I don't blame you if you don't believe this. If I hadn't seen it
personally, I wouldn't either. Here's the situation.

After 10 years, the caulking around the base of the toilet and the tile
floor it sits on started look shabby. So I removed it. Before replacing
it, I took a shower. After getting out of the shower, I noticed that the
rug in front of the toilet was wet. I thought that maybe one of the two
sliding shower doors wasn't fully closed. So I just wiped the floor dry.

Next day, still with no caulk around the base of the toilet, I showered
again. Now I could see water oozing out from around the toilet base. The
shower nozzle is at the end of a 6' hose, so while standing in front of
the toilet I aimed the nozzle directly into the shower drain (about 32
inches away), hoping to see water seep out from the toilet base. That
didn't happen.

Next, I removed the toilet and again aimed the nozzle directly into the
shower drain, for longer than it takes me to shower. By listening at the
toilet drain, I could hear the water running out the shower drain, but
no water was visible at the toilet drain.

There is no sluggishness in the shower drain or when the toilet flushes,
so I have to rule out a partial blockage past the point both drains
merge. Since the house is on a slab, and I only weight 145 pounds, I
can't attribute the oozing due to floor deflection when I'm standing in
the shower. And there's no seepage when I flush the toilet.

It would appear that the old caulk was damming back the water, but there
was no caulk at the back of the toilet because it was too hard to reach
that spot. So any dammed water could have escaped at the back.

The old wax ring was still soft and sticky, but there was some black
discoloration (maybe mold) at one point. There may have also been a
passageway between the inner and outer diameters at this point.

I installed a new wax ring and that was the end of the problem (still
with no new caulk). But I can't figure out where the water came from,
even if there had be no old wax ring at all.

Possibly there's a tiny leak in the bowl itself, but I don't see
evidence, either from leakage around the base or from a lowering of the
water level after a few hours of disuse.

Intriguing problem. And ideas? Maybe something bizarre with air pressure
in the vent to the roof.

On Sunday, August 4, 2013 7:53:29 PM UTC-7, Rebel1 wrote:
I don't blame you if you don't believe this. If I hadn't seen it

personally, I wouldn't either. Here's the situation.



After 10 years, the caulking around the base of the toilet and the tile

floor it sits on started look shabby. So I removed it. Before replacing

it, I took a shower. After getting out of the shower, I noticed that the

rug in front of the toilet was wet. I thought that maybe one of the two

sliding shower doors wasn't fully closed. So I just wiped the floor dry.



Next day, still with no caulk around the base of the toilet, I showered

again. Now I could see water oozing out from around the toilet base. The

shower nozzle is at the end of a 6' hose, so while standing in front of

the toilet I aimed the nozzle directly into the shower drain (about 32

inches away), hoping to see water seep out from the toilet base. That

didn't happen.



Next, I removed the toilet and again aimed the nozzle directly into the

shower drain, for longer than it takes me to shower. By listening at the

toilet drain, I could hear the water running out the shower drain, but

no water was visible at the toilet drain.



There is no sluggishness in the shower drain or when the toilet flushes,

so I have to rule out a partial blockage past the point both drains

merge. Since the house is on a slab, and I only weight 145 pounds, I

can't attribute the oozing due to floor deflection when I'm standing in

the shower. And there's no seepage when I flush the toilet.



It would appear that the old caulk was damming back the water, but there

was no caulk at the back of the toilet because it was too hard to reach

that spot. So any dammed water could have escaped at the back.



The old wax ring was still soft and sticky, but there was some black

discoloration (maybe mold) at one point. There may have also been a

passageway between the inner and outer diameters at this point.



I installed a new wax ring and that was the end of the problem (still

with no new caulk). But I can't figure out where the water came from,

even if there had be no old wax ring at all.



Possibly there's a tiny leak in the bowl itself, but I don't see

evidence, either from leakage around the base or from a lowering of the

water level after a few hours of disuse.



Intriguing problem. And ideas? Maybe something bizarre with air pressure

in the vent to the roof.

1. Check your vent. That’s that black pipe sticking out from the roof, to see it it’s clear.
2. Why do you have caulk around your toilet?

Rebel:

The water you saw and wiped up was condensation.

People generally use the washroom immediately before having a shower or bath.

And, people generally flush the toilet after using it, thereby filling the toilet tank with cold water.

Then, they proceed with their shower or bath, thereby filling the bathroom air with humidity.

That humidity condenses on the cold toilet tank and causes the toilet tank to sweat. That water drips off the tank onto the floor, or runs down the outside of the toilet bowl, primarily at the back of the bowl. The result is condensation dripping onto your floor, and I expect that condensation was simply dammed from leaking out because of the caulk.

When you removed the caulk, you allowed that dammed up water under the tank to escape. It might not all have been from the shower you just had. It might have been water that had been dammed up for weeks.

Try having a shower without using THAT toilet. Use a different toilet in your house, or one in a restaurant or gas station.
Do you have any "leakage" from the toilet tank after showering? If not, then it wasn't water leakage to begin with. It was condensation.

Alternatively, do exactly the same thing you did last time, and upon finding water at the front of the toilet, check the bottom of your toilet tank for condensation.

Also:
You said:
The very fact that the water you wiped up ran to the FRONT of the toilet shows that your floor does slope slightly downward toward the front of the toilet. So, any water dammed up by that caulk couldn't run out the back of the toilet, cut water doesn't run uphill.

PS:
I own a small apartment block, and I regularily get tenants telling me their toilet must be leaking because they find water on the floor around the toilet. Most of the time it turns out to be condensation.

On Sun, 04 Aug 2013 22:53:29 -0400, Rebel1
wrote:


It would appear that the old caulk was damming back the water, but there
was no caulk at the back of the toilet because it was too hard to reach
that spot. So any dammed water could have escaped at the back.

I remember reading a recommendation that when caulking the base of a
toilet, to leave an inch in the back uncaulked, so that leaking would
show up on the floor, to be fixed.

Rebel:

Also, you should know that floor tiles are set individually, and by hand, and so it's normal for them to not all be exactly the same height. Most of the time that's not a problem because the elevation differences aren't enough to trip over. But, they can be enough to cause a toilet bowl to rock a little.

Consequently, it's common for tile setters to jam coins under the toilet bowl to prevent that rocking OR caulk around the base of the bowl to minimize movement of the bowl. The caulk around the front of your bowl was very possibly put there by the people who tiled the floor to prevent the bowl from rocking.

Really, the place to caulk is around the toilet floor flange and to caulk up any holes in the floor flange itself. That way, if your wax seal leaks, the water won't leak into the floor to cause wood rot or water damage to the ceiling below. It'll leak out onto the floor beside the toilet to alert you of a leaking wax seal.

A caulk called Kop-R-Lastic sticks well to both ABS and PVC floor flanges. Both Kop-R-Lastic and Stone Mason Gutter & Siding Sealant are exactly the same caulk being sold in different tubes by the same manufacturer. In Canada, both products are made by the U.S.E. Hickson Company and in the US, both are made by the Henrys company. In Canada, Home Depot sells Stone Mason Gutter & Siding Sealant, but only in the area of the store where they sell evestroughing materials; not in their painting area. Also, Kop-R-Lastic can be ordered in about 10 different colours, but Home Depot only sells Stone Mason Gutter & Siding Sealant in white and clear. Use this stuff to caulk around your toilet floor flange the next time you take the toilet off.

Stone Mason Gutter & Siding Sealant is my favouritest caulk. It sticks well right away, so that it has good ADhesion to building materials, but over the course of the next three to five years, the synthetic rubber molecules in it crosslink with each other, making it a bit stiffer, but raising it's COhesive strength above it's adhesive strength. That means it sticks to itself even better than it sticks to common construction materials. That's a real advantage because if you ever want to remove the stuff, you just get one end of it started, and it pulls off like a rubber rope. It is hard to pull it off, but it pulls off cleanly, making the job of re-caulking very much faster and easier because completely removing the old caulk only takes a minute. I won't use any other caulk on the 66 windows in my building because with this stuff, insufficient adhesion is never a problem, but removing it when you want/need to is a breeze.

"Rebel1" wrote in message
...
I don't blame you if you don't believe this. If I hadn't seen it
personally, I wouldn't either. Here's the situation.
After 10 years, the caulking around the base of the toilet and the tile
floor it sits on started look shabby. So I removed it. Before replacing
it, I took a shower. After getting out of the shower, I noticed that the
rug in front of the toilet was wet. I thought that maybe one of the two
sliding shower doors wasn't fully closed. So I just wiped the floor dry.
Next day, still with no caulk around the base of the toilet, I showered
again. Now I could see water oozing out from around the toilet base. The
shower nozzle is at the end of a 6' hose, so while standing in front of
the toilet I aimed the nozzle directly into the shower drain (about 32
inches away), hoping to see water seep out from the toilet base. That
didn't happen.
Next, I removed the toilet and again aimed the nozzle directly into the
shower drain, for longer than it takes me to shower. By listening at the
toilet drain, I could hear the water running out the shower drain, but no
water was visible at the toilet drain.
There is no sluggishness in the shower drain or when the toilet flushes,
so I have to rule out a partial blockage past the point both drains merge.
Since the house is on a slab, and I only weight 145 pounds, I can't
attribute the oozing due to floor deflection when I'm standing in the
shower. And there's no seepage when I flush the toilet.
It would appear that the old caulk was damming back the water, but there
was no caulk at the back of the toilet because it was too hard to reach
that spot. So any dammed water could have escaped at the back.
The old wax ring was still soft and sticky, but there was some black
discoloration (maybe mold) at one point. There may have also been a
passageway between the inner and outer diameters at this point.
I installed a new wax ring and that was the end of the problem (still with
no new caulk). But I can't figure out where the water came from, even if
there had be no old wax ring at all.


Bad old wax ring made the problem
and it will help to sake the shower too


Possibly there's a tiny leak in the bowl itself, but I don't see evidence,
either from leakage around the base or from a lowering of the water level
after a few hours of disuse.
Intriguing problem. And ideas? Maybe something bizarre with air pressure
in the vent to the roof.

On Sun, 04 Aug 2013 22:53:29 -0400, Rebel1
wrote:

I don't blame you if you don't believe this. If I hadn't seen it
personally, I wouldn't either. Here's the situation.



There is no sluggishness in the shower drain or when the toilet flushes,
so I have to rule out a partial blockage past the point both drains
merge. Since the house is on a slab, and I only weight 145 pounds, I
can't attribute the oozing due to floor deflection when I'm standing in
the shower. And there's no seepage when I flush the toilet.

I've had a similar problem. In addition to the shower, the washing
machine empties into a standpipe and joins the toilet and shower.

Twice, the washer backed it up enough that water came back into the
shower pan and around the toilet. I attribute it to a family member
that uses a LOT of paper and cause a partial blockage. The surge of
laundry water eventually flushed it out, but it happened again a few
months later.

In your case, the blockage may have been flushed out before you did
the testing.

On Mon, 5 Aug 2013 07:43:45 +0200, nestork
wrote:


Rebel:

The water you saw and wiped up was condensation.

People generally use the washroom immediately before having a shower or
bath.

And, people generally flush the toilet after using it, thereby filling
the toilet tank with cold water.


I really doubt it. After a single flush the water will not be all
that colds to condense that much moisture. I think he'd have seen the
tank sweating too.

On 8/5/2013 1:09 AM, wrote:



1. Check your vent. That’s that black pipe sticking out from the roof, to see it it’s clear.

I'll haul out the ladder and check. (Easy to do since it's a ranch house.)

2. Why do you have caulk around your toilet?

The caulk was strictly cosmetic, but now that I still haven't replaced
it after four days (because my gun is over a friend's house), maybe I'll
just not bother to do so. It look okay the way it it, and the guest
bathroom doesn't have any caulk and looks okay.

On 8/4/2013 10:53 PM, Rebel1 wrote:
I don't blame you if you don't believe this. If I hadn't seen it
personally, I wouldn't either. Here's the situation.

After 10 years, the caulking around the base of the toilet and the tile
floor it sits on started look shabby. So I removed it. Before replacing
it, I took a shower. After getting out of the shower, I noticed that the
rug in front of the toilet was wet. I thought that maybe one of the two
sliding shower doors wasn't fully closed. So I just wiped the floor dry.

Next day, still with no caulk around the base of the toilet, I showered
again. Now I could see water oozing out from around the toilet base. The
shower nozzle is at the end of a 6' hose, so while standing in front of
the toilet I aimed the nozzle directly into the shower drain (about 32
inches away), hoping to see water seep out from the toilet base. That
didn't happen.

Next, I removed the toilet and again aimed the nozzle directly into the
shower drain, for longer than it takes me to shower. By listening at the
toilet drain, I could hear the water running out the shower drain, but
no water was visible at the toilet drain.

There is no sluggishness in the shower drain or when the toilet flushes,
so I have to rule out a partial blockage past the point both drains
merge. Since the house is on a slab, and I only weight 145 pounds, I
can't attribute the oozing due to floor deflection when I'm standing in
the shower. And there's no seepage when I flush the toilet.

It would appear that the old caulk was damming back the water, but there
was no caulk at the back of the toilet because it was too hard to reach
that spot. So any dammed water could have escaped at the back.

There is normally a gap at the back to allow water to emerge if the
toilet drain leaks. We had the same problem, along with a bad sewer
line, in our condo....when the ring was replaced, the toilet back on,
the plumber told us it was best to use grout, not caulk, around the base
of the toilet.....firmer and keeps toilet from moving better than caulk.

The old wax ring was still soft and sticky, but there was some black
discoloration (maybe mold) at one point. There may have also been a
passageway between the inner and outer diameters at this point.

I installed a new wax ring and that was the end of the problem (still
with no new caulk). But I can't figure out where the water came from,
even if there had be no old wax ring at all.

Possibly there's a tiny leak in the bowl itself, but I don't see
evidence, either from leakage around the base or from a lowering of the
water level after a few hours of disuse.

Intriguing problem. And ideas? Maybe something bizarre with air pressure
in the vent to the roof.

On Sun, 04 Aug 2013 22:53:29 -0400, Rebel1
wrote:

I don't blame you if you don't believe this. If I hadn't seen it
personally, I wouldn't either. Here's the situation.

After 10 years, the caulking around the base of the toilet and the tile
floor it sits on started look shabby. So I removed it. Before replacing
it, I took a shower. After getting out of the shower, I noticed that the
rug in front of the toilet was wet. I thought that maybe one of the two
sliding shower doors wasn't fully closed. So I just wiped the floor dry.

Next day, still with no caulk around the base of the toilet, I showered
again. Now I could see water oozing out from around the toilet base. The
shower nozzle is at the end of a 6' hose, so while standing in front of
the toilet I aimed the nozzle directly into the shower drain (about 32
inches away), hoping to see water seep out from the toilet base. That
didn't happen.

Next, I removed the toilet and again aimed the nozzle directly into the
shower drain, for longer than it takes me to shower. By listening at the
toilet drain, I could hear the water running out the shower drain, but
no water was visible at the toilet drain.

There is no sluggishness in the shower drain or when the toilet flushes,
so I have to rule out a partial blockage past the point both drains
merge. Since the house is on a slab, and I only weight 145 pounds, I
can't attribute the oozing due to floor deflection when I'm standing in
the shower. And there's no seepage when I flush the toilet.

It would appear that the old caulk was damming back the water, but there
was no caulk at the back of the toilet because it was too hard to reach
that spot. So any dammed water could have escaped at the back.

The old wax ring was still soft and sticky, but there was some black
discoloration (maybe mold) at one point. There may have also been a
passageway between the inner and outer diameters at this point.

I installed a new wax ring and that was the end of the problem (still
with no new caulk). But I can't figure out where the water came from,
even if there had be no old wax ring at all.

Possibly there's a tiny leak in the bowl itself, but I don't see
evidence, either from leakage around the base or from a lowering of the
water level after a few hours of disuse.

Intriguing problem. And ideas? Maybe something bizarre with air pressure
in the vent to the roof.

Is shower composite bottom or ceramic tile?
Possibly a leak in shower floor at edge of pan migrating to the tile
to concrete seal under the toilet flange.
Silicone grout sealer applied to shower floor and floor/'wall joints
may stop water migration.
--
Mr.E

Thanks nestork for both your messages. You presented possibilities I
hadn't considered.

The floor is fairly level. Using a 2' level with one end on the floor at
the back of the bowl, the front end is about 1/8" (a nickle plus a
penny) lower. So yes, there is a slight tilt. I laid the 8" tiles over a
concrete slab 10 years ago; don't remember caulking to prevent rocking,
but merely as a cosmetic touch.

(As an aside, parts of this house are way out of square, but you can't
see it. For example, I placed one end of a 4' level against the wall
just above the base molding held it vertically. The wall at the top of
the level is a full 3/4 inch away!)

Your comments about humidity and condensation are possibilities. I do
use the toilet before showering, but I don't remember seeing any
sweating on the outside of the bowl or tank, just seepage at the floor.
It's very possible that the water had been accumulated days or even
weeks before I removed the caulk. It's been very humid here in New
Jersey for well over a week. That could also explain the black stuff
(mold?) on the old ring.

One flaw in this theory: When I first removed the caulk, any dammed
water should have drained right away, and not waited until I showered,
which was some time (maybe hours) later. Next day I took a shower and
the same seepage occurred during the shower. If I had thought of the
things you suggested, I would have waited another day before taking a
third shower. But after the second instance, I just removed the bowl and
replaced the wax.

So far, without replacing the caulk, there is no seepage. The humidity
is very comfortable these days, but I'll watch for condensation in the
upcoming weeks. I could have missed seeing it if it formed at the back
of the tank and dribbled onto the slightly sloping floor and then under
bowl via the uncaulked back.

Again, thanks for your replies.

R1

On 8/5/2013 1:43 AM, nestork wrote:
Rebel:

The water you saw and wiped up was condensation.

People generally use the washroom immediately before having a shower or
bath.

And, people generally flush the toilet after using it, thereby filling
the toilet tank with cold water.

Then, they proceed with their shower or bath, thereby filling the
bathroom air with humidity.

That humidity condenses on the cold toilet tank and causes the toilet
tank to sweat. That water drips off the tank onto the floor, or runs
down the outside of the toilet bowl, primarily at the back of the bowl.
The result is condensation dripping onto your floor, and I expect that
condensation was simply dammed from leaking out because of the caulk.

When you removed the caulk, you allowed that dammed up water under the
tank to escape. It might not all have been from the shower you just
had. It might have been water that had been dammed up for weeks.

Try having a shower without using THAT toilet. Use a different toilet
in your house, or one in a restaurant or gas station.
Do you have any "leakage" from the toilet tank after showering? If not,
then it wasn't water leakage to begin with. It was condensation.

Alternatively, do exactly the same thing you did last time, and upon
finding water at the front of the toilet, check the bottom of your
toilet tank for condensation.

Also:
You said:
It would appear that the old caulk was damming back the water, but there

was no caulk at the back of the toilet because it was too hard to reach

that spot. So any dammed water could have escaped at the back.

The very fact that the water you wiped up ran to the FRONT of the toilet
shows that your floor does slope slightly downward toward the front of
the toilet. So, any water dammed up by that caulk couldn't run out the
back of the toilet, cut water doesn't run uphill.

PS:
I own a small apartment block, and I regularily get tenants telling me
their toilet must be leaking because they find water on the floor around
the toilet. When I inquire further, they tell me that they had a shower
or bath before discovering the water. So, I just tell them to use a
mirror to check the underside of their toilet tank the next time that
happens.

Rebel1 wrote:
Thanks nestork for both your messages. You presented possibilities I hadn't considered.

The floor is fairly level. Using a 2' level with one end on the floor at
the back of the bowl, the front end is about 1/8" (a nickle plus a penny)
lower. So yes, there is a slight tilt.

Slight tilt?

I certainly wouldn't call a 1/8" drop in 2 feet "fairly level".

Stolen without permission from
http://www.nachi.org/forum/f18/floor-slope-68633/

"The "Residential Construction Performance Guidelines for Professional
Builders and Remodelers", Third Edition, by the National Association of
Home Builders allows that a floor should not slope more than 1/2" in 20
feet."

If the slope you measured in that 2 foot space is consistent across the
room, then you'd be down 1/2" in only 8. That's definitely not "fairly
level".

On Mon, 05 Aug 2013 02:25:20 -0400, micky
wrote:

I remember reading a recommendation that when caulking the base of a
toilet, to leave an inch in the back uncaulked, so that leaking would
show up on the floor, to be fixed.

Some toilets have a "notch" in the back just for this purpose; in case
the bowl develops and internal crack and the leak becomes known to the
owner. The notch is shaped like a half-moon.

Never caulk that section.

Toilet tanks may also have them on the back of the tank. If the flush
valve breaks or constantly fills, water will drain out on the back of
the tank.

I prefer to caulk the bottom of the toilet. Others may not.

On Mon, 05 Aug 2013 08:38:26 -0400, Rebel1
wrote:

1. Check your vent. That’s that black pipe sticking out from the roof, to see it it’s clear.

I'll haul out the ladder and check. (Easy to do since it's a ranch house.)


A water hose is a very good way to clear or check the vent pipe. Run
the water and a helper can listen at the toilet and watch for possible
water.

Rebel:

Pull of 3 or 4 squares of paper towel and lay it out behind your toilet under the tank.

Not only will the dark spots or areas on the paper towels make it easier to see condensation dripping off the tank, but the embossed pattern on the towel will relax if it gets wet. So, even if the towel gets wet and dries out again, the flatted embossing will prove it was wet, but dried out again.

This is totally off topic, but it's interesting...

Take a paper towel and put a drop of water on it.
Notice how the wet circle is darker than the surrounding white paper towel?
Now, hold the towel up to the light.
Notice how the wet circle is now brighter than the surrounding paper towel?
Why is that?
And, the answer to this question will explain why your blue jeans are darker when they're wet... AND how wet t-shirt contests work. That is, why wet cotton is more transparent than dry cotton.

"Rebel1" wrote in message news:PENLt.239313$%

(As an aside, parts of this house are way out of square, but you can't
see it. For example, I placed one end of a 4' level against the wall
just above the base molding held it vertically. The wall at the top of
the level is a full 3/4 inch away!)

Didn't you have window closing problems that I thought might be related to
settling?

Have you checked the input connection through the tank wall?. If that leaks
it can work it way down to the base of the toilet quite easily.

I just put a level on my shower drain pipe (about a 6' run) and found that
it's negatively pitched. The huge cast iron waste stack that it's connected
to apparently held its ground as the house settled around it. That slowed
caused the shower drain pitch to go towards zero inches per foot and causes
it to clog up regularly. The fix eludes me. )-:

--
Bobby G.

"Hot-Text" wrote in message

stuff snipped

Bad old wax ring made the problem
and it will help to sake the shower too

How much sake should you use? (-:

--
Bobby G.

If push comes to shove, you can have the shower drain pipe empty into a large plastic barrel (with cover to reduce humidity) and have a sump pump (or even a sewage pump) in that barrel pumping the water into the same place in the stack.

My understanding of the difference between a sump pump and a sewage pump is that a sewage pump has two stages, both driven by the same motor shaft. The first stage has blades that slice and dice everything, and the second stage just has an ordinary impeller. So, the blades turn any solids to mush and toilet paper into confetti so that they don't clog the typically smaller piping they're being pumped through. Both are made to be submersible.

"Robert Green" wrote:
"Rebel1" wrote in message news:PENLt.239313$%

(As an aside, parts of this house are way out of square, but you can't
see it. For example, I placed one end of a 4' level against the wall
just above the base molding held it vertically. The wall at the top of
the level is a full 3/4 inch away!)

Didn't you have window closing problems that I thought might be related to
settling?

Have you checked the input connection through the tank wall?. If that leaks
it can work it way down to the base of the toilet quite easily.

I just put a level on my shower drain pipe (about a 6' run) and found that
it's negatively pitched. The huge cast iron waste stack that it's connected
to apparently held its ground as the house settled around it. That slowed
caused the shower drain pitch to go towards zero inches per foot and causes
it to clog up regularly. The fix eludes me. )-:


3,414 possible fixes pictured here...

http://www.houzz.com/raised-tub-platform

"Robert Green" wrote:
"Rebel1" wrote in message news:PENLt.239313$%

(As an aside, parts of this house are way out of square, but you can't
see it. For example, I placed one end of a 4' level against the wall
just above the base molding held it vertically. The wall at the top of
the level is a full 3/4 inch away!)

Didn't you have window closing problems that I thought might be related to
settling?

Have you checked the input connection through the tank wall?. If that leaks
it can work it way down to the base of the toilet quite easily.

I just put a level on my shower drain pipe (about a 6' run) and found that
it's negatively pitched. The huge cast iron waste stack that it's connected
to apparently held its ground as the house settled around it. That slowed
caused the shower drain pitch to go towards zero inches per foot and causes
it to clog up regularly. The fix eludes me. )-:

--
Bobby G.

I have no idea if this will work but I'll toss it out anyway.

What if you installed a trap right where the drain enters the stack, with
the input lower than the output. Do you think you could get enough slope in
the drain pipe to push the water up and out the trap?

Perhaps there's a balance somewhere between the zero slope you have now and
whatever amount of slope it takes, combined with a small trap at the end,
to keep the water flowing enough to reduce the clogs.

Sounds weird, and I'd wonder what the heck was going on if I saw something
like that, but maybe it would work.

Why not do exactly the same thing with the p-trap where it is.

That is, the downstream half of the "U" would simply extend up to a higher elevation to provide for a downward slope to the stack. I can't see that being a violation of the plumbing code because, so far as I know, the code doesn't say anything about how deep the "trap" of a p-trap can be.

I expect that you could modify a COMMERCIAL brass p-trap like this one:

http://www.lyncar.com/plumbing/images/dvd/34300.jpg

with a short piece of 1 1/2 inch copper pipe soldered in between the two halves of the p-trap. I'd take that pipe to a muffler shop to see if they could expand one end of it, just like they do steel exhaust pipes. Expanded the right amount, so that the new ID is exactly the same as the old OD, then that piece of copper pipe would fit between the two halves of the brass p-trap to elevate the outlet of the trap as much as you want (depending on the length of the 1 1/2 inch copper pipe you use). If you use Type K copper pipe instead of DWV, you'd have extra wall thickness to allow for more expansion of the pipe end.

That will give you the elevation gain you need to provide a downward slope to the stack.

And, I don't see why anything there would violate any plumbing code because all you have is a "deeper" than normal p-trap.

On Monday, August 5, 2013 3:47:15 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
"Robert Green" wrote:

"Rebel1" wrote in message news:PENLt.239313$%



(As an aside, parts of this house are way out of square, but you can't

see it. For example, I placed one end of a 4' level against the wall

just above the base molding held it vertically. The wall at the top of

the level is a full 3/4 inch away!)



Didn't you have window closing problems that I thought might be related to

settling?



Have you checked the input connection through the tank wall?. If that leaks

it can work it way down to the base of the toilet quite easily.



I just put a level on my shower drain pipe (about a 6' run) and found that

it's negatively pitched. The huge cast iron waste stack that it's connected

to apparently held its ground as the house settled around it. That slowed

caused the shower drain pitch to go towards zero inches per foot and causes

it to clog up regularly. The fix eludes me. )-:



--

Bobby G.



I have no idea if this will work but I'll toss it out anyway.



What if you installed a trap right where the drain enters the stack, with

the input lower than the output. Do you think you could get enough slope in

the drain pipe to push the water up and out the trap?



Perhaps there's a balance somewhere between the zero slope you have now and

whatever amount of slope it takes, combined with a small trap at the end,

to keep the water flowing enough to reduce the clogs.



Sounds weird, and I'd wonder what the heck was going on if I saw something

like that, but maybe it would work.

I never caulk around toilets. I set the toilet on new tile before the thinset hardens to make sure it doesn't rock.

nestork wrote:
DerbyDad03;3102473 Wrote:

Sounds weird, and I'd wonder what the heck was going on if I saw
something
like that, but maybe it would work.

I don't believe that anyone's plumbing code would be so accomodating as
to allow you to put your p-trap at whichever end of the drain pipe you
prefer.

Also, you'd no longer be able to clear that 6 foot drain with a snake
cuz all the crap you scrape off the inside of the drain pipe would end
up settling to the bottom o the P-trap and clogging it up.





I'm not suggesting moving the trap...I'm suggesting adding a trap at the
end near the stack, just enough to add some slope to the existing pipe.

Fernco fittings would make cleaning that section of pipe very easy.

You snipped a major portion of my post, including the part where I said
that my suggestion might not even work, so I'm just adding that back in so
everyone knows that it was just a brainstorming idea on how to add some
slope to the pipe without having to change the connection at the stack

Your suggestion WILL work, just do what you're thinking at the upstream end of the drain pipe, where the existing trap is.

Re-read my previous post. I changed it when I realized that you could do what you were thinking, but you could only do it at the upstream end.

On 8/5/2013 12:10 PM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 05 Aug 2013 08:38:26 -0400, Rebel1
wrote:

1. Check your vent. That’s that black pipe sticking out from the roof, to see it it’s clear.

I'll haul out the ladder and check. (Easy to do since it's a ranch house.)


A water hose is a very good way to clear or check the vent pipe. Run
the water and a helper can listen at the toilet and watch for possible
water.


Thanks for the excellent suggestion.

On 8/5/2013 11:32 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Rebel1 wrote:
Thanks nestork for both your messages. You presented possibilities I hadn't considered.

The floor is fairly level. Using a 2' level with one end on the floor at
the back of the bowl, the front end is about 1/8" (a nickle plus a penny)
lower. So yes, there is a slight tilt.

Slight tilt?

I certainly wouldn't call a 1/8" drop in 2 feet "fairly level".

Stolen without permission from
http://www.nachi.org/forum/f18/floor-slope-68633/

"The "Residential Construction Performance Guidelines for Professional
Builders and Remodelers", Third Edition, by the National Association of
Home Builders allows that a floor should not slope more than 1/2" in 20
feet."

If the slope you measured in that 2 foot space is consistent across the
room, then you'd be down 1/2" in only 8’. That's definitely not "fairly
level".

I didn't know what the standard was, so it seemed reasonable to me.
FWIW, the distance from the wall behind the tank to the opposite one is
54 inches.

On 8/5/2013 2:06 PM, Robert Green wrote:
"Rebel1" wrote in message news:PENLt.239313$%

(As an aside, parts of this house are way out of square, but you can't
see it. For example, I placed one end of a 4' level against the wall
just above the base molding held it vertically. The wall at the top of
the level is a full 3/4 inch away!)

Didn't you have window closing problems that I thought might be related to
settling?

Have you checked the input connection through the tank wall?. If that leaks
it can work it way down to the base of the toilet quite easily.

I just put a level on my shower drain pipe (about a 6' run) and found that
it's negatively pitched. The huge cast iron waste stack that it's connected
to apparently held its ground as the house settled around it. That slowed
caused the shower drain pitch to go towards zero inches per foot and causes
it to clog up regularly. The fix eludes me. )-:

--
Bobby G.


The water supply is about 5.25" above the floor. It connects to the
bottom of the tank, which is 15" above the floor. Everything is dry there.

The off-vertical wall I mentioned is an interior wall (no window). The
outside ones are much closer to vertical. A uniform slope (i.e., the
same on both side of the window) wouldn't cause a problem.

The house was built in 1969 on a slab. When I bought it in 2000, I
immediately changed all window, mainly to save energy. Perhaps the
original ones had become hard to operate, but that was not a factor.

On 8/5/2013 12:03 PM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 05 Aug 2013 02:25:20 -0400, micky
wrote:

I remember reading a recommendation that when caulking the base of a
toilet, to leave an inch in the back uncaulked, so that leaking would
show up on the floor, to be fixed.

Some toilets have a "notch" in the back just for this purpose; in case
the bowl develops and internal crack and the leak becomes known to the
owner. The notch is shaped like a half-moon.

Never caulk that section.

Toilet tanks may also have them on the back of the tank. If the flush
valve breaks or constantly fills, water will drain out on the back of
the tank.

I prefer to caulk the bottom of the toilet. Others may not.


My bowl, an American Standard, does not have such a notch. However, the
bowl straddles two tiles, and the grout line is about 1/16" below the
face of the tiles, so condensation from the tank could drip onto the
floor and get below the bowl via that gap. But I never saw condensation.
When I removed the toilet, I removed the tank separately from the bowl,
so I certainly would have felt condensation on the tank.

as? Maybe something bizarre with air pressure
in the vent to the roof.

Is shower composite bottom or ceramic tile?
Possibly a leak in shower floor at edge of pan migrating to the tile
to concrete seal under the toilet flange.
Silicone grout sealer applied to shower floor and floor/'wall joints
may stop water migration.


The shower pan is a single piece, 31"x48". The side of the floor between
the bowl and pan was always dry, The seepage was from the front of the
bowl and the side opposite the pan.

The "standard" is that the floor be built with no intentional slope to it.

Your floor, just like mine, is "standard".

Rebel1 wrote:
On 8/5/2013 2:06 PM, Robert Green wrote:
"Rebel1" wrote in message news:PENLt.239313$%

(As an aside, parts of this house are way out of square, but you can't
see it. For example, I placed one end of a 4' level against the wall
just above the base molding held it vertically. The wall at the top of
the level is a full 3/4 inch away!)

Didn't you have window closing problems that I thought might be related to
settling?

Have you checked the input connection through the tank wall?. If that leaks
it can work it way down to the base of the toilet quite easily.

I just put a level on my shower drain pipe (about a 6' run) and found that
it's negatively pitched. The huge cast iron waste stack that it's connected
to apparently held its ground as the house settled around it. That slowed
caused the shower drain pitch to go towards zero inches per foot and causes
it to clog up regularly. The fix eludes me. )-:

--
Bobby G.


The water supply is about 5.25" above the floor. It connects to the
bottom of the tank, which is 15" above the floor. Everything is dry there.

The off-vertical wall I mentioned is an interior wall (no window). The
outside ones are much closer to vertical. A uniform slope (i.e., the same
on both side of the window) wouldn't cause a problem.

Really? Since windows have to be installed plumb to both operate smoothly
and be covered under their warranty, I can foresee problems with a out of
plumb wall. Somewhere along the way, something isn't going to fit right.
With a plumb window in an out of plumb wall, some trim or some framing or
something is going to be "a problem".


The house was built in 1969 on a slab. When I bought it in 2000, I
immediately changed all window, mainly to save energy. Perhaps the
original ones had become hard to operate, but that was not a factor.

So did you install the windows plumb or did you match the slope of the
wall? If you installed the windows the right way (plumb) then how did you
deal with the trim, such as the interior stops?

On 8/5/2013 11:42 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Rebel1 wrote:
On 8/5/2013 2:06 PM, Robert Green wrote:
"Rebel1" wrote in message news:PENLt.239313$%

(As an aside, parts of this house are way out of square, but you can't
see it. For example, I placed one end of a 4' level against the wall
just above the base molding held it vertically. The wall at the top of
the level is a full 3/4 inch away!)

Didn't you have window closing problems that I thought might be related to
settling?

Have you checked the input connection through the tank wall?. If that leaks
it can work it way down to the base of the toilet quite easily.

I just put a level on my shower drain pipe (about a 6' run) and found that
it's negatively pitched. The huge cast iron waste stack that it's connected
to apparently held its ground as the house settled around it. That slowed
caused the shower drain pitch to go towards zero inches per foot and causes
it to clog up regularly. The fix eludes me. )-:

--
Bobby G.


The water supply is about 5.25" above the floor. It connects to the
bottom of the tank, which is 15" above the floor. Everything is dry there.

The off-vertical wall I mentioned is an interior wall (no window). The
outside ones are much closer to vertical. A uniform slope (i.e., the same
on both side of the window) wouldn't cause a problem.

Really? Since windows have to be installed plumb to both operate smoothly
and be covered under their warranty, I can foresee problems with a out of
plumb wall. Somewhere along the way, something isn't going to fit right.
With a plumb window in an out of plumb wall, some trim or some framing or
something is going to be "a problem".

I'm missing something. If I go to a window showroom and take an
uninstalled window and lay it horizontally, why shouldn't the sashes
work as long as nothing is trying to distort (twist or rack) the frame
from its rectangular shape?


The house was built in 1969 on a slab. When I bought it in 2000, I
immediately changed all window, mainly to save energy. Perhaps the
original ones had become hard to operate, but that was not a factor.

So did you install the windows plumb or did you match the slope of the
wall? If you installed the windows the right way (plumb) then how did you
deal with the trim, such as the interior stops?

I can't answer these questions. I hired a pro to install 11 double-hung
windows, one entry door, one sliding patio door, and one bay window to
replace two side-by-side double-hung windows. I haven't had problems
with the operation of anything.

"nestork" wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

Also, you'd no longer be able to clear that 6 foot drain with a snake
cuz all the crap you scrape off the inside of the drain pipe would end
up settling to the bottom o the P-trap and clogging it up.

I can't clear it with a snake anyway. It's an old tub drain with a metal
plate across the opening about 1" down from the rim which now has a hairline
crack from the time I was dumb enough to think I was going to be able to
remove and replace it without damaging anything. I spent a long time
staring at the ceiling in the basement thinking about this today, and the
solution options aren't very good.

I believe the only way to counter the fact that the waste stack didn't
settle with the rest of the house is to cut a section of the wastepipe out
equal to the amount that the rest of the house has settled and then
Fernco'ing it together.

Or I could keep plunging the SOB until it forces me to do something. )-"
Standing water seems to have really increased the tuberculation of the pipes
from rust. Right now there's a soft plastic screen over the drain to keep
almost any kind of debris out of the drainpipe. It's a bummer.

--
Bobby G.

"Rebel1" wrote in message news:urWLt.272255

stuff snipped

The water supply is about 5.25" above the floor. It connects to the
bottom of the tank, which is 15" above the floor. Everything is dry there.

Sorry for asking, I should have known you checked but leaks can be so
insidious - like a chain of sugar ants going up electrical cords, under
cabinet edges, snaking through tiny holes, etc. Someone should invent a
spray that goes on like a white powder and when water hits it, it turns
blue.

I remember trying to track down a leak in a double basin sink and I would
dry everything off, run water into the sink and magically the pipes would be
wet again. It wasn't until I undid everything that I discovered one end of
a T fitting was only press-fit, not solvent welded.

The off-vertical wall I mentioned is an interior wall (no window). The
outside ones are much closer to vertical. A uniform slope (i.e., the
same on both side of the window) wouldn't cause a problem.

In my case the back has dropped 2". Back and front windows are still
square, but side windows are devolving into parallegrams. Very hard to open
parallegrams. )-:

The house was built in 1969 on a slab. When I bought it in 2000, I
immediately changed all window, mainly to save energy. Perhaps the
original ones had become hard to operate, but that was not a factor.

Did the same when I bought my house. The originals were double hung with
sash weights from 1941 and had six poorly-caulked individual panes to each
half. The unexpected benefit of double-pane Andersens was how quiet it got
with the windows tightly closed. The heating bill dropped like a paralyzed
falcon.

--
Bobby G.

"nestork" wrote in message
...

Robert Green;3102423 Wrote:

I just put a level on my shower drain pipe (about a 6' run) and found
that
it's negatively pitched. The huge cast iron waste stack that it's
connected
to apparently held its ground as the house settled around it. That
slowed
caused the shower drain pitch to go towards zero inches per foot and
causes
it to clog up regularly. The fix eludes me.

If push comes to shove, you can have the shower drain pipe empty into a
large plastic barrel (with cover to reduce humidity) and have a sump
pump (or even a sewage pump) in that barrel pumping the water into the
same place in the stack.

Gack! That would be pretty awkward in this tiny house.

My understanding of the difference between a sump pump and a sewage pump
is that a sewage pump has two stages, both driven by the same motor
shaft. The first stage has blades that slice and dice everything, and
the second stage just has an ordinary impeller. So, the blades turn any
solids to mush and toilet paper into confetti so that they don't clog
the typically smaller piping they're being pumped through. Both are
made to be submersible.

I think cutting two inches out of the main waste stack or lifting the tub
are the only practical options here. Except for continuing the plunging
regimen. It builds strong arm muscles. (-:

--
Bobby G.

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

stuff snipped

3,414 possible fixes pictured here...

http://www.houzz.com/raised-tub-platform

Somewhere in the middle of the first page there's a tiny bathroom with a
little stepstool. Shrink that bathroom to a 1941 Cape Cod and that's what I
am dealing with. It's interesting that the reason the shower/tub drain is
so badly out of whack is because of its length. The other drains coming off
the waste main don't have this problem. If I cut the main waste stack and
remove about 2" the tub drain line will have a good positive pitch again. I
think. What I fear is that the settling has put the 6' shower drain pipe
under pretty serious tension.

Some of those raised bathrooms are really beautiful. We've always been
planning to move into a much larger, newer house but now we're thinking
retirement community as Father Time hunts us down relentlessly. Two friends
have made the move and they're loving it. I could very easily decide the
drain was the straw that broke the camel's back and get us moved into sigh
senior living. I don't understand how this happened. It seems like just
yesterday the Beatles invaded the US and Batman was appearing on network TV
for the first time.

"Turn backwards, turn backwards Oh Time in your flight,
It turns out that getting old really does bite!"

--
Bobby G.

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
"Robert Green" wrote:
"Rebel1" wrote in message news:PENLt.239313$%

(As an aside, parts of this house are way out of square, but you can't
see it. For example, I placed one end of a 4' level against the wall
just above the base molding held it vertically. The wall at the top of
the level is a full 3/4 inch away!)

Didn't you have window closing problems that I thought might be related
to
settling?

Have you checked the input connection through the tank wall?. If that
leaks
it can work it way down to the base of the toilet quite easily.

I just put a level on my shower drain pipe (about a 6' run) and found
that
it's negatively pitched. The huge cast iron waste stack that it's
connected
to apparently held its ground as the house settled around it. That
slowed
caused the shower drain pitch to go towards zero inches per foot and
causes
it to clog up regularly. The fix eludes me. )-:

--
Bobby G.

I have no idea if this will work but I'll toss it out anyway.

What if you installed a trap right where the drain enters the stack, with
the input lower than the output. Do you think you could get enough slope
in
the drain pipe to push the water up and out the trap?

Perhaps there's a balance somewhere between the zero slope you have now
and
whatever amount of slope it takes, combined with a small trap at the end,
to keep the water flowing enough to reduce the clogs.

Sounds weird, and I'd wonder what the heck was going on if I saw something
like that, but maybe it would work.

That sounds like something to consider. I had to read it twice to figure
out what you were saying but that would restore the pitch even though it
might not be code. I am pretty nervous about sawing a 2" thick ring out of
the huge vertical waste pipe so just working with the tub drain segment
itself has serious appeal.

Everything was fine (well, not really, but I was unaware) until I read this
thread and decided to check the pitch of the tub drain pipe because it
needing plunging again today. Darn!

--
Bobby G.

On Tue, 6 Aug 2013 06:29:34 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:



Everything was fine (well, not really, but I was unaware) until I read this
thread and decided to check the pitch of the tub drain pipe because it
needing plunging again today. Darn!

Hey, relax. Everything is still copasetic.
Even with correct pitch - which isn't much pitch at all - tub/shower
drains tend to clog with hair. Mostly long hair at that.
Soap scum attaches to that.
I had to plunge mine occasionally, maybe every couple years.
Using bubble bath helps cut down the soap scum. I used a dose of dish
detergent in my bath for years, but my wife makes me use her bubble
bath. Says using dish detergent isn't "natural."
After I plunge to loosen the hair/scum, I run hot water through the
drain, then pour maybe a cup of dish detergent down the drain, and
flush again. More hot water, another cup of dish detergent, then let
it sit awhile. Put in the plug, fill the tub with hot water only,
then pull the plug. Might burn your arm a bit if it a rubber plug.
Course you could just tie a string to the plug ring, but that's no
fun.
Flows well again, then gradually slows until it's intolerable.
Bought a couple of these about a year ago.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
One for laundry tub to catch lint, because I had to unclog that drain
too, and one for the bath tub.
Look like the ones grandma and ma used 60 years ago, but you don't see
them in stores, at least I don't. Also, this works with the bath tub
pop-up drain plug.
Of course you have to clean it after each use.
I see people complaining in the Amazon reviews that "they have to
clean it or it stops working." Jesus H. Christ.
Wife wipes the hair/scum off with toilet paper after her bath.
I don't use it.
Don't know how she cleans the one on the laundry tub, but she does.
I can say they're working, because neither drain has slowed down
since. So it's the long hair in the bath and lint/threads coming out
of the washing machine that clog the drains.
But I bet you knew that already.

Vic Smith wrote:

....snip...

Bought a couple of these about a year ago.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
One for laundry tub to catch lint, because I had to unclog that drain
too, and one for the bath tub.

....snip...

Don't know how she cleans the one on the laundry tub, but she does.

She turns it over and rinses out the lint so that it goes down the drain.
;-)