On Tuesday, June 25, 2013 1:26:07 AM UTC-7, nestork wrote:
..snip...

[image:
http://ezdiyelectricity.com/images/w...g-diagram.jpg]

...snip...

That's greatest schematic I've ever seen! One glance and you easily see how the multi-switch works.

Exactly what I've got. The 'X' switch is a piece of cake to swap.
I'll have to examine the SPDT to see how they're marked, maybe it's obvious there too.

On 6/26/2013 9:46 AM, Robert Macy wrote:
On Tuesday, June 25, 2013 1:26:07 AM UTC-7, nestork wrote:
..snip...

....


That's greatest schematic I've ever seen! One glance and you easily
see how the multi-switch works.

Exactly what I've got. The 'X' switch is a piece of cake to swap.
I'll have to examine the SPDT to see how they're marked, maybe it's obvious there too.

Of course they are; how else would anybody wire them? The common is
different from the two travelers; the location of which terminal is
common is _not_ necessarily the same physically on various switches.

But, see the comments earlier--it still doesn't matter how you arrange
the travelers or orient the switches themselves in the boxes _unless_
you're also willing to only use them under very restrictive operating
conditions--otherwise they'll migrate to alternate positions w/ time as
the various ones are operated to turn lights/appliances/whatever on/off
individually. Soon unless you again do the exercise of placing them all
individually back to the one known state you still don't have the
desired result in general. That result is just not possible(+) w/o
those kinds of restrictions (which pretty much defeats the whole point
of having multiple locations to begin with).

(+) Again, w/ conventional house wiring using 3- and 4-way switches. It
could be done as others have noted w/ additional relay logic or such.

--

No, you're never going to be able to wire it so that no matter what the other switch toggle positions are, that you can always shut the light off by flipping any switch's toggle down. That won't work.

But, you can always return to the original situation where the light is OFF with all switch toggles down, and flipping ANY switch's toggle up turns the light on, which is what I think he wanted.

Well, you're doing better than me. I had to look at it for a while to understand that it couldn't "not work", and HAD TO work.

Think of it this way:

A) The two 3 way switches on the end are easy enough to understand. You have two conductors connecting the same terminals on both switches, and whether the light is on or off depends entirely on whether or not the two 3 way switches are set to send and recieve power through the same terminal on each switch or not.

B) The 4 way switches (however many you have of them) simply divert power to the "other" conductor every time their toggles are flipped.

So, regardless of how the two end 3-way switches are set, flipping the toggle of any of the intermediary 4 way switches will send power down the "other" conductor to the "other" terminal on the end three way switch, thereby turning the light on or off.

It's simple once you understand it. But, so is everything else on this good Earth.

Its probably easiest to run this setup on a X10 remote OR have momentary contact switches drive a relay.

both would cost less to install and be easier to trouble shoot in the future

nestork wrote in :


dpb;3084483 Wrote:
It's just not possible to have it wired conventionally no matter what
the initial configuration is w/o adding very heavy constraints on usage
and retain the possibility that turning any one switch in the down
position turns off an on light--the one closest by at the time may
already be 'down'.


No, you're never going to be able to wire it so that no matter what the
other switch toggle positions are, that you can always shut the light
off by flipping any switch's toggle down. That won't work.

Nonsense. Of course it will: changing the position of *any* of the switches changes the state
of the light. If it's on, and any switch is up, flipping that switch down will turn it off.

That, however, is not what the OP is asking to do.

But, you can always return to the original situation where the light is
OFF with all switch toggles down, and flipping ANY switch's toggle up
turns the light on, which is what I think he wanted.

No, that is not what he wanted. He made it very clear that he wanted to know by looking
which specific switch turned it on, *and* turn it off using that specific switch -- and does not
(and apparently cannot) understand that the first of these is impossible and the second
unnecessary.

On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 9:32:59 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 6/25/2013 3:26 AM, nestork wrote:

...



3. Now, just turn EITHER one of the two three way switches on the end

upside down. That way, when it's toggle is in the down position, the

light will be off, and flipping the toggle of ANY other switch will turn

the light ON.



...



set up all your switches so that the power goes through all the top

terminals when the toggles of the two three way switches are up, and

through all the bottom terminals when the toggles of the two three way

switches are down (and you may have to turn some 4 way switches upside

down to ensure they're all oriented the same). In that situation, with

the toggles of both 3 way switches on the end in the down position, the

light will be ON. By turning either three way switch upside down,

having the toggle in the down position will interrupt voltage getting to

the lamp, so that with one three way switch upside down, ALL toggles in

the down position means the light is OFF, and flipping ANY switch turns

the light ON.



Hope this helps.

...



It doesn't, really...



You also have to add the condition that he also never uses the other

switches than the particular panel location in question to control the

light as would be normally done--for example, use one near an entry door

to turn on as entering and another near the exit door to turn off as

leaving. As soon as that is done, he's now got a case where one's up

and one's down and the light's off again. As the pattern ensues of

more-or-less random movement between locations, the states again become

also, more or less random as to which is up and which is down when the

light is off.



It's just not possible to have it wired conventionally no matter what

the initial configuration is w/o adding very heavy constraints on usage

and retain the possibility that turning any one switch in the down

position turns off an on light--the one closest by at the time may

already be 'down'.




I'm amazed at how many people proceed with the "how to"
without understanding that they are tilting at windmills.
The most you can get with any of these rewiring attempts
is to get one defined position. If, for example you want
that one position to be that the light is off with all
switches in a down position, you can do that. Cool. But
just take out a piece of paper and make a table. With
4 switches, there are 16 possible combination of switch
position. List all 16 together with if the light is on
or off. With the rewiring or rotating of the switches,
you get ONE of those table entries to be all switches down,
light off. But that's all you get. There are other
table entries with the light off and the switches in
various states.

As I said previously, I can see achieving that to be of
some small value. For example, if you're leaving the
house for vacation and you want to look at each switchplate
in the house prior to leaving, if they are all down, then
all the lights are off. But you can't determine squat from
looking at one switch. And almost all of us would just look
at the light.

On Thursday, June 27, 2013 6:38:30 AM UTC-7, wrote:
...snip....
I'm amazed at how many people proceed with the "how to"
without understanding that they are tilting at windmills.
The most you can get with any of these rewiring attempts
is to get one defined position. If, for example you want
that one position to be that the light is off with all
switches in a down position, you can do that. Cool. But
just take out a piece of paper and make a table. With
4 switches, there are 16 possible combination of switch
position. List all 16 together with if the light is on
or off. With the rewiring or rotating of the switches,
you get ONE of those table entries to be all switches down,
light off. But that's all you get. There are other
table entries with the light off and the switches in
various states.

As I said previously, I can see achieving that to be of
some small value. For example, if you're leaving the
house for vacation and you want to look at each switchplate
in the house prior to leaving, if they are all down, then
all the lights are off. But you can't determine squat from
looking at one switch. And almost all of us would just look
at the light.

Glad they did. Learned a lot about wiring and potential wiring examples.

Being pedantic, four light switches yield 8 patterns ON and 8 patterns OFF for a 'total' of 16 patterns.

Of little value? I asked for factual help, not opinions, although opinions are of interest and appreciate hearing to better understand why the world is the way it is.

To better understand importance to me: again this home has many 'courtesy' light switches. There are multiple switches to turn ON/OFF the same light placed about home as a 'courtesy'. What I mean is, is that the likelihood of entering an area, using the light switch, exiting the area and using the SAME light switch is the most likely pattern of switch use. Many of the rooms have more than 3 such entrances/exits. and it is handy to be able to leave the switch in a known pattern. During the day, it is somehow pleasing to look about and see that all the light switches are in the OFF possitions, and all the little mounting screws are in the 12-6 position to add a touch of neatness and professionalism to the installation. [the screws were all placed in the identical positions by the original contractor, which I interpret as a sign of quality workmanship and attention to details]

As far as looking at the light to see if it is ON, yes, one can see the light is ON, but late at night in the attempt to turn that light OFF, I don't want to turn ON the major overhead lights, or one of the bedroom reading lights, or the ?? light as I fumble about at night trying to remember which switch will turn OFF the light [albeit I had just turned the light ON minutes before], which, yes, I can clearly see is now ON.

Maybe a better explanation is that, when in a hurry, when entering a room light switch panels have one order of control, but when exiting the room the order is reversed. Yes, I knnow that left is still left and right is still right, but that requres one to 'stop' and face the panel set, and 'think' about it. That's what I want to avoid. I want the simple menomic of a switch UP is ON and a swtich DOWN is OFF, then there is NO thinking, simply hit the switch when going by.

I understand that in smaller homes with 'tubular' hallways that have single switches in each panel that arbitrary positions of the switches are indeed a 'no never mind'

On Thursday, June 27, 2013 11:03:22 AM UTC-4, Robert Macy wrote:
On Thursday, June 27, 2013 6:38:30 AM UTC-7, wrote:

...snip....

I'm amazed at how many people proceed with the "how to"

without understanding that they are tilting at windmills.

The most you can get with any of these rewiring attempts

is to get one defined position. If, for example you want

that one position to be that the light is off with all

switches in a down position, you can do that. Cool. But

just take out a piece of paper and make a table. With

4 switches, there are 16 possible combination of switch

position. List all 16 together with if the light is on

or off. With the rewiring or rotating of the switches,

you get ONE of those table entries to be all switches down,

light off. But that's all you get. There are other

table entries with the light off and the switches in

various states.



As I said previously, I can see achieving that to be of

some small value. For example, if you're leaving the

house for vacation and you want to look at each switchplate

in the house prior to leaving, if they are all down, then

all the lights are off. But you can't determine squat from

looking at one switch. And almost all of us would just look

at the light.



Glad they did. Learned a lot about wiring and potential wiring examples.



Being pedantic, four light switches yield 8 patterns ON and 8 patterns OFF for a 'total' of 16 patterns.



Of little value? I asked for factual help, not opinions, although opinions are of interest and appreciate hearing to better understand why the world is the way it is.



The problem is, that as the problem was described and as most of
us understood it, there was no factual way to achieve it. Also,
if someone asks something that seems odd, it would seem better
that we try to fully understand what it is they are trying to
accomplish, rather than just giving directions. If someone asked
how to best apply tar coating to the drywall in their living
room, what would you do?




To better understand importance to me: again this home has many 'courtesy' light switches. There are multiple switches to turn ON/OFF the same light placed about home as a 'courtesy'. What I mean is, is that the likelihood of entering an area, using the light switch, exiting the area and using the SAME light switch is the most likely pattern of switch use. Many of the rooms have more than 3 such entrances/exits. and it is handy to be able to leave the switch in a known pattern. During the day, it is somehow pleasing to look about and see that all the light switches are in the OFF possitions, and all the little mounting screws are in the 12-6 position to add a touch of neatness and professionalism to the installation. [the screws were all placed in the identical positions by the original contractor, which I interpret as a sign of quality workmanship and attention to details]



As far as looking at the light to see if it is ON, yes, one can see the light is ON, but late at night in the attempt to turn that light OFF, I don't want to turn ON the major overhead lights, or one of the bedroom reading lights, or the ?? light as I fumble about at night trying to remember which switch will turn OFF the light [albeit I had just turned the light ON minutes before], which, yes, I can clearly see is now ON.



And again, that works assuming the other switches that
control that light are in the down position, or one
of the other possible combinations.




Maybe a better explanation is that, when in a hurry, when entering a room light switch panels have one order of control, but when exiting the room the order is reversed. Yes, I knnow that left is still left and right is still right, but that requres one to 'stop' and face the panel set, and 'think' about it. That's what I want to avoid. I want the simple menomic of a switch UP is ON and a swtich DOWN is OFF, then there is NO thinking, simply hit the switch when going by.



It's when you male statements like the last sentence above that we seem
to be heading back to square one. It works only if the other switches
are in the right position.





I understand that in smaller homes with 'tubular' hallways that have single switches in each panel that arbitrary positions of the switches are indeed a 'no never mind'


It's that way in all homes. In fact, the larger the home the more
switches you have on an n-way, the more any or all of the
switches could be in any position.

In a previous post you said that the electrician didn't pay
any attention to which way the switches were oriented to
one another. I'll bet you can't find an electrician that
paid any attention, because of the reasons already discussed.

On 6/27/2013 10:03 AM, Robert Macy wrote:
....

Maybe a better explanation is that, when in a hurry, when entering a
room light switch panels have one order of control, but when exiting the
room the order is reversed. Yes, I knnow that left is still left and
right is still right, but that requres one to 'stop' and face the panel
set, and 'think' about it. That's what I want to avoid. I want the
simple m[n]enomic of a switch UP is ON and a swtich DOWN is OFF, then there
is NO thinking, simply hit the switch when going by.
....

Can no be done other than by other logic (positions, that is) as has
been beat to death by now.

IMO the thing to do is to have the positions from left to right in the
gang switch boxes make physical sense as from "inside-out" be associated
from near-to-far (or vice versa, your choice, but to me it makes more
sense for the closer to be the outer simply because that's the way Dad
did it for the ones here so it's what I grew up with but either works
you just need to be consistent and learn the pattern) at each doorway.
Then, w/ time you should learn innately which is what and the thinking
part goes away.

--

On Thursday, June 27, 2013 12:44:40 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 6/27/2013 10:03 AM, Robert Macy wrote:

...



Maybe a better explanation is that, when in a hurry, when entering a

room light switch panels have one order of control, but when exiting the

room the order is reversed. Yes, I knnow that left is still left and

right is still right, but that requres one to 'stop' and face the panel

set, and 'think' about it. That's what I want to avoid. I want the

simple m[n]enomic of a switch UP is ON and a swtich DOWN is OFF, then there

is NO thinking, simply hit the switch when going by.

...



Can no be done other than by other logic (positions, that is) as has

been beat to death by now.



IMO the thing to do is to have the positions from left to right in the

gang switch boxes make physical sense as from "inside-out" be associated

from near-to-far (or vice versa, your choice, but to me it makes more

sense for the closer to be the outer simply because that's the way Dad

did it for the ones here so it's what I grew up with but either works

you just need to be consistent and learn the pattern) at each doorway.

Then, w/ time you should learn innately which is what and the thinking

part goes away.



--

+1

That's how I do it too. And it that regard, it would
be nice if electricians put them in that way to begin
with. A classic example is I have two switches here in
one spot. One controls the lights on the front porch. The other controls a ceiling light near the closet by the front door. I would have put them in so that the
switch for the porch light is closest to the front of
the house. It's the opposite. I was too lazy to move
it, but I know there are two such instances in the house
where they are like this, ie the opposite of what you
would expect. I have no problem identifying what switch
works what.

Robert Macy wrote in
:
[snip]
To better understand importance to me:[...]During the day, it is
somehow pleasing to look about and see that all the light
switches are in the OFF possitions, and all the little mounting
screws are in the 12-6 position to add a touch of neatness and
professionalism to the installation.

And here, I think, we finally have the *real* issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessi...ality_disorder

In article ,
Doug Miller wrote:

Robert Macy wrote in
:
[snip]
To better understand importance to me:[...]During the day, it is
somehow pleasing to look about and see that all the light
switches are in the OFF possitions, and all the little mounting
screws are in the 12-6 position to add a touch of neatness and
professionalism to the installation.

And here, I think, we finally have the *real* issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessi...ality_disorder

Personally, I do not think it is a disorder! However, there may be
times when it could pose a problem.

Back in the 60s, I worked for a company that sold equipment to the
military for use in Viet Nam. They had a rash of problems in the field
with new equipment that had worked perfectly at final test. The
equipment would be returned, re-aligned, and then be defective again
when received back in the field. They finally traced the problem to a
mechanical inspector who lined up all the screw slots before it was
packed for shipment.

My stairway has three-way switches at the top and bottom, set so the
light is on when both switches are in the same position. I'm the only
one here, and always use the light when using the stairs. The switch
where I'm at is always up-for-on/down-for-off.

Fred

Sorry Fred, but if you flip the other switch, you'll find that the switch where you're at is always up-for-off/down-for-on.

That's just the nature of 3-way switches.

On Thursday, June 27, 2013 9:58:34 AM UTC-7, Doug Miller wrote:
Robert Macy wrote in
[snip]
To better understand importance to me:[...]During the day, it is
somehow pleasing to look about and see that all the light
switches are in the OFF possitions, and all the little mounting
screws are in the 12-6 position to add a touch of neatness and
professionalism to the installation.

And here, I think, we finally have the *real* issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessi...ality_disorder

I should have remembered the old rule, never complain, never explain.

Yes, I was wrong for even thinking about trying to change my light switches.. After all, it's always better to live in this world by accepting everything presented. Instead of flailing at the impossible, it is always better to change one's own attitude towards the situation.

Wait, this wasn't 'impossible'! As a matter of fact, I now have not only what I wanted all along but additionally have some insights into light switch controllers not even thought of before, thanks to the many excellent contributions.

My 'problem' was solved *and* my horizons expanded. Talk about win, win. Well, almost, feathers slightly ruffled by the chidings, but small price to pay, eh?

Next time, I won't explain 'why' I want to tar the drywall in my living room.

On 6/27/2013 9:03 AM, Robert Macy wrote:

To better understand importance to me: again this home has many
'courtesy' light switches. There are multiple switches to turn ON/OFF
the same light placed about home as a 'courtesy'. What I mean is, is
that the likelihood of entering an area, using the light switch,
exiting the area and using the SAME light switch is the most likely
pattern of switch use. Many of the rooms have more than 3 such
entrances/exits. and it is handy to be able to leave the switch in a
known pattern. During the day, it is somehow pleasing to look about
and see that all the light switches are in the OFF possitions,

So a few times a day go through the house and turn all the switches
down. If a light is on turn one of the controlling switches upside down
(only has to be done once).

If you want to know if the lights are on or off replace the switches
with switches that have pilot lights in the handle.

andall the little mounting screws are in the 12-6 position to add a
touch of neatness and professionalism to the installation. [the screws
were all placed in the identical positions by the original contractor,
which I interpret as a sign of quality workmanship and attention to details]

I certainly wouldn't interpret that as a sign of quality workmanship -
may or may not be.

Yet one more good reason for Americans to finally recognize the inherent superiority of the Robertson drive screw.



The Robertson drive has FOUR identical screw head positions with each screw rotation, thereby doubling your chances of achieving perfect screw head alignment amongst multiple screws.

A USA friendly version of 4 way switching:

http://www.howtowirealightswitch.com...-light-switch/