that myself, particularly in small towns.

OK - time to consult the oracle, Google:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/eng...wer-freeze.htm

Malcolm Jackson is the Business Development Manager for the tank
maintenance company Utility Service Co., Inc. The company has home offices
in Perry, GA, and has thousands of elevated tanks under full-service
maintenance contracts in 17 states.
Here is Malcolm's answer to the question:

They do freeze. They just don't normally freeze solid. In the more extreme
climates, like North Dakota, engineers incorporate heating systems into the
tank design. Specifically, the central pipe that runs from ground level up
into the bottom of the tank is called a riser. Water is pumped into the base
of the riser and allowed to rise into the tank. Many tank risers are
wrapped with heat tape, covered with insulation and capped by an aluminum
jacket. In addition, a heating system may be installed in an adjacent
building or into the valve pit underneath the riser. The heater introduces
heated water or steam into the base of the riser. In either case, the heat
rises into the tank to retard freezing. Ice forms on the surface of the
contents, in many cases several feet thick. Normally, this ice layer floats
on the surface as the water level rises and falls. Many times the ice
freezes to the roof or upper walls of the tank and remains there as the
level fluctuates underneath under daily usage. In more temperate climates,
steel ladders are installed inside the tank, and riser and water level
control probes hang from the roof. In colder climates, all inside fixtures
must be left out since the ice layer tends to rip them out.

--
Bobby G.

"Robert Green" wrote in
message

I am wondering if prolonged cold spells substantially
reduce the temperature of the water entering a house from
the city water service . . .

It depends upon where you live and the source of the city water.

If you live somewhere that has wide swings of temperature from season to
season the water temperature will also vary and the anount of variation
would change with ground water depth. If the source is surface water as
opposed to ground water it will vary even more. FWIW, the water in Honolulu
(ground water) varies about 2 degrees between winter and summer.

I would think that temperature variation also depends upon how the water is
stored, transmitted and the overall rate of use. For example, if you live
somewhere that uses ground water but provides a head to it via elevated
storage tanks, the ground water temperature is going to change in the
storage tank, colder in the winter, warmer in the summer; however; if the
water in the tank is being used and replenished rapidly, that variation
would be minimized.

I get my water (central Florida) from my well which is about 110'. At the
moment, I set my single handle shower mixer at about 10:30; come August, it
will be at 1:30 so there is considerable temperature variation in the
source, no idea how much in degrees.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"Robert Green" wrote in
message

What I am concerned about is limiting the delta between
the incoming very cold water and the much warmer tank
interior. There are several ways to go about that.

I've already taken one step, which is to reduce the
incoming pressure to the whole house. That slows down the
amount of water that can enter the water heater and
reduces the potential thermal stress.

That would limit the rate but would have no effect upon ther amount.
___________________

I'm also going to turn the water heater's thermostat down
just to lower the over all temperature differential. The
cooler the WH output, the lower the delta between
incoming and outgoing water.

It also means that the hot water temperature will be lower which means
you'll need a greater amount of it to get the same temperature fom a mixing
valve faucet.
___________________


I think reducing the pressure and the temperature while
taking care not to draw enormous amounts of hot water
will substantially reduce the thermal differential and
the risk of catastrophic failure from thermal stress. It
will be just my luck that it fails as a result of crud
getting into the lines from the recent water main break,
but at least I will have tried. (-:

I think you are busy making mountains out of mole hills

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"Robert Green" wrote in
message
wrote in message

stuff snipped

Of course the water temps will be colder in cold
weather, and this year they are likely colder than
usual. Many towns and cities have overhead tower
tanks. They are those huge tanks way up in the air
that hold water and provide pressure. It's cold up
there. so that water gets darn cold. I often wonder if
there is some ice formation in those tanks, despite
constant flow in and out of them.

That's an interesting point about water towers. What
*does* keep them from freezing in prolonged cold snaps?

Nothing IF the water isn't being used over an extended period of time.
Still, it would take a while...the water in the tank entered at whatever the
ground temperature is, there is a lot of water in them, going to take a LONG
time to freeze. Even if it did, it would start at the top, just like a pond
or lake. How long does it take a pond or lake to freeze solid? Depends on
the depth but- growing up in Indiana - I don't recall ever seeing one with
more than a foot of ice on top, if that.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 8:56:04 AM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
Nothing IF the water isn't being used over an extended period of time.

Still, it would take a while...the water in the tank entered at whatever the

ground temperature is, there is a lot of water in them, going to take a LONG

time to freeze. Even if it did, it would start at the top, just like a pond

or lake. How long does it take a pond or lake to freeze solid? Depends on


I'm not so sure about that. A water tower is basically spherical. It has vents on top, so the top of the water sees air temperature, but the tank is uninsulated very conductive metal, so I would think all the surface area is essentially the same temperature. I'd bet the water tower will freeze from the outside in, rather than the top down.

Some of them are full of strings of anode beads for corrosion protection, by the way.

On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 11:40:30 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

I am wondering if prolonged cold spells substantially reduce the temperature
of the water entering a house from the city water service . . .

I'm sure. The water coming from the cold water faucet is colder in the
winter than in the summer. And I've noticed it's even colder this
winter.

. . . and if that's true, does that temperature drop translate into
increased stress on water heaters?

People often use "stress" or "strain" to talk about machines. I think
it rarely applies. The water heater elements are on more if the input
water is colder. If the elements are going to wear out, they wear out
that much sooner.

My neighbor's just failed and last week
we had a water main rupture, too. I can't help but wonder if these are
temperature-related failures.

How would you go about measuring the inlet temperature of water? My thought
is to let the cold water run for about 3 minutes to "cold soak" the pipes
(copper, in my case, uninsulated, too) and then measure the temperature at
the tap.

Sounds about right.

You can put the thermomenter in a short glass of water and watch the
temperature as the running water replaces the water in the glass and see
how long it takes until the temp stops dropping. (I know, ony part of
the overflow is old water, but you can figure it out.)

Letting it run for 3 minutes produced 41.5F on two different digital
thermometers so I guess the answer to my question is that yes, the inlet
temperature varies based on the outside temps and quite a bit more than I
would have imagined. FWIW, it's about 29F outside and has been fairly cold
out for a few weeks.

I'd like to be able to monitor and log the inlet temperature, but it would
be hard to automate a 3 minute "cold soak" measurement like the one I just
took. I have a HomeVision home automation controller that would allow me to
attach a TI digital sensor to the inlet pipe where it enters the house in
the basement. I can log those temps to the PC but it would be a)
"contaminated" by the room heat and b) would vary substantially based on how
much water is or isn't flowing past the external sensor. I suppose I can
discard all but the lowest reading and perhaps put some insulation over the
sensor and around the pipe to reduce the effects of room heat on the sensor.

Thanks for your input in advance . . .

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
wrote:

stuff snipped

By now you've probably read about the things I intend to experiment with
to
nurse the heater along through the supercold weather. So far, so good
with
the pressure drop and I am about to do a load of laundry to measure the
fill
rate.

No, I'll go look.
Okay, you basically throttled down the input, and turned down the
water heat. Seems a drastic step to take to reduce the possibility
of thermal shock.

Drastic? DRASTIC????? Adding an expansion or tempering tank or putting fins
on the portion of the pipe from the main shut off/building inlet to the
water heater would be drastic. These are "fixes" that took nothing more
than the twist of a valve or a dial. (-: Not even a full twist, either.

But tinker if you want to. Cant hurt unless you screw up the valve.
I did the throttling bit once with an old gas furnace that was
throwing too much heat up the stack, but that was a different case.
I think you're making too much of it.

Another county heard from. Ironic since I am not advising anyone to do what
I am doing.

I'd agree with your assessment if you were living next door and I could grab
you during the middle of a serious snowstorm and get you to help me replace
the tank while saying "I told you so." But I doubt that any of the posters
who have claimed I am worrying too much is going to be standing beside me
helping me repair things in the bitter cold if they guessed incorrectly.

I got to quiz the plumber as he replaced the unit in my neighbor's home
today and he said they had almost three times the number of emergency calls
about water heaters as they normally do. Something about this incredibly
long, incredibly cold spell is resulting in aging water heaters having
"aneurysms" and failing at an accelerated rate. I've noticed that trend and
want to see if there's any way to keep myself from being that plumber's next
service call.

The shower massager still pulses (turns out to be an excellent informal
pressure gauge by accident!), the toilet's taking a little longer to fill
and the bathroom sink is unusually low-flow and probably indicates
something's amiss somewhere other than the screen. That fixed the low
flow
in the kitchen but not in the bathroom. So reducing pressure as a test
actually had a diagnostic side effect. It really slowed down the flow
from
screens clogged with spooge.

Don't think it was used to reduce "stress."

Probably not, but you're in a cold enough climate that you never know,
IIRC.

Probably to increase capacity for a smaller water heater.

You said "next to" the heater - was it in line before the heater or
after?
Before it might have indeed been a pretempering device.

Before. I removed it when I put a new WH in. It was old, and just
another failure point.

That's interesting because the plumber installed just such device today
before the water heater - it looked like a small propane tank. He said the
expansion tank was now required by code in the county. Might have been the
same for the tank you removed. Did it pass inspection after the change or
has it been inspected? IIRC, Chicago, like NYC, has some of the strictest
building and fire codes in the nation. I seem to recall that both cities
still require armored cable but they may have finally decided to embrace
Romex.

BTW, the water temp at the Lake Michigan intake crib whence my water
originates, is currently 32 F.
Don't know what the cold water Temp in the house is.
Except it's pretty cold.

Jeez, that ISs pretty damn cold! All the articles I've been reading about
burst pipes and water heater failures (sample below)

http://www.debordinc.com/pdf/sept_2010___Newsletter.pdf.

seem to agree that there are things you can do to extend the life of your
heater and turning down the thermostat is one of them.

Or to sell the "tempering" tank.

Yeah, what he just said. (-:

Only reason to have one nowadays is perhaps to "temper" water
for the on-demand type heaters.

Oh, 25 to 50 extra gallons of potable water on premises can't be a bad
idea,
overall. In DC, we worry about dirty bombs and other "cakes baked" by
those
with an anti-government agenda, foreign and domestic.


You're probably better off with a tempering tank to serve that "need."
I did a quick look and didn't see anybody selling them.
You need a tank able to withstand municipal water pressure.
Costly.

Agreed. Right now there's 25G of potable water stored in Nalgene tanks in
the old darkroom (that was converted to an animal hospice). A expansion
tank would insure that water's always fresh but I'd have to be able to pump
it out if the water's cut. But that would be a "drastic" solution. I want
to take some simple precautions to avoid experiencing my neighbor's fate.

Today, the plumber, when briefing my neighbors about their new heater,
warned them that the higher the tank temperature is set, the shorter the
tank's overall lifespan. The hotter the water, the faster corrosion takes
place. Also, the greater the temperature delta, the more the unit cycles
within a given time period. I alread discovered those facts reading about
heater failures, but it was good to know the plumber agreed.

So I rolled back the temperature AND the pressure until the normal weather
returns. Seems like a very simple, very un-drastic precaution to take when
an old, old water heater is exposed to inlet water colder than it's ever
seen in its entire service life. I can live with slightly cooler hot water
for a few days or weeks more. As long as it's warm enough to shower
comfortably (and it is) there's no big whoop. Since I've got a Floodstop
electrical master shut off valve AND a manual one, I am not afraid of
buggering the valve by adjusting it to compensate for the extreme cold.

While I don't think thermal stress is a great contributor to the
*overall*
wearing out of a water heater, what I've read so far convinces me that a
long bout of very unusually cold weather will kill off the weaker water
heaters in the herd. And by age alone, mine's a downer heater.

Speaking of euthanizing water heaters, how about that giraffe? I've
already
read two different versions. Killed by shotgun, killed by boltgun. I
love
the uncertainty of breaking news. (-:

By now you've *had* to have heard of the Copenhagen Zoo's serious public
relations nightmare. They're in more trouble than Chris Christie. (-:

Putting down "excess stock" makes me worry that one day when it's time to
retire the boss will say: "Vic, Bobby - your outtake interviews are in
room
one" and Anton Chigur from "No Country For Old Men" will be waiting in
there
with his compressed air tank. PFFFFT!

(Wouldn't that thing get all matted up with dried brain goo?)

I haven't followed it, but wonder why they don't use birth control to
avoid "excess stock."

So are a lot of people. People are also wondering why the zoo didn't take
up the several valid offers to accept the "surplus" giraffe instead of
chopping it up in front of zoo visitors. I suspect the zoo's director will
soon be retiring or looking for a new job. It's a classic case of
scientists getting so wrapped around the axle that they are unaware of how
their actions will look to non-scientists - in this case zoo patrons who are
far less concerned with inbreeding than they are with the concept of zoos
killing healthy animals that could *easily* have found a home elsewhere.

Saw that movie, but don't remember an air tank.
Sorry (-:

Holy Moly, Vic. He carried that tank (connected to a bolt gun) everywhere.
It WAS the freakin' star of the movie! The killer (Javier Bardeem) went
around using it to pop locks out of doors and brains out of people's heads.
The ghosts of Siskel and Ebert, former Chicagoans and renowned movie critics
are weeping in heaven for you. (-:

--
Bobby G.

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 22:43:45 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
wrote:



Drastic? DRASTIC????? Adding an expansion or tempering tank or putting fins
on the portion of the pipe from the main shut off/building inlet to the
water heater would be drastic. These are "fixes" that took nothing more
than the twist of a valve or a dial. (-: Not even a full twist, either.


Only because I don't fancy throttling stop valves. Most of mine are
gate valves. There was no other word that came mind.
Could have called it "extreme."
Anyway, you did it.
No issue with turning the heat down. Have mine at about 130F all the
time.
BTW, you could just limit how much you open the faucets to get the
same effect. But you'd have to remember to do it.


I got to quiz the plumber as he replaced the unit in my neighbor's home
today and he said they had almost three times the number of emergency calls
about water heaters as they normally do. Something about this incredibly
long, incredibly cold spell is resulting in aging water heaters having
"aneurysms" and failing at an accelerated rate. I've noticed that trend and
want to see if there's any way to keep myself from being that plumber's next
service call.


I've replaced a few, but the always failed during mild weather. Don't
doubt that there are more failures in the winter though.


The shower massager still pulses (turns out to be an excellent informal
pressure gauge by accident!), the toilet's taking a little longer to fill
and the bathroom sink is unusually low-flow and probably indicates
something's amiss somewhere other than the screen. That fixed the low
flow
in the kitchen but not in the bathroom. So reducing pressure as a test
actually had a diagnostic side effect. It really slowed down the flow
from
screens clogged with spooge.


The toilet shouldn't be affected, unless you throttled the main valve.
I assumed you just throttled in heater inlet.


Before. I removed it when I put a new WH in. It was old, and just
another failure point.

That's interesting because the plumber installed just such device today
before the water heater - it looked like a small propane tank. He said the
expansion tank was now required by code in the county. Might have been the
same for the tank you removed. Did it pass inspection after the change or
has it been inspected? IIRC, Chicago, like NYC, has some of the strictest
building and fire codes in the nation. I seem to recall that both cities
still require armored cable but they may have finally decided to embrace
Romex.

No, it was a tempering tank. Same capacity, but plain uninsulated
tank.
A couple years ago I replaced the tank in this house, and didn't use
an expansion tank. Hell no, I didn't have it inspected.
Chicago code may require expansion tanks for new construction.
Not sure. I didn't notice any in the box store where I bought the
water heater.


Agreed. Right now there's 25G of potable water stored in Nalgene tanks in
the old darkroom (that was converted to an animal hospice). A expansion
tank would insure that water's always fresh but I'd have to be able to pump
it out if the water's cut. But that would be a "drastic" solution. I want
to take some simple precautions to avoid experiencing my neighbor's fate.

Today, the plumber, when briefing my neighbors about their new heater,
warned them that the higher the tank temperature is set, the shorter the
tank's overall lifespan. The hotter the water, the faster corrosion takes
place. Also, the greater the temperature delta, the more the unit cycles
within a given time period. I alread discovered those facts reading about
heater failures, but it was good to know the plumber agreed.


Yabbut, keeping the temp down to "acceptable" is normal energy
conservation (money), like turning off lights.


So I rolled back the temperature AND the pressure until the normal weather
returns. Seems like a very simple, very un-drastic precaution to take when
an old, old water heater is exposed to inlet water colder than it's ever
seen in its entire service life. I can live with slightly cooler hot water
for a few days or weeks more. As long as it's warm enough to shower
comfortably (and it is) there's no big whoop. Since I've got a Floodstop
electrical master shut off valve AND a manual one, I am not afraid of
buggering the valve by adjusting it to compensate for the extreme cold.


If you can live with it in the winter, summer is a breeze.
Why not just leave the temp turned down?

While I don't think thermal stress is a great contributor to the
*overall*
wearing out of a water heater, what I've read so far convinces me that a
long bout of very unusually cold weather will kill off the weaker water
heaters in the herd. And by age alone, mine's a downer heater.


Around here, by the time a WH fails, it's best to replace it anyway,
as it's all scaled up and inefficient. Cycle of life.



I haven't followed it, but wonder why they don't use birth control to
avoid "excess stock."

So are a lot of people. People are also wondering why the zoo didn't take
up the several valid offers to accept the "surplus" giraffe instead of
chopping it up in front of zoo visitors. I suspect the zoo's director will
soon be retiring or looking for a new job. It's a classic case of
scientists getting so wrapped around the axle that they are unaware of how
their actions will look to non-scientists - in this case zoo patrons who are
far less concerned with inbreeding than they are with the concept of zoos
killing healthy animals that could *easily* have found a home elsewhere.


I saw exactly one brief new clip about that. It was a stupid move.

Saw that movie, but don't remember an air tank.
Sorry (-:

Holy Moly, Vic. He carried that tank (connected to a bolt gun) everywhere.
It WAS the freakin' star of the movie! The killer (Javier Bardeem) went
around using it to pop locks out of doors and brains out of people's heads.
The ghosts of Siskel and Ebert, former Chicagoans and renowned movie critics
are weeping in heaven for you. (-:

I went and looked at some Youtube clips. I found it a contrived,
cartoonish and forgettble flick. Probably because of the air tank,
which is ridiculous. Maybe I was in the wrong mood when I watched it.
Might watch it again.
Mostly remembered Josh Brolin's performance, as I was unfamiliar with
him. I'm waaay behind on movies.
I was more in synch with Siskel.

On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 10:43:45 PM UTC-5, Robert Green wrote:
"Vic Smith" wrote in message

wrote:



stuff snipped



By now you've probably read about the things I intend to experiment with

to

nurse the heater along through the supercold weather. So far, so good

with

the pressure drop and I am about to do a load of laundry to measure the

fill

rate.



No, I'll go look.

Okay, you basically throttled down the input, and turned down the

water heat. Seems a drastic step to take to reduce the possibility

of thermal shock.



Drastic? DRASTIC????? Adding an expansion or tempering tank or putting fins

on the portion of the pipe from the main shut off/building inlet to the

water heater would be drastic. These are "fixes" that took nothing more

than the twist of a valve or a dial. (-: Not even a full twist, either.



But tinker if you want to. Cant hurt unless you screw up the valve.

I did the throttling bit once with an old gas furnace that was

throwing too much heat up the stack, but that was a different case.

I think you're making too much of it.



Another county heard from. Ironic since I am not advising anyone to do what

I am doing.



I'd agree with your assessment if you were living next door and I could grab

you during the middle of a serious snowstorm and get you to help me replace

the tank while saying "I told you so." But I doubt that any of the posters

who have claimed I am worrying too much is going to be standing beside me

helping me repair things in the bitter cold if they guessed incorrectly.



I got to quiz the plumber as he replaced the unit in my neighbor's home

today and he said they had almost three times the number of emergency calls

about water heaters as they normally do. Something about this incredibly

long, incredibly cold spell is resulting in aging water heaters having

"aneurysms" and failing at an accelerated rate. I've noticed that trend and

want to see if there's any way to keep myself from being that plumber's next

service call.



The shower massager still pulses (turns out to be an excellent informal

pressure gauge by accident!), the toilet's taking a little longer to fill

and the bathroom sink is unusually low-flow and probably indicates

something's amiss somewhere other than the screen. That fixed the low

flow

in the kitchen but not in the bathroom. So reducing pressure as a test

actually had a diagnostic side effect. It really slowed down the flow

from

screens clogged with spooge.



Don't think it was used to reduce "stress."



Probably not, but you're in a cold enough climate that you never know,

IIRC.



Probably to increase capacity for a smaller water heater.



You said "next to" the heater - was it in line before the heater or

after?

Before it might have indeed been a pretempering device.



Before. I removed it when I put a new WH in. It was old, and just

another failure point.



That's interesting because the plumber installed just such device today

before the water heater - it looked like a small propane tank. He said the

expansion tank was now required by code in the county. Might have been the

same for the tank you removed. Did it pass inspection after the change or

has it been inspected? IIRC, Chicago, like NYC, has some of the strictest

building and fire codes in the nation. I seem to recall that both cities

still require armored cable but they may have finally decided to embrace

Romex.



BTW, the water temp at the Lake Michigan intake crib whence my water

originates, is currently 32 F.

Don't know what the cold water Temp in the house is.

Except it's pretty cold.



Jeez, that ISs pretty damn cold! All the articles I've been reading about

burst pipes and water heater failures (sample below)



http://www.debordinc.com/pdf/sept_2010___Newsletter.pdf.



seem to agree that there are things you can do to extend the life of your

heater and turning down the thermostat is one of them.



Or to sell the "tempering" tank.



Yeah, what he just said. (-:



Only reason to have one nowadays is perhaps to "temper" water

for the on-demand type heaters.



Oh, 25 to 50 extra gallons of potable water on premises can't be a bad

idea,

overall. In DC, we worry about dirty bombs and other "cakes baked" by

those

with an anti-government agenda, foreign and domestic.





You're probably better off with a tempering tank to serve that "need."

I did a quick look and didn't see anybody selling them.

You need a tank able to withstand municipal water pressure.

Costly.



Agreed. Right now there's 25G of potable water stored in Nalgene tanks in

the old darkroom (that was converted to an animal hospice). A expansion

tank would insure that water's always fresh but I'd have to be able to pump

it out if the water's cut. But that would be a "drastic" solution. I want

to take some simple precautions to avoid experiencing my neighbor's fate.



Today, the plumber, when briefing my neighbors about their new heater,

warned them that the higher the tank temperature is set, the shorter the

tank's overall lifespan. The hotter the water, the faster corrosion takes

place. Also, the greater the temperature delta, the more the unit cycles

within a given time period. I alread discovered those facts reading about

heater failures, but it was good to know the plumber agreed.



So I rolled back the temperature AND the pressure until the normal weather

returns. Seems like a very simple, very un-drastic precaution to take when

an old, old water heater is exposed to inlet water colder than it's ever

seen in its entire service life. I can live with slightly cooler hot water

for a few days or weeks more. As long as it's warm enough to shower

comfortably (and it is) there's no big whoop. Since I've got a Floodstop

electrical master shut off valve AND a manual one, I am not afraid of

buggering the valve by adjusting it to compensate for the extreme cold.



While I don't think thermal stress is a great contributor to the

*overall*

wearing out of a water heater, what I've read so far convinces me that a

long bout of very unusually cold weather will kill off the weaker water

heaters in the herd. And by age alone, mine's a downer heater.



Speaking of euthanizing water heaters, how about that giraffe? I've

already

read two different versions. Killed by shotgun, killed by boltgun. I

love

the uncertainty of breaking news. (-:



By now you've *had* to have heard of the Copenhagen Zoo's serious public

relations nightmare. They're in more trouble than Chris Christie. (-:



Putting down "excess stock" makes me worry that one day when it's time to

retire the boss will say: "Vic, Bobby - your outtake interviews are in

room

one" and Anton Chigur from "No Country For Old Men" will be waiting in

there

with his compressed air tank. PFFFFT!



(Wouldn't that thing get all matted up with dried brain goo?)



I haven't followed it, but wonder why they don't use birth control to

avoid "excess stock."



So are a lot of people. People are also wondering why the zoo didn't take

up the several valid offers to accept the "surplus" giraffe instead of

chopping it up in front of zoo visitors. I suspect the zoo's director will

soon be retiring or looking for a new job. It's a classic case of

scientists getting so wrapped around the axle that they are unaware of how

their actions will look to non-scientists - in this case zoo patrons who are

far less concerned with inbreeding than they are with the concept of zoos

killing healthy animals that could *easily* have found a home elsewhere.


I don't see how they could be unaware. They were given a petition with
27,000 signatures saying not to kill the giraffe. The other thing I
don't see anyone talking much about is if they were so concerned about
inbreeding, they could have neutered the animal. The zoo did have some
lame excuse about that, saying that if you anesthetize a giraffe, it
may fall down and break it's neck. Seems the *chance* of that happening
is a hell of a lot better than just killing it. This is about as
dumb as it gets. It's just a bunch of eggheads insistant on following
the rules they've made up. When you have responsible zoos in other countries
willing to take the animal, eg England, no excuse for what they did.

IMO, until those responsible are fired, everyone should boycott the
zoo and keep the pressure up.

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
wrote:

much inline snippage to remove first generations comments

Drastic? DRASTIC????? Adding an expansion or tempering tank or putting
fins
on the portion of the pipe from the main shut off/building inlet to the
water heater would be drastic. These are "fixes" that took nothing more
than the twist of a valve or a dial. (-: Not even a full twist,
either.


Only because I don't fancy throttling stop valves. Most of mine are
gate valves. There was no other word that came mind.
Could have called it "extreme."
Anyway, you did it.

Everyone's entitled to their preferences. I don't like torquing valves that
have no backup. I also don't like tripping breakers deliberately but I
concede that it can be helpful in situations. I really don't understand why
some people have taken exception to my wanting to try protect my creaky old
water heater from a very unusual weather situation that clearly has
seriously negative effects on plumbing.

No issue with turning the heat down. Have mine at about 130F all the
time.
BTW, you could just limit how much you open the faucets to get the
same effect. But you'd have to remember to do it.

Yeah, remember. That'll work. NOT (-: I can't remember if I've taken a
pill 30 seconds later. So that's not a workable option.

I got to quiz the plumber as he replaced the unit in my neighbor's home
today and he said they had almost three times the number of emergency
calls
about water heaters as they normally do. Something about this incredibly
long, incredibly cold spell is resulting in aging water heaters having
"aneurysms" and failing at an accelerated rate. I've noticed that trend
and
want to see if there's any way to keep myself from being that plumber's
next
service call.

I've replaced a few, but the always failed during mild weather. Don't
doubt that there are more failures in the winter though.

At least that is what the plumber said. My point is that this is a very
unusual winter and the inlet water is probably colder than it's ever been.
You've owned lots of cars. Tell me what happens when you take a car that's
logged 100K miles at no greater than 3100RPM and you redline it? That's
when I first learned about pistons having "carbon ridges."

The toilet shouldn't be affected, unless you throttled the main valve.
I assumed you just throttled in heater inlet.

Actually, I throttled the main valve because I didn't want to create an
unequal pressure differential. Lowering the pressure at the main shut off
means that the balance of the hot and cold water valves I have set at the
washing machine will stay the same. I also did it that way because the main
shut off valve has an electric backup, and I agree with your belief not to
mess with a valve that has no backup unless you have to. The water heater
inlet valve has no backup and is probably crusted up inside. Not a good
candidate for tweaking.

Before. I removed it when I put a new WH in. It was old, and just
another failure point.

That's interesting because the plumber installed just such device today
before the water heater - it looked like a small propane tank. He said
the
expansion tank was now required by code in the county. Might have been
the
same for the tank you removed. Did it pass inspection after the change
or
has it been inspected? IIRC, Chicago, like NYC, has some of the
strictest
building and fire codes in the nation. I seem to recall that both cities
still require armored cable but they may have finally decided to embrace
Romex.

No, it was a tempering tank. Same capacity, but plain uninsulated
tank.

Well, sounds like someone was concerned with the inlet temperature at some
point. (-: Does your water it look anything like this - sounds ancient!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ru...r_H eater.JPG

(-;

A couple years ago I replaced the tank in this house, and didn't use
an expansion tank. Hell no, I didn't have it inspected.
Chicago code may require expansion tanks for new construction.
Not sure. I didn't notice any in the box store where I bought the
water heater.

It's something I'll have to look into. I don't have one now and am not sure
why one is needed. I forgot to ask the plumber about it. That damn memory
thing again!

The hotter the water, the faster corrosion takes
place. Also, the greater the temperature delta, the more the unit cycles
within a given time period. I already discovered those facts reading
about
heater failures, but it was good to know the plumber agreed.

Yabbut, keeping the temp down to "acceptable" is normal energy
conservation (money), like turning off lights.

Agreed. We had jacked up the heat when we had company because the third
person to shower didn't get the "premium" hot water. You just reminded me
to add another HomeVision temperature probe to the hot water outlet pipe.
Thanks!.

So I rolled back the temperature AND the pressure until the normal
weather
returns. Seems like a very simple, very un-drastic precaution to take
when
an old, old water heater is exposed to inlet water colder than it's ever
seen in its entire service life. I can live with slightly cooler hot
water
for a few days or weeks more. As long as it's warm enough to shower
comfortably (and it is) there's no big whoop. Since I've got a Floodstop
electrical master shut off valve AND a manual one, I am not afraid of
buggering the valve by adjusting it to compensate for the extreme cold.


If you can live with it in the winter, summer is a breeze.
Why not just leave the temp turned down?

Indeed. Why not? We may boost it again when company comes but it seems
perfectly livable where it is now, which is 125F or maybe less. The truth
is that until my neighbor's heater failed, I didn't even think about the
very cold inlet water and the possibility that might trigger a failure.

While I don't think thermal stress is a great contributor to the
*overall*
wearing out of a water heater, what I've read so far convinces me that
a
long bout of very unusually cold weather will kill off the weaker
water
heaters in the herd. And by age alone, mine's a downer heater.

So are a lot of people. People are also wondering why the zoo didn't
take
up the several valid offers to accept the "surplus" giraffe instead of
chopping it up in front of zoo visitors. I suspect the zoo's director
will
soon be retiring or looking for a new job. It's a classic case of
scientists getting so wrapped around the axle that they are unaware of
how
their actions will look to non-scientists - in this case zoo patrons who
are
far less concerned with inbreeding than they are with the concept of zoos
killing healthy animals that could *easily* have found a home elsewhere.


I saw exactly one brief new clip about that. It was a stupid move.

It was more than that, it was a stupid ballet. One move after the other got
them in deeper and deeper. I suspect even now the director doesn't think
anything noteworthy occurred. It's all over Google News along with some
pretty gruesome pictures. Little 2 year old Marius being "parted out" to
the lions in big, recognizable giraffe chunks. While I am generally
pro-science, sometimes scientists can get themselves locked deep within a
bubble that impairs their thinking.

Holy Moly, Vic. He carried that tank (connected to a bolt gun)
everywhere.
It WAS the freakin' star of the movie! The killer (Javier Bardeem) went
around using it to pop locks out of doors and brains out of people's
heads.
The ghosts of Siskel and Ebert, former Chicagoans and renowned movie
critics
are weeping in heaven for you. (-:

I went and looked at some Youtube clips. I found it a contrived,
cartoonish and forgettble flick. Probably because of the air tank,
which is ridiculous.

No one ever said it would work! There were several long threads about how
unlikely it was that those locked lock cylinders would punch out in the
movie groups. I didn't realize James Brolin had been killed until I hit
rewind.

I thought the best part was when his wife tells the killer "The coin ain't
got nothing to do with it - it's all you" when he offers her the chance to
win back her life with a coin flip. I had a kid working for me at the time
who thought the movie was the finest ever made, full of deep meaning and
philosophical truth. I'm not sure but I sure have discussed to it death. I
would NOT have taken the water back to the bandido, although it probably
didn't matter much anyway because the money bag was bugged.

Maybe I was in the wrong mood when I watched it.
Might watch it again.
Mostly remembered Josh Brolin's performance, as I was unfamiliar with
him. I'm waaay behind on movies.

Me too. Just remember the guy with the tank is supposed to be (I am told)
the persona of an uncaring and random Death, one who can't be bargained with
unless He chooses to offer you a wager. It at least makes a *little* sense
from the perspective. My wife thinks the villian was cartoonish and along
the lines of the shark with the "candygram" that used to be on early
episodes of SNL.

I was more in synch with Siskel.

Yeah, but Ebert was perversely reliable. If he *liked* something I knew I
wouldn't. (-:

--
Bobby G.

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 18:46:40 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
I really don't understand why
some people have taken exception to my wanting to try protect my creaky old
water heater from a very unusual weather situation that clearly has
seriously negative effects on plumbing.


I didn't notice anybody take exception. You're too sensitive,



At least that is what the plumber said. My point is that this is a very
unusual winter and the inlet water is probably colder than it's ever been.
You've owned lots of cars. Tell me what happens when you take a car that's
logged 100K miles at no greater than 3100RPM and you redline it? That's
when I first learned about pistons having "carbon ridges."


You'll actually have a "metal" ridge there. At least I did on the 352
I rebuilt. Had to rent a ridge reamer.



Well, sounds like someone was concerned with the inlet temperature at some
point. (-: Does your water it look anything like this - sounds ancient!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ru...r_H eater.JPG


No, just a steel tank. I really think the purpose of that tank was to
increase the recovery time of the heater, and not to relieve thermal
stress.



It was more than that, it was a stupid ballet. One move after the other got
them in deeper and deeper. I suspect even now the director doesn't think
anything noteworthy occurred. It's all over Google News along with some
pretty gruesome pictures. Little 2 year old Marius being "parted out" to
the lions in big, recognizable giraffe chunks. While I am generally
pro-science, sometimes scientists can get themselves locked deep within a
bubble that impairs their thinking.


That's a circus I missed.



Me too. Just remember the guy with the tank is supposed to be (I am told)
the persona of an uncaring and random Death, one who can't be bargained with
unless He chooses to offer you a wager. It at least makes a *little* sense
from the perspective. My wife thinks the villian was cartoonish and along
the lines of the shark with the "candygram" that used to be on early
episodes of SNL.

I was more in synch with Siskel.

Yeah, but Ebert was perversely reliable. If he *liked* something I knew I
wouldn't. (-:

I went to the "art" theater when I worked downtown based on his "four
star" reviews a couple times. One flick was mediocre, the second
atrocious.
...I looked and found one. "The Grey Fox." He gave 3 1/2 stars.
I found that one mediocre.
The other was a subtitled French flick.
After those two Siskel had to agree with him before I considered it.

pressure tanks are installed to protect water heaters and prevent pressure release valves opening when water mains have a check valve so water from say a swimming pool being filled cant siphon back in the mains and add contaminated water to the main in case of a water main break......

I do beleve in common sense actions to protect homes.

but all this effort to protect a old water heater might be over kill...

if its that old its probably best to just replace it before failure.

of course I tend to replace car batteries befor they leave me stranded, and old water heaters before they leak......

in both cases its better to replace when cnvenient for me, rater than waiting for a big leak or getting stranded when in zero weater a vehicle wouldnt start..

incidently I discovered replacing car batteries at 4 years old helps prevent alternator failures.

but one can spend so much time and effort trying to get the longest life out of everything its just not worth the effort..

"bob haller" wrote in message
news:bcf69c22-bade-4705-b6e1-

I do beleve in common sense actions to protect homes.
but all this effort to protect a old water heater might be over kill...

"All this effort?" I turned the main shut off valve less than half a turn.
Then I turned the water heater temp control less than 30 degrees. Why do
people assume there's all this effort involved? I have to wonder.

I didn't have to eat my sled dogs or ponies on the perilous journey to the
basement because I ran out of food like Captain Scott:

http://www.rmg.co.uk/explore/sea-and...-leaders/scott

Cutting back on both the operating temperature and overall water pressure
took all of one minute. Jeez. Where's all the effort some people seem to
believe is involved in trying to protect an old water heater from some very
unusual weather conditions? To me it's just elementary to try to
compensate for conditions that the water heater has never before faced over
its entire service life and will never likely face again.

Just remember how many people in authority poo-pooed the engineers that
recommended that Challenger's flight be postponed until the very rare cold
snap had ended. Extreme cold weather has consequences. In NASA's case,
fatal ones.

Trying to reduce the effect the extreme cold might have on an old water
heater seems to me to be simply prudent behavior, especially since the steps
I took were so damn easy. Twisting a valve and a dial both less than 1/2 a
turn. What is it that Trader says?

"Good grief!" (-:

--
Bobby G.

"bob haller" wrote in message
...
pressure tanks are installed to protect water heaters and prevent pressure
release valves opening when water mains have a check valve so water from say
a swimming pool being filled cant siphon back in the mains and add
contaminated water to the main in case of a water main break......

But I don't have a swimming pool! And I obviously don't have a check valve
on the water line coming into the house because the recent water main break
completely drained the house water lines. That wouldn't have happened with
a check valve in place.

I expect I'll have to call the county inspector to find out why the
expansion tanks are now required by code.

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message news:7400b192-1767-42a8-bcf3-

stuff snipped

scientists getting so wrapped around the axle that they are unaware of
how
their actions will look to non-scientists - in this case zoo patrons who
are
far less concerned with inbreeding than they are with the concept of
zoos
killing healthy animals that could *easily* have found a home elsewhere.

I don't see how they could be unaware.

Agreed. I probably should have said "unconcerned" - they had to be aware,
they just didn't care.

They were given a petition with
27,000 signatures saying not to kill the giraffe. The other thing I
don't see anyone talking much about is if they were so concerned about
inbreeding, they could have neutered the animal. The zoo did have some
lame excuse about that, saying that if you anesthetize a giraffe, it
may fall down and break it's neck. Seems the *chance* of that happening
is a hell of a lot better than just killing it.

My wife got a kick of your statement that basically says "We needed to kill
it to keep it from being hurt." How much worse can you be hurt than being
killed? Excuses don't get much lamer than that.

This is about as dumb as it gets. It's just a bunch of eggheads insistant
on following
the rules they've made up.

Yep. They certainly did not come across well during this incident. And
they kept insisting that the rules demanded the death of this young giraffe,
Marius. Why name him if you're intent on killing him? Just makes it that
much more gruesome, IMHO.

When you have responsible zoos in other countries
willing to take the animal, eg England, no excuse for what they did.

There were a number of places that came forward to no avail. It sure seems
to the untrained eye that they wanted that giraffe dead in the worst way and
worked around every possible chance to save his life. I wouldn't be
surprised if some angry Dane chops up the zoo director and feeds HIM to the
lions, all the time saying "But it's Nature's way!"

A very long time ago my driving ed instructor said "When I showed films of
gruesome car wrecks with people parts lying on the roadway to try to get
them to slow down when driving, the kids yawned. But when they saw a film
of an accident where a cattle truck was hit by another truck and wounded
cattle were all over the highway, the kids starting screaming and wailing
and were overcome with grief." Dismembered humans didn't affect them
anywhere near as much as dismembered animals. I think the Copenhagen zoo
director is in the process of making a similar discovery about human nature.

IMO, until those responsible are fired, everyone should boycott the
zoo and keep the pressure up.

I suspect they will. I can't see the director keeping his job, but stranger
things have happened. Perhaps it will result in the zoo association
rewriting their rulebook about how to deal with "excess animals."

--
Bobby G.

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:16:39 -0800 (PST), bob haller
wrote:

I do beleve in common sense actions to protect homes.

but all this effort to protect a old water heater might be over kill...

if its that old its probably best to just replace it before failure.

of course I tend to replace car batteries befor they leave me stranded, and old water heaters before they leak......

in both cases its better to replace when cnvenient for me, rater than waiting for a big leak or getting stranded when in zero weater a vehicle wouldnt start..

incidently I discovered replacing car batteries at 4 years old helps prevent alternator failures.

but one can spend so much time and effort trying to get the longest life out of everything its just not worth the effort..

I wait until a tank breaks. The tank will just leak down into the
floor drain. A bad battery shows up in the winter. Slow crank.
Last one I bought lasted at least 6 years. Car broke down first, then
my son put it in his car.
Water heater was here when I bought the house, then it lasted
15 more years.
I have put in a couple alternators, but don't think it was
battery-related. Batteries tested okay.
GM cars don't have long lasting alts.

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:09:58 -0800 (PST), bob haller
wrote:

pressure tanks are installed to protect water heaters and prevent pressure release valves opening when water mains have a check valve so water from say a swimming pool being filled cant siphon back in the mains and add contaminated water to the main in case of a water main break......

Yep. But they don't have them in my location.

"micky" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 11:40:30 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

I am wondering if prolonged cold spells substantially reduce the
temperature
of the water entering a house from the city water service . . .

I'm sure. The water coming from the cold water faucet is colder in the
winter than in the summer. And I've noticed it's even colder this
winter.

. . . and if that's true, does that temperature drop translate into
increased stress on water heaters?

People often use "stress" or "strain" to talk about machines. I think
it rarely applies.

I disagree. Dad was a materials science engineer for the Navy and spent
lots of time deliberately stressing equipment to determine its failure
point. Thermal stress testing is an integral part of manufacturing.
Virtually every device I know of has specified high and low temperatures of
operation listed in the manual. That's because so many things behave
differently in the extreme cold (plastic gets brittle, batteries fail) or
heat (plastic becomes soft and batteries boil over) than they do at normal
room temperatures.

http://www.google.com/search?q=thermal+stress

Will give you some idea how much study is devoted to the topic. It's a
whole separate branch of mechanical engineering AND materials science.

Water heater tanks expand and contract as the internal temperature changes
and each expansion causes a slight degree of fatigue on the metal. The
greater the difference between the tank interior temperature and the inlet
water temperature, the greater the stress on the materials involved. Put on
some goggles. Go take a plain glass bottle, fill it with boiling water and
plunge it into 41F water. That concludes today's demonstration of thermal
stress. (-:

Am I being overly cautious? Maybe. But with a water main breaking on the
street in the same week my neighbor's water heater failed, I've got a right
to be a little worried.

The water heater elements are on more if the input
water is colder.

And that temperature difference results in increased mechanical stress on
the elements as well because they are contracting and expanding more than
then do with warmer inlet water. It's not just the number of extra cycles,
it's the exposure to far greater cold than usual. The greater the delta,
the more mechanical stress on the elements and every other component of the
heater.

If the elements are going to wear out, they wear out
that much sooner.

That's true, of course but the current weather conditions are subjecting an
old tank (it's 18 years old) to stress levels not seen during its long
service life. I'm perfectly comfortable with the assumption it needs to be
replaced soon. But I want that to be in the warmer weather. Changing it
out right now would be drastic, expensive and foolish because it's
impossible to get a bargain from a plumber on parts or labor because the
current demand is nearly insatiable. My neighbor had to call 10 places to
find one that one do it the NEXT day and even they lied to him. It took two
days.

I've got a working water heater now showing no signs of distress other than
the noises it was making when I initiated a 20G fill of all hot water for
the washing machine. I considered that a clue that it might be a good idea
to throttle back the heat setting and the water pressure for now to reduce
how drastic the change of temperature is within the tank.

It's taken hours to explain it but less than a minute to do. Despite the
assurances I'm wasting my time, very little of it was actually consumed and
no one, except Vic, has provided a reason (possible valve failure) why
someone shouldn't reduce the temperature setting and trim the inlet flow
until the weather and the inlet water temperature warms up.

Despite the surprising amount of resistance I've been reading, I am sure at
least one person's already either turned down the heat or the water flow -
just to be on the safe side. (-:

FWIW, just a few degrees outside of normal operating range can have drastic
consequences:

Constance Tipper of Cambridge University demonstrated that the fractures
were not initiated by welding, but instead by the grade of steel used, which
suffered from embrittlement. She discovered that the ships in the North
Atlantic were exposed to temperatures that could fall below a critical point
when the mechanism of failure changed from ductile to brittle, and thus the
hull could fracture rather easily.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_ship

The SSN Thresher was also the victim of the cold, but in a more obtuse way:

When the high pressure air that was used to blow the tanks left the
storage banks, it passes through the control valves that keep it in the
banks under pressure. Anytime a compressed gas expands, it cools rapidly. As
the very cold air passed through the valves, frost began to form due to the
presence of moisture in the air. It very quickly built up (a matter of a few
seconds) and froze solid in the valves. The solid ice stopped the air just
as effectively as shutting the valves, thus the Thresher was unable to blow
her tanks.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08593b.htm

I would never underestimate the effects of extreme heat and cold on
mechanical systems. Hell, I drove a Jag MarkX that had a terrible tendency
to overheat in warm weather and the only way to stop it was to shut off the
A/C, pop up the bonnet air scoop and run the heater full blast. That was
usually in the middle of the hottest days in the summer. It's been my
experience that cars designed outside the US don't quite operate as they
should in the climate extremes of the US. It took a long time for the
Japanese to understand the need for Desert Valley cooling capacity in
passenger cars.

Of course, when you consider the VW Bug's absymal heating system, it might
be true that some cars just didn't operate as they should *anywhere*
regardless of climate. You would think with all that snow and cold, they
should have built a working heater.

Speaking of snow and cold, it's 2AM in DC and it's snowing like a mother.

--
Bobby G.


--
Bobby G.

On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 11:18:47 PM UTC-5, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message news:7400b192-1767-42a8-bcf3-



stuff snipped



scientists getting so wrapped around the axle that they are unaware of

how

their actions will look to non-scientists - in this case zoo patrons who

are

far less concerned with inbreeding than they are with the concept of

zoos

killing healthy animals that could *easily* have found a home elsewhere.



I don't see how they could be unaware.



Agreed. I probably should have said "unconcerned" - they had to be aware,

they just didn't care.



They were given a petition with

27,000 signatures saying not to kill the giraffe. The other thing I

don't see anyone talking much about is if they were so concerned about

inbreeding, they could have neutered the animal. The zoo did have some

lame excuse about that, saying that if you anesthetize a giraffe, it

may fall down and break it's neck. Seems the *chance* of that happening

is a hell of a lot better than just killing it.



My wife got a kick of your statement that basically says "We needed to kill

it to keep it from being hurt." How much worse can you be hurt than being

killed? Excuses don't get much lamer than that.



This is about as dumb as it gets. It's just a bunch of eggheads insistant

on following

the rules they've made up.



Yep. They certainly did not come across well during this incident. And

they kept insisting that the rules demanded the death of this young giraffe,

Marius. Why name him if you're intent on killing him? Just makes it that

much more gruesome, IMHO.



When you have responsible zoos in other countries

willing to take the animal, eg England, no excuse for what they did.



There were a number of places that came forward to no avail. It sure seems

to the untrained eye that they wanted that giraffe dead in the worst way and

worked around every possible chance to save his life. I wouldn't be

surprised if some angry Dane chops up the zoo director and feeds HIM to the

lions, all the time saying "But it's Nature's way!"



A very long time ago my driving ed instructor said "When I showed films of

gruesome car wrecks with people parts lying on the roadway to try to get

them to slow down when driving, the kids yawned. But when they saw a film

of an accident where a cattle truck was hit by another truck and wounded

cattle were all over the highway, the kids starting screaming and wailing

and were overcome with grief." Dismembered humans didn't affect them

anywhere near as much as dismembered animals. I think the Copenhagen zoo

director is in the process of making a similar discovery about human nature.



Another sign of how dumb they are is the zoo officials are now
running around saying they are shocked that they are getting death
threats. Really? You get a petition with 27,000 signatures on it
trying to save the life of a cute animal
and you're shocked that in all those people there are some who will resort
to death threats in today's world? Don't they have PETA and/or similar
groups over there? And to top it off, they even made a spectacle of
cutting up the dead giraffe, like they wanted to make a point and
really stick it in everyone's face that they could do as they please.
IMO, those idiots should not even be allowed to have pets, let alone
run a zoo.

On the other side, you also have some people who are loons. I googled
to see if there was a petition you could sign to get those responsible
fired. Instead I found a petition with 95,000 signatures to *close*
the zoo. One would think the better solution is to replace those
responsible. If they actually close it, it could lead to more animals
being put down, or being in worse conditions, because they may not be
able to find suitable zoos to take all of them.

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 18:46:40 -0500, "Robert Green"
I really don't understand why
some people have taken exception to my wanting to try protect my creaky
old
water heater from a very unusual weather situation that clearly has
seriously negative effects on plumbing.


I didn't notice anybody take exception. You're too sensitive,

Yes, I am always "making mountains out of molehills." At least that's what
DadioH told me.
(-:

You've owned lots of cars. Tell me what happens when you take a car
that's
logged 100K miles at no greater than 3100RPM and you redline it? That's
when I first learned about pistons having "carbon ridges."


You'll actually have a "metal" ridge there. At least I did on the 352
I rebuilt. Had to rent a ridge reamer.

Well, if you redline a car that has piston ridge what happens is that the
pistons travel just a bit more than they ever have before and they knock
into that ridge with some interesting consequences. (-: None of them good.

Well, sounds like someone was concerned with the inlet temperature at
some
point. (-: Does your water it look anything like this - sounds ancient!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ru..._Automatic_Wat
er_Heater.JPG


No, just a steel tank. I really think the purpose of that tank was to
increase the recovery time of the heater, and not to relieve thermal
stress.

We'll probably never know for sure.


I went to the "art" theater when I worked downtown based on his "four
star" reviews a couple times. One flick was mediocre, the second
atrocious.
..I looked and found one. "The Grey Fox." He gave 3 1/2 stars.
I found that one mediocre.
The other was a subtitled French flick.
After those two Siskel had to agree with him before I considered it.

I was dragged to a film called "Daughters of the Dust." My impression was
that if you forced POW's to watch it, it would be considered a violation of
the Geneva Convention. It was not just a hyper-chick flick, it was a black
chick flick. Not to sound racist but there wasn't a second in the film that
I could relate to. It was about . . . I don't think I ever knew what it was
about but it certainly was a wake-up call to not to ever trust Ebert again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daughters_of_the_Dust

The critic Roger Ebert wrote of the use of Gullah creole,
"The fact that some of the dialogue is deliberately difficult is not
frustrating, but comforting; we relax like children at a family picnic, not
understanding everything, but feeling at home with the expression of it."