For those of you who shovel your sidewalks by hand, no snowblower or
employee doing it, how wide do you shovel?

Without exception, as far as I can see, my neibhbors shovel the whole
width of their personal sidewalk (to their door) and the one at right
angles to that (to the neighbors), which is about 3 feet.

OTOH, I shovel the width I need to walk on the sidewalk without
getting snow in my shoes or in the cuffs of my pants, about 18", which
is two widths of my lightweight aluminum shove. or two overlapping
widths when I use the coal shovel I found in the trash and cut off to
be relatively straight at the end.

Which do you do?

If you do the whole width, do you look down on, despise, people like
me? Or do you wish you could be like me? or do you ignore me?

"micky" wrote in message ...

For those of you who shovel your sidewalks by hand, no snowblower or
employee doing it, how wide do you shovel?

Without exception, as far as I can see, my neibhbors shovel the whole
width of their personal sidewalk (to their door) and the one at right
angles to that (to the neighbors), which is about 3 feet.

OTOH, I shovel the width I need to walk on the sidewalk without
getting snow in my shoes or in the cuffs of my pants, about 18", which
is two widths of my lightweight aluminum shove. or two overlapping
widths when I use the coal shovel I found in the trash and cut off to
be relatively straight at the end.

Which do you do?

If you do the whole width, do you look down on, despise, people like
me? Or do you wish you could be like me? or do you ignore me?

You have good neighbors. What is their opinion of you? WW

micky wrote:

For those of you who shovel your sidewalks by hand, no snowblower or
employee doing it, how wide do you shovel?

Without exception, as far as I can see, my neibhbors shovel the whole
width of their personal sidewalk (to their door) and the one at right
angles to that (to the neighbors), which is about 3 feet.

OTOH, I shovel the width I need to walk on the sidewalk without
getting snow in my shoes or in the cuffs of my pants, about 18", which
is two widths of my lightweight aluminum shove. or two overlapping
widths when I use the coal shovel I found in the trash and cut off to
be relatively straight at the end.

Which do you do?

If you do the whole width, do you look down on, despise, people like
me? Or do you wish you could be like me? or do you ignore me?

I ensure I don't live anywhere where there are sidewalks, or much snow.

On Mon, 9 Dec 2013 08:56:27 -0700, "WW"
wrote:



"micky" wrote in message ...

For those of you who shovel your sidewalks by hand, no snowblower or
employee doing it, how wide do you shovel?

Without exception, as far as I can see, my neibhbors shovel the whole
width of their personal sidewalk (to their door) and the one at right
angles to that (to the neighbors), which is about 3 feet.

OTOH, I shovel the width I need to walk on the sidewalk without
getting snow in my shoes or in the cuffs of my pants, about 18", which
is two widths of my lightweight aluminum shove. or two overlapping
widths when I use the coal shovel I found in the trash and cut off to
be relatively straight at the end.

Which do you do?

If you do the whole width, do you look down on, despise, people like
me? Or do you wish you could be like me? or do you ignore me?

You have good neighbors. What is their opinion of you? WW

I'm afraid to ask!

On Monday, December 9, 2013 10:44:07 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
For those of you who shovel your sidewalks by hand, no snowblower or

employee doing it, how wide do you shovel?

Full width. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.

You want to allow for two people walking side by side, perhaps assisting one who's disabled, perhaps walking a dog, perhaps with compromised vision - lots of reasons to do more than a narrow path.

Also, the narrow path gets harder to keep clear, as later snows get walked on, and as melt water freezes.

micky wrote:
For those of you who shovel your sidewalks by hand, no snowblower or
employee doing it, how wide do you shovel?

Without exception, as far as I can see, my neibhbors shovel the whole
width of their personal sidewalk (to their door) and the one at right
angles to that (to the neighbors), which is about 3 feet.

OTOH, I shovel the width I need to walk on the sidewalk without
getting snow in my shoes or in the cuffs of my pants, about 18", which
is two widths of my lightweight aluminum shove. or two overlapping
widths when I use the coal shovel I found in the trash and cut off to
be relatively straight at the end.

Which do you do?

If you do the whole width, do you look down on, despise, people like
me? Or do you wish you could be like me? or do you ignore me?

I do not have sidewalks along the road in front of my house. I have a
single width driveway with a flower bed on one side and a lawn on the
other. I typically clear the driveway from edge to edge and then widen it
about 36" by removing the snow from the lawn. For the walkway from my stoop
to my driveway, I typically double the width, again by clearing the snow
from the lawn along side it. My snowblower, tilted back at a slight angle,
makes quick work of this.

As the snow piles up, the extra width gives us room to walk, open car
doors, move the snowblower around in the driveway, etc.

I also clear a 24" path (the width of my snowblower) across my front lawn
from my walkway to my neighbor's driveway so the mail carrier and newspaper
lady don't have to trudge through the snow or walk all the way out to the
street and back.

When the snow is really deep, I will run the snowblower all the way around
my house so I can get to the back door, shed, deck, etc.

When I was growing up in NYC, I always frowned upon the one or two
homeowners on our block who either didn't clear their sidewalks fully or
didn't clear them at all. Obviously, there needs to be some leeway for the
elderly or frail, but as for the homeowners who are just too lazy to make
it easier for people (especially the elderly or frail) walk down the
sidewalk, well, I definitely looked down on them.

There were a few of us who made sure that the stoops and sidewalks of the
elderly and frail were kept clear of snow for their safety. The occasional
batch of cookies or the offer of a cup of coffee made it all worthwhile.

On 12/9/2013 7:44 AM, micky wrote:
For those of you who shovel your sidewalks by hand, no snowblower or
employee doing it, how wide do you shovel?

Without exception, as far as I can see, my neibhbors shovel the whole
width of their personal sidewalk (to their door) and the one at right
angles to that (to the neighbors), which is about 3 feet.

OTOH, I shovel the width I need to walk on the sidewalk without
getting snow in my shoes or in the cuffs of my pants, about 18", which
is two widths of my lightweight aluminum shove. or two overlapping
widths when I use the coal shovel I found in the trash and cut off to
be relatively straight at the end.

Which do you do?

If you do the whole width, do you look down on, despise, people like
me? Or do you wish you could be like me? or do you ignore me?


Does your city not have ordinances requiring the WHOLE sidewalk to be
cleared? Around here in Central Oregon, that is the case. It's not a
matter of walking, it's a matter of your liability should someone slip
and fall on your sidewalk.

Paul

On Mon, 9 Dec 2013 08:19:44 -0800 (PST), TimR
wrote:

On Monday, December 9, 2013 10:44:07 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
For those of you who shovel your sidewalks by hand, no snowblower or

employee doing it, how wide do you shovel?

Full width. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.

You want to allow for two people walking side by side, perhaps assisting one who's disabled, perhaps walking a dog, perhaps with compromised vision - lots of reasons to do more than a narrow path.

These are all good reasons, though none really apply to me. I'm the
last house on the sidewalk so anyone using it is coming to my house.
No one who is disabled ever comes to my house, no one with a dog, no
one with bad vision. And the only pairs of people who might come
are missionaries, and when they see how narrow the path is, they can
walk one by one, or not come at all which would be fine with me.

Also, the narrow path gets harder to keep clear, as later snows get walked on, and as melt water freezes.

Also a good reason, but not so much in Baltimore where it's rarely
cold for very long. This one might apply on occasion. I wonder
what my mailman thinks. I'll ask him.

Thanks.

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 09:16:35 -0800, Paul Drahn
wrote:

On 12/9/2013 7:44 AM, micky wrote:
For those of you who shovel your sidewalks by hand, no snowblower or
employee doing it, how wide do you shovel?

Without exception, as far as I can see, my neibhbors shovel the whole
width of their personal sidewalk (to their door) and the one at right
angles to that (to the neighbors), which is about 3 feet.

OTOH, I shovel the width I need to walk on the sidewalk without
getting snow in my shoes or in the cuffs of my pants, about 18", which
is two widths of my lightweight aluminum shove. or two overlapping
widths when I use the coal shovel I found in the trash and cut off to
be relatively straight at the end.

Which do you do?

If you do the whole width, do you look down on, despise, people like
me? Or do you wish you could be like me? or do you ignore me?


Does your city not have ordinances requiring the WHOLE sidewalk to be
cleared?

I assumed they didn't. I'll look into that.

Around here in Central Oregon, that is the case. It's not a
matter of walking, it's a matter of your liability should someone slip
and fall on your sidewalk.

People should walk on the shoveled part. It's not my fault if they
don't. Failure to follow a city ordinance would not in itself make
me liable. If the failure were also negligence, (and the proximate
cause of the injury) that would make me liable.

Thanks.

Paul

On 12/9/2013 10:44 AM, micky wrote:


Which do you do?

Full width. Sidewalk full width is required in some towns, but for
safety, that is what you want.



If you do the whole width, do you look down on, despise, people like
me? Or do you wish you could be like me? or do you ignore me?

On a good day we call you a lazy *******. On a bad day, even worse.

"TimR" wrote in message
...
On Monday, December 9, 2013 10:44:07 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
For those of you who shovel your sidewalks by hand, no snowblower or

employee doing it, how wide do you shovel?

Full width. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.

You want to allow for two people walking side by side, perhaps assisting
one who's disabled, perhaps walking a dog, perhaps with compromised
vision - lots of reasons to do more than a narrow path.

Also, the narrow path gets harder to keep clear, as later snows get walked
on, and as melt water freezes.

Also what about wheelchairs or electric scooters, they need extra room to
get through.

On 12/9/2013 2:18 PM, micky wrote:

People should walk on the shoveled part. It's not my fault if they
don't. Failure to follow a city ordinance would not in itself make
me liable. If the failure were also negligence, (and the proximate
cause of the injury) that would make me liable.

Thanks.

Paul


I'd like to see you telling that to a personal injury lawyer.

In article ,
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 12/9/2013 2:18 PM, micky wrote:

People should walk on the shoveled part. It's not my fault if they
don't. Failure to follow a city ordinance would not in itself make
me liable. If the failure were also negligence, (and the proximate
cause of the injury) that would make me liable.

Thanks.

Paul


I'd like to see you telling that to a personal injury lawyer.

The judge is the one you have to make this particular argument to. In
Indiana (anyway) the judge or jury can apportion degree of negligence.
If they had a usable path and did not take, they would certainly have
some degree of culpability.,
--
³Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital.²
‹ Aaron Levenstein

Also a good reason, but not so much in Baltimore where it's rarely
cold for very long. This one might apply on occasion. I wonder
what my mailman thinks. I'll ask him.

Thanks.

Who you gonna believe? Usenet, or your own
lyin mailman?


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 15:31:13 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 12/9/2013 2:18 PM, micky wrote:

People should walk on the shoveled part. It's not my fault if they
don't. Failure to follow a city ordinance would not in itself make
me liable. If the failure were also negligence, (and the proximate
cause of the injury) that would make me liable.

[...]


I'd like to see you telling that to a personal injury lawyer.

....and the entire family shows up in court with neck support braces

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 10:44:07 -0500, micky
wrote:

For those of you who shovel your sidewalks by hand, no snowblower or
employee doing it, how wide do you shovel?

Whether using the blower or the shovel I clear the full width od the
40 inch sidewalk - every time.

Without exception, as far as I can see, my neibhbors shovel the whole
width of their personal sidewalk (to their door) and the one at right
angles to that (to the neighbors), which is about 3 feet.

OTOH, I shovel the width I need to walk on the sidewalk without
getting snow in my shoes or in the cuffs of my pants, about 18", which
is two widths of my lightweight aluminum shove. or two overlapping
widths when I use the coal shovel I found in the trash and cut off to
be relatively straight at the end.

Which do you do?

If you do the whole width, do you look down on, despise, people like
me? Or do you wish you could be like me? or do you ignore me?

I just call the city to report an improperly cleared sidewalk. Then
the city comes out and clears it and puts the charge on your tax bill.

You have 24 hours - - -

On 12/9/2013 10:44 AM, micky wrote:
For those of you who shovel your sidewalks by hand, no snowblower or
employee doing it, how wide do you shovel?

Without exception, as far as I can see, my neibhbors shovel the whole
width of their personal sidewalk (to their door) and the one at right
angles to that (to the neighbors), which is about 3 feet.

OTOH, I shovel the width I need to walk on the sidewalk without
getting snow in my shoes or in the cuffs of my pants, about 18", which
is two widths of my lightweight aluminum shove. or two overlapping
widths when I use the coal shovel I found in the trash and cut off to
be relatively straight at the end.

Which do you do?

If you do the whole width, do you look down on, despise, people like
me? Or do you wish you could be like me? or do you ignore me?


I start off with a wider swath than I end up with as I get tired. I'm a
middle aged (and then some) 5' tall woman, and in my neighborhood, no
one goes around looking for business shoveling. I spend my energy on my
driveway, and frequently let the sidewalk fend for itself. Most of the
neighbors seem to follow that approach. The mailman says he doesn't care
as long as the driveways are clear enough to get to the mailboxes. My
home & driveway are positioned directly across from a right angle road
(ie, if the person coming down that road neglects to turn left or right,
they'll end up in my driveway). Problem is that when the county plow
comes down that road and swings to its right, it shoves all of its snow
up on top of part of the public sidewalk. One time, the pile was almost
my height and several feet wide, so no way could I clear the sidewalk.

When I was house hunting, I actually wanted to find a house with no
public sidewalk so that I wouldn't have to worry about it. Alas, I
didn't find a house I liked, but in my immediate neighborhood at least
half of the blocks don't have a sidewalk. I'm seriously considering
finding out if I'm required to have a sidewalk, or if I can just remove
it and plant grass!

On 12/9/2013 3:34 PM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 12/9/2013 2:18 PM, micky wrote:

People should walk on the shoveled part. It's not my fault if they
don't. Failure to follow a city ordinance would not in itself make
me liable. If the failure were also negligence, (and the proximate
cause of the injury) that would make me liable.

Thanks.

Paul


I'd like to see you telling that to a personal injury lawyer.

The judge is the one you have to make this particular argument to. In
Indiana (anyway) the judge or jury can apportion degree of negligence.
If they had a usable path and did not take, they would certainly have
some degree of culpability.,


Yeah, you tell it to the judge, but the lawyer is the one that will rip
you apart. A narrow path on a wide sidewalk won't get you many points.

On 12/9/2013 9:09 PM, Lee B wrote:

I start off with a wider swath than I end up with as I get tired. I'm a
middle aged (and then some) 5' tall woman, and in my neighborhood, no
one goes around looking for business shoveling. I spend my energy on my
driveway, and frequently let the sidewalk fend for itself. Most of the
neighbors seem to follow that approach.

Consider a snow blower. I've been using one for the pat 12 years now.

micky wrote:
For those of you who shovel your sidewalks by hand, no snowblower or
employee doing it, how wide do you shovel?

Without exception, as far as I can see, my neibhbors shovel the whole
width of their personal sidewalk (to their door) and the one at right
angles to that (to the neighbors), which is about 3 feet.

OTOH, I shovel the width I need to walk on the sidewalk without
getting snow in my shoes or in the cuffs of my pants, about 18", which
is two widths of my lightweight aluminum shove. or two overlapping
widths when I use the coal shovel I found in the trash and cut off to
be relatively straight at the end.

Which do you do?

If you do the whole width, do you look down on, despise, people like
me? Or do you wish you could be like me? or do you ignore me?

I don't shovel the side walk at all, because we don't have sidewalks and
I don't have to shovel the grass.



--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeros after @

On Monday, December 9, 2013 9:34:20 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/9/2013 9:09 PM, Lee B wrote:



I start off with a wider swath than I end up with as I get tired. I'm a

middle aged (and then some) 5' tall woman, and in my neighborhood, no

one goes around looking for business shoveling. I spend my energy on my

driveway, and frequently let the sidewalk fend for itself. Most of the

neighbors seem to follow that approach.



Consider a snow blower. I've been using one for the pat 12 years now.

Although we don't get a lot of snow here just north of Baltimore, we have a 90' drive and every so often we get so much snow that I can't get the car out to the street unless I clear the drive. I bought a good two-stage blower but only use it every third year, on average. Still, when needed, it's a lifesaver. Starting in November, I start it up and let it run for several minutes on the first weekend of every month to make sure it's ready for action.

micky wrote:
For those of you who shovel your sidewalks by hand, no snowblower or
employee doing it, how wide do you shovel?

Without exception, as far as I can see, my neibhbors shovel the whole
width of their personal sidewalk (to their door) and the one at right
angles to that (to the neighbors), which is about 3 feet.

OTOH, I shovel the width I need to walk on the sidewalk without
getting snow in my shoes or in the cuffs of my pants, about 18", which
is two widths of my lightweight aluminum shove. or two overlapping
widths when I use the coal shovel I found in the trash and cut off to
be relatively straight at the end.

Which do you do?

If you do the whole width, do you look down on, despise, people like
me? Or do you wish you could be like me? or do you ignore me?

If I had a community sidewalk, I would probably try to clear the whole
thing, and some salt. Most of travel at my house is through the driveway.
Unless I expect a lot of company, I do the least possible. If my two leaf
blowers don't do it, I just sparsely push the snow around, with a little
salt.

Greg

What in the **** is a snow shovel? Some Yankee tool?

Hahajaha.

gregz wrote:
micky wrote:
For those of you who shovel your sidewalks by hand, no snowblower or
employee doing it, how wide do you shovel?

Without exception, as far as I can see, my neibhbors shovel the whole
width of their personal sidewalk (to their door) and the one at right
angles to that (to the neighbors), which is about 3 feet.

OTOH, I shovel the width I need to walk on the sidewalk without
getting snow in my shoes or in the cuffs of my pants, about 18", which
is two widths of my lightweight aluminum shove. or two overlapping
widths when I use the coal shovel I found in the trash and cut off to
be relatively straight at the end.

Which do you do?

If you do the whole width, do you look down on, despise, people like
me? Or do you wish you could be like me? or do you ignore me?

If I had a community sidewalk, I would probably try to clear the whole
thing, and some salt. Most of travel at my house is through the driveway.
Unless I expect a lot of company, I do the least possible. If my two leaf
blowers don't do it, I just sparsely push the snow around, with a little
salt.

Greg

We generally don't get mor than 4-6 inches anymore, but got 17 inches 4
years ago. that required some work. My cavalier was in my front lawn. I had
to clear about 6 feet in back of it, to get on the street. Probably 25
inches at the curb.

Greg

"EXT" wrote in message
eb.com...

Also what about wheelchairs or electric scooters, they need extra room to
get through.

Very true. I once was waiting at a red light, when I spotted a person all
bundled up in a motorized wheelchair. They were stuck on the sidewalk
where someone hadn't shoveled. I pulled off the road, told them to floor
it. As they did, they slipped down a hill and did a roll over! I got the
heck out of there.

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 14:48:45 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 12/9/2013 10:44 AM, micky wrote:


Which do you do?

Full width. Sidewalk full width is required in some towns, but for
safety, that is what you want.



If you do the whole width, do you look down on, despise, people like
me? Or do you wish you could be like me? or do you ignore me?

On a good day we call you a lazy *******. On a bad day, even worse.

Good to know.

I guess this started when I was 10 and we moved to a new house, or at
least when I first started shoveling the driveway, 10, 11, 12?

The driveway to the garage was over 100 feet long, and there was no
chance I could shovel the whole thing at age 10 or 12, so I shoveled
just two tracks wide enough for the tires. My mother was a good
backer-upper and she could back 100 feet while staying in the shoveled
part most of the time. Or she used the "turnaround", a little extra
part where one could park one or two cars, or turn around, so she
could drive out in forward, where the tracks were even easier to
follow. Since then I lived in apartments with no shoveling involved
until I got this house,

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 19:52:29 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 10:44:07 -0500, micky
wrote:

For those of you who shovel your sidewalks by hand, no snowblower or
employee doing it, how wide do you shovel?

Whether using the blower or the shovel I clear the full width od the
40 inch sidewalk - every time.

Without exception, as far as I can see, my neibhbors shovel the whole
width of their personal sidewalk (to their door) and the one at right
angles to that (to the neighbors), which is about 3 feet.

OTOH, I shovel the width I need to walk on the sidewalk without
getting snow in my shoes or in the cuffs of my pants, about 18", which
is two widths of my lightweight aluminum shove. or two overlapping
widths when I use the coal shovel I found in the trash and cut off to
be relatively straight at the end.

Which do you do?

If you do the whole width, do you look down on, despise, people like
me? Or do you wish you could be like me? or do you ignore me?

I just call the city to report an improperly cleared sidewalk. Then
the city comes out and clears it and puts the charge on your tax bill.

You have 24 hours - - -

You guys are all pretty much right!!

" 18-3-107. REMOVAL OF SNOW AND ICE.
(a) Required. Within 24 hours after the fall of any snow, each
person or public institution occupying or using a residential,
commercial, or industrial building in any manner or for any purpose
shall remove and clear away, or cause to be removed and cleared away,
the snow from the foot pavements fronting the respective houses,
stores, shops, stables, houses of worship, lots occupied by any
buildings, unoccupied buildings, and unoccupied lots that run along
streets in the county.

=== It doesn't explicitly say "all of the sidewalk" so what a lawyer
would do is argue that a person in my shoes was "substantially
compliant". That works sometimes, here it would probably be easier
to pay their charge for shoveling.

By "fronting" I think they mean the sidewalk parallel to the street.
I actually own only about 3 feet of that just outside my fence, but
farther away from the fence, I have about 15 feet. This is in front
of the land my next-door neighbor says he owns, yet he doesn't always
shovel it when he shovels the sidewalk in front of his house.
Yesterday I was out by 10AM. No one was there but the 15 feet were
already shoveled, likely by a different neighbor.. I looked at 9 and
no one was outside. AT 8 I thought it was too cold to shovel.

It doesn't seem like there is any rule for the sidewalk to my door.

Thanks everyone.
====


(b) Manner of removal. In removing or clearing the snow, the
person may not:
(1) Obstruct the passage of water in gutters along the street;
or
(2) Throw the snow on the paved portion of the street.
(c) County may remove. If the person required to remove and
clear snow under this section does not remove and clear the snow, the
county may do so at the expense of the person.
(d) Expense a lien.
(1) If the person does not pay the expense incurred by the
county for snow removal under this section, the expense shall be a
lien on the property in the same manner as taxes, and shall be
collected in the same manner provided by law for the collection of
taxes.
(2) Charges and assessments imposed under this subsection are
benefit charges and may not exceed a reasonable estimate of the
special benefit conferred on the property.
(e) Removal of ice. The person required to remove and clear snow
also shall keep ice and every type of obstruction out of the gutters
leading to and off the pavements or sidewalks located in front or at
the rear or sides of the same buildings.
(f) Penalty. In addition to the other remedies provided in this
section, a person who fails to comply with this section is guilty of a
misdemeanor and subject to a fine of $25 for each failure and an
additional $25 for each day the obstruction continues.
(1988 Code, § 31-8) (Bill No. 3, 1990, § 2; Bill No. 66-01, § 2,
7-1-2004)"

On 12/10/2013 4:25 AM, micky wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 19:52:29 -0500, wrote:



You guys are all pretty much right!!

" 18-3-107. REMOVAL OF SNOW AND ICE.
(a) Required. Within 24 hours after the fall of any snow, each
person or public institution occupying or using a residential,
commercial, or industrial building in any manner or for any purpose
shall remove and clear away, or cause to be removed and cleared away,
the snow from the foot pavements fronting the respective houses,
stores, shops, stables, houses of worship, lots occupied by any
buildings, unoccupied buildings, and unoccupied lots that run along
streets in the county.

=== It doesn't explicitly say "all of the sidewalk" so what a lawyer
would do is argue that a person in my shoes was "substantially
compliant". That works sometimes, here it would probably be easier
to pay their charge for shoveling.

By "fronting" I think they mean the sidewalk parallel to the street.
I actually own only about 3 feet of that just outside my fence, but
farther away from the fence, I have about 15 feet. This is in front
of the land my next-door neighbor says he owns, yet he doesn't always
shovel it when he shovels the sidewalk in front of his house.
Yesterday I was out by 10AM. No one was there but the 15 feet were
already shoveled, likely by a different neighbor.. I looked at 9 and
no one was outside. AT 8 I thought it was too cold to shovel.

It doesn't seem like there is any rule for the sidewalk to my door.

Thanks everyone.
====


(b) Manner of removal. In removing or clearing the snow, the
person may not:
(1) Obstruct the passage of water in gutters along the street;
or
(2) Throw the snow on the paved portion of the street.
(c) County may remove. If the person required to remove and
clear snow under this section does not remove and clear the snow, the
county may do so at the expense of the person.
(d) Expense a lien.
(1) If the person does not pay the expense incurred by the
county for snow removal under this section, the expense shall be a
lien on the property in the same manner as taxes, and shall be
collected in the same manner provided by law for the collection of
taxes.
(2) Charges and assessments imposed under this subsection are
benefit charges and may not exceed a reasonable estimate of the
special benefit conferred on the property.
(e) Removal of ice. The person required to remove and clear snow
also shall keep ice and every type of obstruction out of the gutters
leading to and off the pavements or sidewalks located in front or at
the rear or sides of the same buildings.
(f) Penalty. In addition to the other remedies provided in this
section, a person who fails to comply with this section is guilty of a
misdemeanor and subject to a fine of $25 for each failure and an
additional $25 for each day the obstruction continues.
(1988 Code, § 31-8) (Bill No. 3, 1990, § 2; Bill No. 66-01, § 2,
7-1-2004)"

That is all there so the city doesn't get sued!
Paul

In article ,
micky wrote:
For those of you who shovel your sidewalks by hand, no snowblower or
employee doing it, how wide do you shovel?

Without exception, as far as I can see, my neibhbors shovel the whole
width of their personal sidewalk (to their door) and the one at right
angles to that (to the neighbors), which is about 3 feet.

OTOH, I shovel the width I need to walk on the sidewalk without
getting snow in my shoes or in the cuffs of my pants, about 18", which
is two widths of my lightweight aluminum shove. or two overlapping
widths when I use the coal shovel I found in the trash and cut off to
be relatively straight at the end.

Which do you do?

We live a little outside town, and the only sidewalks are between
our driveway and our door. I shovel the whole width, while my
husband works the 100-foot driveway with the snow blower. (I also
shovel the patio and the deck, so that we can get to the grill
and hot tub, respectively.) If the snow is really deep, he does
the sidewalks and patio with the snow blower.

If you do the whole width, do you look down on, despise, people like
me? Or do you wish you could be like me? or do you ignore me?

I pretty much ignore other people's snow removal unless I visit them.
Then I'd prefer somewhat more than 18".

Cindy Hamilton
--

On Monday, December 9, 2013 10:44:07 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
For those of you who shovel your sidewalks by hand, no snowblower or

employee doing it, how wide do you shovel?



Without exception, as far as I can see, my neibhbors shovel the whole

width of their personal sidewalk (to their door) and the one at right

angles to that (to the neighbors), which is about 3 feet.



OTOH, I shovel the width I need to walk on the sidewalk without

getting snow in my shoes or in the cuffs of my pants, about 18", which

is two widths of my lightweight aluminum shove. or two overlapping

widths when I use the coal shovel I found in the trash and cut off to

be relatively straight at the end.



Which do you do?



If you do the whole width, do you look down on, despise, people like

me? Or do you wish you could be like me? or do you ignore me?

Personally, if it is a light snow I cleanup and keep the pile at a distance. Then as the snow falls it is easier to remove and get out of the way. If there is a heavy fall overnight I keep the pile closer so to have just enough room to walk through.

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:49:11 AM UTC-5, YouraPeon wrote:
On Monday, December 9, 2013 10:44:07 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:

For those of you who shovel your sidewalks by hand, no snowblower or



employee doing it, how wide do you shovel?







Without exception, as far as I can see, my neibhbors shovel the whole



width of their personal sidewalk (to their door) and the one at right



angles to that (to the neighbors), which is about 3 feet.







OTOH, I shovel the width I need to walk on the sidewalk without



getting snow in my shoes or in the cuffs of my pants, about 18", which



is two widths of my lightweight aluminum shove. or two overlapping



widths when I use the coal shovel I found in the trash and cut off to



be relatively straight at the end.







Which do you do?







If you do the whole width, do you look down on, despise, people like



me? Or do you wish you could be like me? or do you ignore me?



Personally, if it is a light snow I cleanup and keep the pile at a distance. Then as the snow falls it is easier to remove and get out of the way. If there is a heavy fall overnight I keep the pile closer so to have just enough room to walk through.

If the pile is too close when it melts you will have more slush and ice the next morning.

micky wrote:

....snip...


You guys are all pretty much right!!

" 18-3-107. REMOVAL OF SNOW AND ICE.
(a) Required. Within 24 hours after the fall of any snow, each
person or public institution occupying or using a residential,
commercial, or industrial building in any manner or for any purpose
shall remove and clear away, or cause to be removed and cleared away,
the snow from the foot pavements fronting the respective houses,
stores, shops, stables, houses of worship, lots occupied by any
buildings, unoccupied buildings, and unoccupied lots that run along
streets in the county.

=== It doesn't explicitly say "all of the sidewalk" so what a lawyer
would do is argue that a person in my shoes was "substantially
compliant". That works sometimes, here it would probably be easier
to pay their charge for shoveling.

...snip...

No, it doesn't say "all of the sidewalk", it says "clear away...the snow
from the foot pavements".

It also doesn't say "clear away the snow from 50% of the foot pavements" or
"clear away enough snow from the foot pavements to make a walkway at least
wide enough for one person to walk through", it says "clear away...the snow
from the foot pavements."

Seems pretty straight forward to me...they want it cleared away from the
entire foot pavement.

However, here's what I find interesting with the section of code you
posted...

It specifically addresses what you are supposed to do "within 24 hours
after the fall of any snow." Note the words "fall of any snow".

Ok, so the snow falls from 1AM to 6AM. At 7AM you clear the snow from the
foot pavement. At 8AM the plow comes by and pushes a ton of snow from the
road onto the foot pavement. Since it wasn't put there by "any fall of
snow" it appears that you do not have to clear it. Well, at least not until
the next "fall of any snow" at which time you would have to clear both the
new snow and the plowed snow.

Maybe there is a different section of code that addresses the snow that
plow put back on the foot pavement.

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 06:33:16 -0800, Paul Drahn
wrote:

On 12/10/2013 4:25 AM, micky wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 19:52:29 -0500, wrote:



You guys are all pretty much right!!

" 18-3-107. REMOVAL OF SNOW AND ICE.
(a) Required. Within 24 hours after the fall of any snow, each
person or public institution occupying or using a residential,
commercial, or industrial building in any manner or for any purpose
shall remove and clear away, or cause to be removed and cleared away,
the snow from the foot pavements fronting the respective houses,
stores, shops, stables, houses of worship, lots occupied by any
buildings, unoccupied buildings, and unoccupied lots that run along
streets in the county.

=== It doesn't explicitly say "all of the sidewalk" so what a lawyer
would do is argue that a person in my shoes was "substantially
compliant". That works sometimes, here it would probably be easier
to pay their charge for shoveling.

By "fronting" I think they mean the sidewalk parallel to the street.
I actually own only about 3 feet of that just outside my fence, but
farther away from the fence, I have about 15 feet. This is in front
of the land my next-door neighbor says he owns, yet he doesn't always
shovel it when he shovels the sidewalk in front of his house.
Yesterday I was out by 10AM. No one was there but the 15 feet were
already shoveled, likely by a different neighbor.. I looked at 9 and
no one was outside. AT 8 I thought it was too cold to shovel.

It doesn't seem like there is any rule for the sidewalk to my door.

Thanks everyone.
====


(b) Manner of removal. In removing or clearing the snow, the
person may not:
(1) Obstruct the passage of water in gutters along the street;
or
(2) Throw the snow on the paved portion of the street.
(c) County may remove. If the person required to remove and
clear snow under this section does not remove and clear the snow, the
county may do so at the expense of the person.
(d) Expense a lien.
(1) If the person does not pay the expense incurred by the
county for snow removal under this section, the expense shall be a
lien on the property in the same manner as taxes, and shall be
collected in the same manner provided by law for the collection of
taxes.
(2) Charges and assessments imposed under this subsection are
benefit charges and may not exceed a reasonable estimate of the
special benefit conferred on the property.
(e) Removal of ice. The person required to remove and clear snow
also shall keep ice and every type of obstruction out of the gutters
leading to and off the pavements or sidewalks located in front or at
the rear or sides of the same buildings.
(f) Penalty. In addition to the other remedies provided in this
section, a person who fails to comply with this section is guilty of a
misdemeanor and subject to a fine of $25 for each failure and an
additional $25 for each day the obstruction continues.
(1988 Code, § 31-8) (Bill No. 3, 1990, § 2; Bill No. 66-01, § 2,
7-1-2004)"

That is all there so the city doesn't get sued!

Right, so the homeowner does; the city did their part.

On 12/10/2013 11:24 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
micky wrote:

...snip...


You guys are all pretty much right!!

" 18-3-107. REMOVAL OF SNOW AND ICE.
(a) Required. Within 24 hours after the fall of any snow, each
person or public institution occupying or using a residential,
commercial, or industrial building in any manner or for any purpose
shall remove and clear away, or cause to be removed and cleared away,
the snow from the foot pavements fronting the respective houses,
stores, shops, stables, houses of worship, lots occupied by any
buildings, unoccupied buildings, and unoccupied lots that run along
streets in the county.

=== It doesn't explicitly say "all of the sidewalk" so what a lawyer
would do is argue that a person in my shoes was "substantially
compliant". That works sometimes, here it would probably be easier
to pay their charge for shoveling.

...snip...

No, it doesn't say "all of the sidewalk", it says "clear away...the snow
from the foot pavements".

Don't have the original posting and don't know if the ordinance mentions
it but does the ordinance give the homeowner immunity from liability for
complying with the ordinance and removing the snow, etc.?

It's pretty well settled in the law, I am told, that if you do NOT
shovel your sidewalk and a passerby slips and falls it's on him, not
you. However, if you go out, shovel the snow and there's a freeze thaw
cycle that creates ice (black or otherwise) and you do nothing to
remediate it, and the next goof walks by and breaks his leg... guess
what? You could be held liable. Another variant, I guess, of don't
mess with Mother Nature.

On 12/10/2013 7:42 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 12/10/2013 11:24 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
micky wrote:

...snip...


You guys are all pretty much right!!

" 18-3-107. REMOVAL OF SNOW AND ICE.
(a) Required. Within 24 hours after the fall of any snow, each
person or public institution occupying or using a residential,
commercial, or industrial building in any manner or for any purpose
shall remove and clear away, or cause to be removed and cleared away,
the snow from the foot pavements fronting the respective houses,
stores, shops, stables, houses of worship, lots occupied by any
buildings, unoccupied buildings, and unoccupied lots that run along
streets in the county.

=== It doesn't explicitly say "all of the sidewalk" so what a lawyer
would do is argue that a person in my shoes was "substantially
compliant". That works sometimes, here it would probably be easier
to pay their charge for shoveling.

...snip...

No, it doesn't say "all of the sidewalk", it says "clear away...the snow
from the foot pavements".

Don't have the original posting and don't know if the ordinance mentions
it but does the ordinance give the homeowner immunity from liability for
complying with the ordinance and removing the snow, etc.?

It's pretty well settled in the law, I am told, that if you do NOT
shovel your sidewalk and a passerby slips and falls it's on him, not
you. However, if you go out, shovel the snow and there's a freeze thaw
cycle that creates ice (black or otherwise) and you do nothing to
remediate it, and the next goof walks by and breaks his leg... guess
what? You could be held liable. Another variant, I guess, of don't
mess with Mother Nature.


I've always thought that way - if there is snow on the walk, the
pedestrian knows what they are getting into and it's up to them whether
to walk there or not. Not talking about in commercial areas etc, but in
my neighborhood where there really aren't pedestrians other than the
mailman and the occasional dog walker. It snowed here the night before
last, and I shoveled my driveway and not the sidewalk. The driveway
still had a thin refreezing slush on it, that hindered my walking on it.
I actually found it safer to walk in the snowy areas. This was for 2-3
inches of snow; obviously wouldn't work for a foot but we don't usually
(knock on wood) get that much.