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Default Wiring for multiple control [4 switches control one set of lights]light switch !!!

Ok Ok I know this is simple but it's irritating me beyond belief.

Leviton light switches.

In a dual box next to an outside door there are two light switches.
One is the single control for a porch light, the other is a one of
four switches that turn on/off the hall way lights.

Of course the installer put the hallway light switch adjacent to the
door opening and the porch light switch way on the inside. Plus, paid
no attention to having all of the individual multiple switches end up
in any proper position when the hallway light is off, so want to
change. Swapping these two switches in their physical location in the
box is no problem the wiring appears to be long enough, although the
cabling comes down through the inlet holes in the wrong places. but
still reaches.

Big problem is the best way to change the switching action of the
multiple control switch. Went to google, not much help there. as
usual. Did find that 4 wire means 3 switches, not four. and nothing
for 5-wire and found an interesting description of how a 'control'
switch is in the box that supplies wiring up to the fixture. That may
be this box, but doubt it, because this switch has four leads.

However *if* this is the cable that goes up to the light fixtures; why
there would be a RED and a BLACK going to the fixtures when all I need
is the BLACK power going up there. So, thought I'd ask.

Ignoring GND wiring that's all done correctly. There is a cable with
RED, BLACK, and WHITE, call it CABLE A. Another cable, call it CABLE B
has RED, BLACK, and WHITE. As expected the WHITE is simply bypassing
everything with a wire nut. BLACK A goes to IN at the top of the
switch. BLACK B goes to OUT at the top of the switch. RED A goes to IN
close to bottom of switch and RED B goes to OUT close to bottom of
switch.

What is the best way to rewire the switch to get the inverse from what
it is now and the 'proper' position?



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Default Wiring for multiple control [4 switches control one set of lights] light switch !!!

On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 18:56:00 -0700 (PDT), Robert Macy
wrote:

Ok Ok I know this is simple but it's irritating me beyond belief.

Leviton light switches.

In a dual box next to an outside door there are two light switches.
One is the single control for a porch light, the other is a one of
four switches that turn on/off the hall way lights.

Of course the installer put the hallway light switch adjacent to the
door opening and the porch light switch way on the inside. Plus, paid
no attention to having all of the individual multiple switches end up
in any proper position when the hallway light is off, so want to
change. Swapping these two switches in their physical location in the
box is no problem the wiring appears to be long enough, although the
cabling comes down through the inlet holes in the wrong places. but
still reaches.

Big problem is the best way to change the switching action of the
multiple control switch. Went to google, not much help there. as
usual. Did find that 4 wire means 3 switches, not four. and nothing
for 5-wire and found an interesting description of how a 'control'
switch is in the box that supplies wiring up to the fixture. That may
be this box, but doubt it, because this switch has four leads.

However *if* this is the cable that goes up to the light fixtures; why
there would be a RED and a BLACK going to the fixtures when all I need
is the BLACK power going up there. So, thought I'd ask.

Ignoring GND wiring that's all done correctly. There is a cable with
RED, BLACK, and WHITE, call it CABLE A. Another cable, call it CABLE B
has RED, BLACK, and WHITE. As expected the WHITE is simply bypassing
everything with a wire nut. BLACK A goes to IN at the top of the
switch. BLACK B goes to OUT at the top of the switch. RED A goes to IN
close to bottom of switch and RED B goes to OUT close to bottom of
switch.

What is the best way to rewire the switch to get the inverse from what
it is now and the 'proper' position?

Before you do anything, take pictures of how it is now.

If what you have is 3 way or 4 way switches, sometimes the switch will
be up when the light is off. I think that is what you are asking.
Sorry I quit reading about half way down.

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Default Wiring for multiple control [4 switches control one set oflights] light switch !!!

On Jun 17, 9:08*pm, Metspitzer wrote:
On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 18:56:00 -0700 (PDT), Robert Macy





wrote:
Ok Ok I know this is simple but it's irritating me beyond belief.


Leviton light switches.


In a dual box next to an outside door there are two light switches.
One is the single control for a porch light, the other is a one of
four switches that turn on/off the hall way lights.


Of course the installer put the hallway light switch adjacent to the
door opening and the porch light switch way on the inside. Plus, paid
no attention to having all of the individual multiple switches end up
in any proper position when the hallway light is off, so want to
change. *Swapping these two switches in their physical location in the
box is no problem the wiring appears to be long enough, although the
cabling comes down through the inlet holes in the wrong places. but
still reaches.


Big problem is the best way to change the switching action of the
multiple control switch. Went to google, not much help there. as
usual. *Did find that 4 wire means 3 switches, not four. and nothing
for 5-wire and found an interesting description of how a 'control'
switch is in the box that supplies wiring up to the fixture. That may
be this box, but doubt it, because this switch has four leads.


However *if* this is the cable that goes up to the light fixtures; why
there would be a RED and a BLACK going to the fixtures when all I need
is the BLACK power going up there. *So, thought I'd ask.


Ignoring GND wiring that's all done correctly. There is a cable with
RED, BLACK, and WHITE, call it CABLE A. Another cable, call it CABLE B
has RED, BLACK, and WHITE. As expected the WHITE is simply bypassing
everything with a wire nut. BLACK A goes to IN at the top of the
switch. BLACK B goes to OUT at the top of the switch. RED A goes to IN
close to bottom of switch and RED B goes to OUT close to bottom of
switch.


What is the best way to rewire the switch to get the inverse from what
it is now and the 'proper' position?


Before you do anything, take pictures of how it is now.

If what you have is 3 way or 4 way switches, sometimes the switch will
be up when the light is off. *I think that is what you are asking.
Sorry I quit reading about half way down.- Hide quoted text -


Agreed. you can start by having the light off when all the switches
are down, but as soon as one switch is up to light the light, another
switch will have to go up to turn the light off. Now you will have
two switches down and two switches up, and the light will be off. Now
you will have to turn one up switch down or one down switch up to turn
the light back on. So can't dp what you seem to want to do - sorrry.
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Default Wiring for multiple control [4 switches control one set oflights] light switch !!!

On Jun 17, 10:27*pm, "
wrote:
On Jun 17, 9:08*pm, Metspitzer wrote:





On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 18:56:00 -0700 (PDT), Robert Macy


wrote:
Ok Ok I know this is simple but it's irritating me beyond belief.


Leviton light switches.


In a dual box next to an outside door there are two light switches.
One is the single control for a porch light, the other is a one of
four switches that turn on/off the hall way lights.


Of course the installer put the hallway light switch adjacent to the
door opening and the porch light switch way on the inside. Plus, paid
no attention to having all of the individual multiple switches end up
in any proper position when the hallway light is off, so want to
change. *Swapping these two switches in their physical location in the
box is no problem the wiring appears to be long enough, although the
cabling comes down through the inlet holes in the wrong places. but
still reaches.


Big problem is the best way to change the switching action of the
multiple control switch. Went to google, not much help there. as
usual. *Did find that 4 wire means 3 switches, not four. and nothing
for 5-wire and found an interesting description of how a 'control'
switch is in the box that supplies wiring up to the fixture. That may
be this box, but doubt it, because this switch has four leads.


However *if* this is the cable that goes up to the light fixtures; why
there would be a RED and a BLACK going to the fixtures when all I need
is the BLACK power going up there. *So, thought I'd ask.


Ignoring GND wiring that's all done correctly. There is a cable with
RED, BLACK, and WHITE, call it CABLE A. Another cable, call it CABLE B
has RED, BLACK, and WHITE. As expected the WHITE is simply bypassing
everything with a wire nut. BLACK A goes to IN at the top of the
switch. BLACK B goes to OUT at the top of the switch. RED A goes to IN
close to bottom of switch and RED B goes to OUT close to bottom of
switch.


What is the best way to rewire the switch to get the inverse from what
it is now and the 'proper' position?


Before you do anything, take pictures of how it is now.


If what you have is 3 way or 4 way switches, sometimes the switch will
be up when the light is off. *I think that is what you are asking.
Sorry I quit reading about half way down.- Hide quoted text -


Agreed. *you can start by having the light off when all the switches
are down, but as soon as one switch is up *to light the light, another
switch will have to go up to turn the light off. *Now you will have
two switches down and two switches up, and the light will be off. *Now
you will have to turn one up switch down or one down switch up to turn
the light back on. *So can't dp what you seem to want to do - sorrry.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


+1

Let's start with the simplest multiple switch system,
ie 3 way. That uses two switches. But the state of the
light and the position of the switches is not fixed. On
can be either up or down, depending on the position of
the other switch.

If you want them all to work the same way, there is
a solution. Look at Lutron Maestro series. Essentially
they are electronic dimmers. You have one master
one and up to 10 companion ones. They connect
very easily using the existing wire. They are really
cool dimmers. You can set the level you want and
when you push the switch they softly come up to
that level or softly go out. If you're leaving and want
the lights to go off in 15 secs or 2 mins, you just
push the switch like you're turning it off, but hold it.
A series of leds starts increasing, showing how
long until it turns off. When you get the amount of
time you want, you release the switch. There are also
versions with motion sensors too.

Downside is that they aren't cheap...... To do
4 you're probably looking at $125+
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Default Wiring for multiple control [4 switches control one set of lights] light switch !!!


Ok Ok I know this is simple but it's irritating me beyond belief.

Leviton light switches.

In a dual box next to an outside door there are two light switches.
One is the single control for a porch light, the other is a one of
four switches that turn on/off the hall way lights.

Of course the installer put the hallway light switch adjacent to the
door opening and the porch light switch way on the inside. Plus, paid
no attention to having all of the individual multiple switches end up
in any proper position when the hallway light is off, so want to
change. Swapping these two switches in their physical location in the
box is no problem the wiring appears to be long enough, although the
cabling comes down through the inlet holes in the wrong places. but
still reaches.

Big problem is the best way to change the switching action of the
multiple control switch. Went to google, not much help there. as
usual. Did find that 4 wire means 3 switches, not four. and nothing
for 5-wire and found an interesting description of how a 'control'
switch is in the box that supplies wiring up to the fixture. That may
be this box, but doubt it, because this switch has four leads.

However *if* this is the cable that goes up to the light fixtures; why
there would be a RED and a BLACK going to the fixtures when all I need
is the BLACK power going up there. So, thought I'd ask.

Ignoring GND wiring that's all done correctly. There is a cable with
RED, BLACK, and WHITE, call it CABLE A. Another cable, call it CABLE B
has RED, BLACK, and WHITE. As expected the WHITE is simply bypassing
everything with a wire nut. BLACK A goes to IN at the top of the
switch. BLACK B goes to OUT at the top of the switch. RED A goes to IN
close to bottom of switch and RED B goes to OUT close to bottom of
switch.

What is the best way to rewire the switch to get the inverse from what
it is now and the 'proper' position?



*You can just turn the switches upside down without changing the wiring.


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Default Wiring for multiple control [4 switches control one set of lights]light switch !!!

On 6/18/2013 4:51 AM, John Grabowski wrote:

Ok Ok I know this is simple but it's irritating me beyond belief.

Leviton light switches.

In a dual box next to an outside door there are two light switches.
One is the single control for a porch light, the other is a one of
four switches that turn on/off the hall way lights.

Of course the installer put the hallway light switch adjacent to the
door opening and the porch light switch way on the inside. Plus, paid
no attention to having all of the individual multiple switches end up
in any proper position when the hallway light is off, so want to
change. Swapping these two switches in their physical location in the
box is no problem the wiring appears to be long enough, although the
cabling comes down through the inlet holes in the wrong places. but
still reaches.

Big problem is the best way to change the switching action of the
multiple control switch. Went to google, not much help there. as
usual. Did find that 4 wire means 3 switches, not four. and nothing
for 5-wire and found an interesting description of how a 'control'
switch is in the box that supplies wiring up to the fixture. That may
be this box, but doubt it, because this switch has four leads.

However *if* this is the cable that goes up to the light fixtures; why
there would be a RED and a BLACK going to the fixtures when all I need
is the BLACK power going up there. So, thought I'd ask.

Ignoring GND wiring that's all done correctly. There is a cable with
RED, BLACK, and WHITE, call it CABLE A. Another cable, call it CABLE B
has RED, BLACK, and WHITE. As expected the WHITE is simply bypassing
everything with a wire nut. BLACK A goes to IN at the top of the
switch. BLACK B goes to OUT at the top of the switch. RED A goes to IN
close to bottom of switch and RED B goes to OUT close to bottom of
switch.

What is the best way to rewire the switch to get the inverse from what
it is now and the 'proper' position?



*You can just turn the switches upside down without changing the wiring.


The K.I.S.S. solution. I salute thee sir! ^_^

TDD
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Default Wiring for multiple control [4 switches control one set oflights] light switch !!!

On Jun 17, 7:08*pm, Metspitzer wrote:
On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 18:56:00 -0700 (PDT), Robert Macy





wrote:
Ok Ok I know this is simple but it's irritating me beyond belief.


Leviton light switches.


In a dual box next to an outside door there are two light switches.
One is the single control for a porch light, the other is a one of
four switches that turn on/off the hall way lights.


Of course the installer put the hallway light switch adjacent to the
door opening and the porch light switch way on the inside. Plus, paid
no attention to having all of the individual multiple switches end up
in any proper position when the hallway light is off, so want to
change. *Swapping these two switches in their physical location in the
box is no problem the wiring appears to be long enough, although the
cabling comes down through the inlet holes in the wrong places. but
still reaches.


Big problem is the best way to change the switching action of the
multiple control switch. Went to google, not much help there. as
usual. *Did find that 4 wire means 3 switches, not four. and nothing
for 5-wire and found an interesting description of how a 'control'
switch is in the box that supplies wiring up to the fixture. That may
be this box, but doubt it, because this switch has four leads.


However *if* this is the cable that goes up to the light fixtures; why
there would be a RED and a BLACK going to the fixtures when all I need
is the BLACK power going up there. *So, thought I'd ask.


Ignoring GND wiring that's all done correctly. There is a cable with
RED, BLACK, and WHITE, call it CABLE A. Another cable, call it CABLE B
has RED, BLACK, and WHITE. As expected the WHITE is simply bypassing
everything with a wire nut. BLACK A goes to IN at the top of the
switch. BLACK B goes to OUT at the top of the switch. RED A goes to IN
close to bottom of switch and RED B goes to OUT close to bottom of
switch.


What is the best way to rewire the switch to get the inverse from what
it is now and the 'proper' position?


Before you do anything, take pictures of how it is now.

If what you have is 3 way or 4 way switches, sometimes the switch will
be up when the light is off. *I think that is what you are asking.
Sorry I quit reading about half way down.


LOL! chloroform in print?
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Default Wiring for multiple control [4 switches control one set oflights] light switch !!!

On Jun 17, 7:27*pm, "
wrote:
On Jun 17, 9:08*pm, Metspitzer wrote:





On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 18:56:00 -0700 (PDT), Robert Macy


wrote:
Ok Ok I know this is simple but it's irritating me beyond belief.


Leviton light switches.


In a dual box next to an outside door there are two light switches.
One is the single control for a porch light, the other is a one of
four switches that turn on/off the hall way lights.


Of course the installer put the hallway light switch adjacent to the
door opening and the porch light switch way on the inside. Plus, paid
no attention to having all of the individual multiple switches end up
in any proper position when the hallway light is off, so want to
change. *Swapping these two switches in their physical location in the
box is no problem the wiring appears to be long enough, although the
cabling comes down through the inlet holes in the wrong places. but
still reaches.


Big problem is the best way to change the switching action of the
multiple control switch. Went to google, not much help there. as
usual. *Did find that 4 wire means 3 switches, not four. and nothing
for 5-wire and found an interesting description of how a 'control'
switch is in the box that supplies wiring up to the fixture. That may
be this box, but doubt it, because this switch has four leads.


However *if* this is the cable that goes up to the light fixtures; why
there would be a RED and a BLACK going to the fixtures when all I need
is the BLACK power going up there. *So, thought I'd ask.


Ignoring GND wiring that's all done correctly. There is a cable with
RED, BLACK, and WHITE, call it CABLE A. Another cable, call it CABLE B
has RED, BLACK, and WHITE. As expected the WHITE is simply bypassing
everything with a wire nut. BLACK A goes to IN at the top of the
switch. BLACK B goes to OUT at the top of the switch. RED A goes to IN
close to bottom of switch and RED B goes to OUT close to bottom of
switch.


What is the best way to rewire the switch to get the inverse from what
it is now and the 'proper' position?


Before you do anything, take pictures of how it is now.


If what you have is 3 way or 4 way switches, sometimes the switch will
be up when the light is off. *I think that is what you are asking.
Sorry I quit reading about half way down.- Hide quoted text -


Agreed. *you can start by having the light off when all the switches
are down, but as soon as one switch is up *to light the light, another
switch will have to go up to turn the light off. *Now you will have
two switches down and two switches up, and the light will be off. *Now
you will have to turn one up switch down or one down switch up to turn
the light back on. *So can't dp what you seem to want to do - sorrry.


It's a bit obsessive, but I like to be able to set ALL the switches at
some time to the 'proper' position. It's easier to tell which switch
had been turned on to control what light, especially when there are
racks of these switches EVERYWHERE!
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Default Wiring for multiple control [4 switches control one set oflights] light switch !!!

On Jun 18, 1:34*am, "
wrote:
On Jun 17, 10:27*pm, "





wrote:
On Jun 17, 9:08*pm, Metspitzer wrote:


On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 18:56:00 -0700 (PDT), Robert Macy


wrote:
Ok Ok I know this is simple but it's irritating me beyond belief.


Leviton light switches.


In a dual box next to an outside door there are two light switches.
One is the single control for a porch light, the other is a one of
four switches that turn on/off the hall way lights.


Of course the installer put the hallway light switch adjacent to the
door opening and the porch light switch way on the inside. Plus, paid
no attention to having all of the individual multiple switches end up
in any proper position when the hallway light is off, so want to
change. *Swapping these two switches in their physical location in the
box is no problem the wiring appears to be long enough, although the
cabling comes down through the inlet holes in the wrong places. but
still reaches.


Big problem is the best way to change the switching action of the
multiple control switch. Went to google, not much help there. as
usual. *Did find that 4 wire means 3 switches, not four. and nothing
for 5-wire and found an interesting description of how a 'control'
switch is in the box that supplies wiring up to the fixture. That may
be this box, but doubt it, because this switch has four leads.


However *if* this is the cable that goes up to the light fixtures; why
there would be a RED and a BLACK going to the fixtures when all I need
is the BLACK power going up there. *So, thought I'd ask.


Ignoring GND wiring that's all done correctly. There is a cable with
RED, BLACK, and WHITE, call it CABLE A. Another cable, call it CABLE B
has RED, BLACK, and WHITE. As expected the WHITE is simply bypassing
everything with a wire nut. BLACK A goes to IN at the top of the
switch. BLACK B goes to OUT at the top of the switch. RED A goes to IN
close to bottom of switch and RED B goes to OUT close to bottom of
switch.


What is the best way to rewire the switch to get the inverse from what
it is now and the 'proper' position?


Before you do anything, take pictures of how it is now.


If what you have is 3 way or 4 way switches, sometimes the switch will
be up when the light is off. *I think that is what you are asking.
Sorry I quit reading about half way down.- Hide quoted text -


Agreed. *you can start by having the light off when all the switches
are down, but as soon as one switch is up *to light the light, another
switch will have to go up to turn the light off. *Now you will have
two switches down and two switches up, and the light will be off. *Now
you will have to turn one up switch down or one down switch up to turn
the light back on. *So can't dp what you seem to want to do - sorrry.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


+1

Let's start with the simplest multiple switch system,
ie 3 way. *That uses two switches. *But the state of the
light and the position of the switches is not fixed. *On
can be either up or down, depending on the position of
the other switch.

If you want them all to work the same way, there is
a solution. *Look at Lutron Maestro series. * Essentially
they are electronic dimmers. *You have one master
one and up to 10 companion ones. * They connect
very easily using the existing wire. *They are really
cool dimmers. *You can set the level you want and
when you push the switch they softly come up to
that level or softly go out. * If you're leaving and want
the lights to go off in 15 secs or 2 mins, you just
push the switch like you're turning it off, but hold it.
A series of leds starts increasing, showing how
long until it turns off. *When you get the amount of
time you want, you release the switch. *There are also
versions with motion sensors too.

Downside is that they aren't cheap...... *To do
4 you're probably looking at $125+


Interesting. Will this brand control *any* load?
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Default Wiring for multiple control [4 switches control one set oflights] light switch !!!

On Jun 18, 2:51*am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
Ok Ok I know this is simple but it's irritating me beyond belief.


Leviton light switches.


In a dual box next to an outside door there are two light switches.
One is the single control for a porch light, the other is a one of
four switches that turn on/off the hall way lights.


Of course the installer put the hallway light switch adjacent to the
door opening and the porch light switch way on the inside. Plus, paid
no attention to having all of the individual multiple switches end up
in any proper position when the hallway light is off, so want to
change. *Swapping these two switches in their physical location in the
box is no problem the wiring appears to be long enough, although the
cabling comes down through the inlet holes in the wrong places. but
still reaches.


Big problem is the best way to change the switching action of the
multiple control switch. Went to google, not much help there. as
usual. *Did find that 4 wire means 3 switches, not four. and nothing
for 5-wire and found an interesting description of how a 'control'
switch is in the box that supplies wiring up to the fixture. That may
be this box, but doubt it, because this switch has four leads.


However *if* this is the cable that goes up to the light fixtures; why
there would be a RED and a BLACK going to the fixtures when all I need
is the BLACK power going up there. *So, thought I'd ask.


Ignoring GND wiring that's all done correctly. There is a cable with
RED, BLACK, and WHITE, call it CABLE A. Another cable, call it CABLE B
has RED, BLACK, and WHITE. As expected the WHITE is simply bypassing
everything with a wire nut. BLACK A goes to IN at the top of the
switch. BLACK B goes to OUT at the top of the switch. RED A goes to IN
close to bottom of switch and RED B goes to OUT close to bottom of
switch.


What is the best way to rewire the switch to get the inverse from what
it is now and the 'proper' position?


*You can just turn the switches upside down without changing the wiring.


no, tried that. two reasons. wiring is 14 Awg and a b**** to fuss
with, usually marginally too short, and the GND wire appears to be
oriented downward.

Unfortunately, the minute I post a question, the solution becomes
evident. After measuring the voltages on the switch as I operated
several; I found the switch is a simple X reversal. so I only had to
swap the two 'input' lines and got the effect I wanted.



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Default Wiring for multiple control [4 switches control one set oflights] light switch !!!

On Jun 18, 8:48*am, Robert Macy wrote:
On Jun 18, 1:34*am, "
wrote:





On Jun 17, 10:27*pm, "


wrote:
On Jun 17, 9:08*pm, Metspitzer wrote:


On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 18:56:00 -0700 (PDT), Robert Macy


wrote:
Ok Ok I know this is simple but it's irritating me beyond belief.


Leviton light switches.


In a dual box next to an outside door there are two light switches..
One is the single control for a porch light, the other is a one of
four switches that turn on/off the hall way lights.


Of course the installer put the hallway light switch adjacent to the
door opening and the porch light switch way on the inside. Plus, paid
no attention to having all of the individual multiple switches end up
in any proper position when the hallway light is off, so want to
change. *Swapping these two switches in their physical location in the
box is no problem the wiring appears to be long enough, although the
cabling comes down through the inlet holes in the wrong places. but
still reaches.


Big problem is the best way to change the switching action of the
multiple control switch. Went to google, not much help there. as
usual. *Did find that 4 wire means 3 switches, not four. and nothing
for 5-wire and found an interesting description of how a 'control'
switch is in the box that supplies wiring up to the fixture. That may
be this box, but doubt it, because this switch has four leads.


However *if* this is the cable that goes up to the light fixtures; why
there would be a RED and a BLACK going to the fixtures when all I need
is the BLACK power going up there. *So, thought I'd ask.


Ignoring GND wiring that's all done correctly. There is a cable with
RED, BLACK, and WHITE, call it CABLE A. Another cable, call it CABLE B
has RED, BLACK, and WHITE. As expected the WHITE is simply bypassing
everything with a wire nut. BLACK A goes to IN at the top of the
switch. BLACK B goes to OUT at the top of the switch. RED A goes to IN
close to bottom of switch and RED B goes to OUT close to bottom of
switch.


What is the best way to rewire the switch to get the inverse from what
it is now and the 'proper' position?


Before you do anything, take pictures of how it is now.


If what you have is 3 way or 4 way switches, sometimes the switch will
be up when the light is off. *I think that is what you are asking..
Sorry I quit reading about half way down.- Hide quoted text -


Agreed. *you can start by having the light off when all the switches
are down, but as soon as one switch is up *to light the light, another
switch will have to go up to turn the light off. *Now you will have
two switches down and two switches up, and the light will be off. *Now
you will have to turn one up switch down or one down switch up to turn
the light back on. *So can't dp what you seem to want to do - sorrry.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


+1


Let's start with the simplest multiple switch system,
ie 3 way. *That uses two switches. *But the state of the
light and the position of the switches is not fixed. *On
can be either up or down, depending on the position of
the other switch.


If you want them all to work the same way, there is
a solution. *Look at Lutron Maestro series. * Essentially
they are electronic dimmers. *You have one master
one and up to 10 companion ones. * They connect
very easily using the existing wire. *They are really
cool dimmers. *You can set the level you want and
when you push the switch they softly come up to
that level or softly go out. * If you're leaving and want
the lights to go off in 15 secs or 2 mins, you just
push the switch like you're turning it off, but hold it.
A series of leds starts increasing, showing how
long until it turns off. *When you get the amount of
time you want, you release the switch. *There are also
versions with motion sensors too.


Downside is that they aren't cheap...... *To do
4 you're probably looking at $125+


Interesting. Will this brand control *any* load?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


They have several different models that will work various LIGHTS,
including transformer driven ones. Being dimmers, they are targetted
to dimmable lights.

But I see in another post that you want to see the
switch position to tell if it's on or off. These use
a push paddle type of system, so there is no toggle
switch to look at. It might have an LED indicator
though that shows when it's on. Not sure about
that. Probably does though, because if you
have 6 of these Lutron dimmers it would be good to
know at each one that somebody has turned the
light on. When I'm back at the house I will check for
you.
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Default Wiring for multiple control [4 switches control one set oflights] light switch !!!

On Jun 18, 4:32*am, The Daring Dufas the-daring-du...@stinky-
finger.net wrote:
On 6/18/2013 4:51 AM, John Grabowski wrote:







Ok Ok I know this is simple but it's irritating me beyond belief.


Leviton light switches.


In a dual box next to an outside door there are two light switches.
One is the single control for a porch light, the other is a one of
four switches that turn on/off the hall way lights.


Of course the installer put the hallway light switch adjacent to the
door opening and the porch light switch way on the inside. Plus, paid
no attention to having all of the individual multiple switches end up
in any proper position when the hallway light is off, so want to
change. *Swapping these two switches in their physical location in the
box is no problem the wiring appears to be long enough, although the
cabling comes down through the inlet holes in the wrong places. but
still reaches.


Big problem is the best way to change the switching action of the
multiple control switch. Went to google, not much help there. as
usual. *Did find that 4 wire means 3 switches, not four. and nothing
for 5-wire and found an interesting description of how a 'control'
switch is in the box that supplies wiring up to the fixture. That may
be this box, but doubt it, because this switch has four leads.


However *if* this is the cable that goes up to the light fixtures; why
there would be a RED and a BLACK going to the fixtures when all I need
is the BLACK power going up there. *So, thought I'd ask.


Ignoring GND wiring that's all done correctly. There is a cable with
RED, BLACK, and WHITE, call it CABLE A. Another cable, call it CABLE B
has RED, BLACK, and WHITE. As expected the WHITE is simply bypassing
everything with a wire nut. BLACK A goes to IN at the top of the
switch. BLACK B goes to OUT at the top of the switch. RED A goes to IN
close to bottom of switch and RED B goes to OUT close to bottom of
switch.


What is the best way to rewire the switch to get the inverse from what
it is now and the 'proper' position?


*You can just turn the switches upside down without changing the wiring..


The K.I.S.S. solution. I salute thee sir! ^_^

TDD


That was my first approach, but was NOT implementable.
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Default Wiring for multiple control [4 switches control one set of lights]light switch !!!

On 6/18/2013 8:03 AM, Robert Macy wrote:
On Jun 18, 2:51 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
Ok Ok I know this is simple but it's irritating me beyond belief.


Leviton light switches.


In a dual box next to an outside door there are two light switches.
One is the single control for a porch light, the other is a one of
four switches that turn on/off the hall way lights.


Of course the installer put the hallway light switch adjacent to the
door opening and the porch light switch way on the inside. Plus, paid
no attention to having all of the individual multiple switches end up
in any proper position when the hallway light is off, so want to
change. Swapping these two switches in their physical location in the
box is no problem the wiring appears to be long enough, although the
cabling comes down through the inlet holes in the wrong places. but
still reaches.


Big problem is the best way to change the switching action of the
multiple control switch. Went to google, not much help there. as
usual. Did find that 4 wire means 3 switches, not four. and nothing
for 5-wire and found an interesting description of how a 'control'
switch is in the box that supplies wiring up to the fixture. That may
be this box, but doubt it, because this switch has four leads.


However *if* this is the cable that goes up to the light fixtures; why
there would be a RED and a BLACK going to the fixtures when all I need
is the BLACK power going up there. So, thought I'd ask.


Ignoring GND wiring that's all done correctly. There is a cable with
RED, BLACK, and WHITE, call it CABLE A. Another cable, call it CABLE B
has RED, BLACK, and WHITE. As expected the WHITE is simply bypassing
everything with a wire nut. BLACK A goes to IN at the top of the
switch. BLACK B goes to OUT at the top of the switch. RED A goes to IN
close to bottom of switch and RED B goes to OUT close to bottom of
switch.


What is the best way to rewire the switch to get the inverse from what
it is now and the 'proper' position?


*You can just turn the switches upside down without changing the wiring.


no, tried that. two reasons. wiring is 14 Awg and a b**** to fuss
with, usually marginally too short, and the GND wire appears to be
oriented downward.

Unfortunately, the minute I post a question, the solution becomes
evident. After measuring the voltages on the switch as I operated
several; I found the switch is a simple X reversal. so I only had to
swap the two 'input' lines and got the effect I wanted.


The pair that connects the 3way and 4way switches in series are called
"travelers" and you can install an unlimited number of 4way switches on
the pair. When I worked on a Core of Engineers job some years ago, I had
to explain and illustrate the operation of 3 and 4way switches to my
electrical foreman and superintendent because they were mystified by
their operation. So don't feel bad if you had a problem with them. ^_^

TDD
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Default Wiring for multiple control [4 switches control one set oflights] light switch !!!

On Jun 18, 9:32*am, The Daring Dufas the-daring-du...@stinky-
finger.net wrote:
On 6/18/2013 8:03 AM, Robert Macy wrote:





On Jun 18, 2:51 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
Ok Ok I know this is simple but it's irritating me beyond belief.


Leviton light switches.


In a dual box next to an outside door there are two light switches.
One is the single control for a porch light, the other is a one of
four switches that turn on/off the hall way lights.


Of course the installer put the hallway light switch adjacent to the
door opening and the porch light switch way on the inside. Plus, paid
no attention to having all of the individual multiple switches end up
in any proper position when the hallway light is off, so want to
change. *Swapping these two switches in their physical location in the
box is no problem the wiring appears to be long enough, although the
cabling comes down through the inlet holes in the wrong places. but
still reaches.


Big problem is the best way to change the switching action of the
multiple control switch. Went to google, not much help there. as
usual. *Did find that 4 wire means 3 switches, not four. and nothing
for 5-wire and found an interesting description of how a 'control'
switch is in the box that supplies wiring up to the fixture. That may
be this box, but doubt it, because this switch has four leads.


However *if* this is the cable that goes up to the light fixtures; why
there would be a RED and a BLACK going to the fixtures when all I need
is the BLACK power going up there. *So, thought I'd ask.


Ignoring GND wiring that's all done correctly. There is a cable with
RED, BLACK, and WHITE, call it CABLE A. Another cable, call it CABLE B
has RED, BLACK, and WHITE. As expected the WHITE is simply bypassing
everything with a wire nut. BLACK A goes to IN at the top of the
switch. BLACK B goes to OUT at the top of the switch. RED A goes to IN
close to bottom of switch and RED B goes to OUT close to bottom of
switch.


What is the best way to rewire the switch to get the inverse from what
it is now and the 'proper' position?


*You can just turn the switches upside down without changing the wiring.


no, tried that. two reasons. wiring is 14 Awg and a b**** to fuss
with, usually marginally too short, and the GND wire appears to be
oriented downward.


Unfortunately, the minute I post a question, the solution becomes
evident. After measuring the voltages on the switch as I operated
several; I found the switch is a simple X reversal. so I only had to
swap the two 'input' lines and got the effect I wanted.


The pair that connects the 3way and 4way switches in series are called
"travelers" and you can install an unlimited number of 4way switches on
the pair. When I worked on a Core of Engineers job some years ago, I had
to explain and illustrate the operation of 3 and 4way switches to my
electrical foreman and superintendent because they were mystified by
their operation. So don't feel bad if you had a problem with them. ^_^

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Maybe you could explain what the issue is that Robert
seems to be having? I don't get it. He seems to be
saying that he wants up to be on and down to be off,
or vice-versa, for at least some of the switches. From my
experience with 3 way and 4 way, that isn't possible.
The switch position for on depends on the position of
the other switch or switches.
Does something change when you get to 5 way, or is he
tilting at windmills? Even more mysterious, in his
recent post he says he rewired it and solved the issue?
My guess is that to achieve what he wants is impossilbe
with conventional toggle switches. Or else I'm not
understanding the issue.
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Default Wiring for multiple control [4 switches control one set oflights] light switch !!!

On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 9:45:48 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Jun 18, 9:32*am, The Daring Dufas the-daring-du...@stinky-

finger.net wrote:

On 6/18/2013 8:03 AM, Robert Macy wrote:












On Jun 18, 2:51 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:


Ok Ok I know this is simple but it's irritating me beyond belief.




Leviton light switches.




In a dual box next to an outside door there are two light switches.


One is the single control for a porch light, the other is a one of


four switches that turn on/off the hall way lights.




Of course the installer put the hallway light switch adjacent to the


door opening and the porch light switch way on the inside. Plus, paid


no attention to having all of the individual multiple switches end up


in any proper position when the hallway light is off, so want to


change. *Swapping these two switches in their physical location in the


box is no problem the wiring appears to be long enough, although the


cabling comes down through the inlet holes in the wrong places. but


still reaches.




Big problem is the best way to change the switching action of the


multiple control switch. Went to google, not much help there. as


usual. *Did find that 4 wire means 3 switches, not four. and nothing


for 5-wire and found an interesting description of how a 'control'


switch is in the box that supplies wiring up to the fixture. That may


be this box, but doubt it, because this switch has four leads.




However *if* this is the cable that goes up to the light fixtures; why


there would be a RED and a BLACK going to the fixtures when all I need


is the BLACK power going up there. *So, thought I'd ask.




Ignoring GND wiring that's all done correctly. There is a cable with


RED, BLACK, and WHITE, call it CABLE A. Another cable, call it CABLE B


has RED, BLACK, and WHITE. As expected the WHITE is simply bypassing


everything with a wire nut. BLACK A goes to IN at the top of the


switch. BLACK B goes to OUT at the top of the switch. RED A goes to IN


close to bottom of switch and RED B goes to OUT close to bottom of


switch.




What is the best way to rewire the switch to get the inverse from what


it is now and the 'proper' position?




*You can just turn the switches upside down without changing the wiring.




no, tried that. two reasons. wiring is 14 Awg and a b**** to fuss


with, usually marginally too short, and the GND wire appears to be


oriented downward.




Unfortunately, the minute I post a question, the solution becomes


evident. After measuring the voltages on the switch as I operated


several; I found the switch is a simple X reversal. so I only had to


swap the two 'input' lines and got the effect I wanted.




The pair that connects the 3way and 4way switches in series are called


"travelers" and you can install an unlimited number of 4way switches on


the pair. When I worked on a Core of Engineers job some years ago, I had


to explain and illustrate the operation of 3 and 4way switches to my


electrical foreman and superintendent because they were mystified by


their operation. So don't feel bad if you had a problem with them. ^_^




TDD- Hide quoted text -




- Show quoted text -




Maybe you could explain what the issue is that Robert

seems to be having? I don't get it. He seems to be

saying that he wants up to be on and down to be off,

or vice-versa, for at least some of the switches. From my

experience with 3 way and 4 way, that isn't possible.

The switch position for on depends on the position of

the other switch or switches.

Does something change when you get to 5 way, or is he

tilting at windmills? Even more mysterious, in his

recent post he says he rewired it and solved the issue?

My guess is that to achieve what he wants is impossilbe

with conventional toggle switches. Or else I'm not

understanding the issue.


I believe he wants the lights to be off when all the switches are in the down position. Normally can be downe by just removing the switch and turning it 180deg and putting it back in the box. But it sounds like his wires are a bit short for that.

Frankly there is not much point to it anyway as the whole reason you have multiple switches is so you can turn the lights on or off from any of the locations. You enter the hall at one end in the dark so you turn the light on. When you exit the other end you turn the light off. Now you have two switches in the up position but the lights are off.


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Default Wiring for multiple control [4 switches control one set oflights] light switch !!!

On Jun 18, 9:58*am, jamesgang wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 9:45:48 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Jun 18, 9:32*am, The Daring Dufas the-daring-du...@stinky-


finger.net wrote:


On 6/18/2013 8:03 AM, Robert Macy wrote:


On Jun 18, 2:51 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:


Ok Ok I know this is simple but it's irritating me beyond belief.


Leviton light switches.


In a dual box next to an outside door there are two light switches.


One is the single control for a porch light, the other is a one of


four switches that turn on/off the hall way lights.


Of course the installer put the hallway light switch adjacent to the


door opening and the porch light switch way on the inside. Plus, paid


no attention to having all of the individual multiple switches end up


in any proper position when the hallway light is off, so want to


change. *Swapping these two switches in their physical location in the


box is no problem the wiring appears to be long enough, although the


cabling comes down through the inlet holes in the wrong places. but


still reaches.


Big problem is the best way to change the switching action of the


multiple control switch. Went to google, not much help there. as


usual. *Did find that 4 wire means 3 switches, not four. and nothing


for 5-wire and found an interesting description of how a 'control'


switch is in the box that supplies wiring up to the fixture. That may


be this box, but doubt it, because this switch has four leads.


However *if* this is the cable that goes up to the light fixtures; why


there would be a RED and a BLACK going to the fixtures when all I need


is the BLACK power going up there. *So, thought I'd ask.


Ignoring GND wiring that's all done correctly. There is a cable with


RED, BLACK, and WHITE, call it CABLE A. Another cable, call it CABLE B


has RED, BLACK, and WHITE. As expected the WHITE is simply bypassing


everything with a wire nut. BLACK A goes to IN at the top of the


switch. BLACK B goes to OUT at the top of the switch. RED A goes to IN


close to bottom of switch and RED B goes to OUT close to bottom of


switch.


What is the best way to rewire the switch to get the inverse from what


it is now and the 'proper' position?


*You can just turn the switches upside down without changing the wiring.


no, tried that. two reasons. wiring is 14 Awg and a b**** to fuss


with, usually marginally too short, and the GND wire appears to be


oriented downward.


Unfortunately, the minute I post a question, the solution becomes


evident. After measuring the voltages on the switch as I operated


several; I found the switch is a simple X reversal. so I only had to


swap the two 'input' lines and got the effect I wanted.


The pair that connects the 3way and 4way switches in series are called


"travelers" and you can install an unlimited number of 4way switches on


the pair. When I worked on a Core of Engineers job some years ago, I had


to explain and illustrate the operation of 3 and 4way switches to my


electrical foreman and superintendent because they were mystified by


their operation. So don't feel bad if you had a problem with them. ^_^


TDD- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Maybe you could explain what the issue is that Robert


seems to be having? * I don't get it. *He seems to be


saying that he wants up to be on and down to be off,


or vice-versa, for at least some of the switches. *From my


experience with 3 way and 4 way, that isn't possible.


The switch position for on depends on the position of


the other switch or switches.


Does something change when you get to 5 way, or is he


tilting at windmills? * Even more mysterious, in his


recent post he says he rewired it and solved the issue?


My guess is that to achieve what he wants is impossilbe


with conventional toggle switches. Or else I'm not


understanding the issue.


I believe he wants the lights to be off when all the switches are in the down position. *Normally can be downe by just removing the switch and turning it 180deg and putting it back in the box. *But it sounds like his wires are a bit short for that.

Frankly there is not much point to it anyway as the whole reason you have multiple switches is so you can turn the lights on or off from any of the locations. *You enter the hall at one end in the dark so you turn the light on. *When you exit the other end you turn the light off. *Now you have two switches in the up position but the lights are off.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I agree completely with the last part of what you said.
So, I still don't understand the talk about re-wiring,
turning switches upside down, etc. I think we agree it
would only "fix" the problem until another switch position
was changed.
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Default

Robert:

I'm thinking that your best bet might be to simply replace your 4 way switches with ones that have either lighted toggles or toggles of a different colour than the rest of the switches in each "bank" of switches. That will at least set them apart visually, so you're brain recognizes that those switches are different, and the toggle being in the up position doesn't mean that anything is "ON".

I'm not familiar with 4 way switches, but with 3 way switches there really is no "OFF" position like you have with ordinary switches. With 3 way switches, you have two different "ON" positions where the switch sends power down one conductor or another depending on the toggle position, but no "OFF" position. But, in that case, toggle down doesn't mean the light is off since whether or not electricity flows depends on the position of BOTH three way switches, not just the position of one three way switch.
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Default Wiring for multiple control [4 switches control one set of lights]light switch !!!

On 6/18/2013 7:03 AM, wrote:

But I see in another post that you want to see the
switch position to tell if it's on or off. These use
a push paddle type of system, so there is no toggle
switch to look at. It might have an LED indicator
though that shows when it's on. Not sure about
that. Probably does though, because if you
have 6 of these Lutron dimmers it would be good to
know at each one that somebody has turned the
light on. When I'm back at the house I will check for
you.


Along the lines of "LED indicator", I believe an old thread had a 3-way
switch with a pilot light. There was a resistor from each traveler to a
common point, with the pilot light from the common point to the neutral.
The common point would be 120V with the lights off and 60V with lights
(incandescent) on. Could do the same thing with a 4-way, and the
manufacturer probably did. (Switch lights up with the lights off.)

Can't do what the OP wants - multiple control positions with switch that
turned the light on in the up position. Actually you could by wiring all
single pole switches in parallel and the switch(es) that are 'up' turned
the light on, but not a useful solution.

Closest may center off, momentary contact up and down switches, as in
your post, where you don't have 'chaotic' random up and down switch
positions.

Lots of descriptions of 3-way, 4-way switches on the internet which the
OP should look at if he hasn't figured out how his switches work.
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Default Wiring for multiple control [4 switches control one set oflights] light switch !!!

On Jun 18, 2:58*pm, jamesgang wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 9:45:48 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Jun 18, 9:32*am, The Daring Dufas the-daring-du...@stinky-


finger.net wrote:


On 6/18/2013 8:03 AM, Robert Macy wrote:


On Jun 18, 2:51 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:


Ok Ok I know this is simple but it's irritating me beyond belief.


Leviton light switches.


In a dual box next to an outside door there are two light switches.


One is the single control for a porch light, the other is a one of


four switches that turn on/off the hall way lights.


Of course the installer put the hallway light switch adjacent to the


door opening and the porch light switch way on the inside. Plus, paid


no attention to having all of the individual multiple switches end up


in any proper position when the hallway light is off, so want to


change. *Swapping these two switches in their physical location in the


box is no problem the wiring appears to be long enough, although the


cabling comes down through the inlet holes in the wrong places. but


still reaches.


Big problem is the best way to change the switching action of the


multiple control switch. Went to google, not much help there. as


usual. *Did find that 4 wire means 3 switches, not four. and nothing


for 5-wire and found an interesting description of how a 'control'


switch is in the box that supplies wiring up to the fixture. That may


be this box, but doubt it, because this switch has four leads.


However *if* this is the cable that goes up to the light fixtures; why


there would be a RED and a BLACK going to the fixtures when all I need


is the BLACK power going up there. *So, thought I'd ask.


Ignoring GND wiring that's all done correctly. There is a cable with


RED, BLACK, and WHITE, call it CABLE A. Another cable, call it CABLE B


has RED, BLACK, and WHITE. As expected the WHITE is simply bypassing


everything with a wire nut. BLACK A goes to IN at the top of the


switch. BLACK B goes to OUT at the top of the switch. RED A goes to IN


close to bottom of switch and RED B goes to OUT close to bottom of


switch.


What is the best way to rewire the switch to get the inverse from what


it is now and the 'proper' position?


*You can just turn the switches upside down without changing the wiring.


no, tried that. two reasons. wiring is 14 Awg and a b**** to fuss


with, usually marginally too short, and the GND wire appears to be


oriented downward.


Unfortunately, the minute I post a question, the solution becomes


evident. After measuring the voltages on the switch as I operated


several; I found the switch is a simple X reversal. so I only had to


swap the two 'input' lines and got the effect I wanted.


The pair that connects the 3way and 4way switches in series are called


"travelers" and you can install an unlimited number of 4way switches on


the pair. When I worked on a Core of Engineers job some years ago, I had


to explain and illustrate the operation of 3 and 4way switches to my


electrical foreman and superintendent because they were mystified by


their operation. So don't feel bad if you had a problem with them. ^_^


TDD- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Maybe you could explain what the issue is that Robert


seems to be having? * I don't get it. *He seems to be


saying that he wants up to be on and down to be off,


or vice-versa, for at least some of the switches. *From my


experience with 3 way and 4 way, that isn't possible.


The switch position for on depends on the position of


the other switch or switches.


Does something change when you get to 5 way, or is he


tilting at windmills? * Even more mysterious, in his


recent post he says he rewired it and solved the issue?


My guess is that to achieve what he wants is impossilbe


with conventional toggle switches. Or else I'm not


understanding the issue.


I believe he wants the lights to be off when all the switches are in the down position. *Normally can be downe by just removing the switch and turning it 180deg and putting it back in the box. *But it sounds like his wires are a bit short for that.

Frankly there is not much point to it anyway as the whole reason you have multiple switches is so you can turn the lights on or off from any of the locations. *You enter the hall at one end in the dark so you turn the light on. *When you exit the other end you turn the light off. *Now you have two switches in the up position but the lights are off.


Even if he starts off with all the switched "aligned", operating any
two switches will put you back to square one but with the switches now
misaligned, so pointless pursuit even trying.
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Default Wiring for multiple control [4 switches control one set oflights] light switch !!!

On Jun 18, 4:03*pm, bud-- wrote:
On 6/18/2013 7:03 AM, wrote:



But I see in another post that you want to see the
switch position to tell if it's on or off. *These use
a push paddle type of system, so there is no toggle
switch to look at. * It might have an LED indicator
though that shows when it's on. * Not sure about
that. Probably does though, because if you
have 6 of these Lutron dimmers it would be good to
know at each one that somebody has turned the
light on. *When I'm back at the house I will check for
you.


Along the lines of "LED indicator", I believe an old thread had a 3-way
switch with a pilot light. There was a resistor from each traveler to a
common point, with the pilot light from the common point to the neutral.
The common point would be 120V with the lights off and 60V with lights
(incandescent) on. Could do the same thing with a 4-way, and the
manufacturer probably did. (Switch lights up with the lights off.)

Can't do what the OP wants - multiple control positions with switch that
turned the light on in the up position. Actually you could by wiring all
single pole switches in parallel and the switch(es) that are 'up' turned
the light on, but not a useful solution.

Closest may center off, momentary contact up and down switches, as in
your post, where you don't have 'chaotic' random up and down switch
positions.

Lots of descriptions of 3-way, 4-way switches on the internet which the
OP should look at if he hasn't figured out how his switches work.


The only way it can be done is to control the light with a device
similar to a motor starter with multiple start/stop buttons.


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On Jun 18, 4:33*pm, nestork wrote:
Robert:

I'm thinking that your best bet might be to simply replace your 4 way
switches with ones that have either lighted toggles or toggles of a
different colour than the rest of the switches in each "bank" of
switches. *That will at least set them apart visually, so you're brain
recognizes that those switches are different, and the toggle being in
the up position doesn't mean that anything is "ON".

I'm not familiar with 4 way switches, but with 3 way switches there
really is no "OFF" position like you have with ordinary switches. *With
3 way switches, you have two different "ON" positions where the switch
sends power down one conductor or another depending on the toggle
position, but no "OFF" position. *But, in that case, toggle down doesn't
mean the light is off since whether or not electricity flows depends on
the position of BOTH three way switches, not just the position of one
three way switch.

--
nestork


This is how they are wired. Beware, different terminology to USA.

http://www.lightwiring.co.uk/tag/int...switch-wiring/
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On Jun 18, 1:46*pm, Robert Macy wrote:
On Jun 17, 7:27*pm, "









wrote:
On Jun 17, 9:08*pm, Metspitzer wrote:


On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 18:56:00 -0700 (PDT), Robert Macy


wrote:
Ok Ok I know this is simple but it's irritating me beyond belief.


Leviton light switches.


In a dual box next to an outside door there are two light switches.
One is the single control for a porch light, the other is a one of
four switches that turn on/off the hall way lights.


Of course the installer put the hallway light switch adjacent to the
door opening and the porch light switch way on the inside. Plus, paid
no attention to having all of the individual multiple switches end up
in any proper position when the hallway light is off, so want to
change. *Swapping these two switches in their physical location in the
box is no problem the wiring appears to be long enough, although the
cabling comes down through the inlet holes in the wrong places. but
still reaches.


Big problem is the best way to change the switching action of the
multiple control switch. Went to google, not much help there. as
usual. *Did find that 4 wire means 3 switches, not four. and nothing
for 5-wire and found an interesting description of how a 'control'
switch is in the box that supplies wiring up to the fixture. That may
be this box, but doubt it, because this switch has four leads.


However *if* this is the cable that goes up to the light fixtures; why
there would be a RED and a BLACK going to the fixtures when all I need
is the BLACK power going up there. *So, thought I'd ask.


Ignoring GND wiring that's all done correctly. There is a cable with
RED, BLACK, and WHITE, call it CABLE A. Another cable, call it CABLE B
has RED, BLACK, and WHITE. As expected the WHITE is simply bypassing
everything with a wire nut. BLACK A goes to IN at the top of the
switch. BLACK B goes to OUT at the top of the switch. RED A goes to IN
close to bottom of switch and RED B goes to OUT close to bottom of
switch.


What is the best way to rewire the switch to get the inverse from what
it is now and the 'proper' position?


Before you do anything, take pictures of how it is now.


If what you have is 3 way or 4 way switches, sometimes the switch will
be up when the light is off. *I think that is what you are asking.
Sorry I quit reading about half way down.- Hide quoted text -


Agreed. *you can start by having the light off when all the switches
are down, but as soon as one switch is up *to light the light, another
switch will have to go up to turn the light off. *Now you will have
two switches down and two switches up, and the light will be off. *Now
you will have to turn one up switch down or one down switch up to turn
the light back on. *So can't dp what you seem to want to do - sorrry.


It's a bit obsessive, but I like to be able to set ALL the switches at
some time to the 'proper' position. It's easier to tell which switch
had been turned on to control what light, especially when there are
racks of these switches EVERYWHERE!


It's not possible with the conventional method of having more then two
switches. Even with just two switches it's possible to have the light
on with both switches up or down

I know how it all works but I don't know the terminology used in the
US.
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On 6/18/2013 10:33 AM, nestork wrote:

Robert:

I'm thinking that your best bet might be to simply replace your 4 way
switches with ones that have either lighted toggles or toggles of a
different colour than the rest of the switches in each "bank" of
switches. That will at least set them apart visually, so you're brain
recognizes that those switches are different, and the toggle being in
the up position doesn't mean that anything is "ON".

I'm not familiar with 4 way switches, but with 3 way switches there
really is no "OFF" position like you have with ordinary switches. With
3 way switches, you have two different "ON" positions where the switch
sends power down one conductor or another depending on the toggle
position, but no "OFF" position. But, in that case, toggle down doesn't
mean the light is off since whether or not electricity flows depends on
the position of BOTH three way switches, not just the position of one
three way switch.


4way switches are installed anywhere on the traveler pair between the
two 3way switches. You need two 3way switches to make a circuit with the
power coming in at one 3way switch and the fixture connected at the
other 3way switch. The position of the toggle on one 3way switch feeds
power to or selects which wire in the traveler pair the fixture is
connected to. 4way switches can be installed anywhere on the traveler
pair between the two 3way switches since the 4way switch is like an X
across the pair and swaps the feed from one wire in the pair to the
other wire in the pair. I found an easy to understand illustrated web
page that will help you. ^_^

http://users.wfu.edu/matthews/course.../switches.html

TDD

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On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 07:10:53 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

I agree completely with the last part of what you said.
So, I still don't understand the talk about re-wiring,
turning switches upside down, etc. I think we agree it
would only "fix" the problem until another switch position
was changed.


I suspect he wants both switches "same" to mean "off", so they can
both be down when off -- presumably if he's in a situation where he's
about to turn the light off and end up with them both up, he'd run
over and flip the other one instead. Sort of defeats the purpose of
the 3/4-way switches, but to each his own; my wife made me flip one of
our 3-ways because it bugged her that "different" was off, so you
could never have both down with the light off. She can deal with the
fact that "on" requires one up and one down (which will be true for OP
also), but this light isn't on very often.

Josh
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When we lived in Europe courtesy of Uncle Sam all our switches were push buttons that toggled a change of state relay. There seemed to be no limit to the number of switches. It was very convenient to be able to turn the bedroom light on from the door, and off from the bed, and on from the desk, etc.

When you pressed the switch you heard a big clunk from the panel in the hallway.


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On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 10:10:53 AM UTC-4, wrote:
So, I still don't understand the talk about re-wiring,
turning switches upside down, etc. I think we agree it
would only "fix" the problem until another switch position
was changed.


It's not so complicated as you all are making it.

He simply wants the lights to be OFF when all four switches are in the down position.

In other words, if you run down the hall and flip all four switches to the down position, the lights will always end up OFF.

With an even number of switches, you will always have an even number of switches in a certain position with the lights off. Either four down, two down, or four up.
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I believe he wants the lights to be off when all the switches are in the down position. Normally can be downe by just removing the switch and turning it 180deg and putting it back in the box.


No, it can't be done. Have you used a multi-way switch, eg 3-way?
That uses just two switches, but the system AFAIK is the same as with
his 5 way. With a 3-way, with switch A, whether the light is on or off
when switch A is up or down depends on the position of switch B. You
can turn them upside down all you want, it does not change that. As soon
as someone moves switch B, then the operation of switch A reverses again.







But it sounds like his wires are a bit short for that.



Frankly there is not much point to it anyway as the whole reason you have multiple switches is so you can turn the lights on or off from any of the locations. You enter the hall at one end in the dark so you turn the light on. When you exit the other end you turn the light off. Now you have two switches in the up position but the lights are off.


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On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 3:35:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 10:10:53 AM UTC-4, wrote:

So, I still don't understand the talk about re-wiring,


turning switches upside down, etc. I think we agree it


would only "fix" the problem until another switch position


was changed.




It's not so complicated as you all are making it.



He simply wants the lights to be OFF when all four switches are in the down position.



In other words, if you run down the hall and flip all four switches to the down position, the lights will always end up OFF.



I never saw him saying anything even close to that. And
I can't imagine that it would make much sense. He said he
had 4 switches controlling a hallway light. Why on earth
would you need to run down the hall and check each switch?
All you need do is look if the light is on or off and then
hit the one switch located where you are exiting the hall.




With an even number of switches, you will always have an even number of switches in a certain position with the lights off. Either four down, two down, or four up.


Which of course means you can't do what he wants to do.
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On 6/18/2013 11:36 AM, harry wrote:
On Jun 18, 4:03 pm, wrote:
On 6/18/2013 7:03 AM, wrote:



But I see in another post that you want to see the
switch position to tell if it's on or off. These use
a push paddle type of system, so there is no toggle
switch to look at. It might have an LED indicator
though that shows when it's on. Not sure about
that. Probably does though, because if you
have 6 of these Lutron dimmers it would be good to
know at each one that somebody has turned the
light on. When I'm back at the house I will check for
you.


Along the lines of "LED indicator", I believe an old thread had a 3-way
switch with a pilot light. There was a resistor from each traveler to a
common point, with the pilot light from the common point to the neutral.
The common point would be 120V with the lights off and 60V with lights
(incandescent) on. Could do the same thing with a 4-way, and the
manufacturer probably did. (Switch lights up with the lights off.)


Actually switch lights up with the lights on.

Another variation of pilot light at the switch uses a neon light between
the travelers. A neon light is used because it operates at very low
current. Switched lights probably have to be incandescent. Switch lights
up when the lights off. I believe these are available in 3-way and 4-way
switches.


Can't do what the OP wants - multiple control positions with switch that
turned the light on in the up position. Actually you could by wiring all
single pole switches in parallel and the switch(es) that are 'up' turned
the light on, but not a useful solution.

Closest may center off, momentary contact up and down switches, as in
your post, where you don't have 'chaotic' random up and down switch
positions.

Lots of descriptions of 3-way, 4-way switches on the internet which the
OP should look at if he hasn't figured out how his switches work.


The only way it can be done is to control the light with a device
similar to a motor starter with multiple start/stop buttons.


Probably still available is a low voltage relay system that uses center
off switches with momentary up for on and down for off.

There was also a low voltage scheme with a push button and a relay that
changed state, as in TimR's post.
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On 6/18/2013 11:40 AM, harry wrote:
On Jun 18, 4:33 pm, wrote:
Robert:

I'm thinking that your best bet might be to simply replace your 4 way
switches with ones that have either lighted toggles or toggles of a
different colour than the rest of the switches in each "bank" of
switches. That will at least set them apart visually, so you're brain
recognizes that those switches are different, and the toggle being in
the up position doesn't mean that anything is "ON".

I'm not familiar with 4 way switches, but with 3 way switches there
really is no "OFF" position like you have with ordinary switches. With
3 way switches, you have two different "ON" positions where the switch
sends power down one conductor or another depending on the toggle
position, but no "OFF" position. But, in that case, toggle down doesn't
mean the light is off since whether or not electricity flows depends on
the position of BOTH three way switches, not just the position of one
three way switch.

--
nestork


This is how they are wired. Beware, different terminology to USA.

http://www.lightwiring.co.uk/tag/int...switch-wiring/


The second 4-way circuit is kind of like a California 3-way with a 4-way
switch added. A California 3-way is very useful in very limited
applications. Harry's circuit does not have the useful features of a
California 3-way.

A simple 3-way is easy to troubleshoot. IMHO this is a monstrosity that
is difficult to troubleshoot and has no advantages over a simple 3-way.



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On Jun 19, 6:33*am, bud-- wrote:
On 6/18/2013 11:36 AM, harry wrote:





On Jun 18, 4:03 pm, *wrote:
On 6/18/2013 7:03 AM, wrote:


But I see in another post that you want to see the
switch position to tell if it's on or off. *These use
a push paddle type of system, so there is no toggle
switch to look at. * It might have an LED indicator
though that shows when it's on. * Not sure about
that. Probably does though, because if you
have 6 of these Lutron dimmers it would be good to
know at each one that somebody has turned the
light on. *When I'm back at the house I will check for
you.


Along the lines of "LED indicator", I believe an old thread had a 3-way
switch with a pilot light. There was a resistor from each traveler to a
common point, with the pilot light from the common point to the neutral.
The common point would be 120V with the lights off and 60V with lights
(incandescent) on. Could do the same thing with a 4-way, and the
manufacturer probably did. (Switch lights up with the lights off.)


Actually switch lights up with the lights on.

Another variation of pilot light at the switch uses a neon light between
the travelers. A neon light is used because it operates at very low
current. Switched lights probably have to be incandescent. Switch lights
up when the lights off. I believe these are available in 3-way and 4-way
switches.

Can't do what the OP wants - multiple control positions with switch that
turned the light on in the up position. Actually you could by wiring all
single pole switches in parallel and the switch(es) that are 'up' turned
the light on, but not a useful solution.


Closest may center off, momentary contact up and down switches, as in
your post, where you don't have 'chaotic' random up and down switch
positions.


Lots of descriptions of 3-way, 4-way switches on the internet which the
OP should look at if he hasn't figured out how his switches work.


The only way it can be done is to control the light with a device
similar to a motor starter with multiple start/stop buttons.


Probably still available is a low voltage relay system that uses center
off switches with momentary up for on and down for off.

There was also a low voltage scheme with a push button and a relay that
changed state, as in TimR's post.


I've been pondering the idea of some relay logic combined and the
'main' ON/OFF relay in the attic. Sounds great. Except, I'm back to
the problem of turning ON/OFF only the correct switch when faced with
a bank of four switches. Worse, sometimes the light I want to turn
off isn't even controlled by this rack of switches. Oh, well, at
least if I can go around, turn all the switches to a known OFF
position, then in the middle of the night when I wish to turn off the
light I just turned on, it's obvious, because that light switch is the
only light switch in the whole rack that is in what looks like ON.
Thus, I don't turn ON/OFF a whole series looking to turn off that
single light. [Yeah, I know, memorize them, but this house is large,
has lots of multi switch panels, and sommme light swtich positions in
the rack are either NOT consistent, or plainly wrong location - which
I' in the process of changing.] hmmm, I'd need a small indicator that
illuminates at night when the light is OFF to show you the switch to
turn ON. but if another switch turn on the light... maybe two
indicators at each switch. arggg! wait, if the indicator is OFF when
the light is ON, that will suffice. Just hit the switch that is NOT
lit and the light goes out and of course the indicator then comes ON.
Nice feature. Although I'm not a fan of tiny little light dots around
my bedroom walls [approx 30 by 50 ft and some 15 light switches] it
could be made to work.

From all the replies there's not been much sympathy for the confusion
3,4,5-way switches can cause. I agree, if there's a single switch
controlling the light set, not a biggie, don't care about up or down
position, but when you have light switch panels containing 4 and
sometimes 5 switches it can be a bit daunting when you're half
asleep. and don't want to exercise every frigging light in the room
trying to find the right one.

Surprisingly, with a lot of switches running one set of lights,
swapping has been far easier than expected. The four conductor
switches that provide the X Cross [you can stack 20 of these switches
if you wanted to] are clearly labeled with two IN and two OUT and a
red and black wire to a single 'cable' goes to either IN or OUT.
Sadly, the switch manufacturers are not consistent in where on their
switches the IN and OUT's are located. So have to pay a bit of
attention. So far, with a lot of switches running a single light
section all I've had to do is swap either the IN or the OUT wire side
and done. Plus, with 14 Awg the switch wiring is not disturbed too
much so the switch goes right back in the box after the change.

The really difficult one has been to find the right wires to swap on
the 'simple' 2 switch controller set up. They only have 3 wires and
it's not obvious which two to switch. black, black, red for example.
I know one is common and I swap the other two, but... I actually had
to use an ohmmeter to find out on one switch and was VERY surprised as
to the two to swap. Didn't look right from the physical locations on
the switch, but worked out.
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On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 08:22:37 -0700 (PDT), Robert Macy
wrote:

On Jun 19, 6:33*am, bud-- wrote:
On 6/18/2013 11:36 AM, harry wrote:





On Jun 18, 4:03 pm, *wrote:
On 6/18/2013 7:03 AM, wrote:


But I see in another post that you want to see the
switch position to tell if it's on or off. *These use
a push paddle type of system, so there is no toggle
switch to look at. * It might have an LED indicator
though that shows when it's on. * Not sure about
that. Probably does though, because if you
have 6 of these Lutron dimmers it would be good to
know at each one that somebody has turned the
light on. *When I'm back at the house I will check for
you.


Along the lines of "LED indicator", I believe an old thread had a 3-way
switch with a pilot light. There was a resistor from each traveler to a
common point, with the pilot light from the common point to the neutral.
The common point would be 120V with the lights off and 60V with lights
(incandescent) on. Could do the same thing with a 4-way, and the
manufacturer probably did. (Switch lights up with the lights off.)


Actually switch lights up with the lights on.

Another variation of pilot light at the switch uses a neon light between
the travelers. A neon light is used because it operates at very low
current. Switched lights probably have to be incandescent. Switch lights
up when the lights off. I believe these are available in 3-way and 4-way
switches.

Can't do what the OP wants - multiple control positions with switch that
turned the light on in the up position. Actually you could by wiring all
single pole switches in parallel and the switch(es) that are 'up' turned
the light on, but not a useful solution.


Closest may center off, momentary contact up and down switches, as in
your post, where you don't have 'chaotic' random up and down switch
positions.


Lots of descriptions of 3-way, 4-way switches on the internet which the
OP should look at if he hasn't figured out how his switches work.


The only way it can be done is to control the light with a device
similar to a motor starter with multiple start/stop buttons.


Probably still available is a low voltage relay system that uses center
off switches with momentary up for on and down for off.

There was also a low voltage scheme with a push button and a relay that
changed state, as in TimR's post.


I've been pondering the idea of some relay logic combined and the
'main' ON/OFF relay in the attic. Sounds great. Except, I'm back to
the problem of turning ON/OFF only the correct switch when faced with
a bank of four switches. Worse, sometimes the light I want to turn
off isn't even controlled by this rack of switches. Oh, well, at
least if I can go around, turn all the switches to a known OFF
position, then in the middle of the night when I wish to turn off the
light I just turned on, it's obvious, because that light switch is the
only light switch in the whole rack that is in what looks like ON.
Thus, I don't turn ON/OFF a whole series looking to turn off that
single light. [Yeah, I know, memorize them, but this house is large,
has lots of multi switch panels, and sommme light swtich positions in
the rack are either NOT consistent, or plainly wrong location - which
I' in the process of changing.] hmmm, I'd need a small indicator that
illuminates at night when the light is OFF to show you the switch to
turn ON. but if another switch turn on the light... maybe two
indicators at each switch. arggg! wait, if the indicator is OFF when
the light is ON, that will suffice. Just hit the switch that is NOT
lit and the light goes out and of course the indicator then comes ON.
Nice feature. Although I'm not a fan of tiny little light dots around
my bedroom walls [approx 30 by 50 ft and some 15 light switches] it
could be made to work.

From all the replies there's not been much sympathy for the confusion
3,4,5-way switches can cause. I agree, if there's a single switch
controlling the light set, not a biggie, don't care about up or down
position, but when you have light switch panels containing 4 and
sometimes 5 switches it can be a bit daunting when you're half
asleep. and don't want to exercise every frigging light in the room
trying to find the right one.

Surprisingly, with a lot of switches running one set of lights,
swapping has been far easier than expected. The four conductor
switches that provide the X Cross [you can stack 20 of these switches
if you wanted to] are clearly labeled with two IN and two OUT and a
red and black wire to a single 'cable' goes to either IN or OUT.
Sadly, the switch manufacturers are not consistent in where on their
switches the IN and OUT's are located. So have to pay a bit of
attention. So far, with a lot of switches running a single light
section all I've had to do is swap either the IN or the OUT wire side
and done. Plus, with 14 Awg the switch wiring is not disturbed too
much so the switch goes right back in the box after the change.

The really difficult one has been to find the right wires to swap on
the 'simple' 2 switch controller set up. They only have 3 wires and
it's not obvious which two to switch. black, black, red for example.
I know one is common and I swap the other two, but... I actually had
to use an ohmmeter to find out on one switch and was VERY surprised as
to the two to swap. Didn't look right from the physical locations on
the switch, but worked out.


https://www.google.com/search?q=Ptou...l=np&source=hp

Get one of these
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On Jun 19, 9:16*am, Metspitzer wrote:
...snip...

https://www.google.com/search?q=Ptou...8&aq=t&rls=org...

Get one of these


Thanks, will be useful for labeling all the house TV coax, cat-5, and
security system cabling! Security system alone is daunting with 8
cameras and 20+ individual lines. Today is easy, but working a month
from now is not so easy - can't remember what is what.

For the light switches that still leaves three problems.
1. Doesn't look very elegant.
2. How to name them and still know what the labels mean
3. This is a bit more difficult to overcome, adhesives don't stick
well, or long, here. Could seal with clear coat of something, but now
we're talking the first time the switch panels get cleaned, ALL that
comes off, single wipe.



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On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 10:26:11 -0700 (PDT), Robert Macy
wrote:

On Jun 19, 9:16*am, Metspitzer wrote:
...snip...

https://www.google.com/search?q=Ptou...8&aq=t&rls=org...

Get one of these


Thanks, will be useful for labeling all the house TV coax, cat-5, and
security system cabling! Security system alone is daunting with 8
cameras and 20+ individual lines. Today is easy, but working a month
from now is not so easy - can't remember what is what.

For the light switches that still leaves three problems.
1. Doesn't look very elegant.
2. How to name them and still know what the labels mean
3. This is a bit more difficult to overcome, adhesives don't stick
well, or long, here. Could seal with clear coat of something, but now
we're talking the first time the switch panels get cleaned, ALL that
comes off, single wipe.

If you want it really professional, you can have the labels etched in
the covers.



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Default Wiring for multiple control [4 switches control one set of lights] light switch !!!

On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 10:26:11 -0700 (PDT), Robert Macy
wrote:

On Jun 19, 9:16*am, Metspitzer wrote:
...snip...

https://www.google.com/search?q=Ptou...8&aq=t&rls=org...

Get one of these


Thanks, will be useful for labeling all the house TV coax, cat-5, and
security system cabling! Security system alone is daunting with 8
cameras and 20+ individual lines. Today is easy, but working a month
from now is not so easy - can't remember what is what.

For the light switches that still leaves three problems.
1. Doesn't look very elegant.
2. How to name them and still know what the labels mean
3. This is a bit more difficult to overcome, adhesives don't stick
well, or long, here. Could seal with clear coat of something, but now
we're talking the first time the switch panels get cleaned, ALL that
comes off, single wipe.


Btw You can also pick one color for security, one color for network
and one color for CATV.

You can also take a photo of your switch plates and then type on the
photo the location of the switch and the label you want etched.
(mspaint will do)

Or you can just write the info on the back of the cover when you take
them off. (sharpie)

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Default Wiring for multiple control [4 switches control one set of lights] light switch !!!

On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 10:26:11 -0700 (PDT), Robert Macy
wrote:

On Jun 19, 9:16*am, Metspitzer wrote:
...snip...

https://www.google.com/search?q=Ptou...8&aq=t&rls=org...

Get one of these


Thanks, will be useful for labeling all the house TV coax, cat-5, and
security system cabling! Security system alone is daunting with 8
cameras and 20+ individual lines. Today is easy, but working a month
from now is not so easy - can't remember what is what.

For the light switches that still leaves three problems.


BTW Captain Kirk and his team managed to Trek the universe without
having their command console marked. I don't know why you can
navigate a house.

1. Doesn't look very elegant.
2. How to name them and still know what the labels mean
3. This is a bit more difficult to overcome, adhesives don't stick
well, or long, here. Could seal with clear coat of something, but now
we're talking the first time the switch panels get cleaned, ALL that
comes off, single wipe.


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Default Wiring for multiple control [4 switches control one set oflights] light switch !!!

On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 10:08:56 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 3:35:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:
In other words, if you run down the hall and flip all four switches to the down position, the lights will always end up OFF.


I never saw him saying anything even close to that. And
I can't imagine that it would make much sense. He said he
had 4 switches controlling a hallway light. Why on earth
would you need to run down the hall and check each switch?
All you need do is look if the light is on or off and then
hit the one switch located where you are exiting the hall.


Obviously you weren't reading carefully because that's EXACTLY what he said.

Nobody's checking each switch. He just wants the "home position" to be all four switches DOWN, and light OFF. It's a form of OCD.

With an even number of switches, you will always have an even number of switches in a certain position with the lights off. Either four down, two down, or four up.


Which of course means you can't do what he wants to do.


Yes, he can. All he wants is, "All four switches DOWN, lights OFF."

What you keep harping on and on about is "All four switches MUST be down for the lights to be OFF." That is not what he wants.

Clearly he was able to achieve it because he replied and stated such. All it required was swapping the wires on the first switch.
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Default Wiring for multiple control [4 switches control one set of lights]light switch !!!

On 6/19/2013 1:33 PM, Metspitzer wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 10:26:11 -0700 (PDT), Robert Macy
wrote:

On Jun 19, 9:16 am, Metspitzer wrote:
...snip...

https://www.google.com/search?q=Ptou...8&aq=t&rls=org...

Get one of these


Thanks, will be useful for labeling all the house TV coax, cat-5, and
security system cabling! Security system alone is daunting with 8
cameras and 20+ individual lines. Today is easy, but working a month
from now is not so easy - can't remember what is what.

For the light switches that still leaves three problems.


BTW Captain Kirk and his team managed to Trek the universe without
having their command console marked. I don't know why you can
navigate a house.


Hey, The Next Generation had touch screens that beeped whenever they
touched them. ^_^

TDD

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