On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 09:17:43 -0800, makolber wrote:

I'm still wondering what problem you are trying to solve.
Is your WiFi not working properly or are you just concerned
about reading -88 dBm noise level on the analyzer?

Hi Mark,

I'm trying to make the numbers add up, and, if I can lower noise,
then I can raise signal strength correspondingly. That gives me
a better signal-to-noise ratio, which is ultimately what I'm after.

Each time I've improved on my noise figure, my corresponding
quality figures go up as shown below:

Here are my signal quality figures that aren't too good:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7419/1...26611246_o.jpg

Here are better quality figures from that same WiFi router:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7380/1...0692ea50_o.png

So, what I'm trying to do, ultimately, is increase Internet speeds
(here are my current speeds):
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3743/1...187217bd_o.png

My speeds were half that, with a lesser antenna (NanoBridge M2),
so, everything I do to signal quality improves Internet speeds.

In short, I simply want faster Internet (doesn't everyone?).

On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 09:17:43 -0800, makolber wrote:

are you just concerned about reading -88 dBm noise level on the analyzer?
I wouldn't be surprised to read -88 dBm from a high gain antenna.
Do you think that is abnormal or is there some other problem?

Hi Mark,

I *am* a bit concerned with the -88dBm noise level, but, I do agree
with you that I have a high-gain antenna and high power transmitter
with decent receive sensitivity.

What concerns me most about the -88dBm noise is that some of my
neighbors, using the exact same equipment and connected to the
same WISP AP, have 9 dB less noise!

Since every 3dB is doubling (or halving), I have 8 times the noise
that they have! That's mostly what concerns me.

It would be nice if others on a.h.r listed their noise figures, so,
we could take an informal survey.

My modem (actually it's a tranceiver, but, it's just like a modem)
is where I measure all this noise.

Can you guys get noise figures out of a cable or DSL modem?

The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 12/19/2013 10:30 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 22:59:04 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

When I was in college you could spot a nerd because he had a
pocket protector and a rectangular box of punch cards under one
arm. Pocket calculators came out later, cost around $400.00 and
had nerds drooling over them. I was out of college when I saw my
first HP calculator but I still had boxes of punch cards. ^_^

Yeah, that was the theory but it didn't quite work at Cal Poly
Pomona in the late 1960's. Among other divisions, Cal Poly had an
engineering skool and an ABM (agricultural business management)
skool. One would assume that the engineering students carried
slide rules and punched cards, and the ABM students looked like TV
cowboys. Nope. The engineering students wanted to look like cowboys
and wore boots, jeans, flannel, but not the hat. The ABM students
wore suits, ties, hats, and carried briefcases. There was also a
skool of environmental design, which true to the stereotype,
everyone looked like hippies. I tried to make sense of it at the
time, and gave up.

Incidentally, it took me about 10 years to work my way through all
the punched card decks I had accumulated and used mostly as
scratch paper. I didn't make the same mistake with paper tape,
which I converted to floppy and burned the tapes.

My first calculator was an analog computer that I built into a
brief case. There were several 10 turn pots to input the numbers,
and a big mirrored meter to read the output. Basically, an
electronic implementation of a slide rule.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/scruz.general/Egv8cT2-JGY/SNVk9zi1ULQJ



When I graduated from college, I could throw everything I owned
into my pickup truck and drive off into the sunset (and actually
did that a few times). If I tried that today, it would take at
least two large moving vans and a project manager.

He who dies with the most toys, wins.


Here in Alabamastan we actually have a state college, The University
of Auburn, which is both the premier agricultural and engineering
school. I traveled to Auburn one year to visit some friends and drove
past "The Swine Research Unit". The smell could gag a maggot but the
pigs were happy. In the mid 1960's at The University of Alabama, I
started playing with and learning a tiny bit of Basic and Fortran in
order to play with the Univac which was on its way out and the new
IBM 360/50 RAX system which was replacing it. Kids these days have no
idea how user friendly computers are now compared to what I started
playing with like the analog computer at my school but I really
believe computers were more fun all those years ago. Now they're
tools, not so exclusive anymore and any kids gaming computer has much
more computing power than what was considered a super computer at one
time. ^_^

TDD
Hi,
You guys are little bit behind me, when I was into it during and after
school, computers were called electronic calculator as such containing
vacuum tubes, mechanical relays.. from there transistors, small scale IC
all the way into nanotech which is now. I used to use blank punch card
with columms and rows all half pre-punched so we can push the confetti
out to make holes where we want to do Fortran programming. If you drop
the card deck by accident, you have to resort one by one to make them in
proper order before you can have it read. Also remember 51 column card?
Credit card receipts were 51 column card size which could be read after
they are punched by key punch operators(girls) reading the amount
written and imprinted account number. My Ham radio hobby was from the
'50s, licensed in '60. Hold Extra U.S., Advanced/Digital Canadian,
First class Korean licenses. Right now I am busy resetting up our HT
system into 7.1 with new AV receiver and speakers. Better be done before
X-mas.

Danny D. wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 11:45:23 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

Oh I had a slide rule too. It was a K&E as I remember and
I wish I still had it. ^_^

My Dad, bless his heart, taught me how to use a slide rule
when I was in high school trig class. His was bamboo and white,
as I remember it. He bought me a smaller one, and I cherished
it. I hope I still have it, but, I've moved a half dozen times
since so it's somewhere.

Hi,
I still have mine in a leather case on my study desk shelf.

Danny D. wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 09:17:43 -0800, makolber wrote:

are you just concerned about reading -88 dBm noise level on the analyzer?
I wouldn't be surprised to read -88 dBm from a high gain antenna.
Do you think that is abnormal or is there some other problem?

Hi Mark,

I *am* a bit concerned with the -88dBm noise level, but, I do agree
with you that I have a high-gain antenna and high power transmitter
with decent receive sensitivity.

What concerns me most about the -88dBm noise is that some of my
neighbors, using the exact same equipment and connected to the
same WISP AP, have 9 dB less noise!

Since every 3dB is doubling (or halving), I have 8 times the noise
that they have! That's mostly what concerns me.

It would be nice if others on a.h.r listed their noise figures, so,
we could take an informal survey.

My modem (actually it's a tranceiver, but, it's just like a modem)
is where I measure all this noise.

Can you guys get noise figures out of a cable or DSL modem?

Hi,
How come you are using radio link. no cable access? You way out
in boon dogs like my cabin? My only access is via satellite there.
It costs a lot so I don't use it.

On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 18:21:09 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

In short, I simply want faster Internet (doesn't everyone?).

I should clarify that those of you who are on DSL or cable
won't have any way (that I know of) to increase your signal
quality ...

But, since there is no cable or DSL service to my neighborhood,
all of us get our Internet from the airwaves.

Given that, we do have a direct one-to-one relationship between
the quality of our signal and the speed of our Internet.

What I can do, at home, to improve *my* Internet speeds a
a) Increase my antenna gain (this is usually the best way)
b) Decrease my noise (this is usually the second best way)
c) Increase my transmitter power (this works only to a point)
d) Increase my receiver sensitivity (again, works only to a point)
e) Decrease my channel bandwidth (mine is set at 20MHz now)

I increased my antenna gain by replacing the Nanobridge M2
with the more powerful (and directional) Rocket M2, so, now
I'm working on the noise level.

On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 11:43:28 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

How come you are using radio link. no cable access? You way out
in boon dogs like my cabin? My only access is via satellite there.
It costs a lot so I don't use it.

Hi Tony,

We are in mountains. Our roads are one-lane for miles on end.
Zoning in our area is 40 acres, so, if you have 79 acres, you
can only put one house on it (they don't want more people living
in the mountains - they prefer them all squashed together in
San Jose, which we can "see" (along with the smog above it).

Even though we're few and far between (we can't even see the
neighbor's houses) but we all know each other better than if
we lived in a city.

So we all know what the others have by way of Interner access.
None of us can get DSL because we are something like 30,000
feet from some switching station that we need. It's too far.

None of us can get cable because the poles out here only
have power and telephone. Nothing else is on them.

Luckily, we're high up, so, we have a fantastic view of
the sky. Satellite is no problem. Out here, both Hughes and
Viasat Exeed serve us. But, satellite, in a word, sucks, only
because of bandwidth limits and latencies. Mostly the bandwidth
limits. The speeds are actually pretty good. But, that bandwidth
limit is a killer.

Of course, we could use cellular modems, but, there is a better
solution for us. We use line-of-sight WiFi access points. Since we
can see both sides of Silicon Valley, we could put an antenna
up 30 miles away and see it easily by line of sight. In almost
all directions.

The net is that we all have dish antennas bristling on our roofs.
They point at the local access points.

We have only four WISPs to choose from (that I know of), so,
each of us points to whatever WISP gives us the best deal.

Mine allows me to be unthrottled, which is great because I have
no bandwidth limits and I have no speed limits. If I can get
30Mbps, that's what I get.

My first radio, a Bullet M2, only got about 8Mbps (symmetric).
So I upgraded that to a Nanobridge M2, which got about 10Mbps.
Now with the Rocket M2, I get almost 20Mbps.

So, our investment in radios has a direct relationship to our
Internet speeds. Our "modem" is the radio (aka, the transceiver).

BTW, I'll ask you a question about you cabin in the next post ...

On 12/19/2013 12:35 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 12/19/2013 10:30 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 22:59:04 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

When I was in college you could spot a nerd because he had a
pocket protector and a rectangular box of punch cards under
one arm. Pocket calculators came out later, cost around $400.00
and had nerds drooling over them. I was out of college when I
saw my first HP calculator but I still had boxes of punch
cards. ^_^

Yeah, that was the theory but it didn't quite work at Cal Poly
Pomona in the late 1960's. Among other divisions, Cal Poly had
an engineering skool and an ABM (agricultural business
management) skool. One would assume that the engineering students
carried slide rules and punched cards, and the ABM students
looked like TV cowboys. Nope. The engineering students wanted to
look like cowboys and wore boots, jeans, flannel, but not the
hat. The ABM students wore suits, ties, hats, and carried
briefcases. There was also a skool of environmental design,
which true to the stereotype, everyone looked like hippies. I
tried to make sense of it at the time, and gave up.

Incidentally, it took me about 10 years to work my way through
all the punched card decks I had accumulated and used mostly as
scratch paper. I didn't make the same mistake with paper tape,
which I converted to floppy and burned the tapes.

My first calculator was an analog computer that I built into a
brief case. There were several 10 turn pots to input the
numbers, and a big mirrored meter to read the output. Basically,
an electronic implementation of a slide rule.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/scruz.general/Egv8cT2-JGY/SNVk9zi1ULQJ





When I graduated from college, I could throw everything I owned
into my pickup truck and drive off into the sunset (and actually
did that a few times). If I tried that today, it would take at
least two large moving vans and a project manager.

He who dies with the most toys, wins.


Here in Alabamastan we actually have a state college, The
University of Auburn, which is both the premier agricultural and
engineering school. I traveled to Auburn one year to visit some
friends and drove past "The Swine Research Unit". The smell could
gag a maggot but the pigs were happy. In the mid 1960's at The
University of Alabama, I started playing with and learning a tiny
bit of Basic and Fortran in order to play with the Univac which was
on its way out and the new IBM 360/50 RAX system which was
replacing it. Kids these days have no idea how user friendly
computers are now compared to what I started playing with like the
analog computer at my school but I really believe computers were
more fun all those years ago. Now they're tools, not so exclusive
anymore and any kids gaming computer has much more computing power
than what was considered a super computer at one time. ^_^

TDD
Hi, You guys are little bit behind me, when I was into it during and
after school, computers were called electronic calculator as such
containing vacuum tubes, mechanical relays.. from there transistors,
small scale IC all the way into nanotech which is now. I used to use
blank punch card with columms and rows all half pre-punched so we can
push the confetti out to make holes where we want to do Fortran
programming. If you drop the card deck by accident, you have to
resort one by one to make them in proper order before you can have it
read. Also remember 51 column card? Credit card receipts were 51
column card size which could be read after they are punched by key
punch operators(girls) reading the amount written and imprinted
account number. My Ham radio hobby was from the '50s, licensed in
'60. Hold Extra U.S., Advanced/Digital Canadian, First class Korean
licenses. Right now I am busy resetting up our HT system into 7.1
with new AV receiver and speakers. Better be done before X-mas.

We must pass our knowledge and skills on to a younger generation because
they are being lost. If our modern society crashed, most people would be
helpless because they have no idea how older simpler technology
works. Perhaps Boy Scouts could help people survive? o_O

TDD

On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 11:43:28 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

You way out in boon dogs like my cabin?
My only access is via satellite there.
It costs a lot so I don't use it.

Hi Tony,
Satellite is fast, but sucks due to bandwidth & latency
reasons.

If your cabin can use WISP, that's what I suggest.
What you need for WISP is line of sight to the access point.

From your cabin roof, can you *see* anywhere that does
have cable Internet access?

If so, you can home-brew up a fast Internet access easily.
Of course, there are *many* solutions, and the best is to
find a WISP access point that you can visually see ... (which
is what I do).

But, by way of example, let's say that 25 miles away, you
can see a friend or relative who has cable access. Remember,
you must *see* the area. Of course, even at about 3 miles,
I can't actually pick out my WISP antenna, but, I can scan
the area with binoculars enough to know I'm pointed roughly
at it (at 3 miles, my 5 degree beam is 1200 feet wide in
both horizontal and vertical directions).

At 25 miles, your beamwidth will be fine if you're anywhere
pointed close.

Then what you do is buy a pair of radios that cost about $100
in total, plus another $100 (or so) for mounting equipment, and
another $50 or so for cabling.

So, for roughly $250, one-time cost, you can establish a link
that easily transmits that cable Internet access from the
populated area to the rural area of your cabin.

The great news about that is the $250 is a one-time fee, so,
if you divide that over it's useful life (10 years?), it's
about $25 a year.

In summary, it's really easy to transmit WiFi from one place
to another, with the huge caveat that you need line-of-sight
between the two points. Hope this helps you with your cabin.

On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 11:37:31 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

I still have mine in a leather case on my study desk shelf.

Save that forever!

I still have some 8" floppy disks!

My kids were amazed.

I'm saving them for the grandkids, but, they never saw
so-called (hard sided) floppies ... so it might not make
as much an impact on them.

On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 13:35:46 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

If our modern society crashed, most people would be
helpless because they have no idea how older simpler technology
works.

I wonder if popsicle sticks, duct tape, and frozen orange juice
container can still fix a modern cooling system leak!

On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 12:13:37 -0500, wrote:

Punch cards were for the CS weenies. ;-) The real nerds had
slip-stick scabbards hanging from their belts (I carried mine with my
books). Over my senior year, the slip-sticks were being replaced by
calculators (and holsters for scabbards ;-). I bought an HP, and yes,
it was $400 (about 10-weeks gross pay).

Ditto. Despite the briefcase analog computer contrivance, the grunt
work was done with a 6" K&E.
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com/jeffl/pics/slide-rule/slides/slide-rule.html
The one in the photo is what I used a half century ago. (Hmm... why
am I suddenly feeling old?) I still use a slide rule for doing gear
ratios. I also give occasional demos of the slide rule to kids that
have never seen one. Incidentally, I give a song and dance on using a
nautical sextant in a few minutes... oops, I'm late.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 19:42:37 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

In summary, it's really easy to transmit WiFi from one place
to another, with the huge caveat that you need line-of-sight
between the two points. Hope this helps you with your cabin.

Just by way of another example, I can see all of San Jose, so,
out of the million people down there, I could find one willing
to beam their high-speed Internet to me, simply by adding a
radio to their roof and to mine.

(In effect, that's what I do, except I'm paying my WISP to be
that other antenna.)

The fact it's so easy and cheap (nowadays) to beam an Internet
connection a dozen miles, makes me wonder why more people don't
do it.

Of course, the caveat is (and always was) line of sight is
needed, although not having LOS is easy to solve with repeaters.

On 12/19/2013 1:46 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 13:35:46 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

If our modern society crashed, most people would be
helpless because they have no idea how older simpler technology
works.

I wonder if popsicle sticks, duct tape, and frozen orange juice
container can still fix a modern cooling system leak!




20 years ago, I was working on the chilled water system at a bowling
alley when a 10 year old kid walked up to the counter and asked the
counterman if he could use the phone to call home. The fellow reached
under the counter and set a rotary dial phone in front of the kid and
the kid had no idea what he was looking at much less how to use it. ^_^

TDD

On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 11:45:23 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/19/2013 11:13 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 22:59:04 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/18/2013 5:14 PM, ps56k wrote:
my friend just retired and moved from a huge custom house in the cold,
snowy, Chicago area
down to the middle of FL - sitting out on the lanai....

He coined the term --- de-crapification

Just prior to his leaving, we had our little college ski group lunch
gathering (4 guys)
with him presenting us each with a token from our past as part of his
de-crapification.
Some were FORTRAN puch cards, from our CS days,
some were check/receipts from our skiiing in Austria,
some were photos from frat parties - with fuzzy hair and long sideburns.


When I was in college you could spot a nerd because he had a pocket
protector and a rectangular box of punch cards under one arm. Pocket
calculators came out later, cost around $400.00 and had nerds drooling
over them. I was out of college when I saw my first HP calculator but I
still had boxes of punch cards. ^_^

Punch cards were for the CS weenies. ;-) The real nerds had
slip-stick scabbards hanging from their belts (I carried mine with my
books). Over my senior year, the slip-sticks were being replaced by
calculators (and holsters for scabbards ;-). I bought an HP, and yes,
it was $400 (about 10-weeks gross pay).

Oh I had a slide rule too. It was a K&E as I remember and I wish I still
had it. ^_^

Mine is a Post Versalog. I still have it, as well as the HP-45 that
had its 40th birthday last month. ;-)

The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 12/19/2013 1:46 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 13:35:46 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

If our modern society crashed, most people would be
helpless because they have no idea how older simpler technology
works.

I wonder if popsicle sticks, duct tape, and frozen orange juice
container can still fix a modern cooling system leak!




20 years ago, I was working on the chilled water system at a bowling
alley when a 10 year old kid walked up to the counter and asked the
counterman if he could use the phone to call home. The fellow reached
under the counter and set a rotary dial phone in front of the kid and
the kid had no idea what he was looking at much less how to use it. ^_^

TDD
Hi,
Add to that hay wire. Man's neck ties, woman's nylon stockings, LOL!

On 12/19/2013 3:50 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 11:45:23 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/19/2013 11:13 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 22:59:04 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/18/2013 5:14 PM, ps56k wrote:
my friend just retired and moved from a huge custom house in the cold,
snowy, Chicago area
down to the middle of FL - sitting out on the lanai....

He coined the term --- de-crapification

Just prior to his leaving, we had our little college ski group lunch
gathering (4 guys)
with him presenting us each with a token from our past as part of his
de-crapification.
Some were FORTRAN puch cards, from our CS days,
some were check/receipts from our skiiing in Austria,
some were photos from frat parties - with fuzzy hair and long sideburns.


When I was in college you could spot a nerd because he had a pocket
protector and a rectangular box of punch cards under one arm. Pocket
calculators came out later, cost around $400.00 and had nerds drooling
over them. I was out of college when I saw my first HP calculator but I
still had boxes of punch cards. ^_^

Punch cards were for the CS weenies. ;-) The real nerds had
slip-stick scabbards hanging from their belts (I carried mine with my
books). Over my senior year, the slip-sticks were being replaced by
calculators (and holsters for scabbards ;-). I bought an HP, and yes,
it was $400 (about 10-weeks gross pay).

Oh I had a slide rule too. It was a K&E as I remember and I wish I still
had it. ^_^

Mine is a Post Versalog. I still have it, as well as the HP-45 that
had its 40th birthday last month. ;-)


Oh man, the HP-45 cost as much back then as a desktop computer costs
now. ^_^

TDD

On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 21:58:05 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/19/2013 3:50 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 11:45:23 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/19/2013 11:13 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 22:59:04 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/18/2013 5:14 PM, ps56k wrote:
my friend just retired and moved from a huge custom house in the cold,
snowy, Chicago area
down to the middle of FL - sitting out on the lanai....

He coined the term --- de-crapification

Just prior to his leaving, we had our little college ski group lunch
gathering (4 guys)
with him presenting us each with a token from our past as part of his
de-crapification.
Some were FORTRAN puch cards, from our CS days,
some were check/receipts from our skiiing in Austria,
some were photos from frat parties - with fuzzy hair and long sideburns.


When I was in college you could spot a nerd because he had a pocket
protector and a rectangular box of punch cards under one arm. Pocket
calculators came out later, cost around $400.00 and had nerds drooling
over them. I was out of college when I saw my first HP calculator but I
still had boxes of punch cards. ^_^

Punch cards were for the CS weenies. ;-) The real nerds had
slip-stick scabbards hanging from their belts (I carried mine with my
books). Over my senior year, the slip-sticks were being replaced by
calculators (and holsters for scabbards ;-). I bought an HP, and yes,
it was $400 (about 10-weeks gross pay).

Oh I had a slide rule too. It was a K&E as I remember and I wish I still
had it. ^_^

Mine is a Post Versalog. I still have it, as well as the HP-45 that
had its 40th birthday last month. ;-)


Oh man, the HP-45 cost as much back then as a desktop computer costs
now. ^_^

The HP-45 was $395 in 1973 but very different dollars. About 50x
different, for me.

On 12/19/2013 10:34 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 21:58:05 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/19/2013 3:50 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 11:45:23 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/19/2013 11:13 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 22:59:04 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/18/2013 5:14 PM, ps56k wrote:
my friend just retired and moved from a huge custom house in the cold,
snowy, Chicago area
down to the middle of FL - sitting out on the lanai....

He coined the term --- de-crapification

Just prior to his leaving, we had our little college ski group lunch
gathering (4 guys)
with him presenting us each with a token from our past as part of his
de-crapification.
Some were FORTRAN puch cards, from our CS days,
some were check/receipts from our skiiing in Austria,
some were photos from frat parties - with fuzzy hair and long sideburns.


When I was in college you could spot a nerd because he had a pocket
protector and a rectangular box of punch cards under one arm. Pocket
calculators came out later, cost around $400.00 and had nerds drooling
over them. I was out of college when I saw my first HP calculator but I
still had boxes of punch cards. ^_^

Punch cards were for the CS weenies. ;-) The real nerds had
slip-stick scabbards hanging from their belts (I carried mine with my
books). Over my senior year, the slip-sticks were being replaced by
calculators (and holsters for scabbards ;-). I bought an HP, and yes,
it was $400 (about 10-weeks gross pay).

Oh I had a slide rule too. It was a K&E as I remember and I wish I still
had it. ^_^

Mine is a Post Versalog. I still have it, as well as the HP-45 that
had its 40th birthday last month. ;-)


Oh man, the HP-45 cost as much back then as a desktop computer costs
now. ^_^

The HP-45 was $395 in 1973 but very different dollars. About 50x
different, for me.


That was a heck of a lot of money for me in those days considering
minimum wage was $1.60/hr and I was paying 22 cents a gallon for regular
at the San-Ann gas station. In 1971 I was working at a defense
plant that made some munitions parts for the military and I was paid
$1.68/hr because I was working 11pm to 7am. The 8 cents was called a
shift differential paid to those who worked the night shift. ^_^

The pot's been boiling for a long time and the frogs still haven't
jumped out. o_O

TDD

On Fri, 20 Dec 2013 00:59:25 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/19/2013 10:34 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 21:58:05 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/19/2013 3:50 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 11:45:23 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/19/2013 11:13 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 22:59:04 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/18/2013 5:14 PM, ps56k wrote:
my friend just retired and moved from a huge custom house in the cold,
snowy, Chicago area
down to the middle of FL - sitting out on the lanai....

He coined the term --- de-crapification

Just prior to his leaving, we had our little college ski group lunch
gathering (4 guys)
with him presenting us each with a token from our past as part of his
de-crapification.
Some were FORTRAN puch cards, from our CS days,
some were check/receipts from our skiiing in Austria,
some were photos from frat parties - with fuzzy hair and long sideburns.


When I was in college you could spot a nerd because he had a pocket
protector and a rectangular box of punch cards under one arm. Pocket
calculators came out later, cost around $400.00 and had nerds drooling
over them. I was out of college when I saw my first HP calculator but I
still had boxes of punch cards. ^_^

Punch cards were for the CS weenies. ;-) The real nerds had
slip-stick scabbards hanging from their belts (I carried mine with my
books). Over my senior year, the slip-sticks were being replaced by
calculators (and holsters for scabbards ;-). I bought an HP, and yes,
it was $400 (about 10-weeks gross pay).

Oh I had a slide rule too. It was a K&E as I remember and I wish I still
had it. ^_^

Mine is a Post Versalog. I still have it, as well as the HP-45 that
had its 40th birthday last month. ;-)


Oh man, the HP-45 cost as much back then as a desktop computer costs
now. ^_^

The HP-45 was $395 in 1973 but very different dollars. About 50x
different, for me.


That was a heck of a lot of money for me in those days considering
minimum wage was $1.60/hr and I was paying 22 cents a gallon for regular
at the San-Ann gas station. In 1971 I was working at a defense
plant that made some munitions parts for the military and I was paid
$1.68/hr because I was working 11pm to 7am. The 8 cents was called a
shift differential paid to those who worked the night shift. ^_^

It was my senior year in college. The minimum wage was $2.00/hr and I
only worked 20hrs/wk (all they would give me during the school year).
It's a good thing a glass of beer was only $.25. ;-)

The pot's been boiling for a long time and the frogs still haven't
jumped out. o_O

They're gettin' antsy, though.

Also decrease the feed line loss...
Is the radio mounted up at the antenna?
Mark

On Fri, 20 Dec 2013 19:24:55 -0800, makolber wrote:

Also decrease the feed line loss...
Is the radio mounted up at the antenna?

Hi Mark,

Here is a picture of the mount when I had installed it:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3688/1...955239ba_o.jpg

The radio itself is the classic Ubiquiti Rocket M2:
http://store.netgate.com/Assets/Prod...KETM2%20US.jpg

That radio is clipped directly onto the back of the dish:
http://www.ubntstore.eu/images/detai...tmp_FEWrpH.jpg

One mistake I made was to use non-shielded cable, so,
there's about 75 feet of the plenum stuff outside going
from the roof to the first floor office where the
router and POE lie.

From a practical (noise) standpoint, how much do you think
that matters?

Danny D. wrote:
On Fri, 20 Dec 2013 19:24:55 -0800, makolber wrote:

Also decrease the feed line loss...
Is the radio mounted up at the antenna?

Hi Mark,

Here is a picture of the mount when I had installed it:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3688/1...955239ba_o.jpg

The radio itself is the classic Ubiquiti Rocket M2:
http://store.netgate.com/Assets/Prod...KETM2%20US.jpg

That radio is clipped directly onto the back of the dish:
http://www.ubntstore.eu/images/detai...tmp_FEWrpH.jpg

One mistake I made was to use non-shielded cable, so,
there's about 75 feet of the plenum stuff outside going
from the roof to the first floor office where the
router and POE lie.

From a practical (noise) standpoint, how much do you think
that matters?

Hi,
B4 you ask that question think about shield? Why do you think we use
shielded cable in AF or RF cabling(wiring) CAT 7 spec. ethernet cable is
best one.
I believe your noise is radio related unlikely Ethernet cable related.
Looks like your radio is repeater? All in all if you have reliable
connection, what's the worry? One way of increasing signal strength
will be using a bigger dish or did you picked best height of the
antenna. The higher the better is a myth. Is it LOS install.?

Way back when I was working on microwave, troposcatter links biggest
one was troposcatter link shooting from Nha Trang, S, Vietnam over to
Thailand. Triple diversity, antenna was 120 ft. square parabolic pair.
Nitrogen gas filled wave guides were used. No coax. SWR was around 1.2.
One night VC rocket sharpnels made some holes in wave guides plumbing,
SWR went upto about 1.4

Tri diversity is based on antenna spacing, frequency, polarization.
RX was parametric cavity tuned preamp, and all tube based RX, TX was 10W
TWT exciter to 10KW water cooled Klystron driving 100KW bigger Klystron
also with water cooled. HV on them were around 27KV DC.

This all became obsolete soon when RCA launched first Commsat. That was
end of my career in RF telecomm. going into Digital Data comm, main
frames, etc. Worked on autovon/autodin, Arpanet(origin of Internet).
Now I am no good any more, things changing too fast to grasp all.

On Fri, 20 Dec 2013 21:54:28 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

B4 you ask that question think about shield? Why do you think we use
shielded cable in AF or RF cabling

I think the shielding shorts out EMI/RFI interference; but, if that
interference is, say 60Hz, it won't be the cause of my noise.

My noise is at 2.4GHz.

So, I *think* the shielding isn't really shielding against *my* noise.
But it could shield against 60Hz noise (which I'm not measuring).

That's what I think - but I don't really know the answer...

On Fri, 20 Dec 2013 21:54:28 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

Looks like your radio is repeater? All in all if you have reliable
connection, what's the worry? One way of increasing signal strength
will be using a bigger dish or did you picked best height of the
antenna. The higher the better is a myth. Is it LOS install.?

Hi Tony,

The radio is not set up as a repeater. It's set up as a router:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7380/1...0692ea50_o.png

As you noted, I do have a reliable connection to the 2.4GHz WiFi
access point about 3 miles away, but, since my service is unthrottled,
the lower I can get noise, the faster I can get the speeds!

For example, here are side-by-side screenshots of the Rocket M2
speeds versus the Nanobridge M2 speeds the day I switched them out:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7448/1...0ac269e1_o.png

Notice, with *nothing* changed other than the dish & radio, on the
smaller Nanobridge, I got 78Mbps but on the larger Rocket, I got 117Mbps.

I don't really want to go *bigger* than the Rocketdish, so, that's
why I'm asking how to lower the noise.

Note: I see the noise on the Nanobridge was -97dBm, and that of the
Rocket is -89dBm, so, it's interesting that the Rocket is noiser than
the Nanobridge, considering the beamwidth of the Rocket is far narrower
(but the gain is far higher).

On Sat, 21 Dec 2013 07:29:25 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

I don't really want to go *bigger* than the Rocketdish, so, that's
why I'm asking how to lower the noise.

I should explain that, while I can *fit* a bigger unit on my roof,
the RocketDish is already 24dBi and the Rocket M2 radio is already
28dBm, so, the maximum (claimed) gain is 52 dBi (158 Watts), while
the maximum legal gain is 36dBm (4 Watts), so, the Rocket is already
throttling itself automatically just to keep within legal limits.

So I don't think a bigger dish is really the solution.

The solution is to figure out how to lower the noise...and,
the RF Armor seems to be the best answer (albeit pricey).

Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Fri, 20 Dec 2013 21:54:28 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

Looks like your radio is repeater? All in all if you have reliable
connection, what's the worry? One way of increasing signal strength
will be using a bigger dish or did you picked best height of the
antenna. The higher the better is a myth. Is it LOS install.?

Hi Tony,

The radio is not set up as a repeater. It's set up as a router:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7380/1...0692ea50_o.png

As you noted, I do have a reliable connection to the 2.4GHz WiFi
access point about 3 miles away, but, since my service is unthrottled,
the lower I can get noise, the faster I can get the speeds!

For example, here are side-by-side screenshots of the Rocket M2
speeds versus the Nanobridge M2 speeds the day I switched them out:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7448/1...0ac269e1_o.png

Notice, with *nothing* changed other than the dish & radio, on the
smaller Nanobridge, I got 78Mbps but on the larger Rocket, I got 117Mbps.

I don't really want to go *bigger* than the Rocketdish, so, that's
why I'm asking how to lower the noise.

Note: I see the noise on the Nanobridge was -97dBm, and that of the
Rocket is -89dBm, so, it's interesting that the Rocket is noiser than
the Nanobridge, considering the beamwidth of the Rocket is far narrower
(but the gain is far higher).

Hi,
What is operating power of the two radios and what is the sensitivity of
two RX? They are built on same design specs? Is it real LOS install
or radio horizon install?

Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Sat, 21 Dec 2013 07:29:25 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

I don't really want to go *bigger* than the Rocketdish, so, that's
why I'm asking how to lower the noise.

I should explain that, while I can *fit* a bigger unit on my roof,
the RocketDish is already 24dBi and the Rocket M2 radio is already
28dBm, so, the maximum (claimed) gain is 52 dBi (158 Watts), while
the maximum legal gain is 36dBm (4 Watts), so, the Rocket is already
throttling itself automatically just to keep within legal limits.

So I don't think a bigger dish is really the solution.

The solution is to figure out how to lower the noise...and,
the RF Armor seems to be the best answer (albeit pricey).

Hi,
If you rfeally hae to there iss no such thing as this the problem and
this is solution. You need many hours "cut and try type approach". First
off like using best cables you can get, even POE injectors are not
created equal.

On Sat, 21 Dec 2013 00:58:27 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

What is operating power of the two radios and what is the sensitivity of
two RX? They are built on same design specs? Is it real LOS install
or radio horizon install?

Hi Tony,

The access point is a bit more than 3 miles away, line of sight.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7448/1...0ac269e1_o.png

NANOBRIDGE M2:
Measured signal strength = -68 dBm
Measured noise floor = -97 dBm
Measured speed = 78 Mbps / 52 Mbps (i.e., 2-channel MIMO)
Claimed transmit power = 23 dBm (max)
Claimed antenna gain = 18 dBi
Calculated EIRP = 41 dBm (12 Watts)
Claimed sensitivity = -93 dBm (max)
SPEC: http://dl.ubnt.com/datasheets/nanobr...nbm_ds_web.pdf

ROCKET M2 + ROCKETDISH 2G-24:
Measured signal strength = -64 dBm
Measured noise floor = -89 dBm
Measured speed = 117 Mbps / 117 Mbps (i.e., 2-channel MIMO)
Claimed transmit power = 28 dBm (max)
Claimed antenna gain = 24 dBi
Calculated EIRP = 52 dBm (158 Watts)
Claimed sensitivity = -95dBm (max)
SPEC: https://www.discomp.cz/img.asp?attid=88929

On Sat, 21 Dec 2013 01:02:42 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

even POE injectors are not created equal.

Hi Tony,
With my cabling all less than 100 feet, it really doesn't
matter what POE I use with my three radios.

My Bullet came with a half amp 15 volt POE, and my
Nanobridge came with an amp 24 volt POE, and my
Rocket came with an amp 24 volt POE with its own
reset switch (which is really handy since the rocket
is on the roof).

In practice, since my cabling is so short, the POE
does not matter, as far as I can tell.

Something else *does* matter though ...

On 12/20/2013 10:54 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Danny D. wrote:
On Fri, 20 Dec 2013 19:24:55 -0800, makolber wrote:

Also decrease the feed line loss... Is the radio mounted up at
the antenna?

Hi Mark,

Here is a picture of the mount when I had installed it:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3688/1...955239ba_o.jpg

The radio itself is the classic Ubiquiti Rocket M2:
http://store.netgate.com/Assets/Prod...KETM2%20US.jpg

That radio is clipped directly onto the back of the dish:
http://www.ubntstore.eu/images/detai...tmp_FEWrpH.jpg

One mistake I made was to use non-shielded cable, so, there's about
75 feet of the plenum stuff outside going from the roof to the
first floor office where the router and POE lie.

From a practical (noise) standpoint, how much do you think that
matters?

Hi, B4 you ask that question think about shield? Why do you think we
use shielded cable in AF or RF cabling(wiring) CAT 7 spec. ethernet
cable is best one. I believe your noise is radio related unlikely
Ethernet cable related. Looks like your radio is repeater? All in all
if you have reliable connection, what's the worry? One way of
increasing signal strength will be using a bigger dish or did you
picked best height of the antenna. The higher the better is a myth.
Is it LOS install.?

Way back when I was working on microwave, troposcatter links biggest
one was troposcatter link shooting from Nha Trang, S, Vietnam over to
Thailand. Triple diversity, antenna was 120 ft. square parabolic
pair. Nitrogen gas filled wave guides were used. No coax. SWR was
around 1.2. One night VC rocket sharpnels made some holes in wave
guides plumbing, SWR went upto about 1.4

Tri diversity is based on antenna spacing, frequency, polarization.
RX was parametric cavity tuned preamp, and all tube based RX, TX was
10W TWT exciter to 10KW water cooled Klystron driving 100KW bigger
Klystron also with water cooled. HV on them were around 27KV DC.

This all became obsolete soon when RCA launched first Commsat. That
was end of my career in RF telecomm. going into Digital Data comm,
main frames, etc. Worked on autovon/autodin, Arpanet(origin of
Internet). Now I am no good any more, things changing too fast to
grasp all.


Nonsense, when you quit learning you're dead. You know how to learn
which is a quality many people lack. ^_^

TDD

A bigger dish will help.
I was asking about the RF cable, not the Ethernet cable.
I think what you want to do is read up on the subject.
Here are some key words to search for info
Noise figure
G/t
Link budget
Path loss
Thermal noise
-174 dBm / Hz
Noise bandwidth
Spectrum analyzer noise measurements
Parabolic reflector
Beam width
Aperture size
Also it seems your real goal is to increase the data rate but you seem focused on the ex noise.
Don't forget,the link needs to go both ways. Step one is to determine which path direction is your limiting factor.
Have fun... Happy new year
Mark

On Sat, 21 Dec 2013 05:35:03 -0800, makolber wrote:

A bigger dish will help.
I was asking about the RF cable, not the Ethernet cable.

The RF cable is as short as it can be, since the radio is clipped
directly into its mount on the back of the dish.

RF line losses are as low as I can make them without additional
shielding.